Marissa is joined by two co-hosts - her daughters, Sloane and Delaney! - to chat with Natasha Wing about her NIGHT BEFORE picture book series. We talked about how the standard length of picture books has gotten shorter over time, which both challenges writers and encourages tighter, stronger narratives; some techniques for adapting a well-known story for a contemporary audience; the amount of time it takes to write a picture book (and how deadlines are the universal motivator); and how illustrators bring new perspectives to the text, which can expand the story in wonderful and unexpected ways.
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa is joined by two co-hosts - her daughters, Sloane and Delaney! - to chat with Natasha Wing about her NIGHT BEFORE picture book series. We talked about how the standard length of picture books has gotten shorter over time, which both challenges writers and encourages tighter, stronger narratives; some techniques for adapting a well-known story for a contemporary audience; the amount of time it takes to write a picture book (and how deadlines are the universal motivator); and how illustrators bring new perspectives to the text, which can expand the story in wonderful and unexpected ways.
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
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Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I'm your host, Marissa Meyer. And today I happened to be joined by two special co-hosts for the very first time, please welcome my beautiful daughters. Uh, would you girls like to introduce yourselves and your buddies that you had here? How Ashley, and she's a fingerling, we'll move her and talk to you and also move your head. And this is my favorite things to eat is bubble gum. And he is a monkey fingerling. Is that right? So the girls are joining me today because this is our first episode in which we get to talk to a very prolific picture book author. And as a family, we have been reading a bunch of books from her series and we have all loved them. So I thought it would be fun for the girls to come on the show and ask some of their own questions. Um, it just so happens that that is the thing that's making me happy today. Getting to have my girls join me, even though right now, they're both acting very shy and nervous, but they'll warm up. Um, so girls, I, I usually start every episode by talking about one thing that's making me happy. Would you like to share one thing? That's making you happy? And so that's what makes me happy, but I also like mommy reading aloud. Delaney. What's one thing that's making you happy today. Are you going to be drying when mommy lets you have a break from this podcast? Yeah. All right. And we are of course so happy to be talking to today's guest. She is the bestselling author of dozens of books for kids and young readers, including plenty of non-fiction books and biographies, a number of joke books, but perhaps most notably she's the author of the night before series her latest release the night before the wedding just came out earlier this month, please welcome Natasha wing.
Speaker 3:Hello everybody. And welcome girls.
Speaker 2:You say hi, it's ready. We practiced a couple of times before and they were much louder. They've gotten shy all of this
Speaker 3:As a very shy kid when I was your age. I understand. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. They go through periods when something is brand new, then they get quiet and introverted. But then as soon as they get going, that all goes away. Doesn't it.
Speaker 3:As soon as you shut off the, um, yes,
Speaker 2:No, they'll be bouncing off the walls. And how did we do mom? That was great. Okay. So Natasha, as I said, you are my very first picture book author, and I am super excited to talk to you about your books and your process. Um, so before we get to the girls questions, why don't we start with you telling listeners a little bit about your night before series and kind of what is the premise for it?
Speaker 3:Okay, well, um, the night before series is based on the classic the night before Christmas and it came, that story came out in 1823. So in a couple of years it's going to be 200 years old. Oh my gosh. Yes. And, um, so it's been around for generations and that's what I was tapping into with this series is that people were familiar with, um, a beloved story and I wanted to spring board off of that and apply it to other holidays and other big events in kids' lives, you know, like losing their first tooth or going to kindergarten. But that is the book that inspired the entire series. Um, it originally
Speaker 2:Her hand, you want to comment on that tooth comment? Don't you go ahead, honey. The last one. Oh,
Speaker 3:Oh, Oh, you're at the age. That's why, yeah.
Speaker 2:You have your, your night before the tooth fairy book and it has been one of the favorites. I lost a tooth, but I don't have another wiggly one yet. Oh
Speaker 3:Well there's, you're going to lose all of them. Eventually the two Perry will be coming to visit again. So then, so this series actually the interesting part is that it was only going to be a one-up story. And my first one, the night before Easter, I wrote because I love Easter. So when I was younger, my very first, um, stuffed animal was the Easter bunny and um, I was named boiling. It was actually a little white bunny. And then when I was in my twenties, I had a lot beard rabbit, so I love bunnies and S and Eastern springtime. So when I thought about this idea of being excited to be, um, anticipating the arrival of the Easter bunny, it felt like the night before Christmas to me, like waiting for Santa Claus. So that's where I thought of the idea of just working off of that structure of the story, but just updating it and twisting it to the holiday. And, um, it was only going to be one book and then it did well. And my, um, editor Jane O'Connor is, uh, actually, she's still my editor after all these years. That's unusual. It's very unusual. And the good thing about her is she's also a writer. She wrote all the fancy Nancy books. And so
Speaker 2:We love fancy Nancy. That's my reading, but yeah, and I love,
Speaker 3:I love the, um, her enthusiasm and her character. So Jane is my partner in as far as like trying to figure out what story to do next and figuring out, you know, what the storyline should be. So it's really great working with her because she is a writer and she like gets the process. So, um, Jane was very astute in seeing that this one little Easter story could possibly turn into a series and that's exactly what happened. So it was because of her that it grew and grew and grew. And now there's like 26 or seven of them now.
Speaker 2:Oh, I was going to ask how many, because the, the back page shows a bunch of covers. It's amazing how much it's grown and how many books are that you've done now in this series. Yeah.
Speaker 3:The covers keep getting smaller and smaller as we keep adding new.
Speaker 2:Yeah. In the back there
Speaker 3:It's 24. So then you count the book that is in your hands as the next one. So that's 25. And then I have the night before the dentist coming out this year and then with the artists right now is the night before second grade,
Speaker 2:Second grade is coming up. Girls that's the night before first grade. Cause you girls are going into first grade later this year. Oh, I thought the timing will be perfect then I know. So speaking of Sloan, you had a question about this book the night before first grade. Do you remember what your question was? Oh, you know, I, every time
Speaker 3:Since I was younger and you know, you talk with your girlfriends about, you know, when I grow up, I'm going to marry, you know, this kind of guy and with blue eyes and Brown, black hair and stuff like that. I want so many kids, blah, blah, blah. And I just remember always saying I wanted twins and I just thought it was so cool. I thought it would be so cool to have, you know, two kids at the same time. And they would like be best buddies and understand each other. I just liked the idea of twins. So I never had children, unfortunately, but, um, I still kind of held onto the idea of wishing I had twins. And so I tried to get him into a story and I thought this one was a really, um, good story to introduce him because it's like a funny, um, twist to the two girls being separated. But, but they both made friends with twins. And then when they got together, they're like, Oh my gosh, you know, our friends are friends, new friends are twins. And then, um, my sister's name is Nina. So I ran it with Tina, which is my aunt's name. So everything just kind of fit together.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that. And I thought it was a really fun twist. Not only because of course the girls are twins. And so whenever we see twins, we get really excited. Uh, but it was just so clever that the way that, that story kind of worked out that neat little surprise at the end. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And that's what Jane and I always try to do is we, we want to have like a little fun little twist at the end, just so you know, cause you're familiar with the night before Christmas, so you know how it's going to end. So this one, I wanted to have like a little fun twist and so the twins were it. So that's cool that you recognize that and you can relate to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I thought the little twist at the end of the tooth fairy one was also super, super cute. Yeah. Go ahead. Sloan. You had a question, um, the night before,
Speaker 3:Well that one, since I live in Colorado, it snows a lot and um, the kids do get a lot of snow days at school here and it could snow from October till may. And um, so I was just thinking of all those kids and who wanted to have a few days off of school. And I remember when I grew up in Connecticut when, um, we had snow days, Oh my gosh, it was so much fun. And we would just pray that the snowplow wouldn't come and clear the streets so that we could make snowman and go sledding. So that's where the idea for the snow day came from.
Speaker 2:It is one of those bright childhood memories that always seemed super magical. Um, I grew up in Tacoma, Washington, and we would only get snow a couple days out of the year. And then it would like immediately rain and turn slushie. So we were lucky if we got one or two school days usually. And so it was just this, you know, so much excitement like isn't going to happen. Is it going to happen? And then to wake up and see the world all white and pristine. I just remember that feeling so clearly. Yeah. And that, that is the thing about snow. It's so magical. And um, my birthday's in February, so I'm a winter baby. And so I, I loved having snow on my birthday and I would actually pray for it and wish for it so that we can have a snow day and my birthday on the same day. No kidding. What's your birthday? February seven. Nice. I am February 19th best month. I know, but I think there's like particularly bad months, but I think of all the fun stuff in February though. You've got Groundhog day. You've got Chinese new year or lunar new year Valentine's Valentine's day. President's day, leap year day. All right. Delaney. Did you want to go ahead and ask one of your questions? How did you, Oh, well, I wish I could take credit for that because, um, I have a secret desire to be an illustrator of one of my own books someday. So I am practicing doing watercolors, but I just write the words. So there's another person who does the illustrations and it's up to that person to take my words and trying to figure out how am I going to make the characters look, how am I going to make the clothes look and the setting. So if I have to give all the credit to my illustrator, and then you also wanted to ask about inspiration. I don't know that that's a real question, honey. I think you wanted to ask, where does your inspiration come from? Okay. For the night before series, you mean? Or just any book? Oh my gosh. Well, they come from all different places. So the night before series obviously comes from the night before Christmas. That was my inspiration for those, but I've also done some non-fiction books and um, one of them is called an eye for color. And Joseph Albert actually used to be a neighbor of mine when I lived in Connecticut. So I remember, um, seeing him walk up and down our street with, um, his little bra on and we'd always say hello. And then years later when I was in college, I went to an art gallery and I saw his name next to a piece of art. And I'm like, I know that guy, I used to live down the street from him. Yeah. So it was all the curiosity of how did he get so famous that his paintings are in this museum? So I did some research about that and other inspirations come from dreams like, um, my sister and I used to share a bedroom on the second floor of our house in Connecticut. And I had a wild imagination and back then I loved dinosaurs, but I also, they are just so cool. I wanted to be a paleontologist actually and dig up dinosaurs at one time in my life. But, um, what happened is I realized I didn't like getting my fingers dirty, so I didn't want to work at a dig. Seems like a lot of hard tedious work when you really think about, yeah, it's all like, Oh my gosh, they just started yesterday. And today they found bones, but like getting my hands, my hands messy. I know how you feel. Get muddy and dirty. No problem. But Sloan was, you are ready to get cleaned up immediately
Speaker 3:Two blocks from the beach and I'd have, I'd get Sandy a lot too. And the same thing as like, Oh, get that sand off my hand, wipe him off.
Speaker 2:All right, girls, I can tell you are getting antsy. So you go color for a little while and I'll call you back when I need you. Okay. Good job girls. Yeah. Good job. Thanks. Um, thank you for letting for, uh, letting me experiment on you, by the way, with me today,
Speaker 3:When I do school visits with kindergarteners, you have to be ready for everything
Speaker 2:That is true, so true. But they do ask fun questions at this age, things that you wouldn't think of.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, so I want to know, so now we're going to get a little bit more serious nitty gritty author talk. Um, so I feel like writing picture books is one of the most difficult writing forms out there. Um, and maybe because that's because I've tried and failed simple, right. Because they're so sure it's like, it's less than 500 words. How hard could it be? And yet it is actually really difficult trying to distill a story into so little space. So do you feel that way? Do you feel like picture books are one of the most difficult forms of writing or is it something that kind of comes naturally to you?
Speaker 3:Well, it's the form I've been doing since the beginning. So I don't think of it as difficult. The, the time it got probably a little bit more difficult is when publishers started to say, we want 500 words or less because before, like I never did, I never did grade leveling. I never did word counts. I never paid attention to those things. I just wrote the story. And then, you know, of course through my critique group, we would cut back here and there and then, you know, whittle it down. So I never put those restrictions on myself. But now when we start hearing more that they need five words or less, it's like, Oh no, the publishers wanted 500 words or less. So then that's where I was feeling a little bit more restricted and, and having to be picky about what words I would leave in and then which sections or scenes I would take out. So, um, it's hard in that you have to keep distilling my bias, but by distilling you get more to the core of it. And then once you just present a real simple sentence that you don't tell the illustrator, he was wearing a blue coat and he had blonde hair and he spoke a certain way. You're gonna let the illustrator like open up their talent and let their imagination soar. And then they might go ahead and add their own little, um, subplot or sub storyline in the illustrations. That'll add more depth. So it's a little give and take. And, you know, as the writer who starts off the whole process, typically, you know, by creating the story, um, it's hard at first to give it up. But then when you see what comes back in the illustrator's interpretation, you're just like, wow, I never would have thought that. So you have this respect for the creative process that it's going to be even better than what you imagined,
Speaker 2:How much collaboration happens with the illustrator. Like when you finish the script and you pass it off to the illustrator, are you done or does it ever come back to you now that there's some artwork involved and then you continue to tweak and make changes? Like how, how does that process work? Um,
Speaker 3:When I started my career, I was pretty much left out and I, um, they would just have the, the, um, author write the words, then they'd find the artists and the artists would do their thing. And then I would get a book. I would never see anything in between. Um, but as I have been in the, you know, in the business longer and have more relationships with editors, um, sometimes I get asked my input on illustrators, like, you know, rank one to three, which ones you like the best kind of thing. They may not pick the person, but at least they kind of can see what I'm thinking. Um, and other times with the night before ours, I'll get to see, you know, the in-between editing where they've already page things out. So I get to see the art notes and where they're going with the idea. Um, occasionally I'll see some dummies, so I'm a little bit involved, but a lot of time, a lot of the time, what they would rather you do is just, um, kick back and let the illustrator do their thing. Unless there's something glaring. Like there was one incident in the night before Thanksgiving where I don't know where the illustrator live, but the grass in the trees were green during the fall. And so I'm like, well, you know, not where I live, they're kind of out. So she had to alter the color of everything on those pages, but, um, you know, little stuff like that I'm able to catch, but typically I'm not part of the
Speaker 2:Interesting, so you've now written so many books. You're, I don't know how many, I assume decades into your career. Do you feel like your process has changed over time or, and, or do you feel like it's gotten easier to write a picture book? Do you need to go through fewer revisions, fewer edits as, as you've now written so many, or is every book kind of its own unique challenge? Yes. Every book is its own unique challenge outside of the night. So the night before we're pretty much tapped into a structure. Um, we, we have an idea of where it's going to go. So those to me come very easily and I love the rhyme. Um, I tend to think of it as music. So, you know, during the day I'll just start, like,
Speaker 3:I mean, you know, he, we, she, you know, just little words in my mind, so it's almost like I'm doing a little rap or something. So with those, you know, I, I'm pretty much like I know what I'm doing and I know how long it's going to take me to do it. Um, but when it comes to non-fiction or the other fiction, they all are, you know, kind of a creature amongst themselves. And especially with nonfiction, boy, I just love to do research and find those little nuggets and I want to get them in my story, but they don't always belong in the story, you know? So then I take them out and then my editor or my agent will say, well, I need more information here. I'm like, but I just took it out of there. Now I'm going to flip back and now you want me to dig it out and then put it back. I'm having more difficulty with the nonfiction, just because of the, the wealth of information typically I can, um, play with. But it's all about finding a thread, um, and just like kind of simplifying the for nonfiction. So I think what's gotten a little bit easier is I'm trying to, um, look at the projects that I'm working on. And instead of like, instead of being excited about everything that I ever think of and every idea that comes to my head, I'm trying to like whittle them out before I start working on them. So I don't waste time on them.
Speaker 2:Oh, that is a good skill to develop.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, it's so hard because for me, the idea is the most, my most favorite part, you know, is just getting that exciting light bulb moment. And then my mind, you know, carries on and kind of plays it out. Um, but at some point I have to look at it and go, is this really what I want to say? Is this really me? Or it might just trying to kind of push a concept that's not working. So it's hard to give those.
Speaker 2:Yeah. About how long does it take you to write one from beginning to end?
Speaker 3:Well, like the night before is I typically have three to six months, but don't, you don't tell Jane my editor, sometimes I just procrastinate a little bit and then I use that energy of, Oh my God, I have a deadline. I need to do this. And that prompts me to get it done.
Speaker 2:You're hardly the only writer who works that way.
Speaker 3:I mean, that, that is a way to get going.
Speaker 2:Nothing motivates quite like a deadline.
Speaker 3:I know, I know. And you know, I used to work in advertising, so it was all about deadlines and that's what got my spark going. So I'm just kind of applying it to children's books these days. But, um, yeah, so those can take me a month. Um, and then there's a lot of back and forth, you know, after I turned in my draft. Um, but then like a book, like when Jackie saved grand central, that took seven years on
Speaker 2:And off. Oh, wow. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And part of it is putting it down while they're, you know, trying to find an illustrator. And then when they found an illustrator, then the illustrator, you know, would say, well, we don't need these words because I'm going to illustrate that. Can you take that out? But we need to still explain what's going on in this page. So then the back and forth started up again, but that was about seven years in the making.
Speaker 2:So one thing that I loved and was honestly very surprised by in the night before books, I went into them, expecting them to feel very formulaic. Um, because obviously they're all based on the same poem, uh, you know, the night before Christmas. And I was very pleasantly surprised that they don't feel formulaic at all. And everyone very much encapsulates a completely new story, a completely new family protagonists, and they were so sweet and genuine. Do you, is that difficult to accomplish, like, is that something that you're constantly thinking of in doing these reimaginings of the night before Christmas to try to keep it from feeling formulaic, um, or kind of, how do you approach that? Well, what I try to do is pick out certain things about the original night before Christmas that people are familiar with. So the opening line, you know, it was the night before and then whatever. And then I like to have, you know, there's always this scene, um, you know, about the kids nestled, um, nestled in their beds with visions of blank in their heads. So that to me is the most fun part to write. Cause I like, I love to figure out what's, you know, dancing around in their heads. And then there's a couple of things I'd like to tap on. And, but they're not the same things with each book. And I think that's why it doesn't feel like it's all set structure, but what I'm trying to do is just tap back to the original. But then I have to remember this, isn't a classic stories, current story. And so I want to project or, you know, show like here's current traditions of holidays that we do. Like parent busy parents are trying to, you know, fit a holiday in while they're trying to have their regular life too. So I think that's why I like to put in those little twists or little surprises. And that's what keeps it fresh. Do you have a, like a list of mile long of future night before books?
Speaker 3:Well, I I've been, you know, throwing some suggestions towards Jane just to see what her feedback is before I start writing. So some of them have been thumbs up and some thumbs down. Um, and you know, so I'm just waiting. Cause like the night before St. Patrick's day, I asked her, you know, for years, if I can do that and they kept saying, Oh no, it's not that popular in school. And you know, it's more of an adult holiday. So, um, and then, you know, years and years later, I'm like, what about the night before St. Patrick's day? Great. That's a great idea. Let's do it. What am I better selling ones now? So that's funny.
Speaker 2:I have expected that story to end with. And then one day my editor came to me and said, what about St. Patrick's day?
Speaker 3:Yeah. And it's like, huh, I wonder where that idea came from. But you know, I, I do get a lot of, um, fans, I guess you'd call them. Cause, cause they contact me through Amazon or through my website and they'll suggest new ideas like teachers will say, you know, um, I, I love your back to school books, but now I'm teaching second grade and their series ends first grade. What about a second grade? So then I'll run it past Jane and see if that's, you know, something that could work or, you know, I'll just get people writing in and saying, you know, I, I noticed you don't have this holiday or Arbor day or, you know, so it just, um, the idea is just keep going.
Speaker 2:I bet. I bet. No it's impossible. I mean, we sat and talked for a while. Like what, what other days would you girls like to see? Um, in fact, they actually come up with some fun ideas. Hey girls, come here for a second. That's what I'd be interested to pull them away from their coloring now careful with the cord honey. Oh, your coloring is beautiful. She's darling. I wish you could see girls. Do you remember what some of the ideas that you came up with? Like the state fair.
Speaker 3:Oh, that would be fun. Like, cause I, of course one of my favorite parts of the state fair is going to see the bunny rabbits.
Speaker 2:Oh God. So that's my favorite part. What's your favorite part of the state? Fair. Oh yeah. How about,
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well that would be a good one too. Cause I think in September there's actually like grandparent day holidays for everything. So
Speaker 2:I could tie it in a month for everything like there's doughnut month and possibilities are endless. And then once
Speaker 3:I'm done that I could do the day after. Right.
Speaker 2:So, all right. So we are going to wrap this up now with our happy writer bonus round first question. What book makes you happy? Oh my gosh. Well, you know,
Speaker 3:Well, I've been writing some joke books lately and I really have fun with those. So I've been reading joke books and I think, you know, just the playoff of words and just the silliness.
Speaker 2:What is your personal mantra?
Speaker 3:Boy, I think it's just keep going. You know, I there's so many times you're gonna be rejected or so many times you're going to start and stop a story and maybe you'll pick it up a couple of years later, but, and there's also times where the pendulum swings. Like now we're looking for fairytales and now we're not looking for fairytales and now we want concept books, but now we don't know. So if you stay in there long enough, you might become current again. So just keep going.
Speaker 2:How do you celebrate an accomplishment?
Speaker 3:Oh, well, before, when I was in a writer's group and we all lived in the same area, now we live all in different States. Although with the pandemic, we got back together over zoom, which I'm, I mean, that's one bonus of the pandemic, but when we were together in a writer's group, whoever sold a manuscript would have to bring the cake.
Speaker 2:Lastly, where can people find you?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Okay. So I've got an Instagram, um, and I have a Pinterest and I also have a face Facebook author page. So it's, I don't know all the addresses off hand, but Natasha wings, author page, I'm on Facebook and I'm pretty, you know, I don't do a lot of, um, platforms. So those are my basic ones.
Speaker 2:Natasha, thank you so much for joining us today. This was so much fun.
Speaker 3:Yes. It was a pleasure. And also to meet your twins. I'm so glad they, they, they had a way to relate to my books through the night before first grade. That's so cool.
Speaker 2:Definitely by fingerlings readers, be sure to check out Natasha's many picture books, including her newest, which we hardly touched on because those are so many things to talk about. Uh, but her newest is the night before the wedding. Of course, we always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore if you can. But if you don't have a local indie, you can also check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast. Until next time please stay healthy and cozy in your bunkers and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit
Speaker 1:[inaudible].