Marissa chats with Ellie Cypher about her debut YA fantasy western - THE GIRL FROM SHADOW SPRINGS - as well as some tips for writing settings that are harsh and barren, and how we can use that setting to mirror the hero's journey; using wildlife documentaries and real-world accounts to bring worlds to life with surprising details and complexity; the concerns that writers face when combining unexpected genres and trying to determine where their story might fit into the market; and developing a unique voice for your first person POV (and how encouraging it is when a protagonist starts speaking to us right away!).
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa chats with Ellie Cypher about her debut YA fantasy western - THE GIRL FROM SHADOW SPRINGS - as well as some tips for writing settings that are harsh and barren, and how we can use that setting to mirror the hero's journey; using wildlife documentaries and real-world accounts to bring worlds to life with surprising details and complexity; the concerns that writers face when combining unexpected genres and trying to determine where their story might fit into the market; and developing a unique voice for your first person POV (and how encouraging it is when a protagonist starts speaking to us right away!).
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
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Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I'm your host, Marissa Meyer. Thanks so much for joining me. One thing, that's making me happy today and I know it's something that not everyone's going to agree with, but that's okay. I am excited for Valentine's day and yeah, I know lots of people hate this holiday, but it has always been one of my favorites. Yes, because I am a romantic at heart, but I also try to think of Valentine's day as that holiday in which we just get to celebrate love. And maybe that's love for a romantic partner. Maybe it's love for your family or your kids or your best friend, uh, whatever it is. I just think that a holiday all about love. Can't be a bad thing. And I'm really looking forward to making some homemade Valentines with the girls this week. On that note, I do have some special Valentine promotions happening right now. So first of all, if you are going to be stuck at home on the 14th, which I think is Sunday, uh, please join me and send your men in. We will be on Instagram, live starting at six o'clock Eastern to talk all things Valentine's day and romance and rom-coms, and I'm really looking forward to it. Also, I am currently hosting a design of Valentine contest. Um, the winner will receive signed copies of both heartless and instant karma. Plus every single person who enters and submits their mailing address will receive a signed Valentine from me. So that contest ends this Wednesday coming up very quickly. So don't dally. All of the details can be found on my Instagram at Marissa Meyer author. And I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with with that I am of course, so happy to be talking to today's guest. She was formally a veterinary equine surgeon and has lived and worked all over the world from New Zealand to Tasmania to the United Kingdom, her debut novel. The girl from shadow Springs comes out tomorrow on February 9th. Please. Welcome Ellie cipher. Hi. Hello. How are you? Good, good, wonderful. I happy to be here. I'm definitely excited. I'm happy to have you. And I got to ask Valentine's day. How do you feel about it? Oh, well, I've been with my husband since we were 17, so yeah, so
Speaker 3:We love it, but we mainly does. Don't do that. I mean, I love it. I love, I love it. I love it.
Speaker 2:No, truly my husband hates it. Um, it's one of his least favorite. The majority of our relationship it's been me like, okay, I know it's not for you, but come on. It's my favorite. You got to do something. Um, and it's taken him a while, but he finally has come around and he tells me he has a gift for me this year. So I'm excited to see what, so I told my daughters that I was going to be talking to a former horse doctor veterinarian. And they want to know if you yourself have horses. That's such a funny question.
Speaker 3:Every, every horse owner asks you a question. Um, I don't have horses right now. I was living in England. Uh, so we, I moved to England for a job and was living in England and then right before the pandemic hit. So, um, I've come back. It's not really a, a great time to pick up some horses, but, um, I did have horses. I did have horses when I was younger, so I had horses growing up and it's wonderful. It's wonderful. I will report back. Um,
Speaker 2:I mean, they, they don't, they're six. Um, so they don't care too much about what it is that I do. But to know that somebody has a connection to horses, like that's really exciting to them.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean, they are, they are, they are the best.
Speaker 2:Yeah. They're a beautiful animal. I know. I don't, I've gone horse riding like maybe three times in my life that I find them quite intimidating, but there's something very majestical about them. Is that a word majestical? I don't think it is majestic,
Speaker 3:But it's like magical and majestic, so yeah.
Speaker 2:True point. It will just stay exactly. Why don't we start with you telling listeners what is the girl from shadow Springs about?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so the girlfriend shadow Springs is my first published novel. So my debut, it is a Y a that Simon and Schuster is pitching on as the true grit meets the remnant, but with magic. So it's a Y fantasy Western, which is full of myth and magic and snow and ice. And it's about vengeance and sisterhood and survival against all odds in a world that's harsh. And I like to think about it the way I've always thought about it, sort of in my head is to grit meets the snow queen, um, sort of retelling. So it has the, it has the fantasy logic of a fairy tale rather than, you know, the fantasy logic of a big Epic fantasy. So Western fairy tale, I see frontier murder vengeance.
Speaker 2:So glad you say that in your heart. It's also part fairy tale because I got super strong snow queen vibes from this book. And also, I don't know if you're familiar with the story East of the sun, West of the moon. Um, but that's one of my favorite fairytales and this had kind of captured the same sort of magical folk tale vibe of that story as well, which I loved, I loved that it was like a Western, but also a fairy tale, which like, those are two genres that I don't know anybody's ever, I shouldn't say nobody's ever done it before because who knows maybe somebody has, but it certainly was new to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, it's definitely, it was, it was that new to me too. I've always loved fantasy. Um, growing up, you know, that sort of what I bread and butter reading a veracious reader as a kid and fantasy, it was always my sort of genre of choice. I find fantasy, um, as a kid. And so I think it just sort of ingrained in me and I always have loved the logic of fairytales. And I think there's always so much room within them too. Cause when you read them when you're a kid and then you read them when you're a teenager, and then you read them with your, when you're an adult they're different every time. And I've always loved that it's consistently different. Um, even though it's the same words. And so I've always had this sort of, this sort of idea that I would love to combine sort of that fantasy and then, but with the fairytales instead. And so it sort of, it sort of pulled together with this voice and this narrator, which was really fun to write.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I bet. And I, we're just going to use that to launch into one of my first questions because the voice is so good in this book and yes, it's Western like, um, and you really capture that from the very beginning, um, with, with Jory from page one, we're in her head and her personality comes across just so distinctly and very rough and tumble, um, you know, very kind of rough around the edges. How did you go about discovering jury's voice and how did you write just the language it's just feels so authentic. Like what were some of your techniques for that?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So this is kind of, it's kind of funny. I've never, I've never believed this is the first sort of the first foray into like a Western frontier. For me, my previous trunk novels have all been much more, you know, um, classically grammatically, correct. I guess you could say. Um, but the reason Jory is the way she is, is the first line. So the answer to what freezes first is the eyes and that line that just appeared. I have no idea where that line came from. It is not fun fact anatomically, correct from a medical standpoint. Um, but it just appeared and then, and it was, and then it was this girl in this image and I, I just needed to know who she was, you know, who would say that, who would be out there thinking that's the first thing? And they're like, Oh yeah, that's what happens. You know? So who is a girl who would be there, standing there thinking about it? It's just, I it's just all came from that first line. And that first image of Jory standing over a dead man on the ice and it just, it hurts his voice, just pour it out of me. And I cannot tell you where it came from. That's an unusual experience for me, but I have never once doubted what she would say in any sense of dialogue, that was the easiest part of the whole book was her voice.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that. I found that very few characters appear that way to me. Like it does happen, but it's a rare and special thing. And, and so you didn't, as far as the voice goes, there was like no huge revisions or like halfway through the draft, you had to go back and be like, Oh, now we're going to use this slang for this. Like it just,
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's true. Yeah. That's just how she spoke and no other characters speak psych her and I'm working on a couple of projects now and no one speaks like that. That's not their girl. Like I think she's just kind of her and it's, it's a very strange and kind of a surreal experience to, to be, I mean, I'm live in Tennessee. So I am definitely surrounded by, um, a lot of, uh, locally, like dialogue or vernacular. Um, and so that probably definitely infused the pros for sure. Um, and then obviously cultural influences, TVs, movies, you know, trigger at the revenue. Those are, you know, big movies, obviously classical classical novels as well, but, um, yeah, no, it's so it's so interesting. Um, but she, she has her, she has her own little beast. I just, I just set her loose.
Speaker 2:Well, I loved her and that actually makes a lot of sense to me to hear you talk about, uh, how she kind of came to you, you know, in full existence because she just, she does seem so authentic. And I loved her as a character because she walks that line and it's kind of one of my favorite, like female, Y a protagonist types is that that character who she's a survivor, she's gritty, she's a little aloof, but at the same time, like she has this deep yearning for love and connection. Uh, and, and I love that. I love reading about characters, who that
Speaker 3:Yeah, she's she is, she is a soft little squishy heart, had a girl who's had to grow up in a world. That's made her put up these walls, you know, but it at her, at her core is this really empathetic, deep need to connect to other people and to care and to love. But she can't, she's had been in a world that she can't show that. So she has these, you know, and, and that sort of, it's funny, you should look as Cody is the exact opposite of her
Speaker 2:Fun together.
Speaker 3:He's, uh, he's, uh, he is a guy that's grown up with, you know, no less hardships, but he's been given that space to breathe. So he's been given the space to be emotional and to have feelings and to grow and like art. And so when he, when they meet, you know, he's the first person that ever sees her, you know, he's not, he is not repulsed by her. He's not put off by her because he sees her. And so I think for, for the story, I think that's really interesting, my interesting dynamic between the two of them there, they are so opposite, but like we'll recognize like,
Speaker 2:Yeah. And he does a great job of, you know, connecting with that soft, squishy heart of hers, you know, and kind of almost showing her kind of almost pulling her out of that shell, um, and showing her that it's okay to show feelings, to have feelings. Um, and I, you get the feeling that she hasn't experienced that before. Oh, she hates it. Feelings are awful the worst. Um, I'm curious. Cause I don't know of that many, actually I don't, I don't think I can think of a single young adult Western. Uh, do you know of any way he westerns now other than yours? Like, are you new to the, you it in this?
Speaker 3:No, no, there, um, there are definitely a few, I know Aaron Bowman has a couple of westerns, so okay. Retribution rails and vengeance road, I think are her two westerns. I haven't read either of them. Um, but I, I always look at those covers and I'm amazed. I makes want you to read them. And then there is one that was released, but they tend to be more dystopia. So a lot of the westerns tend to be rather than fantasy or fairy tale, they tend to be dystopian books. Right. So the good luck girls that came out, that's a Western, but I hope the thing, the funny thing about that is maybe it's my own fault. Um, but I didn't read any of those books before I wrote this one.
Speaker 2:I can do my own
Speaker 3:Fault, but I know they're there. I know they exist. So yeah,
Speaker 2:I am so curious. Cause I think a lot of aspiring, they have an idea, you know, there's something, a story that's inside of them that they're excited about, but if they can't find something in the market to compare it to, then there's this, this natural feeling of maybe nobody else wants this story. You know, maybe how, how much, how difficult is it going to be for me to sell this, to find a home for it, to find a publisher who's willing to kind of take a chance on this unproven market. Did you feel that way? Like, was that something that you had to kind of struggle with when you were writing this?
Speaker 3:I think I struggle with that more after I sold it. Um, interesting. Yeah. So when I wrote it, um, I don't think it was really a struggle for me to worry about whether or not, uh, someone would like it because, um, it was a very different, uh, querying experience then with my first thought, the first thought was that I tried to, to publish this one. I had, you know, like a lot of floor crusts right away and then multiple offers. So it was kind of like my other ones had gotten little nibbles, but this was very different. Um, and I think that's probably, um, a response to the strength of the voice in the novel as compared to like just the genre marketing. And then when we went on some, we sold it relatively quickly. Um, uh, but after, so now when people are starting to read it and the general public, I think that now is when I'm really nervous that it doesn't have a place in the market because there's, the reactions are kind of on two sides of the fence. I think either you love Jory and you get what I'm trying to do. Or you were just very confused by all these genres being in one place together. So, you know, they're like, Oh, it's supposed to be fantasy. Where's the magic of, it's not that much magic. And then other people were like supposed to be a Western. Why is there as too much magic? So it's just like, so I think it's that to me now is it's a stranger now is those little nose dilly. Now the book coming out, I mean, February at night for the book coming out, it's those little doubts are now the ones that are starting to creep in, right? That's about, you know, having too many genres jockeying for space and it's a standalone. So we can, it's a short novel too. So trying to get all those different pieces to sort of fit together. And I think setting up the correct expectations for a reader. So they go into it knowing sort of what it, what it's supposed to be rather than what they would think, um, a fantasy is supposed to be as is worrisome. I think in my little heart.
Speaker 2:No, I know. And I think we all worry, you know, when we have a new a book going out into the world, it's impossible not to worry, but I know we do spend a lot of time, um, on this podcast talking about the subjectivity of things and like not every reader is going to love every book. And you know, we know that as much as you hate to think of like not getting it, not getting what you were trying to accomplish here and not, not feeling it in their heart, but I know for me, I just always come back to that hope that it's going to find the readers who will get it and who will fall in love with it. Um, and I think that this book it's so different and so unique, but like you say, there's this just amazing voice and this amazing protagonist, I don't know. I'm not worried about it. I think it's gonna take just fine. I think it's definitely going to find its readers. Okay. Well thank you. I want to talk world-building um, because this book, obviously I can't help, but read things as a writer. And there were things about the world building that I know would have really challenged me if I were to be writing this world. Um, but they were handled so definitely, and I was so impressed. So specifically, like a lot of times when we talk about world building, it's almost like we're thinking, okay, what can I add? What, what more cities can I put in here and what types of scenery and commerce and government, and you know, what cultures are there and these sorts of things. Whereas this book, it's almost like it strips everything away that it can. And it's like built around barrenness and solitude and I loved it. It felt so just sterile and cold and creepy at times, but I'm just fascinated by how you were able to do that. Um, and, and still managed to keep it so interesting and keep the world evolving as the story went on. So just talk, talk to me a little bit about kind of your process and how you were approaching the world.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that is, I mean, you nailed on the head that, but it's very intentional decision. The pers person point of view, close, claustrophobic, a world that is stripped of nothing. A girl who has nothing, everything is meant to feel. And the way the language is the short sentences, everything is meant to feel compressive and tight and small. And that's entirely the intention behind that. But at the same time, I can think of no better place to reflect the character of them that has a hidden world is actually full of life. If you just look in the right places and to me, that's the Arctic, right? So those beautiful Tundras that are glistening and they'll kill you if you go out there. But if you, if you just peel back that thin layer of crust, you know, the top skin of snow, you're going to find animals, you're going to find, you're going to find everything that makes a beating heart of an environment and an ecosystem. It's all there. It's just adapted to not show you itself. And I just love the complexity and the possibilities of that, you know, juxtaposed with sort of the character's growth in the same way that you thought the ice, the character would fall. And so that was a very intentional choice to put those two together and to sort of find the beauty in the desolation of the wilderness,
Speaker 2:Um, which is like, it's such a great parallel for Jori herself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no. And, and I'm a huge nature documentary fan. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I haven't seen it.
Speaker 3:Everything David Attenborough's ever narrated. And, um, when probably the, the tip for me, I guess, for, for that kind of world building is I had the fruit like blue planet and frozen planet and the North on, in the background when I was revising those scenes. Oh, what a great idea. And so the music that they've chosen for those scenes it's own soundtrack, right? And then you have the beautiful visuals and you just sit there and you're writing and you can take in the details and the sensory and the information and you sort of, uh, uh, harm me that you can form with that. And that's sort of how I tried to spiff up the, the like, Ooh, you know, not just like the thought more snow.
Speaker 2:No, no. And that's, I wonder that too, because I mean, do you have a fuss Saurus with like snow and ice and cold, just like flagged, like what other words?
Speaker 3:I know there's so many, there's so many. Yeah. I know how many times can one person used the word ice in a book? Let me tell you it's probably the limit in this book. Um, but no, I did feels okay.
Speaker 2:Well done. And like that was, you know, as far as like me thinking, how would I write this and what challenges would it pose? Because there really, there's just not enough words for snow and ice and you're surrounded by it every moment, minute of this book, but the language never felt stunted because of that, which I just thought, like, how did she
Speaker 3:Thank you? No, it's, it's definitely good. And I definitely did a lot of research. I read a lot. I love non-fiction. Um, and so I read a lot of Arctic exploration books, so like about Shackleton's voyage and a lot of the like Northern passage, um, and a lot of, um, into what does it, it's like into the Boyd, which is a lot climbing memoir of a disaster on Everest. So a lot of, I read a lot of, um, nonfiction books about firsthand experiences of people in the ice and snow. And it's funny to me because what they focus on is not what you would think they focus on. So, um, you know, people are like, Oh, well, you know, you you'd go out there and you'd see like a big blanket of ice, just your eye, but the person who's trained to be out there is going to see that one bloom of like snow crystals that tell you that it's not safe there. So this is so much variation. If you're looking for the right thing,
Speaker 2:How fascinating it was. It's like a totally different world that so few of us actually ever get to experience outside of, of books and documentaries.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know. It's fun. It's great. And, um, I wrote this, I wrote this, the first draft of this book during my final year of my surgical residency. Um, and so I always joke, like you can take away what you want a girl surviving in a harsh environment. You can take away the inspirate, whatever, and scratch, and you want for my surgical residency for that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, no, it's good.
Speaker 3:It's good. I love it. It was, it was a lot, it was really fun. I've always been obsessed with the wild on the outdoors. So yeah, that's, that's probably comes across in like little description, but I love it.
Speaker 2:No, I loved it too. And it really, I mean, it is one of those books that you just feel like you're there the whole time. And like, I was constantly, I had to be wrapped up in a blanket.
Speaker 3:You're not the first person to tell me that. So I don't take it as a compliment.
Speaker 2:And I am curious because, you know, you mentioned it's a standalone and it, it, it like it is, it has a wonderful closure at the end. And yet it is one of those books where it feels like we've just seen this tiny little portion of this much bigger world that has, you know, mythology and magic. And we've just seen the barest, the tip of the iceberg. Um, is there, you know, have you thought, do you think that you'll ever come back to this world again? Yeah.
Speaker 3:There is a whole world. I mean, I have world maps and, um, peoples and all the little dominoes, like, you know, like that, like a game board, they're all there, they're all set up. Um, and I don't have any plans to revisit it. Um, I guess that sort of all depends, but, um, I do have, uh, I do have always had a companion novel in my head and it's planned and I would love one day to have it out there, but that's sort of not in the cards at the moment. Um, but it is, it focuses, um, on Cody in the South. So we are the university in the South, so it's where he comes from and it's all about, um, it would be set, you know, way before, um, this book. And when that, when those first little fingers of magic are sort of bubbling up, you know, into the mangroves of this warm Southern forests, um, that would be, that's bought that if I went back, that's where I would be
Speaker 2:Fascinating. I hadn't even thought prequel. Um, well, cool. Well, I mean, it definitely, like I say, it feels like there's a lot more to be told here, so I hope you get the chance to do it, but I also know how publishing works and that's always up to us. Um, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I also want to talk about, I mean, kind of the structure, this is a quest story, which I didn't expect it to be a quest story, um, going into it, you, as the, I, knowing that it was a Western kind of set on a Tundra, but very early on jury's sisters kidnapped and Jorie has to go venture across the Tundra and the ice flats in order to get her sister back. Um, and I have myself yet to write a true quest story and, but I love them. I love reading them and I always am just fascinated by how authors plan the obstacles. Um, and it seems to me like that would be one of the, both, one of the fun parts about writing a quest story, but also one of the difficult things like to make sure that you have enough thing standing in your characters way, that they don't just, you know, sit up off across the ice and then next chapter they've reached their destination. So what were some of the things that you did when you were planning out the story and the things that Jori and Cody were going to encounter?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's funny, it's funny. Other people have said they think it's, uh, you know, it's sort of a, like an Arctic road trip,
Speaker 2:Um, style narratively cozier than it actually is. I love a good road trip, just me and my sled dogs. Um,
Speaker 3:So I, I always thought of it a little bit along the lines, more of a hero's journey, um, which, you know, she has at its heart, a quest narrative, um, you know, something changes, something moves some, you know, Freddo in the ring, all those kinds of things. Um, with this one, it's funny to me because it is a little bit, you know, a quest narrative is always, there's a, you're trying to get something or, um, you know, you're after the, you know, salmon Frodo, they have to go across, you know, two more door or, you know, you're trying to save something. And in some ways just, um, jury's quest is really a quest to save her sister, which, you know sure, sure. She is a person. Um, but she's also to Dory. She symbolizes everything good in her life. So all her hope, all her love, all her cares are sort of wrapped up in that person. Um, and so for Jorie, I think the, the challenges that you've you've set along the way are not necessarily the physical challenges, although definitely the environment demands physical challenges, but it's like overlapping rings that get the get harder and harder and harder, the closer she gets to what she wants. And so the challenges are physical, right? But there are also challenges to what she's going to try to save, which is hope and family and love. And so the physical challenges are almost secondary to those emotional beats as she passes each of those rings. And that's kind of how I tried to, um, throw obstacles in her way. So it's not just, it's not just things that challenge her physically. It's like, I was the, it's not, not a spoiler, but they, you know, crash a sled early on, you know, that's, that's sort of, uh, but she has to learn she's art, but the crash of the sled, isn't just a physical problem, it's that, you know, Cody caused it. So she has to figure out how she can continue to work with someone who she knows could compromise a problem. And so every, every challenge has to a two-prong approach, I guess, is the best way I could describe it.
Speaker 2:So, as you were writing, I mean, were you kind of just going along and would have a thought, Oh, what if they crashed the sled here versus did you, you know, upfront when you were starting the book or starting to draft, did you like come up with a list of things that here are some ideas for things that she could encounter or things that she might have to overcome?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So it's funny. The sled is the only one that I, this flood is the only one that was retroactively introduced to the story. The other ones are sort of the natural beats that came up because what I just did is, um, I had sort of, you know, my beginning beats and my end and I had this big stretch in the middle. That was just I,
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 3:I had to figure out a way to, you know, break that up. And, um, and so to me, the best way to figure out a way to break it up and sort of have a natural proposal into the story is for me not to know along with the reader, what's going to happen next. And so I just let myself sort of free write that center, um, center bits, and yeah, they're pretty much the challenges, um, and the things that they encounter aren't different. I mean, I would say it's been edited, but the, the big things that they need out on the ice, those have always remained the same.
Speaker 2:I'm fascinated by that because I, everyone who listens to this podcast knows I am a planner and an outliner. And the idea of just looking at this book and writing this story where Kay, now she's heading out into the ice without any idea of what's going to happen to her. Oh my gosh, I would be so panicked, but I love hearing that. And it, it worked so well.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Yeah, no, I, I, I, I always say that, like, you know, I've Al I started off definitely being a, um, but I definitely have picked up little bits of plotting along the way. Um, but in my, the thing that I'm working on now, which is my, my current work in progress, I am kicking my butt. That it has not been plotted better because these two visions are,
Speaker 2:Yeah. Every book needs different things. We have to adapt as, as needed. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, no, I, I might, I may be joining your side of the fence on this whole conundrum.
Speaker 2:We welcome you. If you decide that I also, I get like, it doesn't work for everybody. Some writers need that exploration and, and maybe in a story like this one, you know, it, it makes sense to me that it would be almost as though you were going out on this quest, not knowing just like Jorie was, you know, there's a, a balance to that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. There's the, um, you know, Anne Cleves, she writes the Vierra, um, novels, the mystery series, a murder mystery series. She famous. So verus Stan hope is her main detective character. And she famously doesn't plot those books.
Speaker 2:And so
Speaker 3:The same panic that you were feeling like, I don't know what they're going to do on the ice. I read those books. I go, how did she know who was the killer? I don't understand.
Speaker 2:Especially difficult for a murder mystery because all the clues and the red herrings and yeah. But some writers, I don't know, maybe there was some writers, brains are just built for it. Not mine. I know.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I used to think I was much more, much more happy with the, just the freedom of being a pastor, but more recently the reform is coming.
Speaker 2:No, I do. I mean, I think that's, that's part of being a writer though, too, and writing many books over the course of a career is that you do change and you grow and the process is not static. And of course, we get asked all the time about our process and I'm constantly asking writers about their process, but also knowing that every book is different. It changes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:Okay. We are going to wrap this up now with our happy writer bonus round, what book makes you happy?
Speaker 3:All creatures. Great. And small by James Harriet. I know it's cliche, but that whole, the all creatures great and small, all things bright and beautiful, all things wise and wonderful. Um, those tales of the York Shire, Dale veterinarian, just, they I've read those. I cannot tell you they're dog eared and tattered. And they're my favorite books that I own.
Speaker 2:Hmm. What is your favorite thing to do in the snow?
Speaker 3:Oh, uh, interesting question. Uh, uh, probably, I don't know the answer to that question. That's funny. I wrote a book in my eyes, so what do I love to do? I love to, I love, okay. Love to go out and spend a beautiful day hiking and snow, snow shoes and my husband and my dog, and just out in the space and then come home and sit in front of the fire with a cup of hot cocoa and just listen and watch the rest of the snow come down in the night.
Speaker 2:Hmm. Now I'm with you. I mean, I love the smell, but my totally, my favorite part of the snow is getting out of it, the hot
Speaker 3:And a fire after being out in your noses, red from the cold, and he's getting in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I hear you. It really is. What is your personal mantra?
Speaker 3:Never give up and never let anyone make you feel small.
Speaker 2:How do you fill the creative? Well,
Speaker 3:I love reading way outside of my comfort zone. So I love reading non-fiction. I love reading books that I pick up and secondhand stores from, you know, the 19 hundreds or earlier, or this looking at texts that you never would think to get inspiration from. I also love podcasts, especially during the pandemic and isolation, the amount and sheer joy of information that people are putting out there on great subjects, mythology, podcasts, and history podcasts in particular have kept me same during this pandemic. Oh, what are some of your favorites? Um, yeah, so the partial historians is really great. I also love, um, uh, let's talk about myths, baby. And, um, my absolute favorite one is the explore us podcast. So like Explorer, but explore us. And she talks about daily life for women in different time periods. And she focused on regular people, but also historical figures. And so you get five episodes on the life of women in Rome and you get the politics and you also get how their makeup was made. It's it's phenomenal.
Speaker 2:Oh, that sounds so good. That is so up my aisle.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's she looks through the lens of, um, focusing on the, the big influential women in history for some of them. And it's, it's so good if you love, uh, if you love history and you love a new spin on looking at what the actual role of women where it's perfect,
Speaker 2:Lastly, where can people find you?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So you can find me on social media, which now, but it's not Twitter, but Twitter, which I'm never really on, but I definitely have an account. And then Instagram and they're both, um, cipher, C Y P H E R underscore, etc. And then on my website, which is just Ellie cipher.com.
Speaker 2:Ellie, thank you so much for joining me today. Yeah, no thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun. It was fun. And congratulations on your debut coming out tomorrow. I hope you have a great launch day. Uh, you can do it readers and be sure to check out the girl from shadow Springs, which hits stores tomorrow. Of course, we always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore if you can. But if you don't have a local indie, you can also check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and leave us a review on Google or Apple podcasts. You can also follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy and cozy and your bunkers and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling
Speaker 1:[inaudible].