Marissa chats with Anna-Marie McLemore about their newest YA magical realism novel - THE MIRROR SEASON - as well as those absolutely enchanted moments when the research brings the missing pieces of a story together in the most serendipitous way; how rewriting fairy tales can be an empowering act for readers and writers who don't often see themselves represented in the widely known versions of these stories; using magic and symbolism to reflect your character arcs and the changing course of the story; and some of Anna-Marie's strategies for bringing a character's unique voice into focus. Plus, Marissa tests an ongoing theory, with inconclusive results.
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa chats with Anna-Marie McLemore about their newest YA magical realism novel - THE MIRROR SEASON - as well as those absolutely enchanted moments when the research brings the missing pieces of a story together in the most serendipitous way; how rewriting fairy tales can be an empowering act for readers and writers who don't often see themselves represented in the widely known versions of these stories; using magic and symbolism to reflect your character arcs and the changing course of the story; and some of Anna-Marie's strategies for bringing a character's unique voice into focus. Plus, Marissa tests an ongoing theory, with inconclusive results.
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
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Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I'm your host, Marissa Meyer. Thanks so much for joining me. Some things that have been making me happy this week, and it's kind of a multi-tiered grouping of things, but they've all become kind of interlaced in our family life. Uh, the first one is Michael Jackson's thriller video, which I mean, come on is like one of the coolest music videos of all time, even though it came out decades ago. Uh, and my girls are really, really into this video. And so as part of our like quote unquote PE physical education in our homeschool is that we have decided to start trying to learn to do the thriller dance together. So that has been super fun. And honestly, something that's like been on my bucket list for ages. And then in doing that, we've now fallen down this YouTube rabbit hole of thriller inspired videos. And there is this stop motion, Lego thriller that somebody put together. It is awesome. I definitely recommend going and watching it. It is totally worth the five minutes of your time to see it. And then that now has led us into stop motion animation. And my girls are wanting to make their own little stop motion, animation videos. I posted one on Instagram earlier this week, uh, of an Elsa doll getting maybe eaten by a shark. Maybe she's hugging the shark. It's tough to tell what's going on. I don't know, but it's just been making me really, really happy watching the girls, uh, kind of experience this new art form. And it's just been a really, really fun week. So that is all making me super happy. And of course I am so happy to be talking to today's guest. They're the author of multiple books for young adults, including when the moon was ours, the weight of feathers and wild beauty, their newest novel the mirror season comes out this week on March 16th. Please. Welcome on a Marine Macklemore.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 2:Thank you for joining me. I'm super happy to have you too. Why don't we start, um, just by jumping right into it. Why don't you tell listeners about your new book, the mirror season?
Speaker 3:So the mirror season is about to sexual assault survivors, a Latina girl, and a boy who find their fates intertwined during this month of enchanted mirrors and injected, humble say, and vanishing for this is really a story about survivors supporting each other survivors, helping each other, find their strength, their voice, and really rediscovering their magic, um, and rediscovering who they are both in the, in the aftermath of trauma and re and rediscovering who they, who they spend the whole time. This is a book, a lot about holding onto identity. It's about it's about Penn sexual identity. It's also, um, very, very loosely inspired by the snow queen. There are elements of the snow queen throughout this because it's a story that the main character CLL really connects to. She wonders what, what do we say about this, about this character who we're so quick to take as a villain? What, what happened to her that made her more at home in this world of ice? What are we not asking about her? What, what is her story? So this is, uh, this is a book that, um, definitely has magic. It's also a little bit more contemporary than I've done before, but it has a little bit of that, of, of that fairytale essence in there, especially as something that, um, Seattle holds onto throughout the story.
Speaker 2:Well, there are about 8 billion things that I want to talk about with this book. Um, so since you've already brought up fairytales, that was definitely on my list. Uh, so let's start there because obviously fairytales are something that you and I have in common, deep love for fairytales. And I know this is not the first book that you've, you know, addressed fairytales and use them to inspire the story. Um, I know you did a book inspired by the red shoes by Hans Christian Anderson. Um, and I believe what was a snow white Rose red. I think you did one as well.
Speaker 3:Yes, that was a, that was blanquito Ohio. That was kind of putting together snow white and Rose red with Swan Lake.
Speaker 2:Oh, I didn't know. Swan Lake was an inspiration in that too. Oh, that's so cool. So one thing that I like love immediately off the bat is that you're kind of choosing fairytales that are a little bit more obscure. Um, of course my first one was Cinderella, which is like the opposite of obscure, but I love, I love that you're using these ones that readers may or may not be super familiar with. So just talk to me a little bit about why fairytales, why, what is it that you love about them and why do you keep pull, easing them to, to pull into your stories?
Speaker 3:I think something I love about fairytales is that they're, they're speaking to something universal in us. And part of what I always say when I say that is that fairytales are in every tradition, they're in, they're in every culture, even if we often think of them, especially in this, in this, as this is a certain, very, very Western version of them, very specific image we have of them, but fairytales are there in every tradition. So I have, I have fairytales that I, I loved growing up that are from that more European tradition. Like I loved the snow queen growing up. It was one that I felt I felt very deeply connected to. Um, I was sort of, I, I sort of loved and was also haunted by the red shoes because I was a dancer. Um, but there are also, there are also stories that sort of spoke to, to folklore that I heard growing up. Like there is a, there is a Mexican version of snow, white and Rose red. There, there are a lot of similarities. Um, I love that version of snow white and Rose red. And I don't really want to call it a version of snow white and Rose red because they're, they're different, they're different stories, they're from different traditions, but they sort of talked to each other a lot for me when I was writing Blanca Rojas, especially because infancy fail. So in that story, it's the sort of, it's the sort of Rose red character, the character that would be closest, total highlight. She's the one who, who goes and gets things done. She's the one who says, okay, I'll, I'll take care of this, I'll fix this. So I, I love the way fairytales talk to each other. I love the way fairytales talk to us and address what's within us. I also love taking them apart with the red shoes, this idea of dancing overtaking you of, of sweeping you away. That was something that spoke to me so much as, um, as a young dancer, as someone who was giving so much to this art form that I absolutely loved, but also it was, it was taking so much from my body. It was taking so much from me. So this idea of getting of getting taken up and swept away in something that you love, but something that's also a little dangerous that spoke to me. And at the same time, the red shoes is kind of this morality tale, right? Like if, if you, if you give into vanity, if you want something beautiful, if you want these red shoes, then something horrible will happen to you. So these sort of messages of about like girlhood and womanhood, which I have, I have a complicated relationship with because I'm, non-binary in some, in, in some ways I do identify as a girl, but I also identify more as a boy than I do as a girl. So that also played into a lot of it, like what, what you're being told about, about girlhood, what you're being told about becoming a woman. So I, I love fairytales and I also love taking very tales apart. And that's something that I, I really wanted to do with, with the snow queen in the mirror season, um, for a couple of different aspects. One was the snow queen herself. And the idea of what, what is, what is the story that would make you that would make you that much more at home in this isolated freezing world? And also thinking about other elements of, of the snow queen. It was a story I loved, but it was a story that also when I read the full version of it as, as a child made me deeply uncomfortable, because the, the only, the only Brown character in there is, is portrayed in this way that, that shows her as a villain. So if I wanted to find myself in this story, I had to sort of accept that that's, that's where I was. And that's something CLL also thinks about, like what, what is the story telling me about me both in terms of the snow queen and in terms of this character who is called the, was called the little Robert girl, and what do I, what do I make of this? And that sort of becomes her analog for, what do I make of my own story? What do I make of my after of my going forward?
Speaker 2:[inaudible] no. And I think in this day and age with doing retellings and us writers exploring retellings, it can be kind of an empowering thing. I mean, to take this story and these characters, you know, that were written hundreds of years ago that have been retold so much and like take them apart, pick them apart and kind of give a new spin. Like we can use these bones of these stories, but rewrite them in a way in which we do see ourselves more in them, which I think can be really empowering.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely. And that's something I, I feel so deeply, um, being a, a writer of color, being a mixed race writer, a Latinex writer, uh, uh, trans and and non-binary writer, it's this, it, it is this empowering act of, of bringing, bringing my communities more into these stories and also know knowing that I'm like, none of us are doing this alone. Like, we're all, we're, we're all doing this work. We all have to do this work together of making these stories more aware, making them more inclusive and making them into, into stories that tell us the things that, that I, I almost said, the things that, the things that we needed to hear as teams. Um, and I think that's true, but it's also sometimes I think things that we need to hear as adults too,
Speaker 2:I can't help, but notice that you've chosen some really brutal fairies. Yeah. I mean, obviously a lot of fairytales have elements of dark in them, especially when you go back to some of the older versions. Um, but these unread shoes in particular, Hans Christian Anderson, I mean, he, he just really didn't pull any punches. Is there, is there a reason, why do you think that the, the particularly dark ones are speaking to you or spoke to you as a child?
Speaker 3:Well, with the red shoes, there were part of what I was talking about with being a dancer. It's this, it's this a little, it's this relationship with this art form where you love it, but it's also kind of this toxic relationship with this art form because of how much it takes from you, because sometimes you have people telling you that your body needs to change. Especially being like being like a young Latinex dancer. Like my, my body did not look the way a lot of, a lot of other dancers bodies looked and I would get, I would get feedback on that. And that was something that was really hard. So there was something captured about that in that story, but the way that I ended up getting to that story was I wanted to write about the 15, 18 dancing plague in Strausberg. And I specifically wanted to write about that one because it was one of the best documented, just this strange historical phenomenon of dozens, and then hundreds of people dancing and dancing for days dancing in a way that seemed physically impossible. And in, in many tragic cases, dancing until they fell down dead. So this phenomenon that, that existed in many different places and in many different years, it happened to be one of the best documented instances was in Strausberg in 1518. So I, I wanted to write about that moment in history. And there was a, there was a point where I realized that that had to go together with the red shoes, like something about that, just they were, they were talking to each other and it wasn't until partway into the research process. I was just reading everything I could find about, about the 15, 18 dancing plugin, Strasburg, um, everything I could find about that particular moment in the history of Strausberg. And in this one, footnote, I find out that there's, there's actually a historical connection between that particular dancing plague and Hans Christian Anderson is the red shoes a couple of hundred years later. So we don't have, as far as I know, we don't have any specific documentation that the, that Hans Christian Anderson was referencing this, but considering the evidence that we have, it seems pretty clear that it is because red shoes did play a role in this dancing plague in a way that they didn't in other dancing plagues. So that was one of, that was one of the moments of absolute magic in that writing process, where I, where I found that after I had decided to write the book, and I thought of, of course these have been, these have been talking to each other, and I'm just grateful that the research is there and the work of these scholars that I was able to find define these threads of history that sort of lead to this, this kind of secret history of this fairytale.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. That's so cool. I have heard of that. Plague. I've read the fairy tale. I never made that connection in my mind. I can just imagine how giddy you were to stumble across that. That's amazing.
Speaker 3:It was one of my, it, it was, it was one of my research nerd moments, um, just because I was, I was getting into the scholarly work that I was, I was so grateful for and so grateful to be able to, to access, um, the work of these historians and the fact that I had picked this particular, this particular dancing plague, and that this was the one that had the connection with red shoes that had red shoes woven into it. It was, it was just one of those things where I've I, yeah, it was, it was one of those just magic serendipitous things. And I I've heard that happening with other authors. Like sometimes, sometimes I there's just there's magic in the research process that you don't know about until you find it.
Speaker 2:There is, that is so true. I also am a research nerd and yes, there are times when you don't really expect things to connect in just such a perfect way that it almost feels inevitable. It's like the universe, there's a sign from the universe that you were writing the right book at the right time and things suddenly come together. And that's just such an amazing feeling.
Speaker 3:Exactly. I have to ask you now, what have been some of your favorite research, rabbit holes?
Speaker 2:You know, the way the one that I have in my mind, I actually can't talk about, um, there was a book that I started working on this past summer. Um, it's my 20, 20 side project secret book nobody knows about yet. And it deals a lot with, with history, with world history and kind of like ancient ruins and missing civilizations and that sort of thing. Um, and there, yeah, there was actually a number of times when I was trying to get the plot to go in one direction, but you need something pulling it that way. And then I would just stumble across the perfect detail in my research. It's like, that's it? That, that makes all of the pieces come together just right. Um, which I know was like really vague, but hopefully there'll be a time when I get to talk about it.
Speaker 3:Oh, well, that's amazing. I can't wait. And even what you, what you have said, I can imagine just getting lost in that freezer. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, so many research rabbit holes with this book. Um, it was just, it's been fun though. It's been some of the most interesting research I've ever done for a book, so very enjoyable. Okay. I need to move on cause I have so many other things I want to talk to you about that we're not going to get, okay. Let's talk about, let's move back to the mirror season. Um, one thing I thought was so well done in this book. So it is, you know, of course at the center of the story is a sexual attack on this boy and this girl. And so right there, we know we're dealing with, you know, very serious issues, but at the same time, you've managed to bring a lot of levity and humor into the book. Um, which I don't know. I don't think I was fully expecting and I loved it. Um, like all of the abstinence only sex education pamphlets and all of those scenes, I just thought was. So talk to me a little bit about, uh, just kind of your thought process in writing a book that is on one hand dealing with a really serious matter. Um, but how much are you thinking that about humor and about bringing in kind of some of that lightness into the story?
Speaker 3:So I think a couple of things happened that that led to this level of humor in the book. And I, and thank you so much. I'm, I'm so glad you enjoyed it. Um, they were some of my, those are some of my favorite scenes to write just these, these two characters, interacting and laughing about things. And I think they, those scenes had to be there for a couple of reasons. One was, I, I have a certain sense of being cognizant of, um, of taking care of the reader. And I know that there's, we're, we're not, we're not protecting readers from, from things because readers readers can make decisions for themselves. They can interpret stories, stories for themselves. But I knew that I knew that some of the readers who were going to be seeking out this book, we're probably also going to be survivors. And I wanted to leave space for, for the fact that we have to, we have to remember how to laugh. We have to, we have to keep finding ways to laugh, to, to be, to be blunt, to remember that we know how, um, so that was something I thought about that these, these scenes have to have to be in there both for those readers and in general, because when you're, when you're talking about something, something that has this, this kind of weight to it, you're gonna, you're, you're gonna need to balance that out. And you're going to need those, those scenes that have, have that humor that have that levity. And I also wanted to portray these, these two survivors, finding that laughter with each other, because that's, that's often been my experience. Like, um, I, I laugh more with other survivors when I'm in, when I'm in difficult places than then. I think I, then I think I do with anyone else just cause we, we know the places in each other that hurt or not necessarily talking about it, but we have that shared frame of reference. So it's a safe space to, to laugh. It's, it's a safe space to be able to remember that we, we still find joy in the world. We can still, we can still find humor in the world. And that's something that I've really found that survivors do for each other. And that's something that I've, I've been so, so grateful for. And I wanted to, to show that on the page survivors, giving each other that, that safe, that safe space to laugh. And even when, as you were talking about with the, the scenes about the abstinence only pamphlets, even laughing about things that they didn't think they could laugh about. And this sort of reflected my experience of when I'm talking with my friends who are, who are fellow survivors, like we can, we can joke about things that we could not joke about with other people like talking, talking about abstinence only education or talking about things that we just didn't think we'd be able to talk about or be able to laugh about. So that's something I really wanted to want it to show on the page that unexpected sense of, Oh, I, I still do. I still do have my sense of humor and I, I still have this power that I can take back by, by claiming that
Speaker 4:As you were talking, I hadn't really thought of this as I was reading the book. But in, in hearing you talk about it, it reminded me just of how healing laughter can be. Um, and I don't know that you were really intentionally like exploring the healing power, um, in, in these specific scenes, but in thinking back to the story and all of these things that these characters are going through, it, it does kind of, it comes to the surface there that like, this is, these are some of the moments where they are starting to heal from this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think you're, I think you're right. Laughter has amazing power to heal us. And that, I don't know if that was necessarily something I was thinking of in the writing, but I think that, I think that is there. And I think that's something that, that is one of the greatest gifts that, um, that we give each other, whether you're talking about survivors supporting each other or, or all of us just supporting each other in general, I think that's, that's one of the gifts, biggest gifts we give each other
Speaker 4:[inaudible]. So I really want to talk about some of the magical elements in this book. Um, is it, or do you think of this as a magical realism? Is that the genre that you've attached to it?
Speaker 3:I think I do. Yes,
Speaker 4:But it felt that way to me, but I know magical realism means different things to different people. So first of all, I mean, I love it and I love the magical realism genre kind of just as a whole, uh, you know, this idea that you can look at our plain normal everyday world and then scatter these bits of winsy and strangeness throughout it. And it just makes everything come to life and sparkle in ways that I, my imagination has never thought of before. And I love that as a writer, I just get so giddy about that. So when you, I know you've written magical realism and you've written this, these kind of dark and whimsical books, um, throughout your career, what is your process? How are you coming up with the magical details? How much of that is you thinking in advance about what you're going to include versus letting it kind of bubble up and the writing process like what's, what's your process?
Speaker 3:It varies from book to book, but for this, it did sort of, it did sort of bubble up through the writing process. There was a little bit more that came out in every iteration of this, of this book. I think it, it started with Sienna and her intended bumbles say, um, and then next was the, was the vanishing trees and the, the mirrors actually came later on. And I think that was something that came later because I, one, I had to be ready to do that. I had to be ready for. I had to be ready for what that meant and what that was going to mean in this story. And also because I think there's a sense to which my process for writing magical realism kind of, kind of re reflects how magical realism works in my brain. A lot of the time, which is the, this idea of magic coming to the surface and showing you things, um, making you look at things that either you didn't want to look at, or maybe your community doesn't want to look at, or maybe, maybe that you need to, you need to examine or consider more closely. So more and more of that magic came out through the writing process. And I think in this, in this book, especially that idea of, of its surfacing of magic, telling you, telling you things that you need to know and magic making you, making you face your, your own secrets and face things that you may think about yourself or your, your community that you, that you may need to reconsider. And in NCLR's case, a lot of that is, is realizing, is realizing how much she's not alone. Um, realizing that there are, there are people around her who will support her and love her and affirmed that she is, she is who she is no matter what's happened to her. She's um, she can still be proud of being, of being Latina, of being pansexual. She can still be, be proud of, of her identity. I think it's
Speaker 4:Fascinating that the mirrors weren't at the forefront of the creation of this book, um, because obviously by the, the finished book that we are receiving in our hands, the mirrors are such an integral part of, of the story and the symbolism and how the cimbalom symbolism of them just continues to build, you know, throughout the story. And there were so many moments where I started to think, okay, the mirrors are they're symbolic of this thing. And then 50 pages later, I'm like, no, they're also symbolic of this thing. And I mean, it was like, it was constantly changing as the story was changing. And I was just blown away by that. I thought it was brilliant. Thank you so much to you without giving anything away without obviously spoilers. Like, what are the mirrors mean to you and what were you trying to accomplish with them?
Speaker 3:Let me think about this without, without giving, without giving spoilers.
Speaker 4:I know it might be the sort of question that you can't answer without giving things away. I'm going to, I'm going to try all the cheesy pun about how they reflect what's happening to the kid.
Speaker 3:No, I think I've probably already used the word reflect without thinking about it. So no, no pun intended. Um, so I think that the, the way I can, the way I can put it without giving spoilers is probably, is probably going to be really broad, but I'm going to, I'm going to try anyway. I think, I think that the mirrors end up, I'm gonna use the word reflect again, the mirrors, the mirrors end up reflecting what these characters journey is with trauma and what their relation is. Relationship is with trauma, how they, how they make sense of what's happened, how they hold on to themselves and how they, how they figure out what life looks after and how they go forward.
Speaker 4:And same question, but regarding the, and I, I was saying Penn, Dolce, but you pronounce it differently.[inaudible] so for you and I, I mean, I love this and food and magic just seem to go hand in hand for whatever reason. Uh, and so we have this character who can just look at somebody and know exactly what kind of sweet or pastry this person needs right now. Um, and not like on a physical, like what's going to satiate their hunger, but what do they need emotionally and spiritually? And I just love that idea. It's so, so romantic and so touching. And I mean, I wish that I could go to this bakery.
Speaker 3:Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad you liked that. Yeah. I love, I loved the process of thinking about Bumble, say as its own language and thinking about what each of these characters, what they would, what they would need in, in sort of pastry or, or bread form.
Speaker 4:I felt like it added this really great depth to the community, um, that, that this bakery is located in that these characters are living in, you know, because every person who walks through those doors that she, she looks at and she has to figure out what does this person need? Like, she gets these little, almost like fortune teller ask glimpses into this person's life and into what they're going. And it was just like, at this constant reminder that, you know, even though the story is focused on these characters, they're living in a, a wider world in which everybody is going through something. And I just love that, that feeling and that vibe that, that created.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you so much. I, I love the way you just put that cause yeah, that's, I, I don't think I ever really thought of it specifically that way when I was writing it, but yet that, that really is what it's about. That every everybody's got their own story and, um, Stan is not, not really going to find it out with everybody, but she is going to get little, little glimpses of it and be able to think this is, this is what I can give you in my brief interaction with you.
Speaker 4:So I do, I also want to talk about the idea of voice, um, because that's the, you know, it's one of those writer terms that comes up a lot and like editors and agents are always saying, I, I love a strong voice. And you're like, well, what does that mean? And, Oh, well, I know it when I see it, which is like the most frustrating comment as writers. What does that mean? Um, but with your books, I feel like you're one of those writers that I know it when I see it, like, I just, I love the way that you use language, uh, and, and the little details that you choose to incorporate. And you and I were talking before we started the recording about this idea of like the stories being both dark and whimsical, um, which you just capture so perfectly. And, and I find really inspiring, uh, for my own writing as well. So I just would love to know when it comes to voice and when it comes to like wordplay and word choice, do you feel like that's something that you've worked intentionally to cultivate, um, and or how would you recommend if somebody is maybe struggling to find their writing voice or develop their voice? What would you suggest?
Speaker 3:So I'll add the, the usual caveat before I say this is that every, every writer's process is different. And this is, this is my specific specific process for me. If something about voice isn't working, it's usually because something about the story isn't working, it means I don't, I don't know the character enough. Um, sometimes I don't know the setting enough. Um, I don't know how the, how the character interacts with the, with the worlds around them. So a lot of it is about knowing enough about this character and their world to know how they see the world, how they see both the world that they move through from day to day, and also how they, how they see the world outside that world that they're moving within. And a lot of that for me, is about what characters notice, what they, what they up on, what stands out to them and knowing what characters notice. If I can figure that out about a character, then I know I can, I can figure out a lot about how they see the world and that starts to start to help their voice come into focus for me. Because when I, when I know what they're paying attention to, what they're ignoring, what they want to ignore, but can't, then that goes a long way in helping me know that character enough to hear their voice
Speaker 4:You do when you're struggling to get to know the character on that
Speaker 3:Level. So what'll happen with me sometimes is that I'll be able to, I'll be able to hear the character's voice, I'll know certain things about how they see the world, but I won't necessarily know why. And that's something I'm thinking about right now, as I'm, as I'm working on, um, on a revision for a book that's gonna come out next year. And it was sort of that process of thinking like, okay, what, don't, what don't I know about this character. And once I, once I started getting to know that it, it all started to make more sense. So sometimes figuring out how that, how that character came to see the world, the way that they do. That's, that'll, that'll get me closer to, to knowing that character in the way I have to, to know how they'll, how they'll move through the story, how they'll make the choices they're gonna make.
Speaker 4:So I have a running theory, um, having now talked to, I dunno, what I'm up to like 60 authors or something, um, in these podcast interviews, um, I've started to notice a trend and I'm gonna, I'm going to test my trend against you. Um,
Speaker 3:Oh no. I, I feel a weird amount of pressure. Okay. Let me see what happens.
Speaker 4:I'd love to send the person that breaks the trend because, you know, it was just the fact I'm just fascinated by process and how our brains work. Um, before I go into what my theory actually is, um, two questions, are you a plotter or a pantser and do you write a fast first draft or a slow first draft?
Speaker 3:Okay. Well, an answer to the first question I appear to be both, because I look like an outliner because I will meticulously outline my first draft, but then I'll realize about halfway through that. I need to throw out the entire map because it's not working anymore because the story has gone in different directions. Um, and I also think, I probably look like a pantser because I have to, I usually have to rewrite my books at least once, um, major, major rewrites sometimes, uh, sometimes a couple of times. Um, I'm kind of, I'm kind of refining my process with each, with each book, like figuring, figuring out how to get closer to, to like, getting to that, getting to that character and getting to what's going on in their world a little bit, a little bit faster than I used to be able to. But I'm someone who I look like. I look like a plotter because I, I like doing all that ahead of time. I have to know one way a story can end, but I think I probably, I probably also look a lot like a pantser because I'm not overly attached to that particular ending. I'm not overly attached to that particular version of the story. I just have to be able to know that there could be an ending for the story, even if it's going to turn out completely differently.
Speaker 4:Just for the record, I relate to everything you just said so hard. I'm glad I'm really speaks to a lot of things I'm going through right now.
Speaker 3:So glad it's not just me. I will always, I will always start my outlining with the best of intentions and think this is, this is it. This is the outline to end all outlines. Nothing will have to change. And of course, halfway through, I thought, okay, you're just doing the thing again, where you, you have to, you have to figure out one way it can end. It's not going to end this way. That's okay. You're gonna, you're gonna figure out how it should end. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Um, yeah. I also end up rewriting everything like that first draft. It just never sticks. Um, okay. And then the other question was, and then I guess I'll ask, do you write your first draft quickly? And what about that second draft when you have to rewrite the whole thing? Is that a fast process or, I mean, generally speaking, I know we all kind of write at different rates and speeds, but do you feel like you're a fast drafter or not so much?
Speaker 3:I don't know what exactly what exactly fast draft,
Speaker 4:Like, do you do the native Ramo? No. Out in a month.
Speaker 3:I am. I am a proud member of the, has attempted NaNoWriMo 10 times and never gotten to 50,000 words club. There, there are a few of us, a few even who have exceeded the number that I've tried, but I've, I've never been able to do that in a month. Usually the drafting takes me a little longer and then the revision processes will get faster and faster, even, even when I have to totally rewrite a book a couple of times, um, those rewrite processes will get faster just because I, I think some of it is process of elimination. I know what the story isn't. So, and in that, in that first draft, there are things that I, there are things that I love about writing that first draft, but also the story could be anything. There has been very little process of elimination at that point.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, I, I feel what you're saying. Um, okay. Well, I feel like your, your answers have left me fairly neutral. I don't feel like you pushed my theory one direction or the other. Um, so in talking to so many writers, I've noticed this pattern where writers that, that I feel fall into this, this category of really lush, almost poetic writing, um, of which I would put you in that category. Um, so many of them tell me that they tend to be more pantsers than plotters. Um, so don't really usually subscribe to an outline so much and that they tend to write really like slow, meticulous first drafts. Um, but I, I feel like you sound like you're kind of in the middle on both of those things. So
Speaker 3:I have neither proved nor disproved.
Speaker 4:All right. Fair enough. Again, we're all different. I know that there's no, there's no like, magical way to be like this person writes a book this way. Okay. We are now going to wrap this up with our happy writer bonus round. First question. What book makes you happy?
Speaker 3:What book makes me happy? This could be a lot of different answers on a lot of different days, but right now I'm going to say the little Prince.
Speaker 4:How do you celebrate an accomplishment?
Speaker 3:Usually it involves, it involves moving around in some way, because I kind of can't sit still. So either I'll walk around learning a new song on my recorder, or I'll, I'll play with my I'll play with my ribbon wand. Um, I did rhythmic gymnastics for a while back there. Um, or I'll I'll do Irish dancing or something. I just really, I really like to move. I can't sit still.
Speaker 4:That is one of the best answers to that question. I think I've ever heard. I need to get myself a ribbon wall.
Speaker 3:Yeah, highly. I highly recommend the minus minus rainbow. They come in many different companies. I recommended liberatory. Okay.
Speaker 4:My girls, they love to play with ribbons. Like we'll just bring out the big box of wrapping ribbons and they have made their own little ribbon wands and it starts with like one ribbon. And then the next time I look over and they've each got 30 ribbons attached to this tech, it was like, go for it.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love that. That's fabulous. Just making the rainbow.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no kidding. Uh, let's see. Where, what advice would you give to help someone be a happier writer,
Speaker 3:Follow the shiny objects. And by that, I mean, the, the stories that are shiny to you, the stories that are sparkly to you and that's, those are going to be different for you than they are than they are for anyone else. And that that's part of what makes them, the stories that the stories that you have to write and the stories that are, are going to light you up as you, as you do the work of writing them and revising them and making them the stories that you want them to be.
Speaker 4:What are you working on next?
Speaker 3:So right now I'm working on, um, my two books that are going to come out in 2022. The first one comes out in March, 2022, and it's called Lake lore. That's the one that, um, I talked about revising earlier, earlier in the podcast. So what I can tell you as this continues to undergo the revision process is that this is, this is a story about, um, two non-binary teens who are both neurodivergent. And I, I think it's, I think it's kind of going to be a romance about non-binary identity and neurodivergence
Speaker 4:Love it. I'm always in for more romance. Lastly, where can people find you?
Speaker 3:So you can find me on Twitter at LA Ana, Marie L a a N N a M a R I E, or my website, which is Ana Marie macklemore.com. Okay.
Speaker 4:I will say it threw me for a loop that you're not on Instagram.
Speaker 3:I know I get that a lot. I think the reason I'm not is, um, speaking of rabbit holes, a couple of reasons. One is because I will fall into the, the rabbit hole of pretty pictures and never come out. And I think that, um, the other one is that I, like, I barely keep up with, with Twitter. I love coming on there once in a while, but I'll just, I'll just forget to log on to Twitter and Twitter. And I thought, okay, you, you don't, you don't get your Instagram until you're on Twitter. More consistently.
Speaker 4:I can see that I, after I, um, joined Instagram, which I was a pretty late joiner, um, considering, uh, but I like immediately abandoned Facebook and Twitter. I was like, I did not have time for all of this. And this is the prettiest one. So we're over here now.
Speaker 3:I, I totally get that, but that's also why I have to be very, very cautious because there's, there's so much pretty there. I might, you might never find me again.
Speaker 4:I know. I know. And we do need to like, you know, write books and stuff.
Speaker 3:Right, right. Books that we make the inspiration boards for. Right.
Speaker 4:Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me. This was, this was lovely. And I was, I was so thrilled to get to chat with you.
Speaker 4:And I was too. I like we were saying before we started the recording that it has been years, at least, I don't know, definitely pre COVID time. It feels like it's been years since we used to see each other. So I'm glad that we could do this.
Speaker 3:I am too. Thank you so much
Speaker 4:Readers. Be sure to check out the mirror season, which comes out this week. Of course, we always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore if you can. But if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy and cozy in your bunkers and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little
Speaker 1:[inaudible].