Marissa chats with Leigh Bardugo about her new fantasy novel - RULE OF WOLVES - as well as how it's okay to feel like we're in over our heads with our writing projects, and how these challenges can be a sign that you're on the right path; lots of wonderful craft-talk, including tips on developing backstories, coming up with that just-right metaphor, and writing death scenes that stir up real emotions (hint: melodrama is not the enemy); how social media can impact our mental well-being and that it's okay to pull back when you need to; and - drum roll please! - the upcoming Netflix adaptation of Shadow and Bone!
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Order The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond https://bookshop.org/a/11756/9781250362377
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa chats with Leigh Bardugo about her new fantasy novel - RULE OF WOLVES - as well as how it's okay to feel like we're in over our heads with our writing projects, and how these challenges can be a sign that you're on the right path; lots of wonderful craft-talk, including tips on developing backstories, coming up with that just-right metaphor, and writing death scenes that stir up real emotions (hint: melodrama is not the enemy); how social media can impact our mental well-being and that it's okay to pull back when you need to; and - drum roll please! - the upcoming Netflix adaptation of Shadow and Bone!
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Order The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond https://bookshop.org/a/11756/9781250362377
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I'm your host Murcia. Myra, thanks for joining me. One thing that has been making me happy this week, it's a big one. The COVID vaccine. It's a, here I am not yet eligible to get it, but my parents have gotten it. My in-laws have gotten it. A lot of people that I really love have gotten it. And I didn't realize how freaked out I still was about this pandemic until this moment. Uh, and so it's felt like this weight off my shoulders. And here we are one year into this whole situation. And I feel like there is finally light at the end of the tunnel. And any day now we are going to be emerging from our bunkers, like little butterflies emerging from our cocoons. And I am just delighted about it. So yay science go science. And of course you guys know how happy I am to be talking to today's guest. She is the number one New York times bestselling author of the shadow and bone trilogy. The six of crows. Duology the language of thorns wonder woman, war bringer, and ninth house, which was awarded the good reads choice award for best fantasy novel of 2019. Her Grisha verse books are in development with Netflix and the shadow and bone TV series is coming out in April. That is so soon, and I'm so excited. Her newest novel rule of wolves, which comes out tomorrow on March 30th, completes the King of scars. Do ology. You guys have been hearing me gush about her all year long, and I am so excited to have her here, please. Welcome Liebert Hugo.
Speaker 3:Hello. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:Thank you for being here. I know you are a busy lady. You're in hot demand.
Speaker 3:I, um, I love you're like you're so cheerful and it, I feel like a little storm cloud who has wandered in here
Speaker 2:And it reminds
Speaker 3:Me of, there was a picture somebody took of us on tour once where you are, it looks so beautiful and you're smiling and glowing. I'm sitting next to you, like just with this grumpy resting and I've always spelled it encapsulated as perfect.
Speaker 2:That's funny. You and I, we are a little yin and yang. Yes, it works. So I think we have a nice balance. Yes. Right. Lee, why don't we kick things off, um, with you telling listeners about your new duology King of scars and rule of wolves. So King of scars,
Speaker 3:Uh, picks up about a year after the end of the six of crows duology and it, it, it involves characters from the shadow and bone trilogy, and the six of crows duology. You can start with King of scars. I did everything I could to make it possible for people to enter into this duology without previous knowledge of the Grecia verse, but I will say, um, I think your experience will be richer if you have some familiarity with degree shippers. Um, can you, scars is a story of a young King who is, uh, fighting some very real demons and attempting to rule a country that has been badly damaged, uh, by a civil war that he carries scars from as well. It's also the story of, uh, uh, Grecia known as the storm, which Azalea, New Zealand skate and, uh, Nina Zanuck, who is a spy for Roth CTCA and is, uh, trying to cope with some of her own grief. And, uh, if you don't like to start series until they're complete, you pick the right time because we'll evolves comes out on March 30th. And, uh, I don't know if I'll write more integration shorts, but I definitely wrote this one as a finale. So I hope people
Speaker 2:Enjoy it. Well, I know I enjoyed it. I've enjoyed all of your books and this one was, it felt like a long, long wait for this one, but it was worth it. I do love a cliffhanger. Yeah, no, I know. And I understand I am also a big fan of the cliffhanger, but as a reader, it can be a little torture.
Speaker 3:I know. And I like to say, I'm sorry, but I am not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Fair enough. Um, so, you know, I'm a huge fan of your books and your writing. Uh, so there's so many things I want to talk about and ask about a lot of craft things that I just really admire you for. I think you do so many things just splendidly. One of the things that has always kind of stood out to me from your books as being like a hallmark of a LIBOR Dugo book is that every character we meet has a backstory and not just the main players and the viewpoint characters, but even like just these minor walk on characters who are only there for a chapter or a page or a couple of paragraphs, there's always these lush detail surrounding them. That makes it clear. They have a whole history and a whole life outside of this story. And I just love that because I can get really lazy with my minor characters through. I just feel like that's so impressive. So is that something that you work to cultivate that you're, you're trying to bring to the surface? Or how does that happen for you?
Speaker 3:Well, first of all, thank you for all the kind words. I feel very bullied by all this praise. And I'm glad to hear that about the secondary characters. I think that, or really, I guess, tertiary or I don't know what, what level we've gotten to, but, um, look, I, I don't think I don't sit there and write biographies for every character who comes onto the page and, you know, some characters, even the characters who essentially operate as cannon fodder. And I'm thinking specifically of, um, red Vanko from, um, the prologue to crooked kingdom, um, you know, you want the character, the audience to be as invested as they possibly can be in that character, even if he just appears for a chapter and to be wondering, you know, are we going to see them again? Um, how will, what does this person, how does this person's feet impact the story? And in general, I think, you know, character is the thing that ties somebody to a book. You can do all the beautiful world-building you want, you can have as many plot twists as you want, but it's not remotely meaningful unless it's seen through the lens of a compelling characters eyes. Um, and I think that the reason that I think I like to develop these characters and the way they become developed is really because I am in somebody else's point of view. So Nina at the start of King of scars is working as a, at a, at a fish, uh, fish stall, very glamorous job, gutting fish, uh, on the docks in Gerald home. And, or I guess she's an Eling. And, um, but what you don't realize is that she is working undercover and you quickly meet her contact. And you know, what is Mina thinking about this person in this moment? It's very rare that we encounter someone and have no thoughts about them. Even somebody you meet at the, you know, a clerk at the grocery store or a, you know, somebody who you, who you think you will never see again, you instantly are parsing them and trying to understand them, or at least I am. And so I think, um, my characters tend to, uh, be in high-risk situations. And so consequently are analyzing everything in front of them through their own lens. And so that's why we're getting a little more detail on, on these characters that I hope brings them to life for the audience too.
Speaker 2:No, I, that's a brilliant way of thinking of it, that it is, of course, you're writing from multiple points of view and everyone has special glasses that they see the world through. And I'm going to notice something about one person and you're going to notice something different about that person. And that's a fascinating way to think about it
Speaker 3:Very much so. And I think that you see that, I think it's actually emerges very clearly in rule of wolves because, um, Nina and Zoya and Nikolai all have a very similar goal, right? They all are very they're, they're trying to do the best for their countries, but they have personal goals that sometimes interfere with those things. And they also have very different worldviews. So Zoya greets everything as if it's as a potential threat. Like that is the way she has learned as a survivor to deal with the world. Mina is fundamentally a spy and a spectacular actress. And so she is, uh, constantly, uh, digging into the motives of the people around her and, uh, wondering sort of inquiring as to how much information they have or how they can be useful to her. And Nikolai is a much more generous viewpoint. He is somebody who was going to give people the benefit of the doubt most of the time.
Speaker 2:So that's a great segue into the idea of larger character development and voice. Um, and you have written from the points of view of so many different characters, and yet it's as a reader, it's really easy. I mean, obviously at the start of each chapter, you tell us who's head we're in, but I'm never falling out of somebody's head. I never feel like, you know, Oh, this is Lee talking, it's all, this is Nikolai, or this is Nina or whoever it is. So is that, how do you, or what do you do to develop these characters, to get their voices to sparkle so much? And I'll try to really, what do you do when a character isn't speaking to you and you're struggling to find that voice?
Speaker 3:Well, I think that, okay. So I think I'm going to repeat this so many times, uh, revision is the secret to how these things happen. These voices are not as clear or consistent in the early drafts of the book. Uh, and I think that my voice creeps in a lot more in those early drafts. Um, when I wrote six of crows, you know, I had written the first trilogy shadow and bone trilogy, and first person POV. When I wrote six of crows, I moved to third and what we call close third, where we really, when we're in their heads, we only know what that character knows. And, um, and I, my editor at the time Noah Wheeler kept, she would say, you know, I'm losing, she would Mark specific paragraphs. She would say, I'm losing Jesper here. Or, you know, who is this? Who's talking right now. And for me, this was a skill I really had to build up where, uh, I would, you know, where I learned, had to learn to catch myself. Um, and it's very easy to do, especially because if you're dealing with exposition or description, you know, you, it's easy to, to fall back into your own voice or into simply a kind of narrator's voice. But the way I weed those out is through revision and through reading my characters out loud, um, I read all of my drafts out loud. It's incredibly tiresome, especially you mean, you know, when you are in, you know, the fourth best six revision of a book, like wherever you are, when you're getting to copy it, add some first pass, and you're saying tired, the book is 600 pages long. It's very long consider the perfect length for a book. I do. Whenever I start a novel, my goal is always to write a 400 page book and it never, I understand that problem. I'm familiar with that problem, you know, I, and it really becomes when you're in revision. And, and it's quite scary when you're on deadline because you don't, if you take your work seriously, you don't want to let things fall through the cracks. And it's so easy to miss things in revision, but that is definitely when character voice really starts to land. And I think you can tell, um, when you're reading, when you start to really fall into the rhythm of the character, you, you physicality, I think even changes. Like I find myself leaning into a character's voice when it's really working. And so I think, you know, uh, what I try to do is then lean into those moments and say, okay, what's, what's locking in here. This is, this is the touchstone that is going to, that needs to be what I come back to every time to keep that character's voice, um, from deviating. Um, and I think, you know, some characters arrive, speaking loud and clear, um, and others take a little while to get there. And there's usually sort of one moment or one bit of dialogue that suddenly locks that character in for me. Um, and, and for me, like in six of crows for Nina, Nina was very boring. And the first draft, she was almost like a cipher or the plot was just kind of happening to her, which if, you know, I love her character and who she became, but she didn't arrive fully formed. And it wasn't until I was really working on the first scene that she shares with Kaz and she sort of toes her slippers off and lets her public persona drop. And she's so hungry. And she starts to eat this cake and caste says, you know, you have crumbs on your cleavage. And Nina just says with her mouth full, I don't care. I said only was like, ah, Nina Zanuck has arrived like this girl, like this is, I suddenly felt myself. You know, you can't see me, but I'm sort of doing this kind of like rambling into the chair. Um, you know, that feeling at the end of the day. And I thought this, this is how this woman moves through the world with, with a tremendous sense of pleasure and confidence. And she locked in for me. And so I think I'm always looking for those moments with particular characters, um, and then using that, returning to them again and again. So that brings up a great
Speaker 2:Question for me that I remember having back when I was reading six of crows. So you started with this trilogy, um, you know, which first person trilogy, and then for your second go at a series, you decide to have six main characters and, and six unique points of view, six subplots happening all at once. Was there ever a moment where you regretted that decision?
Speaker 3:Wow. Six months we called it a moment.
Speaker 2:Ambitious.
Speaker 3:Isn't it funny though? I think, I think as writers, we're always setting a new challenge for ourselves and yes, there were many moments in the writing of six of crows. When I thought someone smarter than me should write this book. I can't do it. I don't know how and I, and I didn't because I'd never done it before. Um, and a lot of the things that I, you know, a lot of my experience with highest, I had written read some, you know, heist and con books, but a lot of it came from film and the tricks that work for heist in film and television do not work, uh, in a novel. It is it, but you need to still extract the same pleasure that people get from, from, from the twists and turns of a con or a heist, uh, on the page. So it was an incredible challenge and they frequently felt like I was failing. And it was a book that, you know, the way I always think about it is, you know, when you get an idea for a novel, you fall in love, inevitably, you're going to fall out of love with that story. And the question is where in the process will you fall back in love? And sometimes for me, it's, you know, Oh, after I've just cracked that first draft and with, but with others, like six of crows, it took many revisions to finally fall back in love with that story and to feel like I was doing it justice. And it was quite terrifying, honestly.
Speaker 2:Well, I think I know for me, and I'm sure for a lot of listeners and a lot of aspiring writers, it's comforting to hear someone talk about that it is difficult. And we do set ourselves up with these challenges that seemed like such a great idea at the outset. You're just like, what was I thinking? But to know that it turned out into, it turned into such a treasure, you know, by the end is, it's nice. It's nice to hear that you didn't get better at it.
Speaker 3:You know, I could not have written crooked kingdom, which is this kind of little matryoshka doll of cons. You know, it's con on top of con, top of con that could not have happened if I hadn't written the ice court highest in six of crows. And when I was setting out to write Wolf wolves, I had put, I don't want to spoil King of spires, but, you know, I had a situation where I had, where I really was going to have to write a lot of like court intrigue and machinations. And I was like, I don't care about court intrigue. And then I suddenly realized that this character actually is in a state of conning everyone around her all of the time and how delightful that was. And that I knew exactly how to write a con like that. And then it got really fun because it was, you know, uh, little tiny Heights and, and grand cons that were all being executed, um, from this one character's point of view. And that was, you know, sort of finding the thing that, that you do know how to do and letting it be your anchor, as you try to struggle with the things you don't know how to do can be very effective.
Speaker 2:No, that's a great point. I do wonder. So if somebody is listening to this, uh, let's say, uh, aspiring writer, you know, working on a novel and they have an idea and they're so excited for it, but they also feel like they've maybe bitten off more than they could chew. What would you say to them?
Speaker 3:Um, I mean, I would say, look, you're supposed to feel that way. Okay. Our culture doesn't really teach us how tough creativity is. You know, we think of creativity and of the creative life as these big bursts of inspiration that then propel us to a finished product, but that's really not how it works. Writing a novel means sitting with the discomfort of something, not living up to your expectations for a very long time, which isn't to say there won't be good days when you feel like, yes, the story isn't spooling in front of me and I am a genius, but you will have probably a lot of days where you do feel like you're failing and like the idea's too big for you. And all I can offer is that one do not compare you. And this is a fight. It's a fight I engage with all the time. Do not compare your first draft or your second draft or your third draft to your favorite novels. One of the curses, the curse of being a writer is that you're a reader too. And if you're a reader, you know what good writing is. And so when you sit down to write that first structure, like, I know what good writing is. This is not, it don't, you know, you must not compare those early drafts. What is the final revised, perfected and polished draft of your favorite book? So let yourself off the hook as much as you possibly can to preserve your confidence, to preserve your momentum. And then the second thing is that, you know, when you have those moments, when you feel discouraged, when you feel like you've bitten off more than you can chew, how does assign not that you were on the wrong path, but that you're on the right path, okay. That you are trying to do something bigger and better than you've done before. And those moments of struggle and how you face them are what are going to separate the amateur from the professional and the published author from the unpublished author and the finished manuscript from the unfinished manuscript, you have to learn to sit with that discomfort and that understanding that it will not be right for a long time. And all you can do is write a scene, right? The beginning of a scene, write a sentence bit by bit by bit and trust the process to get you where you need to be in that first draft. So that then you have something to work with in the dress, the follow up
Speaker 2:As all such good. Good. Okay. I want to go back to kind of craft more like craft focused things again. Um, another thing that to me is a hallmark Lee bar. Do you go thing, and maybe it's not in every one of your books, but certainly a number of them have really heart wrenching character deaths. And part of me is like, maybe this is a questionable career decision, but they're so good. And I know I'm not the only one who has cried a number of times in reading your books. But I also know that writing death scenes are really hard. So without, of course, spoiling, we don't want to give anything away from people who haven't read your books yet, but what, how do you approach a death scene and, and how, what is, what is kind of, what are some of the strategies that you use to bring in that emotion, but also steer clear of like mellow drama, which is, I feel we're kind of a lot of us naturally want to go,
Speaker 3:Um, look on the first draft steer directly into that model,
Speaker 2:Crash your boat upon the rocks of melodrama.
Speaker 3:Again, you know, revision where, what I find in the process of writing a really deeply emotional scene is that I can't hide from it. And the early drafts, there may be, you know, some, some real emotion. But I think, especially when I'm talking about death, you know, I lost my father 10 years ago. Um, when he was very young, he was only in his fifties. Um, my partner lost their mother, um, this past October. Um, you know, most of us have some experience with grief or loss. And I find that I have to dig into those things when I'm writing these moments. Um, one of my characters in King of scars is burying someone that they care about deeply, uh, in, in one part of the story. And it was just so painful to write because, because it meant what grief actually means. And all I can offer is that it's usually a pretty emotional experience for me in the revision process. Um, but I do want to cause the reader, um, and I, and I that'd be cause otherwise I haven't done my job. Um, I want you to care about this character, even if the character is a villain or an antagonist, I want you to, um, to in this moment feel this loss. Um, and when I kill off and the thing that always gets to me is I'll, I'll often get messages and say, you know, this person didn't deserve to die or whatever. I was like, I can't help, but think, you know, who does, you know, except for a very few and they never get it. I, you know, they never had none of the ones to die. Young. You asked a few ideas, I don't really have a list, but you know, who does deserve, you know, death when it comes. And to me that is something that figures very prominently in my books. I know that people want heroic deaths or deaths that make sense, but I find that death is often arbitrary and cruel. And, um, it is really left to the people behind who need to make sense of it in terms of craft. What you're really, again, this comes back to character because we are witnessing this death, usually from the perspective of a character we already know, and hopefully are invested in. And so the loss has to be specific to them and their own experiences and their own view of the world. And so I think that's where that sort of deep connection comes from. Um, but yeah, it's, it is emotional, but I think that there are, you know, emotion often catches me by surprise when I'm writing a draft and I suddenly realize, Oh, that's why I was telling this particular story at this particular time, how often do you make yourself cry in drafting? Very rarely in revision repeatedly. And that is an embarrassing admission because I really laugh at authors who said that, I thought it was so obnoxious. Oh, I'm such a genius. I've made myself cry. I thought, what kind of chump does that? And then catch me sobbing my laptop. And it won, was writing. Um, I was writing a death scene and I was crying as I wrote it. And one of my friends was in the living room and she said, what's wrong? I said, this is so sad. And she said, you're writing it. I was like, I know a little glutton for punishment.
Speaker 2:You got it. Right.
Speaker 3:Like if I feel like you've got to you kind of shy away from those things, if you're not somebody who is, I'm somebody who's, their emotions are sort of always, um, at the forefront, I'm an Aries. I am a, you know, a very ferocious person. Um, I have a quick temper, I cry so easily. I cry at commercials. I cry at songs, you know, I will see a dog on the street and be like, adorable. I mean, I am a mess of humans, so it's not surprising that I would cry at these things, but those emotions are very accessible. And I think that they're useful and they tell me that I'm doing something right. And I don't just mean in terms of tears. Like there are moments and I, I suspect, you know, you write very action, heavy books where you're like, I get the chills when an action scene is working. Right. Like I feel in that moment, like about us. And I feel sort of, um, I feel dangerous in that moment, even though I am not, I'm sitting in my pajamas, you know, with my, my complete lack of cardio or training at all, I do feel, I feel that thrill. I feel that adrenaline, like you, you key into that again, that's a touchstone. You want that feeling when you're reading or writing, you would want to feel those emotions because that, again means that you're getting something right. And as you get into deeper revision, you will lose that because you will be fiddling about and dealing with technical things. So you need to remember what made you fall in love with a moment of fight, scene a story. Um, so that, so that you can restore you and get you through, because I always have this moment. I don't know if you do, when I'm in one P and for the first pass at Duke, I don't know if your, um, listeners will, the first pass is basically like, it's the first time you see the book laid out. Um, the way it will look on the page. And every time I do first, pass it in. Wow. We should not publish this book. I always have this moment where I'm like, Nope, this is a bad idea. I don't know who was drunk and decided that we should publish this book, but we should definitely not. And some moments you need to remember what brought you to the story in the first place?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I have those moments. Yeah. Usually in first pass, usually by the time it's designed and it's been through multiple drafts and I see it laid out like a book. That's usually my first moment where I feel like, okay, this isn't half bad. Like it's too late to pull the rip cord in charge of this. Who's driving this boat
Speaker 3:Exactly how I felt. And I remember actually the first one I went, when we signed my first book deal, you and I were the same debut a year. And I remember the morning after we had made the deal, I thought, Oh, they're going to change their minds all just completely, like they were caught up in this and they're going to call me today and be like, Hm, regrets. Oh, yes. This is the way my brain works. I call it disaster origami, like any good thing that happens. I'm like, watch me, watch me turn it into a Swan of misery.
Speaker 2:Oh, of course they didn't. And you've now gifted the world with so many fabulous stories on you. But I know, I totally know what you mean by those, the doubts that never go away. I keep thinking at some point I'll hit a moment in my career where I'm like, no, I'm good. People like me. I must have a talent for this or something. And Nope, it never quite quite gets there.
Speaker 3:You know, I think in some ways it serves us well. Like I would love to have, I w I frequently think how delightful it would be to be shameless for awhile, you know, to just not have. And I mean, that quite literally shameless, like to not have that voice in my head and how much work I could get done if I didn't have this internal critic. But I think as authors, we are consistent wherever you are at whatever stage of career, whether it's aspiring or, you know, debuting or longtime publishing. We are asked to walk this very weird tight rope between these kind of delusions of grandeur that we require in order to draft a book to say, I have an idea in my head that should be consumed by many people, um, you know, to, to have those delusions of grandeur that allow you to get through a draft of the kind of audacity required to get through a drought. And then the abject humility that is required for revision to be able to say, I got this wrong, or I need to fix this, or I can do better. Um, you know, and to have somebody else tell you that, ideally, if you have a good editor, you know, I often talk to young writers and they will ask me, you know, how much does an editor make you change as if it's an adversarial relationship? And certainly I think there are some author editor relationships that are adversarial, but in my experience, you want an editor who is invested enough to give you real notes and real feedback, and to push you and challenge you, because that is the way the story gets better. And, and the worst possible thing you could have is an editor who gives it a cursory read and says, looks good. Let's go. Right,
Speaker 2:Right. No, you really want to feel like you have someone who has your back and who's looking out for you and for the book and, and really pushing it to be as good as it can be.
Speaker 3:Yes. I mean, I was lucky enough to have the same editor on my first five books. And, and she was just a very like rigorous it, you know, and, and not, I love curmudgeons. Like, I'm one of those gluttons for punishment is like, you give me no praise. I will find way to extract praise for me. Like, I am all about earning the grumpy person's praise. And, but, you know, frequently I not there yet, not there yet, not there yet. And, but because of that, I think that I've become a better guardian of my own work. And I, and I will push, you know, I will try harder to find not just the first metaphor that comes to mind, but the right metaphor and, and to seek out those places where the voice wobbles, um, and, and to shore up logic where, you know, sometimes I'll just sort of wave my hands and be like, it seems good enough, but you know, that editorial voice can definitely become a great ally in, in, in your process.
Speaker 2:Definitely. And I'm so glad you brought up metaphors, because that was actually one of my specific nitty gritty, weird craft things that I want to talk to you about because you write the best metaphors. And I mean, your books are just full of them. And every one of them feels like just a perfect little gem. Um, I actually wrote a few of them down, some of my personal favorites from this series. One of my favorites, I love
Speaker 3:Me. I require it to survive.
Speaker 2:And I know it's weird hearing your own writing in Nikolai's experience. Honesty was much like herbal tea, something well-meaning people recommended when they were out of better options. I love that. And then here's when he was the human equivalent of a head cold. So, um, okay. One more war was like fire sudden hungry and easiest to stop before it had taken hold there. Just so good.
Speaker 3:It's interesting that so many of these are Nicholi because he's a character who loves wordplay and who, um, who I think he thinks we silly, you know, he has a clever, he has a busy and clever mind. And so it is fun to write in his POV. Um, I will, how do I come up with them? I really don't know.
Speaker 2:Um, I knew going into this question that this is one of those ones, like an answer for this, but
Speaker 3:Okay. So sometimes I will use placeholder language. And so I don't recall exactly, but you know, it is completely possible that in the early drafts his descriptor, I believe that's a description of Andrick. Um, that Nikolai's description of Andrick was, um, you know, he was, he was, you know, gloomy or, uh, permanently depressed or, uh, you know, a little storm cloud as I described myself, you know, or, um, some kind of language that was less specific, you know, and that, that was maybe did not, did not seek to amuse. Um, and then in revision, you go back and you try to find, you tried to, and this, again, I think it comes back to character and voice to really hone in on the way the character thinks and speaks. And so, you know, to find the thing, you know, the entirety of the wolves is about stopping a war. And so finding a central metaphor for that was very important to me. Um, and also originally I wanted to call the book, the end of fire, um, and it, because, because it was about stopping more. So I think I'm always looking for these small turns of phrase. Um, and you just don't know where they're going to come from. Um, I remember, I remember when I was writing six of crows, there's a phrase Inez uses where she says, it's a phrase, her father taught her. It's a, Suli saying the heart is an arrow. It demands aim to like, uh, demands, aim to Lam. True. And I remember in the first draft, just writing what I wanted, the, the statement to express, you know, I, I, you need aim, you need a goal in order to achieve it. And then going back and finding the language to express that intent.
Speaker 2:Do you ever like, just in your day-to-day life and you're going about your business, do these metaphors ever come to you and you have like an idea file of things that you write down, or is it really when you're in the heart of revising that your pause and take a minute to think of, well, what, what is this like,
Speaker 3:I definitely have an idea file, uh, and it can be anything from a single line of dialogue, a joke, a description, you know, something that I saw that, that, that I thought of a way to describe, or that stuck with me for some reason, these thoughts, usually what I do is I record them on my phone and then I transcribe them to a kind of master document. And if there's a time when I get stuck or I'm looking for inspiration, I will go back and I will, um, rifle through that and see if anything sparks. Um, but sometimes, you know, this is the beautiful part of the mystery of writing and the terrifying part, because you wonder what if, what if, what if whatever reservoir these things are coming from runs dry? I think my favorite line I ever written was about, it was something storm Han set in CG and storm. He says, you know, Elena asks him who he is. And he says, my mother was the oyster and I'm the Pearl. And this is not a line that readers ever quote back to me, you know, this, not one of those that, something that shows up in pretty quote graphics or whatever. But for me, it was, it was precious because he just said it, he said it in my head. I didn't think about it ahead of time. I didn't, you know, there was no machination to it. It was truly this character just coming to life. And, and it was that to me, that kind of alchemy is so mysterious, but I am very grateful for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, those moments, the moments where the characters, just like, it's like a little sh the sun beam shining down on you and they're listening. And then you're like, where did you go?
Speaker 3:I think the best thing, if you want to develop, you know, the ability to write figurative language, that really only comes from reading, like you have to read broadly and, um, you know, and, and read books that are, um, that are language rich, I guess, is what I would say.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I hope you're not tired of talking about it because of course I have to ask about Netflix.
Speaker 3:I am not tired actually asked me at the end of this week when I,
Speaker 2:No, I know you're in hot promo season right now. Okay. At what point did it start to feel real for you or does it even feel real?
Speaker 3:Um, I think with the trailer release, and I know that's crazy because it's so late in the process. Um, but it really, it just sort of felt like something that was never going to come to be. And when we first, you have to remember, I sold the first option when the rights to shadow and bone back in 2012 to Dreamworks. And it went nowhere.
Speaker 2:The first one's about lunar Chronicles,
Speaker 3:We could have up to my thing and then not make it went nowhere. Um, and in fact, I'll tell you a little bit of Hollywood gossip. So what happened with, I knew that shadow and one was a long shot to get made anyway, because it's, you know, fantasy is so expensive to me. So it means, you know, a studio or a, you know, a streaming service, taking a huge gamble on something in a way that other stories are not the same kind of gamble. And if you don't throw money at it, you know, audiences know immediately. And it breaks the whole, um, idea of being transported to another world, another universe. So I knew that gentleman was a long shot, but then the executive who brought it in left, so it was dead in the water. But before that happened, we had a screenwriter who was assigned, and I guess they didn't like his first draft and he was feeling stung about it. And so he, he wrote this email to me telling me that shadow and bone was unadoptable. And he was this long explanation of how it was impossible to combine a coming of age story with a fantasy story. What you mean Lord of the rings or Harry Potter or any of them just to be done. It was so hurt. And I felt like, so like stung by this and Oh, no, my work is unadoptable, you know? And, and so this is, I used to hope somewhere, he is, you know, crying into a bottle of whiskey, but, um, but it was, you know, th that was where this process began. And so for me, there's always been this kind of like looking just don't know, and even, you know, my agent said to me, when we then sold the rights to basically, you know, five, six books of the Grecia verse to, um, Netflix, you know, it seemed like we had all this momentum and, you know, Eric Heisserer was working on the pilot and he said, you know, you, you, you just don't know until you're on your way to the premier. I was like, and I took that to heart because, you know, you don't want to anticipation, especially coming off of 2020, you know, anticipation feels almost dangerous to me now. It feels the end of the idea of planning, something of looking forward to something is almost daunting. So, um, yeah, so, you know, even when the actors were on set, even when we locked all of, uh, production and finally locked the episodes and the special effects on the music, I thought they'll just change their minds. Same as with the first pass. And it wasn't until that trailer was out there. And I remember when they sent it to me before, um, when we all got to watch it together, I, you know, they did a reaction video of the cast and people were like, where's your reaction video? And I'm like, my reaction video would have just been me sobbing for the full two and a half minutes. And I am not exaggerating. Like, I, as soon as that music came up and we saw that horse galloping for the fold, it was like, I just couldn't quite believe it. And I still, yeah, no, I wanted to cry watching the trailer, like on your behalf. I'm so happy. I'm so happy for you that it's getting made. And I'm so excited to watch it. Thank you. I mean, you never know, you never know how something will be received, and that is all completely out of my hands, but I do know how much love and care went into the work on this show. And I think I had a surprisingly lovely experience with the adaptation, which is not to say that there weren't, um, moments of shouting and, uh, frustration. And I certainly didn't always get my way. Um, but all that said, I always felt respected. And I don't think that's true for every author who goes into an adaptation process.
Speaker 2:No, definitely. And it is, it is hard. Of course, it's hard to explain to readers who they just love these books and they're so invested and, you know, have, have such heartfelt memories about reading the books. And for so many readers, they want to see things adapted into TV and movies, but it comes with, uh, a little bit of, but only if they don't ruin it, but only if they don't anything about it. Um, but of course we know that that's not possible. It's a completely different form of storytelling. And so you just kind of have to cross your fingers and hope for the best. I think I,
Speaker 3:I think that the thing that I feel best about and sort of most confident about moving into the, the show is that I think it was very, it kept the characters and their journeys intact. So even though the specifics of those journeys have changed a little bit and, uh, you know, and even though we have done this sort of weird thing with the timelines, because now we're meeting the crows, um, you know, much early, we didn't meet them in sh in the shadow and bone fellows, you, but now we are meeting them in this timeline. They still there's nothing. There was no moment. I don't believe when viewers will be watching this and say, that's all wrong. That's not something to Caz would do. That's not something that mal would do. That's not something that, I mean, we're calling him Kerrigan, but the dark line would do, you know, there's no, the, their core characters are very much intact. And so my hope is that it will provide people with something different from the books and that they'll always have the books to come back to and to experience, um, on their own. But they'll also have this new thing that still gives them the sort of, um, you know, joy and pleasure of those stories and those characters just with, uh, just a different medium. Sure.
Speaker 2:I hope so too. And I am super excited. I have it marked on my calendar. Can't wait,
Speaker 3:But set aside of the day, you know, I have not watched the final episodes. Um, I, you know, you I've seen many iterations of them, you know, you've watched them through many revisions and give notes and all those kinds of things, but I deliberately did not watch the final cuts with music. And I don't know the facts because I wanted to have the experience of watching it at the same time as my readers. So that'd be a strange and exciting day.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Are you going to do like a live stream on Twitter or something? Is there something
Speaker 3:I have not? I have absolutely no idea right now. I feel like I am just treading water and just trying to, to, to keep my head above the surface because, um, I have never, I have, I've never been this busy and in this particular way, I'm certainly been busy in a deadline kind of way where I was, you know, writing all day long and freaked out and exhausted and, and trying to meet a deadline, but this is very different. It's so many emails and zoom meetings. And, um, and I, I'm just not used to right now. I haven't made any big plans, but I will definitely do something to celebrate. Um, and I will honestly say that I'm a little bit, I have been pulling back from social media, um, which is something I recommend to all writers level. Um, you know, I can't engage in the same way that I used to there's um, it's not just the negativity. It's also sort of just the intensity and the quantity. And I miss the ease of interacting with readers and feeling that personal connection, but it has gotten a lot harder to maintain. Yeah,
Speaker 2:No, I, I feel that 100%. Yeah. I can also imagine with something like this, you know, the, the series releasing in that moment, there would be this inclination. I know at least for me, there would be this inclination to, you know, have a big publicity moment with it. And, you know, whether that's, you know, live streaming on Instagram or doing the big Twitter Fest or whatever it is on the other hand, it is such a huge moment in your career. And it's such a personal thing that I can also see wanting to kind of take a moment just to have for you in between you and this show. Um, and I think both are perfectly relevant.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I, I, don't, that's interesting that you say that because I definitely felt that like, I, my friends have been like, are we, you know, for vaccinated, can we do a watching party? And we could do it in some respects yard and, and on the one hand, I'm like, yes, you should do this. Like you should do this. And then on the other hand, my a little introverted soul just wants to kind of curl up and let this wash over me. Um, and I don't, you know, this is such an incredibly wonderful time and, and I'm trying it every moment to just be grateful for it and go with it. But you know, when you have a writer mind, it's hard to just let things happen. There's a desire to, to control everything. I have a question actually from a fan perspective, what's happening with the lunar Chronicles. I've always felt like it would be an incredible adaptation. I actually always sort of imagined it animated. Um, like what, is there movement on that? Or is it a Hollywood? We're just moving in circles?
Speaker 2:Um, the question of my life lately. Yeah. So we're in negotiations. This is going to be the fourth time that it's been sold. Um, and right now we have two companies interested. Uh, so we're, we're, we're back to that stage and fingers crossed that whoever ends up getting it will be the one that actually makes I want it to happen. I hope
Speaker 3:That is so frequently the journey of these properties of these stories. No, I think that we, we love the idea of, you know, our first book being so wildly successful, that it instantly is option. And then it's instantly adopted and we're involved every day and on set every day. And it's just not, that is a, a magical scenario that most authors will never get to experience. So, yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, no, and I, I remain an optimist. I think that it's definitely could still happen. I have not given up on it. Um, but also what you were saying before, you have to kind of maintain a little bit of cynicism because it's easy to get carried away with every new thing that happens. But the reality is that it's, it's not a for sure thing until it's a for sure thing.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes. Very much so,
Speaker 2:So, okay. Um, we are going to now wrap this up with our happy writer bonus round. What book makes you happy?
Speaker 3:Ooh. Um, probably how was moving castle by Diana and Jones. And I really love the audio book if I'm really sad or just going through a chaotic time. I love to just sit in or lie down and listen to it for awhile. So that's definitely a comfort, a comfort read for me,
Speaker 2:The ones on my list to read with my girls sometime soon.
Speaker 3:Oh, that'll be amazing. It's such a fascinating book because it means something different depending on what age you are when you read it. Like, I think it really, I call it the shapeshifter book.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good point. Oh, that makes me even more excited. What is your personal mantra?
Speaker 3:Grudge held. I am a spectacularly vindictive individual, but like, Kasberger did not come from nowhere. Let me tell you, but you know, my mom, my mom went to the doctor a few years ago and she saw what he had written in her report and it said patient is irritable, cantankerous and defined. And I thought, yes, that is, should be on the word. Dugo crest irritable, a little cantankerous and defiant. So I think that is my motto.
Speaker 2:Okay. On that note, what is one small thing that brings you a lot of joy? Oh, um,
Speaker 3:Does everybody say the great British bake-off
Speaker 2:No, but that's a great one. It brings me so much.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I would say it's a toss up between that, which for me is like just complete joy and peace or musubi is like my favorite comfort food. It's spam and rice, um, wrapped up in Nori and, um, I, that is my favorite comfort food. It brings me much joy.
Speaker 2:How do you celebrate an accomplishment? Ooh, with musubi. Um, um, that's a great question. So before that,
Speaker 3:Actually, even during the pandemic, um, when I finished a draft or I turned in a draft, my, my old ritual used to be to go to, um, this wonderful Korean spot that I used to live near. Um, and it closed down a few years ago and it felt like a huge loss of this wonderful ritual. Um, but now what I do is there's a boutique in, um, uh, Pasadena, that's called Goldbug and I talk about it frequently. There are wonderful little business and, uh, I'll usually purchase something from there for myself. Um, and I know the owners now and, um, they, they have a very strange range of things. Um, they support small artists, they run their shop almost like a gallery. And, um, it's meaningful to me, not just because they have beautiful things, but because it was a shop that quite candidly I couldn't afford to shop at for a very long time. Like I just couldn't, they have, you know, small things and affordable things. But, um, I, you know, I, I, even after I was published, I, I had no savings, really. I had come out of a very bad relationship and, uh, and left that relationship with no credit cards, no credit history, um, you know, which was all very deliberate on the part of the person who had kept me in that relationship. But I had to borrow money from my mother, um, in order to leave and to now be able to go to the shop and pick something out is, um, really incredibly magical to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. No, I understand that. Lastly, I know you said you were pulling away from social media, but where can people find you?
Speaker 3:Um, I am on Instagram mostly. Um, I try to post frequently, but I don't, I do my best. Um, but you can find me on Instagram as Elbar, Dugo just the letter, not like
Speaker 2:On Twitter
Speaker 3:Too, but I really it's really just an instance on Twitter. I, I really don't. Um, I don't read my mentions anymore and, uh, I don't, I don't really engage there anymore. I just, it was just one too many things. And, and also, I don't want to be heavy because we're the end of the show. But like, people call me me, they'll be like, Hey, why did you kill this character? Or what are you going to do this? And I'm like, I get that. This is like the language of fandom now. Or like, there'll be like, if you don't give us this ending, we'll kill you. And I'm like, I know you don't
Speaker 2:Mean that Hoby on me, but it
Speaker 3:Was having an impact on me. So I was like, I'm just done. And I read this anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, and you're not alone. I, I avoid Twitter anymore. I feel like it's, it's a little minefield. Uh, and I don't know. I feel like people have forgotten that there's somebody on the other end of the computer screen with Twitter.
Speaker 3:Yeah. The way I always described Twitter and honestly, social media in general is it's like, you're walking down a hallway and you're like high five high, five high five. And then every, so often somebody just falls off and punches you in the face. And it's like, sure, you spent days getting high fives. But what you remember is getting punched in the face and it makes you a lot less likely to want to walk down that hallway again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I understand. Um, on that note though, Lee, I love you. I give you all, I love you too. And thank you so so much for taking time for this podcast today.
Speaker 3:It is my pleasure. Thank you for the wonderful questions. It was so much fun to just like talk craft and books for awhile. And, um, and I will have my fingers crossed for you on the
Speaker 2:Thank you readers. Be sure to of course, watched shadow and bone on Netflix. When it comes out in a few weeks and check out King of scars and its CQL rule of wolves, which comes out tomorrow. Of course, we always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. Please subscribe and leave us a review on Google or Apple podcasts. You can follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast and give so much high fives until next time stay healthy and cozy in your bunkers and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little
Speaker 1:[inaudible].