Marissa chats with Lisa Fipps about her debut middle grade novel - STARFISH - as well as letting your instincts, not the market, guide your writing choices; why middle grade novels are uniquely positioned to give young readers tools for dealing with bullies and body image (among other things); deciding when to give closure or redemption to your antagonistic characters and when to leave things unresolved; the wonderful suggestion to keep a visual reminder of kind things people have said about your work for those days when you're feeling particularly discouraged; and how it is totally allowed to write your novel in verse. (Really.)
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa chats with Lisa Fipps about her debut middle grade novel - STARFISH - as well as letting your instincts, not the market, guide your writing choices; why middle grade novels are uniquely positioned to give young readers tools for dealing with bullies and body image (among other things); deciding when to give closure or redemption to your antagonistic characters and when to leave things unresolved; the wonderful suggestion to keep a visual reminder of kind things people have said about your work for those days when you're feeling particularly discouraged; and how it is totally allowed to write your novel in verse. (Really.)
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I'm your host, Marissa Meyer. Thanks so much for joining me. One thing that has been making me happy this week is a science project that the girls and I are doing for their homeschool. I thought it would be cool to raise Caterpillar's for the first time, which I have never done before. We're all learning so much, but they arrived here about a week ago and they come in these little plastic cups and they were tiny, like the size of a grain of rice. And here we are a week later and they've already grown into full on chubby furry Caterpillar's and day. Now they should be cutting up to the top and making their little cocoons. And I am so excited to watch them turn into butterflies. It has been super magical and the girls are super into it. They were so excited that we got them pets. Evidently this is pet worthy to them. Uh, so it has been a win-win for everybody. And that is making me super happy, this lovely spring time. And of course I am so happy to be talking to today's guest. She was formally an award winning journalist and is now a director of marketing fray, public library, her debut middle grade novel starfish came out last March. Please. Welcome Lisa FIPSE.
Speaker 3:Hello and thanks for having me today.
Speaker 2:Thank you for being here. I'm so excited. I loved this book. I cannot wait to talk about it. Why don't we kick things off with you telling listeners, what is starfish about?
Speaker 3:Uh, starfish is a middle grade novel inverse, and it's about a little girl named Ellie who is bullied. We listlessly because she is fat. And so her, this book is her journey that, um, the reader gets to go along with her. As she goes from internalizing all of the hatred people have for fat people to realizing she has a right to have a voice and to be seen and to be heard and to take up her space in the world.
Speaker 2:So the book is, uh, like 240 pages there about approximately, um, I started crying, I think on page three and did not stop crying until maybe like page 160. It was so emotional, this story and this character, uh, I can't imagine I'm not the first person to say that as something that you're hearing a lot these days,
Speaker 3:It is. And it's so funny because I keep thinking, darn it. I missed out on a marketing opportunity. I could have marketed like buy this book and you get a free box of like tissues with the starfish logo on it or something. Everybody's yeah. Everybody's like, this made me cry. I cried. And this one lady said, I literally finished up my box of tissues and I'm like, okay, sorry about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right. Oh, I know, but it's, I mean, obviously as writers that's, one of the goals is to get to those emotions in readers to make us feel something. And this book has it in spades. So what do you think it is about this book that is speaking to so many people on such a deep emotional level?
Speaker 3:I think there are a few things. I think, first of all, um, according to the CDC, 75% of people, 19 and older are fat or obese. And so, and I don't use the term obese because I think that's, it's almost an insult. Um, you know, if you're tall, you're tall, you just aren't, you know, wants to say tall, really tall, super, super tall, you know, so if you're fat, you're fat. So, um, I think when you try to put the label of obesity or sometimes morbid obesity, I think that you're just saying, Oh my God, these people are really big, you know, and it's like an insult. So I, I don't really like that term, but it's a CDC term. Um, but anyway, so if 75% of Americans are fat, they're in, they're probably didn't get there. Once they were adults, they probably have been fat all their lives or struggled with it, at least. And the statistics, I am not a numbers person. So numbers don't stick in my head too well. But, um, the statistics for children are about, I think don't quote me 24, 25% of kids. Um, so I think part of the reason it is hitting so many hearts is because people are fat and, um, this is what a fat person goes through. Ellie's story is not unique. My story is not unique. And it's interesting because on social media, I get a lot of private, private messages from people who read the book and they'll comment on it publicly, but then they share their personal stories with me, um, through the, uh, different, you know, private messages on the different platforms. And I've had people in their teens, twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, and seventies, email me about this. And these people have carried this pain for decades. And, um, so it's something that once it happens to you, it's, it stays with you, the words people say about your body are very damaging, you know, um, and people don't realize it's, it's interesting to see some of the, some people tell me the same stories over and over. It was, you know, I was in gym class and, or, you know, my chair broke and it ha and it wasn't because they were fat, it just broke, but because they were a little fat, you know what I mean? And so, um, and the nicknames that people got throughout their lifetime and that stuck, that, the nicknames that stuck. And, um, so I think that all together is part of it. And I think the other part is I was very truthful and honest. Um, you know, there's that old quote about, you know, writing is easy, you just open a vein, Right? And so I think though that, no, there's another quote to no tears in the writer, no tears in the reader. And there's a lot of tears shed living this life of mine and then writing about it. And so I think that being honest with people and being vulnerable and being completely authentic, resonates with people because, um, especially children, you don't except phoniness. I mean, children are the world's biggest phony detectors, right. I mean, they can smell phoniness, like bad tuna fish, they just smell it. And, um, so you need to be authentic. And I think one of the reasons why I get, I get this a lot, adults need to read this book. And, um,
Speaker 4:I was going to say that actually, it's not just for kids.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I think some people want adults to read it, so they know how to treat children who are fat, but I think, and plus to know that, you know, your words to children last a lifetime, not five seconds. Um, and I think that the other reason they say that without really realizing it is the children inside of them that were so wounded needed to hear. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's why it's so healing for them is because it's actually healing the inside of them. That is a wounded. And so I think coming through in a middle-grade format, it helps them heal in a way that, that they otherwise couldn't, if they just read like a self-help book, if that makes sense. So I think those things all kind of combined to make it this tear-jerker.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I mean, the, everything you just said, I relate to really strongly, so much of what is in this book. I relate to, um, also as someone who's, you know, struggled with my weight and was, was bullied and made fun of when I was, you know, Ellie's age and yeah, you're right. It is, of course you're reading about this character. And so on one hand, you're kind of in this safe space to be experiencing this, knowing that it's fiction at the same time, it's getting right at the heart of so many insecurities that so many of us carry around.
Speaker 3:I think that's the beauty of books is that they give you just enough distance to feel safe, to address big issues, whether it's body shaming or racism or whatever, it, it gives you chest enough distance that you can still breathe and not feel like you're reliving your trauma, but it gets you close enough that you can kind of heal or re-examine your trauma. Um, you know, I've, I've read a variety of books that on different issues and I'm like, Oh yeah, I didn't even realize that was an issue for me until you put it in those words. So now I understand. Yeah. Because, uh, my dad died when I was 13 months old. So I've often read books, you know, about the loss of a parent. And it gives me just enough distance that I can feel safe and secure. Like you said, to address the issue without feeling like I'm reliving the issue, but yet the, the just talking about it, you know, through the book gives me some healing or an, and sometimes insight or whatever, depending on the book. So yeah, you're right about that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm really curious what readers reactions are, uh, for readers who don't struggle with weight. Um, because I feel like so many of us, regardless of what it is, we all have insecurities. You know, we all have things that we're sensitive about. I think everybody knows what it's like to be bullied or teased on some level. And you know, of course this is a book about a fat girl, and that is what we're addressing. But my tells me that it's the sort of book that regardless of how much you weigh, regardless if that is something you've personally struggled with. I think so many people are going to find something in this character, in her story that they're going to relate to. And it's gonna, you know, bring out some of these really intense emotions. Is that, have you been hearing from readers on that level?
Speaker 3:Yeah, actually, um, I heard from a very tall lady, um, very tall. I, I know her personally and she, she is very tall and she had the same situations, you know, like, um, and so the whole time she was reading it, she just kind of naturally inserted her tallness in where ever Ellie was dealing with fatness. And, uh, another person commented because they were extra skinny as a kid and always got bullied because they were extra skinny, you know, and yeah, which, you know, um, it's, you know, body shaming for any reason is not acceptable, but, um, it's, it's, it's, it's very relatable. I think that's the thing about it. It's an, um, it's that it's not, even though it's written about a fat girl and it's about being fat, what happens to Ellie is translatable to anyone who's been made to feel small for any reason. And so I think that also is, is why it's hitting, you know, so many people on different levels. And then I've actually had people say, I didn't struggle with my weight as a kid, but I have as an adult. And so reading this book, kiss me whole new insight, you know, because it's like new to them being fat is new to them. Right. And they're like, Oh my God, you're right about all of this. And it's true, even for an adult. And then I've also had people say, you know, I've never struggled with my weight, but I have a sister who has, or a best friend who has, or a husband or a child who has, and they get a whole new insight into what it was like for them. And, um, the pain that they see their loved ones going through. So it has a broader audience, I think, than, um, most people would think for a middle-grade book. It ends up in a lot of adults hands.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I do. I mean, I hope that it reaches the sort of a claim that wonder did, um, because I got so much out of this book that I did from, from wonder and the, you know, remembering what I was feeling and going through when I read that book. Um, and you know, I think it's the sort of book that so many people and readers like we've already said will really relate to and carry around with them, uh, for a long time after finishing it. So, so I, that everybody listening to this go and pick up this book because that's a really, really beautiful and, and so worth it. Um, I want to talk about specifically the, your experience in writing this book, because you've been very open, um, that a lot of things that Ellie experiences were based on your own personal experiences, which I can only imagine was very difficult. Um, but I also wonder if there's maybe a therapeutic value to that. Um, so just maybe talk to me about how you maybe worked up the courage to tell this story or what it was like, actually putting these words on the page.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Um, so it really, it, it was a lot of different emotions actually. There was, um, there was a little bit of fear quite frankly, to, to write this, not, not so much write it, but get it out in public because, you know, there are so many people out there that are so, so anti-fat that my fear was like, then I would get this onslaught of, you know, um, posts on my social media or letters through my email or whatever that, Oh, you know, you just need to lose weight, blah, blah, blah, you know, bullying basically. Um, and I know it was part of a critique group once and one of the author said, are you ready for that? If you get some of that. And I said, I already get it. You know what I mean? It was just like, I mean, not that I want more, but it's like, this is how I've lived my whole life. I'm, you know, um, it's like, what would be new about that? I mean, it might be more concentrated, right. There might be a 10,000 people at one time in my face about it, you know, cause if you've ever dared Google, uh, you know, anti-fat hatred stuff, those people are hardcore and they're scary. Um, but, um, but you know, I thought, well, I face it all the time. I've always faced it. So yeah, it might be at a different intensity, but it's, it's really all the same hatred. And, um, and lack of, it's not just lack of empathy to me. Part of it, I think is a lack of, uh, just understanding. I mean, that's what I, that's what I always want to tell somebody. I would love to put every single person on the planet, not in a fat suit, but in a real fat body, if there was a way to do that, you know, like an actual fat body and, um, and make them live in it for a month, not just a hours, not for a day, you know, like some of these reporters have put on fat suit to see what it felt like I'm talking a month, live with it, sleep with it, shower with it and see what it's like and see, see what you see, see how people treat you when you look like that. And when you're that size and then maybe we could stop it. And I think that's true for not just being fat. I think, you know, I mean, if you could put, you know, there's so much, um, racism right now is such an issue it's always been there. Right. But it's one of those things that we it's just, you know, there's no not addressing it if like we've always known it was there, but there's, you know, there's not been as much addressing it as there should have been. And I think, you know, if people had to live, if a white person had to live in, uh, live in a little black body for a month, I guarantee you, they'd never say, Oh yeah, racism doesn't exist. Right. You know? Um, so I think that's the thing, because, you know, there's that saying, walk a mile in someone else's shoes. I hated that saying growing up and I still hate it because shoes are easy to take off, you know, you need to live in someone's skin. And I think books that, and, and any art or any, anything you can do to help people live in someone else's skin for even 15, 20, 30 minutes is gonna really make them see what it's, what it's like. Um, but I think that, so part of writing this book was just, um, being afraid of getting all of the out, they're afraid of what the response may be. And there's been so much response in my life and anybody's fat who has been fat. Their lives has been what does go on a diet, you know, just, just go on a diet. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Right. And it's like, you know, I was, I was afraid that people wouldn't see what this story is about, that they would just see it as, Oh, I just need to go on a diet. You know what I mean? And so that was a concern. And, but then as far as me, I mean, it was very cathartic in a way to get some of this out. I mean, in black and white right there on the page. Um, but it was also kind of like torturous because it was like, I would go, I actually went and sat in the parking lot of the schools where I went and just, you know, it was funny. Cause I would look at the different classrooms, like, you know, just, I went after the children were gone and uh, I didn't want the cops going, what are you doing? Setting in the park? You know? Um, so I waited until, you know, it was completely vacant, but I went and I would just I'd sit in my car cause I didn't even want to go near the building and be accused of doing something. So, but I would look inside and I was like, Oh God, I just brought in memories. I hadn't even thought about for a long time. That helped me focus on what were the most traumatic because you can't put everything in there. Right. You've got to leave some of it on the cutting room floor. And um, so that was hard, but there was also this release, um, on certain poems that I didn't get in real life that were very helpful. Uh, you know, because Ellie gets somewhat of a resolution on some things and I didn't get some of that resolution. So it allowed me to get a little bit of Phil Ellie's joy of like ha you know, kind of, um, like the scene where her dad was.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Some of that joy. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like when the dad stands up for her in the restaurant scene, I didn't have anyone standing out for me in the restaurant scene. So I loved it when dad did that. I was like, you go dad, you know? And, um, but, and then the last, the last emotion is just, um, having to talk about it all the time.
Speaker 2:[inaudible],
Speaker 3:It's just, it's like I tell people, um, you know, my mom has Alzheimer's and it, the library where I work, we got a grant to do to try to make the community here, um, more dementia friendly. And so I was the obvious choice to be the coordinator for that project. And so it's like, and I took care of my mom for seven years before I had to put her in the nursing home. Um, last year now that she's in late stage. But, um, so it was like, I would be at work all day teaching, you know, learning because I have all these certifications for dementia and, um, learning more about dementia and then creating all these programs, like re you know, memory, cafes, and so forth. And then I come home and have to take care of someone with dementia. And it was like, I'm not catching a break here. And, um, you know what I mean? It's like, there's a point where you're like, okay, so I've had to learn how to walk away from it. And because I lived the life right. As a fat person, and then I've got the book talking about it all the time. So I I've had to make a concentrated effort to give myself a break from thinking about it, you know? And, and I do that by writing book number two, when I do it by, uh, uh, reading other books and, you know, there an I dabble in watercolor. And so there's other ways I can like, get a break from it. Right. But it's cathartic and yet it's always there, but you know what, it's always there anyway.
Speaker 2:Right. I do want to go back to, um, talking about this idea of how some of the characters, some of the bully characters in the book get a comeuppance of sorts. And of course, as a reader, you're just like, yes, I was waiting for this moment because so rarely do we get to see it happen in real life. Um, and then some have, uh, something of a redemption story arc, which is also powerful in its own way. Um, but then some don't, some of them don't really get that closure. So was that an intentional decision on your part? Or how did you decide what sort of closure you were going to bring to the different characters in the story?
Speaker 3:I think it goes back to my philosophy of being real, and that is, you know, sometimes you don't get closure and sometimes you get partial closure and sometimes you get complete closure. And so I tried to get that mix and because, you know, she did need some of those moments where it was ha you know, the cake in your face kind of moment. And, um, but you know, like the relationship with, uh, her brother never got redeemed and it, and in my mind, and you know, other readers can think differently, but it's, you know, what's at least my hands it's in the reader's mind. Right. It's, it's not my story, but in my mind, there was never going to be a resolution with her brother. Um, and I think with the mom, there's a partial one because her mom is finally starting to get it now, while her mom's ever stop it, probably not completely, uh, because it's so ingrained in her mom, but I think it will a decrease, you know, I see it decreasing. Um, after, you know, after you closed the chapter, the book, I see it decreasing for Ellie, with her mom, but I'm sure that there will be periodic things her mom says or does, you know, that are hurtful, but LA now has the tools to go, Whoa, don't do that. Don't say that, you know, that hurts, blah, blah, blah. Um, so that's what I was trying to do. I was trying to be real by giving the different levels because, you know, I think that no matter what you're going through in life, whether, you know, you're fat, you're dealing with addiction, you're dealing with, um, abandonment, your death, whatever, you never get full closure in some areas you get partial and others and so forth. So to me, that was just part of being that realism that I, I giving that realism that I shoot for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, and I think it was a brave choice because I know for me, and I think for a lot of writers that there's that instinct to want to tie everything up in a neat little bow. Um, and there's something very satisfying about that, but, but I, I really appreciated that about that book. Like there was enough satisfaction that it worked, but you're right. It's still kind of leaves some of these threads hanging open and leaves you to both wonder what might happen, hope that there might be resolution in, in somewhere in the future. But at the same time, it does feel very true to life. That's just not always how things go.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I think, you know, that's what I wanted at the end. My goal at the end was always for Ellie to be okay for people to know Ellie was going to be okay. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I want to talk, um, about two things that were mentioned, I think in the acknowledgements of the book that I find fascinating one, you mentioned that originally this was written as a, why not a middle grade, uh, and two, it was originally written in prose form and then later got changed to verse. So tell me about that. And whichever one you want to talk about first, because both things are so intrinsic to what the book became. It's very difficult to imagine it as a novel.
Speaker 3:It wasn't written in prose when I submitted it to my agent, it was in, it was in, uh, it was inverse. It was in pros when I was trying to start. Right. I mean, it was it. Yeah. Pros I keep, every time I say pros, I think I'm saying poetry. I got hung up on those words too. Aren't I do too. I do. I'm like, what did I just say that one? Um, but when I first started, but let's just talk about this. So when I first started writing it, here's my writing process. I don't, I get these little video vignettes in my head and it, or video clips maybe is a better way to see it. So like, I'll just give like this video clip in my head when I'm working, you know, getting in my creative mode and I'm like, Oh, a character. And I just kind of watched it just like, you would watch a movie and I just kind of observed, like, what's going on. And, you know, just like in a movie you can tell someone's mad, sad, upset thinking. Um, if you know something bad's about to happen, you know, whatever. And so I kind of watch it and I start being curious about it. Like I wonder, and cause I only get a little Quip. Unfortunately, one of these days I'm hoping my brain learns to give me a full fledged movie stop, you know, I know, right. I would be like jumping up and down. Um, but I get up and I get them randomly. So I might get a video clip, uh, that would be the dead center of, uh, of a book or the dead end or whatever. And um, and then I, you know, piece them together. So what was happening was I would see these, these little video clips and I would start writing poetry favors. And because the, it never came to me, like just came to me as pros. And so, but I kept thinking that you can't find a book like this, you know, you can't write a book like a novel, you know, I knew you could write a book of poetry. Right. But I didn't think he could write a novel in verse. I didn't realize that it was like a loud. Right. And so I thought, well, I'll go back to making this prose later, but here's the, here's the heart of it right here. Okay. So then I just kept doing that. And after I had, I don't know, maybe 20, 30 poems written, I was like, okay, I've got to start trying to figure out how to make this prose. And every time I did, I was like, Oh my God, I think this book, I was like this horrible. I can't even stand to read it. Um, and, and I realized that it just, um, it just wasn't working. And I thought I kind of do, I must was whiny about it. And so then, um, cause I loved it in, in a verse, but I thought I had to make it pros. So I was at a bookstore and I saw Sonya Sones book. What stopped pretending what happened when my big sister went crazy and I opened it, I love the title. I saw the spine. I was like, Oh, I gotta, I gotta open that. You know? And so I opened the book cause I always read the first page and the first page gets me, I buy the book and um, I read it and I was like, this is what I do, you know? And it's the most beautiful, it's just a beautiful book. Very S it's, it didn't have enough. I wanted even more poems. But, um, I love that book. It's still one of my favorite, um, first books. And I was like, thank God almighty. I can write it. And then I started reading others like Karen Hesed, you know, out of the dust, which is probably right up there. I mean, I think if I could only have three pros, I mean, I did again, three verse books on my bookshelf that I didn't write, you know? Um, cause it's fun seeing my own book on my shelf. It gives me this certain amount of like weird joy. But, um, I don't think it's that weird. Well, I mean, yeah, but it's funny. It's just like, cause you're like, Oh look, I'm right beside this. But anyway, but if I had to narrow it to three, which would be, you know, like torturous, but it would be stop pretending what happened when my big sister went crazy out of the dust and inside out and back again, I think those three are like, uh, you know, Oscar, you know, if it was the movies, this would be the Oscar, these are the, these are like the end all be all of how you do it and do it well. And um, but anyway, so I was like, yay. I can write a book like this. So then I, I read literally I read every single book I could find. Um, and, and I bought and read every single verse converse I could find middle-grade and why. So then I was like, well, do I write middle grade or do I white way? And I felt like, I don't know. I kind of just felt like I should write way because why it was such a thing at the time. I mean, not that it's not now. Right. But, um, it was just, it just seemed really, really big. And it seemed like, you know, if you, if you want to have a successful book, it has to be Nya. And then that was torturous for me because I really, I, why, you know, as much as I enjoy reading it and I do, I have a lot of white books on my bookshelf. Um, it's not something I enjoy writing because I really don't. Well, there's several reasons. One of which is just the romance aspect. I, I really cringe at trying to write romance. Um, it's it has to be my favorite. Is it, see, I have to it's so if you don't, you have to nuance it. Right. Especially in Y a or just becomes kind of over the top, you know what I mean? Like some big time. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you have to nuance it to be really good. And um, so I was just like, okay, how's this going to work? So I did it as way. And, um, and, and I actually was actually happy with it at the end. I was like, I can't believe I did it, but I did it. And was there was, there was, and I dare not tell you any more because it will totally ruin starfish for you for the rest of your life and starfish. Yes. I totally think I know who it might be. And we can talk about that after we, uh, yeah. And so, um, but anyway, so I wrote it run an agent, Lysa flies, equalizer wise agency, and, um, she ended up dead and, and, and so we submitted it, we didn't do a wide submission. We submitted it to Nancy Polson as the way. And, um, Nancy was like, can we, can we have a conversation, like talk? And I was like of, you know, you're Nancy Polson. Right? So, um, she was like, you know what? I have no doubt. Cause when cell is a Y a, you know, it's really good, blah, blah, blah. But she said, I really think it needs to be metal grade. And here's why she said, if it's a, Y a kids are gonna read it, you know, when they're upper teens and early college years, and they're going to go, it's going to be like a book of reminiscence. And they're going to say, yep. That happened to me. It was horrible. I hated it. And, um, but if you write it for middle grade, you're going to get them while they're being bullied. Because I mean, isn't that the worst time in your life when you're bullied? Like, as a kid, it's not when you're in elementary school, as much as it's when you're in junior high ish, middle grade. And, um, she said, if you, if you get it to them, then you're giving them tools in their lifetime toolbox so that they can deal with this and hopefully make some of the bullies stop bullying. Right. And, um, I was like, duh, of course it should have been mentally. You know what I mean? Then I was like, see, I should've just gone with my, you know, my original instinct was placed out of Y a, but I just felt such a push. And, and so that made me realize, you know, why as a writer, I just have to stick with my instinct and not go by by what the market trends are. You know what I mean? Um, and just write who you are and what you are. Cause I, I so much love middle grade because of, um, I don't know. I just think it reaches kids. And I, I was a preschool teacher putting myself through college and, and um, so younger kids have always had my heart. And, and I just think that, you know, they're so pliable and they're so impressionable that if you can reach them with a really good book about any topic that maybe first of all, there'll be a good reader forever. And second of all, that it will, you know, make them think and rethink how they see the world. And so I, she said, you know, Oh, you have to do it was so funny. I was taking notes of this meeting with Nancy Paulson, who is a genius. I say that every time I talk about her, because she has, she's like genius. And, um, so I was taking notes and it was just like, just, and I remember writing, just cut the romance. And then I go back through and I'm like, okay, well, there's a third of the book. You know what I mean? And then, and then she's like, and I don't think we need this part. And I'm like, and I was like, you know what I mean? I was like, just do this. The word just was, but it didn't Jeremy actually, it made me feel better. I felt liberated once I got rid of all that I really did because I felt the story. I got really to the heart of the story. And it was the story I always had in my heart. And it was the story that really, if I could ever tell it, it, this is how it would be. And so that's the genius of her as she saw it, she saw it there. And, um, every now and again, my agent and I just like the last time she called me about something, I don't remember what it was, but she was just like, ah, can you ever leave? That was almost a WIA. And we just laugh about it now. She's like, I know, but yeah. So that's how those things came about. Yeah. I have it there
Speaker 2:Aspiring writers, or even not even despite that all writers listening to this will take it to heart and remember to follow their instincts, listen to what your heart is telling you.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay. On that note, let's go ahead and wrap this up with our happy writer bonus round.
Speaker 3:What
Speaker 2:Book makes you happy?
Speaker 3:Oh my God. It depends on the book because I have, I have happy for different reasons. Okay. So from middle grade, what the, the, the books. And I have to tell you more than one. I can't tell you, you are a librarian. Well, I'm not a librarian. I work in a library and I have a degree in being a library. But, um, so obviously the three I mentioned with Sonya Sones and, um, you know, out of the dust and inside, out and back again, those are some of my favorites. Um, like I, I have probably read each of those three books, probably 40 times each at least. I don't know. And I, at one point had had about four copies of each because I kept accidentally rebuying it. Um, because I would be like, did I leave that out and get it back? I better buy it again. So anyway, um, so, but then there's a book that I read, which was amazingly good. Um, but it was sort of a, uh, help book actually. Um, it was called good morning monster, and it's an adult book and it's about a woman in therapy and it is absolutely amazing. And I loved it. So even though it seems like, Oh, that wouldn't be a fun book. How would that give you joy? But it did. It gave me so much joy that book did that I've like recommended it to a billion people. Um, non-fiction, uh, it's nonfiction. And, um, but it's just really good because it talks about, you know, she's, they're very vulnerable about, um, the different issues that she had and it's basically about her life in this support group. And, um, it's just amazing. It's so good. It makes me want to cry. Um, well there's good morning monster. And then there's uh, no, I'm sorry. I'm confusing. The two books. There's good morning monster is about, um, a therapist who talks about like five of her most kind of difficult and challenging and interesting cases. And then the other one is I'm trying to look it up really quickly, um, is the one where she's in group. Um, and I was just like, Oh my God, this book is like to die for. So those, and then I think for chill, like for picture books, I would never be able to decide there's so many beautiful out there. And I'm like, why? Because every time I think I want to write a picture black, I'm like all the good ideas are gone.
Speaker 2:I've tried so many times to write a picture book. They are hard.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, because first of all, you've got to leave so much room for the illustrator. And then second of all, it seems like everybody's thought of all the genius things. And I'm like, ah,
Speaker 2:Two, but then a whole new slew of picture book shows up in the bookstore and you're like, Oh, these are all brilliant. Why didn't I think of anything?
Speaker 3:That's what I'm saying. That's what I think every time, why didn't I just saw one the other day about a turtle going into Antarctica. And I was like, I think of that. I think of that, but I'll come back to the title of the other book. Wait a minute. Um, I'm searching here.
Speaker 2:Um, there was a book that I loved called. Maybe you should talk to someone. Um,
Speaker 3:It's not that like, it, it was kind of circulating starting around the same time.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah, that was, uh, yeah. Maybe you should talk to someone also about a therapist and talking about some of her more difficult clients, but very powerful book. Um,
Speaker 3:Good morning. Monster is amazing because it's about, um, uh, uh, like I said, a therapist who talks about some of her more challenging cases. Um, and then, um, go onto the next question while I searched for it. Cause it's going to bug me now. I think, think about it anyways.
Speaker 2:What is your personal mantra?
Speaker 3:There's so many I could think of at the moment. Um, I'm probably probably my, my number one. My number one is, uh, trust your instincts because my instincts are always spot on and every time I don't trust them, that's when I end up in trouble.
Speaker 2:Um, what advice would you give to help someone be a happier writer?
Speaker 3:You know, one of the thing that I do and, um, I've, I did it when I was a journalist as well, because journalists are not usually well liked. Um, because you know, we're, we're at the scene of most people's most horrible moments. Right. Um, so we, we ended up kind of taking their anger and hurt and everything else, even if we do the story perfectly. So, um, one of the things I started as a journalist and I've, and I've continued as, um, an author is whenever anyone says anything positive about what I write, I write it down or print it off. If it was emailed to me and I keep it when I was a journalist, I kept it in a file folder. And now that I'm, um, an author, I keep it in, uh, a jar. Um, I print it off and I put it in a jar behind my, in where I kind of do my recordings and stuff. And um, so every time I get a little discouraged or I think, Oh crap, I get stuck on a poem. I'm like, Oh God, how am I going to make this? What I really want it to be? I turn around and I'm able to, um, uh, you know, get it go, Oh, you know what? I did this once I could do it again. You know what I mean? And kind of thing. And um, so I think that's what gives me joy is just holding on to finding a way to hold onto all of the good moments. And for me that I need a visual. No, it's a great, great tip. What are you working on next? I am working on, um, another project with Nancy Polson and, uh, it'll be a middle grade in prose. I mean, I did it again. We're it starts with a piece I'm out. My brain always goes straight to pros, but inverse. Yeah. Lastly, where can people find you? Um, my website is author Lisa fipse.com. And then I am on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook as author Lisa fips.com. The key is to remember, um, my last name is with an S F I P P S. Cause if you look for pH, you're going to find someone completely. You gotta be following the wrong person. You'd be like, who is this person? I didn't know. Lisa was a banker or whatever, but were you able to find that book title before we close out here? That's I, I, I turned on my phone to find it really quickly here. Um, it's gonna make me mad if I I'm so sorry. Certainly edit that out. We want to have to find it. Yeah. You just edit that out because I can't find her. And then, but you know what? I'm not going to stop till I find it. Cause now it's ticking me off. Oh, I'm so sorry. I know this. Yeah.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, Lisa, thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you for having me. I loved having a good, this was a great talk. I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I enjoyed it too. Oh, I
Speaker 3:Found it. I found the book, um, is group how one therapist in a circle of strangers saved my life. Oh, that's a great title. Yeah, it's really, really good. Powerful.
Speaker 2:We can check out group and good morning monster. And of course be sure to check out starfish, which is available. Now. We always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore if you can. But if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and leave us a review. You can follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy and cozy and your bunkers and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit more
Speaker 1:[inaudible].