Marissa chats with Basil and Kevin Sylvester about their co-written middle grade novel - THE FABULOUS ZED WATSON - as well as writing aspirational "weird kid" characters that can help encourage self-acceptance in readers; the power of brainstorming as a duo and how receiving instant feedback and bouncing ideas off each other can make for speedier writing; one method for dividing the work between co-writers, even when their processes put them on different schedules; how today's young readers are ready for books that feature non-binary/LGBTQ+ characters having adventures beyond the coming-out narrative; and some great tips on creating a fictional treasure hunt that is full of the same allure and wonder that make real-world treasure hunts so enticing.
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa chats with Basil and Kevin Sylvester about their co-written middle grade novel - THE FABULOUS ZED WATSON - as well as writing aspirational "weird kid" characters that can help encourage self-acceptance in readers; the power of brainstorming as a duo and how receiving instant feedback and bouncing ideas off each other can make for speedier writing; one method for dividing the work between co-writers, even when their processes put them on different schedules; how today's young readers are ready for books that feature non-binary/LGBTQ+ characters having adventures beyond the coming-out narrative; and some great tips on creating a fictional treasure hunt that is full of the same allure and wonder that make real-world treasure hunts so enticing.
Books discussed in this episode can be purchased from your local independent bookstore or buy them online from the Happy Writer bookshop.org store (that benefits indie bookstores) at https://bookshop.org/shop/marissameyer
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I'm your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. Before we get into the heart of today's episode, I wanted to share some news about a new documentary that's coming out here in a couple of weeks. It is called the books tour, and it's about a self-published author who once upon a time loved Amazon, but decided to go on a road trip across America, visiting 50 indie bookstores in 50 days. And the documentary is all about how that experience led to him, seeing indie bookstores in a whole new light. And, um, I haven't seen it yet, but my assumption is changing loyalties away from Amazon. Um, we were contacted by the filmmaker about it and just wanted to let you guys know that if you're interested, all profits from the documentary are being donated to the book industry charitable foundation, uh, which is an organization that right now is helping indie bookstores recover from the pandemic. So you can learn more and order your virtual copy of the documentary. Um, and some other goodies too, at the books tour, film.com and that is tour T O U R on that note, if you haven't checked out bookshop.org, yet, that is the thing that is making me happy this week. And honestly has been making me happy pretty much since I discovered it many, many weeks ago, this is not a paid promotion. This is not an advertisement. I just legitimately love bookshop. Um, it, it kind of like gives you the convenience of buying books online, but also supporting indie bookstores. Um, and you can even like select a specific store, maybe one in your hometown or one that you love and a kickback from your purchase will go straight to that store. Um, so you don't have to give up online shopping to support your local. Indeed. If you haven't checked out bookshop.org yet, I hope that you will. And I am so happy to be talking to today's guests. Kevin Sylvester has written an illustrated more than 30 books for young readers, including the almost epic squad. Number one, mucus mayhem, the Neil flam bay capers, and the miners trilogy basil Sylvester is an author, a student, an editor, sometimes a bookseller, and even occasionally the backstage person in community theater together, their debut co authored middle grade novel. The fabulous Zed Watson came out earlier this year. Please welcome Kevin and basil Sylvester. Wow.
Speaker 3:And can I just say everything you said about, uh, book, uh, at bookshop.com or indie bookstores, a 1000% agree with you on every one of those?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I also, um, also discovered bookshop, uh, a few weeks ago, um, and have been super excited about it. So
Speaker 2:Yes, no. As soon as I heard about it, I was like, well, this is genius, you know, because it's so hard to compete with Amazon. How do you compete? And Indies just can't do it. So, you know, join forces against the man. Whoo that's exactly. Um, and basil, you are a bookseller. Do you work at an indeed?
Speaker 4:Uh, not currently. I work at the house of Nancy bookshop, which is currently operating only online. So my role right now is primarily customer service, um, and sort of tracking parcels and things, but, um, non COVID times, I am in the bookstore there and I've previously worked at, uh, Mabel's fables bookstore in Toronto,
Speaker 3:Legendary children's books,
Speaker 4:Canada. They are fabulous. And, um, I've loved them for so many years and it was such a lovely time working there. And they've got such a, such an adorable storefront it's um, very much like a, oh my goodness. What's you in? You've got mail. Um, Meg, Ryan's a bookstore that she runs is almost identical in a lot of ways. Mabel's so it's such a nice space to be in. So I've also worked there and then, um, I've also sold your book status, um, word on the street. So there's a lot of independent booksellers there as well. Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:I wonder if Maples fables served as an inspiration for that movie, maybe. So,
Speaker 3:So actually it's so close. It's funny how close
Speaker 4:It is. I know it's funny. Um, the owner, Eleanor LaFave has never seen it people all the time. Yes. People come in all the time and say to her, oh, your store is just like the little shopper on the corner. Uh, and she is like, I will never watch that movie. Uh, cause she thinks it's like bad luck. Um, that's fair. I think that's what she, I might be misquoting her, but yeah. Um, but so yeah, I think there are stealing her style.
Speaker 3:I also knew I'd made it as an illustrator. They have a wall of illustrators that sign,
Speaker 4:Everybody comes in and signs the wall. That's true, Neil,
Speaker 3:Gaiman's up there. And uh, so yeah, they asked me to do a dude a lot at once. Next. I tried to do it as close to Chris Rodel as I possibly could. This is one of my heroes. So,
Speaker 4:And yours is close to Tony Dieter Lizzie's as well. I believe no, Tony, another one of my heroes. It's a really fantastic room. I like how we're just geeking out on indie brokers here.
Speaker 2:Bookstores. I know this is kind of like the indie bookstore themed episode 100% in for that. Um, okay. But I do, of course also want to talk about your book, which is amazing. Um, I don't know how you want to split the elevator pitch here, but please tell listeners about the fabulous Zed Watson as you go,
Speaker 4:Always throw it to me, but I think you should do it this time.
Speaker 3:I'll do it this time. It is a funny middle grade novel about a non-binary kid named Zed Watson who loves stories about monsters is very funny. And part of the humor of the book is them sort of being very confident in who they are. They dress flamboyantly. I won't even say flamboyantly. They dress weirdly and they love it. Like they wear sweaters all year long with unbelievably bizarre patterns and they discover a mystery, the mystery of a lost book, possibly the greatest monster book ever written, which the author wrote 40 years ago, wasn't published. So they buried it, buried it somewhere, leaving behind some clues and said in their frame, Gabe think that they have solved the glues and they go in search of the greatest book ever
Speaker 4:Written there there's our elevator pitch, but
Speaker 3:There was a few floors on that elevator. That's there.
Speaker 2:I absolutely loved this book. Um, I love said I love Gabe. I love a treasure hunt. Like it had, there's so many things in this book that I was just totally nerding over. Um, so to begin, okay. I know Kevin, you have written and illustrated many, many books before this one. Um, basil, this is your first. So I want to know one who had the idea for the book originally and then who was like, Hey, maybe it would be a good idea to write it together.
Speaker 4:So it's a bit of a, it's sort of a weird way that this came about, uh, because we didn't come up with the January south wait. So it was actually weirdly enough. Uh, it was pitched to us. Um, so we have a mutual friend and colleague named Suzanne Sutherland, who is the editor, uh, the CA the children's book editor at Harper Collins, Canada. And she approached us and said, I'm thinking of, I want, I was wondering if you would like to write a book that's funny, uh, for middle grade, with a non-binary protagonist. Um, so we immediately of course said yes. Um, yes, absolutely. And, um, she sort of pitched it as a coauthor to us, which was funny because we had already, uh, between ourselves been talking about and partially planning a completely different, funny middle grade book together, um, which had sort of stalled. We were doing that a couple of years, uh, prior, and then I put it on the back burner and then yeah, she emailed us and we immediately jumped on it and then just had an incredible brainstorm session just between like just Kevin and I, and back and forth basically came up with the character of the said and the road trip idea and the book within a book idea, the sort of literary scavenger hunt aspect within 24 hours or initial email. Um, we were so excited about it. And I had also been trying to write a, a book with a non-binary protagonist, um, but like a Y a. And so a few of my story ideas for that worked their way into Zed because I was, it had also sort of stalled because I just w as a Y a project, it just wasn't working. And then when we got this email from Suzanne, it was like, oh, right. Like middle grade would be perfect for the story and this character I think. And so, um, yeah, just really took off from there.
Speaker 3:Kind of funny how quickly it took off, actually, because I think we had worked out some of the kinks that a co-writer might have working on the other project. And so it just kind of landed at exactly the right time. We were both already thinking about doing it. We'd worked out some of the, you know, head-butting incidents. Uh, and so, yeah, it, it was alarming how quickly we had a plot outline for the book alarming, how quickly that happened.
Speaker 4:Yeah. We had a meeting with her like a month after. Yeah. Maybe if that, and we sort of, we had our entire outline and we even had sketches, like you had been drawing. Um, so we had sketches of multiple scenes in the book that we had been thinking of. And so, yeah, it just came together really, really smoothly, weirdly. Like it was sort of just serendipitous, I guess. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. Do you think that it, I mean, what do you credit toward it coming together so much? Was it just kind of like the, the two great minds working together? So when one gets stuck, the other can jump in with an idea, or do you think it's maybe because you already both had a background in, in trying to do along these lines? Or what, what, how, why did, why was it so easy? Why did it come together like that?
Speaker 3:No, I know. And that's why I said alarming because it's unfortunately set unrealistic expectations for myself. Every other project I've worked on. I think it was a little bit of both. I think we, the timing was perfect. And honestly, because I know this is a podcast as well, where we're trying to give other writers some sort of sense of what we do and what might work having an editor. So, so I'm not even like going back through the book now, I just find it super hard to remember who did what, but I know that the process was that we would sit down and we would think of jokes, or we would think of situations and you must know this mirror. So sometimes you're by yourself and you get trapped, you get stuck and you can't get out of it. Having someone there to instantly bounce it off of, uh, I highly recommend it. It was, uh, and, and, you know, if you get along, it was amazing how quickly we could, uh, say no, that joke doesn't work, or here's the words you're looking for. And it just made everything very speedy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, I think it's funny cause, um, I think it was you Kevin, who in one of your emails had said like, oh, when we do our interview, we can talk about how we survived the process, which made me wonder, like, was there a possibility of murdering each other at one point
Speaker 4:I, we, and so we actually worked to a well together, like better than we thought, but I remember, um, first sort of saying that you and I like that Kevin and I were going to write data and I really wanna write a book together. Um, I think, I think a few people around us, um, a little bit, yeah, we're a little bit like, are you sure that's a good idea? Um, because we, uh, I think we, uh, both of us. Yeah. Right, right. So both of us grew up, but both of us grew up in households where there's a lot of like debate happening all the time, like at the dinner table. Like there's a lot of, like, you kind of have to be able to keep up with the rigorous philosophical debates that are happening every night. And so you sort of develop this, not quite adversarial, but this sort of like both in discussion and in joking, this sort of one-upping each other all the time. Um, so I think there's that dynamic where people were like, oh, but you guys seem like you are constantly fighting. Um, which is not the case at all. But I think because of, um, the way that we, uh, interact with each other, there's this sort of bouncing off all the time. Um, but yeah, so I think
Speaker 3:People, I think sometimes I'll be honest. Sometimes people who see our family from the outside go what the actual heck is going on. So it's a little bit like the it's a little bit like the dinner scenes and Zed Watson, because it's, that's our house that is loud. People yelling. You can't hear from one end of the table to the other. Well, maybe not during the pandemic, but in normal times, that's, that's our house.
Speaker 2:That's what I though, if I were to have a complaint about the book, it would be that there weren't enough family seeds. We kind of, we leave the family pretty early in the story to go off on the road trip. And I was like, oh, I really love this family. I want more of them
Speaker 4:Had more, uh, scenes planned in the outline in one of the initial outlines, but then very soon the focus, uh, because I think initially we didn't have gave as a character as fleshed out. Like we sort of were like, oh, there'll be a companion on the road trip. So once we had come up with the dynamic between set and Gabe, I think we realized that that was really, um, gonna be a really fruitful relationship through which to explore a lot of the issues and like a lot of the things that come up in the book. Um, because initially I think there was going to be a lot more of sense family, which I do. I did love writing those scenes and reading those scenes. Like I still, it still gets a smile on my face, but, um, I think because the family is so, uh, accepting of Zed and also sort of knows that and understands them that if we were to have so many scenes with us as family, it would be sort of harder to then show, uh, their heads nonbinary identity sort of at play. Um, just because there's no real fish out of water or less, um, informed character in order to sort of then explain or work things through, uh, with the audience. If that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry. I need to pause one second. My cat has started yelling at me.
Speaker 3:I don't know what is the cat want to know? We'll answer that question too, to open the door. That seems like perfect. If there are no cats and said's house, that's kind of interesting. Actually
Speaker 4:There might be cats. We just don't see them. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm sort of CS. I sort of sees that as being allergic to cats because everybody, I know when my family is allergic
Speaker 4:To cats, I think the only reason that there aren't cats is because like, there's just, there's, there's more than we could possibly fit into a single description.
Speaker 2:I think maybe there could be cats. They just don't get a mention. Right.
Speaker 3:Well, if we ever do a sequel, maybe we'll throw some cats in or something. Some cats. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, okay. Where was I going? Oh, so how did you, uh, go about dividing the work? So you come up with this outline, you pitch it to your editor. She's sounds like she was all for it. How did you then go forward to the actual writing?
Speaker 4:So we took the outline. So the outline we worked on, like together entirely collaboratively, and then we took the outline and we sort of divided it, uh, not exactly chapter by chapter, but sort of chunk by chunk. There are certain things that, um, dad was more excited to write about or was more confident about writing. Like initially I think he did. Uh, it's funny. I can't quite remember now, but, um, I think you had, initially you worked a little bit more on the sort of like the plot, the light, I dunno, the stature on bits, like the sort of clues. And then obviously I wrote, um, I dunno, I said obviously, but I, I wrote, um, more of the sort of, uh, gender stuff like that. The scenes with was said and talking to the border guard, for instance. Um, and then what happened was we separated, um, based on the outline and then dad wrote already
Speaker 5:Laughing at me about a month, about a month.
Speaker 4:Well, right. So I didn't do that. Um, yes. So, so this was in the summer and by like by September, you had completely finished and I had barely started. And then the manuscript is due January 1st. And I finished my semester on December 17th and had to write a lot of the first draft, like my parts of the first draft in that time. Um, so then what happened after that was we, uh, got together and would read out what we had written. Um, and this is sort of what dad was talking about earlier in terms of the instant feedback loop, where we had the system where I would read out what I had written, um, and Everett, you would read through it once and the other person would listen and take notes, and then you would go right back to the top and read it again. But this time the other person would interrupt you and sort of jump in when something didn't land. Or if something was really great, like, oh, I laughed at that, oh, I like this. Oh, whatever. Um, so that, by the time we handed in the finished draft, like everything we had written had been through out loud countless times, and also, uh, we did that because it's first person as well. Um, we did that to sort of make sure that the voice was consistent. And so, um, by the time we ended in the first draft, like, I don't remember what you wrote versus what I wrote because we sort of went back and forth so much on it. But the initial, um, sort of segments were written, uh, PRI like individually, but then most of the process was collected and part of it
Speaker 3:Too was so, uh, the, the Gabe character and sad sort of reflect a little bit as well, the dynamic between Baz and me. So when we were writing the scenes where they're talking in the tent, that I think at least part of that is a conversation that you and I had over dinner tables. And, and while writing the book about how you explain non binary to someone who doesn't understand non binary. And so that was also part of it was, we didn't want the book. We wanted the book to be for everybody to read. Like, like if you're a Gabe read the book, you'll laugh. If you're Zed, you'll read the book and go, oh, I feel empowered. I feel, I understand the identity. Do you know what I mean? Like, so I think a lot of that was also made stronger because of working together on those scenes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I think that's, that's actually a really great point because there's a really powerful scene when Zed is comparing themselves to the fictional monsters in this book that they're trying to find, um, and says like this book has taught them that it's okay to be weird, like quote unquote, it's okay. To be weird. It's, it's even better than okay. It's, it's, it can be a good thing to be a little odd and, you know, to be, I don't know if outcast is the right word, but like we all have a weirdness to us. And that was one thing that I loved about how relatable this book is. And these characters are that like, yeah, that's of course going to be a really powerful message for non-binary kids and readers. But I think so many of us and myself definitely included, like we were the weird kids in school and it's powerful to hear that, like, it's okay. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. And I think that message, I know it came across for me really strongly.
Speaker 4:Oh, I'm glad. Um, yeah, it was definitely something that we very intentionally did in terms of, so, um, cause obviously the reason that said, uh, relates to monsters is because of their nonbinary ness. And also I think because they have certain other just quirky characteristics to them, um, that, that sort of make them weird. Um, and yeah, it was really important for us to sort of talk like face that, uh, head on and talk about the sort of being an out, I guess, quote, unquote outcast or being the weird kid. Um, I mean, I think also it sort of comes naturally naturally to both of us, um, being the weird kids, like growing up, like, um, where, and I think that's part of, um, showing their family too, is like, they're weird. Their family's weird. Um, but they're very functional, very like loving if unconventional family unit and Zed as an individual. And I think, yeah, it was very intentional to sort of, um, not only shows that as identifying with monsters because of their known biting us, but to make sure like, just to have that in there so that any kids who feel sort of like weird or like they don't fit in, uh, can, can really find something for themselves in this book. Um,
Speaker 3:Well I was gonna say, I think also, uh, picking up on that as well. It's been interesting. We've been presenting at schools and it's been interesting to watch some kids respond and they want to know more about, uh, identity and or sometimes they're like, I'm non-binary I have a friend who's non binary. It's, that's been lovely, but it's also, and I'm not even sure this is something that I was conscious about when we were writing the book, but it's so nice to say to kids, look at here's what Zen is about. Zen is about self-acceptance they have a community that supports them, but they are super, I don't know about happy with themselves. They are comfortable with who they are. That's why they dress the way they do what's that they're happy with themselves. Okay. So, and, but that's, uh, that I think is so, I mean, think back to when you were the weird kid or when I was the weird kid or versa, when you were the weird kid, you know, that part of it is that there's a power over you from other people who call you that because you're not comfortable with who you are at that point in your life. And one of the things that I it's been really lovely to have kids write or talk to us when we're presenting and they say, oh, so sad likes themselves. And I'm like, yeah, that's, that's why I liked Zed so much. Like, because they like themselves. And that's one of the hardest things. And I say this to the kids as an old man, listen kids, it'll be one of the, one of the hardest things in life is to accept yourself. And sad is I think in some ways a pathway to that, and they're about a supportive community fight, you know, pushing back with humor, when people go you're a weirdo or when they mis-gender them and stuff. And I said, it's kind of aspirational for me. Yeah,
Speaker 2:No, I see that entirely. Their, their confidence is infectious, you know, very much so. Yeah. Um, I want to talk specifically about the treasure hunt aspect, um, because that is totally one of my word things is I love treasure hunts, anything to do with treasure hunts, I get like obsessive. Um, and so in this book, we've got these characters going on a road trip to try to find this unpublished manuscript, um, that Zed and Gaber kind of obsessed with. And for me, like I was getting a lot of vibes from some like real life, treasure hunts, like the worst Fenn treasure and like the secret from the 1980s. And yeah. So I, I can tell from your response that you guys are totally on board with this, how much like an inspiration did stuff like that serve for the plot of this book?
Speaker 4:Uh, I think pretty big. So one of'em, so I think for me, uh, I think more so than dad, one of the inspirations for this book is, um, one of my really close friends, uh, who I've known since I was like, I don't know, 13, um, so around maybe a bit older, but around that age, um, she absolutely loves sort of like conspiracy theories, like just weird sort of like, um, you know, dead letter offices and like fun, little weird trivia about like roadside America and all sorts of like just weird facts. And so a lot of buying inspiration for this book comes out of our conversations and like weird, you know, weird tidbits that she sends me. Um, you know, and also the, like the ITI video game sort of about the sort of idea of like, it, it was terrible. It went really poorly. So then they tried to bury it, which just made people more interested in it. Um, I think that that's really funny. Like I think also like George and stuff, like George Lucas is like Christmas special where it was terrible, but then because he was so upset about it, it just made it more interesting. Um, so yeah, it was sort of like a combination of like just weird urban legend kind of stories that I've just been interested in since I was a kid and me and my friend have a lot of discussions about it. Um, and also, yeah, just like, like you said, like sort of real life weird, um, stories of, yeah, sorry, go ahead. No, no,
Speaker 3:The one that, the one that I, I actually just had to quickly look it up again because I've forgotten the name. There was masquerade. So when I was, uh, yeah, when I was about 12 years old, that that was an obsession because it was, they buried this Bejeweled rabbit somewhere, and then they wrote a book where they left behind clues and I've always, I didn't even, I remember like, I think trying to convince my parents, Hey, I get, we can go find this, we just buy the book and then we'll get a shovel and we'll go, you know, like that sort of, twelve-year-old excitement that it's out there and you can get it. And so, uh, that was definitely that one stuck with me my whole life. And I think that was an inspiration as well when we were constructing this treasure.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah. There was a book. Um, it wasn't masquerade, but I think it was inspired heavily by masquerade. And it was something that I had when I was, you know, 11, 12 years old or so. And I remember me and my brother. Yeah. Just obsessing over that. And, but you become convinced that like, I can figure it out. I can one to solve this mystery. And that, that is it's so Uloric universal thing that like you want to solve the puzzle and find the treasure.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I think it was very much like wish fulfillment too. Cause like, you know, I remember it's not directly related, but I remember reading, uh, you know, books about mermaids or whatever when I was really young and being like, oh man, like if I just, you know, if I just close my, like, if I just close my eyes and hold my breath under water long enough, I'll be whisked away to this magical like mermaid kingdom or whatever. And I think that's one of the best parts about reading books as a kid had talking about books with kids is that they're so excited about it. And they just like, they they're. So like they believe it so strongly. And I think what's so great about Zed is that and what I sort of want it like, well, we sort of want us to do, is that I think it's like, I think we, like you said, like we both grew up with this, like, oh no, but like I could be the one to crack the code. I could, I know if I could just like take enough time and like study this, like I would get it and I would become rich and famous. Um, and I think it's fun to write a character who not only believes that they can do that, but then sort of gets to go, uh, like gets to go on a trip to maybe do that just because it's like, it is like wish fulfillment. It's not like I ever went into the desert with a shovel, but it's so fun to, you know, write someone who gets to do that. Um, yeah. So I think there's part of it too. Like it does come from a love of, of like treasure hunt stories and um, because there's something so alluring about that still, like, you know, I even today, like I'll read a, an article about someone who finally discovered some long lost, buried. They it's just like it's. So there's something about things that are buried in the desert or wherever it is. Like, it's just so, yes. Well
Speaker 2:I love, I mean, it's, it's fun to think that there still are so many things to be discovered and you can, you can kind of get into this mindset like, oh, you know, it's, it's all been found, but it's like, but then you watch some documentary about how they just uncovered some new Mayan ruins or whatever. And you're like, no, there's still mysteries out there. And I could go out with my shovel. Gosh, darn it. It could be. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And that's sort of like, I think it's an, it's an, it's a nice sort of, um, combination of people like kids that's age and me at that age, having that wonder and sort of like the wonder and the mystery that, um, I think you sort of grow out of to a certain extent, but then treasure hunt stories still get me to that place. And so it's fun to write not only a treasure hunt story that gets, you know, me as an adult excited, but also to get to write it with the main character being a 12 year old, who's already going to be super into it anyway. So there's this kind of like double excitement and they're just like, and also he thinks that his personality, like they're just full barrel all the time. Um, and it's so fun to write a character that just is so excited and so in chanted with the world, um, and, and the sort of the beauty and the mystery and the sort of infinite variety of it, um, which I think is also informed by their like gender identity and this sort of idea that they, um, they can explore what's out there and they don't just have to sort of be, you know, be fine with what they're given in a sense. Like, I think that's part of the, that's one of the things that I really like about that too, is that, and this sort of also comes back to one of our major goals when writing this, um, is that they've already discovered or like found out about being nonbinary and they've already sort of internalized that and like moved on, like they've sort of said like, yep, I'm non binary. There are other things in this world to explore. Let's go, let's go. Um, let's go. Um, and I think that's one of the things too is just like that. So many books about, um, and here I'm going to use the word, um, but not like sort of as a umbrella term, but like and, uh, LGBTQ experience. There's so many stories, even for kids that are so depressing. And I think there's this idea that we have to sort of like if we, if we ignore the sort of like the, the sadder parts of life and the sort of harsh realities, often that with living as a gender nonconforming person, um, that we're somehow doing kids a disservice, um, because we're not, I don't know, like preparing them or something, but I think what's so fun about writings that is like, they're totally fine with it. And they're not to say that they, and not to say that they don't have moments of doubt or there's uncomfortable, or like potentially sort of dangerous moments, but that it's just not a big deal. Like it's just, it's not, or not that it's not a big deal, but it's just like, it's, it's already accepted. Like they've already, they're already fine with it because, um, like at that age, um, I was starting to realize a lot of things about myself and because of the narratives that I'd been reading and experiencing fictional or non-fictional, it was sort of like, I was really scared and I really like, I didn't come out for years because I was like, well, I don't want to, to first of all, upset people around me and I don't want to sort of in a sense commit to like a life of suffering. Like, it's sort of like, I feel like so many of these narratives and I think it comes from such a good place. Like it's, so well-intentioned where it's like, I don't want to just, it nor the fact that, you know, being BI or like being or being trans can be difficult. But I think that it skews, uh, so far in that direction that like, I didn't come out to my parents for like three years, because I was afraid that they would be upset, even though I knew they wouldn't be like, I knew then, and I knew they wouldn't be upset, but then because of like the narrow, like the mainstream narratives of it, I was like, oh, but what if they are? No, they won't be, but what if the, and that was like years? Um, so that was one of the things I think when we started this, we were like, we're not going to write a book. That's sort of focused based on his dad's identity and Zen and like the sort of coming out story, coming out story and like the potential, you know, pitfalls of that because, and I think we were right to like, I feel like the more presentations we do. Yeah. The more right. I feel in it because the kids are saying so fine with like, kids are like, oh yeah, like my, my friends non binary, or like, you know, we get kids today being like, oh, well I'm non binary. And I liked this book or people being like, well, I'm not one binary, but like, like, but there's sort of such an acceptance now. Like, I don't know, kids are amazing. I feel like I, you know, like, there's like, I think when we're out of that space, that space as adults, we're kind of like, well, we don't want to introduce certain things. Like we don't want to, you know, confuse them or whatever, but it's like, they're already kids are already past them. Yeah. They're already there or past it. Like, no, no, that was a really long response. But now
Speaker 2:I love that. I love hearing your perspective and I think it's so great because I want to say it's like in the introduction and maybe the first chapter of, um, of this book, the fabulous said Watson, and it's talking about the monsters castle, you know, this book, um, that was never published, that they ultimately go off to try to find, and I, I don't have the quote written down, but there was something about how, like, when the monsters castle was written, the world wasn't ready for it, but they're ready for it now. Um, and so just listening to you talk about like your thoughts like this, the coming out story and the stories for, you know, kids who are struggling with that, or, or, you know, trying to discover their identity, like those books they're necessary. And I think they're important. Um, but I also agree with you that it is also okay to just, you know, show a kid or a person being who they are and finding joy in that and going on their adventure and living their life.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. And I think that was, um, another sort of fun thing that I definitely had fun writing about the sort of the, like the sort of meta narrative of like, oh, the world wasn't ready for the monsters castle, but now the world is ready in the same, like sort of way that it's 20, 21. And there's, we're one of the first books featuring a non binary kid for middle-grade ever. Um, and so, sorry,
Speaker 3:Go ahead. How long has he got it again? Although I think it's not even something that we were, that we had in our heads as of this, as a story about how the world has changed. We know the world isn't totally changed. Right. We have lawmakers who are attacking people all over the place right now, and a book like this might be challenged some places. So it's not like we're, we're unaware of the problems. It's, it's more that we, we did want to say that, I guess maybe part of it for kids were reading it, you know, it's, the whole things will get better thing. You will find community. There is at least there is community out there that is there for you. So that was part of it as well, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I, I want to back up a little bit to back to the treasure hunt and just, uh, on a craft level. Like, I am really curious, you talked about how you, you wrote this outline, it came together really quickly, and then you took off and started writing, but so much of the, the story hinges on this poem, um, that gives you then clues to these destinations that they hit. Um, first of all, are the destinations in the book real or are they made up, how did you research for that? How did you write the poem? At what point did you write the poem? Like, I'm just super curious about the nitty gritty. Like how did you get everything to fall into place? So, well, we had a map,
Speaker 4:So actually we actually, before we get, so, um, let me think. So all the locations are real, and initially we had chosen them because not as potential clue locations per se, but because we were like, we knew sort of where we wanted them to end up geographically. And so we were like, okay, what let's like, what stops are sort of, uh, if we start in a place that's like near Toronto, it's an each I think initially the places we picked were about like, I don't know, six or seven,
Speaker 3:Six to seven hours of driving along a particular route that we won't give away. Right.
Speaker 4:And then, so initially, so this was part of what we brought Suzanne. Like we had a, just an eight by 11 sheet of printer paper that just had like Toronto with a big circle around it. And then like the, uh, the end location circled around it. And then just like a bunch of little dots with air. Like it was, she was like a, such a rudimentary, not I'm pretty sure she was just like, what am I looking at? Um, and then what we did eventually, as we got a huge, a wall sized roadmap of the United States and sort of more carefully planned, like, okay, they would go along this highway and then this is how they would get there. And then we picked specific, um, real locations. And then we started with the location names and then wrote the poem really early on before we separated. So it was part of the, uh, part of the outline really, although the language of the poem did change a bit, um, throughout the editing process. So, but yeah, so we started that out very early, um, because we knew that in order to separate and write individually, we'd have to know like the start and end points and sort of the stops along the way in order to make sure we were on the same page, so to speak. Um,
Speaker 3:And part of the danger of that is, uh, and, and we almost encountered this a couple of times, is that you can, you can write to the answer, like you can write a clue that just sort of it's, it's it doesn't, it's not like it's fair to a kid, a kid should be able to read a clue in a book like this and feel that they could have figured it out themselves, whether or not they really could. They, it should make sense to them, not like, you know, oh, it had to be that Arcadia, like there's a hundred places called Arcadia in the United States. Why did it end up in this one? So there had to be reasons. So part of it was that once we figured out where we wanted them to stop, we had to figure out a way that, uh, HK Taylor, who has left behind all the author of the Monster's castle, who has left behind all these clues, we had to figure out how they would have made it, make it so that someone could figure out which one they were talking about. So that, and that's part of I'll. And honestly, that's part of where the interplay between Gabe and Zedd came in too, is because,
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's sort of, when that became super important, I think was specifically for figuring out the clues, because initially we had, it's almost like sort of how it happens in the book is almost a little bit the order where we wrote it in where we were like, okay, we've got Zed and they, oh, and then the monster is, and they'll figure it out because of this, this, and then we did sort of realize, oh, we're writing to the answers a little bit. And, and there's sort of it's this Arcadia because we already knew it was going to be this Arcadia. And then that's when we brought in, uh, Gabe, which I think was also Suzanne, I think really liked Gabe and was like, Gabe needs a little bit more to do, I think, and we were looking for so, right. And I'm so glad that they, that he gets like more space than our first draft had a little bit less of him or no, our first draft, but our first pitch had a little bit less of them. I'm very glad he was more, but sort of a, it's interesting because he's so instrumental to figuring out the clues. Um, and we published this book. Then later we realized we had sort of collaborative, collaboratively, written a book where collaboration is so important. Like sort of them working together is what helps them, uh, figure out this route and sort of what, what they're like, what makes them such a good team. Part
Speaker 3:Of it from a writer's perspective too, is that when we started testing those Gabe solutions and Zed solutions, again, having someone to bounce it off of made it easy to go, no, that's too easy. Or now that doesn't make sense or no, that's, you know, oh, wait, if we, this, what if, what if this, not to give any thing away, I guess too much, but what if this particular flower only grew in one part of, let's say the United States. And then we did a lot of research, like where do certain botanical things grow and Gabe loves plants. And that's all I'll say about that. But it was like, because it pushed us to do some research, make sure that it was a code and a treasure hunt that felt like if we had buried the actual book and money someplace that a kid reading our book could go find it, if that makes sense. Well,
Speaker 4:And also like, um, yeah, sort of, uh, uh, like I really like, um, Sherlock Holmes and like the original story is, and I think part of what's so great about Sherlock Holmes is that you feel like you could've solved it because he sort of shows you like, oh, well, because of like, he, he shows like Conan Doyle will show you things or mentioned things and that you can see in your mind's eye. And then later you're like, oh, I already knew about that, but I just didn't think about it in the same way that like Sherlock Holmes did. And that sort of also, um, another big part was the research, because once we started doing that, very sort of directed research about flowers and about whatever, like we came across some really interesting, uh, coincidence as there's certain clue, uh, later on in the book that, uh, another character in a different character than said, and Gabe sort of brings up or is sort of part of I'm remembering correctly and like my own book. Um, but there was sort of like the research was important there because we sort of came across some things that were just yeah. Also sort of serendipitous. And it was really interesting, um, to sort of have our research also mirror our thinking in some ways like that. It that's sort of, what's so great about writing and doing research is that you come across all these like interesting little facts that you wouldn't have known if you didn't do research, but it also makes your writing so much stronger. Um, and you're really like, dad's really good at that. Uh, cause a lot of his other, uh, I mean he started as a broadcaster, so he's good at sort of non-fiction storytelling. And um, a lot of his other books also incorporate a similar kind of research where you read the book and you're also learning about, you know, history or science or space travel. Like there's a lot of, they're sort of learning on an emotional level and also on an intellectual level, um, when reading his books, um, which is also another, uh, another fun part about writing for middle grade too, is that the plot is so important in middle grade in a way that it's not as important in why a, um, or like often why books are focused on, um, it's more about characters and like situations and identity. Um, like you can kind of, not that they're not, not that there aren't plot driven way books, but that often, especially when it comes to, uh, LGBTQ books, especially not, not so much anymore, but, um, you've got a lot of exploration of identity and I think that's one of the fun parts about writing for middle grade is that the plot is so front and center and I'm very bad at writing plot, which is why I focused on writing. Um, like I'm very character focused and a lot of my favorite young adult books are very character focused. So I thought, oh, I'll start with a, I'll write a young adult book and it'll be character focused. And then it was terrible. It went terribly for me and, uh, sly it's my first published book, but it's also one of my first completed writing projects because glad I could help it, don't be to say, this is like as, as, as a qualitative judgment on way at all. I absolutely no,
Speaker 2:But I know what you mean that you're middle grade at that age level. Like you have to keep things moving. We cannot have pages and pages of introspection. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4:Which is what teens are a little bit more interesting
Speaker 3:Or they have more patients for it. They're at a different level of, of reading for sure. Right, right.
Speaker 4:Yeah. That's what they're more focused on. So. Hmm. So
Speaker 2:Has there been any planning or discussion over creating an actual treasure hunt for your readers that
Speaker 4:I think initially we had wanted to. So the original plan way back in 2019, remember that remember 2019?
Speaker 2:No, nothing before 2020, it's been wiped out of my memory.
Speaker 4:The only reason I remember 2019, like I remember the second half of 2019 because we were writing this book, uh, earlier than that I have no clue, but, uh, part of the part of what we wanted to do and it didn't work out in the summer of 2019 and we thought, oh, there's always next year was let's to go on the road trip and to sort of see if we could do like, sort of see if it was feasible to do some kind of fun
Speaker 3:Yeah. Tie in
Speaker 4:Kind of fun, but then geo
Speaker 3:Caching or some sort of thing where we could, uh, yeah. W so we might do that. Uh, we did want to do it. We liked doing road trips.
Speaker 4:That's the thing that also comes out of our comfort of our love for treasure hunts, but also our love for road trips. Um, absolutely. Yeah. We would love it. I mean, we did do some talk about that when we first writing it, but then of course they very quickly became not feasible, but who knows some someday in the future, it would be fun.
Speaker 2:It would be such a cool little tie-in promotion sort of thing, but also probably like a ton of work. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I did a scavenger hunt for the 10th anniversary of my first novel, the Neil Flom bay, uh, book. And that was fun. It was like a hundred questions and I would love to do something like that. I mean, I, you know, or, and I've always tried to play around with the idea of actually burying something like, right. But my, my worry is that people would go and it's not worth the effort
Speaker 4:Or you would, or I feel like it's more a legality thing. Like where are you burying again? There's that too, I suppose, like, um, but yeah, Kevin, I mean, I also love scavenger hunts. Like we recently did an event where we had not quite the same, but like, we also had like a bingo. So it was like, like anything. I think that where kids feel like they're involved not feel like, but kids are involved. Like there's sort of a more active participation, I think is really something that's close to. Both of our hearts, uh, as kids who really struggled in to pay attention in school when it was not something that we were particularly good at or interested in, interested in. Um, fair enough.
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, we are now going to wrap this up with our happy writer bonus round. Um, I don't know. I mean, I'll just ask the questions you guys can decide if you want to, like who goes first or however you want to do it. Awesome. Let's do
Speaker 4:Alphabetical like, uh, like on the book cover,
Speaker 6:Come up a lot. Uh,
Speaker 4:Yeah. I feel bad because some sites only list one author. So I'm listing as like the only author. Um, and then sometimes he's just listening to the illustrator. Oh no, you've been demoted. How dare you? I know, I don't know why I said that. Wow.
Speaker 3:Proud to see your name there Baz. Right. So we have bags. You go first,
Speaker 2:You will always have that to, to dad. Like, you know what? My name's on the cover first. Okay. The first step. What book makes you happy?
Speaker 4:Um, my comfort read is Anne of green Gables. The first one, I do love that one. Um, I actually have an antique green Gables, uh, themed tattoo. So where, um, it's, it's a bunch of, uh, flowers from the series, like, um, plot significance. So there's like cherry blossoms and artists. And then, uh, there's texts that says dear old world, uh, from her quote from the first one where she says, dear old world, you are very lovely and I'm glad to be alive in you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's beautiful. It is lovely. Not that book. I
Speaker 3:Had a hard time trying to narrow this down because there are, and I know that everyone answers that there are so many, but, uh, Sydney Smith, small in the city. Ah, yeah, it makes me gas. It's one of, it's a picture book. It's one of numerous international awards. Sydney is a friend and it's just such a beautiful book. Um, and I read that one when I want to feel inspired as an artist, which flips me to another one. I know I'm going to cheat and put two picture books, but my friend, Debbie Redpath, Roe has a book called salmon Eva. And she and I have presented together. And it's a book about inspiring imagination. And so, whereas Sydney, both of them draw better than I do, but it's like, it's just looking at what they do and how they approach creativity. I, whenever I read books like that, it inspires me to kick my own butt up a notch, like just to sort of try harder to, to try and to try and to try and write something that a kid can read and feel a range of emotions, but also feel inspired. So those would be my happy books.
Speaker 2:I was not familiar with either of those and they will both go on my list. Oh
Speaker 4:My God. Everything by Sidney Smith is just breathtaking. I will say, I think you may, I don't want to say too much, but I think you may have, uh, it's small in the city. Is it a hap
Speaker 3:That it's a book that makes me happy to be a happy book. Exactly.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. I'm just saying for your purposes, if you're going to, if you read it and then you have a different emotional reaction, just know that's fair,
Speaker 3:But it's a beautiful, beautiful book. I a hundred percent. Yeah.
Speaker 2:What is your personal mantra?
Speaker 3:I'm going to go first. Cause bass hesitated. Uh, mine and bass has heard this. No Baz has heard this actually since they were a kid. Uh, but every day, try to make the world a better place. Somehow. That's your goal every day you wake up.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Um, I have, uh, I don't know that I have, uh, uh, one that comes from myself per se. I think part of the tattoo is also to sort of remind me to like, be enchanted with the beauty and the complexity of the world. And also, um, one of my favorite, uh, writers. He's not a novel, like he's not an author, but, um, he writes for radio and he has this whole sort of radio sketch, um, where he just ended with his two rules, which are one be kind and to have fun. So for sure that one too nice.
Speaker 2:What is your favorite monster?
Speaker 4:Uh, my favorite monster. I mean, I have a lot, but I would say vampires and ghosts often like lie for the top spot, but I think they're tied
Speaker 3:Clearly Grover the greatest monster of all time for Godzilla or their, their come on. Godzilla, Godzilla. I love Godzilla movies have all my life.
Speaker 2:It had a theme song. What would it be?
Speaker 3:Okay. Okay. I think I know what Baz is going to say. So part of our writing process, especially when we were like doing that mission in December was we would listen to a song every single day to start our writing day. And it's by, uh, an amazing artist, uh, sadly passed away from aids, but a Sylvester named Sylvester who is a disco artist and he has a song called, do you want to funk? And it was our listen every day we still do. I was listening to it before we started this
Speaker 4:Interview. I haven't listened to it like before, uh, like before presentations, like it's sort of like our, our hype music and I think, uh, yeah, it's definitely dead would also really like, it would be bop into that song. It's very, it's a, it's a really good time. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:What are you working on next?
Speaker 4:Um, finishing my undergrad. Um, hi. So I'm currently working sort of, part-time like, I sort of, I'm less actively working on it, but it's simmering and it is a, uh, pride and prejudice retelling idea because that's also, uh, also a book that makes me happy. Uh, I've read it hundreds of times. Um, but yeah, that'd be my answer.
Speaker 3:Uh, I am working on a book called, uh, well, right now it's called department seven 13, and as part of a, sort of a glimpse into how Baz and I have always worked together, I'm always bouncing ideas off BAS even before we work together. And this was an idea. I bounced off them, uh, in the last year, but it's about a kid who who's, you know, they sort of are fallen on hard times and he and his mom are living in this old apartment building that is just a dump, but he hates it. But then he starts to like the people who live in at, and then it turns out the building's about to be torn down. So he's pulled back in time to when the building was new and he doesn't know why. And he has to try to figure out how to save the building in the past.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I'm really excited for that one. I think that one actually, it's almost like Zed came out of the characters of our first idea and apartment seven, 13 came out of the premise of our first idea, like when we were first workshopping stories before, but it was also sort of set in an apartment building. Yeah, that's a, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I grew up in, uh, just outside Buffalo and Buffalo has all these unbelievably beautiful buildings that almost all of that almost got torn down to the seventies. And so in fact there was a Frank Lloyd Wright skyscraper that got torn down. And so I, my entire life, I've been obsessed with the idea that these beautiful buildings that people poured their heart and souls into that they just get thrown away in our, in our mad dash to put up quicker buildings and Walmarts and
Speaker 6:Things. Yeah. So
Speaker 2:Lastly, where can people find you
Speaker 4:In this swamp? Um, to be honest, I do not really have a social media presence. Uh, it's just, I think COVID just really made me realize like social media is not the place for me. So you can find me at my local coffee shop and yeah, I can give, I do have a, I do have a business email or like a writer email that, uh, people can request, but I don't really like give it out. But if you have something to say, it could just get dads top of the lungs sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I commend you for making that noise, like realizing this is not for me because I feel like there's so much pressure to be on social media. And I know a lot of writers kind of hate it, but like force themselves to do it. So yeah. Power to you. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I'm always on Twitter. So
Speaker 4:Not sad for me because it's like you, then that way I still feel connected. Like, you'll send me tweets about like, oh, people are saying this or whatever, but I don't have to be on it. It's like in a way you're like my secretary. It's nice.
Speaker 3:Oh, finally, finally we get down to the brass taps, right? That's right. Horrible child. You failed as a parent, but you can find me. Yeah. I'm on Twitter. And I tend to tweet with friends of mine who are also writers 90% of the time. And, but I also have a website, Kevin Sylvester books.com. You can find me there Instagram, but a Twitter is where I'm almost all weeds there during the day. Getting into some, I don't know, war of words with some friend of mine. What's your, what's your year? Oh, Kevin arts. K E V I N a R T S. Yeah. It's a play on seven arts. The old bugs bunny Warner brothers, seven arts.
Speaker 4:I did not know that. I feel like I just unlocked lore. Wow.
Speaker 3:I'm only your secretary, so
Speaker 4:That's right. You shouldn't ask enough questions. You don't even care. I mean, what's your Instagram Sylvester artwork. Right?
Speaker 2:Awesome. Thank you both so much for joining me today. Thank
Speaker 3:You for having us. Thanks for having us for it. So we
Speaker 4:Started a feud live on it will never work so much.
Speaker 2:Definitely check out the fabulous Zed Watson, which is available. Now, of course, as we talked about much, much earlier in this episode, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can also check out our podcast affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. Next step, we will be talking to Brandy June about her debut, why a novel gold spun. This is a retelling of Rumpelstiltskin. And as many of you know, my book coming out this November is also based on Rumpelstiltskin. So I am super excited to talk to Brandy, uh, about some of the specific challenges about adapting this fairy tale. Um, and that episode we'll have a few more hints about gilded as well. So I hope that you guys will check it out. Please be sure to subscribe to this podcast and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy, stay cool. If you're in parts of the world, like we are where it is ridiculously toasty, uh, and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit[inaudible].