MG Graphic Novels... with Romance! - Amy Kim Kibuishi (Realm of the Blue Mist) & Kazu Kibuishi (Amulet)

Marissa chats with Amy Kim Kibuishi and Kazu Kibuishi about their graphic novels - REALM OF THE BLUE MIST: BOOK ONE OF THE REMA CHRONICLES and AMULET - as well as the bittersweetness of reaching the end of a decades-long project; why romance might be more "acceptable" in middle grade graphic novels than prose novels (though Marissa would love to see more romance in both!); the state of the comics market and where it might be headed next; how living your life according to your values can help you be a good role model for young readers, without the pressures that sometimes come with a more public life; and some great advice for pacing yourself and your creative output, rather than always racing toward the next deadline, in order to maintain a healthy work-life balance and avoid the dreaded burnout.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 0:08

Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I'm your host. Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. We are nearing the end of our July contest. This month's theme is the towering stack of to be read books, the TBR pile, the TBR shelf, the TBR list. How ever you try to keep your books organized. If you post a picture of your TBR pile on Instagram and tag us at happy writer podcast, you will be entered to win a free book. Uh, so please check it out. Full details are on our Instagram page and that is ending in just a few days. So definitely get on it. One thing that's been making me happy this week is audio books. And I can't believe I haven't used this one before, because this is totally one of my favorite things in the world. Talking about TBR piles, audio books are pretty much the only way that I get any bonus reading done anymore. Um, because doing this podcast, I feel like I'm, it's all that I can do to stay on top of reading for upcoming guests, which means that I don't get a whole lot of time anymore to read quote unquote, just for me, you know, just the fun things. And so thank goodness for audio books and getting to read, you know, in my car or while I'm picking up my house or whatever, uh, they have been a lifesaver and now we're starting to do more like family road trips. And here just last week we had to drive to Eastern Washington. Uh, so for the first time we popped in up family audio book and all listened to it and it was like, oh, this is so great. So I hope that becomes a new favorite thing. When we're traveling. It seemed a lot more wholesome than everyone just staring at screens the whole time, which was kind of our emo before then, embarrassed to say, and I am super happy to be talking to today's guests. Amy Kim QB wishy is the writer and artist of sourcers and secretaries, a two book series for Tokyo pop and her upcoming fantasy graphic novel realm of the blue mist book. One of the Rema Chronicles will be coming out next spring. Kazu Kibuye. She is the editor and art director of the explore and flight comic anthologies and the creator of the web comic copper, as well as the illustrator of the 15th anniversary edition of Harry Potter. He's also the writer and artist of Daisy cutter, the last train and the New York times bestselling graphic novel series amulet, please welcome Amy Kim and Kezar Kimi, Rishi. Hello. Hello. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 3: 3:12

It's such an honor to be here.

Speaker 2: 3:14

I am super excited. Um, I'm a huge fan of your work cause you, and I'm so excited, Amy, to hear more about your upcoming graphic novel, when Kazu suggested that you join us today, I got super, super excited, um, just to talk and hear all about it. So I know it was a little bit of a last minute thing, um, but I'm really happy that you can join us.

Speaker 3: 3:39

I'm happy to, he's like my biggest fan. So thanks.

Speaker 2: 3:43

That's important in a spouse. I think my husband always jokes that he's the president of the Marissa Meyer fan club. Oh yeah. Um, let's see, why don't we kick this off, Amy, would you please tell us more about your upcoming series, the Rima Chronicles? Sure. Well,

Speaker 3: 4:02

Um, the story is a middle it's a middle grade graphic novel series and it kind of follows, um, the journey of a young lady named Tabby Simon and her quest to find answers surrounding her father's mysterious death. And they kind of leads her through a portal to another world called rhema and she meets his handsome guy and they kind of adventure and try to get, he tries to get her back home, but she just gets sucked into the sort of political and mythological and historical stuff that's happening on that planet. Um, but yeah, the first book, uh, it comes out March 1st in 2022. And I'm so excited because I've been working on it like pretty much my entire life. It's a really cathartic to finally have it in a, in a form that I feel like this is a book it's always meant to be.

Speaker 2: 4:49

You say you've been working on it pretty much your entire life. Like really? How long do you think you've been working on this since I was 12? Oh my goodness.

Speaker 3: 4:59

Like in earnest too, it wasn't just sort of like, oh, I had an idea in the back of my mind, but like I've rewritten it over and over and over from start to finish. And it's had a life as a sort of popular web comic and I wrote it as a straight up prose novel for seven years.

Speaker 2: 5:15

Wow. I just re

Speaker 3: 5:17

It's it's a story that just is really, um, it was like my sort of imagination playground, you know, anytime I've got inspired by anything, I'd be like, what would it be like if I applied that idea to these characters and Rima and it all just started with a really strong dream that just stuck with me and it ha it came like fully packaged. It had like the world, the characters and the atmosphere, and I've just been, trying to find a way to get back to that place, like my entire life. And, um, I didn't, I feel like I didn't really get to it until now. So I guess it just, I had to like mature as a person, I think before I could really express what I was trying to do. Right.

Speaker 2: 5:53

No, that makes sense. I often think about things that I wrote when I was a, then I still have a spot in my heart for those stories, you know, and, and how excited I was about them at the time. But for me, a lot of them were like these big epic fantasies that I just wasn't prepared to write. Like I didn't have the skill set for a big epic story yet. Um, and I love that you have still been working on this and I have seen it through many different renditions and now we're doing the graphic novels. Does it feel like, okay, this is what it's meant was meant to be all along. And it's just, we just find it got here.

Speaker 4: 6:35

Yeah, definitely. And it's kind of a bittersweet experience seeing that manifest in front of me for the first time. Like when it finally started to in like, oh, this is it, this is home for these guys. You know? Cause they're, they're like these internal, like I don't talk to them in my head or anything, but they came in my mind fully formed. So it's kind of like, I've been carrying them along the whole time and to see it manifest in a way where I'm like, this is definitely what I was dreaming of when I was 12. I just kind of it's bittersweet. Cause it means it's the beginning of a long goodbye kind of, you know,

Speaker 2: 7:05

Living. Right, right. That's so cool. Do you have any idea how many will be in there?

Speaker 4: 7:11

I mean, I want there to be five books. At least I have the full series mapped out and that's how long about it's going to take, but I mean, I can't control the bracket and stuff, so whatever happens, I'll do my best. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:25

Well, congratulations. I can't wait to read it. And I do have to ask your, your summary. You mentioned she meets a handsome guy. Is that a love interest? Cause I feel like there's not enough love interests in middle grade.

Speaker 4: 7:38

It is a love interest. And it's funny because that was one of the sticking points for when I had it as a prose novel, I actually shopped it around to several publishers. And um, there were two editors that got back to me that I really, really respect. And um, they were just saying, they just said, well, this has a lot of potential. And we'd like to publish it. If you take out the love story, cause there's no such thing as love stories of middle grade. And I was just like, you know, I can't do that because the love story is kind of the whole reason I wrote this thing, you know, the dream. So I was like, why would I live my entire life with this story only to get rid of the most important aspect of it just to get published? I was like, no, I can't do that. And so I never pursued it all the way. Um, but you know, Scholastic wants, they saw me doing it as a graphic novel, the editor there, Cassandra Pelham Feldman. She was just like, yeah, you could do whatever you want. I mean, they had a lot of faith in me I think because of sources and secretaries and they know they've known me over the years, just sort of clinging onto kazoos the terms I see, take me to the dinners and stuff. You know, they know that I'm a, I guess, so they, they put a lot of faith in me and I'm really grateful for that opportunity.

Speaker 2: 8:43

Yeah. That's so interesting. I wonder why evidently some things are more acceptable in graphic, novel form than they would be in prose form. What?

Speaker 4: 8:56

No. And I know for middle grade, I always kind of confused me cause I like, you know, I'm not going to do anything spicy in the comic book. Like my level of romance is like the sound of music, you know?

Speaker 2: 9:08

Yeah. A little handholding, maybe a sweet little kiss,

Speaker 4: 9:12

Kind of the limit to it. And I, and um, but, but even that was too much I think, um, yeah, it always confused me cause you know, frozen has like some romance in there and a lot of the Disney movies do and that doesn't nobody blinks an eye about that. Maybe the visual versus pros where you're like imagining everything yourself and it can get out of hand. I think it's just the terms. I think people hear love story and they think like it's going to be like a saucy romance type of, you know, a type of book in the same way that when people first heard graphic novels, they thought, oh, then that means it's violent. And then, so it was hard. It takes a while for people to understand that, you know, the means and the words can mean two, three or four different things. And so I think so when someone hears romance and they're not reading the actual story, they think, oh, romance, as in like a, you know, just like something you buy at the supermarket, you know, right there that with the kids. So yeah, I think that's what happened.

Speaker 2: 10:17

Well, I love it cause I love graphic novels and I love middle grade and I really love romance. I love it. When a book has a romantic element to it. It's one of the things that like holds my interest above all other things. Is that question of, will they get together? Is there a happy, a romantic happy ending here? Um, so I'm super excited and I want, I'm just going to put it out there for all middle grade authors. When I was an 11 year old girl, I was super into kissing and romance. So I want to see more. I hope that it's more of a thing cause you, why don't you tell us a little bit about amulet?

Speaker 4: 11:02

Yeah. So inlet, um, it's a project that I started working on in 1997 in college.

Speaker 2: 11:10

You two just started on a project and don't let it go.

Speaker 4: 11:15

Well with graphic novels, they're so involved and it requires such a huge commitment. Um, and you kind of don't even know that you're making that commitment when you start. I don't think Amy and I knew that it was going to take this long, but it would be such a, such a daunting and difficult journey. When I started, I just, I was just focused on trying to make something that, um, could fit on the shelf with NASA gear, the valley of the wind by AKI and a bone by Jeff Smith. I read those two books, a book series, and I thought, wow, that's this is like the experience I'm I want to give to another person. I want someone to be able to begin my adventure at the, when, when the sun rises and by the time the sun sets they're done and that day will always be remembered and they'll come back to it again and again, every now and then like maybe when they're 20 years old, I'll read it again. And then 30 or 40 or 50 years old, they'll, they'll read it again. And they'll spend that one day on the weekend, um, with a cup of tea or something and they just sit by the window and then they read the whole thing from beginning to end. That's how I read both NASCA and bone. And I just thought there was only those two experiences that I could think of that that kind of fit the bill. And I thought, well, you know, we could really use another one. And I, and I started, I really didn't think I was, I was all fine for the job. Like I was always making like jokey KRAS comics that were just, they were just generally funny and violent. And I, you know, I wasn't the kids comics guy and now people would think that that's ridiculous, I guess, cause they always think of me as the kids comics guy. Um, but um, when I saw that, um, the way that comics were going and the way that the at the book industry was headed, I felt that there was a real need for graphic novels. I had always felt this, um, from when I was in college, I thought, wow, these are very, very important pieces of work in our society. And I, and I saw that, uh, how effecting comics were in Japan and then Europe. So I figured it would happen to the United States. And I thought like, yeah, I probably be a part of that. And so when I was doing ambulant, I actually had to, to walk away from a project that was, uh, that was, uh, that was really passionate about called Daisy cutter. Um, and I had already done the first book in that series and I had to think that it was more important, um, to find new readers and allow young people and, you know, multiple generations to share the work. Daisy cutter is very much like for someone who's a, it's a very much a young adult book, you know, it has made for somebody who's just coming out of college and they're trying to figure out their lives. And I think that, uh, it, it, it hits them pretty hard. They read it at that time, but I didn't see much for all ages comics. And so I made the shift over to ambulate, um, and um, in doing so, I dunno, I feel like a lot of people thought I was, I was, um, I was leaving something big behind, but, um, but it, it turned out to be okay, you know, ambulance is found its way and it's sort of, um, you know, slowly becoming part of our cultural lexicon, I think.

Speaker 2: 14:33

Yeah, no Devin, I would say that it has definitely found its way. Um, yeah. Yeah. I love amulet. Um, of course I'm dying for the last one. Like all of your readers are, can you, I'm sure. You're so sick of people asking, but is amulet nine coming

Speaker 4: 14:52

Along? It's coming along really well. Um, I, um, you know, it's, it's interesting when I started working on it, it felt like I was in a bit of a race, you know, not met with anybody else, but, but myself really. And I, and I felt like I had to keep up with the pace of the vision and the ambition of the whole thing. Um, and as we were coming around the bend to the, to the final, this final book, I realized that there, there aren't too many people like me are doing books like this. So it has just been, you know, me on this like long track, along with my assistant Jason propo, uh, we've been together on this journey for like 12 years together. Um, you know, I've been on this journey for like twenty-something years on ambulance. Um, but he's been with me for 12, 12 to 13 now. And, you know, I didn't see a lot of value in just pushing out the product just to meet, you know, the perceived demand. Um, and I did, you know, we're about to summit this journey that this is going to be the mountain top, you know, right here, we're going to climb it and we're going to, we're going to do the thing. And I just decided to slow it down a little bit and think things through so that whatever I produce now is remembered, you know, and I thought that was the most important thing. So this last book is taking a lot longer, not just because of the amount of work involved. It truly is the most, um, work intensive. It's a book of the series of, if you see it, you'll you'll know what we're talking about, but, um, it was that we wanted to finish this project in style and not just, not just by way of the content, but for our lines as well for both me and my family, Jason, his family, we were going to come through, uh, finishing this thing going, this was, this journey was worth it. And we would like to do it again. Um, instead of coming to the finish line, broken, overly tired and working to meet some deadline. And, you know, I just decided to just, just look away from that and, and do this the right way so that I can do it again.

Speaker 2: 17:06

Well, I think that that's brilliant and I think it's important advice maybe for people to hear, um, in novels, at least within the wider world, there's this expectation that a writer will put out one book a year. Um, and especially in writing a series, like it's very rare that publishers aren't really pushing for someone to create on this schedule. And that works for some of us, like I'm myself am pretty comfortable, comfortable doing one book a year, but I know lots of writers who that is a struggle and they just drive themselves nuts and have no life balance and nurse so much stress. And then in the end, they're not always happy with the product they put out. Um, and so I think it's a good thing to, to recognize the ultimate product is what we should be focusing on. Not these arbitrary schedules and deadlines.

Speaker 4: 18:05

I agree completely. I mean, we know so many other artists who've, uh, who've experienced burnout. I mean, I, myself will be one of them, like after I did my first series sources and secretaries that was under a really tight deadline and I finished it, but why was I burnt out afterwards? I like never wanted to draw another picture again. You know, I did take a really long, like six to seven year break where I didn't draw a single thing. And I just, I mean, my, my hand was arthritic or whatever. Like I had like these pains in my shoulders and I mean, I stayed up four nights in a row, uh, the last, at the very end there just to push it through. And I was just like, what am I doing with my life? It's just not worth it. And, um, I were in a much better place right now.

Speaker 2: 18:51

Yeah. Well, good. And obviously this podcast, the happy writer, like that's, I feel it's, so it gets lost this idea that we should be finding some amount of joy in what we're creating. And if it gets to a point where it's just making you miserable and like literally in pain, then maybe, maybe take a step back and reevaluate.

Speaker 4: 19:15

Yeah, for sure. Something's got to give at that point, you know, once, um, I, uh, I once was at an event where I met, um, Norton Juster, the author of the Phantom tollbooth backstage set to speak. And so we sat down and there was no hallway and I didn't know what I was talking to Norton Juster until like midway through our conversation. Um, and we talked about life in general and he, um, talked about, um, you know, what he, what his life was like. And it was, uh, he was an architect and he wasn't an author. Full-time that wasn't his job, you know? And every time he had an idea for a book that he wanted to share with the world, he produced it as a book, uh, usually with Jules fiber and, um, you know, and I thought, wow, that's a really, that's a really good way to look at it. You know, cause books, books are our memories, right? That's, that's kind of what I feel, what we're doing. We're putting, placing these, we're creating these memories, we're creating memories and putting it in a book form and people are gonna put it on their shelf. And on that shelf, there's only so much space. You know, there's only so much space for the memories that a reader chooses to keep with them along their journey through life. And if we're focused on just filling that shelf with just our members, like the one author's memories and just content in general, then you're going to be pushing out all of these other memories that they can place on there. And, you know, you may, you make it harder for them to love your own, your work, you know, and that's, that's the way I was starting to think of it. I was like, wow, I've already got eight books. There's like eight. Like these kids are reading eight books, they're putting it on their shelf. And that's a lot of space that it takes up. And so like every new page I create, I just think, wow, I'm asking for a lot from them from that, for that one page. So every page now it's like as, as the years go on, I feel like every page is more valuable than it ever was that like, I have to get like the, the most value I can, I can give them in that one page. Um, so that, because I'm going to push something else off the shelf and that's what they're, that's what I'm asking them to do. Um, and so, yeah, that's, uh, you know, I, I think that, you know, with that, um, mindset it's also helped my, my, um, you know, my actual, real physical life, you know, cause now I have more time with the kids and I'm not, I'm not abandoning them to go on the road or anything like that. Um, and they, and you can see how, you know, um, valuable it is to the kids. They actually recognize that and they, you know, come to me and said, thank you. They can see that I'm doing that. That's powerful. Yeah. And they, they like, you're the best. And that's, it's amazing that you'll do that. And I think that, um, you know, that's, um, I would hope that that authors, you know, take that very balanced view because we're sharing these ideas that become philosophies, um, for others. And if you live your life in a healthy and, um, you know, sustainable way, then you will be sharing that with others and they will have a healthy and sustainable life. And if you can do that, I think that, I don't know if feel like you're adding value as opposed to causing problems.

Speaker 2: 22:44

Right. I wonder because I agree that, you know, there can be, I mean, it's an honor, it's a huge honor to know that some reader has chosen to spend time with the story that you have created, the characters that you have created. And I've always felt that really strongly. Um, but what I spend too much time thinking about that, um, I feel like it can also come with a lot of pressure. Um, and like my internal perfectionist starts to come out. Like if I'm, if I'm thinking too much about, oh, I need to impress them with this first chapter, or I need to get characters or readers to fall in love with this character by such and such a page, then it gets to a point where it's like, that's all I can focus on. And so for me, I found like I, when I'm creating, I spend a lot less time thinking about the end reader and how they're going to respond. What about you? Are you keeping this idea in mind as you're working? Um, and how does that impact thoughts about pressure and perfection?

Speaker 4: 23:57

Um, you want to go for a start? I mean, when I'm, when I'm doing, it's definitely just for me, but it also makes me stop and think about my life. And I'm like, am I living in a way where it's the younger person looked up to me? I would feel comfortable with them, you know? Okay. So for example, when searchers and secretaries came out, um, a couple of people came up to me and told me that they actually went and went to the college that I went to because they loved my work so much and they wanted to go, wow. You know, it's just like, dang, I wouldn't, I don't know if I'd recommend that for everybody. You not to like to get a degree in cartooning. I'm not sure if that's, you gotta be sure that's what you want to do. You know? And so then it just kind of made me realize I'm not just spitting fire by myself and no one else is going to see the mess I making. This is being broadcast to potentially thousands, hundreds of thousands of people. And like, um, I just find if I, if I focus on my own life and live a life that's true to myself, uh, um, I don't have to think so much about, I guess. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's a good way to put it. Um, see, I actually kind of, I like the pressure, so I mean, Amy knows this about me. Like I like high stakes, like, um, you know, I I'm, I'm into I'm into sports and I like, you know, fourth quarters and all the drama. And, you know, I kinda like feeling like that, this thing that I'm doing at this desk where it's just scribbles on a piece of paper, you know, is, is bigger than just that. So I think it's a personal, it's a personality thing as well. Um, that I, I do enjoy, uh, you know, being, being in that, the pressure of the moment and it kind of drives me to be better at the work that I do. Um, but I know what you're saying. It is like, it can be, it can be a little bit paralyzing if you think too much about the end result. Um, and you know, I, I used to feel that, but as the years went on and I just see so many kids and I talked to their parents and I talked to teachers and I talked to counselors, I talked to that, I'm just talking to so many people after a while. Um, you know, like, um, the fear goes away and you just, you're just in it. You're just where you work. It's the place that you work. If you are a doctor, you know, in a small town and you're the only doctor there and everybody was coming to you as a patient, no. After a while, you just realize, you know, that your, your role there is, you know, just to, to help, you know, um, benefit the health of those around you like that. And then I think it, it doesn't feel as, um, you don't, you don't think too much about the pressure. You just do the job, you know? And, um, and so for me, as I've traveled from school to school, to school, to school and talk to, you know, hundreds of thousands of kids at this point, um, you know, I, I, you know, I know that there is a responsibility, you know, with my job that comes with my job. And, and that actually makes me feel more, um, you know, locked in to doing good work because when I was young, I actually thought I heard hearing from other people about my comics. I just dismiss my own cartoons as silly things that are not important. And I wanted to do work. That was important, which is why I actually went and studied film. And I didn't go to art school. Um, I didn't, uh, I didn't formally study to do this. Um, I just wanted to be part of something bigger, but then when I saw the comics have the potential to do that, um, I, I changed tracks back to comics and decided this is going to be, this is going to be my station. This is where I worked from. Um, so I think it's a personality thing for me, Amy too. I think she likes to J she's, she's a, she's a leader and I have always kind of, I've always kind of been too. So we're, we're kind of both like that when I did, I really enjoyed it. We kind of have some difference. We have so much in common by the way, cause you and I, and Billy have so many long conversations about this very type of question. And in the end though, I think like, cause they were, for example, he loves mountain biking. He likes, you know, snowboarding, surfing. He likes bombing down Hills. He likes being at the edge of that thrill. And I'm kind of more like, I just want to walk really slowly through the woods and stop and look at every flower and mushroom and we're going to get to the same place, but we get there very differently, I think.

Speaker 2: 28:28

But he's has to wait there for you for a long time,

Speaker 4: 28:31

Both on the mountain, but giving different things.

Speaker 2: 28:38

Amy, I want to go back to something you said earlier, um, that you had at one point experienced, um, what was the word that you used a really bad burnout, um, creatively and that you had a six to seven year break before you came back to, to art and to creating. And I'm curious if you recall, what was it or how did you end up finding your way back?

Speaker 4: 29:07

It was mostly kazoo just whispering behind my back. Like it would make a great graphic novel. He is your biggest fan. I hated that. I was just like, leave me alone. I'm going to be a writer. And like, my writing's terrible, but I, oh, it's pretty bad. Okay. But my, my novel read more like a script, you know, like how I would give him copies. And it was like this big novel, it's like 500 pages or something. And he would read that whole thing, bless yourself, read the whole thing. And he had always stopped and looked at me with this. Like she does, she just started granting straight and he'd be like, get rate's like a, like a really good graphic novel series. And he was consistent with that the entire time. So, um, it's funny. Like I was in denial as it looks I'm like, well that's because of course he would say that. Cause like he said, he's like the only one making these big epic fantasy graphic novels in one setting anymore and right now, and I'm just like, well actually not anymore, but he was at the time and I was, he, he wants some company, you know, but you know, so I was just, I asked my brother, cause my brother was always really Amy, you can do this writing thing, Amy, you're a great writer. He was always, you know, pumping up my ego. So I, I did an experiment. I took one scene in the middle of the book and I had the chapter that I wrote in prose. And then I had like a really rough out, some nailed version of a comic book if I translated it into comics. And this is the first time I draw comics in about seven years. And I was like, let me just see, you know, and you know, and I was like, so Tim, my brother I'm like what? Read both of these, which one's more interesting. So I gave him the, the chapter that was written in prose and he read, he was like, oh, that was pretty good. I know it was exciting on, I know what happens next. And then I was like, okay. And here's the comics version. And he just looked at the first panel and he's like, this is already way more interesting

Speaker 2: 30:53

How funny

Speaker 4: 30:54

I was like, okay, it's not because it wasn't lying. This is my research. You know, my friends don't listen to me always. Right. But still it hurts. You're, you're just, you're just, you see things I think before people are ready to hear them, but you've never been wrong in my experience. Yeah. I don't know if you've never always right. But yeah. Yeah. I try to, I try to give, um, you know, I try to give advice that like, I don't want to, I don't wanna, I'm not trying to hurt anybody, but a lot of times you have people I've had, I get a lot of phone calls, um, from fellow writers, graphic novelists are just trying to make their way up in the world. And I'd say 50% are really happy to hear the harsh truth that I'll throw down, really take it the wrong way. And I think that they just, they're on our a hundred percent of believing that I'm wrong about, you know, um, my thoughts on it. Um, and so I've, I've been hesitant to give advice now I get, I get a little bit less, um, you know, I'm less willing to these days, right? Because I don't want people to feel hurt or anything. Um, but I think there's like a general trajectory for where graphic novels are going. Um, and it's, hasn't changed since when we started Amy and I we've been talking about this before we got married. We know we used to talk and then late nights and just talk about where comics were going and it, and it wasn't where a lot of the industry was saying it was going to go, you know, a lot of thought it was web comics and people just kept pushing, um, you know, the superhero comics continually, um, and looking at other countries and just, you can just model it from Japan and Europe that it was going to, it was going to be all ages. It's going to be cartoon ear, um, much more accessible, like, uh, storylines. And it eventually, it would become so big that there would be a saturation as you're seeing in Japan and, and, um, in European countries and, uh, you know, in south America, uh, because it's been going on for, for them, you know, they've had this for like 70 years and in comics in America, you know, has it, there's a, there's a really, um, it's a very turbulent history of, uh, for the industry, um, where, you know, especially after the fifties and sixties, um, you know, things kind of went in a pretty bad direction for comics. I mean, they, they've just not been able to recover from things that happened in the 50 sixties and also in the nineties. Um, and when I came into comics doing, doing books like ambulant, I had read all of that history. I've done all of the homework. So I knew what the potential trajectory could be, where we could go back into another hole. Like there, there was a years ago and I was really, really careful about not allowing that to happen and doing, doing things, you know, where, um, we could create something that we could sustain for a lot longer than our previous generations did. Um, and, and so the advice I would give to somebody is really just based on that model, not so much like that, I'm right. I think it's just, it's just homework.

Speaker 2: 34:32

No, I agree. And I'm remember, cause I was really into Mongo when I was a teenager. Um, but you couldn't go to borders was the bookstore that, you know, was around, I miss borders. Um, you couldn't go to borders and buy Monga. Um, and some of my friends that I like used to have to ride the bus up to Seattle, um, and buy it and they were, you know, at the Japanese bookstore and then come home and try to find translations. And, and I remember just being so jealous of Japan and these amazing graphic novels that they had for all ages with so many different, you know, storylines and, you know, fantasy and all of this. And I just thought, why can't America pick up on this? Why is this still something that is considered odd? You know, only the weird kids are reading this. Um, and so now in the last, you know, 25 years seeing how much graphic novels have grown in our market, it has made me just absolutely delighted. Um, and especially for, for kids who, uh, you know, who really respond to this art form, um, where it just didn't use to exist for them, at least not on the level that it does now.

Speaker 4: 35:52

Yeah. It's awesome. And I mean, it's so sad. Like growing up when I went to Korea and Korea is not quite as ubiquitous as Japan, the comic book industry there, but it was pretty much everywhere because they would translate the Japanese comics into Korean. And it's just sort of, I come back to Rochester, New York. Right. And it was just sort of like, it went from one place where art was everywhere, you know, like in every crevice, you know, just like in the newspapers and on the, you know, like on the buildings and just on trains and just every instruction had more embellishment with art that made it more attractive and memorable and just, it just there's art everywhere. And then I came to Rocha's back to home, to Rochester and is like this sort of a desert of create. And I, and I know Americans are super creative and we're all, you know, we got, you know, so many amazing things that we create here, but I feel like when it comes to like the public square, it's still not kind of leaked into it as much as I would like to see it personally, more art in public. And, and I feel like a comics culture can help with that a lot because, um, you know, comics can sort of invigorate that creative spirit and that, that sort of drive to doodle everywhere. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And I see that when I go to Japan and Korea, I'd like to see that here and there have been outliers here in the United States, Martin made like, you know, huge, huge strides in that regard when I think of Charles Schultz and everything to do with peanuts and Snoopy, Snoopy's everywhere. It's quietly this huge thing here, but almost nobody in comics talks about peanuts, which is, it's kind of, it's like, you know, um, you know, you go into the comics industry and it's just a whole nother world. It's, it's like kind of a alternate universe where, you know, it feels like almost comics, aren't accessory and then history with this. I mean, I think that's, I shouldn't say things like that, but like, it just felt like that to me, growing up in a household where it was common knowledge and totally accepted that women were some of the top comics creators in the world, you know? And then when I went to school of visual arts is just like, we need more women in comics. And I just never really thought about it because I already know there's places around the world where that's possible. It wasn't like maybe women don't like cons. It's like, of course they do. It's just, we don't have it established here. And how interesting kids, like it was just considered weird to do art and you're kind of an outsider. Um, if you were to make comics and cartoons, and I think a lot of the people who would end up doing it, they embraced that the being the outsider to be kind a loner in a way. Um, and that I think has a negative net effect over time. I mean, I love all that stuff that indie comics and the underground comics are so cool, but, but there needs to be more for it to be a sustainable thing. Like, you know, like we need comics for everybody just for businessmen and people who like sports and just people who like romance, there needs to be comments for everybody. And, you know, the opportunity is there now. I've never seen it like this before. And I'm just so grateful for everybody doing graphic novels right now to be present and doing the work that they do. I mean, it's awesome. I don't think my book, for example, would have had a chance even, I don't know, like 10, 15 years ago, things have changed so quickly.

Speaker 2: 39:23

I want to talk Kraft briefly. Um, obviously you are both writing and illustrating your own graphic novels. And I'm curious with you, you know, being married, sharing a workspace, do you have very similar processes, uh, or do you have very different processes? Do you bounce ideas off of each other? How does that work?

Speaker 4: 39:51

I mean, it's pretty similar. It's similar, but then there's huge differences. I think in principle we have a different way of approaching story writing. Like the stories come to us in different, at a different pace, but like when it comes to straight up production, it's almost exactly the same. I'd say, yeah, Amy is way more organized and way more professional than I am. But I mean, when she says she does something, she does it like pretty much like, as she plans to do it, I tend to be kind of fly by the seat of my pants. Um, I'm like a jazz player slash surfer skater kid. Okay. I'll share, I'll do it. And then I just roll in and I'm like, oh my goodness, this is a way crazier than I thought it was going to be. Let's see if I can make it work. He watches that process and she thinks that she and her assistant Audra think that I'm crazy. So, um, when I do the, that type of thing and I actually enjoy that, I like enjoy just being, driving us crazy, you know, just, um, like I like being, you know, I liked putting, testing myself in a, in a, in a situation where the like, not, there's not a lot, that's in my control. I can, you know, I wanna, I wanna see like how I can get through it. It's a it's I think it's just the athlete. I mean, like, I love sports and, and that's, that's what you're doing all the time is like, how prepared are you to handle a high pressure moment? Um, and I, uh, because I, I mean I'm old and I didn't go through, you know, like with playing professional sports or anything like that. Um, I feel like if I can find something like that in my comics, I, I get really, I get extra excited and I don't think I'm alone in this with comics because I talked to, um, you know, Jeanie Schultz, uh, you know, Charles Schultz, his wife, Charles Schultz was like this. Um, it was very similar and I think there's a lot of, they're just a lot of the top cartoonists have, um, have that, um, competitive drive. You know, that's a, that's a beat people, but just to like Excel at something and be in a tough situation and, and creatively navigate their way through it. So, so when I write, I write like that, and it's one of the reasons why I make comics and not movies. I, because I studied film, I studied screenwriting. I went to film school. I w worked in the film industry. And that was like the last day job I had. And the problem that I had creatively working in film was that everything needed to be planned. Everything needed to be approved. And one of the great things about being a writer and working in publishing is that I am, I'm allowed a lot more freedom to just freelance on my story and just kind of, you know, just explore things, um, in ways that I couldn't do, if I was under the strain of, uh, of a big budget production, you know, because time is of the essence. When you have 50 people on the clock on something, um, 50 to a thousand people are waiting on you to make a decision. Um, whereas in, in publishing, you know, it's, it's mostly just, you know, um, the publishers are waiting of course, and everybody down the chain who have to sell the books, you know, they're waiting of course. Um, but you know, there's, there's just a lot more creative control when it comes to, um, alleviating and applying pressure to the creative process in publishing that I think, you know, garners better results in story, which is reflected in how, like, when they make movies, they're often making them based on content, main books. I was thinking of the part to that question where you're like, do you guys bounce ideas back and forth? I think, I think we don't anymore. We used to, when we first got married and caused a lot of butting heads and we're just like, we shouldn't do that anymore. So these days we don't, I will read amulet when it's all done, you know, just in case and like, um, same with Kazu he'll read and when I've finished them, they're like the whole thing. But there is one idea that he was really adamant about me keeping in my book and I really wanted to cut it because I thought it was so cheesy. And I just wanted to share with you guys, okay. So the main character Tabby has this ring. It's like a translator ring where like, cause you know, I kept getting the question, like, how does she know what they're saying? And Raymond, do they speak another language? And so I was like, sure, if they do, and I'll just give her a translator ring and I had one scene where she had it and that was it. And then I was never going to really mention it again because it was like, no, you got to really play up that translator rank. You should have a scene where like he takes it up or she takes it up and he just sounds like gibberish or so I put that scene in there for him and, uh, it's become one of my favorites, but I don't know about those things. And I feel like that's the stuff, that's the stuff that comics are so great. Well, I think stories you want to live in the stories and those little details allow readers to like hang out and engage. Um, and oftentimes we cut that type of stuff out in service of plot. Yeah. And that's where, when there's too many cooks in the kitchen, too many other beers or something too many, too much feedback can usually cut out all the charming things that, you know, it's only going to hit maybe half the potential audience, but, you know, but for those 50% or maybe 30% of people don't find it really, really special. And they'll just remember or remember the book forever.

Speaker 2: 45:20

Well, I love hearing that. Um, cause I know I will talk to, uh, you know, whether married couples who are both writers or friends who are really, really close and they'll say, oh, we share everything. Like if I, if, as soon as I get a new idea, I'm telling my husband or, you know, as soon as I write a chapter, she's the first one to critique it or whatever. And every time I hear those stories, I just feel like that would not work for my marriage at all. That would be horrible for us. Um, and my husband's not a writer, but even now, like there will be times when I'll be like, okay, I need to talk through this, this plot with you. I don't want it feedback. I'm not looking for ideas. I just need to talk it out.

Speaker 4: 46:06

Yeah. I, I have to sometimes say that to, uh, to my assistant Jason and my editor too. I just know that I'm in a place where, um, if I get feedback, it'll like lose this time on production, send me down roads where I explore them when I already explored them in my mind. But then if someone gives me feedback that makes me second, guess that decision I'll end up doing this, making the same mistakes twice. I dunno if I, so I often like there's spaces in a production of a book where I need to say, please don't give me any feedback and this particular period, because it would, it would really damage our schedule. Um, the editor has been really, really good at just knowing when to apply the pressure and when not to, she's just been really good at just working around both Amy and me. Um, we share the same editor Cassandra.

Speaker 2: 47:05

She has been, she's been good. All right. Last question. Before we move on to our bonus round, um, so you both obviously have been creating and, and making comics and graphic novels for many, many years. I want to know how do you continue to find joy in this work?

Speaker 4: 47:27

I think one of the reasons I came back to comics and what attracted me to comics to begin with is that it's just, there is no end to the unlimited potential of it all. You know, you can, anything that you're interested in. And I think it's the same way for writing. I mean, you could be suddenly fascinated by what is Marine biology all about, you know, and, or like, what's, what's about what, you know, you want to do a deep dive into like, um, astronomy or something. You can put that into your work. And, um, I feel that way with comics, I don't think I'll ever get bored. I just think it's a, you know, it's a medium like, and with any medium, it's a, it's a vehicle for information and I'm always learning something new to pass through my books. Um, and that part of it is always exciting. And the more I do comics that the it's not easier, but like I'm, I have more tools as time goes on and I'm more comfortable using those tools. And so, um, you know, the more and more you do it, the more and more you're speaking, you're speaking, instead of working hard to form the words does that makes, and I think when you're starting, if you're starting as an artist and writer in graphic novels, you're probably more focused on whether or not you can draw the thing and finish the thing rather than, um, focusing on what to say through the thing, you know, through the work. Um, and, uh, it's nice now to be in a place where I can just focus on showing things that I think I can imagine things I imagine. And speaking the words that I, I just like to pass along. Um, and once you get into that mode where you're just playing the music without looking at the notes, or just, you're just kind of rolling through it, um, you know, it just, it just, um, I dunno, you know, it's as interesting as you want to make it, I guess, and it's not as, uh, it's not as burdensome, the skills sets aren't as burdensome. This reminds me of something you said the other day because you, where you're at, you're saying that like, um, uh, as you're writing and if the idea is not good, the drawings don't turn out very good. So that sometimes I hear you saying like, why aren't these Johns turning out? Right. And it's like, because you're not interested in what you're trying to draw, you know? So I think in that way, like with comics, especially like the drawings informed the writing and the writing and funds and drawings, and it's like the sort of tennis match back and forth between the two. And that's true of the book. The book often tells us when to stop writing or figure out something that we haven't figured out because it's drawing just gets hard all of a sudden, and it's like, the magic goes away. And then that's when we just stop and listen and read and study.

Speaker 2: 50:22

No, that makes so much sense. And I know for prose writing, like we see this similar phenomenon happening where you'll get to a scene that, oh, it just feels like it's dragging on. Why can't I get the dialogue to sparkle? Why can't the plot just got so boring all of a sudden, and similarly, it's those scenes that you realize, oh, I'm just not in love with this. And you kind of have to pause and then go back to the drawing board and figure out, okay, how can I make this work? How can I make myself excited about it? Because it's going to show through in the right,

Speaker 4: 50:58

The characters start saying things like, what are we doing? I don't know.

Speaker 2: 51:07

Awesome. You guys, we are going to wrap this up now with our happy writer bonus round. Right? First question. What book makes you happy?

Speaker 4: 51:17

Happy? Um, well the book I always, I always, uh, pull up is cannery row. That's just a book. I go back to, to remind myself why I write that's the one that started writing. So, um, so cannery rose, that was that book does doesn't make you happy? Um, it makes me calm and I think that's happy. I mean, I just, I don't know. I try not to get too high or too low, so I like it. I like, you're not like skipping down the street. I think that there would be like, uh, a dip after that, you know, all of a sudden I just crash and I'm depressed or something. So I like when I read cannery row, no matter where I'm at, I just think it brings me back to center and I go, oh yeah, that's that's right. That's, you know, that's life right there. I'd say how's moving castle really happy. I just read it out loud to our kids Taren. I was very happy that they were happy with it also.

Speaker 2: 52:19

Um, I cannot, it's sitting on our to read to the kids shelf, so I'm so excited to read it to them.

Speaker 4: 52:25

Great. Do the voices. And I think it's super fun. I mean, it's the only book that I ever read. And then I had to go back to the beginning and read it all over again. And I did it in one setting. I don't know. It just really resonates with me. I love that book. Yeah,

Speaker 2: 52:39

No, I love it too. What is your personal mantra?

Speaker 4: 52:46

Um, um, lower your expectations because I'm also a perfectionist. So I tell myself that a lot, one of my, my, my, my first employer out of college, um, is a really wise and funny guy. Who's been through a lot in his life and he's done so many things. Um, you know, when, when he saw that I w I was, I was working for him as a graphic designer. He didn't know I drew cartoons and stuff, and he saw it. And you looked at the work that I did. And I said, uh, and he asked me, wait a minute, why are you not doing that? And I said, uh, oh, well, there's, you know, nobody wants to pay me for this. Like, it's just cartoons. And everyone thinks it's garbage. Um, you know, so I'm doing corporate graphic design. Cause that's what people want, you know, and you kind of just looked at me and kinda like, Hmm. And I saw the card, the art, and you just said, you do what you do. And it just stuck with me for a long time. Yeah, I know. So that's my mantra. And I go, you do what you do. And some things out, and sometimes somebody might look, you know, look at me and go, what do you mean? And I'm just thinking, well, you know, you can say you're going to do something, but until you you're actually doing it, you're not, you're not doing it. So I know it sounds simple. And, but I think it, it can, like, it can untether a lot of really complicated knots in somebody's life if they just go after the thing and just do the thing, um, you know, and you know, there's just less complication. Hmm. How

Speaker 2: 54:25

Do you feel the creative? Well,

Speaker 4: 54:29

Hmm, really depends on why the well is empty. Um, I mean, sometimes it, for me it would be, um, well, for example, just randomly, I was watching, I think it's called video game historian and YouTube, and they had a little history about, um, uh, Santoro, Waka the former CEO and president of Nintendo, and it was just really inspiring and that kind of refilled my well, I dunno, it's random. Yeah. I guess just listening to things, just kind of being willing to, you know, kind of get out of a box to go see different things and read different things and just seek out that stuff. And, you know, just, I think the more stuff you just sort of put it in front of you or travel through or go seek out, uh, you will just find something in the process of doing that. Uh, that'll inform the work. Um, you know, so if one of the worst places I would, I could be when I'm writing is just sitting and looking at the piece of paper and forcing it out, that would mean I'm generating information that is not there. So it, or it'll just be something that I have just sitting dormant in me. And maybe that's the thing that I need, but most of the time it's not. So I just try to put myself into stream of information somewhere where like talking with my friends at the bookstore or the bike shop, or, you know, just go out and paddleboard, I dunno, anything. Then there's like some little thing that happens that becomes the inspiration. Um, you know, when you're fishing for this stuff, you don't, you don't, you don't know where the fish are, but you know, the, the older I get the better I am at, at fishing for these things. So I just, um, go and do these things when everyone, like, what's it doing? Is he he's skiing all the time. He was willing to see doing them. And maybe he kind of knows. That's just my writing concepts. Nobody believes me when I tell them, I'm just like, don't worry, he's writing.

Speaker 2: 56:38

What is your favorite thing to do that has nothing to do with reading or writing or in your case drawing?

Speaker 4: 56:48

Right now, I'm really loving. I have a little garden in the backyard and that brings me some joy every day and also cooking I'm really into like cooking strange things. Like I made some daikon fruit, pickles the other day that our daughter just left. That was really fun. Yeah. Um, just being with the family, I guess I didn't run into everything. I liked everything. Um, and then, and then just playing sports, like mountain biking, basketball or something, but spending time with the family, that's like always number one that's most of our days.

Speaker 2: 57:33

So I always ask, what are you working on next? I feel like we may have covered that with both of you, but is there anything we didn't cover?

Speaker 4: 57:43

No, I'm just working on book two and trying to wrap up, um, the cover for book one. We're still working on that. Um, but yeah, that's about it for me. Just so I'll remind all the time now. Yeah. And, um, after nine, um, I'll be working on, uh, a standalone graphic novel. Um, that's, uh, gotta to be a little bit different than anything I've done before. Um, but it's something I've been working on for a long, long time. Uh, and aside from that, I've noticed not much I can talk about, I think on the film side, there's, you know, the news, no news right now, but you know, it's likely that I'll probably be involved in some way to make that happen. Now, now that I know what I can afford to, to, to give to a project like that in terms of time, um, I'll, I'll be able to be a collaborator, um, with people making a film or show. I think

Speaker 2: 58:43

That is super exciting. Lastly, where can people find you?

Speaker 4: 58:52

Um, Amy? Well, I guess I'm sort of on Twitter. I try to not engage in social media too much cause it distracts me from my maternal duties. So find me on Twitter at[inaudible] and I'm also on Instagram, that's more of my cooking stuff. They don't really post art there that's but that might change in the future. It's also at Amy Rishi on Instagram. Yeah. And um, at bolt city, B O L T C I T Y Twitter, Instagram.

Speaker 2: 59:24

Excellent. Amy, cause you thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 4: 59:30

Thank you for inviting

Speaker 2: 59:32

Readers. Definitely check out amulets. Most of the books are out now. We will all continue to wait with bated breath for the finale. Um, and of course, realm of the blue mist book, one of the Rima Chronicles coming out next year, it is available for pre-order. Of course, we always encourage you to support your local independent bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. Next week, I am super looking forward to talking to Julie Murphy author of dumpling. We will be talking about her debut adult romance. If the shoe fits along with the other 8 million projects she has had going on this year. So I definitely hope you will tune in and join us. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little[inaudible].