From Classic Literature to Modern Horror with Tori Bovalino - The Devil Makes Three

Marissa chats with Tori Bovalino about her debut young adult novel - THE DEVIL MAKES THREE - as well as tapping into your own fears in order to write effective horror and really scare your readers; treating your setting as its own character, and using real-life locations to hone in on atmospheric details; how completing higher education can change our creative process and impact our career goals; some ways that classic literature can inspire us, and perhaps encourage a bit more sarcasm and wit; and some suggestions for including religious elements in your story without imposing specific beliefs on the work. 

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 0:10

Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I'm your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. What's been making me happy this week. It's a little thing, but as you know, sometimes the little things are my favorites, uh, and that is it. Many years ago, my husband and I planted a ton of lavender plants in our garden. And some like right in front of my office where I am now. And over the years they have gotten huge. And now this time of year, they are just swarming with honeybees and bumblebees. And every time I walk past, I can hear their little cute little buzzing noises. And it's so pretty. And it just builds me through this joy because obviously I consider myself, you know, something of an environmentalist I'm by no means perfect, but I'm trying, I do my best. And I can feel like, at least this is one thing that I have gotten, right. I have done my part to help the poor honeybee population. So, and plus they just smell so nice. It's a little thing, but it really does bring me a lot of joy this time of year. And of course I am super happy to be talking to today's guest. She holds a bachelor's in English and anthropology, a master's degree in creative writing and is currently pursuing her PhD in English, her debut novel. The devil makes three comes out tomorrow on August 10th. Please. Welcome Tori Bova Lino. Hi. Well, welcome on your lunch week. How are you feeling? I'm

Speaker 3: 2:03

Feeling good. I'm really excited. Um, just for people to read it. I remember when I was younger and thinking about publishing books, my one goal was that I want it to be one person's favorite book. And if that happens, then I'm solid and I can just, you know, retire. So

Speaker 2: 2:19

Fingers crossed. Would you though, would you be just like, oh, I'm done. I got this reader email. They say on their favorite, I'm just moving onto the next hobby. Maybe

Speaker 3: 2:29

More like the pressure's off. I can like subpar from now.

Speaker 2: 2:34

Right, right. We've accomplished it we've hit that goal goal. No, I like it because for me it was, um, I just wanted to see my name on my bookshelf. Uh, and that was like, that's it if I get there, but of course then you get there and it's, it's never, it there's always the next goal and the next dream. But, but I like that one to be one person's favorite.

Speaker 3: 2:55

Exactly. Um, I haven't even thought of my name on a bookshelf, mine or anyone else's yet. So like I'll probably panic. It it'll be great.

Speaker 2: 3:07

Panic is an unusual reaction going to be great. Oh, sorry. I just got a weird, uh, got a weird ding on my computer. Oh no. Do not restart now. Windows update would be terrible timing. Amazing. All right. Um, so one thing that we is kind of new, that we've been doing on this podcast is starting out our chat by talking about your author origin story. Um, so that can be like, how did you know you wanted to be a writer? It could be how you got your agent, how this, your debut novel came to be kind of wherever you want to go with that. What is your author origin story? Yeah. Um,

Speaker 3: 3:54

So I always wanted to be a writer, so it was more of like convincing myself that I had the toolkit to do it, um, rather than any, oh, I don't know what anyone to do with my life, but kind of training myself. So I'll go for, go for my origin story of like how this book came to be. Um, and that was, I was on submission with a different book. It was about mermaids and that was on submission for like six or seven months, which now I know is kind of like no time at all, but I was panicking again. I was like, oh, I don't think this is going to happen. And so I'd had like an inkling of an idea and it took me three or four rewrites of the first three or four chapters, to be honest, to feel like I got the voice. And then once I got the voice down, it all kind of worked out. But the other book was still on submission. And I sent this one to my agents and I basically said to them, I just want to check if this is still good. If this is a thing that is better than the other one. Um, or if we should consider, you know, shifting the conversation from being on sub to put, putting something new on submission. Um, because I think like once you, the second book, not only that you write, but the second book that you send to your agents, it's kind of difficult and it's a little bit different simply because you know, coming out of the query trenches, it's like, okay, so they see something in me, but what if, what if that was a fluke? What if this second stuff? No. Um, so I sent it to them and they ended up coming back and saying, oh, this is actually, you know, we think this is stronger. So we went on submission with, um, it was called ink at that time. So I still in my head call it ink. Um, yeah, I don't know. And so we did like rounds and rounds of revision and I thought I was going to give up, like, I nearly set the draft on fire more than once. Um, and then

Speaker 2: 5:57

Quite fitting for this book. It really wanted, it

Speaker 3: 6:01

Really would. Um, but I don't, no, because it was on sub for like six months before we got the notice that, um, Lauren, my editor wanted to acquire it. So yeah, that's, that's the origin of this book. It was the book that I wrote for myself when I didn't know if I could write any more. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:24

Okay. So first question that comes to mind. You say agents plural. Yes. You have multiple agents. I have

Speaker 3: 6:33

Two, they work together and they're wonderful and interesting. Yeah. So my two agents, so it's Amelia apple and ulva stander. Um, so Amelia was, um, just starting out when I signed with her. So it was kind of like I'm in that triangulation of like agent training. Um, but she's wonderful and they're both good at dealing. I was going to say dealing with me, but it's nice because they're both editorial in different rates. So I feel like I get just like a very cohesive experience of polishing my work before we go on submission or before anything happens.

Speaker 2: 7:16

Yeah. Yeah. And always nice to have even more people in your court. Yes,

Speaker 3: 7:21

Exactly. Um, and they're, they're wonderful and they work wonderfully together, so it all is great.

Speaker 2: 7:29

Nice. I'm curious. Do you think anything will ever come of the mermaid book or is that like, so ancient history at this point? You know,

Speaker 3: 7:37

I out, I feel like every six months, especially since it's the first book and a duology and my family has read it, so they have, um, threatened me lightly if I don't finish it. Um, and tell them how it ends, because that's my style. So I think eventually I'll return to it, but it's what I do now is a lot more, I've kind of leaned into those elements of horror that I didn't know, I could really put into, whereas that one's a lot more contemporary fantasy.

Speaker 2: 8:13

Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So

Speaker 3: 8:15

I don't, I very possibly might. It comes out every now and then.

Speaker 2: 8:19

Yeah, no, it's funny. Cause mermaids are, I mean, they're kind of like vampires or dystopia. Like they're one of those trends that comes and goes there's ebbs and flows. And so it's like, you kind of got to hit it right on the mark with your timing. Um, otherwise people in publishing just don't know what to do with you.

Speaker 3: 8:40

And it's also one of those things that mermaids, I feel like haven't happened in the same way that vampires have or angels have. So, you know, stop trying to make mermaids happen, who doesn't love mermaids though. Weird, like so much folklore out there and I love full Gloria. So

Speaker 2: 9:02

Yeah, it's just fun. What I love about mermaids is that they can go like to these extremes, they can be super dark and murderous and wicked and evil, or they can be very happy and loving Debby and you know, wants to be human and all of these things like there's the huge spectrum.

Speaker 3: 9:22

Exactly. There's and there's also just like the beauty, but the decay and all of that in every

Speaker 2: 9:29

Basic. Yeah. Right, right. Okay. Well, let's talk about the book that did get published. That was coming out this week. The devil makes three. Um, I almost said ink because I remember, I remember seeing on your website that that was the original title and now it's going to be in my head too. The devil makes three, would you please tell listeners, what is it about?

Speaker 3: 9:55

It is about two teenagers who, um, find a book in their library, read it out loud and accidentally release the devil. At which point they have to do anything in their power to contain him again before he kills everyone that they love in short.

Speaker 2: 10:12

I love how you just gave that pitch. Like it's about two teenagers. They just accidentally released the devil. Um, okay. So despite your very kind of airy cheerful way of saying that, um, it is a very dark, I'm trying to think what is, what is the right word for it? I mean, it's, there's a creepiness to this book. It's very atmospheric. Um, it's horror without being, I guess there are some kind of gory parts, but it's not like gory horror. I wouldn't say it's more, you know, devils and curses and magic and witchcraft and all of this, um, Cobb, I'm a cob, that's a good one. That's, that's a winner. Um, so tell me, I'm especially interested now hearing that your previous novel had been more on the contemporary angle and now you've switched into this kind of horror space. Just talk to me a little bit about writing this book and how did you go about, uh, creating just this like super dark and eerie vibe that kind of permeates everything throughout the book?

Speaker 3: 11:30

I think that, so things that scare me, I feel like are a good place to start scaring other people. Um, I have an overactive imagination, which I think every author does, but when I was working in a library in my junior year of college, I was like in the stacks by myself all the time, because that was the nature of the library I worked in. And so I kind of got into my head at one point when I was working there at night, that there could be anything in the stacks with me and I would just not know. Um, so I think building off of that idea really helped with the atmosphere. And I scared myself at that job for like the next six months trying to build, but what's going to be scarier. What if it's like here or like there, or like what is actually the scariest thing I could think of coming after me in this library? Um, so that was really important to kind of building the atmosphere. And the other thing that I did, especially later on, I've always just loved horror novels. Um, and I felt like when I was a kid, I feel like I read all the fear street books and all the goosebumps books. And then I just jumped straight into Stephen King and I read a lot of like why a horror that was out there, but none of it kind of got into the level of, I don't know, I was a kid and I would like to gore gory detail that I was looking for. So I wanted to get into that. Um, kind of not, it's not an empty space anymore. I think there are amazing, um, who are offerings and why, especially now, but when I was 12, not that I would recommend my own book to a 12 year old, but when I, as well, that was kind of like the level of detail and atmosphere that I wanted.[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 13:23

Do you think it's different writing horror for teens versus for adults? Like how, how many restrictions are there from the market from publishing versus maybe what, what restrictions writers might be putting on themselves when they're delving into this genre?

Speaker 3: 13:43

I think it kind of depends. Cause I felt like I had definitely written things too gory and we always have to keep in mind the gatekeepers when we're writing for children, like with this, get into a library, how would parents feel? Am I just dressing this up? But I feel like I have gotten enough of a positive response and there are content warnings in the book itself as well. That kind of outline what's going on. Um, childhood itself is a very scary time of transition and there are a lot of really creepy things that happen to kids. Um, there's this area of like liminality. So I think writing for children and teenagers, you kind of have to keep in mind the scary things that kids are already facing and like build that in. So me being twenty-five the scariest thing that I can think of right now is taxes, but I was like 17. Yeah. The scariest thing I could think of was like, you know, like interpersonal drama and what if my parents were mad at me or like, what if I didn't have my parents to rely on or what if I had to make adult decisions for myself and I just was not prepared for them. So I think those kinds of ideas of this liminal space of young adulthood in something that, um, why a horror can really play off of, in a way that adult or isn't able to,

Speaker 2: 15:10

No, that's interesting in a, you know, one thing that I like about a lot of horror in the genre is that, you know, when it does kind of push boundaries, but it also, like it recognizes that kids and young people and teenagers are capable of handling so much more than some people give them credit for. Um, and I know for me, like, I don't know, I almost feel like I was braver as a teenager than I am now at somethings. Absolutely. I just think of the things

Speaker 3: 15:43

That you did when you were a teenager and then I would not do 80% of that now

Speaker 2: 15:51

Creeping a hip. No, totally. No. I remember making a bucket list with my roommate in college and like really high on the list was I want to go skydiving and I was so determined and I never got to it. And now I'm like, there is no way in heck I am ever going to go sky diving. Yeah. That, that ship has sailed anyway. Um, I want to go back to you talking about working in this library. I am so excited to hear that you actually did work in a big creepy library because that was one of the things that I loved most about this book. Is it so much of it takes place in this just dark dusty, old library filled with old tomes and books. And I mean, just, I felt like I was there, um, and hearing that you had an experience where you actually are kind of basing this on a real place, just clarifies for me like why that setting worked so well. And anyway, so just talk to me a little bit about developing the setting of the library and it almost becomes how must be like the library and this book is its own character in a way. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 17:09

It was definitely something that I was, um, very focused on basically. So the library's actually ripped out of straight life, like, you know, defining it, describing it, what it was located, like where it's located. So it's, it's based on the Frick fine arts library. It's part of the university of Pittsburgh's campus. Um, and there's a reading room and then stacks. And if you work there, you have to go pull all the patrons books, but it's artists books. So it's not just like your run of the mill, like, oh, I need to research stuff. So it's just like the weirdest stuff is in there. And I loved it. It was amazing, but it wouldn't just be conventional things there'd would be like weird religious texts that were considered art now. Um, and these interactive kind of books and then cages where we had special collections and things like that. So I was kind of when I, when I first started writing it, actually it was a college setting. Um, and I shifted that specifically because I wanted them to have more of that like internal trauma of childhood, um, as well as for the Margaret, but, you know, so when I was writing the library, it was very important to me, for it to be kind of defined and on its own because the devil itself, he is the library, he occupies the library and he is kind of like ink in its base form. And how do you fight that when you're surrounded by it? So that was something that I was kind of coherently thinking of while I was writing the book and I wanted, I like, I do feel like setting is such an important part of every book that we write. And that's something that I feel like I need to be in tune with to get, you know, the atmosphere. Right. And then how do the characters react to this setting versus another setting? Um, but it should be its own character and it feels like that way, I think. And that's quite important to me in my own writing that I maintain that idea.

Speaker 2: 19:17

Yeah. Well, and it works really well. And there was actually one point cause like you talk about like the devil in this book, uh, has control over ink and is, you know, frequently manipulating ink in different ways, which like you don't realize how creepy that is until you're reading the book. And there was actually one point where I paused reading and just looked around the room that I was sitting in and realized how I was just surrounded by ink. And you don't think about it, like the books, the magazines, the mail on the table, the posters on the wall. And it's like, oh boy, if ink could attack you, this is very terrifying. And where should we place this book? Clearly it should be in a library.

Speaker 3: 20:02

Exactly. We're literally surrounded by it. And even though we're all very techie, like I am a fountain pen enthusia. So like I just have vials of ink on my desk and I would be completely destroyed and even the life immediately

Speaker 2: 20:18

Escaping. So one thing that I thought was really cool that you decided to do in this book, we've got two main characters, um, alternating points and points of view between tests and Elliot are protagonists, but every now and then you feed us a chapter from the point of view of the devil, where did that idea come from?

Speaker 3: 20:43

Um, so I wanted the devil to feel like an omnipresent character where you didn't know when he was going to pop up. Um, and the devil parts are written in second person, which actually wasn't my idea. It was my friend's idea when we were trying to figure out how to get it in without, you know, a third character really. Um, and in doing that, I kind of want, because the, the base of the devil storyline is kind of this foul Stijn bargain. Um, so I wanted to make sure that the reader kind of sees through the devil's eyes, why this bargain would come to be, or what was at stake. So then you could kind of see it echoed in Tessa storyline as well. Um, but that kind of, what do we sacrifice to be good at? The thing we're good at is what I really wanted to get at with the devil's perspective.[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 21:35

Would you make a deal to be like universal best selling most loved author of all time? You know,

Speaker 3: 21:43

I don't think that deal, but I would definitely make a deal for like an old English country house with a turret,

Speaker 2: 21:52

Which seems like something one could probably accomplish without bargaining with the devil.

Speaker 3: 21:57

Now that you bring that up. I think the deal with the devil is probably a bad idea though.

Speaker 2: 22:01

It seems yeah. Maybe to be avoided. Yeah. I

Speaker 3: 22:08

Don't think I would make any fallacy in bargains because I'm quite, um, restrained in my decisions,

Speaker 2: 22:16

But

Speaker 3: 22:17

I know a few people who would,

Speaker 2: 22:20

Well, I mean, but that's one thing that I loved, um, is it tests, uh, our, one of our main characters, like she's very ambitious and in a lot of ways the world is kind of set against her or at least she feels like things have been set against her and she, you know, is having to struggle to make her way in the world. Um, and, and I love those scenes where the devil is trying to tempt her. And it does kind of make you pause and think about it, like what would tempt me? Yeah.

Speaker 3: 22:54

I mean, I do say that I wouldn't make a deal, but now that you say what would tempt me? Not a lot. Yeah know. And I think like, just to get on a level of these characters are driven by interpersonal relationships. So like I don't live close to home at all. And especially with the situations that we've been going through, like, what would I give to hug my mom? Like those kinds of things. And like, I think that if we don't think about it as much in terms of ambition, but what, what I tried to kind of, you know, be able to see my family on a frequent regular basis or get something else that I want for like emotional fulfillment. That's not career driven or career-based even though, you know, the root of Faust legends is career-based or ambition. Um,

Speaker 2: 23:46

I think I would take that deal. Yeah. I can see how those would be a lot more tempting for sure.

Speaker 3: 23:52

Yeah. And I think if, if, uh, the devil offered Elliot that he'd be like, yo yeah,

Speaker 2: 24:00

There's a little bit of like, you know, with ambition goals or career goals, like for many people you can come back to, well, I can always work harder. I can always, you know, strategize more, blah, blah, blah. Maybe I can accomplish this on my own. Whereas you can see how the devil might be in a position to offer you things that would otherwise be impossible. Yeah,

Speaker 3: 24:25

Exactly. And I think that in the case of tests in this particular book and also in the original files tails, the problem of timing and patients versus ambition into it, and we feel that all the time is writers. I'm sure. Whereas I feel like a lot of times the ideas I have might not be, I might not be good enough to pursue them, or I might not be at that level of craft and it might take years before I get there.

Speaker 2: 24:54

Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, that's definitely something that I struggle with. Um, all the time is just like the sheer amount of ideas that I have. And knowing that if I were to write non-stop for the rest of my life, I'm still not going to have enough time to write them all. And that like hangs over my head constantly.

Speaker 3: 25:17

Absolutely. Also re realizing that you're not going to read all the books you want. Oh,

Speaker 2: 25:22

I hate that so much worse. Why do writers keep writing new things time to catch up on all the old ones

Speaker 3: 25:32

I'm currently reading war and peace for reasons and not like, like for my cool, but it's like a lot.

Speaker 2: 25:43

Yeah. Are you at all feeling like I just don't have time for this teacher yet?

Speaker 3: 25:48

No, I am. I have like 900 pages to go and I've already read like 500 pages. So

Speaker 2: 25:55

How was it? I've never read it actually

Speaker 3: 25:58

Really, really good. I mean, I like Tolstoy anyways, so I guess it's just kind of the next step in my reading Russian literature journey, but

Speaker 2: 26:07

It's, it's really, we were all on that journey. Right.

Speaker 3: 26:11

Eventually we wave at the train of fresh and literature as a path was really genuinely good. And I think it's really interesting how old literature balances, um, like there's something snarky about like older classics that there's such a good level of sarcasm that comes in that I wish that I could use in a more contemporary way. And I'm just not talented enough to do that.

Speaker 2: 26:41

I'm not sure. I agree with you not being in talented, but I also know what you're saying that sometimes you read something and you're just like, how, how do I get there?

Speaker 3: 26:51

Yes. Like the wits level. I love that.

Speaker 2: 26:54

Yeah. I know some writers are really witty. Yeah. Amazing. So kind of going back to, um, you have this character, the devil, uh, the book is full of a cult things which craft, um, possession, you know, these various things, there's a lot of like religious elements, but at no point, does this feel like a religious book? Um, and I'm really curious, was it difficult to walk that line for you?

Speaker 3: 27:33

Yes and no. Yes. In that I think that I like, again, as you said, there are a lot of religious elements in there, but I didn't want the book to have any religious cast preference or way or decision. Um, but so I think, I think it was difficult to also not impose any beliefs that I was raised with into the book, because I don't like, who knows what anything is anymore. Um, but I think that it was fun to kind of find different, um, religious elements that go across different religions to incorporate. Um, cause I think those kinds of elements of folklore and section, or in fact are always kind of fun to bring in and see what kind of similarities these different religions and different cultures have. Um, yeah, I think it was definitely difficult though, to kind of keep it non conforming to anything in particular. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:43

Yeah. Yeah. And

Speaker 3: 28:44

I also don't really write religious books, but when you're dealing with something like the devil, there's always going to be that connotation. So you kind of have to confront it.

Speaker 2: 28:57

Yeah, no, cause I I'm, part of the reason I want to ask is because I am working on, um, I have one of my secret side projects that I'm not really allowed to talk about. Um, the villains potentially could change at this stage, but might be the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Um, and so like immediately it's like, well this is a, a Christian, a biblical thing. And, but I don't want it to be a book that draws on, you know, a ton of Christian mythology. And so then you just start, like, it just immediately starts bringing up all of these questions of, well, how much do you take liberties with this? How much do you kind of go off and do your own thing versus on the source material? And anyway, so it's kind of something that I'm juggling myself right now. And in reading this book, it just really made me curious, like how many conversations were you having with yourself to try to strike that balance? So

Speaker 3: 29:56

Many. Um, and so one thing that was kind of important to me to how to sort of isolate this idea of, is it a religion? Is it not, is that through the characters perceptions? So when Tess is introducing the devil, she says that if I'm, am I quoting myself correctly, we shall see, he says that she calls him the devil because that's what her religion would do. So that's kind of her context of this idea, but I also use devil and demon quite interchangeably. And I feel like most religions have demons and most non well, a lot of non-religious people kind of acknowledged this idea of if you're spiritual, there's such a thing as bad spirits. I think that with the idea of this idea of belongs to a specific religion, there's also so many varieties of the same idea repeated in other places. So if, if the character would be like, oh, this is what I associate this with, that it does totally make sense in the context. And we back to the angel boom. Um, it was so interesting in reading all of the angel books when I was growing up and seeing kind of how they interpreted religion and religious texts or veered away.

Speaker 2: 31:17

Right. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a really tricky question,

Speaker 3: 31:24

Um, or just situation to bring into your own writing. And I personally would not recommend it to anyone. Well, there's that advice. I think it's one of those things that like, it's going to be in the context of like your world and the characters world

Speaker 2: 31:52

And yeah, no, and that's, I mean, for me, at least in this case, I'm writing a contemporary world where, you know, you can put yourself a little bit into the mind of the character and think, well, if this was happening, what would I think or feel or believe about it. And, and so just like right there, you can kind of tap into, you know, logically speaking, if this was happening to a modern teenager, what, where would their mind go with that? Yeah,

Speaker 3: 32:25

Yeah, exactly. And also in like a non-modern fantasy context, I think the year of the witching does this really well. It's by Alexis Henderson where she deals with sort of like this issue of like religious texts and religion, but in a fantasy world. Um, and I think that world building is super interesting as well.

Speaker 2: 32:46

I will have to check it out. It's good to kind of switch directions a little bit. I saw that you are also in the process of editing an anthology.

Speaker 3: 32:59

I am,

Speaker 2: 33:02

Which is exciting. I also am in the process of editing my first anthology, uh, so kind of a new experiment. And so I got really excited when I saw that you were working on one as well. Do you want to talk a little bit about it? Yeah. So

Speaker 3: 33:17

It, the title might change, um, because we're in the early, early stages, um, it's called the gathering dark. It is an anthology of full core. I do acknowledge that a shadow and bone was originally called the gathering dark, but there is no association, but I, so yeah. So the idea is kind of based on like the scariest stories that you heard growing up or from your area that were passed down to you. I want the authors involved to take those and write something based off of it. So I'm writing a story, um, based on a, like murder in the 18 hundreds in my hometown of beaver falls, Pennsylvania. So it's not going to be widely known and that's kind of the idea that I want everyone to play with. It's like hometown scary.

Speaker 2: 34:06

Oh, how fascinating. Yeah. I'm so

Speaker 3: 34:09

Excited. I'm more excited to see everyone else's stories. Really. Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2: 34:16

No, I know when, when in doing mine, um, which is like a total opposite, ours is like a romantic comedy collection, um, be more different, but when this story started coming in, oh, it was just like candy for me. Like, oh, this is so much fun to read.

Speaker 3: 34:33

I'm going to get the first of them, like literally next week. Exciting, so excited. And I, um, I have a, like, my editor is amazing for this as well. And she's like the queen of spooks. So I cannot wait, um, to work on this and bring it into the world. I think it's going to, basically what we pitched us was kind of like scary stories to tell them the dark with like contemporary spin. Um, so I'm really excited. It's just so much work.

Speaker 2: 35:07

His work, everything we do is just making more work for ourselves, but it's also fun. It's so

Speaker 3: 35:13

Rewarding. And I know when it's done, I'm going to be like, wow, this is the best thing ever.

Speaker 2: 35:17

Yeah. Well, I can't wait. I'm super excited about the premise. Um, and I saw you just reading through your list of authors. There are some that I really love on there. So I'm so excited

Speaker 3: 35:31

For you. I love romcoms. That's been like my main form of escape.

Speaker 2: 35:36

They are perfect escape. I feel like that's, that's what they're there for. They're so good. Um, so one last question before we get into our lightning round, um, I want to talk just quickly about your education cause you, I know I myself have a bachelor's in creative writing. I know lots of writers who have master's in creative writing or English. I don't know if I know anybody with a PhD. You were saying all this. And I was like, wow, do I really pretentious? Ambitious, I guess keeps coming up. Um, no, but it's, I'm really curious. Like, so you have gone above and beyond what so many writers do, and I want to know how that has impacted your writing on like a craft level, but also has it impacted career goals and I don't know, I'm just curious about it. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:33

I mean, I want to, I want to teach at like the collegiate level. Um, and I could do that with an MFA, but I think to be quite honest, I just want to be a doctor. I just want to be Dr. Bellino. My mom is doctor[inaudible]. I'm going to be Dr. Bellino Jr. Um, it will be amazing.

Speaker 2: 36:54

I love that. That is a totally legit reason so much school, but, um,

Speaker 3: 37:01

It has impacted my writing. So I specifically do more of like creative and critical. And so for my PhD that I'm doing now, um, the critical is meant to inform the creative, so that could be in a historical basis or whatever. So what I'm kind of focusing on is back on the Tolstoy train, um, how Russian literature and Russian folklore is influencing the recent trend of young adult fantasy with Russian influence. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So it's kind of like a history of that. And then, um, looking into some sort of specific examples, but then I'm also kind of writing my own version and the biggest thing about it, that's kind of forced me to think a little bit harder besides, you know, all of the PhD stuff is it's really slowing me down in a way that I don't allow myself to do. Um, and I think that, so basically I've been writing seriously for a while now, but it's basically just been, how fast can I write a draft? Okay. How fast can I edit that draft? And then can I do it faster? And this it's forcing me to kind of do, you know, like a chapter every week as opposed to what you're four. Um, so I always say I'm a bad first drafter, but I think that might just be resolved if I don't give myself time to write a good first draft. So it's kind of changing my process in that I could be a better first drafter if I actually give myself time to write a first draft.

Speaker 2: 38:42

That's interesting. I am also, I write very quick, but very sloppy first drafts. Um, and there are definitely times when I think like maybe I should sit down and really think about this more before just plowing ahead, but it, like, it feels so against what I've always done that I feel like it would, it would really be a struggle for me to force myself to do that.

Speaker 3: 39:08

And it feels like I'm going to get stuck somewhere.

Speaker 2: 39:11

Um, yeah. Or like I would worry that I would like lose that creative energy.

Speaker 3: 39:17

Yes, yes, absolutely. Or just get tired of it. Um, so that is my fear as we loom over the edge of finishing my PhD, but I don't want to just like finish it half a manuscript and sticking it in a drawer. So I think it's helping me to kind of negotiate my process in what makes me a better writer versus when do I write best? I think those are two very different things. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:48

No, that's interesting. I mean, I think it's really good for writers to experiment a little bit with their process from time to time. You never know what you'll learn. Yeah, exactly. All right. On that note, are you ready for our bonus round? I am tea or coffee, tea plotter, or pantser

Speaker 3: 40:12

A plotter

Speaker 2: 40:14

Music or silence music writing in the morning or writing at night, a trip to a sunny beach or the snowy mountains.

Speaker 3: 40:24

I'm currently at the beach. So the beach,

Speaker 2: 40:28

Maybe you don't want to be there and you'd rather be at the mountains, the beach. What is your favorite writing snack?

Speaker 3: 40:36

Um, crispy m&ms.

Speaker 2: 40:38

Ooh, good one. If the devil makes three, had a theme song, what would it be?

Speaker 3: 40:44

It would be the cover of cancer originally by my chemical romance covered by 21 pilots.

Speaker 2: 40:51

Wow. You had that like right away. Clearly this is not an off the cuff thing. It's like

Speaker 3: 40:59

The song that I associate with the first draft. Truly. I don't know why,

Speaker 2: 41:06

What book makes you happy?

Speaker 3: 41:09

Oh, um, um, I have no idea. Oh, fire by Kristin Kishore.

Speaker 2: 41:18

Oh, good one. I love that whole series so much. Okay. What is your personal mantra? Um,

Speaker 3: 41:29

Every thought I've ever had has just fled from my brain. I think, I think my personal mantra is when you're going through the worst thing, it has to end at some point. And I feel like that sounds like quite bleak, but it's, it's basically like if I'm having a struggle, writing a draft, then I know at some point I will be closing the word document, you know? Like nothing is eternal.

Speaker 2: 41:59

Yeah. No, it's a, this too shall pass sort of thing. Yes. That's a better way of putting it. Yeah. No. And I use that one frequently myself when, when things are not going, how I want them to this too shall pass.

Speaker 3: 42:13

Yeah. My mom used to say that with like, you can do anything for two years and then, you know, move on.

Speaker 2: 42:20

Yeah, yeah. Or like 30 seconds if you're talking about like running sprints or something. Oh yeah. I'm not running for two years. It's all. It's all relative.

Speaker 3: 42:30

What are you working on next? Um, I am working on hopefully copy edits for my second book. It's called not good for maidens. And it is a contemporary retelling of Christina. Rosetta is goblin market set in York, England.

Speaker 2: 42:48

Ooh, that sounds good. Is that coming out next year?

Speaker 3: 42:51

It is. It's I think it's may 20, 22, but it's definitely spring 20, 22, somewhere in that.

Speaker 2: 43:00

Lastly, where can people find you?

Speaker 3: 43:04

Um, so I am on Twitter at Tori both, and then I'm on Instagram at[inaudible] because I like to make things complicated. I'm also on Tik. TOK is talking about well, you know, but I don't really use it. So that's

Speaker 2: 43:17

My I've had a lot of conversations with my publisher lately about marketing is we're getting ready to, you know, enter into promo season for the next book. And I guess, and like Tik TOK is like the thing. And they're like, we need you to make Tik TOK videos and dah, dah, dah. And I'm like, I will not be on tick-tock. I re I cannot take on any more social media. I feel

Speaker 3: 43:40

You're rapidly between like, I want to make like really high quality, great Tik TOK videos. And between like, I went to make the messiest weirdest thing ever branding can work with both. I'm quirky enough to be quirky, but not on the internet. And then I'm like somber enough to be somber, but not on the internet.

Speaker 2: 44:07

Yeah. It's hard. Awesome. That is all that I have today. Tori, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much. This has been a lot of fun readers. Definitely check out the devil makes three. It comes out tomorrow. Of course, we always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop dot slash shop slash Marissa Meyer. Next week, I'll be talking to Margo wood about her debut novel, fresh, which is a super hilarious retelling of Jane Austen's. Emma. I loved it. I can't wait. I hope that you will give it a listen. Be sure to subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.

Speaker 1: 45:09

[inaudible].