Elevator Pitches and Playing with Comedic Narration Techniques with Margot Wood - Fresh

Marissa chats with Margot Wood about her debut contemporary novel - FRESH - as well as using unusual narration techniques to break down the fourth wall between narrator and reader, to absolutely hilarious effect; trusting your instincts and ignoring the naysayers, even when/especially when you're writing something very different from the current market; how a book's design and typography can make for an immersive reading experience; the #1 marketing tool for writers, according to the founder of Epic Reads (spoiler: it's your elevator pitch!); and on that note - thinking of your book like a wedding in order to determine its most memorable elements and distill them into an awesome hook.

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Transcript

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Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I'm your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. One thing, that's making me happy this week, and if you are a frequent listener, you might've noticed, but for the most part, I try to avoid using like super materialistic things because stuff is stuff, whatever. Right? However, this week I am proud to announce that my husband and I are now the owners of honest to goodness patio furniture. And I am so happy about this. It's not hand me downs. It's not some cheap, like rusting broken down stuff. We bought off Craigslist for once it's quality. And I feel so adult looking out at our patio right now, and I cannot wait to cuddle up at our fancy furniture and get some writing done. And it just brings me like a really unwholesome amount of joy looking outside my window right now. So yay. Hashtag adulting. We're getting this. And of course I am so happy to be talking to today's guest. She's worked in publishing for more than a decade. She was the founder of epic reads. Yes. That epic reads. And she even started as an extra. And the fabulous movie love Simon, her debut novel fresh just came out earlier this month. Please. Welcome Margo wood. Hi, welcome. Thank you so much for having me. This is my very first podcast. Sorry. Excited. Oh, I am honored. Welcome to the show. How exciting. Thank you so much for having me. And I'm extremely jealous of your patio furniture, because I was just complaining about my lack of patio furniture the other day. It is funny. It is one of those like weird milestone things that you don't really think about, but it's like, yeah, we've got life. Figure it out now that we have patio furniture, but it's also one of those weird adult things that people don't realize is ridiculously expensive. Oh my gosh. It was not no medium. There's no like mid, mid range patio furniture out there. It's cheap or super expensive. Yeah, no, there was truly some big sticker shock happening when we were out there shopping. Um, and I'd say we splurged more than we intended to, but I'm also hoping that we will never have to buy it again. Like this is it. This is what's going to last the rest of our lives. Whether or not that's naive. I don't know. That's amazing. Um, I am so excited to talk about your book fresh. Why don't you start by telling listeners, what is it about fresh is a very messy, chaotic, loose retelling of Emma by Jane Austin set at Emerson college, which is where I went to school. Um, it is a comedy first and foremost, you know, a lot of people are like it's around romcom. And I'm like, actually I would say it's more of a comedy than a romance though. There is romance and sex in there. It is a comedy first. Um, and I had so much fun writing it. I can't imagine how you could not have fun writing this book. It's an absolute hysterical romp. I, I had so much fun. I was smiling and laughing the entire time I was reading it. Um, yeah, pure joy. You guys pure people. Oh, thank you. Honestly, that's really what I was aiming for with this. Cause you know, it was my first attempt at writing a novel like ever. And I wanted, you know, I was having a good time writing it and I knew that if I wasn't having fun writing it, then nobody would have fun reading it. And I was just cackling to myself. Like almost the entire time I wrote this thing. So I'm glad to hear that other people find it funny too. No, absolutely. And let's just go ahead and start there on the comedy level because it is truly so funny. Um, just joke after joke, but not in like a campy like pun way. Like it's just funny and I, I'm curious, you know, it's a first person narration we're in the main character. Elliot's head. How much of the humor is you and how much is Elliot? That's a very tough question to answer because the answer is yes. Um, the humor is definitely stems from my own sense of humor, for sure. Because you know, everybody has their own style of humor and you can't really fake, you're fake a level of humor. Like you either have a sense of humor or you don't. Um, so it definitely started at that place. Um, and the one thing about Elliot that does make her very different from me is that she's just perpetually upbeat. Like it doesn't really matter if things are bad, she's always like, it's okay. I'll figure it out. You know? Um, whereas I feel like me with age, I've gotten very much like, you know, over time. So I did have to like tap back into that sort of, um, you know, college where you aren't really weighed down by the realities of the world yet. Um, sense of, you know, way of thinking. And in order for me to get into that head space, I drink a lot of monster energy drink, like every time, great Elliot, it was like monster energy, upbeat EDM song. And I was like, go, go, go. Um, but yeah, I would say that Elliot's sense of humor definitely stands stems from my own, although she does like puns more than I do. Yeah, no, I I'm glad you said because it does have this very optimistic vibe throughout the whole book kind of, no matter how bad things get, like she just bounces back so quickly, but you also get that from, you know, Emma, you know, the inspiration Emma, by Jane Austin, her character, more muted, you know, more Victorian era. Um, but her too, like she just kind of everything just brushes right off so easily. Um, and so I thought it was great to see the elements of Emma's personality coming forward in super 21st century Elliot. Yeah. The thing about Emma and Elliot is that they just have so much confidence for no reason. Like they just are confident people at their core and they use their competence to sort of like get through life. It's sort of like their survival mode. Um, so when they do mess up and they do fail, they're just competent that they will figure it out. And that does it. That is what leads to so many more mistakes, um, down the road for both Emma and Elliot. Uh, but that's what I really loved about Emma. It wasn't really like the story or anything like that. It was, it was Emma. I love her. She was the first character I ever read where I was like, Hmm. I actually see some of myself in her, you know, somebody who's just kind of like nosy and other people's business. Um, and super funny and just like, so cocky, just like cocky as hell. And I was like, yes, I really like, it just relate to this really hard. Yeah. Um, so on that we were kind of talking before we started recording. Um, I was, as I was waiting for the podcast to start thinking about Jane Austin novels and like, oh, where would Emma fall on my, my list of favorite J not, you know, favorite to least. Um, and I ultimately decided that for me, it would be number one, pride and prejudice, number two, persuasion, number three, Emma, um, which so top three out of six, you know? Um, and then I was thinking, but you know what, one of my all time favorite movies is clueless. Yes. Also an Emma retelling. And so it's like, well, there's like a lot of Emma Love happening right there. And it's, for me, it's fun to think about how clueless was kind of like updating Emma for us, nineties kids. And now I feel like your book is going to make a huge splash and it's going to be the Emma for this next generation. God, I hope, yeah. I was thinking about it because I grew up on clueless. Um, as I'm sure you did too. And it was such a pivotal film for me growing up, um, everything, I don't know everything about that movie just really clicked and it really stuck with me more so than any other teen comedy at the time. And I didn't necessarily set out to write an Emma retelling when I started writing fresh, I had the character of Elliot and her friends and the Emerson college setting. And I knew I wanted to tackle like the, you know, the freshman year experience. And I knew I had this sense of humor all set to go, but I didn't, Emma didn't really come into play until later when I realized that like I had all these elements, but I didn't know what to do with them. And then I, re-read a bunch of my old favorites. Cause that's a writing trick that I have where if I'm stuck on something, I'll just start reading stuff that I know that I loved and it almost always works. It almost always, it always inspires me, um, to be a better writer. And so I went back and I re-read Emma for the first time in a long time. And it was also right around the time that, that, um, that Emma movie, the new one with on a, on a Taylor joy came out. And so I read Emma and then I watched the movie and then I went back and rewatch clueless. And I was like, oh my God, like, I can't believe I didn't notice this before. But all of the elements that I had were like the building blocks of Emma. And the second I realized that I had already kind of laid the groundwork for an Emma retelling. It was so fast after that. And I cranked out the first full draft within three months and it was sold two months after that. So it was so, so quick. And I think it's just that like Emma really resonates with young women. And I think what was missing from the coolest, although there was a character that was, um, he was gay and clueless, you know, that wasn't really the theme of clueless. And I really wanted to explore that theme in fresh, but not have it be like such a thing that, you know, like she just is bisexual and her friends are and she goes to a school and it just sort of was this background layer to it that I thought was felt natural for an Emma retelling because that's what coolest does. And that's what Emma does. They, you know, they talk about these themes and explore those themes without actually really being heavy handed with it. And I think that's what makes them so brilliant. Yeah. No. And the same with your book, I mean, the way that you're able to take some themes of, of, you know, sex and sexuality and intimacy and, uh, you know, all these various things, but do it in such a light hearted way. I mean, it's really special. Um, and I can say, honestly, I don't think I've ever read a book like before it was, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. That is the coolest story for writing a retelling. I am blown away by the idea that you were neck deep in it already and then like got the inspiration for it to become an Emma retelling because I never would have guessed. It felt so natural. Oh, thank you. Um, I have no writing experience. I did not go to college for writing. I went to college for marketing. Um, so the last time I took a writing class was high school and I got a straight up D so I wasn't pulling any, you know, when I went out, set out to write this thing, I had no idea what I was doing. And I did. I was like a high school theater kid. And I went to Emerson, which is like a feeder school. So I drew on my like theater experience for this. So all I had was a cast of characters and then a bunch of scenes that I thought were really funny and, you know, like that setting, but there was nothing connecting it. Um, and I still struggled, like, you know, as I try to think about like, what else am I going to write next? I'm like, I don't know, because I don't think in terms of plot or what I'm overall gonna say, think in terms of scenes that I think would be really fun to write. And that's sort of how this whole book came together. It was just a collection of things that I thought were really funny and fun to write. And then the Emma framework came in and just really pulled it all together. Um, and it made it, that's such a cool story because I love hearing from writers who came to it later because I think a lot of people hear writers like me talk about how, oh, I knew that I wanted to be this since I was a kid. Like I grew up wanting to be a writer and a lot of people just assume like, oh, well, if that wasn't me, then maybe it's not meant to be, but I have met so many writers who like it wasn't in their heads and hearts growing up or through teen years or whatever, it, it came later. Um, and I just think it's a really great reminder that there's all different paths and journeys. There's no one right way to get here. Yeah. Way. I would say my own life reflects Elliot's in that I didn't even read books until I was 25. Like I wasn't a reader until much later in life. Yeah. Epic reads. Um, I grew up, um, I'm ADHD and I also was dyslexic reading, uh, growing up and reading my God. I hope my parents don't listen to us or my mom doesn't listen to us. But, uh, I grew up in a household where reading was kind of like a punishment, uh, you know, where it was like go inside and read if I was ever in trouble or go to your room and read. And so for me, reading was seen as like this, the parents, not the strategy, it was not any, you know, I think a lot of the books that they get kids reading when they're, you know, in middle school and stuff are not the right books for most children. I think kids need to develop confidence in reading. And I never developed that. So I, when I was in school, I didn't really in high school. My Clem fan was, I didn't actually read any of the books that I was assigned in high school. Um, I would just spark notes, everything for every test to get by. Um, and I didn't, I didn't know that I could reader, so I didn't try to be a reader until I was older. And it's actually only because of coincidence that I even got into reading in the first place. And I just moved to New York and I, um, got the studio apartment in the east village in a scheduled them to put in wifi into the apartment, but they were like, we can't be there for two weeks. So for two weeks I had no internet and I had nothing to do. And I was working at this tech startup where I was a designer and, um, and a community manager. And one of the communities that they had just given me to manage was this site called random buzzers, which was at the time random houses, young adult book community. And I was just supposed to sort of like make sure that the site was running properly. I wasn't supposed to really like, do all that much for it. Um, but everybody was talking about this one book on this community, on the forums and it was called the hunger games. Everybody was reading it. And I was like, you know what? I don't have internet for two weeks. Like maybe I'll try to read a book. And so I got the hunger games and literally that was like, by the life-changing moment was reading the hunger games of being like, oh, young adult fiction exists. This is a thing, right? Where has this been? My whole life, like, it was easy to get into and fun and entertaining. And I devoured like every single Yia book that came out that year. And I just became an absolute devoted to young adult fiction and it changed my life. And, and then I was like, you know what? I want to do this full-time I want to work in, I want to work in publishing. I want to work with these books, but I also mostly want to work with this community because the community of young adult fans is like, you know, it is one of the best communities in the world, and this is coming from somebody who's worked in multiple video game communities and food communities. Like I've professionally worked with a lot of different types of communities. And I always come back to why, because they just, even though we've got our problems, like I would much rather deal with the white community. It problems in other communities, like the problems of other communities are so much worse. Hi, fans are the best, you know, and I just, I was just relentless about it. And, um, Harper was starting up their own rival community to random buzzers. And they called me up because they know that I was running the random house one. And they were like, do you want to come work full time in house, on this one community? And it from scratch. And I was like, oh, hell yeah. And that was when epic reads was born. So I started up at grades about, only about a year after I even discovered why books existed. That's incredible. And I went and checked, um, before, when I was kind of looking you up and getting ready for this interview. And it is now the epic reads Instagram account is currently at 740,000 followers. Like it's huge. Yeah. I left in 2017 and I left it in some really capable hands and they did some wonderful things with it. But those five years when I was living and breathing epic raids, that was my whole life. And it was the best job I've ever had and probably will ever have. Now being a writer is also pretty, oh my God, being a writer so much more fun, but I was writing epic reads was, it was one of the most rewarding five years of my entire life. So. Okay. So you, you discover the hunger games, you discover why a fiction, you go into the world of publishing and marketing. At what point does the idea into your head that maybe I could write a book, you know, to do this live video series on Epocrates called tea time. And I remember one tea time, like live, somebody asked in the comment section, they were like, are you ever going to be a writer? And I remember exact like this moment, it's still on a video up where on YouTube, somewhere where I was like, no, I'll never be a writer. I'm a reader. And then of course, the second I started saying I was only ever going to be a reader. Did the idea that, oh, maybe I could write a book too. Um, I don't know that there was ever really a concrete moment where I just started to write things. I know that with, with fresh, it was actually the very first time I ever tried writing fiction. I was just sort of sitting around in my apartment one day and this voice was in my head and I hadn't read any books that were set in the freshman year of college that were like just funny and silly and absurd and all over this place and messy and just really reflected what your freshman year, um, away from home is like and how crazy that year can be. And I just started writing down some stuff. And I remember I had pitched it to, I was just like talking to an agent friend of mine. Cause I made a lot of friends who were agents through my work at epic grades. And he told me this was in 2014. And he told me that no publisher would ever publish a book about girls and sex. Who do you want to have good sex? And that derail me, like I literally was like, oh, okay, well I, for some reason stupidly trusted his opinion. I'm no longer he's, we'll just say that he's no longer in my life or very much in the white community. Um, people probably put it together based on that alone. But, uh, but I, it really did derail me because I just was like, oh, well, that's actually fairly true since I've never, you know, I haven't heard of any books that are published that are like this before. So, you know, he actually has a point here, so I set it aside and I never really thought about it again. Um, until I want to say 27, 16, around 2016, I was on a flight to yall west and I was flying home from y'all west. And I had just finished a book and I didn't, I made the mistake of not bringing multiple books with me on the plane. Um, and I had nothing else to read. And so I pulled up my phone and I just pulled up my Google drive and I was like, what's in Google drive, like, who knows? And I found like the, you know, the bits and pieces that I had written back in 2014. And I found myself just sitting there reading through everything I'd written like completely forgetting where I was, what I was doing, completely forgetting that I even wrote what I was reading. And I was just thought it was the funniest thing I had read in so long. And when I landed, I was like, all right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna see if there's something here with this. And that's when I just started to give it a bit more effort. So yeah, that's so awesome. And I also had experiences where like, hearing like, oh, that story idea won't work or, oh, nobody would be interested in that. And there was a few novels that I shelved early, like before cinder, um, that I always look back and think, I think they were wrong. I think I could've made it work. And it's so disheartening to think how many great books may have been buried because of naysayers. Would it be now is a lot of bad advice floating around, you know, um, I think authors need to trust their instincts more than they probably do at least debut authors who are thinking about, maybe do I want to write this thing? Or I, you know, when I actually did, when I was too far down the road in fresh to really stop at that point to go back, I knew I was making a choice with this book. And I knew I was making a choice that was going to be a little bit different than what publishing was used to, you know, publishing doesn't have a new adult category yet. They don't really know where to shelve college set stories, especially ones that are explicit, but not erotic. Um, because push is fresh, it is explicit, but it is not erotic. Um, which is what a lot of people consider when they think of new adult. They think, oh, it's just like erotica for a younger crowd or a younger audience. And I was like, I don't really necessarily want to write erotica, but I do want to write something that is honest and, you know, an explicit because life is explicit might've been in. Um, and so I knew consciously going into it that there were going to be hurdles, uh, you know, and that came about, especially during the process. No, a lot of people, I have a lot of connections with editors and that certainly opened doors for me, um, to deny that would be, you know, misleading, I think. Um, so having had, you know, the epic reads pedigree really helped a lot, but what happened was a lot of editors were afraid. They were so afraid of fresh and they were like, well, can you set it in high school? And I was like, no. And they were like, oh, can you make it straight and not gay? And I was like, definitely not. Um, you know, there was a lot of, a lot of them were like, oh, can you focus on the parents? And I was like, oh no. So there was a lot, they just, from an editorial perspective, it was an interesting experience because, you know, I work in the marketing side of publishing, not the editorial side. So this was sort of my very first foray into that area. And it was really interesting to see and hear this feedback from them. That really just sounded like fear to me. Cause it was, it was different. It wasn't a little, you know, I don't want to be like, oh, I'm not like other girls, but, um, I was trying to be a little bit different with this book to try to push things, you know, push the boundaries just a little bit just because I figured, you know, Hey, if people know the no epic reads, maybe they'll trust me a little bit more and maybe I will be able to get this book published and open doors for more stories like this. Um, and so it was a really interesting experience to hear a lot of editors who were like, this sounds great, but change like everything about it. Yeah, no, I mean, it is. I mean, like I mentioned, it is so different and I'm a number of different levels and, and we'll go to the craft and writing level it's really unique to, and we'll come to that back to that. Um, but yeah, I mean just how open-minded it is, it's an anti shaming book. It's very sex positive takes a very, just kind of blunt open look at, you know, what the college experience is for many people or, but it's not even, I mean, you're looking at so many different characters and what does it mean to this person and what does sex mean to this person? What does intimacy mean here? And it's a lot to take in, but I ultimately found it super empowering. Um, and I love it. I hope that there is more coming. Like I hope that people are like, okay, the door is open. Maybe publishers can figure out what to do with this. And we'll start to see more of this. Cause I find it really refreshing at the same time and reading it. I'm like, but we know this is going to get, unlike every band book list that there's going to be a lot of people who are not ready for this, the first reviews that were coming in on Nick alley, um, were so funny because you know, I look at all these things because I'm so used to looking at that stuff professionally. And I think I'm actually pretty good at divorcing, you know, being objective about even my own work. Um, but the first reviews that were coming in were for like middle grade teachers. Oh gosh, they were like, I cannot order this for my middle school classroom. And I was like, well, no, you are not the target audience. You're going to put me on some bad lists. Aren't you? Just because I didn't read a middle school book. I was like, sweet. I would wear that with a, you know, like a badge of honor. If I got on some band reading lists, God, I hope that would be so cool. Awesome. Oh, it's gotta be coming. Yeah. You can't avoid it. I don't think with, with just the, the topic that you're dealing with here. Um, but I like it, you point out like, even though, um, you know, there's a lot of different sexual encounters talked about in the book. It is not a gratuitous book by any means. Like, like you say, you're not writing erotica. Yeah. I made a very conscious choice to be explicit about sex, but not be erotic about sex. And you'll notice that like most of the romantic scenes, if they actually are romantic, they're not even that explicit. Like they're, they're kind of more like I'm not going to, you know, she doesn't really go into a lot of detail about those. She's usually like, those are like the fade to black scenes, whereas the more hilarious sexual encounters, those are the ones that are a bit more explicit. And I made that choice like very, very specifically, because to kind of also reflect the difference between, um, you know, romance and sex, because those two things are extremely different. Um, and that's, and I wanted to showcase those scenes in a different way. So there, the tone of each of those sex scenes is very, very different depending on like the goal of them. Yeah. Did you, in writing and revising, like how much was that drawing that line just natural as per the story and kind of the decisions you were making for how you wanted to tell this story? Or did you have to like go back later and think, oh, we went a little too far here or, oh, I need to fill this out a little bit more actually I would say it was pretty natural. There was no, there was no point where my editor was like, this needs to be toned down at no point was that ever mentioned. And I'm really, really grateful for my editor who just, she got it, like from the very, very beginning, the one aspect that she did have me, you know, build out a little bit more, was slow building the romance a little bit, um, more and filling that out more, uh, because my default is comedy at Elliot's default is comedy and whenever things get serious, she just immediately wants to make a joke. And so it, when the story did get a little more serious, especially with the romantic scenes, you know, I had to, because my head was so much into Elliot's head, I literally had to be like Elliot, slow down, slow down and be serious in this moment. Um, and so I did have, that was actually kind of really hard for me to do. Just I was so much in her head in her head is, you know, really quite the default. So I actually think that those moments where she does slow down because it's, those are rare and when she does slow down and she is serious that's, um, those are actually kind of like my favorite moments in addition to all the funny ones. And I mean, it shows a lot of growth in her character too. I mean, a lot of her character arc is her figuring out these more serious sides of, of romance and intimacy and kind of figuring out who she is and how she really feels about this. Yeah. And that sort of, you know, I wanted to really explore that too. Cause, um, I think a lot of why a deals with firsts, you know, coming of age is theoretically when you're experiencing first. And so with fresh, there are a lot of firsts that she experiences that aren't really coming of age things. It's more of like how to be independent and away from your family for the first time and take care of yourself for the first time. But what I really also wanted to explore was some seconds. So like what happens if you've already had sex for the first time or you've been in love for the first time? Um, what comes after that? And that's what I was sort of missing a lot in Y a was, you know, a lot of these characters are doing all these things for the first time and then it's sort of the book ends, but I wanted to pick up where that story would end and explore that further. So a lot of Elliot's backstory is alluded to, with some drama that she was involved in, but also that she, you know, slept her on people. So we're assuming at this point when the book starts at she's already come out, she's already had sex. She's already had her heart broken at least once. So what comes after that? And that was what I thought would be a lot of fun to write about. Um, I want to backtrack a little bit because you were talking about being an Elliot's head. Um, and I love being in Elliot's head Elliott cracks me up. I want to be best friends with Elliot, me too. Um, but it also leads to just some really fascinating and unusual narration techniques yeah. In this book. Um, and they're brilliant and you're totally going to start a new trend because I, for one, want to steal everything that you did. So first of all, footnotes, the idea to include footnotes of all things it's so scholarly. Okay. So, so before I discovered the hunger games in Yia, there were two books that I loved, um, before I turned 25 in red wine. And one of those books is called beat the Reaper by Josh Bazell, it's an adult novel. And he used footnotes throughout it as a way to break the fourth wall and to add comedy to the story. And that book has stuck with me ever since, because of those footnotes. And whenever I went out, when I initially started writing fresh, like the very beginning before I even knew what the hell I was doing, I knew that I wanted to use footnotes because they are such an amazing vehicle for comedy. And it is, I would say the literary form of breaking the fourth wall, which has done, I like, I love movies like Deadpool that were, you know, Deadpool breaks character or breaks the fourth wall. And he dresses addresses the audience directly. I love that gimmick in movies and in television, you know, scrubs did that a lot. Deadpool does that. Um, and that, that new movie in NOLA homes does that. Um, so I that's like one of my favorite devices in film and television. So I wanted to do that as much as possible in a literary format. So a lot of it was playing around with, uh, footnotes, but also, uh, making use of the fact that this book, we thought a fresh, I'm going to go, I'm sorry, it's gonna sound like I'm sort of, kind of jumping around here, but I really think of the book as book, as an object. And I, this is sort of the marketing brain rent, thinking of the experience of the reader holding this book. And what is that experience like from the font to where the placement of the text and all of that stuff? So the, yeah, there are 90 footnotes. Um, I love the footnotes. Um, there were more, I had to cut back a lot of the footnotes, but like all the bulleted lists and even using font changes to emphasize Elliot's thought process, um, and all of the other elements that are going on in the story, like I wanted it to be like a full physical, immersive experience. And that was sort of my way of doing that. Oh my gosh, I love it. I was also going to bring up breaking the fourth wall because I love when Elliot addresses the reader. Um, and one of my favorite thing is occasionally there's like a tiny little choose your own adventure element. What do you think I should do here? And holiday? It was so funny. And at the same time, like I can see how it could read as gimmicky, but because Elliot's character just comes off the page as so loud and, and vibrant and optimistic and all of the things like it just works. It's so her it's like, um, maximalism, you know, where it's like, if you've gotten minimalism as your style, anything in between minimalism and maximalism might seem sort of just messy, but once you get so messy where it looks like controlled chaos, then it becomes maximalism. Like that's who Elliot is. She is controlled chaos. So like if I had only had one of those choose your own adventures, it would have felt like a gimmick. It would have just been a one-off thing. So I was like, I have to have more than one of these things and the footnotes can't just be sparse and random. They have to be constant. And throughout the story, um, and Elliot is actually she's ADHD like myself and the footnotes were, I don't know whether this was conscious or not, but it definitely occurred to me after I sold the book in, uh, because my editor was asking me about the footnotes and I was like, you know what? The footnotes are actually a visual representation of what it's like to be ADHD. Um, because you are in the middle of a thought and then your brain jumps to one thing. And then you have to find your way back to that original thought again. And that's what the footnotes are like essentially, um, on the page where she's just kind of all over the place. And I know that a lot of readers don't necessarily like the footnotes because they feel like it's so chaotic. Um, but to me, that is who Elliot is. She is chaotic. She is just a constant stream of jokes and thoughts and random things and games and blonde. She's very extroverted. And so all of that is sort of like her a visual representation of who she is. Yeah. I love it. I loved the footnotes. And like I said, I totally want to steal it someday when I have a character that can stand up to Elliot, then I love the footnotes. Honestly, like I was thinking about, if I write another story, even if it has nothing to do with fresh, I was like, I just cannot just be my thing. I love the fun thing, but Margo wouldn't brand. Right. Um, okay. You talked a little bit about your marketing brain. Um, let's go there for a second because I know you worked, obviously we talked about epic raids. You were in publishing for more than a decade. I think I saw yes. Lynn publishing. I still have a day job. I wasn't sure if that was ongoing. I'm the director of sales and marketing at Oni press, which is an independent comics book, comic book publisher in Portland, Oregon. Awesome. Oh, that's right. I did see that you lived in Portland. Hi neighbor. Oh, into coma. Oh my gosh. Um, so having all this experience in book marketing, what would you advise for writers? Like if you could just give like your top tip or your top three tips, what should writers be thinking about whether pre or post-publication to help market themselves? What would you suggest? Pre-publication number one thing you have to be able to, this is funny, cause I'm not very good at this myself, but you have to be able to sell your book in one pitch, one sentence it's called the elevator pitch. Sometimes you'll hear the word keynote. Um, you have to be able to succinctly sell your book in one sentence or less. Um, some books are really good at doing this just by the title alone. Like Dorothy must die. In fact, cinder is an extremely good example that I used often in many presentations when I was working at Harper on, on best practices of how to write keynotes is Cinderella, cyborg. Like I gave you two words and you instantly know what this is and what you're getting, and you could sell. It's so easy to sell your book just off those two words. Um, and you know, unfortunately, like I think a lot of writers, they are not necessarily salesy we're marketing and that doesn't come naturally to them. So one of the tips I always, this weird layout helps is imagine you are Stefan from SNL and you are, you know, Seth Myers has asked you to like, describe your book. And you're like, here's what it's about. It's got this and that and this thing and that other thing, um, you know, just trying to figure out ways to, like, how would you describe your book to a sixth grader? How would you describe your book if, you know, there's all these like tricks that you can do with on, you know, on the marketing level. But I think being able to get, distill your story down to one sentence or two is really, really helpful in, especially when you're trying to get an agent. And then when you get an agent trying to go on submission and sell it to a publisher, and then after you get it published or during them, before it gets published and you do interviews and podcasts and Saudis are going to ask you to tell us what your book is about. It's so important to have that line down because it can help you in so many different aspects of the marketing. Um, so that is extremely like the, the number one thing is being able to sell your own book, um, to verbalize that because I've had, I've worked with a lot of writers where I'm like, describe your book and you know, we're 20 minutes in and I've definitely stopped paying attention. Um, and you know, what the readers are going to stop paying attention to, unless they're librarians, Nuno, they're the only audience that I've ever met, where they just, you could go on a 15 minute spiel and they're right there with you. Um, um, but yeah, being able to get that, that keynote or that elevator pitch down is really, really important. Yeah, no, I agree. And it is funny how some writers can kind of Excel at that. Um, and just like have a brain for distilling the story down to these little nuggets. Um, but I, I think that's few and far between, I think more often than not, we see our books as these big unwieldy things, and we've got all the characters in our head and all the subplots in our head and trying to summarize that, like we get caught up in trying to tell too much. Um, but, but being able to give that quick little, here's why you should read it, here's the exciting part. Um, and move on. It's a, it's a powerful thing and it's hard to do. I actually always think about it in terms of weddings. Um, like think about the last wedding that you went to. What do you actually remember about it? It's probably the location. Maybe the bride's dress, maybe the K oh, there you go. There you go. Everybody's got that, that handful of things. Or maybe it's just one or two things that they remember from that wedding, but what, they don't remember all those details about the wedding, like, what are the, what did the flowers look like? What was the table setting? Like, what was, how were there, you know, what were the speeches, where was it located? What did the bathroom, you know, all of those details that the bride and the groom think about where the bride and the bride or the groom, the groom, um, all those little details. Nobody remembers that stuff. All their members like, like you said, the cake or the setting, or one other random thing that they remember. Um, so when you are setting out to write that keynote or practice, writing that keynote, think about what is the one thing from your story that people will probably walk away with. Um, and what will they remember? What's gonna stand out to them because everything else, like, you know, all about the nuance and what you're trying to talk about and the themes and all this stuff. Now, what's the one thing people are gonna remember from this at first, they'll get to enjoy all that later, but first you got to get them to pick up the book. Totally. Yep, exactly. You could write the greatest book in the world, but if nobody reads it, then nobody will know that you've written the greatest book in the world. Yeah. Awesome. Excellent advice. Uh, I think it's time to wrap this up now with our happy writer bonus round. I don't know what that is. First question. What book makes you happy? Ooh. Okay. My, the first comedy book I ever read that I'm still obsessed with and I read all the time is lamb. The gospel, according to bef Christ's childhood Powell by Christopher Moore, it is Christ the last year. Is it? It is the funniest thing I have ever read in my life. And it is just pure joy. It's so good. He is so funny. I remember. Is it full? I think is the title, God, that one cracked me and like the littlest angel he's got, he has, Christopher has so many great comedy books. Um, but definitely check out lamb. It's so, so funny and also just an amazing sort of fantasy story. What is your personal mantra? Fake it till you make it good. One. I use that one a lot too. Yeah, it fresh had a theme song. What would it be? Probably thank you next. Oh yeah, just that montage. That one particular montage. That's, that's the song that I imagined playing during that scene. What is one small thing that brings you a lot of joy? So my dad passed away in 2015. He was very funny, dude. Um, and I didn't initially set out to write him into the story. Um, but my editor was like, you should, he needs to be more in the story. I was afraid to put him in there. So I worked through that sort of pain and, you know, in that first chapter and I was able to work in my actual dad's last words to me, uh, that he said before he died, but I worked them into the very first chapter, which as a reader, you'd probably pass over and you'd be like, oh, maybe that lines cheesy where you don't even notice it at all. But to me knowing that it's there and that his last words are going to be in the library of Congress for all the time. Um, God, he would have loved that. Uh, that brings me a lot of joy. How do you celebrate an accomplishment by buying things? This is the materialism episode. Um, I love perfume. I'm a huge perfume head. Um, so I usually reward myself with a new bottle of perfume. What are you working on next? Finding a way to write more and also have a daytime job? Um, because I still haven't quite figured out. I mean, I wrote fresh like, whew, I don't know if I ever want to do it that way again. Cause that was exhausting. Um, but no I'm, I don't actually know yet. Um, a good, a very wise friend told me, you know, with, she also has ADHD and I was struggling to be one of those writers that writes every day. I try to do that, but I just, it doesn't work with, I just can't do it. And so she told me she was like, I don't start new books until my old ones are done out published. Uh oh. And so I was like, you know what? That actually takes a huge weight off my shoulders. So I'm waiting as well. Fresh is out and it's out now. So theoretically I should be working on something. Um, you know, I'm fairly certain, it'll be something of comedy in nature. You know, I really enjoyed doing my take on contemporary romance and who knows, maybe I'll do some kind of galvanic style, my take on fantasy, nice, whatever it turns out to be, I will be waiting for it. Um, and for the record, I can't write every day either I tried and it just like drained all joy from the process for me, I'm just, I'm a binge writer, you know, like I can't just do little bit, I'm not good at just doing things a little bit at a time. It's either all or nothing. So we all have to find what works for us. Totally. Lastly, where can people find you? People can find me on Instagram at Margo M wood because I screwed up just the Margot would handle years ago and Instagram will give it back to me. No, I'm on Instagram. I'm also on Tik TOK at Margo wood and Twitter. I still do Twitter cause I, I love pain. Um, at Margo would go, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me. This has been an absolute blast and I, you know, I'm fingerling over here. I love all of your work so amazing. Oh thank you. And I'm so happy that you came on. I loved this book readers. I definitely hope you will go check out fresh. It is available. Now of course, we always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. Next week, I will be talking to none other than Victoria, avid yard. I know I'm so excited. I'm so jealous. We will be discussing her newest fantasy realm breaker. So definitely tune in for that. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.

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