A Surplus of Writing Craft Advice from YA Fantasy Superstar Victoria Aveyard - Realm Breaker

Marissa chats with Victoria Aveyard about her new fantasy novel - REALM BREAKER - as well as a surplus of juicy craft discussion! Topics include the three-act, eight-sequence structure for screenwriting and how it can be applied to novels and series; focusing on plot escalation over the course of multiple books, and using callbacks to show how far your characters have come; a friendlier way to think about the age-old plotter vs. pantser debate; some thoughts on long-term career planning and how to choose your next project; and using maps, real-world history, and "one unbelievable thing" to improve your world-building. Plus: Victoria suggests a simple yet brilliant tactic for developing fantasy names and languages.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 0:11

Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I'm your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. One thing that's been making me happy this week, as many of you know, I have been running a lot lately trying to train for the Disney world half marathon next year. Well, I have finally gotten to the point where I'm running some higher mileage, like six miles or more at a go, which means that I get to start quote unquote fueling during my runs because runners don't eat the fuel, uh, which is just a fancy way of saying that every few miles I get rewarded with a snack. Um, and I discovered the, the brand is honey stinger and they make these they're pretty much like Stroop waffles. If you're familiar, like tiny little waffles with honey in them and they are delicious. And the first time that I got to break one out during a run, I was just like, oh, so this is why people suffer through all of these miles. Um, I don't know about you, but I am like highly motivated by snacks. So feeling great, love that I get to treat myself now. It just makes the whole experience a lot friendlier. Um, on a similar note, if you're listening to this on what is this going up the 23rd, I think, um, that means that tomorrow, Tuesday is the registration for the half marathon and I'm excited, but also nervous because I know that it can sell out really quickly. So if you're listening to this before the 24th, please send good Disney marathon, half marathon vibes. My way, my fingers are crossed that I'm going to get in. I'm really, really looking forward to it. Of course, I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. She's a screenwriter with a degree in writing for film and television and the author of the best-selling. Why a fantasy series red queen, which currently has a TV adaptation in development with peacock and NBC, her newest novel realm breaker is the first of a brand new fantasy series and is available. Now, please welcome Victoria, if yard.

Speaker 3: 2:37

Hi, thank you so much for having me and oh my God. You just going through everything you've been doing and you know what running is like once you become good at running I, my jaws on the floor. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:50

I wouldn't by no means, say that I am good at running yet. Oh no,

Speaker 3: 2:54

No, no. Did being able to run a mile in my mind is oh, good at running.

Speaker 2: 3:00

Well, thank you. I will say that I lived the vast majority of my life, not being able to run a mile. So I do feel pretty darn proud of it at this point.

Speaker 3: 3:11

Absolutely. You're giving me some hope. I'm more of a spin bike person moving in real space.

Speaker 2: 3:18

Yeah. I bought for Christmas. I bought myself a stationary bike and I love it. I had no idea. I would love it so much.

Speaker 3: 3:26

They're great. They're awesome. I do feel like I'm sweating for hours after the exercise, but that's fine. Oh, it's intense for sure.

Speaker 2: 3:37

Um, okay. Victoria, people are so excited that I'm talking to you today. Got lots of awesome feedback. Uh, you're definitely a highly requested author for this podcast. I'm thinking nobody's surprised to hear that you're a superstar. Of course. Um, I want to start by asking you about your quote unquote author origin story. You can talk about how you knew you wanted to be a writer, how you got your agent, your first book published, wherever you want to take that. What is your origin story?

Speaker 3: 4:13

Yeah. Um, so I've always just kind of been a natural storyteller since I was a little kid, you know, even before I could write, I was telling stories with my dolls and action figures or, you know, my friends in the backyard. And I would say this happens now. And then this happens now and here's your character just, that was always part of me. I think I've connected to stories on a molecular level since I was very, very small, you know, first with movies and then with books. Um, and then I was, I was getting older. Um, I got into fan fiction a lot in middle school. Um, yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:48

What did you write?

Speaker 3: 4:50

Oh my God. I wrote so many things, but Lord of the rings was the really big one for me. I wrote across a lot of different fandoms though. Awesome.

Speaker 2: 4:58

What, what characters were you most excited to write about in Lord of the rings?

Speaker 3: 5:02

I realized looking back on my fan fiction, that almost everything I was doing was inserting more women into very, yeah. And so that has had, you know, a huge reflection in my work later on in life, uh, because I was clearly connecting to certain stories that didn't like have women in them or didn't have women in them in a meaningful way. So I was sort of feeding that one inside myself with the fanfiction. And that was also my first real introduction to creative writing and creative feedback. You know, I went, I had English class in school, but you weren't really writing creatively and you weren't, you know, workshopping it properly. So that was my, um, experience with critique was middle school and high school fanfiction

Speaker 2: 5:48

Know, I know this about you. I'm so excited that we have this in common

Speaker 3: 5:53

Be there are so many of us, I think who cut our teeth and, and I think it's given us quite the skin from an early age. Yeah. The flames were real there, but I was always sort of, I didn't really think I could write professionally as a job. Um, and especially when it came to novels and that was very, very intimidating to me, the idea of writing an entire book. And I definitely tried and failed so many times. Uh, but when I first really locked into the idea of creative writing, at least in college was, um, through the screenwriting avenue. I remember I was watching, um, an award show for George Lucas, where he was being given a lifetime achievement award. And there was a whole section on how he had gone to film school and he had gone to, uh, the university of Southern California's film school. And I did not realize, you know, oh my God, you can study film. And not just that you can study writing movies and television. And I was so enamored of this idea and I applied to, you know, half of my colleges were quote, normal colleges and half of them were filmed specific or they were programs that were filmed programs within a bigger university. Um, and I remember my parents kinda sat me down and were like, a lot of these schools, you are probably not going to get into. We love you. We believe in you. We think you're really talented, but just, you know, don't get your hopes too, too high. And then I did end up going to that same university. Um, and it sort of was the best decision I've ever made in my entire life. So I got kind of a, an education in screenwriting and a background in creative work from that side of things. Um, but thankfully at least to me, screenwriting and prose writing, at least when it comes down to the DNA of storytelling, they're exactly the same. It's just the format. That's different. So when I was a senior about to graduate with a ton of college loans at a film degree in Los Angeles, I was a little scared, but I also had always kind of thought, you know, I've written several full stories. Now they're script form, but there's still a story. Can I maybe come back to novels? Is it, is it so scary? And I had this idea that would eventually become red queen. And I knew it was a novel, not a screenplay because when you're writing these big fantasy worlds, you really can't write it as a screenplay and get it made unless, you know, you're Quintin Tarantino, some, you know, 21 year old, nobody saying here, I wrote a fantasy movie. People would be like, get out. Uh, so writing the book sounded like a better idea and also a better way to really learn this story. So I ended up moving home to Massachusetts from California, and I wrote that first draft of red queen with a connection back in LA, basically being like, when you finish, send it to me and we'll go over it and we'll see what we can do. Um, and when I finished, they passed it along to NewLeaf literary in New York who were a literary agency. And I of course had no that they were one of the best literary agencies that they represented a ton of my favorite authors. I remember going on their website and being like, oh. Um, they just sent my on edited first draft to these people. This is, this is the worst thing that could've ever happened. Um, and then two days later, I think the woman who would become my agent and the president of the company, uh, followed me on Twitter. And I was like, don't read too much into this. Don't read too much into this. This doesn't mean anything. And then they emailed saying, you know, can we get a phone call? We'd love to talk about your manuscript. And from there, it was, um, a little more normal. My path in was very different. A lot of people will query and go through that process. And I was very, very lucky to kind of sidestep that through my connections in LA. Um, but we did a round of edits, my agent, Susie and I, and then when we finished it, she said, okay, I'd love to sign you. And I thought that was a really good moment to sort of figure out, can we work together? Do we mesh well? Um, and now she's been, you know, the number one member on my team and absolutely like the force behind all of the red queen success and roam, breakers success. And I just feel like I have such a great night in front of me. She is my shield and my armor, and I feel so secure knowing she is my agent and she's the one going to bat for me.

Speaker 2: 10:19

That's a great story. And one of the reasons I love asking that question is because you do hear just different paths. Um, and yeah, everyone everyone's path to publication is different. I love that you have a degree in, in screenwriting and that that's kind of where you start like us as opposed to fanfiction. Um, in addition to fan fiction that you have this background in screenwriting, how much do you think screenwriting or learning the tips and tricks and how to write a successful screenplay has translated into your novel writing,

Speaker 3: 11:00

Uh, structure probably most, um, I use three act, eight sequence structure in every story that I tell. And that is pure movie structure. I'm

Speaker 2: 11:13

Fair. Three asks. Did you say eight secrets?

Speaker 3: 11:16

Yes. So act one is two sequences act two is four and act three is two sequences

Speaker 2: 11:24

Sequence, not see, I say, alright, secrets, what are the secrets? And I cannot tell you any of them.

Speaker 3: 11:35

We would, we call that Victoria's secret. Oh my God, I'm going to sign off now. That was terrible.

Speaker 2: 11:43

That was great. That will be, so that will be an infographic for sure. Um, okay, so, so three acts, eight sequences. What else can you tell me? Yeah,

Speaker 3: 11:58

That's what I like to think of the story of like the skeleton of the story is my knowing where my first act starts and ends. I always know where my third act starts and ends. I usually more than anything in the story, know the end of my second act, because that's usually the worst part of the story for the main character. That's a lowest point. Um, and that's the point that I always look most forward to because that's usually when the reader is most upset and I love doing that. Then there's also, you know, you have your inciting incident halfway between through the first act, you know, between sequence one and sequence two, something has to incite the story. Uh, your midpoint comes right in the middle between the first two sequences of act two. And the second two sequences of act two. And there's very specific ways to break it down where, you know, oh, sequence one is the status quo and sequence two is the story has begun and sequence three is this and that I don't subscribe to as sharply because I think sometimes that can take kind of the magic out of it. But usually my stories do align to those sequences pretty naturally anyways, cause it's the way I learned and it's my natural muscle memory, but especially with act structure and midpoint, I'm very, very strict about that. And it helps me build the outline. I do hate outlining, but it is very useful. Um, and my outlines are usually very spare. I know people who do, you know, 40 page outlines and I think, wow, that's insane. And that must be so nice to like get to a part of a chapter. I think what happens here, all right. I wrote it down. Whereas mine is a little more amorphous than my second acts, especially, or where I know the least of what's going on. I know where they start and I know where they end and you got to kind of figure out your way through. So that's difficult, but it's also where you sort of find the characters and find the surprises of the story. Because if it's, I always have that sort of natural reaction where things will start to change and surprise me, but that just means I know the story well enough that I'm not fully conscious when I'm writing it. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:03

Yeah. I also that second middle act and I'm sounds pretty similar to you where I do an outline, but they're not super detailed usually. Um, although lately I've been finding more and more that I'm getting better at outlining that middle act. The climax is suddenly like this jumble of like, I don't know, this person might die. And at some point we need to end up in the castle and it's some yes or no, we'll figure it out when we get there.

Speaker 3: 14:39

And I think there's a, there's a balance to be struck there too. You can be too outlined and you can be two on outlined. I'm very much, you know, there's the whole platter versus pantser situation. And the other way I've heard it explained is architects and gardeners. And I think it was Jerome Martin who used that, where like the architects have their plan and they build the house to the schematic and the gardeners plant the seed in the ground and let it grow. I like to say that I'm a garden, I'm a gardener who plants tomatoes. So I have my sticks and they will follow a certain path, but there will be little pearls and dips in certain places that might surprise me. But for the most part, I know where it starts and I know where it ends. Huh.

Speaker 2: 15:20

I had not heard those analogies, but they work really well. Yeah. And it's friendlier way of thinking about it too, then like Potter pants or there's this weird, like plotter pantser war that goes sometimes feel that it's.

Speaker 3: 15:35

I know. And, and there's always this, I find sometimes the more panels you're on, the more podcasts you listen to, the more, the way people talk about their craft, there are people who are, you know, just sharing what their version of it is and what works for them. And then there are people who are like, I'm so different and I do this thing and it's weird when people do other things and you're just like, whatever, it's so subjective to the author. Um, and I know a lot of readers, you know, they kind of want to know if they, especially, if they're aspiring writers, you know, how did you get to this place? How did you do this? What were the steps? And there's no clean way to, to explain it the same way. We all have different paths to say getting represented or getting published. There's no 1, 2, 3 step guide for this job. And that can be very frustrating, especially because in the real world, in real careers and professions and businesses, there usually is a 1, 2, 3 step. Here's what you do here to get to your, to get to here and with us, it's so fluid.

Speaker 2: 16:32

Yeah. Yeah. And also, especially with, with craft and process, like it changes too. Like you might, one thing that worked for you great with this book may completely fall apart in the next book. You just

Speaker 3: 16:47

Don't it. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It's different every single time. And every single time you think, oh, I'm not going to be scared anymore. And I'm going to believe of my work because I've written six books at this point. And then you're like, man, this is crap. And I don't know, who's why anyone's paying me to do this. This is the worst thing I've ever written. And then you come back a couple of weeks later and you think, oh, it wasn't that bad. I can fix this every time. How do I write a book?

Speaker 2: 17:17

No, it is intimidating. Especially I found writing series. Like you kind of get into a groove in the later books of a series, like, okay, I know my world in an out now I did. So in tune with these characters and then you wrap up that series and it's time to move on to something new. And it's like staring into this abyss. Like how did I ever do this before? I've completely forgotten.

Speaker 3: 17:43

Yeah. I was excited to jump into something new because I look at it as you know, and that was the sandbox I got to play in for a little while and then coming to a new sandbox. And I hope all of my friends come with me play in whatever castle I'm going to build next. I'm constantly thinking about the mistakes I've made in the past and how much I want to know. Okay. I forgot to mention that thing in the first book of that series on that screwed me for three books. So coming into this one, I'm going to do so much more road building, or I'm going to make sure I understand that piece of the world first. So it's been a learning experience too. I always find it really interesting when people ask you, what's your favorite of your books you've written and the way it works with artists is, you know, you always hope it's the next thing. That's the best thing. That's the thing you love the most. So I'm always like, well, whatever I'm working on now, because I can look back and you remember the negative things more to the positive, you see the scenes more than the average person would you see where you think you made a mistake or whatever, but we also have that great fuel of the next thing. The next thing, the next thing, which is also such a double-edged sword. Yeah,

Speaker 2: 18:54

No, it is. It's bittersweet for sure. Um, and, and strange when, you know, for me, like my favorite thing is always, like you say, the next one, you're so excited to move into this new story and there's so much potential and nothing's gone wrong with it yet, but eventually you're going to start writing that book and oh, there are going to be challenges and struggles and you are going to go through those periods where I hate this book. Why did I think of this book? But meanwhile, you're looking ahead to that next one. Oh, that next one will be fun. It's like something about it just keeps pulling us.

Speaker 3: 19:34

Oh yes. I think about it as, especially when you're in a series where you've got, you know, three or four books and you can be in the middle of it. I know you've got more to go. I like to think of it. That series is the wife. And then the next idea is the mistress. Hey, come see me. And you're like, I

Speaker 2: 19:54

Can't, I can't, I'm committed to this,

Speaker 3: 19:57

But it does help me choose what projects I want to do next. Because if a story sticks around while I'm working on something completely different and I'm actively saying, I can't even think about you. And then it still taps on my shoulder, then that's worth exploring. I just had that conversation with my agent yesterday. She was like, okay, career wise, let's talk. Where do you see the next few years going? And I had a brief little panic of, I just finished the first draft of the second book. Um, but that's how far out things are in publishing. You know, as much as I'm saying that, you know, we plan our, our careers and our schedules up to five years out. It's insane to think, okay, well, here's the book I'm going to do after, and I want it to be this and I want it to be a little bit different and I want it to be, uh, I want be this series or I want it to be a standalone. I want to do so many other things and have to think so macro, when we're so detail oriented, especially in a job where nothing is guaranteed. So we're operating on our reality today, which could be different from our reality tomorrow.

Speaker 2: 21:06

Yeah. And sometimes you will get locked into a contract. And then you're like, oh, I signed for this contract three years ago. And now I finally get to start writing it. And it may or may not be the book of your heart still. Like you hear stuff like that, where, okay, I've got to write this thing. I would have loved that three years ago, but now I have this other idea that I'd rather be working on. And it is, yeah. I think you kind of deal with

Speaker 3: 21:33

It is. And there's also, you know, the reality is that this is a business and you might come up with something and your publisher's like, no, that's not gonna, that's not gonna fly. Or they might say, actually, can we change gears on this? And you're like, I'll just spent a year working on it. What are you talking about? Uh, it's, it's very, very rare to be an author who is quote, safe in this industry. Almost all of us, no matter how successful you think a person is, we are always singing for our suffers. We are always trying to ensure that we get to keep doing what we're doing. There's no, there's no dry land. We're always treading water. And some people might be in the shallows and some people might really be in the deep end, but for the most part, we're all trying to keep our heads. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:17

And trying to like, and obviously in this podcast, we talk a lot about like maintaining the joy of writing, um, because it is a business and it is a career and you have to think practically, um, and you have to strategize, you know, what is the market going to like right now? What are my readers going to like, what is my publisher going to respond to at the same time we're in this? Because we have stories inside of us that want to be told. And so it's like finding that balance of, of writing things that bring us joy and that we are passionate about. And also that we hope other people will respond to.

Speaker 3: 22:58

Yeah. It's such a weird melding of the business mind and the creative mind. And a lot of us, you know, we are so gifted creatively, but do not have a head for business and that's fine, but suddenly it's the same way that, you know, most of us are writers because we're introverts and then suddenly you send us on tour and we have to be the most extroverted people ever. And you're just like, this is so embarrassing. That's how I feel a lot of dichotomies and a lot of pieces of this job that you do not know exist until you're in it.

Speaker 2: 23:35

Yeah. Yeah, no, I have, I mean, I love going on book tour. Um, and I love meeting readers and I have never afraid of public speaking. So I feel really lucky about that because I know that's unusual in this line of work at the same time, by the time the tour is over, I just like want to fall into bed and not move for days. Like I was so emotionally and mentally drained afterwards.

Speaker 3: 24:02

Yes. I totally agree. And I think all of us are kind of thinking, oh my God, I'm never going to complain about being on tour again, which I totally get, but I have not forgotten the collapse at the end where you're just saying, I need no one to speak to me for two days. I need to stare at this wall. Thank you. Good night.

Speaker 2: 24:22

Right. I know, I know it is. It's been kind of nice having the reprieve. Um, but I'm, I'm so ready to get back out there. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 24:31

I had the experience of the book launch within the pandemic where all of my events were via zoom and we actually had a really good tour and a great turnout. And it was so interesting to know that I just closed the computer and I could work out of my office on the couch and feeling totally different experience. Yeah. Instead of, you know, doing the signing, which is actually really fun. And, you know, it's the reason we do what we finally get to see the people or books or for, but then you go back to a not great hotel room in a city, knowing that you're getting up at four in the morning, the next day to get on a plane to another city and eat bad chicken Caesar salad, rushed to get yourself ready.

Speaker 2: 25:18

I was like the longest tangent of all 10 asked you about your new book yet. And we're like, almost over with this episode, tell me you have a new novel. It is the first in a new series. Tell listeners about realm breaker.

Speaker 3: 25:37

Yeah. So Ron breaker was really, um, obviously I had the amazing experience of the red queen series and having a book series that splashed out did really well to start and continued very well. And I had a great readership and they gave me sort of the room to say, what do I really want to write next? And I didn't really feel boxed into doing something exactly the same. I could go where my heart really wanted to go. Um, and as soon as I started thinking, you know, what do you want to do? What do you want to write next? I went back to what I wanted when I was 14 years old and what things I was trying to read or see that I wasn't finding. And we're going to circle back to fan fiction on this one. And that's where I connected the dots of, I loved word of the rings so much. My friends and I, we had a shrine in one of our bedrooms. I knew everything about those books. I knew everything about those movies. It was very much a part of my personality, but I also felt like that story had no room for me whatsoever, that I was like grasping at the basis of crumbs to find someone in that story who I could identify with. Um, and I was like, oh, Arwin she fights the ring rays for three minutes. That's what we get from her for the entire nine hour series. We love

Speaker 4: 26:56

Her coral and that wasn't even in the books.

Speaker 3: 27:02

I started thinking, well, what about writing the classic fantasy adventure that has a little bit more space and a little bit more room and reflects the medieval fantasy world that I've always wanted to see, which I think is more reflective of the actual medieval fantasy world, which was not very white and not very, you know, all one thing I wanted to have a really wide and expansive world that felt lived in and real. And like it had a cross pollination of cultures and languages, uh, and trade. So I jumped off from, I want to do the classic fantasy adventure that has room for more people in it. I want to do my version of that story. And that's how round breaker came to life. I knew I was going to be writing from the eyes of a teenage girl who wasn't terribly strong or, um, like physically capable, but her sort of quote, super power was she's very logical and very smart and really understands the way the world works. And I was going to kind of build my red tag team of not heroes around her. I definitely riffed on the whole idea of the noble heroes setting out on a quest and joining a team to kind of fight the ultimate evil in that the send up a run breaker is those heroes existed. And in the first chapter they die, they all fail. Who do we go to next teams like the JV team of saving the world, um, who do we call up? So instead of the heroes, you get some villains, you get some gray characters, you get some people who do not think they're heroes and do not think they belong, but now have to, because you know, the world's going to end. That means I'm going to die too. So I better try and help. It's very much a Lord of the rings meets guardians of the galaxy situation. And I got to have so much fun and just kind of riff on the tropes. I love and poke fun at the tropes that I've always thought were a little ridiculous, um, and just kind of create a cast of characters that I really enjoy. And I really loved throwing together. And, um, also I got to have, you know, my big action sequences. I finally got to write a villain romance, which had been kind of circling for years. Um, and I just kind of have been built, surprising myself with this story and really enjoying it. I haven't hit that moment where I hate the story itself. I definitely can hate the way I'm writing it or hate my performance for the day, but I always come back to loving that story and the characters and the world.

Speaker 2: 29:24

I think that's a really great sign right there. So is, is a trilogy, is that right?

Speaker 3: 29:34

Yes. Yeah, a very much a classic trilogy. And that's another thing with act structure is that you can break it down just in a single story, but in a series, you know, something like say take one of the original star wars trilogies that breaks down into act structure, very, very cleanly. Um, so that was, is what I'm hoping to do with this one. You know, the end of the second book is definitely that lowest point and I'm so excited for readers to experience it. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:01

So we've talked of course, about how you, um, make sparse outlines for your books and how you think of, um, these different acts structure and sequence structure, um, on the, the level, the level of a full trilogy. How much did you have the story planned out beyond book one?

Speaker 3: 30:23

Um, so a lot of book one was very, very planned in my head. I knew where the end of book two was going to be very early, because like I said, that was my end of the series act two, and that's a really important moment to know and to hinge on. Um, and I knew what I wanted to sort of do to the main character in that moment with what is going to happen. And I also know sort of the climax of the third book. So the climax of the whole thing, one thing I always try and keep in mind with writing a series is the most important thing is escalation. You know, every piece has to seem bigger than the piece before, and that doesn't necessarily mean, you know, a big action set piece. It can mean the character stakes or the emotion. Everything needs to get bigger as you keep going. Um, so I learned I would the red queen series, there are definitely moments where I was about to do something. And I would think I can't top that I have to wait and use that thing in the last book, because I don't know where to go from there. Um, so whenever people ask about planning out series is I think that that's the one thing you need to build your foundation on is knowing that you're constantly, you're sort of always pushing it a little bit further.

Speaker 2: 31:32

Yeah. I think that's a great advice. I often will use the analogy, um, of like classic video games and how every level would have a boss. And so like every boss gets stronger, but your characters are you as a player is also getting stronger until you build up to like the epic villain at the very

Speaker 3: 31:58

End. I totally agree. And I've, I've definitely thought that exact thing in my head before, because one of the things I love about that idea is you get to that place in the video game where you are about to go up to the final boss and you think of that first lost the first puzzle. And it seems so small now, and you can see how far you've come. I love having those moments in stories too, when you know, you've beaten the big bus and then you come back to that little bully at the beginning and you think, oh, screw you[inaudible]. Yes, exactly. There's still empowering and it's so fun. And the you're speaking my language.

Speaker 2: 32:38

Um, so I, when I'm reading a book, um, that I'm going to be, you know, talking about on this podcast, a lot of times, like as questions or different topics pop into my head, I'll just like, you know, jot them down in the little notes app on my phone. Um, and so when I was preparing for this interview, I went and I looked at my notes and I had one line that was just, world-building followed by about 10 exclamation points because it is fabulous world building. Obviously we're looking at a great epic fantasy there's politics, there's magic, there's mythology. Um, but it's, it's all very complex without feeling murky. Um, which I think is a really difficult line to walk sometimes. Um, so just for you generally speaking, what is your approach to world-building?

Speaker 3: 33:31

Yeah, absolutely. And thank you so much for saying that because the world building, especially, I mean, you know, with, with a series with a fantasy world, getting the reader to believe that the world exists is one of the big hurdles. And if the world is too confusing or they hit that moment where their suspension of disbelief is gone, you've lost them. And it's really hard to get them back. Um, so as for my world building, I always come from a map first that I'm a very visual person and getting that sort of geographic physical space down on paper really allows me to sort of figure out the world. I always go in knowing, you know, this is the kind of story I want to tell. It's going to be about this person. Here's the basic, you know, it's this quest they're going to destroy this person, there's portal worlds. And this guy is trying to tear it all down, but what is the world? I want to tell that in, I want to tell it in a world that is based on the medieval Mediterranean sphere. So Europe, north Africa, the middle east, okay. Let's go from there. Um, and then with my world building one thing that I find really useful as I try and really hone in on a decade or a year in our world where I can say, okay, this world is equivalent to 1,380, for example, anything that existed before that can exist in this world and anything that existed after that, you know, it doesn't. And I find that as a really easy way to sort of keep your audience believing the world, because even while there's magic and crazy things, you have to keep the little pieces in play in a way that they still believe it. I had a professor, um, and one of the best pieces of advice she gave us was you can get your audience to believe one unbelievable thing. Um, and, and to the best of my ability, that's what I try to do in red queen. The unbelievable thing was people have evolved to have superpowers and everything else in the world has to make sense under that umbrella in realm breaker it's, there are portals in this fantasy world that have magic attached to them and they go to different universals and everything else has to kind of make sense with that. Um, and, and I find that very important. Another thing is always finding those ways you can cut corners or ways you can make it look like, you know, I worked really, really hard on developing an entire language for this one set of people. When in actuality, you know, no, I said, they're going to use these four letters more than these four letters, and then suddenly all of their words and names and locations look like they belong together because I found this little shortcut and that's how I think about it. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:21

Did you make that up or is that something you picked up from somewhere?

Speaker 3: 36:25

I think I picked that up somewhere a long, long time ago. Cause I've done it with so many other fantasy stories that I've tried and failed to world build. Uh, but I find it to be a really simple technique. So in Rome breaker, you know, this group of people with this language, these are the letters that you'll see most in theirs and this people, these people with a different language, you won't see those letters at all. And it's all about, you know, making it that much easier for the audience to sort of immerse themselves in the world and learn it as you're telling it to them. So by the end of the book, they see a name and they're like, oh, that person's probably from there without me having to tell them,

Speaker 2: 37:01

I love that. I am absolutely going to use that because coming up with names or like, if you have a foreign language or names, it's such a headache, especially if you are writing with like different countries and languages, it's, it's so complicated and that simplifies it a great deal. That's why

Speaker 3: 37:27

We're not talking. Okay. We have publishing deadlines[inaudible]

Speaker 4: 37:33

Yes,

Speaker 3: 37:33

Yes, exactly. Oh,

Speaker 2: 37:36

That's such a good tip. Love it. Um, okay. I of course have to ask and we've only been talking about groundbreaker for like five minutes and I'm sorry about that, but I have to ask them about the TV situation. Please tell us what's happening.

Speaker 3: 37:55

Yeah. So, um, we're still in the process. We've been very, very lucky in that once we changed gears from trying to make it as a feature to making it as a television show or a streaming series, that things moved very, very quickly. Um, right before the pandemic, I met my potential showrunner and she, and I hit it off so well. And we got to work sort of developing the pitch. Uh, obviously things got in the way a little bit, but in the spring we sort of had our pitch Fest where we went out to a bunch of different networks and streamers and content creators all across. And we ended up going with peacock who now wants to turn it into a streaming series. So we're in that process right now. There's so many big moments to celebrate, but then there's so many other little steps to get to the next big moment. And I'm very aware of how the process goes. So I'm, you know, trying to be as low key as possible while also celebrating and trying to keep people in the loop as much as I can, but I've really enjoyed working with my show runner. Um, Beth Schwartz. I'm so lucky in that. Um, she show ran the last few seasons of arrow. And when we were first looking at people to try and bring on to help create the show, we wanted female showrunners and female showrunners are very rare. And then female show runners who do genre are even rarer. So to land one of the only ones who does it and also does it really, really well has been awesome. And I'm super excited to, you know, get the pilot done with her. And I feel so safe sort of giving the story over to her because all of the things that she connects to in red queen are the things that I connect to. And she really understands the core of the story.

Speaker 2: 39:38

Well, that is so exciting. I know that when it comes to Hollywood, there's just so many hurdles to jump through. And so I completely know what you're saying to me that like, you want to celebrate the moments, but also temper expectations to a degree. Um, but, but I am excited and yeah, I hope it happens because it will just be so thrilling. Yeah,

Speaker 3: 40:03

Me too. I mean, it's also crazy right now because it really has become the content more is, you know, there are so many different streams and platforms and every single one wants content. So it's really good for us, but also crazy.

Speaker 2: 40:16

Yeah. Did you say that you had originally written or started a version of red queen as a screenplay? So I never

Speaker 4: 40:25

Did. Um, it was written up as a

Speaker 3: 40:27

Novel first and then when we, uh, had an option, we brought on several screenwriters to take passes at writing a feature. I was never involved on the script side of things, uh, with that, like, they were very inclusive of me and were sending me drafts and getting notes and that kind of thing, but I was never one of the ones writing the script. Whereas this time around, I will be writing the pilot with, uh, the show runner. Oh, cool. Yeah. And I haven't written obviously with your background, I haven't written a screenplay in many years now. Um, so I'm interested to see how that process goes and this is something you'll appreciate. But, um, for us, you know, we, we judged by word count and a feature screenplay 120 pages is about 20,000 words. So a pilot script anywhere from 40 to 60 pages is probably going to top out around 10,000 words. So I'm wondering like, is this going to go really fast or am I suddenly going to get really slow

Speaker 2: 41:28

Funny? No, it is a totally different way of thinking about it. Um, I know having written some graphic novels, I go in with this expectation of like, oh, it's going to go so quickly. Cause the word count is so low compared to what I'm used to, but it's not always the case. You have to like pause and think about things in a totally different way.

Speaker 3: 41:48

Absolutely. And you have to be so deliberate in your approach in the screenplay. I remember when I first came back to prose writing when I left college and was suddenly writing a book, I mean, I felt like, oh my God, I can describe everything. And that first draft got about 40,000 words shaved off of it. There's a reason.

Speaker 2: 42:11

Oh, that's funny. But I, yeah, I know. I do think that there's this fabulous parallel between you talking about before, when you were going to school for screenwriting, but that getting a fantasy screenplay is so difficult unless you have, you know, big, a big name behind it. Um, and I just love that now your, your story is kind of coming full circle.

Speaker 3: 42:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been cool. And actually, this is interesting. My very first screenwriting professor on the first day said to us, unless you're writing a really low budget movie or a broad comedy, don't write the screenplay, write the book and four or five years later, I mean, I ran into him a couple months ago and he's like, I told you words of wisdom. Yep.

Speaker 2: 43:10

Victoria, I'm going to switch over to our happy writer bonus round.

Speaker 3: 43:16

What

Speaker 2: 43:17

Book makes you happy?

Speaker 3: 43:21

So, um, I think the princess diaries is one of the things that came to mind first makes me happy.

Speaker 2: 43:28

Good. One. What is your personal mantra?

Speaker 3: 43:37

Um, perfect. Is the enemy of finished? Uh, yes. What is the top

Speaker 2: 43:43

Song on your writing playlist?

Speaker 3: 43:46

Ooh, it depends on the project. Um, for round breaker, I listened to hell's bells by ACDC at first per that prologue was written to hell's bells on repeat oh.

Speaker 2: 44:01

That I never would have guessed. What is your favorite writing snack or beverage?

Speaker 3: 44:11

I always make myself like a vanilla latte or uh, like sort of a vanilla cold brew. I'm really into a nice coffee. And that's sort of my reward for sitting down at the desk and starting is that's when I'll give myself my coffee.

Speaker 2: 44:23

Oh, good. One. My next question was going to be, do you have a writing ritual? And it sounds like those kind of go together.

Speaker 3: 44:29

Yeah, I treat, I mean, it is my full-time job, so I find that I work best when I treat it like a job and I keep, you know, office hours, essentially. I'm trying to work 10 to five every day with a break for lunch and get everything I need to get done before 10 done. And then after five, the evening is mine as much as possible. And I do not work weekends. If I can help it.

Speaker 2: 44:53

What would you tell someone to help them become a happier writer?

Speaker 3: 44:59

Um, right when I began, this is so obvious, but you really should write what you want to write and don't try and chase a trend because you know, you're going to write the book and it's going to come out in two years and the trend will be long gone. So you, you you're writing for yourself first year, your first audience member, but then also just be aware of the audience you are writing for too.

Speaker 2: 45:20

What are you working on next? Or what can you tell us?

Speaker 3: 45:26

So book two is called blade breaker and it will ideally be coming out next August. The first draft has just been turned in as of a few weeks ago, depending on when the podcast stares and I'm hopefully going to be editing it in the fall with an eye to get it into copy edits before Christmas. Um, once you're on that book a year, schedule things really go.

Speaker 2: 45:52

Yeah, not much downtime.

Speaker 3: 45:54

Nope. Well, congratulations on getting the drinks. Thank you so much. It's it's, there's a lot of mountains to climb, but this is the biggest one.

Speaker 2: 46:06

Yeah. And I know, I mean, book one is a big book. I assume they're all going

Speaker 3: 46:11

To be hefty. Yeah. Yes. I'm aiming for this one to be around the same word count if I'm remembering correctly, rom breaker was one 50 and this one as of right now is 1 43. Okay. And realm, breaker gained word than edits. So this one might too. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:29

I mean always gain words and I always think, okay, this next round, I'm really going to focus on trimming out and it never happens. I'm always adding

Speaker 3: 46:37

So red queen, I always lost words. And then Ron baker, I was like, oh my, I don't have to just cut things.

Speaker 2: 46:47

All these extra roots come from. Right? Yeah. Well, and especially I've noticed like the more characters and subplots that I have. No, as you're going through those revisions, you start thinking, oh, I really want to add more to this character's backstory or, oh, I really need to flesh out this relationship. And it just, it grows things grow. Yep.

Speaker 3: 47:09

Yep. Absolutely. Lastly, where can people find you? Oh man, you can find me right behind you. You can find me. I'm at Victoria. Avior on Instagram, on Tik TOK. I'm not using Twitter anymore. And it has been so good for brain www dot[inaudible] dot com.

Speaker 2: 47:34

Okay. Can I, this is where I'm supposed to give my outro, but I am curious, was your publisher on board with the stepping away from Twitter? Because I have been like trying to slowly hint if my publisher be on Twitter anymore.

Speaker 3: 47:49

I, um, I didn't tell them. I just like agent saying, I'm going updates only am in the, in the last push of this draft. I'm just not going to do Twitter anymore. And now I haven't returned and no one said,

Speaker 2: 48:03

Well, there you go. A sneaky exit.

Speaker 3: 48:06

I think it's, I think it's a smart move. Yeah. Yeah. All

Speaker 2: 48:11

Right, Victoria. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 3: 48:14

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This has been really lovely

Speaker 2: 48:18

Readers. Be sure to check out realm breaker. It is out now. Of course, we always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. Next week, I will be talking to Mary Rose Wood about her up durable, middle grade novel. Alice's farm a rabbit's tail. I've been reading it with the girls the last couple of weeks and we all love it. And I'm hoping I can convince them to come on and help me out with the interview. You never know they're almost seven, but think they're 17. So we'll see if they're interested in coming out and helping mom or not. Um, either way. I hope you guys will give it a listen. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.

Speaker 1: 49:32

[inaudible].