Pushing the Bounds of Middle Grade Fiction with Maryrose Wood - Alice's Farm: A Rabbit's Tale

Marissa is joined by her daughters, Sloane and Delaney, to chat with Maryrose Wood about her new middle grade novel - ALICE'S FARM: A RABBIT'S TALE - as well as writing in third person omniscient point of view (yes, even for young readers!) and how multiple perspectives can be used to show the interconnectedness of your characters, subplots, and the world at large; how following our writerly intuition often pays off with a serendipitous gift from the universe... or research; crafting authentic cultures and belief systems based on factual research, even when your characters are animals; and the pleasure of lush, sophisticated language and vocabulary, and how neuroscience proves that we shouldn't be afraid to use it in children's fiction. Plus, Sloane and Delaney tell the story of our real-life bunny adventure!

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Transcript

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Speaker 2: 0:10

Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host. Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. What is making me happy this week is that I have two special co-host joining me for this episode. They happen to be two of my favorite human beings on the planet. And they're going to help us talk about today's book girls. Would you like to introduce yourselves? Yeah, go ahead. Mary Rose. Are you able to hear them? Okay. And I'm trying really hard not to chuckle with delight. You guys are so cute. Chuckling with delight is completely allowed on this podcast. Checkout, thank you girls for helping us out. It's going to be so much better because you're here full agreement. That's right. The girls, we printed off some bunny coloring pages right before we started. So they are hard at work coloring. Um, and I know that we both have an Alice and a thistle that we've colored all on social media so everyone can know what we're talking about. Um, of course we are all so happy to be talking to you. Today's guest, she's the author of the acclaimed middle grade series, the encourageable children of Ashton place and has written seven novels for young adults, including my life, the musical, and why I let my hair grow out. Her latest middle grade Alice's farm rabbit's tail came out last year and will be available in paperback this week. Please. Welcome Mary Rosewood. Well, hello. Hello. Hi Marissa. Thank you so much for having me on this podcast, which by the way, has the best name, the happy writer that I like, those words, those are good words. Try to live up to it too. It's important. It is important. Writers get all stressed about so many things, and that was part of the, the catalyst for it is that, you know, it's so easy to get caught up in oh, publication, drama and work and struggles and rejection and all of these things. And I thought, yeah, but you know what? It's kinda fun. Writing is fun. Let's focus on that. It's fun. At the end of the day, we are storytellers. We are just storytellers. And I, and I don't say just as if it's not an important job, I think a storyteller is one of the most important jobs there is. I agree. And one that I know, I feel super honored to get to do and get to share stories with everybody. Same. Um, so before we get into talking about Alice's farm, which I've been reading with the girls and we are all really enjoying it, which is of course why they're joining me on this episode. Um, but before we get into that, we had a really exciting event happened this morning. Um, that was surprisingly relevant to the book that we're going to be talking about. Funny how things like that tend to happen. I know as soon as, as soon as well, I I'll get I'll let the girls tell the story. Um, so I don't spoil anything. Uh, Delaney, do you want to start with, with what happened this morning? Yes. So when me and mommy were, um, well in the family room relaxing when you first come over here. So you're at the microphone, sweetheart. Um, when me and mommy and daddy were sitting in the family room this morning, waiting for sissy to get up, we heard some wrestling in our back bar room, and mama saw that Georgia had a, a little baby bunny in her mouth. So we chased dojo way and we got the bunny in a carrying case. And after a while, we took her to our grandma's house and grandma tried to give her some water or him. It could be a her, him, and, and some, you would do it on your system. And it's nameless this, this, and we think to leave it alone until it feels comfortable in the carrying case to come out of its hiding spot. It's hiding the tightening spots. Yeah. He's some kind of burrowed down in the towel day. Where did we get the name fissile from, from the bunny, the bunny book, more chuckling and delight coming here. I think I know the answer, but I'm not sure. I want to say it did Mary Rose that we're talking to write the bunny book and come up with the soul. You know, what's so wonderful. You guys call it the bunny book. That's what I call it too. Oh, that's funny. Like the whole time. Yeah, I was writing it. I just was like, uh, you know, people would say, what are you doing? I said, oh, I'm working on this buddy book. Love that. So everyone calls it the button, like everyone in my life. Like, how's the bunny book going? How'd the, there's the bunny book out yet. Oh, it's the bunny book at paperback, the buddy book. It's so cute. It's a very natural way thing to think of it. It is. It is. Um, well that was very good rendition of what happened. Um, we think the soul is going to be okay. Uh, he's got a few outweighs cause he wasn't a cat's mouth for a little while. Um, but they don't seem to be fatal. We think he's going to be just fine. Oh good. That's a relief. Yeah. And it was very exciting. It's been all. Anyone can talk about all day long. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for naming this bunny thistle. I think just like the bunny rabbit on the covers too, which is really funny. There you go. So with that, uh, Mary Rose, why don't you tell listeners who aren't familiar with the bunny book? What is Alison? Uh, I'd be happy to, well, yes, it's not really called the bunny book. It's called Alison farm or rabbit's tail. And Alison thistle, the characters that you've heard mentioned, um, are brother and sister, there are two Eastern cottontails and they live on a farm or in the area adjacent to an empty farm, uh, in the Hudson valley, which is a beautiful area just north of New York city. For those of you who know the east coast and the farm has a nobody in it, it hasn't had anybody in it for a couple of years. And of course they're young rabbits. So a couple of years might as well be forever. As far as they're concerned. And one day a new family takes over the farm house. And this is a cause of great debate within the rabbit community because on the one hand, not having farmers around makes life kind of peaceful because there's nobody out there, you know, with a shotgun, trying to scare rabbits away from the, you know, the garden. And importantly, there are no farmer's dogs to bother them. Um, as you guys learned this morning, sometimes house pets and wild rabbits, you know, don't always get along perfectly. So the experienced rabbits know that not having a dog around and not having a farmer around does make life peaceful, but some of the other experienced rabbits also know that not having a farmer around means that they don't get any good vegetables that the miraculous carrots and lettuces and radishes and, you know, things that would not, would not be growing wild are not available. And so life is a little bit less exciting without our farmer. So this is the opening situation of the book. These farmers arrive. And Alan, this is one of the young rabbits who is more excited and curious than cautious and wary. And so she and her brother this'll sort of volunteer to go down and see what these new farmers are all about. And importantly, discover if they do have one of these dreaded dogs. And what they discover is that these new farmers are not particularly experienced farmers. In fact, they're, they're not farmers at all. They're a family of what I would refer to as hipsters from Brooklyn, there's city dwellers. And they have a very idealistic dream of running a farm and returning to the land and, you know, having a simpler and more natural life and they're full of hopes and dreams. And by the way, I'm calling myself out here as much as I'm calling out any fictional Brooklyn hipsters. This was me. This was back in the day when my kids were young, I was like, oh, if only we could move to the country, you know, I could grow vegetables and write books. It would be so great. But here's the problem. You know, a failed farm is a ripe territory. It's prey. One might say for the local real estate developer and, um, Alison at this old sort of quickly discover that if these farmers fail, which they are very likely to do the whole territory, that their shared home will be bulldozed, um, and turned into something, not very hospitable to wild animals. And so they take it upon themselves. And Alice is really the hero here, um, to overcome what I guess we might call, uh, a very deep seated prejudice against farmers, because if you're a wild rabbit, the is the enemy, but guess what if you're a farmer, a rabbit is the enemy. And Alice realizes what the others don't, which is that if they failed, we're all gonna lose our home. And she decides that they are going to have to do what no rabbit has ever done before. And join is with the farmers, help the farmers and Alice herself decides that the best way to do this is for them to learn, to be farmers and Alison thistle, uh, take on an incredible adventure, this huge task of making sure this farm succeeds in spite of the well-intentioned, but let's face it incompetent. Uh, farmers who've come up from Brooklyn to try to take it on one of the things that they have to do. Again, sort of hearkening back to your little thistles adventure this morning is they have to learn how to work with the other animals. Because of course this isn't just about rabbits. Um, you know, there's a lot of different types of animals living in this valley. And if the farmland goes, then they all are impacted, but here's the thing about rabbits. They are prey animals. They're the bottom of the food chain. One might say when it comes to carnivores. And so many of the other animals in the valley would consider rabbits food and it takes tremendous amount of courage and tremendous leadership and persuasive ability from Alice to make deals and alliances with all of the other animals of the valley to help her effort, to save them all, to save their collective home by doing what she's doing. Um, so there's a lot of exploration of how interdependent we all are and how making, um, friends, uh, even if it's a strain friendship with one's perceived enemies is sometimes what needs to happen in order to serve the larger, good. I think it is such a sweet book and I loved how just how clever these rabbits are as they're trying to get this farm up and running and bringing in all of the other, well, where do we get seeds and how are we going to accomplish this? And I mean, all of it was just really fun to read about and to watch their adventures. And like I said, we've all been just really enjoying it. Oh, I'm glad to hear it. You know, um, one of the, you know, one of the questions that people always ask about any book, right, is, well, how, you know, how do you know what happens next? Like how do you come up with all the stuff, but you know, anybody who's ever farmed or even planted a vegetable garden knows that there are just certain things that have to happen. You know, you need seeds, you need to plant them, you need to fertilize them. You need to make sure they're weeded. And so it was really, for me, a really, um, one is tempted to say organic process. You see what I did Demaris, see what I did. Um, it was an organic process of imagining, well, what if I were a cottontail rabbit? And I had to, I had to make a garden grow, like what exactly what I do. And so some of the questions that we ask is writers, where are we saying? What if right? What if, what if I needed seats? Like they have to go to the chipmunks for seeds, right? Because who's got more seats than a chipmunk. I mean, that's what a chipmunk has one job to save seeds. That's what they do. And it was, so it was really fun to try to figure out not necessarily how I would solve these problems, but how would Alice solve them? What resources does she have available to make this happen? And, um, uh, it, it was really a lot of fun to come up with that stuff. And of course, I should say that these, this wonderful family they're called the Harvey's from Brooklyn. They do have a dog, but it is no ordinary farmer's dog rose. What do we think about Foxy Fox tail, uh, pigs. Oh, curly tail. Yes. Like a pig. Well, listen, she's not like part, dog part pig, although, you know, it, it, it doesn't take a literary critic to see that, you know, Charlotte's web was a great source of inspiration for me and wanting to write a book set on a farm. But, um, the reason that Foxy that the dog that belongs to the farmers has a curly tail is because she's a Shiba Inu. And that is not a typical farmer's dog, but it is, it is a dog that you see on a leash walking the streets of the city. And as it turns out, you know, Fox has never been off Felicia at all. She's a city dog. So her story, the story of Foxy coming up to the country is very much, uh, like a, uh, a parallel to the experience of her humans who also have to learn how, how to live in the country. It's very different for them and city life. And, um, along with Alice, we also focus quite a bit in the book on Carl. Who's the son, uh, of the Harvey family. And he is a very reluctant transplant. See what I did there, Marissa transplant, I'm full of them. Um, he's a very reluctant transplant to the country. He's at first, just really opposed to this crazy notion that he thinks his parents have. They thinks his parents have lost their minds. Like why would we ever leave Brooklyn? You know, why would we want to go to a farm, but he ends up falling in love with, with it. And, um, I think it goes on quite a journey of transformation himself. Yeah, no, I really loved just what the great, what a great variety of characters there were. Um, and Foxy in particular was one of my favorites because, you know, she so kind of high brow and, um, you know, it's very much a pampered city dog. Um, and of course I try to come up with voices for all the different characters while I'm reading. And so I don't know if you're how familiar you are with my little pony, but she got the rarity voice. I mean, so she was my favorite character to read for, oh, to be a fly on the wall, you reading the rarity voice. That is hilarious. It was super fun. Um, all right, girls, I know you each came up with a question to ask Mary Rose Sloan. Do you want to ask your question first? Do you remember what it was? Let's see the wheels turning. I bet it was a really good question. I hope I can answer it that. Why, um, why did, um, how did you come up with that idea? Oh, what a great question. Sloan. So sh so she's asked me how I've come up with the idea of the Mauler and I'll spell that. Cause it may be not be evident. What word that is. It's kind of a word I invented for the book. So Mahler is M a U L E R. Now the word Mol is, uh, you know, it's a word that describes, um, a kind of a destructive attack, right? It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a word that has a little bit of bad news built into it. And the, in the world of the rabbits, the idea that they have of what sometimes to the land is that this really terrifying, extremely noisy thing called the Mauler shows up and just digs up the earth, knocks down the trees, tears up, all the plants, flattens everything out. And then often after the Mahler is done, destroying everything, people come and make it all hard and black and smooth, and probably what you and I would call a parking lot, or maybe a building like a mini storage or a, you know, a shopping center at the animals have their own way of explaining it because that's the way they see the world. So they think of the Mauler as the kind of a monster it's, it's often bright yellow. It often has, uh, a person writing on its neck. Okay. I didn't hear what you said. Can you say it one more time? Oh, it sounds like a tractor. Well, you know, a tractor, there is kind of an important tractor character in the book too. Isn't there. I don't know if you guys have gotten up to that part yet, but the farmer who lives next door to the Harvey's, who turns out to be a really good friend and really helpful to them. Farmer, Janice has a tractor that she has. Um, it's an old tractor that she keeps running and she calls it tin can, uh, to some people come up with nicknames for their car. She has a nickname for her tractor. So attractor is a very useful piece of farm machinery. So you're, if you haven't met tin can yet you will, but the kind of machine, right construction machine that digs up the earth, there's a couple of different times, you know, we can call them bulldozers or earth movers, anybody who likes construction equipment knows what I'm talking about, but that's what the Mahler is. That's what the Mahler is to the rabbits. And that is what they fear is going to happen. If they do not make sure this farm succeeds, they fear that the Moller will come. So it's really important to Alice that, uh, that they have a good harvest when harvest time comes, because we do not want the Mauler to come do it girls the mean egg man to bring his Mahler. Delaney. Do you remember what your question was going to be? Okay, go ahead. How did you come up with the names and stuff for the little bunnies? Right. Well, um, I was trying to give most of the characters names that, um, uh, th the rabbit characters all have names that are connected in some way to plants. So the soul obviously is, is still, um, an Alice is named after, um, sweet Alice, which is a, kind of a, a common name of folk name for, uh, a pretty plant that has white flowers. And there's another rabbit named violet, right. Who's named after a flower. And then there were a couple of other rabbits as well, who all have names that are reminiscent of plants, but the fun, here's a fun story. Can I tell you a fun story about how I got Lester's name thinkings, Lester Lester, right. So, so Laster, I don't want to be spoilers cause I know you guys haven't finished the book, but Lester is the, is the name that I came up with for that character, because I just knew in my heart that he was Lester and don't ask me how I knew, but he just, you know, I was, I was writing, I was being creative. I don't know. And I was like, I think this character's name is Lester, but I, I know that I've won all the rabbits to have plant names. So I just, I'm going to trust that I'm going to figure it out. Like if maybe Lester's the wrong name and I'll change it later. Um, but I will, let me, let me just ride Ms. Luster. Cause it really, really came to me that that's what, what his name was. Well wouldn't, you know, I have some books you're going to laugh. This is a true story. I'm not making this up. I have some books about gardening that I bought when I lived in Brooklyn, just like the Harvey's do in the book. And I used to go to the Brooklyn Botanic garden all the time with my kids. Cause it was one of my favorite places in Brooklyn. And I would go and I would see all the plans and we just always have such a great time. And they had a series of gardening books that were so beautiful. They're just really beautifully illustrated. They're these little paperback books. And they had a whole series of them and I started to collect them and I still have them. It's been many years since I lived in Brooklyn, but I still have all my beautiful little paperback gardening books from the Brooklyn Botanic garden. And I was looking in one of those books and I found that there was a type of tomato called Lester's perfected, and I'm not going to say much more, but I just want you to know that sometimes inspiration comes from the most unexpected places. And I thought, got it, that's going to explain his name. And it inspired a whole bit of information that's in the book. And when you get to it, you're going to know exactly what I'm talking about. I love that. I love it when the research like brings everything together and you're suddenly like, oh, there was something right in the universe when I chose that. Oh, don't you think it happens a lot. It's such a great moment. It's so magical. I've had that happen. So often I do a lot of research, you know, when I write and um, I, I, because I often find that this is it's so inspiring either the things that I learned that I didn't know that I can use that give me ideas, but sometimes it's just exactly this kind of thing, which is where you have an intuitive impulse and you can't explain it, but it's, it's just shining. It's got a light around it and you've just now know, that's something I really need to look into. And it may take a little while to find out what it, what it means, but there it is. And you're like, you're like, well, see that. We love it. When that happens. That's truly the acts of the muse people talk about the muse, you know, where ideas come from. And, but when those moments happen, I really, I feel so much delight and pleasure in the work. Yeah, I do too. No, it's one of my favorite things about writing. Um, and just like very quickly backtrack, just to kind of be your character names in general. Cause I have to say, we've got this dog named Foxy when we meet the Fox named doggo all three of us absolutely cracked up. I thought that was the funniest thing. I'm glad I thought it was funny too. Now listen, do you guys, you know what a Sheba looks like, right? I mean, if you haven't, you don't know if you've done it multiple times, multiple times. If you look at for pictures or sheet, e-news, you'll see that they actually look a great deal like foxes, but that's actually quite true. Do you see the picture? You're looking at it now we do have it. Yep. Okay. So they look a lot like boxes. And um, once again, I was writing from my own experience of having a Shiba Inu. I had a Shiba Inu dog as pat and I. Her name was not Foxy. Her name was Lil, but she looked so much like the Fox, which is, you know, normal first little sheep. He knew that it was inevitable that when I would take her out, who ever we would meet would say, look, look, she looks like a little Fox. I have, I have known many Sheba owners. And some of them actually do name their dogs Foxy because it's just such an, it's like such an obvious call. But even if your dog isn't named Foxy, if you walk a Sheba around in public, people will say, oh my goodness, she looks like a little Fox. That's what they all say. But so much of the book, you know, has to do with these encounters between, you know, beings, creatures, whether animal or human, who are meeting across a kind of a distance of misunderstanding, you know, that they come from the city and they don't know what to expect about people who live in the country or they think that farm dogs are a certain way. And then it turns out that this particular farm dog has nothing the way that rabbits expect. Right. And, and Foxy is a city dog, and who has, is very vain, right? She's very proud of how Fox like she is. She's thinks she's really cute. And she, you know, she's mistaken for a little Fox and that's her name when she is let loose in the country and is off leash for the very first time when she encounters a real Fox. That is a huge moment for her because she's never seen a real Fox. She thought of herself as being Fox light. But what does it feel like to encounter a real Fox? So they have a wonderful, um, friendship Foxy and Foxy the dog and the dog and the Fox named doggo have a really fun friendship. It's, it's, it's, it gets really kind of profound by the end. And I think it's a kind of a, one of those productive identity crises that happens. You know, they both, they both end up having a much enlarged sense of who they are because they meet, like, they look through the mirror, right. And see, wait a minute. You're like me, but not right. Like these, these are the ways we're alike, but we're so different, you know, how do we get past all of that? Yeah. All right. Girls, you have been so good and patient, I'm going to set you free. Do you have anything else you want to say to Mary Rose? Do you want to say goodbye and thank you. Okay. Well, I have just so I need to get my they've been drawing all over my notes now, so I have to reorganize here. Um, well I just know for me as a parent, I have had such a wonderful time reading this to them. Um, largely because you know, it's a very kid friendly book. Um, of course, and it's, you know, the cute little story about rabbits and farming and all of these great animals. Um, but there has also been just like so many things that opened up discussion with us, um, and you know, talking about property development and, uh, what does it feel like to move into a new home? And, uh, there's a lot of mentioned in the beginning of the book of, uh, how Carl's dad received a golden parachute. And so there was like, how do I explain what a golden parachute is to six-year-olds? Um, but it's time, it's time. They knew it's time that this is relevant information for you. Um, and so it's just been one of those books that has just provided a ton of great fodder for us as a family, to, to give us new things to talk about. And I love that it's, it's really made the whole experience really fun. Oh, that feels so good to hear. Marissa. I'm glad you guys are having that experience with it. And I love a book. That's a good family read. I, I, I feel that that's one of the things that I love about writing middle grade, um, that a middle grade book can, um, can offer that to a family. That there's something about that space that, that can, if you put your mind to it, write a story that is just completely accessible to a six or seven year old listener, right? And because often these books get read aloud, um, or listened to an audio book, that's such a big thing, but it, but mom and dad and older siblings, and even younger siblings are not going to be left out of the fun that there's multiple layers of experience available in the book. And if a book makes a family have interesting conversations, that to me is wonderful. So I'm glad, but that's also as a salute to you as a very good mom and a good read aloud mom, right. That you, that you can see when to stop and draw out a conversation. I mean, that does make it a very rich experience. Well, thank you. I'm certainly trying. Um, but no, I mean, it is, it is one of those books that I think kind of defies age expectation, um, because you know, it is a middle grade book. I can absolutely see, you know, a fourth or fifth grader reading and enjoying this book, but my six-year-olds are absolutely loving it. And for me as an adult, like there's so many little hidden things and inside jokes that, you know, a kid isn't going to get, but they're hysterical. And so I just really appreciate that. Good. Well, you got to throw in something for the parents. If you're going to read a lot of book to your kids, you know, I mean, I have to keep the parents at pertained kind of along these lines. You know, the parents in many children's books are kind of off stage. And, uh, in this book, that's not the case so much, right? Because the plight of the Harvey family is, is very central. The rabbits are trying to save the farm, but the harpies are also in their own way trying to save the farm. And so we see all of them doing the best, trying to learn how to make it work. Carl, of course, is the, is the kid. And he has a baby sister, Marie, who was, I have to say as much fun to write as any character I've ever written. I love Marie to include that perspective. You know, you see, what's your I've talking animals. Like all rules are off. Am I right? So you can have a baby as a character in the book, if you, again, if you decide to do so. And I did, and Maria is really central important character. And I just don't know how many baby characters there are in middle grade, but Maria is one of them and she's going to be very important to the plot in her own sweet little way. Yeah. And so that is actually one thing I wanted to talk about specifically is you do have just this breadth of characters and they are all so vibrant and interesting. And of course, half of them are animals. And so we're getting just all of these great perspectives. How does a bunny rabbit see the world? And how was that different from how a dog sees the world versus a kid who just moved from the city and what are, how is he envisioning all of this? And you did such a great job with it. And I just was so pleased to be in all of these different points of view. I really felt like I understand bunny rabbits more now, and I understand farm dogs more now. Um, so for you as a writer, kind of getting into more craft stuff, what strategies did you use or how were you thinking about that when you were trying to bring all of these various voices to life? I love this question. I nerd out on writing craft. I just need to tell you that I just love it. You're in the right place. I nerd out. I teach writing craft. I mean, I, this is something that's really important to me. And as I've, as I've gotten older to just kind of put on my little hat as mentor and try to help other writers, you know, learn all the things I learned, the hard way, a little more quickly than I learned them. I like to help out. So I love to talk about this stuff. So what you're asking about, I'm going to answer by talking about the point of view of the book, because that is really the question, right? Because so, so many writers are like, well, what, what point of view should I use to write my book? And, and there's first person in their third person. And, and sometimes the exploration stops there. And, um, this could not be written in a first person point of view, could it, right? There's so many perspectives. And the interplay between the perspectives is what the book is about. The book is the magically, I would say, um, it, it is about interconnectedness. It's, it's about how we, you know, this is the system of nature. Nothing is independent. If one thing fails, it variables throughout and the metaphor of the food chain, uh, ripples throughout the book in that way. Because if you know, there's, uh, a character who appears later on in the book, uh, who is, uh, an American bald Eagle, and his name is John Glenn, for reasons that are explained in the book that is his name. And, you know, the story of the American bald Eagle was that they almost went extinct in the Hudson valley. Not because people were necessarily bothering the Eagles, but because the water in the Hudson river got so polluted that the fish died and the fish report isn't this right, that the fish became toxic and Eagles eat fish. And so by having something bad happen at one part of the food chain, it ripples all the way up. Right. And you know, you can talk about global warming. You can talk about all these kinds of systemic issues, right. We can see how this works in real life. So when we choose a point of view for a book, it's not just like, oh, I feel like telling it from the point of view of that character, or I feel like, you know, uh, I just, it's not necessarily what you feel like, what story are you telling thematically? Like the point of has an impact on the feeling of the book and this, this book was about interconnectedness. And so to write from an a, what we would call in a mission, third person point of view was the only way that I could see forward to do it. Now, nowadays people consider, I think, uh, an omniscient third person to be kind of a rare bird. Uh, a lot of kids fiction is written in first person. A lot of people think that kids like first person narratives were find them easier to read. You know, there's a lot of things that are said that I don't necessarily sign off on. Um, I think that if you understand your reader, you understand, you know, what you're trying to accomplish. Uh, you can sit down and write an admission, third person, point of view, like, you know, it's Tolstoy, man. It's just, these are, this is a big classical construction for a book, right? It, it, it, it pivots from place to place it pivots from character to character. It goes from the human world to the animal world and back again and all over the place. Right. And, and, uh, and that was something that I have to tell you, I had so much fun. I was like a kid in a candy store. Now I just named drop toll story, which is like totally pretentious. But I have to tell you that the, like the masterclass in writing in an emission third person is Charlotte's web. It is, you know, one of our classic, like great middle grade books of all time. And it is written gorgeously in an emission, third person, narrator that is quite sophisticated and complicated and any third grader right. Can get through Charlotte's web. So we, you know, we need to, uh, we need to look at our technique, right? And cause if you can make it work, it will work. And it will work even for a young reader. You know, the trick of writing with a lot of, a lot of different perspectives is to have a kind of a grasp of close third person so that your reader always knows where you are, uh, in terms of which, which character is in the spotlight at that moment. That's what you have to be careful of. Yeah. Did you, were you already very familiar with farming and you know, these various animals, like did you already know a lot about bunny rabbits and their lifespan and you know, all of these things, or was there a ton of research involved? There was a ton of research involved. There was a ton. Now one of the, um, mentor texts, we'll call it. One of my inspo books. One was Charlotte's web, obviously definitely wanted to write like a 21st take on life on a farm. But, uh, Watership down was a book that I loved as a teenager. And that to me was an of how you could write a really challenging, uh, epic adventure with rabbits. We we're calling it the bunny book and we're calling them bunny rabbits. Right. But, and, and my book is cute and funny. And it's, as you say, you know, I appreciate you saying, it's totally kid friendly, but these are not bunny rabbits. These are Eastern cottontails, right? Like these are actual, you know, with, if you take away that the society that I invent for them, their lifespan, their habits, the way their nervous systems work, their concerns that they have are authentic there because this is a book about nature. And so I needed the animals to function plausibly as part of the natural system of this farm. One of the things that you guys discovered today with your adventure, uh, was that rabbits are extremely vulnerable and that, um, that they are designed to compensate for that rabbit. Doesn't have, uh, a lot of weaponry, right? Rabbit, a rabbit has, uh, uh, a physical capacity to run away to sense danger coming and to flee. That's what a rabbit's defense mechanism is. It has an exquisite capacity to be terrified and to bolt the way they stay alive is by hiding and by knowing when dangerous coming and by being able to run away. And, and they also, uh, breed really fast because you have to replace bunnies quick because, you know, they're very vulnerable. So this, this kind of factual information about them was really a clue for me is as to how they would be philosophically. What is the spiritual life of a rabbit when you are very in touch with your own mortality, what kind of a worldview do you have? And that's something that I tried to introduce, you know, as part of the way the rabbits think that they know and are comfortable with the fact that life is short and sweet in a way that, uh, we, you know, humans with our larger brains and our larger capacity for denial, don't like to think about. Hmm. And, uh, and so, uh, my research, I mean, that was the question you asked. I did a ton of research, but it was it really informed way more than just the facts of the matter. Yes. This is the lifespan of the rabbit. This is what they like to eat this, you know, this is the kind of boroughs that they live in, blah, blah, blah. But it, it made me think, um, about what they would be like, no, and I really liked that and I felt that it adds so much depth and authenticity, um, because you really do take, like you say, these, these facts, the basics of what is life like for a bunny rabbit, but then you dig so much deeper into how that would affect personalities and their society and their culture. And I mean, it really felt very thought out and very real well, that's nice to hear, and I did not grow up as a farmer by the way, but I grew up around farming. And I do think that, that I have to give a little shout out to my Italian grandparents who were, were immigrants who were peasant farmers in Italy and came over to the United States is so many did, uh, in the 1930s and ended up some decades later through very hard work, uh, having a little house in the suburbs that my grandfather then proceeded to farm. You know, everyone else has got like a pool and a court in the backyard. My grandfather had a bace court and, uh, he took, he did everything else was just vegetables. So I grew up really fortunate in that we would go to my grandparents' house, which is such a few minutes away from ours and we'd go in the back. And every, it was just a farm and everything was grown fresh and we just grew up thinking that's what vegetables tasted like. And so I've always loved it. And it really gave me a lifelong passion for growing things, for gardening, for good food, fresh food, you know, nothing makes me happier than to see that, um, people are more aware now of, uh, you know, what we call farm to table buying directly from farmers, the problems that farmers have, you know, economically impact on the environment, all of these things, you know, where would we be without them look like, look at your plate. That's one thing I hope everyone would think about after reading this book. It, if you had, if you ate today, thank a farmer for sure. That's really something to consider. No, and again, as a parent, I think it's really important to introduce kids to fresh food and healthy food. Um, and we have a vegetable garden. We skipped it this year. Cause life was just too busy, but in the past the girls, it was one of their favorite things to go out and just, you know, pick a fresh cherry tomato and chomp it right there in the garden, or, you know, pick some fresh sugar snap peas. And I think that's a really special thing to be. Yeah. Oh, nothing tastes as good as something you grew yourself. Oh, that's so great. I'm so glad for your girls that they have that experience have wonderful. And I did, um, in while we were reading a couple of days ago, Delaney requested that I buy radishes the next time I'm at the grocery store. Okay. That's so gray. Oh, I'm so glad. Yeah. In the book, Alice, um, you know, she really wants to taste your radish. That's one of her goals, you know, Lester really talks up the fresh vegetables, which I appreciate as a mom. Exactly. You Leicester Leicester. So I want to, um, back something you mentioned before talking about writing for kids, but doing it in a really sophisticated way. Um, because that was one of the things that I felt was maybe most surprising for me about this book is that it's, you know, targeting, uh, at a young age group. But the language that you've chosen to use is very lush and very descriptive. There are words in this book that I didn't know. And I really got this feeling that you, as the writer, I mean, I'm making an assumption here and you can correct me, but I almost feel like you've made the decision. I don't care if they don't know what this word is. I don't care if they don't understand what a golden parachute is or whatever this concept is. Um, I want this to feel very lush and to not shy away from using really sophisticated language. And I loved that and I was not expecting it. Uh, well, I'm, I'm glad that you ended up loving it, and I'm glad that you noticed it and talked about it because anybody who knows the incorrigible children of Ashton place books, right. That's a series of six books and it's very different obviously to series it's takes place in Victoria in England. It's, you know, it's not contemporary farm life. It's not an animal tale. Right. But I, the word incorrigible is in the series. So, you know, I lay my cards on the table up front, that's going to bother you. You know, th th maybe these are not the books, but I, I got, you know, I was made confident by the readers of that series, that the use of language was one of the things that they loved about it. And it, it gave me confidence that my impulse, my intuition, that I should not in any way, um, dumb down or scale back, what kind of storytelling and what quality of writing craft and, um, richness of depiction, I would say that I wanted to bring to the table for young readers that they deserve the best that I could do and that they would appreciate it. Now, there is some really interesting neuroscience that I also believe in by the way. And it, it is something, again, that to me makes it really delicious to write middle grade, is that our brains before puberty, uh, our language acquisition machine, that that is in fact, one of the things that our brains are designed to be best at when we're quite young, we absorb language like a sponge, absorbs water, and it is when people, uh, so after the puberty happens and, you know, we get into the teen years, um, that starts to change. Our brains obviously changes as the bodies change. And it's one of the reasons that if you learn multiple languages, not only your native tongue, but perhaps a second language, when you're quite young, that you can grow up quite effortlessly, multilingual and speak all of the languages that you know, like a native. But if you pick up a second language or study it later in life in high school, or in college, you are likely no matter how fluent you become to have an accent, we, the brain does not quite have the facility later in life as it does. So, um, it, the moral of this, uh, as far as I'm concerned is that, uh, middle grade readers are, we should throw all of the words at them. Like, there's, there's never a better time for kids to learn, to learn language. And when we talk about vocabulary and there's nothing like technical, and they're just the words, they're just, they're just delicious words. Um, I use the words that I know I try to choose the best word to mean what I want it to mean, but I am aware that, uh, and I consider this a hallmark of good writing that if the context doesn't make the meaning of the word clear, then I need to work on it a little bit more because you don't want people lost. You don't want the reader to say, I don't know what's going on. You want them to be able to surmise enough of what the word means. They don't feel that they need to stop and say, I don't understand what this means. They got it. It just becomes part of the tune of the language and the meaning will, it will be absorbed, you know, it'll get there. I love words. I mean, you know, being a writer, uh, I think language is it to be able to use the full palette of words in English, which is remarkably rich language. Um, because it's such a hodge-podge language, English has stolen so many words from so many other languages that it's just glorious, rich hodgepodge. Um, it it's, it would be like being a painter, but I'm only going to use primary colors, like mix them. Right. All the colors, you know, use all the colors. Yeah, no, I so appreciate you talking about that and giving that feedback. Um, because I know we of course have lots of aspiring writers who listened to this, um, and a lot who are writing for younger audiences. And I, I mean, I think that in a lot of ways, um, even for like getting down to like picture book writing, there is this inclination to simplify sometimes. Um, and, and, you know, you don't want things going over your reader's head. Um, but I much prefer your take on it is that it's important to challenge into, you know, teach, not in a didactic way, but like, this is your opportunity to expand your reader's vocabulary and, you know, give them the full effect of language. And it's really done spectacularly in this book and has made me a fan, um, big time. And I just loved reading it out loud. Like it was one of those books that was just fun. There's just so many fun, playful, descriptive words. Uh, it just made the whole experience really enjoyable. Oh, that's so wonderful. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. That's such high praise and coming from you, it means a great deal to me to hear that. Thank you. Okay, Mary Rose, we are now going to start wrapping this up with our happy writer bonus round a bonus round. I'm excited bonus. Okay. Tea or coffee, coffee. Oh, coffee, all day long coffee, really strong coffee. I might add, I got to admit, I thought you were going to be a tea person. Mm. I don't mind tea. I'll drink it. I mean, I will, I have lots of flavors of tea, sometimes like a cup of tea. If I've had so much coffee that having more coffee would really be embarrassing. I will switch to tea, but I like, and I'm going to come right out and say it. This is not a paid endorsement. I'm a pizza fan. I like my pizza coffee, French roast. This is dark bold coffee, puppy, dog, or bunny rabbit. Ah, oh gosh. That's a tough one. Well, um, I'm going to say puppy, dog. I'm going to say puppy in my family. We have had beloved dogs and we have had beloved rabbits. Um, so, you know, we've had, we've had those experiences of both, but, um, I think if I were, I were inclined, uh, at this stage of my life, I would go with puppy dog plotter or pantser I have both. You gotta have both. Um, uh, I, I can't, I can't choose one and be honest. So I'm just going to quickly say that every writer does both. It's simply a question of which you do first. That's an interesting take on it, which do you do first? Uh, uh, very gentle, plotting, gentle, gentle plotter. I don't write outlines, but I do, uh, I think about story structure, a great deal writing in the morning or writing at night a hundred percent morning, morning, morning by noon. It's it's done. It's over by noon. Oh, for me on the good days. Yes. Oh my goodness. The afternoons we save for like paying the bills and washing the dishes brain is done. It's done sometimes. There's like a little like second wind right before dinner, but no writing is great in the morning. What is your favorite writing snack? Ah, does coffee count? Uh, it's probably the only thing I actually indulge in while I'm writing, but if I am really up against it and I mean really up against it, dark chocolate. Nice. What book makes you? Oh, so many of them, um, I will throw Jane air into the news. I will throw Jane Erin and the Hobbit two classic choices. What are you working on next? Oh, I'm glad you asked. I just turned in a manuscript for a new book to my agent this week. And, uh, we had, uh, she and I had a conversation this morning about it. So what I'm working on next is another middle grade book. The working title is bad Badger and, uh, I will be excited to share news about it as it comes to market. So I'm going to be working on some revisions to the manuscript and hopefully, um, the second book in that, uh, world coming up. Awesome. Awesome. And I love the title. Thank you. Lastly, where can people find you? People can find me online at my website, which is Mary Rose, wood.com. And that's where the information about my books lives. But if you're a grownup writer and you want to nerd out with me about writing craft and story structure, you can find that side of my brain@pathofthestoryteller.com, which is where I teach and mentor. And I have my own program called path of the storyteller. And it's just, uh, it's something that's become really important to me to, um, share, you know, my hardware and wisdom as much as I can to help other writers tell their stories. That's it? I guess I'm on Instagram too, but I'm not a huge social media person, but those are the, those are the best places to find me. Oh, and I shouldn't say by the way, I also do content for kids that is, um, you noted the, you know, the, the possibility of having good conversations based on my books. And this is something that's, um, I really enjoy. It's just something I like to, to double down on. And so I actually started, um, a program called the Swanbourne academy, which is derived from my incorrigible children of Ashton place books. And so if you go to www.swanbourneacademy.com, that is a whole other opportunity to find like educational content that is derived whimsically from the books. It's actually a great deal of fun. I love creating content for the Swanbourne academy. Oh, fun. And I have to say that I did not realize that you were the author of the incorrigible children of Ashton place. Um, and then when I was looking at your website this morning and I came across that and I was like, oh, we have that first book on our shelf waiting to be read. So I was already excited. I've heard really good things about this series. And now I'm even more excited. Well, I'm excited too, because now I know you're going to like the big words in it. Marissa, I love the big words you can, you can take your girls after you finished with that. Alice is farm and the incorrigible children, you go right to the sat test. If they still give that, I don't even know if they still give it, but you know, the vocab words will be solid. Awesome. That's going for very good. Excellent. Mary Rose, thank you so much for joining me today. This is such a lovely conversation. What a treat I'm so, so grateful for this conversation and for your lovely and insightful questions, it's really a delight chatting with you. It has been a lot of fun, and I'm glad that the girls were able to join us as well. I hope they were able to find their father and aren't up to no good as we speak right now. I have a question. I have a question for you. How do you get any work done with such cute running around the house? Oh, it's not always easy. Oh, they are just darling. They're just adorable. I know they are. They're great kids. Uh, let's see readers definitely check out Allison's farm. Rabbit's tail. It is available now. Uh, of course we encourage you to support your local independent bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer coming up next week, I will be talking to Sarah roughly about her new historical fantasy. The bones of ruin it is spectacular. It's coming out on September 7th and I hope you will give the episode Ellison. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.

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