Character Archetypes and Historical Fantasy Death Tournaments with Sarah Raughley - The Bones of Ruin

Marissa chats with Sarah Raughley about her new historical fantasy - THE BONES OF RUIN - as well as balancing incredible superpowers with weaknesses and drawbacks - whether physical, emotional, or psychological; using your protagonist's greatest desires, and the consequences they'll face if they don't get what they want, to create escalating suspense; a number of things to consider when designing an in-story tournament or competition; how grounding your historical fantasy in well-researched reality helps your readers suspend disbelief; and a great tip inspired by anime and manga: developing characters around a set archetype, before digging deeper to make them fully realized and three-dimensional.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 0:10

Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you so much for joining me. One thing that has been making me super happy today, as it, I finished signing my Tippens. What are Tippins you ask? Um, they're these sheets of paper that gets sent to authors and we sign them and then we send them back to the printer to be inserted into final books. Um, and then they use those for various promotions throughout the year. And in the past I've usually been asked to sign maybe like five to 7,000 for a book. Well, this year we had a lot of requests, um, and I had 18,000 pages to sign. And so for the last like three months for a couple of hours, every single day, I have been signing Tippins and I finally finished the last box of them last night and sent it away and I'm so happy to be done with it. Um, but I hope that if you are able to get your hands on one of those signed copies, I hope it brings you joy, anything for you readers. And of course, I am super happy to be talking to today's guest. She's the author of several white fantasy novels, including the bestselling effigies series. She also has a PhD in English and conducts writing workshops in her community for youth and adults. Her newest novel. The bones of ruin comes out tomorrow on September 7th, please. Welcome Sarah Raleigh.

Speaker 3: 1:54

Hi guys.

Speaker 2: 1:56

Welcome to the show and congratulations on launching your new book. How are you feeling?

Speaker 3: 2:01

I'm feeling so great. Marissa and I'm feeling nervous, but we're finally here.

Speaker 2: 2:09

How long have you been working on this book? Would you say?

Speaker 3: 2:12

Oh, since 2018. Definitely. Yeah, it started as a proposal. So it's been years.

Speaker 2: 2:20

Yeah. Oh, I know that feeling of when you finally get there, this book you've probably been talking about and obviously writing and working on for so long. It's so good to finally get them out in the world. Well, I am super, super excited. I loved this book, um, and I try not to play favorites with podcasts guests, but I will be honest. This is one of my favorite books of the year. I have loved it. I want everybody to go buy it immediately. Everybody else into Murcia. I know what I'm talking about. All right. The first thing that we usually start asking with asking our guests, um, is I want to know about your author origin story. Um, so whether that's, you know, how you knew you wanted to be a writer or how you got your agent or how you got your first book published, kind of whatever that means to you. What is your origin story?

Speaker 3: 3:23

Uh, well, you know, I think all three of those are really important in telling one's, uh, origin story in terms of like how they got started for me. I always loved telling stories ever since I was a little kid, but I always had this thing where I thought that I had to be a doctor. Well, I am a doctor, but I am a medical doctor basically. And literally, um, you know, sometimes people's parents kind of push them to one direction, even though you're kind of feeling out another sort of plan for your own life. So, you know, I just went for it. I think eventually I started reading other people's books and while I was in grad school, I thought, you know what, I can do this. And I started query, I started querying agents. I did all of the, um, all of the information seeking and learning that I needed to do. And it took me 10 months to get an agent and another few years to get published. And it was really just about realizing that I could create a lane for myself and being a writer. If it's something that you really want to do, then you should go for it.

Speaker 2: 4:42

So you say you got an agent and then it was a few years before you got published. Was that, did you end up getting the book that you got your agent with? Was that the one that got published?

Speaker 3: 4:57

Yeah, I, I heard so many stories about that, that people had to trunk their first novels or the novels that they got their agents with. And I was so determined that I would, uh, buck that trend, but I ended up not, it's

Speaker 2: 5:10

Really common. It's surprisingly common.

Speaker 3: 5:13

It's very common and there's no shame in it. You know? Um, it was something that was hard for me to let go, because I really did try with that book, but it's always about, you know, writing the next book and always trying to improve. And I still liked that story idea, you know, um, in the future I may go back.

Speaker 2: 5:36

Yeah. Yeah. I know I have, uh, a number of stories that have been shelved, um, and there's still a place in my heart for those stories. Um, and some of them that I worked on for years and you kinda think maybe, you know, I've grown now. I I've, my skills have improved what I do with it in the future. You never know. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 6:00

Yeah. And there's always a, there's so many different kinds of publishing that you don't necessarily have to go through the traditional means if you want to self-publish it or just make it available for free, there's all kinds of things that you can do.

Speaker 2: 6:16

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I'm also curious, so you said that it was while you were in grad school was when you started to feel like, Hey, maybe I could actually do this, where you getting a degree, what was your degree in? And I'm just curious about that. Like, were you writing, were you trying to be a doctor, like a medical doctor? Like what, well,

Speaker 3: 6:39

Yeah, I just skip a few, no origin story just to keep assisting, but yeah, you know, I, I tried to do the whole medical school thing. Um, I didn't quite get into medical school and then it was kind of like, okay, what do I do now? And I realized that I really liked English. I got recommendations from my professors because I was kind of doing a minor at the same time that I was doing biology. So I switched into English. And once I got my undergrad degree in that I moved on to grad school. And, um, again, you just never know what's going to happen in life, but switching from biology to English, it really made a lot of sense. It may seem like a completely different feel. I mean, it is a completely different field, but for me it was a switch that made sense. And I felt comfortable in right in that department. And while I was trying to, you know, do my thesis and write that I had all these story ideas. So I was writing my thesis literally at the same time that I was writing my first book with the effigy series. And, um, also the book that came before the FGCs as well. So, I mean, you just never know what's going to happen in life, but if a door opens, you should try and walk through it and see where it takes you.

Speaker 2: 8:04

That is excellent advice. I think it's a good skill to be able to pivot in life. Sometimes I also have to point out that we recently had, um, Tori Bolina on the podcast and she has her, if she's in the middle of getting her PhD in English. And I mentioned during our interview, like, I don't feel like I know anybody who has a doctorate in English and now I've met you. And I have, I feel like now that I've said that they're going to all start coming out of the woodwork and I'm being like really Marissa, lots of people have PhDs in English. I know, you

Speaker 3: 8:38

Know, the question is, what do you do with those PhDs in English? You know, a lot of people, you know, I think it's really important and there's so many different fields within English. Like there are people who work on African American literature and then there are who work on like Renaissance literature. So you can do different kinds of things, but, you know, in terms of the jobs that are available, I think it's a little bit more difficult. I can see why people kind of stick the biology. Give me a little bit more of a shirt thing. Right.

Speaker 2: 9:12

Do you, how much do you feel like, um, getting the doctorate has, how much has it applied to your actual craft of writing? Um, how much has it applied to your career decisions? Like how has it impacted your story?

Speaker 3: 9:29

I mean, I think it really, there are a lot of transferable skills. When you learn how to analyze books, other people's books, then you can learn how to write your own books. You know, a lot of writers will say, if you want to be a writer you got to read. Right. And I think when you're in the English department, you're reading tons and tons of books, you're, you're not only, um, analyzing the language. And how does authors tell those stories and their structures, but you're getting acquainted with so many different kinds of voices, um, somebody different themes, you know, how does Tony Morrison sort of speak to the theme of colonialism differently than Alice Walker and so on. And, you know, even if you're not writing books in the same genre, it will help you eventually find your own voice and you know how to tell your own stories. And, um, these days, you know, it's kinda sad that young adult literature hasn't always traditionally been looked at in the same way as literary kind of books. Um, but definitely I think we're seeing more scholarly attention being paid to our market and adult literature and children's publishing. So, you know, there's a lot of, if you're interested in, children's publishing in reading it and analyzing it and writing it, the English department might be the place for you.

Speaker 2: 11:05

Yeah. That's a great point. I know I've over the years been contacted by a handful of people who have used, um, largely cinder, um, and occasionally heartless as like the basis of a thesis that they've written, um, for master's degree, maybe doctorates, I'm not really sure. Um, and I always thought that's so cool thing to be able to, to study, but then like to, to, I dunno, take existing literature and be like, how can I find a new angle to look at this? And I don't know. I think school is kind of fun. I was always a nerd, so I always miss being in school. Oh

Speaker 3: 11:46

Yeah. Grad school is for the perpetual nerds.

Speaker 2: 11:51

Totally. And then if you get all the way through your doctorate degree, now we get to call your doctor.

Speaker 3: 11:57

Yes. Although I feel weird. People call me doctor, but you know, it's a title I earns on. I'm happy to own it. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:07

I embrace it, I think. Um, okay. Let's talk about your new book coming out. Um, before I get, before we jump into the bones of ruin, I have to say when I was, uh, stalking you, looking at your website this morning, I noticed that your previous series, the effigies series had been compared to sailor moon meets Pacific rim. Yes. And I have not read those books, but you know that they are now on my list because that sounds incredible. And everyone knows I'm a huge fan of sailor moon. Um, but I want to know, first of all, what do you compare the bones of ruin to

Speaker 3: 12:52

The bones of Bruin? Um, I would like to compare it to, it's like a supernatural, the supernatural hunger games in 19th century. London will say that.

Speaker 2: 13:06

Yeah, no. I had a hunger games on my list too. I had it's careful meets hunger games meets Avengers was what I read. It's so good. It's so, so good. Um, I'm also gonna throw out that it had, for me, it has a lot of vibes of, um, the gilded wolves by Rashani Chuckchi, which is one of my favorite books. Um, and so people who are fans of that series should absolutely check this one out. Okay. On that note, would you please tell listeners what is the bones of ruin about?

Speaker 3: 13:39

Well, the bones of ruin, again, like I said, it's set in the 19th century in London. So if you're into steam, punk and historical fantasy, this may be up your alley. Um, it's about an African tight rope Walker who has a secret. She can't die and she ends up getting recruited into this secret societies, deadly tournaments to the death, um, with other supernatural people, which is why I'm like, well, this is supernatural hunger games. Um, and it's all in alternate 1880s, London. So there's this secret society that thinks the world is ending and how do they figure out, uh, who deserves to rule the end, you know, the world after the end. And this is how they're going to do it. They're gonna create their own teams and have them fight to the death. And whoever's left standing. That's the secret society member that gets to be the winner and rule the world,

Speaker 2: 14:46

Which is like how I would choose who should be in charge. Yeah. The society

Speaker 3: 14:54

They're called the enlightenment committee. And they're very much they're filled with, um, people who all over Europe who are the most powerful, um, wealthy. And I would say most pompous, uh, people, the fact that they even feel like they're worthy to be the ones to sort of guide humanity after the apocalypse is in and of itself, um, proof of their hubris. But they're also willing to sort of take these supernatural quote unquote freaks, uh, within London and have them fight to the death. And it kind of shows, uh, how terrible they are. They're

Speaker 2: 15:33

Terrible. Yeah, no, they had definitely their, uh, their thought process are a little questionable people. Um, but in the end it makes for an exceptional story. Uh, I know. Okay. So I wrote, um, a trilogy called the renegades, which was super heroes. And one of the questions that came up all the time was how do you come up with super powers? Um, and I know from personal experience that it is really challenging trying to come up with these supernatural abilities that like feel really unique and like add really great tension to the plot and, and all of these things. So I'm really curious, what were some of the methods that you used to try to come up with all of these different powers?

Speaker 3: 16:28

Well, I think when it came to the main characters, a lot of it had to do with their personalities. And, um, actually there's an in story reason why a lot of the characters have their own specific and unique powers. And we start to learn that towards the end of the book, but it actually relates a lot to their past and their personalities. Um, I really kind of wanted to tie it to the characters, personalities, and experiences, but sometimes, you know, when you're writing a fight scene, an idea might come to you and you might be like, oh, that's so cool. So you kind of, you know, change things or mold things around that fight scene you're imagining in your head. And I think that happened for me, for some of the characters, especially some of the less important characters, um, who were kinda like, I don't, I hate to call them the fodder characters, but there's always like the, you know, the, the red shirted end and seeing characters that aren't like super important, but they're there to kind of fill out the, the roster, but it's going

Speaker 2: 17:37

To die in a tournament to the death.

Speaker 3: 17:40

Yeah, exactly. You can't have all of them be super important. Um, but yeah, when it came to that, it was really about imagining what kind of fight scene I wanted and okay. What kind of store, what kind of power will fit that Bates scene and, uh, going from there,

Speaker 2: 17:59

Did you, was it difficult for you to try to write powers? Because I know one of my things, it was like I was constantly battling with was writing superpowers that on one hand were like really cool and, you know, would make for really great fight scenes. Like you say, and almost like cinema graphic in some ways. Well, not making them so powerful that I felt like, oh, I've just totally screwed my main character.

Speaker 3: 18:31

Yeah. You know, when it comes to the main character, I was really kind of worried about, you know, what does it mean that she can't die? And I remember my brothers telling me like, okay, you have a character who was in a fight to the death, but she can't die. So doesn't that mean that she wins automatically. So it was like, oh, but then I realized, oh right. When it, when it comes to characters, um, empowers there always has to be weaknesses. And those weaknesses can come in the shape of drawbacks, like immediate drawbacks when it comes to powers. Like for example, you know, one of the characters max, he can do something really cool. He can kind of bend people's sense of time, but it does immediate rebirth. And he, he feels in his body and he feels like immediately, like he can't, he can't just keep doing it because when he does it, it hurts him physically. You know? So you always want to think about drawbacks and things like that. And for Iris, there are definite drawbacks to the fact that she can't die. I talk about the emotional trauma and the psychological trauma, and there's a lot of things that I can't really talk about or else it will be a spoiler, especially for the end of the bucket and the next few butts in the series. But there's always, there's always some kind of drawback whether it's physical or there's some emotional, psychological, um, and you know, you don't, you don't want your characters to be overpowered because then it just takes away all the tension.[inaudible],

Speaker 2: 20:16

That is a perfect segue into one other thing that I wanted to talk about, um, because you do have this main character who can't die. And so often in fantasy fiction, or kind of big commercial genre fiction, a lot of the stakes come from characters being in these life and death situations. Um, and yet you've kind of removed that. We know that she can't die. Can't be worried about her dying. Um, and yet this book is just packed full of suspense and it builds very naturally, even though we're not worried about her actually dying. Um, so what is your strategy there for creating lots of suspense and keeping us on the edge of our seat, wondering what's going to happen, even though you've given yourself this really unique challenge?

Speaker 3: 21:15

Well, my main character, Iris, who can't die, I made sure that she says in the book, there are a lot of things that are worse than us. And, you know, if we think about in our lives, there's so many things that we worry about that have absolutely nothing to do with death. Um, so what is it that the character wants? What is it that the character can't live without? These are things that you have to ask. And I think it has to mostly do with how well you understand your character and the central contract, uh, or conflict that your character is going through. So for Iris, her main thing is she desperately wants to know who she is. And I make sure that the readers know how important it is to her, how psychologically damaging it is that she doesn't know, but also that she may not want to know. And as she is going through this journey of trying to figure out who she is and why she can't die, there are other people whose lives are at stake. Her loved ones are at stake. Her former life is at stake. Um, her agency is at stake. There are people who want to control her. And what does it mean to have your control, the control of your body completely taken away? And so there are a lot of things that can happen to people that would be devastating, even if they are immortal. So you always have to just think about what kind of story you're trying to tell, who is the character that you're focusing on? What does that character want above all things? How does that feed into the central conflict of the story? And once you have that, then you can start thinking about, you know, okay, what are the stakes? What happens if this character doesn't get what she wants, if it's not that earth-shattering, or that important, then the readers aren't going to feel the suspense. But if you make sure that the readers know that this is incredibly important for a number of reasons, and that there are big consequences, if she doesn't get what she wants, or if she doesn't achieve her goal, if she she's at the wrong way, et cetera, et cetera, then your readers will feel the stakes

Speaker 2: 23:47

Was Iris, a character that came to you like really quickly. Like, did you feel like you knew her and heard her voice speaking to you right off the bat? Or was she one of those characters that kind of develops over multiple drafts or revisions?

Speaker 3: 24:04

Definitely. I think Iris developed over multiple drafts and, you know, I had the idea of Iris because there are a lot of things that I wanted to speak to in this book. I mentioned some of them in terms of like agency over one's body. And, you know, when you're talking about sort of an African circus performer in the 19th century, living in Europe, I think there are a lot of things that, you know, you could say about, you know, colonialism and slavery and whether somebody has ownership over their own bodies and things like that. So, you know, I have an idea of what she was like, but as I wrote the story, and as I sort of refined the story that I got to know a little bit more about what made her desperate and why she was desperate about it and you know, who she was and why she was attracted to certain people and all of the stuff. And it was really exciting to get to know this character, especially, you know, there are other things that I'm learning about her still as I continued to write the series.

Speaker 2: 25:13

Yeah. Yeah. And I asked because she is one of those characters that feels so real. And I loved her. And one of the things that I love about Iris is it, she, she has big emotions and we get to be there with her, experiencing them throughout. And I just loved it. I loved being on this journey with her learning, everything that she's learning and experiencing everything that she's going through at the same time. I mean, it just felt very fleshed out. Um, so on that note, I do kind of want to dig a little bit more into just kind of general character development, not necessarily just with Iris, um, but with a lot of your side characters too, like every time you introduce a new guy, I was swooning within a page and a half every time we met a new villain, I was just immediately like fist clenched and wanting to strangle these people. How do you do that?

Speaker 3: 26:21

You know, it's funny. Um, I'm so inspired oftentimes by Adam May feel like,

Speaker 2: 26:31

Yes,

Speaker 3: 26:31

Yeah. Like stay their moon. I mean, we talked about it before the recording, but we're both big fans and, you know, things like fishy Yogi, like anime like that. And just, they're very, to the point, they're very, very clear the anime that I really like at least, um, and that I grew up with and I still watch they're very much about like letting you know, okay, this, this character has this kind of personality, this kind of person like this kind of, and you get an immediate sense of this is the archetype that the character is first and foremost. And then the character almost like peeling an onion, you start to get more and more layers from that character. Like if you wash that Rudo or something like that, you get an immediate sense of who these characters are when you first sort of get introduced to them. And I think maybe because a lot of the enemy that I watched started out as Monga and his Maga, um, the mangaka or the, the Mongo writers they really had to, um, especially when you don't have that many pages, you have to get people hooked very quickly into the characters. And so I think I was really inspired by that. And that's kind of what taught me how to, you know, create characters that you get a sense of who they are immediately. And then over time, you start to sort of peel the, the layers back and you get a sense of, you know, who they are in a deeper sense. Um, whether they're the heroes or whether they're the love interests, or whether the, the villains, because you got to grab people immediately.

Speaker 2: 28:13

Okay. So we should all watch more anime and read more manga

Speaker 3: 28:20

Writer. There's, there's something about that, you know, and it's funny because you know, a lot of people I get it's like when we talked about young adult novels and how sometimes we don't take it seriously. And there's like, all these articles about like, oh, you have adult novels, blah, blah, blah. People are trashing it. And I also have gone through that when it comes to Mazda and it made video games and it's like, no, there are so many great mediums of storytelling, so many phenomenal mediums, like nobody can look and ceiling ones and say that wasn't a good story. If that's the case, then why do millions of people around the world love it? You know? And it's just, there are, there are lessons that you can take from how these different mediums get a story across. And, and that's the challenge, I think, as a writer to try and take lessons from obviously from books, since you're writing books, but also from different mediums to see, you know, okay, how could this improve my craft? How can even seeing how, um, a really cool fight scene in an Adam Mayer video game, how can that sort of increase my ability to visualize and block a fight scene?

Speaker 2: 29:38

No, that's a great point. And we do, we are like little, you know, taking information and, you know, from all sources in our life. And I, I feel like the more you can fill yourself with other ideas and art and mediums and cultures, experiences, all the things, you know, it's all going to feed into, uh, something that you can create with now. Yeah. Okay. So kind of going back, I love this idea of kind of, um, starting with maybe a simple archetype and being like, we're just going to nail that right in, right from the beginning, you meet this character, this is their archetype, and then kind of digging in and bringing them, fleshing them out more fully as you go. How much are you thinking when you're writing and you're okay. Let's say you're writing, you're about to introduce a new character. How much do you know about this character to start and what do you do if you're not really sure what sort of archetype they're at yet?

Speaker 3: 30:50

Well, I think I try to have a good understanding of the characters, but not too much. And it really depends, you know, there are some writers who are more character driven, uh, and so they want to know everything about their characters before they even start writing a story. So they'll have the sense of who the characters are to the extent that they can put that character in any book, in any story's situation and know how those characters will react. And so through that, the writer will kind of feel out a story just by the interactions of these characters. For me, I'm very plot driven. So I have a sense of the plot that I want to write. So because of that, I don't necessarily want to know everything about, or need to know everything about the characters. So I'll start with the plot. I have a sense of where I want to go. I'll make sure that the absolute main character and the main villain I know inside and out, and when it comes to some of the other characters I'll know them well enough that they can start interacting with the main characters, the main villains, but because I don't know them a hundred percent, they still have room to surprise me. They still have room to kind of tell me who they are as I'm writing out the story. So there may be things within the plot that change, or they may be plot holes that get filled, or I may take a turn in the, in the outline in story, um, because I've now learned something about one of the characters that has made me think, you know, this would probably not go in that direction. They probably go in another direction. So I kind of don't want to know absolutely everything about a character right away. It's good to know, um, the basics and the foundation, but it's also good to let the character surprise you as you're writing out the plot and to be flexible with the plot as well.

Speaker 2: 33:04

How often do you find yourself doing like a total 180 with a character? Like, does that ever happen to you where, like, let's say, um, I'll take an example from the book. Like Adam is a character that we meet right off the bat, and he's very serious for the most part. Was there ever and not with him specifically, but is there ever a character where you like first start writing and you think, you know, oh, okay. This person, I see them, they're going to be just happy-go-lucky and optimistic and cheerful and bright all the time. And then halfway through the draft, you're like, mm, no, scrap it all. We're going to go back. And they're like, somebody totally different than I thought they were going to be.

Speaker 3: 33:45

I would say that Adam is probably the closest character to that. Um, he wasn't happy go lucky in the first draft, but I definitely made him deadlier in the, the, um, subsequent draft. And I think it was not really about him going 180, but it was more about, I guess, understanding more and at a deeper level of sort of the pain that he's been through and how that would inform some of the messed up things that he does and the messed up ways that he thinks. And so that ended up sort of allowing me to create more scenes. It allowed me to create, um, more interactions between him and Iris and sort of, I was able to go deeper into the rabbit hole with that character, I think because I have a good enough sense of the characters who they are. It's several like a complete 180, but it's mostly just about the subsequent drafts, refining the characters and understanding a little bit more about them each time I revise. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:58

Yeah. If you can't tell, I'm like, totally just trying to dig into your brain. Cause I admire how you did your character so much that even as I was reading, I was like, I need to learn from this. I can be better. Oh my

Speaker 3: 35:10

Gosh. I mean, I never considered myself as somebody to learn from, but that's really, I mean, it's hard, it's hard to evaluate your own writing and, but I I'm really happy. I mean, I remember reading your novels. I geeked out about your novels before we started recording, but I mean, I just love, um, reading your books, uh, the lunar Chronicles and really stories for me, they come alive because of the characters. So even though I'm a plot driven type of character, I understand just how important it is to have characters that people can remember because you know, those are the characters that people can kind of become obsessed with, you know, and people ship characters all the time, even if they love the plot, you know, they'll sort of insert themselves into characters. So I always try and pay attention to that.

Speaker 2: 36:12

Yeah, no, you're right. And I am also consider myself more of a plot-driven writer. Um, but I also know both as a writer and a reader, like you can have the most exciting, intense plot of all time, but if nobody cares about your characters, the nobody cares. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Last kind of craft question before we move into our bonus round, uh, there is a, a competition in this book, um, this series of challenges that the characters have to go through, um, along with other superpowered individuals, how did you go about creating like the specifics of the game? Um, and what would the challenges be, uh, in a way that felt new and really interesting and unique? Um, yeah, I guess that that's, that's the question.

Speaker 3: 37:11

Okay. No, I mean, it was actually kind of tough because, you know, I didn't want to be compared to other kind of tournament books, books that have tournaments in them. And at the same time I knew that I wanted it to be action packed. I wanted it to force a lot of interactions between the characters, uh, interactions that would allow for rivalries, um, and alliances and various things like that. Um, challenges that were more cerebral, I guess, and then challenges that were more physical. And I think for me, it was about setting boundaries and rules because I figured, okay, these people need enlightenment committee. They would also set boundaries and rules. So what kinds of boundaries would they create? What kind of rules would these superpower people be given? How would they be, um, how would they be monitored? You know, especially in the 19th century, um, if this is a tournament, there has to be an audience, but then where did the tournaments take place and how are they sort of observed in the way that the ravenous, um, macabre audience can kind of get their bills? All of those things I kind of have to think about in terms of molding each, each round of the tournament. And, um, it went from being like three rounds of the tournament to, but inevitably I was like, okay, three is, is the number that makes most sense, you know, especially when you're thinking about acts. And, um, I knew that I wanted it to be bloody. I want it to force a lot of fights. So, and I also wanted it to, um, force the characters around the city just so that the readers can feel immersed in, in London. Right. And sort of what was going on. And, um, so I can use some of my research as well. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:26

Call it there. Must've been a ton of research in this book.

Speaker 3: 39:30

Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of research, not just in terms of like how life was in London, but also, you know, how life would be for people of different races and different classes. Um, that is a little bit tougher because oftentimes, you know, there's not as much, you know, there's not a lot of history, I think in terms of, for example, like how did you know enough people in you with people from Labrador? How would they have gotten to Europe in the 19th century? You know, um, what might somebody, if you know, there's a character, who's a nook in, um, the book named Jacob now seeking pay, how would he have gotten to the, um, to London in the 19th century? And that took a lot of research. And I, I ended up watching like a documentary and national geographic and I was like, okay, yeah, I'm going to base this character story off of the, this man's story of how kind of this tragic is actually a very tragic story of how this, um, this guy and a group of people from Labrador came over to Europe and they were kind of in this, um, human zoo. And they were kind of, um, taken around Europe and so on. But, you know, the research took me from watching a lot of documentaries to reading a lot of books. I had to really search for those, those historical books. How did black people live in Europe? And I learned a lot, I learned a whole lot. And because of that, I really wanted to put that in a book. And I also wanted to sort of let others see what I've researched. And at the same time I wanted them to feel immersed in two different kinds of lending. You know, there's the London of the 19th century that I think rich privileged people would have experienced and that's kind of the enlightenment committee and kind of see their side of things. And then you see, you know, the impoverished and you see, you know, people who are of different races and they live in a very different London. So I really wanted, um, the reader to get that sense, not just through the every day happenings of the story, but also through the, um, the tournament and the rounds that they had to go through.

Speaker 2: 42:09

Yeah. Yeah. And I always really appreciate when a piece of historical fiction can blur that line between fiction and reality. Um, and you know, there were a number of times because obviously this is a, a fantasy book. There's people with super powers, there's this, you know, cult of rich people who believe the world is ending. Like there's a lot of fantasy involved. Um, but there were also a lot of times in reading it when I had to pause and go and look something up on my phone, like what, what is, is this a real thing that she's referencing? Um, and more often than not, it was. And I just appreciate that. Not only because it makes me feel like I'm learning something now, um, but then it does just makes everything therefore seem so realistic like that, that suspension of disbelief is so strong. Um, because it is so, uh, just built into a rural that did actually exist at one time.

Speaker 3: 43:17

Yeah. That's the beauty of writing historical fantasy is that you can kind of, you know, you take what is already real and what's happened and you can put all these supernatural elements in it at the same time, you get to sort of teach people in a way, like, obviously I'm not trying to be didactic, but you can kind of show people, you know, there are certain things that did happen in London at the time, you know, like human zoos were a thing and you know, certain figures did exist. And maybe it's one of those things that I hope that people who are into history, they can read it a few times. And as they learn more about history, if they read the book again, a name might pop out and they might go, oh, that's a real person.

Speaker 2: 44:11

Yeah, no. And it's, I mean, the human zoo is a perfect example of something that you read and it seems like it should be fiction. Like it's so horrifying the idea of it. And then to learn that it is based in truth. And I actually was familiar already with the idea of human zoos and like the, the world's fairs, et cetera. Um, but I know a lot of readers will read that and be like, this can't possibly have actually happened. Um, but then it's, you know, confronting actually history.

Speaker 3: 44:45

Okay. It's a good way. Reading books is a good way to learn about history. It doesn't always have to be, you know, non-fiction um, yeah.

Speaker 2: 44:57

And also be entertained by a tournament to the death.

Speaker 3: 45:01

Yes. At the end of the day, it's also fun. It's supposed to be a fun fantasy as well. So, and it definitely

Speaker 2: 45:07

Is. And I kind of hate to end on that question because now it sounds like so depressing. It's not, it's a super action packed, exciting story filled with super lovable characters.

Speaker 3: 45:19

I mean, we can talk about the fun stuff as well. Are we doing a lightning round?

Speaker 2: 45:25

The lightning round is next to see if you have a chance to talk about more fun things. Okay. Here we go. Tea or coffee?

Speaker 3: 45:36

Um, T are they in London? So I'm sorry, what? It's lending 19th century London. So T T all the way plotter or pantser plotter

Speaker 2: 45:51

Music or silence.

Speaker 3: 45:53

Oh, well I'm writing. Oh, silence. Okay.

Speaker 2: 45:57

PT, Barnum, or Cirque de Solei.

Speaker 3: 46:00

Oh, we'll do PT Barnum it, because again, 19th century London, we have to, um, pay homage to part of and Bailey. Definitely.

Speaker 2: 46:12

What is your favorite writing? Snack

Speaker 3: 46:15

Chips. Oh, chips.

Speaker 2: 46:20

He seems like you're questioning that decision

Speaker 3: 46:22

Gives me pimple. I know so bad, but it's so good.

Speaker 2: 46:29

If the bones of ruined had a theme song, what would it be?

Speaker 3: 46:33

Oh my God. I know this. I should know. There's an actual song and I can't find it. Oh my God. I hate that. It's a J song though. That's all I'll say is a J pop song. It would totally be J-pop

Speaker 2: 46:50

But that's surprises me. I'm not sure. I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 3: 46:58

So weird for me. Like in my head, there was a song that I was listening to and it was so awesome. And it really like, maybe it was a Tata Hakaru song, but it, um, it really inspired me to write the book, but if other people listen to it, they'd be like, huh?

Speaker 2: 47:19

Yeah. It's so funny. How that happens. What is your favorite way to celebrate an accomplishment?

Speaker 3: 47:28

Cupcakes?

Speaker 2: 47:30

What book makes you happy?

Speaker 3: 47:34

Oh, that's a good one. Um, anything from the procedure action series?

Speaker 2: 47:40

What are you working on next?

Speaker 3: 47:43

But two of the bones are fluent and also a middle grade.

Speaker 2: 47:48

Ooh. Exciting. Would that be your first middle grade?

Speaker 3: 47:53

Um, yes. Hopefully if it gets old, right. I'm always hoping to kind of do mitigate because I love, I love middle grade books so much, and I really like, I have so many ideas and it's just a matter of finding the time in between writing young adult.

Speaker 2: 48:13

I know that feeling well, lastly, where can people find you?

Speaker 3: 48:20

People can find me, um, at my website, Sarah raleigh.com. That's w w w dot S a R a H R a U G H L E y.com. And from there you can find my socials. I'm mostly on Instagram and Twitter and the handles the same from my Instagram and Twitter at underscore Raleigh.

Speaker 2: 48:50

Awesome. Sarah, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for having

Speaker 3: 48:54

Me, everybody finally, in our Chronicles.

Speaker 2: 48:59

Thank you. But they should definitely go by the bones of ruined. Oh yeah. Yes. Also by also by the book is coming out tomorrow. I definitely encourage you to pick it up. Uh, if you can support your local indie bookstore, that would be awesome. If you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. Next week, I am very excited to talk to Farrah NAS, Rishi, about her new contemporary romance. It all comes back to you. So I hope you will check it out. If you're enjoying this conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.

Speaker 1: 49:58

[inaudible].