The Happy Writer with Marissa Meyer
Writing Complex Character Relationships with Farah Naz Rishi - It All Comes Back to You
Marissa chats with Farah Naz Rishi about her new contemporary romance - IT ALL COMES BACK TO YOU - as well as writing sibling dynamics and relationships that are as complex and interesting as real-world families; the roles that fate and coincidence can play in a romantic storyline; a few interesting narration techniques that act like different camera lenses through which to view the story and characters; how we tend to be inspired by issues that concern us in the real-world, and how we can use them to add dimension to our stories, no matter what genre we're writing in; why "read more poetry!" has been on Marissa's to-do list for ages; and Farah's unconventional origin story involving law school and video games.
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Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
Marissa chats with Farah Naz Rishi about her new contemporary romance - IT ALL COMES BACK TO YOU - as well as writing sibling dynamics and relationships that are as complex and interesting as real-world families; the roles that fate and coincidence can play in a romantic storyline; a few interesting narration techniques that act like different camera lenses through which to view the story and characters; how we tend to be inspired by issues that concern us in the real-world, and how we can use them to add dimension to our stories, no matter what genre we're writing in; why "read more poetry!" has been on Marissa's to-do list for ages; and Farah's unconventional origin story involving law school and video games.
The Happy Writer at Bookshop.org
Purchasing your books through our webstore at Bookshop.org supports independent bookstores.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books to enjoy and tell authors, find more joy in their writing. I am your host. Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. I am very happy to be recording, uh, not from my home in Tacoma this week, but we are in Shalane over in Eastern Washington. We try to come over here a few times a year. We've got some extended family in the area, and so I'm always happy to be here. It's sunny and the lake is beautiful. And I got to spend yesterday at a winery reading the book that we're going to be talking about today. So it has just been a lovely trip. Um, plus we had a little bit of excitement this morning, um, because we are also here with my in-laws who have a dog. And this morning the dog found a rattlesnake moving across our driveway, uh, which I don't know if that makes me happy necessarily because they totally freaked me out, but I am happy that nobody got bitten by the rattlesnake. Uh, and it just moseyed along its Merry way. And of course, now we all get to talk about the rattlesnake because I did not come from a place that had things that could kill you when I was growing up. And so now seeing something like that, I just feel like I'm living life on the edge of my life is so dangerous. All of a sudden. Um, and of course I am so happy to be talking to today's guests and another life. She worked stints as a lawyer, a video game journalist and an editorial assistant. Now she is both a voice actor and the author of the white, a novel. I hope you get this message, her newest. Why a it all comes back to you comes out tomorrow on September 14th, please. Welcome Farah NAZA Rishi. Hello? Hello. Welcome to the show. How are you? Good. Good.
Speaker 3:Especially since there are no rattlesnakes here.
Speaker 2:Where are you from Philly. Okay. Yes. Are there things that could kill you? Do you have like black widow spiders or anything? Um, we have great,
Speaker 3:Um, that, and I think that's the most dangerous creature that Philadelphia has. I don't know what that is. Oh gosh. Um, so I'm about to blow your mind. I'm so
Speaker 2:Excited.
Speaker 3:Okay. So, um, the, uh, mascot of the Philadelphia flyers is this creature named gritty. And if you, if you look him up, he's the most terrifying thing I've ever seen, but he's kind of like a, a Philadelphia mascot period. Like first he was just for the Phillies and then he just kinda became the symbol of everything that is Philadelphia distilled into one terrifyingly orange creature. Um, and he's, uh, apparently known to just commit acts of chaos. Like he'll just kind and run around in the street and like do crazy stuff. And, um, I don't know. He's just, um, I think he's chased down little kids on the ice for it's like, there's like a whole thing, um, where you can watch all these videos of just this, this weird looking creature. It doesn't look like I can't even describe it. I'm like trying to describe it. There's no way to describe what gritty is. I don't think it's, you can't compare it to anything, but, um, the, the thing that you should should know about gritty is that, um, he is googly eyes. So every time he like moves his head around, it's just, all of his eyes are just moving every it's terrifying, all
Speaker 2:Multiple eyes.
Speaker 3:Well, he has the two, but they just keep bouncing around. So then you're like, I don't even know where to look. It's just,
Speaker 2:Okay. I will look up a picture that to be like on tryout day, when they're hiring a new person to fill out the gritty mascot, that's gotta be a long line. I bet there's a job. That's very in demand.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean, no one has any idea. Who's actually in the suit and, and that's why we're all kind of convinced. Like there is no one in the suit is pretty highly, highly recommend. If you do not know Greta, you should, you should check them out a national treasure.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's right. That's awesome. I will say that as I was mentioning like that in Tacoma where I'm from, there's nothing that could kill you. Like, I feel like I should point out Western Washington does have bears and I feel like, I guess they could probably, I mean, obviously they can kill you, but I've never seen it there. It's just one
Speaker 3:Of those things bears, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that's probably black bears probably. Um, yeah. And we have like mountain lions, but like, I don't know anybody who's actually ever seen one. Like you have to go hiking for that and yeah. Who does that
Speaker 3:Outside? God. No, I
Speaker 2:Know. Um, the first thing that I want to ask you before we get to talking about your new book is I want to know about your author origin story, kind of whatever that means to you. What is your origin story?
Speaker 3:Sure. Um, mine is a very, very like non traditional one. So I didn't know that I wanted to be a writer. It was not something that I'd ever taken seriously. I came from like a, a family that was pretty adamant about me becoming like a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer, which is usually the case in like Asian families. Um, so I kind of had that expectation on me. And so writing was just kind of like a thing that I did on the side and kind of dabbled in and would be like, oh, wouldn't it be nice in another world if I could do that. But like, hell no, there's, there's not even an option. So we're not even gonna entertain the idea. Um, so I, uh, did a little bit of it in high school cause it was like, I used it as an excuse, you know, club it like I have to do like some sort of writing, um, club or something like that just to like bolster the college entrance stuff. And so my friends were like, okay, that's fine. Yeah. As long as you focus on like, you know, whatever, if you were going to med school and then you have to focus on that, if you're going to lost weight to focus on that, eventually I decided on a law school and then hated it every second of it.
Speaker 2:I know first person that I've heard this, it seemed like such a great plan and then turns out
Speaker 3:So many, especially, I feel like it's a lot of romance writers to have a background in law. And I find that so fascinating, but um, because law school is just so unromantic and we're just like, oh my God, what was I thinking? This is horrible. Yeah. So, uh, halfway through, I was like, I don't know if I can spend the rest of my life doing this. And I was doing environmental law too, which meant that like my job would essentially be begging, you know, companies not to pollute our water and stuff to no avail. And so I was like, I feel like this is going to make my depression 10 times worse. So I don't know how I want to continue this. And then, um, my dad got really sick and so that was kind of like this huge wake up call that, oh my God, life is really, really short. And I don't know if I want to spend it, you know, doing a job that I know is just either going to make me sad or just like, I don't know, not be excited anymore. So I decided, you know, what, what makes me happy? And it was just kind of one of those reflective periods where I was trying all these different things and trying to find what actually made me happy. And then I started playing a video game, um, called mass effect, which is like this big sweeping Saifai space opera. And I was like, man, stories, stories really do have the power to make you feel again. And I want to, I want to do that. So, uh, in the back of the lecture hall, um, this was like my last year of law school. I remember just like typing out fan fiction. And I remember people coming up to me like around finals and they were like, Farah, I know you take really, really good notes. I see the way that you're taking on your computer all the time, like share those notes. And I'm just like, no way[inaudible]. I was like, please keep thinking that about me, but it is a lie. I haven't written many notes. Um, so I finished a graduate for the skin of my teeth. And then after that I was like, well, uh, I have to stay home, take care of my dad. And so I may as well just keep writing. So then that's what I kept doing. And then I just couldn't stop. And then my parents were like, Hey, when you remember like that degree that you got, like, are you ever gonna like do something with that? And I was like, no, and that's when finally, thank God I got the deal for, I hope you get this message. And then after that I was like, well, I'm set. We're good. Don't have to worry about it anymore. Right,
Speaker 2:Right. It's it's a legit thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Thank God. Thank God.
Speaker 2:Well, and I love that because there are a couple of characters in your new book. It all comes back to that are lawyers or have some background in law. Like how much do you think that you could have written those characters or, or what do you think that getting your law degree influenced those characters?
Speaker 3:Oh, definitely. And I don't know. I feel like it's just part of the south Asian experience. Like most kids I know, tend to have had to deal with that kind of pressure to pick something like higher education, like, you know, something like that, medicine or law. So, um, I think that just felt like a natural part of the story, but of course, yeah. I think when, you know, having that background definitely gave me the confidence to be able to write characters like that because otherwise I'm not sure I would, maybe I'd be able to, I mean, research is a thing that we can all do and we can write about experiences that are different than ours, but it definitely gave me like a certain kind of authenticity and confidence in myself to, to write it. And I feel like that has kind of tended to be a thing that keeps coming up the, the higher education that's pushed on these kids who might have different paths that they want to go after instead.
Speaker 2:Right. Right. And I also think just like in general life experiences, plant little seeds in our imagination, you know? So it's like, you don't know. Yeah. You didn't become a lawyer, but it grew in your imagination into something different.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, every life experience is something that we can just mind from anyway. So there's people I met in law school that I'm like, dang, that would make an excellent character in a book.
Speaker 2:For sure. We, I like the people in my world. Like some day
Speaker 3:We absolute thieves. Like that's, that's a good writer. We're just like, you know how like crows will pick up little sparkly objects that they find and then bring it back to their nest. I feel like that's what we do. We find sparkly objects and people. And then we're like, oh, we might not use this right now, but maybe later we'll just put this in our nest.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what we do. That is a perfect analogy for what we do. Okay. On that note, would you please tell listeners about your new book coming out tomorrow? It all comes back to you.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Sure. So, um, it all comes back to you is the story of Gideon who has gone through, oh my gosh. A heck of a time lately. She is recovering from the recent passing of her mother. And, um, recovering from the fact that her, her family has kind of been split apart. Like her dad is a chronic over worker and her sister has been, uh, finishing up law school in New York. So she's kind of been holding the Fort on her own and she's really looking forward to her sister finally graduating and then coming back home. So that way they can live together. Um, when she, uh, starts going to college, um, in Philly only to find out that her sister has decided to change plans and is getting married to someone that she barely knows and is possibly moving across the country with him. So Gideon's obviously devastated, but she's even more devastated when she finds out that the guy who was basically stealing her sister away happens to be the older brother of the ex that ghosted her three years ago. So, um, then we go back to Dean who, um, is said X, and he's really excited about this, um, marriage. Um, but he's also a little bit nervous cause he's like, oh God, I, I did not leave. Get in on a good note. So this is going to be bad. And, um, hi-jinks and Sue, um, get an, obviously wants to, uh, sabotage the wedding as much as she can Dean meanwhile, wants to protect this wedding and does whatever you can to fight her back. And, um, it's just them butting heads throughout the whole way, while at the same time kind of suppressing those past feelings good and bad, um, that have been just kind of sitting locked in the closet for the past three years. So yeah, it's a Bali bait, Bollywood wedding, a lot of family drama, a lot of hate. Um, and, uh, yeah, they also are playing video games together. So we've also got that aspect of, um, uh, them kind of communicating, not even knowing that they've been communicating this whole time, um, on a, on a video game anonymously.
Speaker 2:Yes. So it is it's going, is chaos and largely because Kirin is, is doing, it was trying to sabotage this wedding and this poor couple. Yeah. But you can understand her motivations. Um, and so it it's a lot of fun. Um, and I, I mentioned before we started the recording, I haven't finished reading it yet. I have, um, I'm almost to the end. And so I haven't gotten to the big romantic happy ending that I could of course, and hoping slash assuming is coming. Um, but where I am in the book, it is not looking good. I'm sorry. Can't wait to finish it tonight and hopefully, hopefully get a kiss maybe, but don't tell me don't spoil anything. Got it. Lips sealed. Um, just, they're gonna have to work very
Speaker 3:Hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, yeah, they've got a lot to overcome. Um, and you're, you're not pulling any punches with these characters and I feel like, um, they're kind of just like digging their holes deeper and deeper. So I want to talk about, you know, we have a, it is a hate to love story. We'll hate to, I assume, love story. Um, talk to me about just kind of crafting that element of the romance, um, because you have done a great job of giving these two characters a past, um, that is kind of now feeding into everything that they're going through and all of these prejudices that they have against each other. Um, and it has created a lot of just really juicy tension. So just talk to me about writing kind of the hate to love aspect of this book.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, I mean, I love, hate to love. It's just, it's so good because there's such a fine line between hate and love. And when you have that, like past too, I feel like the, there's almost a seductiveness that comes with that feeling of nostalgia. Right. It's so easy to fall back into old patterns. And so the, the feeling of the forbidden ex coming back into your life, um, and the, the question of what if like what if we end up having that spark again, or, you know, what, if he's exactly what I thought he was and it's horrible, you know, I, I love just those kinds of questions. And I think that romance is something really, really interesting to explore. So that was kind of something that I always wanted to try working with, but the, the hate to love thing, it comes in so many different forms. And so one other question that had been kind of lingering in my head was, um, like trauma, like what do we, what do we do when, you know, we have such a big, horrible thing that happened in our past, but we never really properly dealt with it and how that will bleed into like the present, even though we thought we've, we've kind of sufficiently locked it away for. Good. Um, and what if that trauma also happens to take the form of a really hot guy? I don't know. Um, yeah, I just, I really, I really was kind of playing with those kinds of questions. Um, and that's kind of how Dean and can kind of just like pop into my head one day. Um, and you know, how it is like once characters pop into your head, it's kind of like they demand, they rattle the cage and they're just like, you got to tell the story, you got to tell the stories, that's kind of what happened here.
Speaker 2:So when they popped into your head, as you say, how much of their story came along with that versus how much did you have to uncover?
Speaker 3:Um, it's funny, Dean was by far the most fully realized when he popped into my head, he was just kind of ready to go, which somehow feels fitting for him.
Speaker 2:See,
Speaker 3:I just, I always loved the idea of the charming character, like the person who, um, you know, the princess and the frog, right? Like Nevine, for example, like clearly was a, um, like not a womanizer, but he, you know, flirted a lot and may or may not have had lots of relationships with other women, casual things and whatnot, and didn't really know how to love, but clearly he's like hiding all of these insecurity, same with, um, Flynn from tangled. Um, very much like trying to compensate for a much darker, like pass that they're trying to hide from, I guess, um, and to hide that kind of put on this persona of being flirty and cool, but we all know that it's all fake.
Speaker 2:That's one of my favorite tropes, by the way, one of my favorite, uh, uh, archetypes.
Speaker 3:Yes. The, the chronic flirter who actually is like really deep and broken. Actually,
Speaker 2:He has a heart of gold, you know, but it has all of these, uh, defense mechanisms in place trying to protect themselves. Yeah. I love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And so I loved him so much as a character. Um, that idea, I guess, of him actually feeling super, super guilty, um, you know, over his brother and stuff, for reasons we won't get into, but I know because
Speaker 2:There's a huge, I'm just going to say, there's like this big mystery in the book and I don't know what the Ruby, I haven't gotten to the reveal part yet to see what exactly happened, this big dramatic thing in the past. And it's driving me bonkers, like what, what happened? Um, you do a great job of kind of stretching that out and giving us tiny bits of information over the course of the plot also,
Speaker 3:God. Yeah. So he, you know, he clearly has something that he's hiding and, and we all want to know what it is. So, um, having a character like that B seems so much of as a villain by Gideon. I think that was, that was the tricky part. So getting, I really had to work with and be like, well, why would she like look at this character who is so obviously deeply hurt and insecure? Why would she view him as this horrible person? So that was kind of what I had to tease out a little bit more with her and to give her good reason to treat him like a villain. Yeah.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I also really love is that we kind of are getting a couple different love stories in this book. Um, obviously we've got the central story, um, between Dean and Karen. Uh, but then we also got the brother and sister who are newly engaged, even though they haven't known each other for very long. And so I very much feel like we're also kind of getting to a ride shotgun along in their romance story and see their feelings develop. And there's a question mark to see if they're going to get their happy ending to, was that kind of intentional? Like how invested were you in this kind of other side romance?
Speaker 3:It kind of just happened. It, they, I really started to fall in love with Amira as a character. I think she's just so interesting and compelling and, and, you know, we first meet her and she's kind of treated like, I think Karen calls her a Disney princess. She kind of has hearts in her eyes all the time. She's always so happy and chill and yet she's a lawyer, you know? Um, but, uh, yeah, no, I think, I think her story and Faisal story started to kind of take a shape of, of their own. And it's just an interesting story too. Like what, I don't know, I love stories of arranged marriages, basically that happened so perfectly. And I mean, there's, isn't exactly an arranged marriage by any means, but it just, they clearly knew right away that they were meant to be together like three months. Right. So that's very short. Um, yeah. So it just, it just kind of happened. And that's why I love writing so much is because things will just happen and you didn't even plan for it. And it's like happy accidents, right? Yes. But of course that is dangerous to cause things like that happen. And then you're like, oh crap. Like, I feel like I can write a whole another book about those skills.[inaudible] So, um, that's, that's a tricky part, but yeah, no, they were a happy accident.
Speaker 2:I, I love
Speaker 3:Amira. I think she is the best foil for curing, um, who is very like bristly and defensive and angry so often. Um, whereas a mirror, like you say, she's just very cheerful, very willing to give people the benefit of the doubt. And they're very opposite in a lot of ways. Um, and same with Dean and Feisal his brother like deem again, this he's this charmer, you know, he's pretty outgoing. Everybody loves him. Uh, his brother is more reserved and very kind of socially awkward. And so in both pairings, you've just got these great foils. Um, and it just, it made me kind of think about character building, but like specifically within families and like going about creating these, these storylines and these histories within these separate families I thought was, was really well done. And I don't know, I don't really have a question. Talk to me about building your family relationships in these characters. Yeah. I mean, we model what we write, I think after, after what we know, at least when we're first starting out. So that's kinda what I did, um, with these characters when I thought about siblings, cause I, I had a younger brother and his whole, his whole thing was that he was the, the very reserved kind of, uh, serious, uh, he Feisal and him are very similar. We'll just say, and I was the older sister and I was there, uh, at least with him, I feel like it'd be extremely bubbly and outgoing and almost annoyingly happy and stuff like that. And so that, that dynamic, the, you know, how can these two people who were basically raised under the same roof for so many years by the same parents, like the same way, be so completely different. And I find that fascinating. And then, um, when he'd be out with his friends, he'd be totally outgoing and happy go lucky. And then when I'm with my friends, I tend to be the more prickly one. Who's like you have different, you have different personas, I guess, depending on where you are, like booth and family, it's like, you're one person. Then when you're outside of family, you can be a totally different person. So that was kind of one of the, the, the facets of these characters that I wanted to explore to that like with Gideon and Amir, I think Gideon's a lot softer when she's with her sister. Like she's a lot, um, when she's with Amir, I feel like she's a lot calmer. She's not so neurotic. Um, Amira balances her out, but as soon as she's like not with Amira, um, then we start to see her more prickly aside and her more lonely side. I think that comes out in horrible ways sometimes. Um, so yeah, I think that definitely helped me with understanding like, oh wait, no, it's not. When we want to be careful with building one dimensional characters, like those are the things that I have to think about how a character acts with one person versus another.
Speaker 2:No, definitely. And I also think that with both of these protagonists, getting to see how they relate to their sibling siblings, um, they, it makes them so relatable. Uh, because in both cases we can see how they are working so hard to ensure the happiness of this person that they love, even though, of course, between the two of them, they have completely opposite ideas of what needs to happen to ensure this future happiness. Um, but in both cases, it just, you can kind of see into their heart and see what's really driving them. And it all comes back to love, which is of course really powerful.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. I think also when I was thinking about just a sibling relationships too, I was like, you know, the reason why some of us will get so protective of our siblings is because in a way we view them as extensions of ourselves. So get into like obsession with protecting her sister. I think also stems from the fact that she's been hurt for so long. Um, that the idea of protecting Amira in her mind is not dissimilar from protecting herself when she couldn't
Speaker 2:These years. Yeah. So I want to talk about fate and destiny and coincidence and the universe, um, because it's subtle, I would say in the book, but to me, and maybe I'm reading into this, I don't know. Um, but to me there's this very definite line of the universe kind of playing a part in, uh, in both of these relationships and love stories. Um, and I, and then of course we have it right there in the title. It all comes back to you, which to me feels like this perfect encapsulation of these two characters, like everything in their life just kind of keeps bringing them back together. Um, so for you, like how much were you thinking about destiny and fate? Does, did you play along or play around with ideas of more free will? Like just, what are your thoughts on that? As a romance writer?
Speaker 3:I feel like my own faith just kind of shaped it. Like we in Islam, we believe that, um, God kinda already knows everything that's going to happen, but there's also this understanding that there is free will. So, um, God doesn't like control what you're going to do, but he can kind of see the roadmap in which more likely you're going to go down the road for, like, he can kind of see like, okay, well, chances are, they're probably based on their history going to do this and this and this. And generally he's always right. Right. Um, so that, that kind of always plays a role for me, but also just like on a personal level, um, I've always been fascinated by the idea of destiny just because it's such a romance. It just a romantic notion, like, of course, like, you know, we can craft our own futures and all that stuff, but there's, there's something very compelling about the idea. Like two people are actually destined to be together so much so that the world itself wills it to be. Um, yeah, so I've just always been fast actually. It's also, uh, another personal note, like, um, my husband, actually, the only reason why we met was because he just happened to have chickenpox in college. And the only class that was left for him to take was the one that I had just signed up for. And so when I think about like all the coincidences that would have to happen to bring two people together, um, you know, it's just kind of like, dang, like, can I really call it a coincidence? Or was it one of those weird things that the universities have willed? And I feel that way even about some of my closest friends, like man, like how many things had to have happened for us to be together. And then to realize that our souls are just completely on the same level. Like how cool is that? So that's, I think subconsciously I've been working that, that notion into all of my books.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No, I love that. I'm so glad that you told me you're your own personal love story because I, I also feel like in a lot of ways, like a lot of things had to align for the night that my husband and I met and like as a practical person, I like, I questioned things like love at first sight and soulmates at the same time. Like the moment that I laid eyes on my husband, the moment that I met him, I had the most intense feeling of, oh, he's going to be really important to me. Like it was an undeniable, this is a moment in my life that has meaning and it's impossible to deny things like that. And so I love in fiction and especially in romantic fiction when we can kind of play with that and you can kind of see, I don't know how coincidences are aligning to bring this, these people together because it is really romantic. Um, but not in an unbelievable way.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Because it happens as bonkers as it is to recall it every time I, I think about I'm just like, man, that sounds like impossible, but
Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, and then also to kind of switch gears a little bit, because I thought it was interesting when you were talking about your history, getting your law degree, um, that you were looking at environmental law. Um, and then to kind of compare that to, uh, our two lawyer characters, uh, Amira and Faisal who are both kind of working in the, the spectrum of law in different ways. And you're kind of tackling, you're looking at some issues of, of, uh, the juvenile prison and justice system. We're looking at some, um, some drug issue. I don't know what yet, cause I haven't gotten to the big mystery revealed drugs are playing a role somehow in this book. Um, anyway, so you're kind of tackling some bigger real world issues. Um, but of course, all kind of under this guise of this sweet contemporary romance. Uh, talk to me about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Um, I don't know. I, every time I do this, I'm just like, no, I'm going to write like a, a really straightforward, like sweet story. And then I'm like drama. Like I put it, all of this horrible dark stuff. Like God it. I did it again. Um, that's kind of what happened here. Um, and yeah, I mean, I think when it comes to, um, at least with my, with my own path, like when I was doing law, I was like, okay, fine. I'm going to do a lot, but I'm not going to do corporate law. Like I have to do something good that, so when I wake up everyday, I'm like, okay, I'm doing good. And, and with, you know, in the world, otherwise I, I know it's not something I'd want to continue doing. And I think that's kinda what happened here when I was imagining, um, what kind of lawyers, Amir and Viola would be? I'm like, well, obviously they have to be social justice lawyers because otherwise they're not going to be the kind of characters that I'd necessarily would want to root for. Like, I want them to be here doing good things. Um, and so I just kind of had them doing that and then it kind of spiraled into like, okay, well what kind of social justice lawyers? And when I was first conceiving of this idea, you know, we were having a lot of the black lives matter protests and, um, all of these things happening in the style outside my window, literally. Um, and I was like, I really just want these characters to be doing something out in the world that they are at least a mirror and, um, eyes, or at least aware that there's something greater beyond them. Um, and maybe get an indeed haven't really figured that out yet. And that's why they're kind of still stuck in their heads, but at least I want the older characters having realized that and actually doing good. Um, so part of that I think was my own frustration too, is being a writer like, what else, what else can I be doing? And, um, you know, I, I almost feel compelled to have to at least touch on those issues and these books, um, because yeah, I mean, I think it's nice to read books as an escape, but at the same time, I also, um, want to make sure that I'm doing something with the little tiny platform that I have. So even if I can hint at something greater, it just kind of a reminder that there's something more out there that we need to be paying attention to then. Um, I think that's good.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No, and I think it's important to remember that even if you're not writing, you know, serious nonfiction tomes, like there's a lot of power in words, games and stories and an escape. Yes. And fantasy. Um, I know for me, I get asked a lot, you know, about the different, you know, heavier topics that are addressed in some of my books. And I've been asked like, do you feel a pressure to shine light on these various things? And I don't know about you and I'll be curious, but like, for me it doesn't feel like a pressure so much as when you're trying to write a compelling story you're drawn to the, that you find compelling, like the stories that I am interested in telling often end up having a lot to do with real-world issues that I have concerns about, you know? So it kind of just feeds into each other. Do you feel the same? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh absolutely. A good stories. Can't be forced. Right. So like these kinds of issues, I think if you force them in, it's just, it feels you can feel it, it feels fake and the readers can tell too. So yeah, it didn't make sense that we just naturally gravitate to the words, those issues that grab our attention and then we just can't help but write about them. It just comes out naturally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. Um, to kind of switch gears, uh, to get into a little bit of craft talk, because there are some really interesting narration techniques that you use in this book. Um, for starters, we've got two different points of view. We have chapters from both, um, Dean and Kirin's perspectives and you've chosen to do them both in first person. A lot of times, uh, when a writer does that, they'll do third person. I really love that you did first person because I loved being in both of their heads. Um, and then we've also got chapters that are told entirely in text message. And we've got some chapters that are told as like this, this chat room on this video game. And I thought it was all just so interesting. Like it felt like we were getting little windows into all of these various elements of this romance developing because it really does have a lot of different angles to look at their story. What was kind of the catalyst or the inspiration for having all of these different, uh, types of chapters in there.
Speaker 3:I love finding different ways to tell stories and different angles, tell stories. So I get really bored very quickly, every single time I write anything. So like part of me needs to just find other angles to look at a story. So if I'm, um, I did this with, I hope we get this message to like where we had, um, that, that just really, really briefly that story is like three kids who find out that the world is ending in seven days and that the aliens are actually deliberating whether or not earth deserves to be destroyed basically. And so we see that this whole, there's a big, big switch, I think, between these two books. But, uh,
Speaker 2:You see how that would lead to some, like, let's talk about some big weighty issues right now.
Speaker 3:That's what I, that's what I was telling people too. I was like, it's kind of close. Um, but yes, no one, no one buys it, but thank you. Um, but yeah, uh, so there, I had, um, perspectives like interstitials with, um, the aliens themselves and like actually giving us a window into what the aliens were literally discussing while these characters are trying to live their very ordinary lives. Um, so I really like in order to keep myself engaged with the story, you're looking at different ways to tell the same story. It's like, I, it like picking a different camera or lens to look at basically. So, um, that, that's kinda what happened here. I think at some point I was like, wouldn't it be really cool if we could just actually see, cause I can't, I can't have these, uh, chapters that go back into the past because then that'll just be too confusing for everyone. It be confusing writing it. But what if we can just get like little snippets of their past text messages or, um, even though it's tiny window into the chat rooms, um, that are happening right now, so we can see kind of like a window into their, their true selves that they're not showing each other. So that's, that's kind of what happened. And also I really loved, you've got mail. Like you've got such a good, such a good rom com. And so I wanted to just,
Speaker 2:I had not made that connection, but now that you say it, yes, I can totally see the inspiration there.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, yeah. So that that's exactly what these chat rooms are. It's the, it's the you've got mail component.
Speaker 2:Did you have a favorite of these different, um, narrative techniques? Did you have a favorite to write or did you have a favorite of the two characters? Like whose head did you prefer to be in?
Speaker 3:Um, Dean, I find, I found to be a lot easier to jump into just because his, his trauma is so, um, like deep and he tries to bury it so deep. So he doesn't like necessarily deal with it. So his emotions aren't first and foremost, every time he gets like a, a bubble of emotion, he kind of tends to just like shove it back in and then covers it up with some quick Quip or joke or something stupid. Right. That's Dean. So I find that to be a lot easier for me where it's getting, I have really have to like mine, like my own sadness and stuff to, um, for her to deal with because she, she is at least trying to deal with it. Not exactly in a nice way, but she's trying to, so I found hers to be kind of exhausting. Every time I'd finish a chapter, I'd be like, oh God. And you take like a mental health day free. It's all because she's dealing with a lot, um, poor thing. And obviously she's not dealing with it well, and this is what happens when you like bury your traumas for like three years. So yeah, I found, I found Dean to be a little bit easier. Um, but writing the chatrooms was by far like the most fun, like I just, I, to do research, I would like play online games with my, my husband. And we would just kind of like, um, laugh because the kinds of conversations we'd be having, even though he'd be upstairs and I'd be down here in my office and we was, I don't know, the conversation would change. Like, it'd be funnier. We'd be, we wouldn't be talking about like, well, what are we going to eat for dinner tonight? You know, that kind of thing. Um, so yeah, I, I just, I loved the idea of having stories that, um, or like, like, I guess it goes back to that thing I was talking about earlier about the different versions of ourselves. Um, that's why I had fun writing these chats because like, oh, I can show a different person that these characters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I love that. I love this idea of you and husband being in like separate rooms, but having like this could be like a new marriage therapy technique,
Speaker 3:Keep things interesting. So you're not talking about the same things over and over again.
Speaker 2:Did you bake the kids? No. Did you bake the kids breaking that comes up a lot in our house? What about if somebody is listening to this and they're maybe working on a book that is being told from dual perspectives and they've also opted to do it in first person. Um, do you have any tips or advice for some ways to do that and keep the voices unique and separate?
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh. Um, I really struggled with that. It, it, it's always difficult, um, trying to get good advice when it comes to these things, because every single time I try to recall how I did it. I'm just like, I have no idea. I really just prayed to God and did my best. Like, that's pretty much my only craft advice. It's like, pray, I guess
Speaker 2:You've heard it here, folks.
Speaker 3:Um, but honestly what I did was I would read books. I'd, I'd hunt down really good books that were written in first person. And I would just try to internalize like their techniques as much as I possibly could because writing is one of those really annoying things that it's very hard to get good at unless you actually just do it. Yeah. Um, I don't, I don't know. I mean, readers will be the first to tell you if I did it well, but that's, that's really how I did it. I just, I kept writing and I kept rewriting it and I kept reading just constantly seeing how other people did it. Um, even reading third person books is still actually really helpful because, um, what book did I recently read? I think it was the flat share by Bethel leery, which I think is probably one of my favorite romcoms of all time. And the voices there are so different. It's written in third person, but I can tell when I'm in, um, uh, the guy's chapter, I think Leon is his name. I can tell that when I'm in Leon's head versus tippy set, even though it's written in third person and just studying like how that is, um, definitely relying on, um, the different quirks that people have and focusing on those, I think is also really, really helpful. So like everyone speaks differently, right? Everyone has like their little turns of phrases that they say that other people won't say. Um, I obviously there's a pandemic, so it's really hard to do these days, but even if, if you're able to sit in a park and just listen to people talking and just kind of pick up again, it's the whole being the CRO, the for whatever, um, picking up those little turns of phrases. So that way it's like, oh, well, this character would be the one to say that not the other character, that sentence.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. And sometimes you'll hear someone just phrase something, a sentence in a way that you just know, like, I would never say it that way. And I always, you know, when that happens, it always kind of makes me perk up and take notice, like, who is this person? And why, why did they, why did they phrase the sentence that way? I didn't know. That's like a totally nerdy writer thing, but, um, I just, I am fascinated with language and how it changes and how dialects change and where you're from, changes in how you were raised, changes it. And it really does kind of shine a light on how we're all different. And the way that we communicate is so much based on you know, who we are. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Um, Leon in the flat chair doesn't speak in full sentences. I think he's a, he's a nurse. And so that's actually built into his character. He's always tired because he's worked like a zillion shifts. So he's literally so tired that his thought process, it, he speaks in like two word sentences, even like in third person, the sentences will be like, you know, just a couple words and they're never, they'll never be complete. So he'll never say I, or anything like that. It's just fascinating. So that's a more extreme version, but sometimes when you lean into those extremes, it works.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No, definitely. No. And I love your advice of just read and read great books or books that do this one thing really well. Um, because I don't, I have been so inspired by so many books and sometimes you read something that you're like, this is amazing. Why is it amazing? I have to sit here and figure it out like this, this author doing this, made this so good.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. And I know we're all worried about like stealing ideas too. So my other piece of advice would be, um, to read poetry then like, you know, so that way you don't internalize someone else's way of maybe some author has a really unique way of describing something. You're like, okay, well, I don't ever want to use that, but if I read poetry, then that'll be better percolate ideas. Um, so I don't have to like worry about, you know, possibly internalizing someone else's w method of speech or whatever. So I think that's also really, really helpful cause poetry just always breaks the mold anyway, in interesting ways that you could probably use in your writing.
Speaker 2:It does. And I, reading more poetry has been on my writer improvement to do list for like a decade. And I never did.
Speaker 3:It's hard. I mean, first of all, as a writer, you're juggling 1,001 things, but, um, unless the book is right in front of you, the book of poetry or something, it's hard to find the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it is. But I do, I love poetry and I think that poets have just some of the most brilliant minds, the way that they can think to make comparisons and analogies and play with language, it really does encourage you to push your boundaries a little bit more.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. You could always get a poetry book and I, this feels sacrilegious, but like put it in the bathroom.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Those spare moments, just think of all the wasted minutes. All right. On that note, we are going to move on to our happy Raider bonus round. Um, I did a poll on Instagram cause we've kind of gone back and forth between doing like more, I don't know, questions that require a bit more length and information versus like actual lightning round questions. And so I asked people on Instagram last week, which one do you prefer? And it was pretty much 50 50, uh, which is not helpful. Guys. We were going to do a mix, I guess we'll try. Well, I guess I'm going to do 50, 50 lightning versus a little bit more in depth. Um, and we'll see what we think. You're my Guinea pig here. Sounds good. All right. Starting with our lightning round tea or coffee, coffee writing in the morning or writing at night writing in
Speaker 3:The morning. I'm asleep at night
Speaker 2:On the theme of hate to love romances, Mr. Darcy or Han solo,
Speaker 3:Darcy,
Speaker 2:Zell, Zelda, or Mario kart Zelda. If it all comes back to you had a theme song, what would it be?
Speaker 3:Oh God. Um, you know, it's funny. Every time someone either asks me like, what's your favorite song right now? And this is lightning round. So I'm sorry everyone. Anytime anyone asks me what my favorite song or like what my favorite book is. I completely blank out. It's like, I've never read any book or heard any song in my entire freaking life.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I hate it. When people ask me, what are you loving right now? And it's like, ah, am I reading? I'm always reading about six different books at a time. Why can't I think of any of the,
Speaker 3:Um, the top of
Speaker 2:My head. You are welcome to skip any of these by the way. That's a lot.
Speaker 3:No. Um, okay. Uh, no, no. Do a, do a lit, but don't start now.
Speaker 2:How do you celebrate an accomplishment
Speaker 3:Cake? Oh my gosh. It's always cake. There's like a specific peanut butter chocolate cake that I always get. Whenever I've done something good. Go to town. Just go to town on. It
Speaker 2:Sounds amazing. That's good. What is your favorite thing about being a writer?
Speaker 3:Um, crafting stories that resonate with people. I think that's, that's the most, I don't know. That's just the best feeling when someone's like, yeah, I needed this book at this time. When someone says that I'm like, I win, I win life. I'm done.
Speaker 2:What book makes you happy?
Speaker 3:Um, is it cheating? The, say the flashy[inaudible] That one was lost on them made me super, super happy.
Speaker 2:What are you working on next?
Speaker 3:Another bum com
Speaker 2:Can you tell us anything about it?
Speaker 3:Let's see. Um, this is my most personal one yet. And it's a love triangle.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Lastly, where can people find you?
Speaker 3:Uh, Instagram, uh, fairness, mushy or Twitter, I think is also fair. And she, I think I made it simple this time.
Speaker 2:No, for one fifth. Awesome. Fair. Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, thank you so much for having me. This is so fun.
Speaker 2:Readers. Be sure to check out it all comes back to you coming to stores tomorrow. Of course, we always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. Next week, I will be talking to Katelyn. Sangster about her new fantasy novel. She rides the storm. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and happy writer podcast. Until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.
Speaker 1:[inaudible].
