Writing a Multi-POV Fantasy Heist with Caitlin Sangster - She Who Rides the Storm

Marissa chats with Caitlin Sangster, host of the Lit Service Podcast, about her new fantasy novel - SHE WHO RIDES THE STORM - as well as writing that complex, multi-POV fantasy heist novel, and why Caitlin starts with the characters and their motives; determining the "aboutness" of your story, and how to dig deeper into the heart of your book to uncover the themes you most want your readers to come away with; some things to keep in mind when switching from writing young adult to middle grade; how to use action and stakes to get your reader asking the right sorts of questions from the beginning, without the dreaded first-chapter info dump; and some tips for balancing homeschooling and family life with our personal creative pursuits (with as little parent guilt as possible!).

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 0:11

Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you so much for joining me. There are a bunch of things making me happy this week. So it was really hard for me to narrow it down, but I'm going to go with the number one thing, making me happy is that we finally got our house painted. We have been meaning to get our house painted for years. Uh, it's been, this was like really bland kind of tan color. Uh, you know, it was so bored and tired of this boring, boring brown. And so we finally got it painted and now it is a beautiful dark blue, and I have a bright, happy red door and it makes me smile so big every time I come home. So that is making me very happy among other things. Also a little bit of housekeeping. We are in the midst of a, another contest happening on Instagram. Um, this month's theme is book spine poetry, and I have seen some of your entries so far. You guys are so clever. I haven't done one yet, but I'm definitely going to be perusing my bookshelf and trying to come up with something. I don't know, clever, profound, poetic something. We'll see what I can come up with. Um, but they're really great. It's a fun little activity. I might even get the girls to try to do. And we'll see, that is ending September 30th. You can enter by posting your book, Splain poetry and tagging us, uh, that is Instagram at happy writer podcast, and you will be entered to win a free book. Okay, cool. And of course I am so happy to be talking to today's guest. She is the author of the last star burning trilogy and the founder and co-host of the lit service podcast. She has two new books coming out in the near future for middle-grade debut. A Baker's guide to robber pie will be out early 20, 22 and her new, why a fantasy? She who writes the storm comes out this week on September 21st. Please. Welcome Caitlin. Sangster. Hi, thanks for having me. Thank you for coming on. I'm very excited to talk to you today. Congratulations on your new book coming out. Thank you so much. I'm really excited. So we like to start off with our conversations on this podcast by asking about your author origin. So I want to know whether that's, how did you know you wanted to be a writer? How did you get your first book published or whatever your story is? What is your origin?

Speaker 3: 3:10

Well, um, I did not seriously start writing until I had two kids at home. Um,

Speaker 2: 3:17

I feel like I need something more to do with,

Speaker 3: 3:21

Well, I just needed like a creative outlet that wasn't cleaning noodles up off the floor, I guess. Um, I I've always loved reading. I've always been like under a pile of books or hiding under a desk somewhere with a book rather than talking to people. That's probably not a great way to introduce myself, but there you go. Um, and my, I never really thought of books as being written by people because I had never written anything that was that perfect before. I couldn't imagine somebody being able to fit all of that inside their heads. And so I just kinda thought that maybe like book fairies, put them on shelves or something. I didn't ever think of it as something that I could do. And, um, my sister actually got a book deal. She'd been trying to, trying to write books for years and years and years. And I was always kind of like, you know, it's just, it's the book fairs that write those. You're not going to be able to get a publishing deal, but then she did. And I was like, oh, this is something I could do. And, um, I really, I've always loved writing. Like I'd always sit and write little things to myself or like I'd be working and I'd be like, I see something really pretty outside and I'd read a description about it. So I've always loved writing, but I never really applied myself and tried to write a whole book until after that. And, um, I just ran with it. I loved it so much. I informed my husband that I was not going to be home for several hours every evening that he could take care of the noodles on the floor and that I was going to go to the library and I was going to write a book. And, um, it took probably about a year to get that first book finished. And then it took probably another year to get an agent and then another year after that to get a book deal. But, um, and I feel like there's a lot of, like, there was a lot of running very long distances in between all of those touch points that I just mentioned to deal with the stress of like, not quite being able to be successful all at once. Cause I feel like I'm a very like competitive. I just want things to be done right now in patient sort of a person. So when it took a while to like become good at writing that took a while for other people to actually want to read my books, it was hard, but I, um, I loved every second of being able to go through that process. And then finally being able to hold a book in my hands that I had written this just fabulous

Speaker 2: 5:26

You. I mean, that's kind of a, it sounds like a fairly fast process for you though.

Speaker 3: 5:32

I realized now how lucky I was at the time. I was like, this is taking forever, but now I know that that's that's, I, I lucked out getting to publish my first book, so yeah,

Speaker 2: 5:44

Yeah, no, I know what you mean though. Cause I am was the same, um, except I'd been writing kind of my whole life and since I was a kid knew that I wanted to be a writer. Um, but I just felt like as I was through high school and college and trying to write my first book and dreaming about getting published, it did feel like it took for ever. And then like it only in hindsight, do you look back and you're like, yeah, it really didn't take that long.

Speaker 3: 6:12

I didn't have to write 13 books before someone picked it up.

Speaker 2: 6:16

And of course so many people do like that is not an unheard of story at all. No. Yeah. So, I mean, and I also, I love this idea of you having two kids and just thinking, huh, let's start a new hobby. Like very much the opposite. I feel so many people have outlets and have creative pursuits and then start a family and like forget to leave time for themselves. Um, so kudos to you for that and kudos to your husband for supporting you in that. Yeah,

Speaker 3: 6:46

He's great. I couldn't do it without him. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:48

Minus two. We're lucky. What was it like? I mean, cause I know for me having two small kids at home, I try not to feel guilty when they're asking me like, Hey mom, come play this game with me. And I'm like, I can't, I gotta get some work done, but it's impossible to not feel a little bit of guilt at that. How do you deal with that?

Speaker 3: 7:14

Um, I mean like not, well

Speaker 2: 7:17

It's not just me then.

Speaker 3: 7:18

No, I don't think so. I mean, I think people with small children, like anybody who has kids probably deals with a little bit of, I would like some time to myself guilt because kids, if you let them, we'll take every moment of your time, including when you're supposed to be asleep. And they, um, because I started, when I already had children, I feel like I have it easier than some people because people who are used to having set working hours or who have like, uh, an amount of time during the day, they can rely on to just work. I never had that. So I've been, um, I think that it helped me to actually be able to allot my time in a way that made me feel like if I get all of these things done and if I spend all this time with my children and we play these games and we do this, then when I get to this point, I'm okay. If I take an hour for myself to write this book. And then as soon as it became something where I had deadlines and I mean, that adds a certain level of stress to anything. It became a job where I was like, no, I have to do this, which I guess creates more guilt because I'm like, I should be picking the noodles up off the floor right now, but no I'm going to finish this chapter. Um, so I mean, I don't know exactly how to deal with the guilt part of it because I feel like that will always be there. That's just part of being a parent. Um, you will always have like that conflict of what should I be doing versus what can I do that you have to kind of balance because I mean, there's a huge difference between what should I be doing like that? Perfect, beautiful. This is what real parents are like versus, um, what you're actually capable of yourself based on what you have on your plate and how your children are acting and what they need and what they don't need. I'm homeschooling my kids right now. And, um, that has definitely changed the dynamic of when I'm working and when I'm not working. And um, and I believe you're homeschooling as well. Aren't you?

Speaker 2: 9:07

I am, I am. And I'm already feeling like we could just spend the next hour talking about this. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3: 9:13

Yes,

Speaker 2: 9:15

Absolutely. What grade are your kids in?

Speaker 3: 9:18

I have four kids. My oldest is in sixth and then I have, um, one in fourth, one in second and one in kindergarten. Oh

Speaker 2: 9:26

My goodness. And you're homeschooling all four of them. Well, there you go, folks done. How's your first week going?

Speaker 3: 9:37

Well, actually I live in Indiana and we started about a month ago. So it's been, um, it's been fun. I mean, one thing I really love about homeschooling is that your kids get to do all of the fun stuff while also learning. And so you're like, let's go to the beach and talk about geology and have a fun day at the beach and also talk about geology and you get to spend all that time with your kids instead of them being gone at school. I mean, but on the flip side that's like, you know, six hours, I could have been writing a book, so I don't know.

Speaker 2: 10:07

No, it's so true. And I'm the same way. And we just finished our first week of first grade and I love it. I absolutely loved doing the homeschooling thing. I think it is so much fun. I love planning like the crafts and the science projects and like the how fun ways to incorporate writing and fun ways to incorporate math. And I just get such a kick out of it and also feel like this is really great quality time that we're spending together. Um, at the same time, like you say, you've made the choice to not ship them off for hours at a time that you could be using to be really productive. It is your trade off. Yes. Yeah. But we've got this right. We've got,

Speaker 3: 10:55

I feel like there was never a more appropriate moment for that hunger games salute

Speaker 2: 11:01

An interesting,

Speaker 3: 11:05

Yeah, it's interesting, but awesome. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:08

Awesome. Do you, have you been homeschooling your kids the whole time or is it new as a COVID

Speaker 3: 11:13

It's new as of COVID? Um, I think my two older kids, they were, well, we could really talk about homeschooling this whole time. I'll try not to

Speaker 2: 11:21

Let it devolve into the entire episode. Okay.

Speaker 3: 11:25

My two older kids, uh, really struggled with anxiety and so I've always kind of had it in the back of my mind that if things got really difficult, that they could come home and then COVID happened, then I was like, I guess we're coming home.

Speaker 2: 11:35

Oh, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be fascinated to see statistics. Um, because I do think that being forced into it has kind of made a lot of people. Like our family feel like, oh, Hey, this is an option that we never really seriously considered and turns out it feels really right for us. Yeah. Yeah. Any tips for someone who's homeschooling and also trying to make a writing career, what would you tell someone

Speaker 3: 12:02

Learn not to sleep.

Speaker 2: 12:06

It is time consuming. It is definitely time consuming. Yeah. But fun. I don't know. I'm like early, like, you know, the first week went awesome. I've totally got this. But I also know from last year, like every week is not going to go. Awesome. So I'm like trying to Harbor like all of the good joyous feelings right now to buffer me against the bad days, because they're going to be coming. You have,

Speaker 3: 12:36

I feel like whenever you teach somebody something and this is true, probably of anybody, not just children, even though children are much more bullheaded about it and are not afraid to tell you when they're done. I, um, I feel like anytime you teach somebody something new, it usually takes a while. And it's really frustrating for that first while. But then watching somebody actually learn it is such a rewarding experience. It like makes up for it usually.

Speaker 2: 12:59

Right? No, it is really rewarding. I agree. Um, I'm going to throw out, I mean, I know I asked you for a tip, but one thing that I have started doing, um, sometime in kindergarten, I don't remember where their kindergarten, not mine. Obviously. I have tried to find clever ways to overlap teaching with like what research I'm supposed to be doing for my most. Like, what can we, is there a documentary that we can watch that like applies to something I'm supposed to be reading about right now? And, um, or even doing this podcast, like some of the books that we've done with for younger readers and like kids, this is our reading for the next two. Great. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm a big fan of multitasking. All right. Let's talk about your book. That's coming out. Sure. It is. She who rides the storm coming out tomorrow. Would you please tell listeners what is it about?

Speaker 3: 14:01

Yes. Um, it is a wife fantasy heist. Um, it has four main characters, but the story kind of centers around, um, on way who is a healer who spent most of her life, trying to find the man who killed her brother so that she can enact bloody revenge upon him and has built up this, uh, NEC network of contacts and, um, has just spent her whole life trying to find him and has built up this business of stealing things, going into rich people's houses in the city, she's in to try and find traces of him. And, um, just as she has something really difficult happens and very scary people come into town, she's offered a job that seems kind of like it's too good to be true. Like maybe it's a trap and realizes that the man who's in charge of the place she's supposed to steal something from is actually the man she's been hunting this whole time. And she plus all of these, uh, the three other characters in it ended up all trying to find or steal actually this sword that's at the bottom of a tomb and kind of step on each other's toes and, or fight each other to get to it. And it's really, really fun because I got to go through all of my fun. Uh, I love all things to do with like tombs and, and archeology. And it was just so fun to try and put that together. I love the, the booby traps and the, the reliefs and the history learning through stuff and, um, learning through pictures. And the thing I love most about this book is that you have characters who are all coming together, even when they don't want to, to try and steal the same thing at odds with one another. So yeah,

Speaker 2: 15:35

You're totally speaking my language like tombs, archeology, buried treasure booby traps, like you just listed off four of my all time, favorite things and fiction. I'm sorry. So therefore it, so let's start by talking about kind of the aspect of the tomb and these booby traps and kind of the, the heist element of these characters, all trying to steal this sword buried at the bottom of this tomb. What are some strategies you used to try to concoct this plot? Because I know that heists in general can be really difficult, um, just to try to figure out the meeting gritty of how is this going to work? How am I going to challenge the characters and have setbacks and obstacles while they're trying to get this thing? I know it's one of the more difficult plots to kind of navigate. So what were some of your strategies?

Speaker 3: 16:37

Well, I discovered very quickly that people who write heist books are much smarter than I am. I think what happens is that there are lots of drafts and maybe some people are amazing and write it all out in one outline in one draft, but I was, I'm not one of them. Um, I think one of the strategies that I had was I wanted to have, um, the characters be challenged based on the things that scare them the most. Um, so I wanted, uh, like the main character on way is really scared of being left alone. And so I really wanted her to be worried about that through this whole thing. So a lot of the tension that comes is from, you know, other characters, maybe leaving or, um, like setting up the heist itself. I feel like it's really, really easy to throw a wrench into it because all you have to do is like have the wrong person be there at the wrong time or the wrong thing show up at the wrong time. It's really easy to throw a wrench into it, but it's actually really hard to make it come off. Okay. Um, so without a reader, being able to spot it from way far away. So, um, I guess the thing I struggled with the most, so you asked me for strategies on how to write and I'm like, actually it was really hard and I don't know how I did it, um,

Speaker 2: 17:52

Trouble with asking people craft questions. Do you remember, how did you do this?

Speaker 3: 17:58

Well, for me, this strategy was, was focusing on one, one scene at a time. What I really wanted to do in this book. It's not like a super high octane book where everybody is always fighting and everybody's always stealing stuff. It's a slow build where you have characters who are, um, gathering in the crew that they need, and then, um, gathering the supplies that they need and then getting access to the thing that they need to get into. So there's lots of little tiny heists that lead up to the big one, rather than there being like one big heist that suddenly happens if that makes sense. So the slow build that helps me to really like, um, set up all the different characters abilities, because usually with a heist career, you have, um, you have, I mean, the trope is that you have like the one who blows things up and the one who's the mastermind and the one who does this and the one who does that, I feel like being able to slow, build it up, really meet, allowed me to showcase what each character could do so that when we got to the end, when they were stealing the thing, it was really easy to like have people fall right into place and to see where things broke, if somebody wasn't there and, um, where things went really well, if somebody did their job well[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 19:04

Yeah. Did you decide what skills useful skills the characters were going to have first and then kind of build the heist around that? Or did you kind of figure out how the heist was going to go down and then be like, okay, well I need someone who can steal or someone who can be stealthy and I need someone who can blow things up or whatever. Like what, what order did that work for you?

Speaker 3: 19:32

I started with characters. I always start with characters. Like I would say that this book is extremely character driven because I feel like those skillsets and what characters can do is one of my favorite things to mess with. Because as soon as you take that thing, they can do away. That's exactly where you start seeing characters grow. Um, and so I, yeah, I started with what people could do and then I built the heist itself around that, for sure.

Speaker 2: 19:58

Okay. Well, let's go there then, because the characters are so great and I love this. I love, I don't know if it's, if I'm just noticing it now or if it really is a trend that, uh, has become bigger in the last few years, but this, the high story with the ensemble cast in a fantasy setting, like we've got yearbook, it's phenomenal. We've got the gilded wolves, six of crows. I just love this. Uh, so what was the catalyst for you first for deciding that you wanted to have four protagonists and you writing the story from four points of view and how did you kind of start figuring out how you were going to incorporate these different voices and kind of balance the different storylines?

Speaker 3: 20:46

Um, I think I, to write a big, huge multi POV book like this, because I mean, I'd always wanted to write a heist because I love like misfortune and the lies of Locke Lamar. And I loved the WIA ones. I love, um, six of crows and the gilded wolves. And there a bunch now, like you mentioned, um, and I just wanted to capture that feeling of like the ensemble cast, because like, that's one of my favorite things about TV shows. Usually usually not movies as much because you don't have enough time with the characters to really latch on to them and their relationships with each other. There's not enough time for you to have like a huge ensemble cast where you care about everybody. Um, and so what I really wanted to write was something big where you could see from everybody's head, like what was happening and how they fit together and like why they love each other and why they hate each other. I just, I love books that are able to do that. And so when I started building this, um, I came up with on way the main, the, the first person you see in this book, the first POV first, I think I had a dream about witches or something, and that's always how it starts with me. I have a weird dream and then I write it down. And then I read a book that has nothing to do with the dream. I started with her. And then as I built it out, like I started writing this book probably like eight years ago where I started with just her as a, like a single POV. And I was in the middle, I got, uh, got a book deal and started reading, writing the last start burning books, um, right in the middle of that. So I put it aside and when I came back to it, I was like, this definitely needs another point of view because it's really one note. And then as I was writing, I was like, no, it needs to more because I want to see this other side of the story, because there's definitely two sides to this story. There's like the on way we're coming at it as a we're stealing the thing. And then there are the people who are down in the tomb who are discovering what is in the tomb, like as archeologists they're side of it. And I really wanted to see it from both sides. And so that's where all the different POV's came from.

Speaker 2: 22:48

Was it difficult for you? Cause I remember writing, um, winter, the last book of the lunar Chronicles, where suddenly I had like 10 different points of view and oh, I know like I'd be riding along and then realize, oh, we haven't seen crests in like 80 pages and then I'd have to go back and figure out like, where can I insert her and how I need to give her, you know, something going on in her storyline that, you know, melds well with what is going on in everyone else's storyline. And it was just difficult sometimes just making sure that you were keeping all of the plots balanced, but also keeping them all moving forward in a way that readers wouldn't be like yawn, get us back to the action.

Speaker 3: 23:42

Yeah. It's not, I think that characters that are all in different places is a much different beast than four characters who are all kind of like messing each other up all the time. So if you have four characters who are in the same, I actually, with my last book in Deadman, rising Deadman, rising in the Western star burning series, I had that same thing. I only had four characters. I've never tried 10. That is amazing. Not

Speaker 2: 24:05

Recommended.

Speaker 3: 24:08

Just the, just the idea of it kind of makes my brain hurt.

Speaker 2: 24:11

You know what I was thinking. So what else seemed to work out okay.

Speaker 3: 24:16

And make your bed, and then you have to sleep in it with a big space like that. But with that one, every character was in a different place. And so I had to figure out how to do that with those characters. I'm like, how do I make this story feel like it's cohesive when they're not even talking to each other? What do I do here? Yeah. So, but with this book, I avoided that entirely by having the characters, like constantly like walking into a room, right. As the other one walks out of it. And like having the tension be like, when are they going to see each other type of stuff? Like the, the tension between characters works really well because everybody is kind of in the same story at the same time. So it's less complicated than doing that big epic sprawling stuff, which is exciting, but it does not sound fun.

Speaker 2: 24:57

The one thing I love is that, you know, you've got these four characters and they are all equally motivated to get in this tomb, get the sword, you know, but they've each got totally different reasons for it. Um, and so you're playing with a lot of different motives. What was like, what were you thinking as you were developing the characters or developing their backstories or the plot, um, when it came to deciding what their motives would be that would kind of hook them and keep them in this story?

Speaker 3: 25:35

Well, when I was developing it, I wanted to think of, of the most cross purpose reasons I possibly could so that there would be character conflict as well as plot conflict. Um, all of them are doing it for very, very different reasons, like you mentioned. And they all have something very, very, uh, they, they have very high stakes if they don't get it, like the bad things will happen. And so, um, like as I was developing it, I really wanted to have that. Like I wanted the readers to be on both teams where they're like, I really want all of these characters to win, but they can't, they can't all win. And so how does this, how is this going to resolve how's this going to work? And, um, I, I hope I accomplished that to see, but, um, yeah, that was the main thing was just trying to make sure that everybody was at cross purposes with everybody else at all times.

Speaker 2: 26:29

Did you go into writing the story, knowing who was going to win and how it's going to resolve, because this isn't a duology so I don't know how it's gonna resolve yet. Um, but do you feel like you knew early on how it was going to go or were you kind of discovering as you went?

Speaker 3: 26:49

Um, I am a weird mashup of a discovery writer and a planner. So, um, when I, when I put this book, when I submitted it to my editor for as a proposal, because I didn't write the whole book before, um, before submitting it, I submitted an outline for book two that was like half a page long. It says here's how to, and I'm not going to tell you any of the things that happened to get us there because I don't know what they are yet. But,

Speaker 2: 27:17

And are you sticking to that plan?

Speaker 3: 27:19

Yes. Well, I mean, in general, I know what I mean. I mean, the book is done now, so I know what happens now, but at the time I, um, I knew how I wanted the character stuff to resolve, and that was the most important thing. So like the heist is really fun and awesome and it's what causes all the character stuff to happen, but it's the character relationships that matter most to me as a writer. And so that was what went into my outline. Sure.

Speaker 2: 27:44

Well, I'm excited, excited to see where it goes and how it all ends up in your email. At one point you had said something about how we could talk about the, about newness of a book. What on earth does that mean? What does the about newness of a book I flagged that immediately was like, I don't know what she's talking about, but we'll find out

Speaker 3: 28:12

Awesome. Okay. Well, when I think about the, about NIS, I'm using air quotes of a book, I think like there's usually a plot and a character arc, and then there are like mini character arcs in some cases, many more for other writers of us over there. Um, there for me at least needs to have, there needs to be a point to the book that it's saying more than like this character got from point a to point B and managed to steal the sword and is now very happy. And that's the end of the book. Like I want there to be something that a reader can take away and be like, I learned something here or I felt something as a result of reading this. And it applies to me as a person, not just to me as a person, who's reading a book about a murder and stealing stuff, you know? So like the about newness of a book I feel like is one of the first things that comes to me as I'm, as I'm writing is, I want to know what's like the characters are going to learn. That's going to be meaningful. If that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 29:12

So would you say it's like the theme of the

Speaker 3: 29:15

Book? I, that's probably a more educated way of saying this.

Speaker 2: 29:20

I just want to make sure her the same page

Speaker 3: 29:24

Themes can go. Um, I feel like theme is a little bit of a broader term, but yeah, I, it probably goes into that camp. Yeah. So

Speaker 2: 29:31

What are some of the, what is, what would you say is the about newness the storm? Like what were some of the themes that you were like really focusing and hoping to draw to the surface and maybe leave in the reader's memory?

Speaker 3: 29:46

Well, um, something that I really wanted to put out there and this book is, I feel like, um, Y a is, it's got a really interesting vibe to it right now where it feels like there's a lot of books with like characters that are dealing with like a religion or a government that's really terrible or something that's like bigger than them. That always turns out to be bad. And then they have to take that thing down. And what I really wanted to look at in this was struggling with something that's difficult and finding a place inside of it instead of struggling against something. And then, and then destroying it, if that makes sense. I wanted to, I mean, cause I feel like, like, especially with religion and in Yia, I feel like there's always like the religious leaders. This is not necessarily true. I'm sure there are plenty of white books that, um, have characters who are religious, who, who managed to continue on forward in that religion and be okay. But it seems like a lot of times when you have a religious reckoning or like a, like an internal reckoning, it, it tends to reflect really badly on whatever, like the structures, the governmental structures or the religious structures or whatever it else is, it would help for else that's happening in the book. And I didn't want to do that. I wanted to do something where like there's a reckoning, but it turns out okay without destroying everything.

Speaker 2: 31:05

Okay. Now I can see that it's cause I totally know what you're saying that, you know, of course it's exciting. The bring down the man overthrow, everything, start from scratch. You know, it makes for a great story, but in real life can't we all just get along.

Speaker 3: 31:22

Well, I think that in real life, a lot of times grappling with questions like that is really difficult because there isn't like a bomb. You can go set off and fix everything, right. I mean, you usually end up having to grapple with like a lifetime of like, this is my family and they're going to be here no matter what. So I have to figure out whether I can exist with them or not with them. If you have problems with your family, sorry, I just randomly came up with that as an example or like a lot of, yeah. I mean, there are lots of like interpersonal things that are really difficult for people that I feel like get kind of skated over in Nya sometimes, which isn't true, actually, I'm just lying here. There's plenty of really, really great character dynamics and

Speaker 2: 31:59

Relationships, fantasy

Speaker 3: 32:01

It's. I mean, I feel like there's some really fun, epic fantasy, like, um, Trisha Levin seller just wrote a book about like dealing with anxiety, which I love.

Speaker 2: 32:09

I love them.

Speaker 3: 32:11

Yeah. And then there's, there've been a lot like that where you're dealing with stuff in a, through a fantasy lens, which actually is really helpful. I think for people who don't want to deal with the problem directly, or they don't want to read something about that directly, they want to see it through another lens. And so, um, I feel like that's becoming more of a thing and I wanted to do that thing. So he did.

Speaker 2: 32:33

And you can because you're a writer allowed to do it. Um, do you want to save a minute to talk about your middle grade that is coming out next year? That sounds super cute and fun. Um, I had the title, I lost it. You tell us what your middle name

Speaker 3: 32:54

It's called a Baker's guide to Robert pie. And it's about, uh, a baker who, um, is bored with needing bread and decides she wants to go find these magical creatures in the old forest who are very dangerous and tricky, but can give you magic and take you on adventures. And when she goes to find one, she finds a bunch of robbers instead who, um, tried to kidnap her. And so it's about her hiding from them and finding magic and deciding whether or not it's a good thing or a bad thing.

Speaker 2: 33:25

It sounds so fun. I can't wait to read it. I'm going to read it with my girls. I've already decided for you. And this is your middle grade debut, is that correct? It is. So what was it like switching from writing in more of a Yia voice into middle grade?

Speaker 3: 33:42

Well, I was actually quite a star. I feel like I'm saying that to all these I'm like, actually it was very hard. It was hard. It was a struggle. When I first wrote this book, it was this weird tween in like I wanted that quirky middle grade voice where everything is a little bit off kilter, silly, lots of sparkly magic, and like, um, things don't always go terribly. Like you explode something and, and the only sparkles come out of it rather than like buildings falling down. I love that about middle grade because there's lots of fans full fairytale, ish, like that things happen, but they don't really happen in a really big way. And you can have a funny take on things and you can have a really funny voice. But for some reason when I was first writing, then I'm like, oh, there should be a romance in this. No, this should be had like a really twisty, intricate plot. And that's not middle-grade at all. And I mean, you can, you can deal with twisting intercut plots in middle grade, but for the most part, uh, stories like that tend to be a little bit more linear. And so it took like years, years and years of, of this being my back-burner book. Cause I was, I had other stuff on I'm under contract and I was constantly working on that when, whenever I had time, I'd come back to this other book and be like, how can I fix this so that it makes sense as a book and not as like weird mind vomit. So, um, yeah, it just, it, it was really difficult for me to like, just make it more simple and to make the voice really super consistent and to take out all the things that just didn't make sense for the story where it was. So it was difficult to figure out, but once I did, it's like my favorite thing I've ever written. It was so fun, silly and exciting. And like anything is possible in the low-grade and I love that.

Speaker 2: 35:19

Is it the first of a series or is it a standalone?

Speaker 3: 35:22

It's a standalone. I mean, it's a standalone and it could be a series I suppose, but right now it's a standalone. Okay.

Speaker 2: 35:28

So do you, are you working on another middle grade or do you plan to continue writing in that age?

Speaker 3: 35:35

Oh, right now I'm, I'm finishing all the books that I am supposed to be writing and homeschooling.

Speaker 2: 35:40

I feel like I'm fully dressing you out with that means you

Speaker 3: 35:45

Got to write another middle grade book. I would love to write another one in the series, but we'll see if that happens. Yeah,

Speaker 2: 35:50

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that sounds super fun. And I mean, I also, I haven't, I don't have a middle grade published and, or under contract, but I've dabbled a little bit in trying to write younger audiences and it is surprising how difficult it is to kind of turn off some of those things that you're used to with Y a to now be like, wait, pause, no on the romance, no. On the, you know, pages and pages of flowery description, like it's a different way of thinking about story.

Speaker 3: 36:24

Well, and even the development of characters is different and like the way characters interact with each other is different. It's very different. Yeah. Just in general. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:32

Um, I, I love the genre. I'd love to write in it someday.

Speaker 3: 36:36

I hope you do. It would be awesome. I hope I do too.

Speaker 2: 36:41

Um, and then before we go onto a bonus round, I want listeners to know a little bit more about your podcast so they can go listen to it when they're done here. Uh, it is the lit service podcast you've had me on as a guest a while back and it was really fun. Um, why don't you tell people about it?

Speaker 3: 37:00

Sure. I'm glad you had fun. Um, so it is a craft podcast where we spend about 15 minutes talking with, uh, publishing professionals. We had Marissa and obviously you've had lots of other authors on, um, and then we also have agents and editors on sometimes. So we usually talk about craft or about publishing or like the business side of publishing, um, or like agents we'll talk about querying or like how you can present yourself. There's lots of stuff for authors to figure out. And then we do first chapter critiques for aspiring authors. Um, when I was first queering, I really, really struggled to know what was wrong with the things that I was submitting. Like when I didn't get responses back to like my query or like people would read my first three chapters and then say, no things like that's really disheartening, especially because in publishing, usually people just say, no thanks. And nothing else, they don't tell you what was wrong. And so, um, I started this podcast as a way to maybe help people who are kind of floundering through the query trenches to give them ideas about things that might be sending up red flags or things that, um, aren't landing quite the way they think they might be and might be the, the reason that agents are passing on their pages and hopefully helping people.

Speaker 2: 38:12

What do you think is like maybe the number one thing that you personally have taken away from doing the podcast and translated into your own writing?

Speaker 3: 38:24

Oh gosh, I've gotten so much good advice on that podcast. Really, what it really is about is I get to talk to really smart people about how to write better and it's great all the time. Um, I feel like the thing that I took away that has been the most valuable as far as advice goes is, um, we had, um, Donald song on our podcast a couple of months over the kiss was last year. And, um, they said that authors like to try to use, um, questions to propel their readers forward rather than action. And always, always, always knowing the stakes and knowing what your character wants and what will happen to them if they can't have it. That's what stakes are, um, is way more compelling than not knowing what's going on. And so, um, as somebody who doesn't like to tell readers things, that's always the thing I have to work on most in my first three chapters, ish, I always end up like just throwing stuff at people. Um, instead of like explaining things in a way that makes sense so that the rest of the story moves forward in a way that people can just follow. Um, I guess I just, I want to trust readers more than they need. Like maybe I just required too much of people, but, um, taking that advice where I'm like, it's better to have a really great setup and then to move straight into action than it is to try and get people to ask the wrong sorts of questions, the right kinds of questions are like, what will happen next if she doesn't get this? Or what will happen if rather than what is going on? If that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 39:56

Yeah. I know the first chapter, the first couple chapters, I mean, it's such a balancing act of trying to introduce all of the things you're trying to introduce, um, and get your reader, you know, get them settled in, let them know what kind of story they're in and what these characters are all about. But without it being boring without the big info dump and you need to have, you know, actions, something needs to be happening immediately. And it's, I mean, I don't know anybody who like nails the first chapter on the first try. It's

Speaker 3: 40:35

Like the last thing I write. Yes. I'm

Speaker 2: 40:37

Constantly going back and fidgeting with that first chapter. Um, and trying to strike that balance. It is, it is asking a lot of usually just a few pages.

Speaker 3: 40:47

Yes, absolutely. It's only the truly amazing. Could probably do that in one go, actually that nobody does. That's why we have revision. That's why there's.

Speaker 2: 40:57

Oh, great. All right. Are you ready for our happy writer bonus round? Absolutely. Awesome. What is your favorite writing snack?

Speaker 3: 41:09

Oh, I don't eat when I write. I'm always like hiding under something. So my kids can't find me. If I brought food to be able to smell me

Speaker 2: 41:16

There's food, the kids will come crawling, um, healer magic or modern medicine.

Speaker 3: 41:25

Oh, I mean, I feel like healer magic is cooler, but modern magic. I mean, modern medicine is probably more effective.

Speaker 2: 41:34

Ocean's 11 or oceans? 13,

Speaker 3: 41:37

11, definitely 11.

Speaker 2: 41:39

Me too. Me too. Yeah. Let's serve as podcast or happy writer podcast. Well, that's

Speaker 3: 41:46

The trick question here

Speaker 2: 41:48

Right now. You don't to answer that one. If she who reds the storm had a theme song, what would it be?

Speaker 3: 41:57

Uh, it would be, oh, what's the name of that yellow card song? The one, I don't know the names of songs. I'm sorry. The only one is that what it's called? That's what? It was no idea. Well, there you go. Listen, I didn't listen to yellow card when I was, when they were cool when I was in high school, but my husband did. And so now I listen to it. I'm like, oh, there's the theme song. So there you go. Nice.

Speaker 2: 42:21

What is your favorite way to fill the creative? Well,

Speaker 3: 42:25

Um, I like to, I used to run actually and just being out by myself outside and like moving, um, was a really helpful creative, well filler, but I actually injured myself. This is not a great lightning round. Here's my whole life story. I injured myself. I can't run anymore. So now I walk,

Speaker 2: 42:42

Oh, no, I'm sorry. You can't run anymore. I am a recent adoptee of running. Um, I used to hate it, but I've come around and now I really love it. That's great. But I'm so sorry that you can't do it anymore. That sucks. That's

Speaker 3: 42:58

Okay. That's true.

Speaker 2: 43:01

That's true. Yeah. What is your personal mantra?

Speaker 3: 43:06

Um, that, well, see, that's an interesting question. Mine is probably just to keep going to do the next thing, just to do it in small bites. One thing at a time, how many mantras can I come up with before you ask me this

Speaker 2: 43:25

Work together, they'll fit nicely into a, just a general, you know, way of living. What book makes you happy?

Speaker 3: 43:35

My, um, favorite book in the entire world is Ella and chanted.

Speaker 2: 43:40

That's such a good book. I love it. What are you working on next?

Speaker 3: 43:46

Well, right now I'm finishing up. Uh, she who rises from too. Um, and then after that I have a Peter pan adaptation that I'm working on. That's scifi and very, very fast. I was trying my hand at this book. She rides the storm is like almost 200,000 words. Let's not tell anybody that now that I've already told you that it's

Speaker 2: 44:09

Big,

Speaker 3: 44:11

Big twisty, four points of view, huge book. And what I wanted to try to do is write a book that was quick. And so this one's like 80,000 words. It's another backburner book that I'm going to go back to and fix up. That's my next project.

Speaker 2: 44:25

Well, Saifai Peter pan sounds amazing. Um, and I just, on top of that, I remember when you sent me the Ark and I opened it and saw how big it was like, oh, come on. But it does not read like a big book. It reads very quickly. Oh, thanks.

Speaker 3: 44:43

That's good.

Speaker 2: 44:45

Lastly, where can people find you?

Speaker 3: 44:48

Um, I'm mostly on Instagram, um, and not many other social media platforms at Keats at to keep thankster. I mean, you can always find me on my website, Caitlin sangster.com and that's it.

Speaker 2: 45:01

Yep. Awesome. Katelyn, thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks

Speaker 3: 45:06

So much for having me. It's

Speaker 2: 45:07

Been fun readers. Please check out. She who rides the storm. It will be in bookstores tomorrow. Of course, we always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. Next week, we have a special episode coming up. I will be joining square books in hosting the virtual launch event for Kindara Blake's newest horror, suspense novel, all these bodies. That event is happening live on tomorrow. If you're listening to this, when it airs, uh it's. So Tuesday, September 21st at six 30 Eastern. Um, and if you want to join us live, you can find the link@squarebooks.com. But if you can't make it to the event, we will be sharing the audio for your listening pleasure. In next week's episode, if you're enjoying these conversations, I would love it. If you subscribe and please leave us a review on Google or apple podcasts, you can follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer, author and happy writer podcast. And don't forget to go on and share your books, spine poetry until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.

Speaker 1: 46:36

[inaudible].