The Happy Writer with Marissa Meyer

Guest: Sarah Rhea Werner - Write Now Podcast + Girl in Space (audio drama)

October 11, 2021 Marissa Meyer Episode 87
The Happy Writer with Marissa Meyer
Guest: Sarah Rhea Werner - Write Now Podcast + Girl in Space (audio drama)
Show Notes Transcript

Marissa chats with Sarah Rhea Werner - host of the Write Now podcast and creator of the award-winning audio drama "Girl in Space" - about All Things Creativity! Topics include the definition of "creativity" and how all types of creative expression deserve credit and affirmation; why the practice of conscious consumption is step one in generating lots of ideas; keeping a journal and playing the "what if?" game as effective brainstorming strategies; lots of tips for overcoming various writing fears - from fear of running out of ideas, to fear of failure, to fear of success, and everything in between; re-sparking inspiration for an idea that has started to fizzle out; and how to know when working with a creativity consultant or book coach might be right for you. 

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Speaker 1:

[inaudible]

Speaker 2:

Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help others find more joy in their writing. I am your host. Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. One thing, making me happy this week is I love all seasons of the year, but fall is definitely my favorite. I am ready. I am ready for chunky sweaters and game nights with apple cider and mostly the rain. And I know not everybody likes the rain, but I love it. And we had a huge rainstorm last night. It was the kind that woke me and my husband up at like three o'clock in the morning. And the rain was pounding on the windows and there's big wind rattling all the trees and all of this. And we had to get up and look outside, cause it was so tumultuous and just love that. I think it's so cool. And I love the sound and how good it smells in the world this morning, all the things it makes me super, super happy. And of course I am also very happy to be talking to today's guest. If you remember, from the end of last week's episode, I said that this week I was going to be talking to someone chain Nani, I lied, things got rescheduled. He is going to be on here in a few weeks today. Instead I am very excited to be talking to a fellow podcaster and someone who like me seems to be sort of obsessed with the creative process and uncovering ways that we can all be more creative. She is the host of the podcast right now, the creator of the award-winning Saifai audio drama girl in space. And she is a writer, speaker, and executive producer. She's got a ton of irons in the fire. I can't wait to talk about them. Please. Welcome Sarah Ray Warner. Oh my gosh, Marissa. Thank you so much for that introduction. Wow. You make me sound fantastic. Thank you. You make yourself sound fantastic. Sarah. I have to say just after going through your website and looking at all of the things you're doing, I feel already like we are kindred spirits. I do too. And especially since, oh, sorry. There's a cat. Okay. We'll just, uh, that'll be edited out. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe we'll leave it in for reality. Angry senile 19 year old cat, who I love, who lives in my office? Um, my goodness. She's she's my little old lady. Oh, I was going to say though, um, I also feel this kindred spirit and especially in talking about fall, I have been rejoicing for like the last two weeks. Um, I got my sweaters out, even though it is technically 86 degrees here today. I have a hot cup of tea right now. We have the AC on the leaves are changing. I'm so happy. So I just, I love that. You said that I love that you were also a fan of fall. I know lots of people I'm in Western Washington and I feel like if you don't like the rain, then you're just going to be miserable here and stuff like you got to embrace it. You got it. Yes. My, uh, my partner and I took a, a vacation of Vancouver and sort of the Pacific Northwest, uh, several years ago. And we went during a beautiful rainy season and I was like, this is everything. And I love it. And I love it here. So are you from, uh, I'm over in the South Dakota. Okay. So kind of in the great Midwest? Yeah. Lots of fields. Yup. Awesome. Well today I definitely want to talk to you a lot about creativity. Um, just kind of in general, but also of course, specifically as it applies to writers and publishing. Uh, however, before we go into that, I want to start by getting to know you a little bit better and letting listeners getting to know you a little bit better. Um, so let's start with your personal origin story. What would you say were maybe some of the major twists and turns of your life that brought you to where you are in your career today? Oh gosh. Um, I think that I would begin by saying, I think probably like a large majority of your audience. I grew up loving books. Um, I wasn't allowed to watch TV. And so basically if I wanted to be entertained, it was kind of books or nothing. So I chose books and immerse myself in stories from the time I was very little, um, in a way it served me well in a way, it made me a little bit of a social outcast because people would be talking about saved by the bell. And I would be like, I don't know what that is, but have you read, you know, this or this? Um, see, you know, a little, a little setting yourself up to be a little bit of a social outcast. Um, gosh, otherwise I've always been working on stuff. I think that, that goes hand in hand. If you tends to love a medium, you end up wanting to maybe emulate it. And so I've been writing books and novels by hand and on, you know, terrible little computers and typewriters for my entire life. Um, it's interesting, you know, I think that we learn a lot to dampen ourselves so that we fit in, uh, early on in life. And then later we realized that maybe we should not have done that and we start to slowly let ourselves back out. And so I'm in the process right now of rediscovering that creative weirdo who I kind of buried years and years ago. Um, so yeah, so, uh, I, uh, write full-time I produce podcasts. I do all sorts of creative projects. Um, yeah, I left my day job in marketing about five years ago now and just continuing to love life. Nice. And you have, uh, I know at least two projects that seem to be kind of a, at least from what I can tell your maybe biggest focuses that you can correct me if that's not the case, you've got the right now podcast. Um, and you've got this audio drama girl in space. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I started the right now podcast. It's a show kind of very much like yours, uh, back in 2015. And I started it because I was a blogger who is frustrated that there were so many blogs out there and I wanted to do something different and do something that would maybe stand out a little bit, uh, back in 2015, there weren't a ton of podcasts or at least not as many as there are now. Uh, and I was able to go ahead and start that and sort of pour my passion migrated from blogging over to podcasting. Um, yeah. And so that ended up going wonderfully. I met a lot of cool people in the industry, um, through podcasting actually, it's, it's so strange. It's not writing that supercharged my writing career. It was podcasting. Um, podcasting ended up launching me into public speaking. It launched me into, I mean, obviously podcasting, but also being a guest on other people's podcasts. It also, uh, sort of helped me build a network. I was speaking at conferences, uh, I think my, my writing improved because of podcasting. Um, so just a lot of really good stuff going on there. And then in 2017 I was like, you know what? I have this non-fiction podcasts that I really enjoy. Um, why don't I just try reading a fictional story into my microphone? And, you know, I thought I had invented something new. I thought I'd invented fictional podcast. Of course I hadn't. They have a long and storied history, especially over in the UK. Um, but I know my brilliant idea. It happens all the time. I'm constantly inventing things and then just very depressively finding out they already exist somewhere. Um, but yeah, so, uh, I invented fictional pot and kidding. Um, I started my fictional podcast, which I just called girl in space. It's about a girl in space and launched that in 2017 and it did really well. And I'm working on writing season two right now. I learned a lot in the process of writing season one. Um, and so I'm kind of putting those lessons into play here. Uh, I had a short-lived stints, uh, producing a TV, which was fun and interesting and weird and exciting. Um, and yeah, other than that, I'm just sort of the kind of person who, um, I don't know. I'm, like you said, I always have irons in the fire. I'm a, I go straight books. I wrote for Forbes for a, just kind of bouncing all over the place creatively, just, uh, seeing what grabs my attention. Nice. And you can never get bored that way. Exactly, exactly. That's what it's all about. I have a question. I have never listened to a fictional podcast, but I listened to a ton of audio books. Ooh, what's the difference? That's such a, that's one of my favorite. That's your, you just made me so happy. It's one of the things I love to talk about to serve. Oh, you're great. Um, audio books and fictional podcasts are not super different. Um, but the few key differences are that. So with an audio book, you know, you have a story and it's often written in first person and there's often a narrator. Um, and you know, the narrator will just read the book, you know, cover to cover. And sometimes they'll do voices. Sometimes they won't, sometimes there's a little bit of background music, sometimes there's not. Um, but you kind of know what you're getting into with an audio book, with an audio drama. It is written sort of like a screenplay. So it's all going to be, the story comes across in three ways in dialogue, in sound effects and in music and yeah, and so most, uh, most audio dramas do have a full cast of characters and each character is played by a different actor. Um, and again, they are written sort of like a screenplay. So again, it's just dialogue sound effects, stage directions. Um, and then music and, um, several shows have a specially commissioned music. Um, I have a theme song for girl in space that I did not commission. And I found instead on a free pod, you know, pod safe music website. Um, but yeah, I have a full cast of actors, um, yeah, sound effects. There's explosions. There's, you know, well, you know, whatever kind of show you're listening to mind Saifai so of course there's like spaceships and stuff. Um, but yeah, so those are the main differences there. Oh, that's so much fun both to listen to, but to create and to be able to come up with that and right. As a screenplay, like, yeah, that just sounds like a blast. It's been so fun. It's honestly, it's been well it's, it's been life-changing in the best way. Nice. So, okay, so you, you're a writer, you're you have this podcast, you have this, this audio drama, you also have a newsletter for creatives. You have, you do speaking engagements, you have a really wonderful blog. And I really want to draw attention to that. Cause I got sucked right into it. I was like, I do all day long. Um, you host something called create alongs. I want to talk about that later. You do creativity consulting. So you're busy, but I'm particularly intrigued because obviously a lot of us are concerned about generating our own creativity and how do I get more ideas? How do I get better ideas, et cetera, et cetera. But you are really developing a career around helping other people be more creative, which I think is so cool and so interesting. And I want to know, why do you care? Why do you care about helping other people be more creative? Oh, that's, you know what, I've been on a lot of interviews. I've never been asked this question ever before, so thank you. This is, oh, this is going to be so lovely to talk about. Um, you know, it's interesting when I first started blogging, um, the, the whole point of the blog was to help other writers. And so that's kind of been my mission from the start and that blog eventually turned into the right now podcasts. And the mission statement of the right now podcast is to help people find the time, energy and courage. They need to pursue their passion and create and write. And I think that that, uh, the instinct to help other people comes from a few different places first and foremost, you know, growing up books and writing. That was how I connected with the world. Um, books were pretty much my only friends, you know, as, uh, as much of a loser as that makes me sound like, like my friends were books and I know that I would not have made it and, and, you know, kind of in one piece if I hadn't had those books and I'm so grateful to all of those writers and authors who I read, uh, throughout my childhood and beyond for, you know, not to be too dramatic about it, but for saving my life. Um, and I've, and I've always enjoyed fiction as a place of safety and healing. So if you're interested in my work, there's not going to be a lot of, um, you know, they won't end in tragedy. I like, uh, to make sure that there is space for healing space, for people to insert themselves into the story and find comfort and joy and delight. Um, that's just, you know, that's just my style. That's, what's important to me. Um, another place that came from was growing up, my dad was a pastor. And so we developed this whole, you know, serve others, you know, put yourself last, you know, kind of mindset. Um, and so that just, um, kind of just permeated my whole life. I spent a lot of time, uh, helping out other people and volunteering and you know, all, all of that good stuff that you do while you're growing up. And that kind of came through to today when I just can't help it. If I see somebody I'm like, oh my gosh, what can I do to, to help and support you right now? And sometimes, often people don't answer, but every once in a while they'll be like, oh my gosh, can you read this over and give me a critique? And I'll be like, sure. And I just found that I really enjoyed doing that. I liked helping people to feel seen and validated. Um, and it just, uh, it just kinda went from there. Yeah. And of course, to be able to take something that you're clearly so passionate about, um, you can hear it even just in your voice talking about it and develop it into a career. And like, this is what I'm going to spend my time. There's Matt. Oh, I agree. The hard thing though, was like asking to get paid for it. Like that was really, I don't work a lot on that. It's like, oh, I love doing this, but I also need to eat food and like one little problem. Um, so on that note, so we're going to be talking of course, a lot about, um, how listeners to this show can start cultivating their creativity and all of this. Um, but to start, just to kind of lay the groundwork for that discussion, in your opinion, what does it even mean to be creative? That's such a good question. And I think everybody you talk to is going to have a different definition. I've read a million different definitions. Um, a lot of people will say, it's, you know, this power to make something out of nothing. Um, but I don't, I don't necessarily agree with that. I agree that that's how things get made, but I think creativity in itself is just a type of energy that we have not to sound too. Woo, woo. About anything. But I think, oh, then I'm just going to dive right into this. Um, uh, you know, I, I won't get into like what people believe spiritually or anything like that, but, um, I think we were created to create, I think that we exist in this life to make beautiful things. I think that's what we're here for and to help and love and serve each other. And, you know, creativity for me has always just been this tidal wave in my brain. And you know, every once in a while I'll sit down and release it onto the page. No, I love that. I, I agree. I think that, well, I'll back up a little bit. One of my biggest pet peeves is when someone tells me that they are just not creative. Oh. And I hear that and I want to shake them because my belief is that we cannot be human and not be creative. I feel like the two are intimately entwined. Yes. This is what sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom is our creativity. And yes, you might not be a writer or an artist, a painter, a musician, blah, blah, blah. But we all have this intrinsic ability to develop ideas and, you know, come up with new, new thoughts, new problem, solving new solutions, uh, you know, just, we all have this inside of us. Um, and so I just, it drives me nuts when someone says, oh, I'm just not a creative person. So what do you say when someone says that to you? Oh, it's, it's so interesting. I hear this a lot actually in my work and you know, I even heard it growing up. My mother always insisted she was not creative. Well, my mom is like super, super creative. She, my mom's a sower and she just makes the most amazing things with the fabric. And I was just always, what do you mean? You're not okay. Sorry. It's tangent. Go ahead. Oh, no, I'm here. I'm here on this tangent with you. And I think it comes from a lot of different places. I think first and foremost, there's this expectation that's placed on us. There's an expectation. There is a role of a creator in society, right? And it's like this crazy artists that we're thinking of, or someone who roams around Paris, like looking up at the sky and then going back to their loft and drinking a bottle of wine and painting an entire painting. And that's their life. And, you know, not very many of us have that lifestyle. And so we say, oh, I'm not that sort of stereotypical brand of creative. And so I am not creative. I think it also comes back to what we learn in school. So this may be very specific to my own experience, or it may resonate with your listeners, but you know, growing up in kindergarten, you know, we had coloring time. We had time where we could use those big red pencils and we could write, um, we were encouraged to art and be creative. And then, you know, as we age through the school system, uh, that lessened more and more and more, and the focus became more on, oh, let's take things more seriously. Let's talk about biology. Let's talk about, you know, a composition class. Let's talk about gym class. Let's talk about these other things. And art was sort of pushed into the periphery. Um, and so it's not taken seriously academically because I think it's not understood. Oh, and this is, I won't get into this whole, whole rant. But, um, I don't think it's, uh, valued, not so much understood, but I don't think it's valued. Um, as, as much as, as much as it could be in as much as it should be. I also think it's interesting that both of our mothers, uh, insist that they're not creative. And I think that there's also a lot of permission giving and granting and receiving that goes on in, uh, in creative development. I think that, you know, growing up, we look to other people to affirm and validate our creativity. Like, oh, I drew a picture. The first thing you use, you show it to somebody. And you're like, what I made, right. And the person who you show it to, you don't know this at the time, but that person has a lot of power to either validate what you're doing or to shut you down. And I think that a lot of our parents, and maybe even a lot of people who are listening to this podcast right now got shut down at some time in their lives. So hard that they took that on as their identity, they lost their creator identity and they said, oh, I'm not creative. Hmm. Okay. I see how that tastes. Okay. I'm not creative. Okay. I can live with that. I still enjoy other things. I still swim. I still go for hikes. I'm just not creative. And I think people, we, we have a tendency to very strongly internalize other people's definitions of who we are. And I think that a lot of people just hear that they hear that they're not creative or they're not creative in the correct way. And they say, okay, then I'll move on to something else because we're adaptable too. Right. And yeah. And I love that. You're I love that your mother sows, my mother also sows. Um, my mother also cooks and she does all of these things that are maybe not what we consider like capital a artists, creative, but that's only because these tasks are typically done by women and therefore dismissed by society like spinning yarn and weaving and making tapestries and making clothes. Those are all super legitimate art styles, but, you know, do we value them as much as we should? Maybe not. Right. No. I think that you are hitting on some really great points and there is this cultural idea of what constitutes art and therefore everything under this umbrella, the, the painting, the musicians, the writers that is art. Um, and there's even, you know, literary art versus commercial, you know, there's, you, you get into that too. Um, and then, but you also look at, you know, well, are you, uh, a parent and did you have to solve a fight today that creativity and nobody gets credit for that sort of thing? You know, we don't look at that and think, oh, that was a great solution. How creative have you? It just kind of gets swept in this other direction as something else. We don't see it as creative. And, and I think that's a problem. I think that people need to be given credit and legitimized for all of these brilliant ideas that they come up with that nobody seems to recognize sometimes. Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. That creative problem solving. That's what's going to change the world. Yeah. Oh, that is so true. Uh, all right. Well, let's talk specifically for writers. Obviously we have a lot of writers and aspiring writers who listened to this podcast. Um, and I know a common fear for writers is this idea that they're going to run out of ideas at some point. Um, and I know for me personally, I have the opposite problem, or I have so many ideas and not enough time to get to them all. So I hear people say this, like, ah, I'm afraid that I'm just going to, you know, dry up at some point. And it's really hard for me to relate to, but I've heard it enough that I know that this is something a lot of writers are facing and struggling with. So what is your personal take on that? And if there's someone listening who has this fear, how could we help them? Um, oh my gosh, I love this question because I used to be in this place. I used to be the kind of creator who said, oh my gosh, my number of ideas is really limited. I only have this idea for this story and else. And so I need to like hoard my energy and like focus on this project and like desperately cast around for other ideas. And so I've been in this space before, and it's a really painful place to be as a creator. It's also a space that you're in because you are telling yourself a story that's not necessarily true. You're maybe telling yourself, or you've been told some time in your life that you do only have one good idea or then an artist only ever has one good idea. And I know one hit wonders. Yes. Oh, that was it. Yep. And that's a fear and that's a fear that comes through that. Oh, am I a one hit wonder? I don't want to be a one hit wonder, even though having a hit, it's a pretty big deal. I don't just want one. Right. I want to be, I want to think that my creativity is limitless. I want to think that some part of me is limitless and eternal. Right? And so I, I have some, I have some encouragement for your listeners who, who struggle with this and also some tips. And so encouragement wise, there's a beautiful quote by Maya Angelou, um, about how we can never run out of creativity. And if I was a better person, I would have it prepared in front of me right here. So I could read it out loud to you, but I encourage you. Google Maya Angelou, quotes, creativity. And basically she says, you can never run out of creativity. It's like, love. The more you give, the more you generate, the more you write down, the more you have. So you'll never run out of creativity. And that's for my Angelou who is spectacular and very smart. I know for you to trust her, it was my very first like book of poetry when I was, I don't know, middle school age. And I was just mesmerized by her words, love her. We love her. So there is that encouragement that creativity is not a limited resource. We've only been taught that it is now, okay. How do we make the connection between that creativity flowing out of us and this mindset where we think it can't, um, I like to practice conscious consumption. And so what I mean by that is realizing and understanding that what it means to have an idea. And I think a lot of people say that they don't have an idea for a book or a movie or whatever it is they're writing because they don't have something that's like painfully original. It doesn't, it feels maybe like it's been done before. So they don't count it as an original idea. But the encouragement that I have for you here is that once you put it into your words, once it filters through your magnificent brain, it becomes your story. You put in your worldview, you put in your beliefs and your fears and your encouragements for other people, your own sense of healing into your work. And it becomes new. It becomes your own. There really are no new ideas under the sun. And I know that that may spike anxiety for a lot of listeners, but it's also really freeing like, oh, okay. You know, there's however many basic stories. There's the comedy, the history and the tragedy, oh, that's all there is, oh, what can I do to expand and experiment with those? And this goes back to the idea of conscious consumption, where, what am I reading today? What am I listening to? What am I, you know, what kind of TV am I watching? How many movies am I watching this weekend? And what am I taking away from all of these things? Am I consuming the sort of media that I want to eventually create? Because I think that the way our brains work is yes, we're capable of the spark of generating something from nothing. But I think all more often, what we do is more like a mashup. So we take, uh, you know, uh, a scene that we saw in our childhood. Um, and then we mix that up with a song that we heard in the shower this morning. And we mix that up with the book that we're currently reading. And we're like, oh my gosh, I have an idea for this crazy mystery about this and this. And it's just little scenes and little ideas and little images that are handpicked and curated from other parts of our life. And so I, I always encourage artists. I don't say like, oh, don't watch TV. Cause it rots your brain. Um, if you're going to watch TV, watch some good stuff that inspires you. Um, if you're going to spend time on social media, you know, look at cool stuff that inspires you, um, read a book that makes your brain light up. All of that stuff. Your brain is storing it subconsciously so that it can come out later in your voice, through your interpretation with your intuition and become your art. So that's usually what I have to say to people who are maybe afraid of running out of ideas is use what you have around you. Every single artist curates from their environment, from what they're reading, what they're listening to. If you haven't read it already. Um, Austin Kleon has a fantastic book called steal, like an artist and you can read it in like an hour. It's just a little, it has illustrations. It's super fun steal like an artist. I encourage you to read it and, uh, follow his advice in there. He talks a lot about this sort of creative curation that we do. Well, you are speaking my language. I love this. And this is really similar to advice that I've given a lie where I just try to remind people that you have to get out and live life. Um, because you just don't know, you don't know what trip or meeting, what person overhearing, what conversation going to, what concert, you know, obviously it's harder in COVID times, but just generally speaking, you don't know what moment or experience is going to lead to that. Next idea is going to be the thing that mashes with something else to become your next great idea. And the more that we can get out there and, you know, fill the well or whatever analogy you want to use, the more content that you have to use and to draw from, to create new ideas. What about brainstorming techniques? How do you feel about them? Do you have any favorites? I do. I love them. Um, so brainstorming wise, what I usually do is I'll carry around a little notebook with me and that notebook is strictly for ideas. It is purposefully messy and not organized. And I have a lot of anxiety. I don't know if you can, if you can hear that in the different things that I'm telling you today, but I have a lot of anxiety. And so it really bothered me that I was carrying around a journal, but I didn't want to mess up my journal with thoughts that didn't go with what I was journaling about. And so I started carrying around the second little idea book and in it, I just have little snatches of ideas. I have little phrases that come to mind. I have interesting things that I've seen or interesting people who I want to work into a book or into something else that I'm working on and carrying around that idea book, I'll carry it around probably for months, at least at least six months to a year, maybe often longer. I like to let things stew for a long time. Um, what the, let the flavors all get to know each other, so to speak. And then what I'll do is I'll take that idea book and I'll just start paging through it and I'll look for things that feel coherent. Um, and that will sort of be the start of the setting, the start of the characters. Um, I'm really a setting and characters first kind of person. I know not everyone is like that many people, uh, are plot first. Um, but for me, I like to think of the characters in the setting and think what kind of story can I tell with these people who I'm inventing in my brain? And then my brainstorming process kind of moves over to the what if game, which is one of my favorite brainstorming activities. And this is simply asking what if so for girl in space, it was okay. What if there was this girl in space? All right. What if people came to rescue her? What if she didn't want to be rescued? Oh, okay. What if she was out here? All alone. Okay. What happened to the other people? So I've got those threads going. Um, what if you know this and then also like subverting, uh, tropes. So what if instead of this? So what if instead of there being a big space for like, there are in most science fiction things, what if there wasn't a space for, so what would go in the place of that? How can I subvert those tropes and sort of playing around with the, what if game and then also subverting tropes, uh, you can kind of like tunnel yourself into a really fun and interesting place. Yeah, no, the what if questions are often where my books start? Yes. That, that question that launches a whole new idea for you and it leads you to, it leads you gently by the hand so that you're not just sitting there, like got to come up with a good book. Right, right. And it's so easy when you're just sitting there asking these questions, you can very quickly discard a lot of your answers. Like math, boring, not interested, you know, whatever, but then you land on something and there's that little spark in your brain that you think, oh, that has potential. And of course that's, everyone's favorite feeling. It is. So even if there's not potential, I know a lot of people spending time searching for that spark and not finding it. You can take that exploration a little further. If you don't feel that spark right away, you know, keep playing the, what if game, keep taking your ideas further and further experiment with writing a little bit. You may need to do some discovery writing in order to develop your thoughts fully. So just don't, uh, don't tell yourself you're not creative. Say it. I know rule number one. So on a related note, I feel like in general, a lot of attention is given to the first idea, you know, the, what, what ideas sparked this story or spark this screenplay, or, you know, where did that first idea come from? And, you know, everyone loves telling their inspiration story and that's all good and great, of course. But how often do you talk to a writer and hear, well, I had this great idea. I fell in love. I wrote 30,000 words and then everything fizzled up and I got bored and now I don't know what to do with it. How, whether for you on a personal level or, you know, when you're coaching your creativity consultant clients, I still want to get back to that. What do you say to someone who feels like this great idea that they had has now kind of fizzled off? It's interesting. What I like to do is figure out why it fizzled and it's just my constant questioning. I think that's really what, what consulting is all about. It's just constantly asking people questions and not letting them off the hook. So why, why did this fizzle? Did you take a step or a turn in the plot that just you didn't like, and you didn't know how to fix it, so you kind of just gave up, uh, do we need to back up two chapters and have you start rewriting or replotting from there? Um, is it that this character is no longer resonating with you? Okay. Let's look into why. Um, is it because somebody else read it and told you it was no good. And so you decided to stop, or somebody else said this isn't going to sell and that just completely depressed you and you don't want to work on it anymore. I think it's really important to take a look at, okay. Because I've run into that too. Um, with lots of different works and, you know, for different things, there's been different reasons. So I gave up on, you know, I'm, I'm the kind of person who, in addition to all these other things, I do have a drawer of unpublished novels. Like I think many of us do stories and novels and stuff that have fizzled and looking at them. Um, each one has a different reason. Oh, I was going through a period of grieving and I just was done working on this or personally, I got what I needed out of writing this section of this book. And now I can move on to another project. Um, I think it also goes back to why you're writing in the first place. Like if you're doing it for fun, if you're doing it for personal fulfillment or if you're doing it to finish projects, I know that another thing that gets in the way often is a fear of finishing. And I also totally identify with that because it's really hard for me to finish works. Um, just because of so many different factors, the expectation, uh, the thought of people reading it or listening to it is terrifying. Uh, endings are hard to come up with. It's hard to come up with the right ending to something you've been working on for a year or two years, or, you know, even six to eight months, it's hard to come up with endings. Um, and there's also, you know, we talk about fear of failure and that's certainly, you know, okay, what if this book bombs, what if it doesn't sell? What if everybody laughs at me, what if I make a fool out of myself? What if everyone hates this, but then there's also fear of success, which is a real thing. And that asks a lot more different questions such as, okay, well, what if this takes off, how will I deal with the people's new expectations? How will I find the time and energy to write a sequel? Um, there's so much going on here with our different fears and resistances, um, that I really like to dig in with people and say, all right, let's, let's take a few steps back and retrace your steps and sort of reimagine. And reinvision. How did you feel when you first decided that you wanted to stop writing this book and why were you writing it in the first place? And we kind of go from there. So on that note and you kind of answered this, I have never had never heard of creativity consulting, but I hadn't either. Did you have, did you create this job? Well, okay. I think this is one of those things where you're like, yes, I invented it. And then you realized like tons of other people or no, I did so many things. It's just, where's all my patents. I mean, you know, it's, um, uh, it's one of those things that, you know, I didn't, I didn't even realize that there was like this whole world of like coaching and consulting until I was in the middle of, um, podcasting. And I interviewed somebody who I'd never heard of this job before, but I think that they were a book coach and it was just like somebody who would, uh, and this was Kevin Johns. I have a episode with him at the right now podcasts like a million years ago, but he would coach people and say, okay, you're starting. All right. And he would just be like an accountability partner who you would pay. And he would look at your drafts and he would say, okay, you're doing a good job. Or, you know, this is a little off track work on that. And I was like, that is fascinating. And I was like, I could never ever do something like that in 10 million years. And then I found myself in the podcast speaking circuit, and I found that I was giving people advice from a stage. And that really what I was doing was not one-on-one, but one to many coaching and consulting, especially when audience Q and a would come up and I would have people coming up to me afterwards and saying like, Hey, can I work with you somehow? Will you help me with my project? Um, and I was like, okay. So, uh, this is something that I do now. And, um, it's different for everyone. Everyone has a different needs, some people, or pod-casters, some people are Novelis, some people are, you know, short story writers or poets. Um, but everybody has, uh, you know, the spark inside them, the story to tell everyone has this thing that they maybe need a little guidance getting out[inaudible] isn't there. And I know this is maybe tricky to answer given that this is like your job, but is there a point at which, you know, someone whether aspiring or published or wherever they are on their career path that you would recommend like, yes, you're struggling with this thing. This would be a great time to consult with me or to consult with a, uh, another creativity consultant or book doctor or whatever, versus you're maybe not ready to work with someone yet. I would recommend reading some more books or, you know, and is there, if someone's listening to this and they're on the fence, like, oh, would this service help me or not? How could you guide them to a decision? Oh, that's such a fantastic question. Um, and it's okay. You're a great interviewee because you just so complementary, I feel like I am asking you all the best questions. I mean, you are, no, this is delightful and your wonderful, um, it's, uh, it's so hard because, and, and, you know, I can only speak from my own experience, but, um, I go off and on with working with coaches and consultants myself. And so, um, I, I would never, I say this because I would never want to advise anything for someone else that I wouldn't do for myself. I wouldn't be like, yes, you need a coach at all times. Uh, you know, regardless of what you're going through, because I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that working with a coach or a consultant can often be a jumping off point. It can often be a push or a nudge or a burst of inspiration that we need. And then often we can continue on our way. And then maybe if we hit another rough patch, it's like, oh, it's time to do another session or another consulting session. I think of it a little bit like therapy. Um, and so it's like, do I need to see my therapist this week? It's like, no, I'm doing okay. I can muddle by that being said, um, there have been people who coaches who have come into my life and I didn't think I was ready to work with them. And then I started working with them just because of timing or deadlines or something like that. And they just exploded my brain in the best way. And I was like, I didn't think I was ready for this, but I am in love with everything that's happening. So I don't know if I want to necessarily like persuade people to work with a book coach at this time. Uh, again, it depends where you are, but I think what I do want to encourage people to do is never stop being curious and never stop learning and improving your craft. So whether that is working with a book coach or a creativity consultant, whether that is reading the artist's way by Julia Cameron or, you know, steal like an artist by Austin Kleon, whether that's taking a Marie Forleo or Seth Godin class on copywriting, whatever it is, whatever it is, I want you to always be learning and growing in your craft. And again, um, reading counts, taking classes counts, working with someone counts. It's just what you need at what time in your life. I think. Yeah, that is great advice. I'd add listening to our podcast counts. Yes, that's, that's where I do. Most of my learning and growth is every, uh, for me, every podcast episode that I listened to, if somebody else's is a journal entry for me, so I'll listen, I'll journal along and I'll find something new at the end of every episode I listened to. And it's great. No, I know. And you know, they there's that adage that to truly learn something, you have to teach it. Um, and I know for me doing this podcast and talking to other writers and kind of like putting myself out there as a quote unquote expert, like, yeah, I totally know what I'm talking about, guys, do you, do you know, of course I do. I've written many books, blah, blah, blah. And yet there's always that doubt, that personal doubt. Um, but having the confidence to, um, to talk and to teach, and then also to talk to other writers and be open to learning from them. I have learned so much from the guests on this podcast. Um, and, and I only hope that listeners feel like they're learning as well. Oh, absolutely. I did. I was doing interviews on my show for a while. And like every time I would do an interview with somebody, I would have a full page of notes afterwards, just from everything that I learned. And it was just like, you know, I say podcasting changed my life. It, it was sort of essentially, you know, the first writing coaching that I had in, in a, in a weird kind of way, because you're talking one-on-one with, you know, other, with your peers or experts, depending on how you consider yourself. Yeah, for sure. Um, before we go into our bonus round, I did want to ask a stumbled across something on your website that you host weekly, create a lungs. It sounds like a lot of fun, but it isn't. How can people participate? Oh gosh, you're wonderful. Um, so a weekly create along basically, uh, every Wednesday evening at 7:00 PM central. So that's like 5:00 PM Pacific, uh, 8:00 PM. Eastern took me a second. Um, I host a creative long and I do this on Facebook and on Twitch. So I simultaneously broadcast, I think I also broadcast it to YouTube. Um, so I simultaneously broadcast to all these places and, uh, people show up and what we do is starting at seven. I'll just greet people say, Hey, how are you doing? How's everybody's week? How's your creative, you know, your creative heart and your spirit doing, how are you feeling? What are you working on? Let me know how you're doing. Um, people will start responding in the chat and the comments and I'll feature those comments and we'll have a little discussion. Oh, you know, today Julia is feeling really depressed. Okay, let's talk about this. Uh, we'll do that for about the first 30 minutes. And then at seven 30, we will switch over to creating mode. Uh, during that time, um, I have all sorts of creators who come to this. It's really fun. I have painters. I have quilters, I have knitters. I have writers, podcasters, uh, bakers, all sorts of creative people. And what we do is from seven 30 to eight 30 central, we create. And so I'll sit here. Usually I use that time to write my dear creators newsletter. Um, just because I'm in that kind of vibe. Uh, sometimes I'll work on girl in space, sometimes I'll work on other stuff, but everybody's just working on something different. And, uh, after that hour is over, uh, we'll all come back to the chat. And I'll say, how was that? How did that feel? What did you run into any speed bumps? Um, any resistance that you're feeling, any doubts, let's talk about this. And then we just kinda wrap up the evening for another 30 to 45 minutes, just kinda chatting, uh, and it's super chill. I like to purposefully keep it very chill. Um, it's not like, Hey, you're in the hot seat today. It's not a mastermind. It's very much a laid back community place for people to just explore their own creativity and to feel seen in a creative community. Um, I think that, like you were talking about earlier, Marissa, that create that creative community is so essential. And I think so many of us forget that, or especially in times of COVID, you know, it just slips past us. And we kind of just forget that that's so crucial to our creative development. Um, I also do, since it is a really chill stream, I do also encourage like, Hey, if you're not in a healthy space to create tonight, um, I encourage you just to hang out doodle journal, stare out a window, play some video games, just be here with us in creative community. Um, cause I still think that that is really healthy for people. So thank you for asking about this. I forgot to mention my create alongs earlier and they're just such a huge part of my week. Well, it sounds amazing. And obviously with the lack of festivals and conferences, I know myself, I am so missing, just being with other writers and other creators, and you get such an amazing energy from being in a room full of people who are on the same journey, who get it, you know, and just that vibe is there, that it can't be replaced. Um, but these virtual sort of group meetings, uh, like what you're talking about is it's a close second and that just sounds really fun. And honestly, really relaxing. It is I, I work hard to, to keep it pretty chill because I know so many people lead busy anxious lives. And like often, you know, this Wednesday creed along is the only time they have all week to work on their novel. So I'm like, you know what? This is not pressure. You can just exist with your creativity. And I hope that that takes some of the more negative pressures off. Yeah, well, no, that's awesome. And you know, a lot of times you hear the great advice that like, if you want to write a novel and you're having trouble fitting it into your life to schedule in writing time, like you would schedule in a doctor's appointment and for people who, you know, maybe need an extra push that this might be just the thing that they're looking for. Yeah. It's, it's really cool because I've been doing these for, I think a little over two years now. So it's been awhile and like over those two years, you know, I have regulars who are there every Wednesday and I've seen them create full projects, like getting to, and it's so cool. They're like, yeah, I made this during create along. Here's my book. And it's like, oh my gosh, like, it's so cool. It's so cool. That's all awesome. Cool. Well, I hope some of our listeners will check it out. Yay. All right. You have ready for our bonus round? I think so. I'm a little nervous, but I think so don't be nervous. There's nothing to be scared about. First question tea or coffee both. Oh, no, the word both came out. I'm sorry. I have literally at my left hand, a cup of peppermint tea in my right hand, I have my coffee in it. So I, yeah, I have a problem. Music or silence, silence while I write writing in the morning or at night morning, I used to think I was a night writer and then I was just deluding myself. Kind of want to be the cool night writers. I know, right? It's like a night out. It's like, no, I'm up at six 30 and I'm writing and deal with it. Sunny beach or snowy mountains, snowy mountains. How do you celebrate an accomplishment? I'm really bad at remembering the celebrate accomplishments. And so I need my friends to help me recognize, Hey, you did a thing and you should do something for it. So usually with great reluctance, um, I will take time off, you know, because being self-employed, you're working all the time, so I'll watch a movie or, you know, go on a trip with my husband or what have you. So yeah, I'm bad at it though. What is your personal mantra? Ooh. My personal mantra is make them tell, you know, I spent so much in my life asking for permission that, you know, you got to get really good at it. I'm not sure I'm following that. Make them tick. No. Yes. Um, make them tell, you know, this, this was advice that I got, uh, back when I was in. So I was in marketing for 10 years and just was sort of in this mindset that things would kind of like come to you if you, if you were good and you were obedient and you earned them like, oh, karma, okay. You know, if I'm good at my job, I'll get a raise. And you know, at that time it was really hard for me to ask for things. I was really scared because I didn't want to be seen as like ladder climbing or greedy. And I went through this women's leadership program and one of the speakers, uh, Joanie Cutler, who I will never forget. She just, it was during a Q and a session. It was a little throwaway line, but she said, you know what? You ask them for that raise, you ask for that promotion. You make them tell you no, no is the worst thing that somebody can say, right? They're not going to like take you out to the street and like to say, no, it is, it is. Um, but you know what, if you go in there and you say, you know what, the worst thing that can happen is that they're going to tell me no. Okay. I'm not going to die. And you know, that's the worst that can happen. Fine. I'll just go for it. If they tell me no, I will accept it. And I will move on with my life. So I walk into a situation and say, you know, I'm just gonna, you know what, I'd like a raise and then they have to tell me no. Yeah. Sounds good. Advice. I like it. What book makes you happy? Like every book, um, I'm like desperately looking at. So right now I'm reading my heart is a chainsaw by Stephen Graham Jones. And it's wonderful. I don't know if listeners here love horror. It's fantastic. Um, but I also have like my comfort reads that I keep on the side of my bedside table. Um, oh gosh. And I have like childhood books. They're like the Western game and the China garden and yeah. So I think maybe those are the books that will all books make me happy. Let's just be honest. Fair enough. What are you working on next next? I'm working on season two of girl in space and, um, I'm writing it right now and it's hard and there's this novel that I want to work on. That's glowing right outside of my peripheral vision and keeps threatening to distract me. So the novel is next girl in spaces. Now, lastly, where can people find you? Oh, how wonderful. Um, people can find me out@sarahwarner.com. That's S a R a H w E R N E r.com. There's links out there to the right now podcasts girl in space. My dear creators newsletter my ride alongs. I have a Ted talk. Uh, people can also find me on social media. I'm mostly on Twitter and Instagram. If you look up Sarah Ray Werner, all one word. S H R H w E R N E R. Uh, come hang out with me. Connect with me. I would love to, uh, to get in touch with you and to, you know, talk writing. Awesome. Sarah, thank you so much for joining me today, Marissa. Thank you. This has been an actual true joy and I'm so happy that we connected. I am too. It was a really, really fun conversation and I'm feeling so inspired. I can't wait to go write yay readers. I hope that you will check out Sarah's right now, podcast. The girl in space, audio drama, all the other many things that she talked about, we can all just stay inspired together. Next week. Next week, I will be talking to Ayana gray about her debut fantasy novel beasts of prey. I hope that you'll join us. If you're enjoying these conversations, please be sure to subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy in this fall weather and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.

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