Nail Your Descriptions and Emotional Action Scenes with Ayana Gray - Beasts of Prey

Marissa chats with Ayana Gray about her debut young adult fantasy - BEASTS OF PREY - as well as using online resources to learn from other writers about the publishing journey, and as a way to know that you're not alone; choosing your descriptive words carefully in order to evoke a particular feeling, whether you're describing a minor character or a great mythical beast inspired by real-world lore; striking that balance between fast-paced action and deep emotional moments, even when they both need to happen in a single scene (hint: sometimes your story - and characters - just need to pause and take a breath); using backstory and motivation to get your readers invested in your protagonist's emotional journey; and giving yourself permission to pursue a career in writing, despite the naysayers.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 0:12

Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. One thing that is making me happy this week is teenage mutant ninja turtles heroes in the half shell because it is my kids new obsession. I didn't realize they were making new teenage mutant ninja turtles cartoons, but they're making new ones. And so it's like new and popular to the kids all over again. And it feels, it feels very full circle because, Hey, that was one of my obsessions when I was like six years old. And so it has just been a weird blast from the past, watching my kids, you know, they each have their favorite Sloan likes Michelangelo, and Delaney has a huge crush on Donnie and they made their own nunchucks and weapons and pretending to be the T it's just so stinking cute. So that has been bringing me a lot of joy watching them the last few days. And I am of course also so happy to be talking to today's guest. She is a New York times and indie best-selling author of speculative fiction and her debut novel beasts of prey came out this past September and is currently being adapted into film by Netflix. Please. Welcome Aiyana gray.

Speaker 3: 1:46

Hello.

Speaker 2: 1:48

Hello and welcome.

Speaker 3: 1:51

Thank you so, so much.

Speaker 2: 1:53

So as of this recording, I know the book has been out for a few weeks. Congratulations. Uh, I has it just been like a complete whirlwind?

Speaker 3: 2:05

That is actually exactly the word I used. It's been a wonderful whirlwind and I know, you know, earlier I, the, the really good analogy. Geez, it's very much like a marathon, so there's this big lead-up and it's this long race. You don't know how it will end. Um, and so it's just really nice to finally be kind of, you know, through the, the, uh, suddenly I can't think of words, of course, past the, kind of the checkered flag and, and, um, you know, I'm exhausted, but also just, I feel so happy. Like, yes, I, this lifelong dream is done or not done, but I've accomplished this thing that I've wanted my whole life. And, um, and just really elated.

Speaker 2: 2:46

It is an enormous accomplishment and one that we work in dream of for so long that when it happens, I know there's kind of a surreal quality to it. It

Speaker 3: 2:59

Does. It truly

Speaker 2: 3:00

Does. Yeah. And then they're immediately your publishers immediately, like, okay, next book, keep going. Yep.

Speaker 3: 3:08

Yep. What will you write next?

Speaker 2: 3:10

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Um, oh, and also I have to say congratulations on being on good morning, America. How cool is that? What was that even like?

Speaker 3: 3:21

Oh, my, it was so much, it was fun, but also so terrifying. Um, you know, I thought back to, you know, when you're a little kid and you've got some sort of recital at school when it's the scariest thing, and you're just, you're so nervous. I haven't been that nervous in a very long time. And I'm somebody who is pretty comfortable with public speaking at this point. Um, but I was so scared that I was going to mess up stutter, cough, randomly sneeze, um, forget what my book was about. And, um, and you know, everyone was just so, so kind, um, especially Michael stray Han, who was the person I got to speak with it, good morning America. And he actually came right before we went live and just started to talk to me and congratulate me and was so kind and what that did, was it really, like, it made it less scary and more like, I was just talking to somebody so that when we did go live, it was just kind of a continuation of, of the conversation we were, we were already having. Um, and that, and it was like talking to my dad. He's so, so nice. Um, and then it was done. It was, it was, it went by super fast.

Speaker 2: 4:26

That's incredible. That's such a hallmark of a good interviewer that someone can, you don't take someone who was really nervous and terrified and kind of put them at ease. And I'm always so impressed with people like that. Like it's like its own form of magic.

Speaker 3: 4:42

It is, it is. And just, I mean, he was so warm. And then after the interview, he came over and talked with my mom and I, so it felt very genuine and not just like, oh, Hey, let's do this interview with him. Then move on to the next thing he seemed genuinely interested in was really supportive and kind. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:58

Well, I will say that you did not appear nervous at all, so you totally hit it really well. Okay. So I want to know before we get into talking about beasts of prey, the first question I like to ask guests is what is your origin story that might be, how did you first know that you wanted to be a writer or how did this book come to get published? Uh, whatever that means to you, how would you describe your origin story?

Speaker 3: 5:30

Oh gosh. Um, it's bad that I instantly thought of villain origin story because I just, I loved it when origin stories. Um, They're really fun and I love complicated villains, but anyway, um, let's see. Okay. Origin story. I, um, was born. I say I'm born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia, even though, um, I now live in little rock Arkansas and really have spent about half of, yeah. About half my life in little rock Arkansas or an Arkansas. Um, but born and raised in Atlanta. That's where I grew up. That's where I learned to ride a bike. And when I think about my childhood, it's, you know, it's in Atlanta, pretty normal middle class family. I was not sporty. I was not great at math and science, but I loved loved books and reading. And by default writing, I loved creative arts. I love to draw, I loved theater. So, you know, this is starting to take, take a really shape. You can tell what kind of kid I was. Um, sounds a lot like me as a kid, honestly, I think kindred souls, I think kindred spirits and kindred souls, um, very much using the right side of my brain, which makes sense because I'm left-handed um, and just, yeah, you know, I, I think, um, you know, I moved around quite a bit starting maybe when I was about nine or 10 years old and then was the new kid every year for let's see, fourth grade, fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade and eighth grade. So all of those years I was new trying to find friends. And the consistent thing that I had was always was books. Um, and so I kind of buried myself in them and I would write stories. They were not like strictly fan fiction in the sense that like, I didn't, I didn't like say do a continuation of an existing story and do whatever I want to put the characters, but I would like rewrite familiar stories, but I would insert my friends and I having these great adventures. And, and I kind of wrote everything, historical fiction, contemporary fantasy, probably more fantasy than anything else. Um, and I did that all through high school. Um, I'm a millennial I'm like right in the middle of the millennials too. So I grew up, I was a teenager during the Y boom. And you know, this moment when Y really, really blew up and everything was a franchise and massive. And so that had a really deep impact on me as somebody who loves to read, um, I admired, you know, these authors who just seem to be living the dream, but it felt incredibly unattainable. I'm the oldest in my family. And I have a deep sense of responsibility make, make plans, don't do anything to, uh, to rash. So, um, I decided, I decided I wanted to be a lawyer, you know, that seemed reasonable. That that felt good. Like, um, I was really interested in social justice and specifically actually immigration. I wanted to be an immigration lawyer with the hope of helping to unite families, helping families who wanted to adopt. Um, that was just something I thought, you know, because it, when I was what 14, 15, I felt like that's where the world is heading. I should, I should get involved in that. So I had this, this plan, um, that I held on to for most of high school and through most of college where I was going to be an lawyer. And then halfway through college, I got really disillusioned with the us justice system and, and, uh, realized it may. It really wasn't what I wanted to do with my life. You know, I still had this belief in social justice. I still believed in everything, but I wasn't sure being a lawyer was the best way to be an advocate. Um, that was a really good thing to have before I took the LSF before I went to law school. Um, but it left me a little bit of alert because the degrees that I'd gotten in African and African-American studies and, um, and in political science, I had gotten those with the eye to become a lawyer and suddenly I wasn't going to be a lawyer anymore. So I moved back home and was feeling pretty defeated. You know, my friends were going off and traveling the world, going to med school, going to law school, um, whatever it was. And I was home with my parents. And I didn't realize that that's actually quite normal for me. I felt like, oh my gosh, I failed. And I turned to the thing that, you know, I knew I turned to writing, um, reading and writing, I should say. And I had, while I was in college, I had studied abroad in Ghana and I'd taken a course called political violence where we talked a lot about good and evil and moral ambiguity. Um, and those things were in my head and I started to write about them. And that was sort of how beasts of prey came about, uh, years and years ago.

Speaker 2: 10:27

What an excellent story. I wish that when I started this podcast, I would have been like keeping track of some things. Cause I feel like the, the creative type who went off to college to become a lawyer and then later changed their minds and was like, let's be a writer. Instead. I feel like that was a story that comes up a lot. And there's, there's like a pattern there that I feel like is important somehow.

Speaker 3: 10:55

Yeah, I, I think so. Um, I think as creatives, we're not, we're not often encouraged to chase those dreams and, and consider real professions and creative fields because we're told that it's not sustainable. Um, you can't make a living doing it. Um, and I say that, you know, as someone who's now totally self-employed as, as an author. Um, you know, and I don't know if I, I knew or if I really had a lot of people in my life at an early age who told me that was possible and I think it's changing, but it's still death. There's still definitely a stigma around pursuing professions in the creative creative spaces.

Speaker 2: 11:37

No, definitely. And you mentioned the word unattainable earlier, and it is this sort of career that feels unattainable and you hear statistics and, you know, stories of rejection and in all of this. And I know for me going through college and wanting to be a writer and my backup plan was like, I was going to go into publishing. I was like, well, maybe I'll be an editor or a publicist or something if this writing thing doesn't work out. Um, and so I feel like we all kind of had that backup plan and it's hard to give yourself permission, I think, to pursue it wholeheartedly, you know?

Speaker 3: 12:17

Yeah. Oh, I absolutely agree. It's funny how, um, at least for me, there were moments along my journey where I felt like people were giving me permission and it was like, as soon as they said, you can do this, I was like, oh, I can do this. And it was really empowering.

Speaker 2: 12:32

Yeah, it is empowering. I know, I, cause I didn't know any writers growing up or even into my twenties, I didn't know any professional writers. Um, but I remember looking at my bookshelf and thinking, well, they did it, all of these people that, these names that I see on the spines of these books, they did it. Why can't I do it? And yeah, but, but you have to kind of psych yourself up for it a bit.

Speaker 3: 13:01

And I think another thing about writing specifically, because you know, you have, I always think of it in pools that get smaller and smaller w you have the entertainment pool. So that includes actors, actresses, um, singers, you know, that includes everybody who performs in and in some way, entertains athletes as well. But writing specifically is a very solitary, um, thing up until the time when your book is launching. And then it's time to talk about it with everyone. Um, because it's solitary and kind of one of the more, um, opaque kinds of entertainment. It's just hard to know, like there's not a path, right. Um, that's, that's very clear unless you do the research when you're a singer, you're like, okay, get a record deal. That's not how I become a famous singer, get a record deal. Um, when you are an actor actresses, it's, it's get the, get the part for a movie. When you're an athlete. We know about the various pro leagues, NBA, NFL, pro tennis, whatever it may be. Um, but with writing, you're like, okay, there's, there's indie, there's self pub, there's small press, there's traditional. And there's just a lot of information to suss out, to even figure out your path.

Speaker 2: 14:16

No, that's a really great point. Um, and I, I also, like, I think back to pre-internet era and how intimidating that must have been to take a, you know, a physical copy of a manuscript and package it up and mail it off with your query letter to someone and cross your fingers, it would have been. So like, I have no idea. I'm just sending it out into the editor. At least these days we have, you know, online resources and lots of authors have blogs or podcasts, or, you know, various things that we can least kind of get a feel for maybe how other people have done it. Um, and yet everyone's journey is different. There is no just one way to do it.

Speaker 3: 15:03

Oh, exactly. And I think about, I don't think I could have, my journey would look vastly different without even just the internet and podcasts. I learned so much from podcasts and listening to other authors who I admired, you know, and hearing them normalize. It's okay. If you got rejected this many times I did too, because if you don't have that context, you're like, oh my gosh, I've been rejected. That must mean no one wants it. That must mean I should give up. I had so much context and so much information to read about and, you know, the ability to read about different literary agents and to email. And I mean, I found my literary agent through a Twitter event. So my, yeah. So my, my entire story would look different without modern technology.

Speaker 2: 15:48

Yeah. No, it's so true. And you're so right. Just hearing other people's stories and struggles and knowing, because like you said, it, isn't a kind of an isolated career. It's so helpful to know that you're not alone on this path, whatever you're experiencing, lots of other authors have gone through it and come out. Okay. On the other side.

Speaker 3: 16:15

Yes.

Speaker 2: 16:17

Okay. Let's switch gears before we totally run out of time because we need to talk about your debut novel beasts of prey. Could you please tell listeners what is it about?

Speaker 3: 16:30

Sure. So these, the prey is a young adult fantasy. It's also a Pan-African inspired fantasy and it's the story of two teenagers named Kofi at icon who come from very different walks of life. Although they live in the same city, Kofi is a girl who is indentured at a magical zoo, um, where there are, you know, a zoo full of creatures and just yeah. Dangerous animals. Um, and econ is a warrior in training who is on the cusp of becoming, initiated, becoming a warrior. And in doing so fulfilling kind of this family tradition that has, you know, his father and brother and all the men in his family have also fulfilled. And then, uh, as happens one night, um, coping that Conn's paths cross in a very unexpected way. And they ended up deciding to work together to go into a magical jungle that borders the city so that they can hunt down a monster called the Chatani. And the Chatani, no one has seen it before, or no one has seen it and lived to tell the tale. Um, this monster has been menacing, the city killing people by night, every, you know, almost every night for 99 years. And they both want to catch it for different reasons. So they go together into this jungle and the minute they step foot into this jungle, which is also full of mythical creatures and gods and goddesses and such, um, nothing goes as planned. They get far more than they bargained for and adventure ensues and maybe a little bit of romance.

Speaker 2: 17:57

Yes. Maybe a little bit of romance, which everyone who listens knows is my favorite part of everything without giving away any spoilers. I have to say the last, maybe like 30 to 40 pages are such an extreme roller coaster and you just tore my heart out over and over. So are we looking at a duology a trilogy? What's the plan. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 18:34

Um, the first of the trilogy, um, which may be good or bad news, you know, because I booked two I've written book two and revising it now, but, um, it also ends on a fun, you know, I would say the end of book two is, is just as a heartbreaking,

Speaker 2: 18:52

Good to know. I'll brace myself

Speaker 3: 18:56

Two more books to, uh, to, um, absolutely wreck Kofi and icons wellbeing for the sake of entertainment.

Speaker 2: 19:03

Awesome. So do you have a plan? I mean, obviously I don't want you to give anything away, but do you feel like, you know, where the story is heading?

Speaker 3: 19:12

Um, it's murky and it's kind of like, you know, as a writer, everything's an analogy. Um, it's a bit like driving in the dark, so you're driving slowly and you can kind of make out things, you know, further out, but you won't know till you get right up close to it. Um, so I know pieces, but I, you know, there have been times when I plotted out something like, yep, this is what I'm going to do. And then it doesn't go that way. When it comes time to actually write, I was actually talking with them, I got to be part of Margaret Rogers, sons lunch a few days ago. And Margaret Rogers, who was one of my favorite writers ever. And she, uh, myself and Chloe gong, we're all kind of in this event together. We're all, plotters, we're all architects. We're all people who like to plan out our stories in advance. But we were, what we realized is all three of us, we plot up into a point, but then the writing takes over and you go in a different direction than you were planning. And you just, you know, sometimes it's a better idea. Um, that's, that's a super long answer, but

Speaker 2: 20:19

No, but you're speaking my language. I mean, that's like the story of my life right there, plot plot plot. Oh, it all fell apart.

Speaker 3: 20:26

Yeah. That's exactly what happens every time. So, you know, I could have an idea for how it's all going to end and that can be totally debunked by the time it gets it, by the time it's actually time for me to write that moment.

Speaker 2: 20:38

Yeah. Well, there's lots of time and I'll, I'll be excited to read the next books when they come out. Thing that I loved. Um, the first thing that I want to talk about is the actual beast, uh, mentioned in the title beasts of prey because the book that, uh, that I just finished writing that's coming out in November, also deals with a lot of mythological creatures and beasts. And in my version, um, I took a lot from like Germanic and Norse mythology, which as I was writing, I didn't realize how much, I didn't know what I didn't know. And then I started researching, I'm like, oh my gosh. There's so this is so just lush. There's so many options. So many creatures, monsters mythology that I didn't, I wasn't familiar with and then diving into your book. And it was like opening up a whole new world of mythological creatures that were new and fascinating and so cool and creepy. So on that, I'd love to know, first of all, how much of the creatures in this book come from actual mythology versus your imagination and what was your research process like?

Speaker 3: 22:00

Most of the creatures and base to pray are, do come from different lore across the African continent. Um, and I did that on purpose. You know, I've talked about be Supreme being Penn, African Penn means all. And I wanted to write a story that really celebrated the different mythologies and Laura's, you know, all over the continent. Um, so I would say probably like 90% of the creatures are, you know, you could look them up and there are, I don't want to say real creatures because of course they're not real, but they are based in some kind of lore. Um, there were a few liberties I took and they were small. Um, there was a creature, um, that I thought, you know, and you see him early in the story. I think it's actually one of the first creatures that you meet. That was just a bit of wish fulfillment for me because actually there's not much history of dragons on the African continent. There are a lot of creatures, but not any that are to me, very dragon lake that I was able to find. Um, and I read fantasy and I love dragons.

Speaker 2: 23:05

I had to be in dragon.

Speaker 3: 23:07

There had to be a dragon, but for the most part, I mean the rest of the story, the creatures who Kofi and Eikon encounter in the jungle, the greater jungle, um, those are all based in, in different mythologies.

Speaker 2: 23:21

Did you? I find it different because one of the challenges for me when I was trying to like, describe some of the monsters from, you know, at least say Germanic lore, uh, knowing that a lot of my readers like me would not have been familiar with these creatures. And suddenly it became like a lot of pressure to describe things that have the tendency to just sound really bizarre. And yet we're trying to make them creepy or terrifying or whatever it is. How was that a challenge for you as well?

Speaker 3: 24:02

Yeah, it was. And it's funny because one of my editors notes that I remember distinctly after she acquired beasts of prey, was she wanted more specific description. I think I had subconsciously avoided description because I wanted readers to use their own imaginations. And I still think, I still think that should, that should happen. Um, but I also understand that there's a need to have some descriptors, uh, in, so in a lot of lower across the African continent, you have a theme where there, there will be animal a plus animal, be smashed together in this terrifying way. Um, like a mouse in a rhino. And you're like, what? That's, that's super hard to describe, but, um, yeah, it, it actually, it, it pushed me as a writer, um, to kind of use words and use really specific vocabulary that was unsettling and Erie, um, to kind of, uh, to evoke whatever feeling I wanted in that moment. Um, yeah, it's hard, but also super fun. And also it's really great for readers too, to fill in those gaps in, you know, what does a mouse in a rhino combined look like something awful,

Speaker 2: 25:21

Right? You don't want to know where

Speaker 3: 25:23

Do you yeah. Yes, it is. It is hard though. And it is also really fun. Um, with you, you mentioned kind of getting into dramatic mythology, um, discovering new kinds of creatures. It was just a really fun part of the research process.

Speaker 2: 25:39

Yeah, no, I agree. I had so much fun researching and writing, but then I know, like in reading your book and like getting to know even new spectacular characters, it almost becomes like an exercise of imagination and it's like, we get stuck with, you know, the dragons and the unicorns and yeah, those are great, whatever, but it's so refreshing to know, like there's a lot more out there in the mythologies of the world that you would never have considered before. It's yeah.

Speaker 3: 26:11

It's so much fun. Um, and I think about, you know, when I was a kid, I loved mythology, but I literally did not know that there was any kind of mythology besides Greco, Roman mythology. I mean, I love, I love Greco-Roman with Al I just finished reading Searcy and yes, I know I'm way behind.

Speaker 2: 26:29

I know,

Speaker 3: 26:32

You know why, but it's, it's, I'm glad that I waited. It's, it's a fabulous book. Um, but I kind of enjoyed like kind of having it to myself, not in the middle. I mean, it's still pretty hyped, but I, so I kind of like finding books after they've had their big launch and I don't know something about it's fun. Um, but all that to say, you know, Greco, Roman mythology is fabulous. I love it. But if I had known as a kid, that there were, there was so much more, it's like being a kid in a candy shop, you just, you can never have too much. So

Speaker 2: 27:03

No, I feel that we would fairytales. And it's like, you know, of course I started with grim and loved grim stories, but then once you start to realize like, wait, Japan also really has cool folktales, await India also has really great stories. Like, and then suddenly it's like, you know, like a kid in a candy store, that's a perfect way to describe it.

Speaker 3: 27:23

I mean, I can't get enough and I still look for more and I read, you know, I have like me and I, we talking about Indian mythology, Ross need to talk. She has beautiful. I do too. And she's someone who loves history and genuinely loves re and you can tell when you read her work, um, it's, it's just so much fun to discover new pieces. And, you know, in doing that, you start to see the similarities and realize that humans have always shared that common identity. We have different ways of telling stories and lessons, but at the heart of it, um, there's a lot more that we share and a lot more that we have that, that we have in common and as opposed to what makes us different.

Speaker 2: 28:03

That is so true. And one of the favorite things that I love about these stories is how universal so many of the themes are. Yes. All right. I want to go back a little bit to talking about descriptions, um, not necessarily for your monsters, but one of the things, and in this book that brought me so much delight is that you have this way of describing even like your minor characters in a way that is super fun and interesting. And it made me like, and I actually, as I was reading it, I was starting to feel inspired like with my own writing, like I am learning from this. I can do better because I feel like it's so easy when you have a minor character, you know, someone you're only gonna see on the page, you know, for a few paragraphs. And they're not really important to the story. And as a writer, I think it's, there's this tendency to take the easy way out. And like, maybe we give them a hair color and then we move on. Um, but you made every one of them seems so interesting. And I actually, I wrote one down, so I'm going to read a line from the book. I know it's weird to hear your own words, but this is so good. The old man had a stoop back, a sagging belly and a concerning amount of white hair peeking out of his ears. I love that. I think it's hysterical. And I used to, as soon as you read that, you're like, I know person,

Speaker 3: 29:43

It's a cranky old man. That's a cranky

Speaker 2: 29:45

Old man. And he's, again, he's a minor character, but I just love that. We get to know these people, even in just these, these little couple of lines. So is that something that you, as a writer, you focus on you think about, or is it just kind of a natural part of your style? Where did that come from?

Speaker 3: 30:10

I think that's, um, first of all, thank you. I, you can't see it, but I'm beaming because that's so kind of you to say, um, I think that's an example of what I, what I always say whenever I get asked, you know, advice for aspiring writers, I say read because you soak so much in the best, the best teacher is a book itself, reading, reading books, you really enjoy reading books. You don't enjoy. And just taking kind of those mental notes and absorbing. Um, you can do a lot of legwork in a short amount of time, just in the way you describe, you know, just, you know, a line or two of description about a character and the way you describe a character should change based on whose perspective you're working through. So for example, when Kofi describes her, her master, the man who owns the night and Xu pause the way she describes him is this mountain of it. She calls him a mountain of a man. He is domineering. He is scary because he can punish her and he can punish her family. And, you know, in the words that you use kind of evoke a certain tone, whereas[inaudible] sees the same man, you know, that same night actually, but later, and the way he looks at him is here's this guy that kind of dresses in cheap clothes. And isn't all that impressive because his relationship is different with that, man. Um, you know, it's something that my, I think to my literary agent really encouraged me to think about all the senses, engaging all the senses when you're describing worlds and describing characters. What's the smell that character who, I think you were that lawn, you read, you know, accounts like, oh, I don't like that guy. He smells like old lagoons, you know? Um, and that tells you about a constant relationship with him, but also it just, uh, you know, it, it makes you kind of have very specific feelings about that old man, because there, there are other elderly characters in the story, but the way they're described is, is different. So I don't know, I, I tend to kind of go all over the place with these questions. I'm sorry.

Speaker 2: 32:15

I love

Speaker 3: 32:16

It. I think, I think part of it is, is just what I've learned from reading and watching the way certain characters have been described and how it, how it impacts how I see them. And then part of it is as a writer, you know, going back and, and trying to paint that picture, gosh, Rosh knee was it rushed me. I really hope it was Rodney that said it. Um, recently we've talked, we were talking about how we are artists and we have to make colors out of black and white, you know, so all we have is black and black and white pages, ink, and ink and paper, but we're painting pictures with color and with senses and with, with, with noise and it's really kind of a magic and an alchemy

Speaker 2: 33:01

That is so beautiful. It absolutely sounds like something that Rashmi would say

Speaker 3: 33:05

Doesn't, it is poetic that way. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:11

Um, so that is a perfect segue into another thing that I wanted to talk with you about is writing big emotions. Uh there's uh, I mean, there's of course, chapters throughout this book that are intense, um, and you know, just where characters are experiencing a lot. Um, one in particular that happens pretty early on and I'll just call it the fire chapter so that we don't give too much away. Um, but I felt like I was there not only did I feel like I was there, I felt like I was in coffee's head in her heart feeling everything she was feeling in this moment. And I know from experience that it is difficult to write a scene that is both big and explosive and action packed, but also very emotional and heart-wrenching and I thought that it was balanced beautifully. How did you do that?

Speaker 3: 34:19

Oh my God. So that's the thing again. Thank you so, so much. It's, um, I'll be honest. It's hard to explain how I do it. I, and I don't know,

Speaker 2: 34:31

Kind of tongue in cheek when I ask these questions, I'm like, I don't know. There's all, you know, magic.

Speaker 3: 34:37

I totally, I totally ask. I totally ask other writers, like, Hey, you made me cry in this page. How did you do that

Speaker 2: 34:44

Down for me? Exactly.

Speaker 3: 34:47

I think, um, again, it's sort of, it's sort of learning, um, what you do, I think. Okay. So I can say from a, a craft perspective, something I've learned is the more you can make your reader or your audience identify and connect with the main character or the point of view through which they're experiencing the story. Um, the closer you can bring them to that the more acutely they feel emotion. And so Kofi, um, at the beginning of the story, she and her family are very, very, very close to a goal that they've been working toward for years. And she talks about it. Her family talks about it. And so the hope is that, you know, you want, you are close to Kofi. You understand how badly she wants this. You not only that, you know, how, what she's done, how hard she's worked, you know, how close they are, so that when that thing that she wants gets ripped away, you feel it because, you know, kind of like, um, in real life, you know, if you've ever watched, I don't know, um, the Olympics actually. Yeah. You know, when you watch the Olympics and they have those narrative kind of takeaway stories where they go behind the scenes and show you the athletes and they tell their personal stories about what they did to get there. Um, and when you know that background story, you cheer for them. Cause you were like, gosh, you've been working since you were three years old, you deserve this gold medal. Um, whereas you know, just a random athlete on TV. You're like, oh, I'm not personally invested in this. Um, and so I think

Speaker 2: 36:25

Analogy a great way to think of it. I am the

Speaker 3: 36:27

Queen of analogies,

Speaker 2: 36:30

Some great ones.

Speaker 3: 36:31

Give me a random, a random problem. I will come up with some strange out of the box and analogy for you. Um, but, but I really do think, um, that is how, at least for me, that's how I, I think that's why and how emotion feels big and be surprised because I try to really let you or let readers into their lives and, and show you who they are. They really, really want these things. Um, and so when they are, when their heartbreaks, you know exactly why, and you know exactly why it hurts and, and you can empathize with them because you've been through the journey and they told you all about themselves and buried their souls. Um, yeah. And then some of it's just instinctual, like, Hm. My characters seem too happy time to change that.

Speaker 2: 37:19

Yeah. Oh gosh. And that the truth. No, I it's. It's interesting because on a craft level, I'm thinking for me when I'm writing, like some of these big emotional moments in early drafts, I feel like my tendency is to pull back from the emotion. Um, and I think that's maybe born out of a fear of like, oh no, am I getting too close into mellow drama? Or am I, is it starting to just sound cheesy now? And so I'm always like, okay, let's move on and start running for our lives again, get back to something, you know, safer. Um, and then it's usually not until the later drafts when I maybe feel a little bit more comfortable, maybe feel like I know this character, I understand where their heart is a bit more that now I can dig a little deeper into those emotions. Is that similar for you? Or do you feel like you can lean into this right away?

Speaker 3: 38:20

Oh, I think, yeah. I think I'm, I'm like you in that, you know, there is an emotional beat, but I have to get through those first few drafts before I can expand it. And really, and really, I mean, I know this moment should be sad. It should be a big moment. And I D and, you know, I write it's a draft, but I, I think like you, I don't lean into it until later when I know the characters better. And I've kind of built in more layers. I used to not write emotional beats at all in one of my critique partners. Like you've got to have some beats where we check in with these characters and see how they're doing a lot of it's happening to them. I mean, I used to not do it at all. And it was, that was one of my like journeys as a writer that it transformed my writing that one little piece of advice where it's like, stop and check in, because I'm thinking, oh, readers, don't, you know, a reader doesn't want to hear how they're doing. Like that's boring, but no having quieter moments between all the action packed things where we just check in, um, you know, allow the characters to be sad, to be angry, you know, whatever. And my editor, um, pointed this out too. She was like, you have the space to do it, take advantage of that real estate, like the reader, the reader, you know, won't mind, you know, taking them, taking a breath. Um, that was one of those things that, that transformed my entire writing style. Really.

Speaker 2: 39:40

Yeah. No, and that makes much sense. And I feel like that's where, you know, that's where the character arc happens, you know, that's where they're learning and deciding where they're going to head next and recovering from the things they've been through. And that's where they change and grow.

Speaker 3: 39:55

Yep. I absolutely agree. It's, it's a really great way to show growth in a character.

Speaker 2: 40:00

Yeah. Super important. Don't forget the emotional beats. Good advice. Okay. Before we get onto our happy writer bonus round, um, I have to ask what's happening with Netflix.

Speaker 3: 40:18

Um, besides me just like Ben girling and screaming regularly. Um, I still can't believe it. Like people, people ask me and I'm like, what? Um, so, uh, I am really, really happy and really lucky that in addition to one of my favorite streaming channels, and I'm, I'm genuinely saying that not because of what's happened, but Netflix makes so many shows that I DOR, um, besides that being really cool, um, and happening, I'm really lucky that clubhouse pictures, um, and Brian[inaudible] and melody Cooper who were all kind of, um, you know, working with me on, on adapting beasts to pray have been really interested in hearing my voice, hearing my thoughts and trying to stay as true to the book as possible. I think that's a fear whether, you know, in any adaptation it's a fear, um, that every author has, is the movie going to be totally different than the book, but really from the very beginning, um, you know, they, they asked to have a creative call and just said, what's most important to you? What is the heart of the story? What are the central themes? And we've gotten to talk about, you know, where would, where would you like to shoot? And they have ideas to hopefully maybe fingers crossed, um, she on the African continent, which would be so cool. That would be actually, yeah. Um, people don't, I don't know if people do you know this, but, you know, even movies like black Panther, um, we're not filming, it's like on the African continent, they were filmed in a studio in America. Like a lot of films are. And so the idea of getting to actually go and film, you know, in these, on the continent where, you know, the story hasn't so much inspiration would be so cool. Um, Melanie Cooper, who's writing the script she has been to, I believe it was Tanzania. Um, and so when she read the surprise, she instantly got it. She is a black woman and just really understood what I was trying to do and say with the book. And that, that means a lot to me. Um, so, you know, it's early days, but lots and lots of re a reason to be excited.

Speaker 2: 42:32

Awesome. I'm so happy to hear it. And so happy to hear that you are, as of right now, a huge part of that creative process. Cause I know exactly what you're saying, that it's a fear that someone will take our beloved book and run away with it

Speaker 3: 42:49

And then it will become something totally different. Yeah. Um, yeah, but I, I don't have that fear and I'm really happy about that. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:56

And did you say, is it they thinking film or series,

Speaker 3: 43:02

Um, film, which I think there'll be, I think it'll be, it'll be, um, kind of cool to see it in, in one. I don't even, you can see how experienced I am and film terminology kind of to see it not broken out, but in one, one length of space, I guess. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:19

Oh, it would be epic. It would be absolutely epic. I'm so excited for you.

Speaker 3: 43:23

Thank you.

Speaker 2: 43:25

All right. On that level, are you ready for the bonus

Speaker 3: 43:28

Round? I'm ready.

Speaker 2: 43:31

First question tea or coffee

Speaker 3: 43:34

T got it. I knew that one.

Speaker 2: 43:38

These are not supposed to be trick questions. Elite warrior or secret magician.

Speaker 3: 43:47

Ooh, elite warrior,

Speaker 2: 43:50

Snake or elephant

Speaker 3: 43:54

Elephant,

Speaker 2: 43:56

Which people haven't read the book yet. Go read the book and you'll understand why that question is there.

Speaker 3: 44:02

And also, I just love elephants. I love

Speaker 2: 44:05

Elephants too. Oh, that's right. I saw something in your authors know about talking about, um, uh, elephant, ivory, poaching. And it's like, my heart just breaks every time I even think about it.

Speaker 3: 44:17

Yep. There's um, there's a character and be surprised who's named after an elephant.

Speaker 2: 44:23

I love that elephants are so cool. Protect the elephants, protect

Speaker 3: 44:27

Them at all costs. Okay. Sorry.

Speaker 2: 44:30

What is favorite writing snack?

Speaker 3: 44:34

Um, I'm weird. I don't have a snack. I, but I love to drink ginger ale.

Speaker 2: 44:40

How do you celebrate an accomplishment?

Speaker 3: 44:45

Oh, um, I will order my favorite. Well, okay. Like today I ordered my favorite food from one of my favorite restaurant local restaurant, um, which is kind of just the classic American burger style place. Um, that's really tasty. And then I will treat myself to a movie or I really like stand up comedy actually. It's just really fun too. It's just fun to laugh. Um, you know, and I, yeah, so I will just kind of let myself, I'm very, um, like kind of go, go, go, go, go. So sometimes I'll just let myself have a day where I can just Netflix binge and just do nothing, but eat delicious food and relax and unplug my phone.

Speaker 2: 45:35

That sounds delightful. What book makes you happy?

Speaker 3: 45:44

Oh, um, so sorcery of thorns by Margaret Rogerson, but more recently, um, little thieves by Margaret Owen that book's not out until next week. I think

Speaker 2: 45:59

So much about that book.

Speaker 3: 46:01

You and you know, what you would enjoy it because it is also inspired kind of by Germanic lore.

Speaker 2: 46:08

I did not know that.

Speaker 3: 46:09

Oh yes. And like the term and like, she, I don't know if it's genuine German, but the words in this world that she uses sound very German.

Speaker 2: 46:19

I was already on my radar. I will put it on the list. The never ending list. Yes.

Speaker 3: 46:27

It was such a delight to read. And you know, sometimes you read a book and are sad when it's over, like genuinely, you know, you were in that world for that space of time. Um, and that's how I felt with sorcery of thorns and also with little thieves. So, yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:42

Nice. What is your personal mantra?

Speaker 3: 46:48

Oh, um, my personal mantra. That's a good one, I think is, um, that's hard. Sorry. I don't, what I'm doing is I'm there several, um, I'm trying to pick which one I want. It's like, no pressure. This is, this is the mantra. I think I can

Speaker 2: 47:14

Change it after this. This is it for all time.

Speaker 3: 47:18

It's going on a tattoo. I think it's, um, nothing in life worth. Anything comes easy.

Speaker 2: 47:24

Hm. Good one.

Speaker 3: 47:26

There we go. Got to at the end. You did.

Speaker 2: 47:31

Okay. We kind of covered this already, but what are you working on next? Or what can you tell us about book two?

Speaker 3: 47:38

I am working on be surprised too. And you know, when you get to the end of, to surprised, you'll kind of know, um, that Kofi and ex con lives are going to be shaken up and they're going into new worlds. Um, where I think, I think the worlds they're going into are more sinister. The creatures are, uh, scarier and crueler and the stakes are just are higher. So it's just everything. You'd be surprised, but more intense.

Speaker 2: 48:07

He just gave me chills. It sounds incredible. Lastly, where can people find you?

Speaker 3: 48:14

So this depends, this depends on what, what version of me you would like to see if you would like to see, um, nice pictures and, uh, optimism and cheer. You can find me on Instagram at Ayana gray underscore, if you would like to see me mildly silly, you can find me on Twitter at Ayana gray. And if we'd like to see me be a complete fool, you can visit Tik TOK. Or I am sometimes they're usually making a complete fool of myself. Um, yeah,

Speaker 2: 48:48

I like that. We have options, which I Ana do. I want to see today. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me.

Speaker 3: 48:58

Thank you so much for having me. And I think I said it before we officially went on, but just it's really an honor. And it's amazing to, after being a listener for so long to dispatch to speak with you and it really kind of, this is one of those like wow. Dreams do come true moments. So thank you.

Speaker 2: 49:15

Oh, that makes me feel squishy inside. Thank you. You're welcome readers. Please check out beasts of prey. Um, that's so funny in my notes here, I wrote down beasts of gray. It is not this.

Speaker 3: 49:28

I get lots of variations of it and they are all funny to me. I got a rejection once that was like, thank you for beats of pray. And I was like, that sounds like a pretty good book, but alas,

Speaker 2: 49:40

Uh, check out beasts of prey. It is available. Now of course, we always encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer coming up next week. Now I will be talking to someone chain Ani this time. I'm fairly certain that it's gonna happen. Uh, we're gonna be talking about his new collection of fairy tale, inspired, short stories, beasts, and beauty. It is a beast themed month. If you're enjoying these conversations, I would love it. If you subscribed and please follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer, author and app happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.

Speaker 1: 50:41

[inaudible].