Dark Fairy Tales and Weaving in Subtext with Soman Chainani - Beasts and Beauty: Dangerous Tales

Marissa chats with Soman Chainani about his new story collection - BEASTS AND BEAUTY: DANGEROUS TALES - as well as the incredible feeling of gratitude one feels when they know they are following their true calling in life; weaving layers and subtext into your short stories, and how those nuances will be interpreted differently by readers depending on their age, experience, and imagination; taking a deeper look at the questions inherent in fairy tales in order to reinterpret their themes, morals, and the idea of happily ever after; the question to ask yourself after cutting something from your work, once you've had a chance to let it settle - "Do I miss it?"; what to do when your story falls into that gray area between middle grade and young adult (hint: you may not have to do anything); plus a behind-the-scenes look at working with an illustrator.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 0:11

Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books to enjoy and to help authors spend more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. One thing making me happy this week is that last weekend, my husband and I celebrated our 10 year wedding anniversary, which is like the fastest decade in history. I can't believe it's been that long. Um, but it's been great and still like super in love, gross, gross, blah, blah, blah. Um, and we celebrated by going to see the new James Bond movie in theaters. I haven't been to a movie since the pandemic hit and I really, really miss going to movie theaters. Plus I just love James Bond. It's easily one of my favorite movie franchises. So I enjoyed the heck out of our date night. Uh, I know the movie is almost three hours long. I thought it was worth every minute. So if you're also a spine net like me, definitely go check it out. And of course I am so happy to be talking to today's guest, a graduate of Harvard university and Columbia university's MFA film program. He started his career as a screenwriter and director. Now he's the author of the New York times bestselling series, the school for good and evil, his newest book, peace and beauty dangerous tails came out this past September. Please. Welcome summon Shane Ani.

Speaker 3: 1:46

Hello. Thank you so much for having me

Speaker 2: 1:49

So much for coming. I'm so excited that we could do this

Speaker 3: 1:53

Me too. And we have to talk about that James Bond movie. Cause um, I went inside and it was the first time where I got lost. Like I had trouble understanding it and I thought, am I getting old? Like have I lost my ability to comprehend story for?

Speaker 2: 2:11

I felt like I was able to follow the plot, but there were some details that I was like, okay, but why are the people working in the water? Like what are they doing? It was just like,

Speaker 3: 2:22

Like, I was just like, there were so many times where I was like, what is going on? Like I think maybe because it's been awhile since I've seen a James Bond movie, I was, I used to watch them more. I don't know, like every couple of years you would see one and now with the pandemic and everything, like, it's almost like I forgot how complicated they are.

Speaker 2: 2:41

Yeah, no. And I feel like the Daniel Craig ones in particular, like there's been some, some plots that have been ongoing over those sets, whatever casino Royale. Yeah. And so I could definitely use a refresher. I could, I could do a James Bond binge for sure. That's a great idea. Actually. Now I want to do

Speaker 3: 3:03

A hundred percent. Yeah, totally. Oh yeah. Yeah. But, um, no, thanks so much for having me. This is a, this is a real treat.

Speaker 2: 3:10

I am delighted. So the first thing I like to ask all of our guests on this show is I want to hear your author origin story. What are the twists and turns of your life that brought you here?

Speaker 3: 3:26

I think for me, I never thought I would be a writer. I didn't think that was something that you could actually set out to do. You know, and I also was a little bit afraid of being a writer because in a lot of ways I thought it would be a lonely profession that there was something, uh, sort of too unpredictable about it to almost narcissistic it. It just didn't seem like a realistic thing. I knew that writers existed. I obviously idolized many of them. Um, and I was a voracious reader, but being a writer never occurred to me. You know, um, I growing up had two kind of tandem ambitions. One was to work. My dad was a real estate agent. Um, and I thought, you know, I'll just work in the family business. And that was sort of a recurring theme in my head. Like, I'll be the good son who works for the family. And at the same time, I also was passionate about film. And I think I wanted to direct, there was something about sort of being in control of your own world and bringing your imagination to light. That seemed like a respectable profession and something that had like a, a full career path. So I think, you know, those two things existed in my head. Um, but writing is what I was best at. Like, you know, I'd been told over and over that I was that writing was just a talent that I had. Um, you know, but I always saw that in service to whatever career I would ended up choosing not necessarily a career unto itself. Um, and then, uh, I went to college, uh, at Harvard majored in English. Um, you know, because I thought, oh, you're going to ultimately work your dad, um, might as well enjoy reading books in college while you're at it. Um, came out of school, was like, oh, I'll go to business school. So I better get some, you know, real world experience, um, became a, uh, pharmaceutical consultant at 21. And that began. Yeah, well, cause I mean, it was just part of this thing of being a business guy, you know, and that's what began the string of me getting fired from every job that was not related to writing like any job I took, I got fired. It was just because I was always in the corner working on something. I always wanted to make something so that impulse to write, I was always working on something, you know, just, I was telling myself it was for fun. I never thought it would get published or anything, but I was never doing the work I was supposed to be doing. And, um, after getting fired for the empty time, that's when I went to film school and thought, okay, let me at least pursue the other ambition I always had. And that's kind of what started me on the path, you know, because once I went to film school, I got involved in film, you know, started writing, screenplays, started getting paid for my work for the first time. Um, and then it was a very short hop to school for good nivo, which was originally conceived as a screenplay. And it just became too big to do as a screenplay. So I thought, well, might as well put it down in some forms, why don't we try the novel? And, and that's kind of what, how the whole thing sort of happened.

Speaker 2: 6:45

Oh, interesting. And now school for good and evil is being made by Netflix. It's a beautiful full circle.

Speaker 3: 6:52

Yeah. It's um, sort of a wild, crazy experience in a lot of ways. I mean, I think it just was destiny, you know, it was, uh, it was what was meant to be and, and a calling in so many ways, you know? So, uh, I think, I, I think I was like, I'm really curious about your journey also. Like we, I feel like everyone else, everyone has their specific way of getting to be a writer, but what was yours?

Speaker 2: 7:20

Um, yeah, I pretty much knew that I wanted to be a writer since I was really little. Um, but like a lot of people, it didn't seem like it was a viable career option. Like I had this dream of writing books and seeing my name on, you know, this, my bookshelves and all of this, but then once you start hearing about it and oh, so few writers get past the querying stage. And even if you do so few get published and even if you do so if you make a living at it and you just, these stories start to build up. And that, that brings in a lot of doubt. Um, so I kind of was always working toward being a writer, but also had like my plan B, maybe I'll be an editor. Maybe I'll be an agent or a publicist, um, and, and went to school for that. But yeah, it was, was working toward writing a novel pretty much since I was like 16.

Speaker 3: 8:14

That is incredible. I, you know, that's how I said, like the calling comes in different ways. Some of us run towards it, some of it's run away from it, but it, it finds you somehow.

Speaker 2: 8:26

That is so true. And that's the way I've loved asking that question because it really does shine a light on how everybody's story is different. Like there might be some similarities. Um, obviously we all love storytelling in one format or another, like we all have that inside of us, but the way we get there, the way we get to, you know, having our name on a book cover, it's different for everybody

Speaker 3: 8:52

A hundred percent. And I think once you actually do align with what you're meant to do, there's really this kind of deep gratitude for it, you know, that you actually found your path and what you are always meant to be, you know,

Speaker 2: 9:09

Absolutely. I've never heard anyone really say that. I don't think on this podcast, but I feel super strongly that I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be and doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And I know that that is not the case for a lot of people. I feel really grateful to feel so secure in like, this is it for me, this is my dream and my career and my path.

Speaker 3: 9:33

And I think it's, you know, as the world changes and so many things go on writing can adjust to it. You know what I mean? It's such a, it's such an interesting profession in that art can transmute, like, versus I don't know a lot of my friends who have, you know, more traditional jobs, they can grow out of it or the job can become obsolete because of technology or they see it as a stepping stone to something else. You know, there's this kind of playability that riving has where writing can, can really become anything. I mean, it's, it's different though, if you write for like us where we write for Y a, I mean, I think there comes a time where all of us have to be like, okay, do we want to write for this audience forever? You know, what does, what does running it locally in the future? All those, all that sort of stuff. But, um, I love how sort of open writing is and all the things it can be and can become

Speaker 2: 10:27

How many writers do you know? I mean, yes, there are the writers who were like, you know, I'm going to write murder mysteries and they just have a career full of murder mysteries, and that's what they're passionate about. And that is it for them. And that's great, but I know so many writers too, who write way, and then they expand into adult fiction and then they come out with a middle grade and now they're working on screenplays or picture books. Like it can go in so many different directions, but at the heart, you're still telling stories and creating characters and, you know, taking people on adventures and making people feel stuff like there's a lot of room for creativity and expansion within this field.

Speaker 3: 11:07

And I think also, you know, there are the challenges too, in the sense of, you know, kids are moving on and young audiences are moving on to more visual mediums increasingly. And so we have to fight for their attention. Um, and so it isn't, we are not to him, the, the rosy days of 2005 and 2006, you know, where everything was, was much easier, you know, um, we have to really, really fight for every reader. And I, I welcome that challenge, you know, um, but it definitely, definitely makes things harder these days.

Speaker 2: 11:47

Um, so that kind of segues nicely into, um, going into, I want to of course, talk about your new book, uh, beast in beauty. Um, well, let's start, start with, could you tell listeners about bee syndrome?

Speaker 3: 12:03

Yeah. Peace and beauty is sort of a, really a labor of love that I never thought necessarily would be published because, you know, I had written the school for good Naval series for 10 years and I finished it. Um, last March, I think it was March 11th is when I had the final kind of press proof, uh, that I brought to the Harper office. And I remember that day being like to my editor, like, you know, every, every Corona was starting to be a shadow over everything. And you got the feeling like something terrible was happening and the offices were kind of empty and something was going on. And I'm like, like, what do I do? She's like, you need to bring that into the office. We need it. And I was like, I know. So I came in and brought it, you know, we went over the final things. The office was pretty much empty and everyone was acting very strange. It was just like everyone was sort of in their weird like fog. Um, and then the next day I got on a plane to go to Florida, which I was always planned. And then 24 hours later, the city lockdown, you know, I was stuck in Florida. And so I was down with my family, um, for five months and I was going to take a long vacation, you know, I was going to go around the world. I was going to go on all these adventures. I was going to sort of start the next phase of my life with kind of a wandering period of, of looking for inspiration to some extent. Um, and obviously couldn't do that. And so it was like, you know, how are you going to keep yourself company during lockdown? And I had sworn I wasn't going to work on another book because I'd been doing that nonstop for 10 years. Um, and I don't know out of nowhere, I started finding myself thinking about fairytales. Cause obviously that's what you and I, right. But like I started thinking about, well, if you're, if you're not going to have any contact with humans, if you're going to be trapped here, why not give yourself an impossible challenge? Why not rewrite the grim stories and not don't retell them or revise them for, you know, modern audiences. Don't do sort of the traditional retellings, literally go back as if you were rewriting the originals, you know? Um, and it just felt like such a bold kind of ridiculous challenge and not something that I would necessarily publish. It was just almost like a, a game with myself. Um, and I, I did red riding hood first and, uh, just found it a real freeing experience because I just didn't have to worry about censoring. I didn't have to worry about, you know, like making something palatable for younger audiences. I just sort of like unleashed and wrote something that I thought was quite adult. Um, and did that for each story. And then little by little started to come to terms with the fact of, oh, I was actually writing a book and something that I would want the world to see, ultimately.

Speaker 2: 14:52

So did you, at what point did you pitch it to your editor or your publishing team and what did they say?

Speaker 3: 15:00

Well, what happened was I had a, um, a book under contract with them that was supposed to be like a storybook, like a school for renewables storybook. It was going to be characters from the school for going to evil, retelling, popular tales, you know? Um, so it's sort of a companion book w the contract was quite small and it wasn't meant to be this sort of like, you know, big thing. And I started working on that and sort of abandoned it because I just, I had, I was done with school for Guinea bull, um, at that point. And so, uh, then I was like, well, I'm running a storybook. It's just different. And so, um, you know, I was sort of updating my editor on it. And finally I sent the first six stories to was like, whoa, like this is different, you know, but my editor is, she's amazing. She's been at Harper for 40 something years, you know, she edited Marie Sendak's, he's just sort of a legend there. And I think what she and I both share in common is we're both bit a bit of troublemaker. We'd like, we'd like pushing the envelope, you know? Um, and she was like, don't worry. I was like, can we even publish this? She's like, don't worry about age group. Don't worry about who this is for. Just keep going.

Speaker 2: 16:19

How, what a wonderful thing for an editor.

Speaker 3: 16:24

No worries about who's for anything like that. There was no, no pressure on that, you know, at the, at the beginning. And then once I finished all 12 is where, um, you know, we sort of came back in and we, I, it was funny because it was the only book that I've written with her, where I was like, um, I don't want an edit that is too, normally she doesn't touch the work. She just asks a million questions. That's how she edits, like, like literally 700, 800 questions, um, as, as she goes along and then I'll go in and actually do all the work. Like, it's just, she's not an intervention. I said, editor, uh, she's, she'll never touch the actual manuscript unless obviously to cut stuff and, um, proposed cuts and, and, you know, the occasional tweak and things like, things like that. But most of our, most of our editing is, is so kind of like philosophical and, and detailed, and it's sort of like questioning. And, um, I told her, I said, I don't want to question this one too much. I want it to have this kind of like, improvisitory rough quality of being told her on the campfire, which he instantly understood. And so then it really became about her emotions, reading it, you know, and, and so much about, okay, did she feel something, you know, or, or what was her like if she was hearing this around a fire, what would she feel? It was that kind of, and I was using our kind of as a test reader, um, and that's sort of what became, you know, the thing. And then towards the end, we were like, okay, I think this is for, we, we knew it was not going to be WIA. We knew it would be middle grade. Um, and then it was just figuring out as an eight and up, which seemed aggressive. So we went forward 10 and up, but we never really, we didn't edit for content because I was like, I wanted it to feel like the grim stories where it just pushed them a little so dangerous. So we use dangerous tails as the subtitle is kind of the warning don't come running to me because I told you in the subtitle do, I mean,

Speaker 2: 18:33

It is, it's a very gritty collection. Um, but I even feel like, you know, uh, the school for good and evil, it's gritty. Like, as I was reading it, I was constantly like, is it middle grade? I could totally be Yia. And I feel like you walk that line really well.

Speaker 3: 18:49

I think it's that I don't believe in the line. I feel like, I think, I think my issue is that weeding rewards, your whatever you're capable of. It's not like I'm watching TV, right? Like if you show squid game to a kid, it's going to scar them. I think I'm having this argument with my nephew because he's 13 and sneaking sneaking squid game. And I'm, I'm like, he's like, you're the cool uncle I'm allowed to do whatever I want that I'm like, I'm like that because unfortunately that stuff enters your consciousness in a, in to visceral away. And it just has to be policed. Unfortunately, books, I don't think should be policed because squid game on the page would hit very differently because anything that was too much, the imagination doesn't have the vocabulary for. So you gloss over it. You know what I mean? And so I think the cool thing about writing school for navel, or be some videos, there's lots of layers to it. You know, there's stuff for the older reader stuff for the younger readers and the younger readers never get the stuff they're not supposed to get because it's just not it's. So subtextual, it's aversive, it's, you know, in the new endo and things like that, and they're not going to get it. They

Speaker 2: 20:06

Just know that's an excellent point,

Speaker 3: 20:10

You know? So I, I, and the cool thing is, you know, my editor and I that's, 95% of our arguments is over, you know, where the line is and what content is. And what's cool is she's not alarmist. So I'm laughing because we've had legendary fights over the years over things. But when and 50% of the time, she's right, a 50% of the time I'll, you know, all sort of make my case enough that she'll, she'll finally let you know, let it go. Um, but in the end, whoever wins is always right, like, I think, which is a really cool feeling to have, which is like, you know, if she really thinks I'm wrong and something is over the edge, um, she'll push or, but something like in this collection, blue beard is super dark and edgy. And then the next story is Cinderella and Cinderella starts literally the first paragraph as this sort of Spanish sex farce, romp about a girl named Magdalena who sells melons at a melon stand. And the moment a prince gets a look at Magdalene on her melons, he's in LA. And she's just like, you, weren't going to spoil your entire beautiful collection, this nonsense. And I was like, this to me is the story. And she was just like, I'm going to die. And I was like, just sit on it. And you all see, you know, eventually she, um, she was like, no, no, no, I see what you're doing. And it's totally fine. You know? And ultimately it was just such a, such a key sort of moment of relief that we needed. But then there were other things there were other times, um, I think in Peter pan, for instance, I had a miscarriage, um, towards the end of the story. And, um, that I thought was super important. And she just was like, it takes the air out of the story is it goes, you've gone too dark and you can't recover yourself. And that's where you have to almost trust because when you're working on something for a long period of time, it becomes, I don't know, you just get used to it in a way, but to her reading it for the first time, she's like, I couldn't come back from it, you know? Um, and I thought I was okay. I trust that, you know?

Speaker 2: 22:26

Yeah. And so then now having gone back and change that, how do you feel about where the story ended up that,

Speaker 3: 22:35

You know what it's exactly right. Because what happens is, you know, I changed it. I, I created something a little different in that spot. And then there's so many times where I get to go away from the book, put it into copy editing, come back a month later and read it. And as long as I don't miss it, if I miss it, then I, you know, I will always go back and argue for what I had originally, but I didn't, I felt like I was like, oh yes, this is the right choice because you're still in it. You don't lose hope completely, you know?

Speaker 2: 23:08

Yeah, no, I, I mean, I loved so many stories in this collection, um, but I am going to make an argument that the Peter pan story needs to be expanded into a novel. You've got nothing else going on. I love,

Speaker 3: 23:25

I mean, I think Peter pan is just a story that's right. For revision in so many different ways. And I just thought it would be so cool to have this kind of sewing love story. And, you know, um, and it's funny, I just, I'm staring, uh, on my desk right now. Some I was talking to do, you know, Jack Sipe says, yes. So Jack Sipes, his niece is friends with, um, someone that I've worked with. And so she introduced me to him and I just had my first zoom ever with him last week. Yeah. So Jack Sipes is one of the most famous fairytale scholars in the world.

Speaker 2: 24:00

My college reading was Jackson,

Speaker 3: 24:02

A hundred percent definitely on the call with him being like, this is surreal for me. He's like, oh, and I read your book. Can I have all these thoughts and dah, dah, dah. And I'm just like, this is ridiculous because when I was 18, I was like, in a library of hunting for your books, it was just very like, very surreal. He's like emailing me being like, I have some recommendations for it. And I'm like, why is Jack Sipes writing me? Like I just said, you know, it's like having like Beyonce, like the academic round of Beyonce just drop into your inbox. Um, but he was like, you know, you're Peter pan and you need to look at the graphic novels by Regis lo Zell, who is this, um, French artists. Um, and they were written, I don't know when they were written, but there were six volumes and they're quite adult. And they're really sort of like in the vein of what you like to do, which is to cause trouble, you know, so you just pick them up and they just arrived and, and they look pretty awesome. They're bound in a single, um, sort of like giant graphic novels. So, um, I'm excited to, to keep, like, I just feel like I'll always, I'm working on a book now, um, that I just put into copy editing today, in fact that, uh, thanks. It was just like, it's such a surreal, it was one of these books that like, I never thought, well, I can't really talk about it yet, but I, I never thought would be finished, you know? Um, and there's, there's some Neverland stuff in there too. I just feel like I always go back to Neverland because there's so much opportunity to interpret it in your own way.

Speaker 2: 25:31

Yeah, no, absolutely. It is one of those stories. I kind of put it along the same lines as Alice in Wonderland. Like there's just so much fodder there for people to take it and run with it and give their own voice and spin to it.

Speaker 3: 25:45

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think even now someone, like, I think feels a little more a Morphis almost like it's almost difficult to, to put kind of, um, uh, how would I explain it? I feel like there's so much about language and linguistic play Alice in Wonderland that it's almost difficult to get into and kind of, we structure from a story point of view, you know, because it's hard to find the, the narrative through live in that When you feel a little, like you feel anytime I took so many readers over the years have been like, why can't you do wonder, why can't you wonder? I'm like, I just struggle with Wonderland. Like I just don't know where to where to anchor, but Neverland, I think just feels like a book with a lot of holes. And I feel like that's where you can, you can really go and put your

Speaker 2: 26:43

Spin on it. Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense. I know when I was first starting on heartless, it was like one of the biggest challenges was finding or trying to strike this balance between, you know, I wanted the nonsense. I wanted the silliness, the whimsy that you get from Wonderland, but also like I need plot structure and like trying to incorporate both and make it work was something that I spent just like, so hours agonizing over

Speaker 3: 27:14

Yeah. A hundred percent, a hundred percent. Um, and so, but I think these stories will be with us forever. So, you know, we'll keep reinterpreting them as long as we know, you know?

Speaker 2: 27:25

Definitely. So that brings me to another question. Cause when you look at the table of contents for this book, um, for the most part, we're looking at kind of like, what I think of is like a list of fairytales, you know, your Cinderella, your beauty and the beast. Um, and Peter pan seemed like kind of like the odd story out to me. Um, and other people can interpret it differently, but that just made me wonder, like, how did you go about deciding what stories are you going to tell and include in this collection?

Speaker 3: 28:01

I mean, I think for, um, me, it was each story kind of was in dialogue with each other. You know what I mean? Like I think each story was a response to the one from before. So I didn't really choose them. I felt like I wrote them exactly in order. Like every time I finished a story, the next one would sort of pop up into my head,

Speaker 2: 28:25

Just staying. Cause I was also wondering like, how did you decide what order to put them in, but you pretty much want them this way.

Speaker 3: 28:31

A hundred percent wrote them that way. And if you look at them, there's some Easter eggs, uh, as to each story kind of gives you a hint of what's coming in the next. So that like, it almost, it was almost like I knew what was going to like, it was very weird. It was very kind of like instinctive and um, like primal, you know what I mean? Like I didn't even know what I was doing. I just knew that like there little twists, like at the end of sleeping beauty, you have, um, this red haired child protected by these two, you know, fathers in a tower and then Rapunzel is next and the witches is sort of over sheltered, um, child grownup with red hair. If you sort of look at it closely, you realize that the Rapunzel, which is the child from,

Speaker 2: 29:23

Oh, my mind is blown. I want to go back and read them all now.

Speaker 3: 29:27

Yeah. There's little, little, little, uh, hints through each one.

Speaker 2: 29:32

That is so cool. I there's, you know, in addition to evidently these Easter eggs that I did not pick up on and need to go and find, um, there are definitely some recurring themes that kind of come up again and again, um, probably the most obvious I think being right there in the title beasts and beauty, what makes a person be Slee? What makes a person beautiful? Um, there's a lot of talk of love and characters searching for love. Having love kind of kept from them and the trauma that comes from that. Um, but for me, the theme that came up over and over that kind of encapsulated the story is what you do with the idea of happily ever after, um, which is of course a mainstay of fairytales. You can't think of fairytales without thinking about the idea of happily ever after. And in this collection, you turn it on its head again and again and again, where did that come from? Was that something that like started out as an idea you wanted to play with or did it kind of just come about naturally as you were writing?

Speaker 3: 30:52

I think it was natural. You know what I mean? Like fairytales to me, each one had to be its own thing, you know, but they come so deeply from the heart that they're going to access your personal philosophy. So I think if I look at everything, I write about all the sort of benefit stations and facets and incarnations of love. Um, and that is always what I'm going to be writing about. You know, there's an, I can't help that. Uh, but I did for this one with each story, really try to clear the slate and think kind of more deeply about what the original story was about, you know, and what it was meant to teach. And so it really was about trying to find those different strands of love. Like even in something like Rumpelstiltskin, um, where I'm taking the point of view of the devil, you know, um, and I'm writing from a very sort of dark kind of nihilistic place. Like the question that each story poses a question, which is, is there love when you're facing someone who thinks your soul is so corrupted that you belong to the devil? You know what I mean? Like w what if the devil marks you, how do you find love that? You know, so every story was about a question, you know, and, and trying to understand that, you know, like Wendy thinking that she loved Peter only to consistently be faced with the fact that Peter is like an, you know, so yeah, it's just it's so he, you know, it's that it's asking questions about, you know,

Speaker 2: 32:30

No, I thought it was all really powerful. Um,'cause you do? And of course, myself having written lots of fairytales, the vast majority of which end with true love, happily ever after finding your prince, you know, um, and it was so refreshing to see, you know, a lot of the story's ending, but I don't not to spoil anything. I don't know that any of them end with finding a prince and riding off into the sunset, but we have friendship. We have, you know, family found family. Um, self-love kind of this idea of, I can be, I can create my own happy ending and all of it just came together to really question what the things are that we're getting out of these old stories and make you think a lot harder about what is the message. And is it the right message?

Speaker 3: 33:28

I think the important thing is that from a very sort of deep perspective, the understanding that fairytales pop up, no matter what, in every single culture, these are stories that are intrinsic to our DNA. Like if you go into a jungle in the Amazon and wait long enough, they're going to tell you a snow white or Cinderella story. It's just, it's just, it's just who we are. You know? And so the, the question we have to ask is like, what do they mean to us now? You know? And so like something like snow white, the original snow white was about very simple. I mean, the theme, it could not be clear. It's just about the fact that an older woman cannot surrender her beauty to the youth. Like she cannot let go of it, you know? Um, and as a result, she, you know, ultimately terrorizes a girl and she denies the truth, you know, and, and denying the truth has sort of deadly consequences in fairytales in general. So to me, I thought, well, what does that look like now? And I thought, well, we do that all the time in culture. We denied the truth of beauty because we privileged sort of like, you know, white beauty and sort of brainwash, uh, kids growing up that there's a certain standard of beauty that looks a certain way. And, um, you know, if you had someone who looked different, if you had the only black girl in the entire kingdom of people who look different than her and a mirror is telling her, she's the most beautiful in the land, no, one's going to believe it. Not her, not the queen, not the people, no one. So, you know, I felt like that's the story that, that we would see today. So it became more about like looking at these sort of stories from the 1600, 1718 hundreds and thinking, well, what would that be like today in our village, if we were, if we were a little, if our society was made up of little villages in the forest, you know?

Speaker 2: 35:24

Yeah. Did you have the 12 stories in the collection? Did you have one that either you enjoyed writing the most or that you felt, uh, maybe particularly, uh, I don't know, passionate about or one that you connected with more strongly than the others?

Speaker 3: 35:43

Uh, it's a good question. I think Cinderella had the most fun with Laughing the whole time. I mean, it was original drop was so long, and that was what editor was like, oh my God. Like, she's like, it just, like, it's just nonstop. Hi-jinks for like 10,000 words, she's like, it needs to be half the, like, and I'm like, no, she's like, it's too much of a good thing. You cannot have So much drama. Um, but, uh, blue beer probably was the one that went the deepest. I thought, you know, it's just so intense that story. And I think it was the one where, um, when I was finished, I was like waiting for my editor to be like, we are not publishing this because it's so kind of adult. Um, and she, that was the one where she was like, I don't have any notes and I don't think we should touch it. And I was like, okay, she's like, just leave it.

Speaker 2: 36:40

It

Speaker 3: 36:41

Was this kind of feeling that we both had of like, it's super like on the edge. And because of that, you don't want to mess with it because if you mess with it, you might end up doing something destructive to it, you know? Um, and so I think if we just left it, I'm trying to get those, anything. We was was one of the few things in my life that we just didn't edit there. Might've been like two lines that she asked about, you know? Um,

Speaker 2: 37:14

That is so interesting. I thought that was such a powerful story. And kind of going back to what you were saying before, how, you know, kids, depending on where they are, age maturity, what they've been exposed to, they kind of can self-censor. And when I was reading the Bluebeard story, I had this feeling like, I think this is a very different story for me than it would be for say a 12 or 13 year old. I just think that people are going to read into things so differently. And it's fascinating the way that it's the same words on the page, but there's so much subtext and so many layers,

Speaker 3: 37:55

A hundred percent. And it's funny because I think that's the best story in the collection. And so I was anticipating in reviews and are being like that, to that become the single on the album, like the one that everyone, and it is instead, the strangest thing has happened, which is that. And I guess it's a compliment. And I think also now that I look at it, it should be, should have been expected. No one agrees, like it is just one big, like statistical flat line of everybody having a different favorite. You know what I mean? Like

Speaker 2: 38:30

Have a great story collection.

Speaker 3: 38:32

No, yeah. I think it's also comes down if you do your job right. With fairytales, that should happen because everybody has a different fairytale. That's our favorite because their trauma and their experiences in life resonate to a different story. You know what I mean? Like, to me, like if you asked me the story least likely to be anybody's favorite in this collection, because I think it's quite, it's, it's more of a, um, let me think w w how I would put it, it's more of a Lark story, I think is responsible. And yet this week I literally have had five or six people. I'd be like, oh, Rapunzel, faraway, sorry, in the question. And I'm like, but that's like the side of the single being that like, it just, but there's something in that particular story that affected them, you know? Um, because it does speak to a certain kind of love and a certain kind of experience. Then my mother, like Jack and the Beanstalk is so much about the, the, the need for kids to kill their parents metaphorically in order to be free. And so Jack literally, contorts his mother into like this figurative giant that he has to slay in order to be free of her. And so it's funny, there's been some reviews of what clearly, clearly parents, mothers being like this story is so mean to mothers.

Speaker 2: 39:49

Um, well, fairytales in general, not great to mothers.

Speaker 3: 39:53

Yeah. And my mom's like, oh, Jack in the beat soccer as far away, my favorite I'm like, how is he, how is that possible? It's so like aggressively against parents, but, um, you know, she found something in it that really spoke to her. So I think to me, it really is about what is your experience? What is your, um, you know, what is it that, that activates you? You know, it's funny. Like I also think, I mean, look, the world has changed in so many ways. There were some early reviews that came through that had all these trigger warnings. And it was like cannibalism cannibalism who eats people in my books. And then I realized they were trigger warning, Hansel and Gretel. And I thought, is that what we're doing now? Are they, oh, is that cannibalism Wolf? But I don't know that it's just eating. If it's just the law of nature, I guess they are boys. And it depends how you read it. But they were like, no, because they were like, hands on vitamin. I thought, you know, we can't do that. We can't, we cannot be putting cannibalism trigger warnings on hand because this is, this is life. This is the story, you know, it's that sort of, um, that's what I'm trying to, to kind of go straight at is this, this, this fear of the story, you know, the fear of this kind of the primal part of ourselves, you know?

Speaker 2: 41:25

Yeah. Well, and the fairy tales themselves, they are dark and they have dark themes and trauma and murder, and which is eating children, you know, it's, you didn't invent that.

Speaker 3: 41:41

And we make a mistake. The reason this collection exists is because we've made a mistake, sanitizing the stories by shielding the kids from real stories. You, you essentially rendered them incapable of understanding how deep the world's evils run. And so there becomes this perpetual shock that evil exists in this perpetual outrage and offense to the fact that evil is not only out there, but wins. And instead, if you just lived with the cognizance that, that good Nevar and balance and one wins, sometimes one wins. The other life is a little less kind of traumatic. I think.

Speaker 2: 42:24

So we are going to move on to our happy writer bonus round. But before that, I have to make one more comment about this book for people who have not seen it in person yet it is a beautiful, beautiful book. Um, and I just want to give kudos to your entire publishing team because when I received my copy and opened it up, it feels like this, the illustrations, the topography, the little details on the title page, all of it, it feels like it's paying homage to the classic collections fairytales. And I loved it. And it's the prettiest book I've added to my collection and a long time.

Speaker 3: 43:10

Oh yeah. But I think, you know, we were very lucky to find Julia IRD hell. Um, and you know, it's so funny. I just have instincts with artists in a sense of when I start working with them, I know whether I need to be really interventionist and like sort of controlling and what I want. And there's other times it's over my body and sort of brain are like, don't give any, like, don't give guidance, like leave it. And with Juliette was like very early on, I think with my editor and I, we just sort of almost instinctively were like, we're just not going to tell her anything. We're just gonna, we're just gonna give her stuff and see what she brings back. And, you know, she, with the cover, she was like, is there anything you guys want? We were like, we want a Wolf and that's all we want. That's all we know we want. So she sent us eight sketches and we both knew number six. Was it? And number six, these were sketches. And number six is almost 98%. Exactly what the cover is now. And we're like that one. And then she's like, okay, I'm going to do the final. We're like, no, we just want it like that. She's like, we're not publishing that. That's a hard, that's why I sketch where like, we're like, we know, so don't touch it. So anyway, there was a lot of negotiation, a lot of negotiation over, over help, but that, that font and everything that's, that was in her sketch.

Speaker 2: 44:34

That is so great. I mean,

Speaker 3: 44:36

Yeah, we didn't really, so there was a lot of like, you know, I think the original, there was a lot of discussion over the eye because in her sketch, the eye is blank. It's a white eye. Um, and so she was like, well, that was the sketch. Now there needs to be a final item. We're like, no, but can you imagine having sending in your rough draft and someone being like, this is what we're publishing. And you're like, I, you know, if I was her, I would have come over and set both our houses on fire. Um, but, uh, ultimately, you know, we, we all just sort of worked together and got it to a place where it's just absolutely spectacular, but the same went for all her other art. She, we just left her, we just, Julia is just a genius. So we just, we were like, do your thing. And then we'd come in at the end. And we'd say, you know, there were a couple of times where things needed to be tweaked and, you know, just details in the story needed to be reflected. There was a lot of argument over whether the beast should wear pants in beauty and the beast. Cause she drew her without pants, uh, during the beast without pants. And I'm like, perfect. And everyone at the publisher is like, no, no, the beast needs pants. I'm like, why? Like that's, what's going to get us complaints. And they're like, What's really funny as Julia would send the next draft and he would not have pants again. And I'm like, she is doing exactly what I would do, which is not put pants on him because he doesn't need pants. And then finally the hammer came down. It was a, it was an argument. I was like, I want it to go to the mat for, but I was going to lose. They were very, very, they were, I think it was because they published Narnia and Mr. Thomas didn't have pants. And apparently he was a big scandal.

Speaker 2: 46:25

Interesting.

Speaker 3: 46:25

And I think it scarred for life because sometimes I use it, like it was a battle. I thought I was going to win. I'm like, why doesn't he pants? And um, I thought I was going to win, but I lost, you know what I lose sometimes I'm surprised. So maybe, you know, look, maybe they're right. Maybe they're right. Maybe we would have had pants on him and it would have been a problem. You know,

Speaker 2: 46:50

All the things

Speaker 3: 46:53

That in a, in a school for the Naval book where in the almost final draft, I had a very, very terrible villain kill a cat. And they were like, Nope, we are not allowed the cat to be killed.

Speaker 2: 47:06

I am an animal, dies in one of my books. I think this is the time this is, this is the one that's going to get all the backlash in HRS.

Speaker 3: 47:14

They were like, they're like, you can't that. So, um, the cat just had to disappear. The cat had to be the guy the cat had to suddenly vanish, you know, and everyone then obviously suspected what had happened to him, but I couldn't have the cat actually die, you know? Oh,

Speaker 2: 47:29

Interesting. If there are things you have to consider, I suppose. All right. You ready for the bonus? Round tea or coffee

Speaker 3: 47:44

T I don't drink Tappy. So it's always horrible tea,

Speaker 2: 47:48

Music or silence,

Speaker 3: 47:50

Silence for sure. And earplugs. So double silence

Speaker 2: 47:55

Writing in the morning or writing at night,

Speaker 3: 47:58

Um, morning by night. I just want to want to be done, but like when I'm on deadline, like I was the last week, um, then it really just it's all the time. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:08

Yeah. Grimm brothers or Hans Christian Anderson.

Speaker 3: 48:14

Oh, they're so different. I, as this Christian to understand, I think has more edge,

Speaker 2: 48:20

Good or evil

Speaker 3: 48:23

For sure. Oh my God. I mean, that's why I wrote the books. I slowly learned a hundred percent all the way.

Speaker 2: 48:29

What is your favorite writing snack?

Speaker 3: 48:33

Um, it depends on how I'm feeling, but blueberries usually

Speaker 2: 48:39

That's wholesome. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 48:41

I think cause if I, yeah, that's usually what I go to and there's, um, there's like Inca corn. I love that. Also.

Speaker 2: 48:47

I am not familiar.

Speaker 3: 48:49

I was like roasted salty corn. It's kind of,

Speaker 2: 48:53

Oh, it sounds delicious. What is the best writing advice you've ever received?

Speaker 3: 49:01

Hmm. It's interesting. I'm trying to think just that. It's going to, it's going to, it's going to write itself. You just have to show up. It's the showing up. That's the hard part

Speaker 2: 49:20

Showing up is really hard.

Speaker 3: 49:22

That's the hard part. Once you show up and you sit down, it ends up happening.

Speaker 2: 49:26

Yeah. Yeah. On sort of magic. What is your favorite thing to do that has nothing to do with reading or writing?

Speaker 3: 49:35

Play tennis a hundred percent. It's what I love.

Speaker 2: 49:39

What book makes you happy

Speaker 3: 49:42

On teammate by Patrick, Dennis?

Speaker 2: 49:45

Usually people have to really stew over that question. You had one.

Speaker 3: 49:48

Well, it's funny because everyone's like, oh, Harry Potter, must've been the inspiration for[inaudible] and you're going to be like, oh my God, basically school for evil.

Speaker 2: 49:59

Well, I have not read it. So now I know. So I know you mentioned you cannot tell us much about it, but can you give us any hints to what you're working on next?

Speaker 3: 50:15

No, I'm telling you, I'm trying to think of how to frame it. I can't. And we're going to announce it probably in a few couple months. Um,

Speaker 2: 50:24

It is a

Speaker 3: 50:26

It's novel. That's why I can say it's a novel. It is exactly, exactly. 66,000 words. Um, and I just saw the cover and the covers gorgeous

Speaker 2: 50:38

It's um, yeah, I'd be curious to see how the world takes it, but, uh, yeah, it's, it's another, another fairytale adventure. So, um, something to look forward to, lastly, where can people find you

Speaker 3: 50:54

Stillman see on Instagram is probably the best spot and then a ever, never.com is home of, um, kind of my online universe. Also my YouTube channel ever, never TV. And those are sort of the three best places.

Speaker 2: 51:08

Awesome. And before we close out this conversation, I do want to point out to people, um, who loved hearing us chat about fairytales and books and writing, uh, someone and I are going to be doing a virtual event coming up, um, also with Stephanie Garber author of care vol I know she has lots of fans on this podcast. Um, so that event is gonna be on Wednesday, November 17th at 2:30 PM Eastern time slash 7:30 PM UK time. Um, this event is being hosted by Waterstones bookstore in the United Kingdom. Uh, so you can check out their event website for more information and we hope to see you there. So with that, so thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 3: 52:01

Oh my pleasure. This was so much fun. I had such a good time. Thanks again,

Speaker 2: 52:05

Readers. Definitely check out BS and beauty. It is available. Now of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meyer. Next week, I will be talking with Rachel smile, artist writer, and creator of the sensational web comic. Laura Olympus. I hope you will join us. If you're enjoying this conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marissa Meyer author and happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.

Speaker 1: 52:55

[inaudible].