Using Classic Storytelling Elements in Your Memoir with Nancy Balbirer - Almost Romance

For our 100th episode(!), Marissa chats with Nancy Balbirer about her new memoir - ALMOST ROMANCE - as well as deciding what stories from your life might connect with readers on an emotional level, therefore making them good fodder for your own memoir; how to translate real-life into an actual book that includes all the necessary elements of a good story; the importance of establishing trust with your reader and why highlighting what you don't remember can be just as powerful as highlighting what you do; understanding the gray area between truth and memory and using primary sources (i.e., friends and emails) to help you nail the details; embracing a life-long love of vocabulary and the rhythm of words; and some thoughts on dealing with criticism, even if you happen to have really thin skin.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Mari Meyer. Thank you so much for joining you today. One thing making me happy this week. Can you believe it? This is our 100th episode. I know mind boggling. I seriously feel like I just started this yesterday. Like it was no more than a twinkle in my eye, and yet we are almost two years later and a hundred beautiful episodes. Uh, so to celebrate Joanne and I are cooking up some fun 100th episode giveaway things. We're not entirely sure what yet. Uh, but we will have it figured out by the time this is going live. So if you aren't already following us on Instagram, please do so it's at happy writer podcast, come join in the celebration and maybe even win something. Uh, and of course, this is a really great time for me just to pause and say huge. Thank you to Joanne levy, our social media extra, who has been with us since the beginning. And thanks to you. All of you, wonderful listeners, thank you for being a part of this. Thank you for subscribing and telling your friends and all the things your support is really hugely appreciated. And I have loved being on this journey with you. Uh, so here to another hundred episodes with that, I am so happy today to be talking to our 100th guest. She is an actress who has performed on both the stage and the screen, including a role on Seinfeld. How cool is that? She is also the author of a marriage and take your shirt off and cry. A memoir of near fame experiences. Her newest book, almost romance comes out tomorrow on February 1st, please. Welcome Nancy Bera. Hello? Hello, Nancy. I am so excited and honored to be the hundredth guest.<laugh> that? How sad? That's the coolest thing ever. I love it. I am very excited to, and yeah, I'm just like super thrilled to talk to you. I loved this book. Um, it's quite different. We tend to do a lot of, um, middle grade and young adult fiction. And so this is a little out of my normal wheelhouse and I loved every page of it. So I was just really, really excited to, to get it and to have it in my hands. And now I'm really looking forward to talking to you about it.

Speaker 2: 3:04

Yes. Oh my gosh. I love that. I love that. I'm a little out of your, out of your zone. Yeah. And

Speaker 1: 3:10

Perfect for the 100th episode. It's like, it's all just meant to be the universe speaking.<laugh> um, so to kick us off, uh, one question I start with all of our guests is what is your author origin story, whatever the twist in terms of your life that brought you to being a published author, how did we get here?

Speaker 2: 3:33

Well, I, um, I suppose that I did not come via the normal channels. Um, the origin story goes like this. I was an actress and I was going in for an audition, a project for a television. I think it was a movie of the week, which they used to have of, um, low those many years ago.<laugh> and, um, this was like the late nineties. Okay. And, um, I, it, it was a project called the untitled Luke Perry project. And I was stunned to see when I walked into the audition room, Luke Perry behind the table,<laugh> which, you know, I'm not sure why I was so stunned since it was called the UN the untitled Luke Perry project. But I was just a little surprised to see him there and it, it rattled me and I, I had, I was an, I had an off day. And, um, the result of that, that my then agent, um, said you, the feedback was that you board Luke Perry, um, you're too much of a loose cannon, so I can't work with you anymore. And she dumped me. And the only way at that time, this is pre like, you know, doing cute videos on Insta or TikTok or whatever, the only way to get another agent was to be in something. And so out of sheer abject desperation, um, I wrote myself a solo show called I slept with Jack Carac, which was about, um, a boyfriend I had who was a jazz musician and believed that he was the reincarnation of Jack Carac<laugh> um, I know, could I get any more cliche with the suit?<laugh>

Speaker 1: 5:35

I mean, who doesn't wonder once in a while, maybe I'm the reincarnation of Jack

Speaker 2: 5:40

Carac yeah. I mean, who doesn't. Right. So<laugh>, so anyway, I wrote this solo show and the purpose of this was to get another theatrical agent, but what happened along the way is that I fell in love with writing and the show was super successful, but super successful for me as a writer. I, I, you know, it just kind of put me on this path and suddenly I was being asked, Hey, do you wanna write something for this outlet or that outlet or whatever? And every single thing that came up was like, yes, yes, I wanna do this. I wanna do this. And then, um, not, I think within five years I had my first book deal. And that was for take your shirt off and cry. I mean, there were, you know, other things along the way that I was doing, but it, it was a, it was, I wanna say a straighter path. And like, not that it was easy, but somehow it was like, the universe opened up her benevolent arms to me as a writer in a way that I'd never quite had as an actor. And it just was like, you know, when you know, things are, are right. Um, it just kind of happened that way. And I went from one book to writing a bunch of other things. And then I wrote for, I wrote comedy for Paul Shafer for a while. He had a radio show and, you know, a bunch of things. And within that, I still acted on Asian, but I found myself. So in love with writing that I really didn't have the time anymore or the inclination to be perfectly honest. Um, by then I was a mother and, you know, performing on stage didn't appeal to me as a, as a mother, as a new mother, as an any mother<laugh>. Um, and, and just sort of the idea of like going back out and boring other former television, uh, stars of former television shows, didn't just didn't seem like the right kind of thing to take me away from writing, which I like to say, like the mistress became the wife, you know? Yeah,

Speaker 1: 7:57

No, I love that. I love hearing from writers who started somewhere else, you know, their career, their original career, their original plan wasn't writing, but somehow the stars aligned. They, they found their way, found their path. And once you are there, that feeling of rightness, cuz I, I am very familiar with that feeling of rightness. And to me it's always like, yes, you were meant to be here all along. It just took you a little while to find it.

Speaker 2: 8:26

Absolutely. And you know, just a along those lines, it's like, I, you know, when I was perfectly honest with myself, when the writing started taking off and just kind of happening for me, I had to admit that I, it just was a better fit for me that I was that, that the part of acting that I loved so much was storytelling mm-hmm<affirmative> mm-hmm<affirmative>. And when I became a professional, because I, I started as a kid acting as a kid and then I went to, to drama school for that. And you know, it, it was like all of the things that I loved about it were not the reality of the day to day of being a, a working or semi working actress. It was not that way at all. And the reality of writing was the reality of writing. I mean, I didn't have to wait for somebody to bestow it upon me. I could write and I could make my life happen, you know, and I could make the story happen. Whereas being it's funny, I was, um, I, I, I think I had like this period, I mean, I know I had this period where I was dating a lot of jazz musicians and at one point I was dating this, this piano player and his dad had been, um, a composer and he used to play this guy's, uh, uh, songs. And he did it in such a beautiful way. But when he, he would play his father's TA like back then cassette tapes of his dad playing his own stuff. He was like, pounding it out on the piano. He wasn't really much of a piano player, but he wrote this stuff. And I remember lying on this dude's bed and thinking to, do I wanna be the piano player or do I wanna be the composer mm-hmm<affirmative>. And I mean, and this was years before I became a writer and I, I, the thought just came to me like from, from deep within the composer, you know, mm-hmm<affirmative> so anyway. Yeah,

Speaker 1: 10:33

No, I love that because I do, I mean, I've spoken to, so, so many writers over the years and some like, like me, some of us as knew when we were a kid, like, I wanna be a writer, I wanna be a novelist or play writer. What have you? Um, but so many writers didn't know that and, you know, kind of came to it in a more roundabout way. But even those writers, once they're there, you can look back and see the signs, you know, you can see like, oh, that moment in fifth grade, when I wrote that story for that project and I loved it, or, you know, when I used to always tell stories and put on plays and puppet shows for my parents, or like, you can see that it was there, you know, you just maybe missed it a little bit.

Speaker 2: 11:20

That that was always me. That was always me. I mean, I remember in second grade having this, we were supposed to, you know, turn in a story and I turned in a story about my cat Zeki. And then the next week I wrote another story about Zeki and the teacher was you, you just wrote a story about, and I said, it's a continuing song.<laugh>

Speaker 1: 11:42

It's a series year. Exactly.

Speaker 2: 11:48

So,

Speaker 1: 11:48

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So now you have your third book coming out. Uh, would you tell listeners what is almost romance about

Speaker 2: 12:00

Almost romance is a memoir, um, of how the 32 year almost romance I shared with one of my oldest and dearest friends became a real one with the help of the Grayson Frankie writer's room and the DENIN of a fable, but cursed Manhattan apartment building.

Speaker 1: 12:30

And it is ROIC and good fun. I laughed so many times, especially the shopping jokes. I'm like, I'm gonna use that.<laugh> I don't wanna give it away. Cause I want people to go read the book of course, but I'm like I'm shopping. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:46

I mean, I mean, that guy was not to be no, there's a lot. It, it really is a comedy. Um, it is, it's a real life romantic comedy. Yeah. That's like sort of the best way to describe it, but I love that you love the shopping thing<laugh>

Speaker 1: 13:03

Yeah, no. So funny. And it is, I mean, it has a lot of the, the kind of the, the themes and the tropes that you would see in like a classic Rome com like it's very kind of when Harry met Sally kind of sex in the city totally. But it's real life, which, you know, adds a whole new layer of intrigue and interest to it. Absolutely. Um, so you are the first memoir author that we have had on this podcast. Um, and I've got so many questions about, uh, the, the format and how you approach it. But my first question that I'm dying to know is did Jenna ever take the painting out of the closet?<laugh>

Speaker 2: 13:47

She has not.

Speaker 1: 13:50

Jenna,

Speaker 2: 13:52

I know I want that painting. I wanna see

Speaker 1: 13:55

The painting,

Speaker 2: 13:57

You know, I'll try and get her to take a picture of it and text it to you because it's fabulous. It really is. And it's ginormous too.

Speaker 1: 14:07

Yeah. No text, text, Jenna, talk to Jenna, say the world needs the painting. Yes,

Speaker 2: 14:13

Absolutely. The it's so true. It is so beautiful. But look, you know, when, when someone, when a, um, healer or whatever, she was like a, a, um, she was like a SMU. It was like a smudge stick, the

Speaker 1: 14:32

Cleanse an apartment cleanse. Yes,

Speaker 2: 14:36

You. Yeah. Yeah. She was cleansing Jenna's apartment. And, um, she was like, oh no, oh no, you can't. This is, this is turning off men. This is, this is putting a big, no can do up on your energy, you know, by having this painting up. And so it was like, that had to go<laugh>.

Speaker 1: 15:01

Yeah. I mean, it's, I haven't even seen the painting and I feel like it's a shame. Like if you love the painting, you hang that painting.

Speaker 2: 15:11

Well, here's the thing, um, you know, in truth, I had another friend who, um, had one of these people come over to do to sort of Feng mm-hmm<affirmative>, you know, but figure out why love wasn't working out for her and this, uh, Feng schwa specialist, um, uh, deduced that it was that her love corner was in her laundry room and that, that she needed to like, do something to judge it. So that, that wasn't the case. So I know that if Jenna found another spot for this painting, but the problem is when you're in a one bedroom apartment, mm-hmm<affirmative>, even if it's a lovely, you know, one in a pre-war fabulous building, you know, there's only so many walls, you know, so I don't know, but I will ask her because you must see it.

Speaker 1: 16:11

Okay. I appreciate it. All right. Let's talk about, um, memoir writing. Cause I took a, a personal essay class in college. Um, so kinda like short form memoir and I absolutely hated it, um, in part, because I wanted to be writing fiction and like, nobody likes being told what to do, but also because I just, the whole time I was in this class, I was like, my life is just not that interesting. I just don't have anything to write about that, that I can think anybody's gonna care to read. So for you entering into the world of memoirs, like do face those doubts, do you have those moments when you're thinking, like, why should anybody care about me and my story? And if so, how do you get past those?

Speaker 2: 17:03

Well, you know, it's, it, it's funny. Uh, as I said, when I started writing, I had to take from my own life because I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I mean, I had no ever written anything before, so I just had to, I just was so, um, carried by the sheer, uh, by sheer need to get something else that I could only use stories from my own life, because I just figured that was the easiest thing to, to draw on. And, and, um, of course I fictionalized it because in the play, in the solo show, um, Jack Harrow, the real one actually shows up to, uh, help me, you know? And so I, I did fictionalize that, but it was the, the, the launchpad was my own life. And because I was so comfortable in, you know, just speaking in my own voice and I came from the world of, you know, acting and improv, I could figure it out. But from that point on when it became like a literary endeavor, um, if you will, uh, what I, what I understood is if something kind of was kept turning over in my head, a story from my life that I kept thinking about that I kept thinking would be entertaining to tell as a story mm-hmm<affirmative>. Um, I, I realized that there was something universal beyond what the, the story was on its, on its face value. Do you know like that thematically or unconsciously, there was something else about the story that raised it to a, a universal level. And, and I, because I was writing so much at that time, it just, I just, I wrote my way into the story, realizing what that thing was. So like in, for example, in, in almost romance it's like, uh, and also just sidebar, you know, somebody, and I don't remember who it was, somebody very smart said, you know, if, if there's a book that you wish you could read, but it doesn't exist. Right. I don't know who said it, but we could probably Google that. Um, when I was writing, when I wanted to write almost romance, uh, you know, I wanted to tell this story because I knew there were other women, people humans out there that below believed that love was a parade that had passed them by. And even if they felt okay with it as I did, I wasn't unhappy or miserable or bitter, I was quite happy in my life, but I had this belief that, you know, I'd been divorced. Uh, you know, I'd, I'd, I'd been through ill, as I say, you know, in, in, in terms of love. I just thought that that was sort of a past moment. Um, I wanted people to know that that, that there is no such thing there really isn't. And particularly for people who are approaching 50 years old, you know, that's like this big deal and, you know, suddenly you're gonna start getting magazines. You don't want from a, a R P<laugh>, you know, you know, if it isn't bad enough. Right. But I wanted people to know, you know, honestly, this is my favorite decade so far, and now I'm 56. So I've only got another four years in it, you know? So I don't know if that answered your question<laugh>

Speaker 1: 20:56

But no, it does. I mean, I, I think one of the most powerful things about memoir is how relatable so of these stories can be, um, and how they are in so often tapping into like these universal human emotions and things that so many people experience and go through. And it can be really nice to read someone else's account and feel like, okay, I'm not alone in

Speaker 2: 21:26

This. That's exactly what it is. And that is the, that's the whole trip of memoir writing. I mean, obviously just like in fiction, just like in plays, you know, we're not writing the part where, you know, we're just the mundane activities. It's a very specific, um, heightened moment in a person's life. Um, or that something over the span of a life as, as this book, uh, traverses 32 years, um, you know, it's, it's, it's putting that all together. And, and it's also super exciting because even though this is something that actually happened, this is all true. It it's like you still, as a writer have to find your way into the story, you know, and figure. So you're using a lot of the same, um, the same functions as fiction writers, you know, as novelists as, as, as television and, and film writers and screenwriters, uh, playwrights you're, you're using many of those same things, tools, what have you mm-hmm<affirmative>

Speaker 1: 22:36

So, so that's a, a great kind of segue into like, how we think about memoir in terms of story, because it still has to function as a complete story beginning, middle end, various plot points, et cetera. Yep. So at what point here with almost romance, at what point did you think like, oh, this would make a great book, and once you had that thought, what were some of the steps that you took, um, to start planning it out and deciding how am I going to write this story in a way that feels, uh, like a book, as opposed to just, you know, sitting down and rehashing the story with old friends or what have you.

Speaker 2: 23:21

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, you know, when, when Howie and I, that's my husband and he's the, the, the, my, my love interest, the male lead in the book, um, when Harry and I got married, um, the New York times did one of those vows columns, um, on us, which is like the thing they put in the Sunday paper, you know, where they sort of describe a person's wedding and how, how they got there. And, um, when that, when that was published, there was so we got so much, um, just response. I mean, people to us, the man who wrote the piece, I mean, it was just kind of, it was kind of surprising and epic. And what I realized from that was that it, it was a, he did a beautiful job with the story, but that it couldn't possibly contain the whole story. And I thought that the whole story, you know, was, was potentially a more, a more rich experience and could really speak to other people. And I was, um, just publishing my second book and I was sitting down to lunch with my editor and I said, she said, what do you wanna do next? And I said, well, it's funny that she, you ask. And then I just kind of pitched her very extemporaneously, uh, the, my idea for how I would do almost romance. And I hadn't even really thought about how I would do it, but it was so natural. Like I thought, okay, this is three parts. And it's, you know, it, it, it goes back and fourth between the 32 years, you know, that we knew each other and between New York and LA and, and all of the experiences, but it takes place now, you know, and the, now is 2015 when we finally, you know, had our first date. Um, and I, I just pitched it out to her and she was like, she said, well, how is it a book? You know, I saw, you know, the article was lovely, but how is it a book? Um, and not just an article, like you're saying, mm-hmm<affirmative>. And I, I pitched her, the whole thing. I see it like this. I see it like that. The first part would be, you know, take place at the Russian Sam bar. The second part would be London terrace and is when we get to Ashland. And, you know, I hadn't even thought about it. That's how natural it was.<laugh> now that having been said, and then I, you know, I wrote up the, a memo to her, and then it, it, it was almost like she'd commissioned it. So that was one of those lucky things. I love my editor, by the way. Um, I anyway, then, um, then I actually had to write it and, you know, it's like, even when things just feel so natural, you know, writing a book is, is an awfully difficult endeavor. Mm-hmm<affirmative>, I mean, it just is. And so there were many times that I just, uh, wasn't sure. I mean, sure. That was my initial thought. Like, it was three parts and blah, blah, blah. But I had to ask myself, you know, along the way, are you just married to this idea because it was the first one you had, or is this really serving the story? It turned out that it was serving the story, but I still had to take it all apart, you know, because there's a lot of interweaving of time and, and, and voices, you know, I've got the narrator of who I was in 2015, but also the narrator of who I was when I was 17. And I met him, you know, mm-hmm<affirmative>. And so it, you know, it's, it's a lot, but, um, but I, I, I did finally figure it out.

Speaker 1: 27:11

Yeah, no, it's, it does feel like a book that almost has like a jigsaw element to it. Like, there's, there's a lot of pieces and I can, I mean, I can imagine for you kind of digging back through time and deciding, okay, what moments are important to show? Yeah. When do I put in that moment, you know, it would be, there'd be a lot of choices to be making there.

Speaker 2: 27:37

Absolutely. And you don't, and, you know, I have a rule, like I'm not repeating something, even if it's a totally different lunch, for example, that we've had together, but I don't wanna repeat any of, you know, we could have had the same conversation, but I'm not gonna repeat it. Yeah. Do you know? I mean, like, or we could have, I, I can, I can mention that, but I can't, nothing can feel, you know, to the reader, like, yeah, I've already read this scene, you know, mm-hmm<affirmative> so, um, and, and, and also back to your original question, you know, you know, how is it a book instead of just like a sort of fabulous sit down chat that you have with somebody, like an anecdote that you might tell somebody, you know, I really wanted the book to feel like I was sitting down and telling you this story so that you could have almost the experience as the reader of we're friends. And I'm telling you this story. Cause honestly it's an intimate story, but I also had this moment when I was writing, where I realized, you know, something, a book writing a book, and just like the act of reading a book is the most intimate thing you can do. That's not sex. I mean, it's the most intimate form of entertainment, you know, because sure. You know, people can watch a movie or whatever, but like, this is where you have the author's voice, your head like whispering in your head. Well, and you're lying in bed, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm<affirmative> as the reader. So I kind of was like using that. I never had the reader too far from me. So there's not one word in this book that I haven't read aloud as if I'm reading it to somebody or, or, you know, telling the story like, it's, you're my bestie or it's, or it is a solo show, you know, I never had the reader too far from me. I never, um, had the thought that this had to be also entertaining.

Speaker 1: 29:45

Yeah, no, I'm so glad you said that, because even as I was asking that question in my head, I'm thinking, you know, but it does kinda just feel like we're at a cocktail party and you're telling me this story. Um, and I love that. I love your voice in this book. Um, um, preparing for this interview, I feel like I know you, I feel like we're already best friends because I've read this book and it's a very intimate experience. Um, and that did actually make me wonder at one point, like for you, how much involvement there, when it came to, uh, second drafts, third drafts, revisions editing, because it has such a, a stream of consciousness feel to it at times that I was wondering, did you have like a really light touch? You didn't wanna mess with that too much? Or how did that go for you?

Speaker 2: 30:39

Well, I, I, that is, you know, a lot of my style. I, I do write, um, uh, tangentially, you know, there's a lot of tangents, there's a lot of, there is a lot of like, what's going on in my mind while this is going on, you know, while whatever's happening, I want the reader to know my, um, and, uh, again, I am so lucky I have a fabulous editor and this is our second book together. And so she knows my style and she both helps me, um, you know, streamline that also, uh, says to me, I want it more over here, like making sure that, you know, um, it, it doesn't get too much so that it's not, you know, followable, you know, for somebody mm-hmm<affirmative>, um, but also like, Hey, you know, you've left us out of this. Can you please, you know, bring us along? You know, it's, she, she's sort of the, the, the reader outside of she is my reader, my first reader who tells me I wanted to know more about this. And I wanted to know more about that. I cannot tell you how much I love my reader. I thought I loved performing in front of an audience and, and feeling the vibes of which is very powerful live, live entertaining. Mm-hmm<affirmative>, I, I didn't think I could love anything more than that. And just like connecting with readers is so huge for me. I love it so much. So again, this was my third time at the rodeo with a book and feeling like I was so liberated to do that with this story, I felt like I found my voice the most in this book than I've ever done before. That includes solo show. That includes all kinds of things. There was something about this story and how I was able to sort of navigate my way through all of these, all of these threads and, um, and try to keep it together, uh, which was really hard, but so satisfying when I could get it right. Or at least get it right, as far as my editor felt, but, you know, you know, when it feels right, you know, when it, when it just, it sounds like you, and that's why I say, you know, I have to read everything aloud. I have to read it aloud. It's just for myself. So I know that it sounds true, like the way I would talk, but also so that, you know, there's, I love words and the rhythm of, of words, and it has to be the right word. And so it's like, I, I agonize over every piece of it because, because I feel such, such a responsibility.

Speaker 1: 33:45

I love that you bring up your love of words. Um, I have this thing where if I come across a word I'm not familiar with, I will write it down. I have a, you know, a page in my phone that I jot new words, new vocabulary down. And it's maybe like once every three or four books I read, I'll be like, oh, this one's new. And, you know, go put it in that file. I had so many words. I eventually stopped writing down new words from your book, because there's just so much wonderful, interesting vocabulary. Um, so I like totally nerdy writer talk here at this point, but is that something that you have intentionally tried to cultivate, like just a, a usage of interesting words?

Speaker 2: 34:33

I don't know that it's like an, in an intentional cultivation in terms of the writing, but it's it. So is in terms of just me, like, it's a Nancy thing. I have always loved words. And, you know, I, if I wasn't a writer, you know, I would wanna be a lyricist, you know, a, a Broadway lyricist, because it's the, it's, it's the rhythm of words, the way they feel in your mouth. Again, I came from performing and my favorite playwrights were the, the super languagey ones, like Edward Alby, you know, um, or, or the classical ones like Shakespeare. And I just got so into the, the rhythm, the Pente the way a word, a particular word sounded, felt in the mouth. And also because they all mean something slightly subtly different mm-hmm<affirmative> and I wanna, I wanna be so exact about it. So I, of just over the course of my 56 years, I've learned a lot of words. Um, I've, I've just been, it's a thing it's like a nerdy thing that I did as a kid where I would just be like, oh, you know, what's another word for this, or what's another word for that. And sometimes when you're trying to find rhymes, you know, you're looking for, for different words and it's like, oh, that's a cool word. And I love the rhythm of that word and, you know, stuff like that. So now it just feels like a, a, a paint, uh, a Cray paw in my, in my toolbox. It's like, Ooh, I'm going to use the, um, that, that Perry Winkle, you know,<laugh> Mr. I don't even know how you say it.<laugh>, you know,

Speaker 1: 36:22

I think that was right. I think that was right.<laugh> I love that. No, I, my favorite words now are VI and more Don, thanks to you.<laugh> oh,

Speaker 2: 36:33

I love it. So I

Speaker 1: 36:36

Did find the use of emails really interesting. Um, a lot of the book is email communication, um, between you and Howie or between you and some of the other people that were meeting, is that, are these word for word, or did you go in and style them per the book?

Speaker 2: 36:58

They are pretty close. Um, there would be, again, um, there would be things in, uh, some of these emails that either felt, um, you know, gratuitous or, uh, were too erry, kind of mundane, you know, stuff that was necessary or relevant, um, or too tangential. Uh, so, you know, I edited them, um, some of, uh, Howie's emails, there were two that I actually put together because, you know, they, they just, they just needed to be together for, for, you know, the sake of time really mm-hmm<affirmative>, but they are pretty, they are pretty right. And then, you know, some are also like they were, there were conversations that we had that I needed to get that information in there. So I would add those instead of making, you know, doing the scene, I just added them into the email so that it would be sort of feel seamless that exposition could come out in that way. Mm-hmm,<affirmative>, you know, it's just another opportunity to get exposition out that might have taken place in a phone call. Um, but I just put it into the email, that kind of thing, but sure. Yeah. They're all, but, you know, by and large, they're pretty accurate with my Nancy judging.

Speaker 1: 38:33

<laugh> no, cause I do think that that's one of the, the biggest questions or dilemmas that, uh, someone faces when they're embarking on writing a memoir is this kind of gray area. It's the truth, it's real life, but how much am I allowed to push it? Like if I don't remember exactly what we ate that day, I can make up that meal. And that's a pretty easy, you know, simple thing that no one's gonna probably call you on, but how far can that be pushed? Um, what would you say to someone who's maybe struggling with that?

Speaker 2: 39:10

Well, I, I, I really, I really believe that the truth is the truth and, but I believe that, you know, it's also the truth and memory, you know, memory is very much interwoven with our emotions. Mm-hmm,<affirmative>, um, we'll remember it, that in the book, there's a memory that I have crystal clear of, uh, Howie. And, um, we are having a late night, uh, snack at a place called David's pot belly, a long, long gone, um, fabulous, uh, 24 hour restaurant in, in, uh, the west village in New York city. Um, and he doesn't remember, he knows that I'm probably right, that this happened. Like he believes me because he understands why he forgot, because what happens in that, in that, uh, during that meal is that I tell him that I, a after years of his push pull stuff and never wanting to actually have a relationship, this is when we were young. Um, I have found a man, um, and I'm in love. And so I'm not going to have, uh, a kind of, um, you know, gray area with him, uh, anymore. Um, I'm not gonna fool around with him anymore. Um, that's verboten now that I'm in a relationship and he doesn't remember this restaurant and more significantly, he doesn't remember eating their fabulous potato balls and David's popular made these absolutely incredible. They're like a, a, a cross between a French fry and a, and some kind of fritter. And they were believe you me, some of the most delicious, uh, AMA that you could have to your egg dish late at night. And, um, he doesn't remember it, and he's not a person who forgets a fried potato easily<laugh> so the only thing that he can come up with is that it's because he was so emotionally dev stated by my refusal to, uh, carry on with him at that point. That that's why he's forgotten it. But, but to your question, you know, there, you, you want to be as truthful as you can. And when it comes to things like you don't necessarily remember the meal you had, you know, I also think it's very powerful, uh, for a memoir writer to say what they don't remember. Mm-hmm<affirmative> as much what they do remember, number one, it, it, it helps the reader trust that you are not just giving them a bunch of, you know, BS you're, you're telling them the things you remember clearly. And you're also saying what you don't remember about it, because this is, this is you're, you're trying to get some trust going on between the you and the reader. And I think it's powerful, uh, what you, what you don't remember in some cases as if not more, um, but you wanna be truthful. And, um, but at the same time when there's things like time compression, you know, the, the things that novelists, uh, uh, have at their disposal, Willie nilly, those are things that I believe in, I believe that you can, you know, condense, you know, like I did with those emails, I, I put two together. They're both written by Howie. They were both written by Howie at the same time. It's just that, you know, uh, I don't, you know, I'm also writing an entertainment and, you know, I can't, I can't bore the reader, um, with every single, you know, uh, and Hmm. You know? Yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:03

No, and I love your point about sometimes you just don't remember, and there's meaning to that too. And it is so much about building that trust, um, with your reader. Do you ever, like talk to someone who was there, um, for, you know, whatever scene it is you're writing and ask like, Hey, what do you remember about this?

Speaker 2: 43:25

Absolutely. I, I, I absolutely do that as well. And I, um, I do that with my daughter who has in, um, basically she's been in all three books. I mean, the first book I was, um, I wrote, I I'd already had her, but it goes up to when I was pregnant with her. Um, but I've, I've always asked her, uh, to make sure that that made sense to her. Um, I asked, uh, many of the people at London terrace, my neighbors, I asked Howie. Um, do you remember this, or do you remember that it can be incredibly helpful to get, um, their perspective? Oh, there's some something so funny. I asked, um, I had written, I had remembered Mr. Remembered that Troy, um, one of my friends in the book was wearing the first day we met was wearing, um, uh, Valencia sneakers, leopard print, Valencia sneakers. And he pointed out to me, um, that they were not Valencia. They were LA<laugh>. And I said, that's why I needed you to read this.<laugh>. I mean, my God, I wouldn't want the readers to think you were wearing Valencia. That's what I'm wearing now. But back then I was wearing, oh,

Speaker 1: 44:52

Funny, good fact checking.<laugh> very,

Speaker 2: 44:54

Very important fact checking, but yes, I absolutely do that. Um, and, uh, and I, and I do recommend that if it's not a difficult conversation to have, um, I, I, I do so. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 45:12

So I am curious, you know, you talked about how much you love your readers and, and I get that entirely. Like, I feel like I have such a connection with the readers. That's not like any other relationship in my life, and it's a really special thing. Um, memoir and it's is such a vulnerable genre. I mean, you're really digging into some things that can be, you know, very deeply personal and experiences and emotions. Is it difficult to put it out there? Do you think that, I mean, every writer, experiences, rejection, every writer, experiences, criticism, you know, bad reviews, all of this, yes. For memoir. Is it particularly difficult to put yourself out there and open yourself up to these, these, you know, possible rejection possible criticism? And can you do that without taking it personally?

Speaker 2: 46:16

Um, I, uh, take everything personally.<laugh> I

Speaker 1: 46:22

Where's that<laugh>,

Speaker 2: 46:24

I have the thin skin imaginable. I mean, everything makes me, you know, cry, everything affects me. Everything is I feel this very, very deeply. I don't think there's a difference for me, uh, between putting your work out there and ha for judgment, whether it's, um, fiction or, or non-fiction that's for me. Um, is it particularly, um, hard when, you know, there's there's reviews, particularly like, you know, the Amazon reviews that like are just, you know, uh, you know, the, the online kind of reviews can be so, um, devastatingly, um, harsh, right? Hmm. I don't read those. I think the, the, the, um, distance that PE that the internet, uh, affords people, gives those who are, um, writing nasty reviews, a a kind of a kind of leverage and, um, sort of safe, safe space seemingly to, to go on the attack. My editor believes that, um, that from her point of view, that she notices that people are way more harsh to women and they are way more harsh to women who write memoir mm-hmm<affirmative>. So, um, you know, I am, and I, and I, I would agree with her. I would agree with that assessment though. I, I, I just, I keep myself away from all of that. Um, it's, it can be incredibly sexist. It can be incredibly cruel. Um, and it's really none of my business, as they say, in, um, in, uh, recovery rooms, you know, it's like, it, it, and another recovery slogan. And, and by the way, I I'm not even in AA, so I'm not sure why<laugh>, I'm like now parroting these phrases, but, um, there was a, there's an expression it's only your, it's your secrets, your secrets keep you sick. And, you know, as much as I'm a person who feels everything and, and really does have like the thin and imaginable, um, there's something so truly liberating about just saying, you know what, um, this is what happened. This is what I did. This is what I, this is how, how I thought of myself at that time. I really struggled with a lot of self-esteem and a lot of self-confidence and a lot of, um, a host of issues that plague, um, uh, women, men, humans, um, and, uh, I need to share it, you know, and I'm not necessarily good at that in real life. You know, I, I tend to be more, the one who's listening to, um, stuff than I am with feeling like I wanna share my sorrows or the, the things that have been hard for me, my struggles, my challenges, um, if I can figure out a way to do it in as entertainment, um, then, and as a way that can connect with other people that can help somebody else, that's the way I feel comfortable, kind of processing my stuff. And, and along those lines, the other thing I wanna say is God memoir writers are, I feel like the luckiest writers people of all, because who else gets to process. And I mean, really processed up, you can go to therapy and you can process all kinds of, right? You can process it, you can go through it, you can move on from it, but the level to which you process when you're turning it into a story or a book that is to be read by other people. And like, as, as, as a form of connection, a form of human connection, my God, there's, you, you couldn't possibly do that in a therapy session. Even a, if you did talked about the same thing for years and years and years, because you're not required to go that deep and be that honest, you know, I feel like my readers keep me more honest than my string.<laugh>

Speaker 1: 51:02

No, I love that way of thinking about it and I can, yeah, totally see what you're saying. And, and I do think it's so important for any writer, no matter what genre you're writing in to focus on the people who do respond to what you're saying and who do care about what you're saying, and, you know, ignore the naysayers.

Speaker 2: 51:24

I really try and do that because yeah,

Speaker 1: 51:26

I do too.

Speaker 2: 51:27

You've got to, I mean, I, I get the most beautiful DMS emails, whatever, from people mm-hmm, it's like, you know, sure. The instinct might be, or might have been to like, say that. Yeah. But what about, you know, these people who hate it? Or what about these people who don't like my writing style or who, you know, or who, I don't know, it's not for them, you know, it's

Speaker 1: 51:57

Not for them. No, that's, that's kinda my it's, it's so subjective. Every book can't be for every reader.

Speaker 2: 52:03

It's, it's so subjective. I remember one time I, um, I sent my aunt, um, a copy of Nora Efrons, um, I feel bad about my neck. And I thought, this is, this is such a crowd pleaser. This is what I call the scrambled egg of books. Like, there's no way to prove that<laugh>, you know, it's like, no, one's gonna not like this, or not at least see that it's ramble egg. It it's just a crowd pleaser. Well,<laugh>, I sent it to my aunt as a gift and she had all kinds of issues with Nora with what her style with whatever. And I thought, oh my God, I thought Nora Efron was unimpeachable. Um, but you know, it it's like my aunt said she didn't dig it. And I thought, okay, well, I mean, that's not nor that's not typical, but, um, but it can happen. So I think you just have to look at it like that. It's like, Hey, it's not for everyone. Go, go, uh, with, with peace, you know? Yeah. No must day.

Speaker 1: 53:13

<laugh>. Exactly. No. And I think, I mean, we've all been on both sides. I mean, there's been plenty of, you know, huge, popular best sellers that my best friend loved Marisa. You've got to read this and I read it and I'm fairly indifferent. Like we've all experienced both sides of the, the equation there. Yeah, sure.

Speaker 2: 53:33

For sure. And you know, something that's totally fine. I think what people need to not do is tag a Raider when they're thank

Speaker 1: 53:43

You.

Speaker 2: 53:44

Like, what is that? You know, let's

Speaker 1: 53:46

Get some, some Twitter etiquette outta the way<laugh>

Speaker 2: 53:50

Right. Like, um, thank you. But you know, right. Like I get it. It's not for you, but I don't need you to tag me. Yeah,

Speaker 1: 54:02

Yeah, no, I, I get it. I so get it. Um, all right. Are you ready for our bonus round?

Speaker 2: 54:09

Uh, sure.

Speaker 1: 54:12

Cake or pie.

Speaker 2: 54:14

Oh, cake

Speaker 1: 54:15

Riding in the morning or riding at night.

Speaker 2: 54:20

Gosh, that's hard. Um, cause I write, oh,

Speaker 1: 54:29

It's funny. This is not one that usually stumps people.

Speaker 2: 54:33

It's so hard for me because I really it's like, it's like I have to do it when it I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say mourn

Speaker 1: 54:43

New York or Los Angeles,

Speaker 2: 54:45

New York, please. What

Speaker 1: 54:48

Is your favorite writing snack or

Speaker 2: 54:51

Beverage? Uh, pretzels and yellow mustard.

Speaker 1: 54:57

If almost romance had a theme song, what would it be?

Speaker 2: 55:01

Oh my gosh. I have an entire Spotify for this<laugh>. I mean, I created a that's like AR INPO. Um,<laugh> uh, I, I, I think, um, if I could write a book, that's the name of the song.

Speaker 1: 55:18

Okay. So on that note, did you play your Spotify playlist at the wedding?

Speaker 2: 55:25

No, I did not because it was a Spotify play that was created, uh, as, uh, almost romance INPO. So as the writing INPO. Mm.

Speaker 1: 55:36

So not necessarily like tied to the actual relationship,

Speaker 2: 55:40

It is tied to the relationship, but it made me like, it conjured a time that we were together or yeah. Homes that we dug together from, you know, uh, over the course of, I mean, even songs from like the seventies that we loved, just I would put on, you know, that yeah. Just to inspire like the mood of where I needed to be emotionally for writing it.

Speaker 1: 56:06

What is the best writing advice you you have ever received?

Speaker 2: 56:12

It was, it's so amazing because it was actually not meant as writing advice, but I consider it my very first writing lesson. I was in a singing class when I was years old with all adults and a woman who danced, uh, uh, I call her the Fosse dancer. She danced with Bob Fosse in several shows. Uh, the, the famous choreographer, Bob Fosse danced for him, I should say, in several shows. And when she got up to sing, she was talking about something and she said, Fosse said, start big, know where the turns are, finish big. And when I was 12 years old, I knew this was important information. And, um, the moment I started writing, I went, the Fosse dancer is my first writing teacher. And I used that all the time. I think it's, and I tell this to anybody that I'm, you know, uh, that any, anybody who wants writing advice,<laugh> start big, know where the turns are. Finish big.

Speaker 1: 57:13

I love that. That is a great way of thinking about story. Yeah. What book makes you happy?

Speaker 2: 57:24

Oh gosh, there are so many, um, you know, I'm gonna just say the wizard of Oz. Mm. A wonderful wizard of Oz.

Speaker 1: 57:34

What are you working on next?

Speaker 2: 57:36

I am working on an adaptation of almost romance for television or film.

Speaker 1: 57:44

Oh, fun. Oh, I'm so excited to hear that. Yeah. I hope it goes forward.

Speaker 2: 57:49

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 57:51

Lastly, where can people find you?

Speaker 2: 57:54

They can find me on Instagram at Nancy Bebe. Uh, you can also find me, um, on my website, Nancy bebe.com and uh, yeah. I'm, I'm very of, I'm very reachable on Instagram. I respond to all messages there and on my website.

Speaker 1: 58:18

Awesome. Nancy, thank you so much for joining me today and being my awesome 100th guest. Oh

Speaker 2: 58:23

My gosh. Marisa, that is just made my day. I love being your hundred guest and I've loved talking to you. You are fabulous. Oh

Speaker 1: 58:32

Boy. Thank you. You're fabulous too. And I don't just say that. Cause I feel like I've been at a cocktail party with you for the last four days.<laugh>

Speaker 2: 58:39

Oh, I love it. I love it.

Speaker 1: 58:41

Raiders. Be sure to check out almost romance. It comes out tomorrow. Of course, we always encourage you to support your local independent bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marissa Meer. Next week, I will be talking with debut author, Lisa Stringfellow about her middle grade fantasy Acomb of wishes, which hi, I'm going to start reading to my girls at bedtime tonight. I am very excited for it. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marisa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I do hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.