A Grumpy x Sunshine Romance with TJ Alexander - Chef's Kiss

Marissa chats with TJ Alexander about their debut romance - CHEF'S KISS - as well as some suggestions for writing luscious food descriptions, including actually testing out some of the recipes you're trying to describe; the oft-told (but debatable?) advice that if you can do anything other than write, then you should do that; considering your story's built-in tension and need for emotional distance when deciding between a single or dual point of view format; two of our favorite romance tropes - the slow burn and the grumpy x cheerful pairing - and how the two can work together to make for an organic romance; and some excellent advice for writers about to start looking for a literary agent: don't write a query letter, write the jacket copy for your future book. (Your future editor will thank you!)

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers, more books, to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host Marisa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. One thing that is making me so unbelievably, ridiculously happy this week is that in two days I am getting on an airplane and flying to salt lake city to see partless the musical. And I know I've talked about it on this podcast before I know talked about it, plenty on Instagram. Um, so I think most of you are probably pretty familiar with it at this point. Uh, but if you're just joining in one of my early books is being adapted for a stage musical by a group of students, uh, teenage high schoolers in salt lake city, and they are killing it. They are so talented. They have written the script, the music, the lyrics choreographed, the dance directed. I mean, all of it, they are so incredible. I'm so impressed with them and just giddy, unbelievably excited, and just all of the wonderful things. I cannot wait to go and meet them in person and watch the show. It's such a great, huge, humongous honor. I can't even believe it's happening this week. Finally, I feel like it's been a long time that we've been kinda chatting about it. And now it is here. Also, we are nearing the end of, of April, which means that our two year anniversary contest is almost at its end. If you haven't entered it yet, we are giving away query critiques, uh, from myself and from Joanne levy. And one winner will get a query critique from my agent, Jill Grinberg. Uh, the contest ends April 30. So if you are interested, check out all the details on Instagram at happy writer podcast. And of course I am so happy to be talking to today's guest. They're an amateur baker with a master's degree in writing and publishing from Emerson college and their debut romance. Chef's kiss is coming out soon on May 3rd, please. Welcome TJ Alexander.

Speaker 2 2:32

Hello. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 2:34

Thank you so much for joining me. How are you feeling here so close to your launch week?

Speaker 2 2:40

Yes, it is coming. It is imminent. I am, um, I I'm trying not to freak out about it.<laugh> I'm trying to just kind of enjoy everything as it happens. Cause it's the first time it'll happen and you know, it's, um, it's, it's going pretty. It's going well and it's pretty wild.

Speaker 1 3:00

Yeah, no, it's, it's a weird thing. I feel like the buildup to the launch is like so full of just excitement and activity and like you're doing so much trying to promote it and do the social media thing and all of these things, and then it happens and there's inevitably this like period after the book comes out that you're like, well now what?

Speaker 2 3:22

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that actually a lot<laugh> of, um, question marks. That'll be great for me. Uh, I think, no, I, I mean the last couple of weeks have just been so busy. I was telling some friends of mine. I've never had a kid, uh, but I can only imagine that this is what it must be like to be pregnant. My brain is just mush all of the time. I don't know what's happening or what day it is ever. Um, yeah, it's, it's a wonderful experience.

Speaker 1 3:55

Yeah, I know. I know, but, but it is a wonderful experience and so exciting. And as I'm speaking, one of my daughters kind of popped in and you just heard the door close.<laugh> like, you know, books and babies.

Speaker 2 4:09

<laugh> very similar, very similar. Right?

Speaker 1 4:12

Um, well, congratulations. It's I think that trying to approach it as, uh, you know, just, and enjoying it as much as possible, I think that's really the way to go. Cause what else can you do? Your first book is coming out. It's such a cool time.

Speaker 2 4:28

Yeah. It is such a cool time and there is literally nothing else I could do.<laugh> like, I, my part is for the most, for the most part, it it's, you know, I'm done. Um, you know, I did my bit, uh, so it's a lot of just kind of like seeing things happen and, and reacting to them like, oh, that's cool.<laugh>

Speaker 1 4:49

Right, right. Oh, that they're doing that for me too. Awesome. Yeah.

Speaker 2 4:53

<laugh>

Speaker 1 4:54

Yeah. All right. Well, the first question that I always start out these chats with is I would like know your origin story. How did you know you wanted to be a writer and how did that progress to today here on the Eve of your debut coming out?

Speaker 2 5:15

Well, uh, forged in the mouth of a volcano<laugh>

Speaker 1 5:19

<laugh>

Speaker 2 5:21

Many, many years

Speaker 1 5:22

Ago, a great start, keep going.<laugh>

Speaker 2 5:25

No, um, my origins, I mean, I worked in publishing for a hot minute, many, many years ago. Um, I was not in the writing or editing or creative side of things at all. Uh, and then just sort of, you know, I think when, uh, 2020 rolled around, I had been, you know, kind of playing around with some ideas, you know, writing for fun on my own. Um, I really wanted to, you know, as a new year's resolution kind of buckle down and, and, you know, I told some of my other writer, friends who do it as a hobby. Like I, you know, we should just, this is the year, this is the, we should just find some time to, to get this, to get a real book done, to write a full length novel. And, you know, in January and February I was like, yeah, that's gonna happen for sure. And I, and it was not happening. I was

Speaker 1 6:21

Stop me

Speaker 2 6:22

It. Yeah. Well, there was lots of things that could stop me, like just not doing it<laugh> um, and then the pandemic hit and like a lot of people, I found myself with way more time on my hands than I had expected to have. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, so sitting down to write chef's kiss after like, kind of having the idea for, for a while, uh, just happened in kind of a bit of a, a, a panic, I guess you could say just a, just a fevered dream panic situation. Um, I wrote the first draft in about six weeks weeks. Oh, wow. And yeah, it was not healthy or good for me as a person<laugh><laugh>. Um, but you know, we were all dealing with stuff and, uh, and, and then, you know, I, I thought this could be something, maybe we got something here and I did my, did my query journey and found a great agent and here we are.

Speaker 1 7:22

Wow. So at what point, so, you know, you'd mentioned that you had gone into publishing, was writing and being a writer, like had that been a distant dream or was it totally just like, you know, 20, 20? I dunno. Let's try writing a book.

Speaker 2 7:38

I mean,<laugh>, I, I think it was a, a, it was a dream that I think I had put off for a very long time when, when I was in college, I was, you know, an English major and, and studying writing. Um, and one of our professors who was a very talented, um, short story, literary writer, our class, if you have literally any other skills, don't do this.<laugh> she said, don't do this as a job. This is a terrible job. You don't, you're not gonna wanna do it. So just, just, if you can do something else, do that instead. And I thought, well, you know, I could do something else, I guess. So I thought, well, I'll, I'll get into the, sort of the, the, you know, business side of publishing and marketing and, and things like that. And when I was graduating and she was kind of a mentor figure to me when I told her that that's what I was gonna pursue. She said, oh, I kind of hoped that you wouldn't listen to that advice. I mean, can I curse on this podcast? I'm so sorry if I, if I'm not, no, no,

Speaker 1 8:44

That's fine.<laugh>

Speaker 2 8:46

I was like, this is something that you could have told me<laugh> before I, you know, made all these major life decisions. So, um, yeah, so that was many, many years ago that that happened and<laugh>, and I've been carrying around the, uh, you know, um, the, the motive for revenge for a long time.

Speaker 1 9:07

Oh my gosh. That is so funny.

Speaker 2 9:09

Yeah.

Speaker 1 9:10

You know, and I've heard that before that advice that like, if you can do anything, why would you subject yourself to this, the life of writing? And it's like, you know, this is to everything that I stand for as a writer. So every time I hear it, I just cringe. I'm like, yeah, live your dream. It

Speaker 2 9:27

It's not, it. The thing is like, I, I get where she's coming from. It wasn't the worst advice you could give a room full of people who let's be honest at the time. We're not very good writers,

Speaker 1 9:38

<laugh>

Speaker 2 9:40

She, she probably was, wasn't giving the worst advice, but, you know, I just, I, I, I wish that at any point someone had taken me aside and said, you know, I don't know, maybe you could do this, give it a shot. Like, what's the worst thing that could happen. Um, that would've been, you know, probably more helpful to me in the long run, but you know, who knows, who knows what would've happened.

Speaker 1 10:03

Right. Do you feel that now? I mean, I know that you're still, you know, in the early phases of your writing career, would you give that advice to somebody?

Speaker 2 10:14

Oh God, I, don't

Speaker 1 10:15

Sorry. She's back. What's up, honey.<laugh> Do you know where my Easter notebook is? Do I know where your Easter notebook is? Um, we took it with our school stuff yesterday. So maybe it's in the pile of school stuff, or maybe I put it on the pile of notebooks on the bookshelf. How old? Okay. No more coming out here. Okay. I'll come in in an hour. All right.

Speaker 2 10:42

Easter notebook. Gosh,

Speaker 1 10:45

No, can't use one of the other 20 notebooks. We've got, it has to be the new fancy Easter notebook.<laugh>

Speaker 2 10:52

It's got, yeah, it's got

Speaker 1 10:54

To anyway. I think I asked you, uh, if you would give that, that same advice now, here you are. What do you think?

Speaker 2 11:02

You know, I don't know. I don't know. I, I mean, I guess if somebody, you know, who I was teaching and that I thought, you know, maybe had some kind of talent, but you know, it's, it's really hard to say, cuz you know, who knows, who knows what might happen if you just stick with something? Yeah. Um, like, like I ended up doing really stubbornly, but in private where no one could make fun of me. Um, I don't know. I, I, I guess I would tell people, just like, do do, what's gonna make you happy. And if it works out, it works out. And if it doesn't, you know, this isn't something that's like, like either, or it's not like, oh, you know, I, I didn't get, you know, I didn't get an agent or I didn't sell my first manuscript or you know, this didn't work out. So it's never gonna work out. You know, I, I hear from other writer, friends all the time that like, oh, the one that I sold, you know, that was my seventh, eighth, 10th manuscript, you know? It's yeah. I, so yeah, I guess I would tell people like, as long as you're having a good time with it, as long as it's giving you something, you know, why not keep, keep at it?

Speaker 1 12:08

Yeah, no, I like that. I think that's fair. I think that's a balanced approach to it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 12:12

I, I think the funny thing about that advice though, is like, there are a whole lot of ways to define, like being able to do something, you know, like I, I was able to do other jobs and go into other careers and, you know, pursue other interests, but like, was I happy doing it? Like, absolutely not. Even though I was physically able to do a lot of other different kinds of jobs. This is kind of the only one that I'm actually good at in a way that like, for me, that it's good for me. Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm just, I'm just happy to be here.

Speaker 1 12:50

<laugh> yeah, yeah, no, I know. And I feel that way too. Like, I feel so lucky that I get to do this and like, could I do other things? Sure. And maybe I could've even done them well, but I don't think anything would be as fulfilling to me as is what I get to do now.

Speaker 2 13:07

For sure. For sure. Yeah.

Speaker 1 13:09

Well, that's a perfect time to pause and let's talk about your debut book coming out. Will you please tell listeners what is chef's kiss about?

Speaker 2 13:20

Sure. So chef's kiss is the story of Simone, who is this sort of uptight, very, um, uh, traditional pastry chef who works at a old school C hook book publisher, which is her dream job. She loves what she does. And then one day the company decides that they're going to bring their business model into the 21st century. And she's going to have to, you know, make video content and be on social media and do all this stuff that she has no interest in doing and is actually very bad at. Um, and so while she is busy being anxious and a huge mess over that, um, a new kitchen manager is introduced in, into, uh, the workplace and this person Ray, um, becomes very friendly with Simone, even though they are total opposite and do not get along at first from Simone's point of view,<laugh>, especially at the beginning. And, um, Ray accidentally sort of goes viral with a series of, uh, brewing videos. Uh, they're a home brewer, so that takes off. And as soon as that happens, their, um, job forces them to work together, uh, uh, on a new video series. Um, and so that's when that's when their, their romance starts to bloom<laugh> dot, dot.do.do

Speaker 1 14:47

Starks begin to play?

Speaker 2 14:49

Yeah,

Speaker 1 14:50

It's such a fun story and I love anything to do with food and say it food baking. And like when a book has really just luscious descriptions of food and like really goes into detail of like, you know, the crunchy pistachios and the salty cheese, or like whatever it is, that's like my happy place. And so this book, I was just like hungry the whole time I was smiling the whole time I loved it.

Speaker 2 15:25

Oh, good. I mean, that's, that's the biggest compliment, right? Like when I'm writing about food, I'm just like, first of all, always obsessed with it. Always hungry.<laugh> always, always being like, oh, can I just finish this chapter so I can like, please have lunch. So<laugh>, so that's where that energy is coming from. Um, and to, to hear that people are, you know, reading about my descriptions of food and cooking, getting hungry, that's just like the biggest, uh, win in my book.

Speaker 1 15:56

Yeah, no, I mean, obviously it's food is very thematic throughout the whole book. Um, did you, do you come from a background of food writing? Cause like it was really good.

Speaker 2 16:06

Oh, I, I mean, no, I've never professionally written about food. Cause it,

Speaker 1 16:13

I was like, I could totally,

Speaker 2 16:14

No, just, um, just kind of in my own head as that happened for, for no money. Um, no, I, I mean, I do have a background in food, the food industry, um, my parents owned a restaurant when I was little and I kind of grew up in that environment and I did basically every job you could have as, uh, a person in a restaurant besides cooking or being a chef. Um, so I've been around it for most of my life. I've waited tables and, and tended bar and done all that stuff. Um, but yeah, I've, uh,<laugh> I had not learned to cook for myself until I was like embarrassingly into adulthood, like much older than you should be when you need to learn how to fend for yourself. So, um, yeah, but I, I do love cooking and I love baking. Um, I'm not a professional at it by any means, but I do, you know, I do love doing that arm share quarterback thing of watching, um, food competition shows and thinking, wow, I, I could have done that better.<laugh> like, I, I couldn't have done that better, but it,

Speaker 1 17:32

Your top chef is like one of my all favorite shows. Um, and I remember there was a, there's been times when I'm watching the show and it gets to the part where the cooks are like standing before the judges and have to describe what they've made. And there have been times when all of a sudden my husband starts like talking over it. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. This is the best part right here. This is what I've watched this last 50 minutes for is just hearing them describe this

Speaker 2 17:59

<laugh>. Oh, amazing. Yeah, you can't skip over that part. That's the, that's the money shot right there.

Speaker 1 18:04

It's it? It's it. Um, so let's talk crap, cause this is a writing craft podcast. Um, so for you writing these just wonderfully rich descriptions of food full of so much detail, how did you do it? Was there research involved? Was that like, did you actually go and eat similar foods or were you just like kind of making it up? What was your process there?

Speaker 2 18:31

I mean, I, like I said, I I'm a home cook. Uh, everything I make like personally is usually pretty simple. Um, but unfortunately Simone is a professional. Like she knows what she's doing. She could, yeah, yeah. She could have, she could have been on top chef. Uh, and I, and I could not have been on top chef. Um, but I, I think that, uh, you know, half of the fun of being super into food, even if you maybe don't have these, you know, amazing skills is, you know, learning new things and, and trying new stuff out. And, uh, the way that the recipes in the book kind of came about is, you know, maybe there were like two or three things that I, I can cook or that I I'm really comfortable cooking. And I just kind of thought like, if I, you know, did actually know what I was doing, what would this look like?<laugh> and just sort of like adding more things and, you know, thinking like, well, a profess have this element, you know, she'd make sure there was crunch. She'd make sure there was salt. She'd make sure there was, you know, um, some chili or something, you know, spicy in the background. Like, because, you know, I'm, I'm just obsessed with all these shows where these cooks get to tell us their thought processes. Yeah. So, um, so they, they were just recipes that I'd never made before that were just kind kind of like imagined, you know, sometimes out of thin air and once the book sold and you know, my pub publisher was just so excited about it. And my editor has been obviously very supportive of it. They were very excited to, you know, well, you gotta write down the recipes and give us some, some recipes for like the, you know, book we can make bookmarks out them. Oh my God, that'll be so cute. And I was like, oh my God, a real person is gonna have to make this. And they're like, yeah. And it's you so that you can write them down. And I was like, oh my God, holy. So I bought so many groceries and spent like a week and a half in my kitchen trying to create these things that, you know, are in the book. And I was like, is hard. Like<laugh> people who do this for a living are like, they're wizards. This is not easy. So I'm like, you know, adjusting things in the, that, you know, are just imaginary. They're just imaginary food. Um, but then they became real and I was like, whoa, dang. This is, um, you know, a whole different level. I was glad that I hadn't started out trying to make the food first because then I would've just given up. I would've just never written a book at<laugh>.

Speaker 1 21:01

Well, this is a terrible idea. Yeah. Do you feel like writing Simone's character and kind of going through that thought processes with her, do you feel like you've been made a better cook having written this?

Speaker 2 21:16

Oh, absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Like there were, um, parts of the book where I, I knew that I wanted like something, you know, a recipe like this, I wanted you a chocolate something or a, a, a, a salty sweet something, or, you know, whatever. And E you know, even though I wasn't,<laugh> a mastermind or anything, I thought, well, I need to know how you would make this. I, I need to know what, like what ingredients she has on her bench. I need to know what equipment she needs. Mm-hmm<affirmative>. So I was doing a lot of research like that. I of looking up recipes and, and flipping through cookbooks and seeing, you know, what I could do with that. Um, but yeah, I, I ended, I did end up making a lot of things that I had never made before. Like, who makes, you know, homemade pastry for a Gillette? Like what, like, my wife was like, what even is a Gillette? I'm like, it's an open, you know what, you're just don't even worry about it. Don't even worry about

Speaker 1 22:09

It.<laugh>

Speaker 2 22:12

So, yeah. I, I definitely learned a lot through her for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 1 22:16

Yeah. Um, no, and I love it. How, you know, Simone, her character is, you know, kind of prickly at times. Um, you know, she's a little standoffish, but like, she's the one that can cook. And so everybody wants to be her friend<laugh>, it's like, oh, we all wanna be on your good side. Simone, will you please make me food?

Speaker 2 22:38

<laugh> it's like the grumpy cat that doesn't want anyone to like, pick it up, but like, oh, it's so cute. And it's just people just keep trying to pick it up. Um, yeah, no, some is, is definitely the, the grumpy one out of the two of them. And, uh, I was just very excited to write a, uh, a grumpy gal, just, uh, just, just they're a lot of fun, so yeah, yeah,

Speaker 1 23:04

Yeah, no, I relate a lot to Simone. Um, you know, because just like the perfectionism element and like super type a, um, but also like her heart is always in the right place. She's a little awkward. She doesn't always know the right thing to do, but you can tell she's trying and I just adored her.

Speaker 2 23:23

Oh yeah. I think that if you know, any of the characters are, uh, a version of my it's Simone, like mm-hmm,<affirmative>, I, I, I just, yeah, her anxiety is her driving force and her need to be perfect all the time. Uh, even though that is not healthy is a, a driving force. And I, I find that very relatable. I was, yeah. I was a little shocked when I was first working on it and, you know, querying going through the, the rigors of, um, criticism. Um, I was getting some feedback from people saying like, well, people don't like it when a woman is so standoffish and so prickly. And I was like, really well, some people don't have good taste

Speaker 1 24:07

<laugh> well, most people do not hear my book.<laugh>.

Speaker 2 24:12

I mean, I, you know, I think there's a lot, I, I would imagine there's a lot of misogyny in this view that like, oh, the woman has to be the nice one or the sweet one mm-hmm<affirmative> or the, the outgoing funny one. And it's like, well, not, I mean, I guess, I guess sometimes, but like, I don't know, I, in my experience, uh, this kind of pairing where a woman who, especially a woman who, you know, is rising through the ranks of the food world, um, you know, of course she'd be prickly, of course, she'd be standoffish. She's seen some, you know,<laugh>,

Speaker 1 24:44

Mm-hmm<affirmative> and she's, she's very focused. Like she's got other things to think about right now.

Speaker 2 24:49

Yes. She's very career focused. Um, when we first meet her. Yeah. And to, to the, you know, detriment of pretty much every other part of her life

Speaker 1 24:59

<laugh> well, she has to have somewhere of grow. Right.

Speaker 2 25:02

<laugh> yes. And she, she does, we get to see her blossom and fall in love and realize that, you know, it's work is not the only thing. Her food is not the only thing. Um, so yeah, it, that was fun. That was fun to see.

Speaker 1 25:17

Yeah. No, and I, I think that her and Ray are so cute. I just, in general, I have always loved, you know, this, um, I guess it's kind of a trope, you know, the pairing of, you know, how one person can be very standoffish and a little grumpy. And then the other is just like a little beam of sunshine. And I just think that's the cutest and they work together. It's the best good.

Speaker 2 25:41

It's the best. And the best part about that trope, which is like, you know, top tier one of my all time favorite, um, you know, dynamics for a couple in a romance is that, you know, even though they start out as like one is grumpy, one is happy, you know, we get to see them sort of shift as the story progresses. We get to see maybe a little darkness in the one that's always sun shining. We get to see a little bit of softness in the one that was always so like hard shelled and prickly. And yeah. So I, I, I, I just love that. That's the good stuff, you know?

Speaker 1 26:15

Yeah. How much did you know these two characters going into the story, like, you know, page one first draft, versus how much did they kind of do develop as you were writing?

Speaker 2 26:30

I mean, I think I knew pretty much everything about them before I started writing. Like I said, I, I had been thinking about, you know, writing, uh, a book and this book in particular for, for a while before I actually got a chance to sit down and, and do it. Hmm. So I, I had an idea that Simone was going to be this very, you know, tough exterior, no nonsense kind of person that the, the tension and the funny moments were going to come from the fact that she was that, that way. And, you know, didn't feel like changing and then enters someone who's like the exact opposite. And then that, you know, starts to change her. Um, and I, and I knew, I knew that I don't wanna spoil too much. There were certain aspects of Ray's past and backstory that were a surprise that like I got to that point in the book and I realized like, oh, this is why they're the way they're. Yeah. You know, so that was, um, you know, that was a, a, a fun, a fun surprise, I think. Well, maybe I shouldn't say fun because it's rather tragic and sad. Yeah.

Speaker 1 27:40

Writer, like when things come together and you, like, it almost feels like it was that way, all along your brain just hadn't clued you in yet. And I love that

Speaker 2 27:50

Tho those are the exciting moments when like, you know, maybe it was subconscious or maybe it's just serendipity, but, you know, when all of a sudden, uh, things just kind of start piecing together and you're like, oh, okay, well, man, oh, this is good. You know, that's very

Speaker 1 28:05

Exciting. And then it just tugs on those heartstrings.

Speaker 2 28:08

Yeah.

Speaker 1 28:10

Um, was Simone always gonna be the, the one and only point of view? Like, did you ever play with the idea of, of, uh, including some from Ray's point of view?

Speaker 2 28:21

You know, I, I think that, but before I started writing, I sat down and I wanted to really think through what the point of view would be like, because I, I know that, you know, a lot of romances switch points of view between the two leads and, and that in some instances works out super great for me personally, I, I'm not a fan usually of writing that way, because I like the sort of tension of, you know, we're only seeing things from one person's perspective. Mm-hmm<affirmative>, and there's kind of this, you know, there's this tension and humor that comes from us, the audience and the reader realizing something that that person does not realize. And yeah. You know, we, we are smart enough to put together the clues and realize that, you know, Simone, this person was in love with you idiot

Speaker 1 29:20

<laugh>.

Speaker 2 29:22

Yeah. So that you're like shouting, hopefully at her, the, the last, uh, quarter of the book, like, get it together, like get, like, why can't you see what is so obvious to me? And, and that to me is like, especially for a slow burn, like this book is yes. I, I think is, uh, was something that I wanted to, um, you know, stick with. And, and also, and, you know, some people may, may not agree, but this is how I decided to go, uh, and deal with it. Um, you know, I don't think it's a spoiler to say that, you know, Ray is not out as non-binary at the beginning of the book when we meet them. Mm-hmm<affirmative>, and it's only, you know, later in the story that they come out, um, in that, in that environment they've been out, um, in the, in their real life<laugh> for, for quite some time. But, um, but yeah, I, I didn't want to tell the story switching between the two points of view, mostly because there's a, a really long history in media that has been made by, and for a CIS audience where the tragedy of being transgender or non-binary, or is kind of, you know, pumped up to levels that are, um, really uncomfortable for me to, uh, see an experience. And I wanted to avoid that here and the best way that I could think to avoid it was, you know, well, maybe we're just not getting all of race thoughts, maybe we're not seeing every, you know, um, uh, every bit of pain that, you know, misgender, um, can, can come with. And I just, yeah, I wanted this to be a more joyful exploration of that, of, of that experience of what was happening. And, you know, I think that meant getting some distance from it. So that's, that's why we ended up with Simone's perspective.

Speaker 1 31:21

Yeah. No, and that makes sense, cuz it does kind of offer this, this buffer there.

Speaker 2 31:27

Yeah. And you know, because Simone cares about this person, we still, as a, as an audience, get to, you know, see how, how, you know, painful, some things can be mm-hmm<affirmative> or, or, or how uncomfortable some things are. Um, um, but it, I don't know. I just, I, I didn't feel the need for a front row seat<laugh> on this one. Yeah. So yeah, yeah,

Speaker 1 31:52

Yeah. And it also, I mean, you mentioned, um, the slow burn of the romance and I feel like, I mean, I, I love both ways the, the single point of view or the point of view, I think they can both work depending on what type of story you're wanting to tell. Oh, sure. In this case, like Ray has, again here, we don't wanna spoil things, but the reveal having to do with Ray's past, um, that, that would've been more difficult to keep from the reader and that, but when we are told it makes for such a powerful, um, emotional scene.

Speaker 2 32:28

Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Speaker 1 32:31

Um, all right. Let's talk specifically about building romance. Um, and you know, the, I love a good slow burn and these two characters take forever.<laugh>

Speaker 2 32:47

Many, many, many pages,

Speaker 1 32:48

Many, many, many pages. Um, but I live for that. I mean, that's, that's my favorite when you, you, they really have to work for it. Um, what did you do or what were you thinking about as you were writing the story to build chemistry between these two characters, but also manage to keep them apart for so long? Like what was some of your strategies there?

Speaker 2 33:13

Well, I think plot wise, it, it just worked out naturally into kind of a slow burn earn structure for this story. Um, you know, because the plot has to do a lot with them, uh, budding heads at work and being forced to work together, you know, to me, it's, it made sense, especially with, you know, the sort of opposites attracting that that's going on between them, that it's gonna take a long time to get a level of trust where they're even like friendly, you know, or they're even like willing to admit that they're, that they have a, at least a friendship between them mm-hmm<affirmative>. Um, so, so that was important to me. And the other thing that I think is a, was, was kind of a driving force throughout the story. It was, you know, Simone is a professional cook. She's very, very good at what she does and she likes doing it. Um, it's, it's one of the few things she does. Like when we first meet her and Ray gives her this opportunity to sort of use her skills, um, to, to friends for, you know, mm-hmm,<affirmative>, uh, at the workplace for, for the first time in her life. And so she starts, you know, cooking and feeding Ray, uh, and, and others, but mostly Ray<laugh>. And, and I just think that I, you know, food is such a natural way to show this growing care and intimacy between two people and the way that they, you know, make sure that the other one has coffee or, you know, has something to eat for lunch is just that I think is just one of those tiny, small ways that, you know, we, the audience are like, oh, I see what's going on here. Mm-hmm<affirmative> but like, you know, in real life or the life of these characters, they're like, well, it's just coffee. It's just like a piece of cake. And it's like, it's not everybody, it's not<laugh> the cake means something<laugh><laugh> So, yeah, that was, I, I think, you know, and, and, and just in cooking in general and baking, you know, things take time to make something really good. You have to invest a long amount of time for, for, until it's ready. So I think that, you know, with the whole theme, the whole, uh, thematic, uh, thing that we have going on here, it, it just made sense for them to, you know, take forever to get it together.

Speaker 1 35:41

I love that you just used a cake baking analogy to describe this.

Speaker 2 35:45

I'm sorry. Was that too? Ay,<laugh> it. So on right now, it just, it felt, as I was saying it, it felt very James Lipton, it was giving me, you know, a tour and I don't, you know, I just, it, I I'm, I'm really sorry, but it's just how I thought<laugh> I

Speaker 1 36:04

Think, I think it's the perfect analogy for them. I think that food is their love language,

Speaker 2 36:10

For sure. For sure. And, you know, especially for Simone, who is very awkward and isn't at communicating how she feels to other people, um, you know, food is the way that she figures out. She can do that. And for Ray it's like taking care of people and, and, uh, being taken care of is just like, yeah. Second nature, as far as mm-hmm<affirmative>, um, you know, building relationships and building trust. So, yeah. Oh, we're getting into it. We're getting deep here.<laugh> yeah,

Speaker 1 36:40

I know. We try, we try. We're like really profound around here.<laugh>

Speaker 2 36:45

Yeah. This isn't surface stuff. This is the real stuff.<laugh> all right.

Speaker 1 36:50

Um, for you as the writer, was it difficult? Do you feel to keep them apart for so long? Like, did you ever jump ahead and like, but I'm just gonna go right as I'm kissing or did you like speak

Speaker 2 37:03

Oh, no. Oh my dear God. No,<laugh>, I, I probably left the love scenes. Um, I don't know if I should or should not pluralize I'll pluralize the, I, I, I left the scenes that were, you know, hot and steamy probably for the very last, not because I'm like squeamish or like, you know, a prude or anything, but just because like, I had spent so much time with these people, these characters, I was like, it almost felt rude, you know,<laugh> I was like, okay, you know, everything's going really well for you too. I'll just see myself out, I guess.<laugh> it just, yeah, there was, there was an element of, I just felt very awkward because they, they felt very, I felt very proprietary towards them, I guess like, oh, that is

Speaker 1 37:52

Funny. I wonder if other romance writers feel that way. I've always written only closed door romance.

Speaker 2 37:58

Oh, okay. Um,

Speaker 1 38:00

So I, I'm curious, I'm gonna have to ask some of my other writers who, you know, write the steamier stuff, how they feel

Speaker 2 38:08

<laugh>, I'm, I'm sure other people have a healthier way of dealing with this, but like I'm Catholic. So I dunno what to tell you. It's just it's um, yeah. It's especially like, you know, and I, I think I'm feeling a little bit less anxious about this now, but at the time when I was writing and thinking, you know, possibly I might show this to one or two people<laugh> mm-hmm<affirmative> um, I, I was just thinking, you know, this might be the first time a lot of these people have seen a non-binary person in a sexual context mm-hmm<affirmative> and that felt like, oh, I have a lot of responsibility there, but like, you know, I mean, we, we eat, we sleep, we do all the things that you normal people to. I guess, I, I feel a lot less, um, pressure, uh, about it now, but yeah, at, at the time it was a big mental hurdle that I, I really had to get over.

Speaker 1 39:07

Yeah. Now I can see that. Did you have any tricks for kind of helping yourself get over that?

Speaker 2 39:13

Uh, well, I, um, was no, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I can't drink and write,

Speaker 1 39:20

Go solution.

Speaker 2 39:22

If, if I try to drink and write things, just go off the rails. It's not worth it. It's not, it's not a good, it's not good. Um, so yeah, I, uh, I spent a lot of time talking, I think, to other friends of mine and like, you know, I'm not ashamed and I'm not, you know, a prude and I'm not this, or I'm not that. And they're like, dude, like maybe you are kinda a little bit like, maybe you should just like, think about that a little bit. So yeah, it was, it was a lot of, I think, um, leaning on my community. If I can use that phrase to tell me like, you know, no, one's gonna try and you with a stake for, you know, quote, unquote, getting, getting it wrong. Mm-hmm<affirmative> cause it's there's, there is no getting it wrong. Like it's, it's fine. It's fine. So as long as five six, or, you know, 10 people tell me, it's fine. I think I can, you know, encourage myself to do it.<laugh>

Speaker 1 40:15

Well, I'm no expert, but I think it's fine. I think you're fine.<laugh>

Speaker 2 40:19

Thanks. I'm gonna, you know what, I'm adding that to the tally<laugh>

Speaker 1 40:26

Um, okay. I'm gonna switch gears a little bit. Um, because I was scrolling through your Instagram in preparation for our chat today, and I came across a post, uh, that I'm assuming you did right around the new year where you posted your like five goals for 2022.

Speaker 2 40:44

Oh yeah. Um,

Speaker 1 40:45

<laugh> do you remember what they were?

Speaker 2 40:47

I remember I said I was gonna stay off Twitter more.

Speaker 1 40:52

How's that going?

Speaker 2 40:54

Um, you know, I installed this thing on my browser that, um, like it shuts Twitter down after I spend so many minutes a day on it. Mm-hmm<affirmative> so that's, that's been helpful, but you can just toggle that off. So it's not actually helpful

Speaker 1 41:08

At all.<laugh> I know my husband has one of those and I can't tell you how often I see him, like five more minutes. Five

Speaker 2 41:13

Minutes. Yeah. Yeah. You're just hitting the snooze button forever. So it's not, is it help? Is it helping? Probably not. Um, yeah. I, I, I, social media is just a terrible place.

Speaker 1 41:26

<laugh> I

Speaker 2 41:26

Just, I, I, I love seeing, you know, meeting new people and seeing funny things and pictures of cats and, you know, that's, that's maybe 12% of what I get out of social media. So yeah, I am trying really hard not to be on it all the time, but it's really difficult when, you know, your debuts approaching and stuff is happening and you wanna tell people about it and you also wanna see what other people are doing and, you know, that's, that part is raw, but, uh, I'm, I'm trying my best. I think I deserve some credit<laugh>

Speaker 1 41:58

That's fair. What else can you do? No, it is. I think a lot of us have kinda a love hate with social media. It's like, it brings some value and you know, you have to do it for your career, but a lot of us would kind of rather not like it's. Yeah. It's a tough balance to strike sometimes.

Speaker 2 42:17

Yeah. And you know, I, I think that as a person living in 2022, it's, it's a kind of a crapshoot when you open Twitter, like, am I gonna see a funny meme or am I gonna see like this thing? That's just gonna like ruin my day. Yeah. It's um, you know, it's, I, I, I'm trying my best to use it the way that I wanna use it, which is probably not how most people are gonna use it and that's fine. Um, so yeah, that's where I've arrived with social media, I think. Yeah.

Speaker 1 42:50

Yeah. Um, yeah, I pretty much gave up on Twitter a while ago. Like, I'll still send out a tweet if there's something I'm supposed to be promoting, but otherwise I just stick to Instagram. Twitter just makes me nauseous, honestly.<laugh>

Speaker 2 43:05

Yeah. I mean, I I'm, I'm kind, it's funny cuz I'm a little bit of the opposite. I, you know, I just started an Instagram like last year when I was trying to, uh, write the, this book and um, I, I don't, I'm just, I'm old. I don't know how Instagram works. I go on there. I'm shown things. I don't know why I'm being shown them. No,

Speaker 1 43:25

You've got lots of good content on there.

Speaker 2 43:27

No, thank you. Thank you. I that's all I do is I post and then I leave. I'm sure I should be doing other things and liking people's posts and supporting other and I'm really sorry. Other writers I'm trying my best. It's just, it's very confusing. I open it up and I immediately close it cause I dunno, what's happening and I get scared.<laugh>

Speaker 1 43:46

It's also time consuming. Like I'm not the best at, at, you know, liking other things or commenting on other things. And I like you I'm constantly feeling a, like I should be doing more, but it's uh, it's hard to try to balance all the things you're supposed to be doing.

Speaker 2 44:01

Yeah. Yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 44:03

I justify it by thinking, but wouldn't everyone prefer that I was writing another book anyway.

Speaker 2 44:08

Yes. What, what a great, yes. I'm going to try and keep that in mind. Like when I do, uh, you know, fail at social media basis, they'll just be like, you know, I, well, okay. That tweet flopped, but you know what, I'm also writing another book. So<laugh> I on the prize?<laugh>

Speaker 1 44:28

Um, okay, well back to your Instagram post. Um, so you, you posted these five goals. One of them was, uh, less social media. Um, so we've gone over that. Um, you also talked about, uh, wanting more writer, friends and completing more projects and uh, seeing your book in a store, which is coming up really soon.

Speaker 2 44:49

Oh yeah. That that's actually happening. I keep forgetting it's

Speaker 1 44:52

Happening. It's happening. It's so exciting. Yeah. Um, and then survival, just like basic survival was, was the fifth one. Um, and I just saw that and I thought that those are like some of the main pillars of everything that we talk about on this podcast. Oh. So Was like, we are, we are in tune. We are kindreds in what we're trying to accomplish.

Speaker 2 45:17

Well, I feel very, I feel very smart now<laugh> yeah. For having arrived at that then.

Speaker 1 45:22

Right. Um, so yeah, I just, I just thought that that was nice to see. Um, I don't even know where I'm going with the question. So I don't know. Do you have any input for someone who's maybe also debuting soon and feeling like they also would like to,

Speaker 2 45:41

Um,

Speaker 1 45:41

Survive<laugh>

Speaker 2 45:43

Yeah. Survival. I mean, what can I tell you? Um, just, I guess, keep talking to your friends and family who have nothing to do with writing keeps you humble for sure. Like<laugh> every, every, I, I, um, I talk to my mom and my brother. We have tea time over FaceTime. Ooh. Pretty much every afternoon we brew a cup of Camile tea and we sit down to gossip and um, every day, you know, if I have some update or some like little tid of publishing news to tell them, you know, I tell them all excitedly and then they say like, I don't know what that means. Like

Speaker 1 46:20

<laugh>,

Speaker 2 46:22

They're like, is that, is that a big, is that, is that good? And I'm like, yeah, it's good. And they're like, oh, OK, good, good for you. And then they just move on to what the neighbors doing, you know, it's, which is, which is what you need. You need to be out of your head. I think a lot of the time and out of all the minutia of trying to write a book and sell a book, and then what does the book do? Like, I, I definitely, um, would tell other debut authors, like don't, don't forget those relationships. Don't let those people fall by the wayside, cuz they're gonna keep your head on straight. Cuz I tell my mom like, oh, you know, so and so ordered this many copies. She doesn't know what that means.<laugh>

Speaker 1 47:04

Right.<laugh> she high numbers that a low number.

Speaker 2 47:08

She has no frame of reference. She's just like, that's great. No matter what that's

Speaker 1 47:13

And to be fair, neither do we, until I, our editor or agent tells us like, this is good. That's true.<laugh> that's true.

Speaker 2 47:19

I'm I'm here like, oh I'm I have so much publishing knowledge and back background, but in actuality I'm just like, Ooh, is that, is that good?<laugh> like just waiting for someone to confirm. Cause it sounds good. Is that good? Right. My

Speaker 1 47:34

Editor included a smiley emoji. I think it's a good sign.<laugh>

Speaker 2 47:39

Like I've, I've literally had, you know, email exchanges with my agent editor saying like, oh interesting. So like, is this,

Speaker 1 47:49

Can

Speaker 2 47:49

You just, can you just confirm to me the vibe that I'm getting, that this is a positive thing and they're like, yeah, DJ, this is positive. And I'm like, OK, just check in. Yeah.<laugh>

Speaker 1 48:00

Yeah. All the time. So true. Um, okay. Last question. Uh, just briefly before we go onto our bonus, um, I noticed, I did not know before today, but when I was looking at your bio, you and I are both represented under the Jill Greenberg lit management umbrella.

Speaker 2 48:19

Yay. Yes we are. Yes, we

Speaker 1 48:21

Are agency family<laugh>. Um, and as I mentioned, way, way way at the beginning of this podcast, right now we're having a, um, contest from people can win a query critique. So for you, if you can remember back to when you sent your query or when you were writing your query, like what, what's your number one piece of advice you would give to someone who is in that part of their journey?

Speaker 2 48:47

Oh, okay. This, I actually feel very cool qualified to answer for once. This is the first time it's ever happened, but like let's, let's stick with this feeling. Um, I think that I really rocked the querying process to be honest. I, I was, um, I got, you know, I obviously got some very good results. I got, um, uh, I signed with an amazing agent, Larissa mellow Kowski from the Jill Greenberg literary agency. And uh, one of the big reasons for that was that my query letter was really well researched and really well like strengthened. Um, the, the majority of the copy in my original query letter is the copy that you're going to see on the back of chef's kiss. Like almost word for word. Um, because I kind of had a sense coming from, again, a very brief publishing background that, um, one of the like most important things that you can do for your right in career is to just make things really easy for other people, like publishing is a really hard industry. Everyone is overworked, everyone is underpaid basically. Um, and a lot of editors especially do not have a ton of time to edit, you know, a lot of things. And when it comes to your query letter, like this is your chance to say to someone like, don't worry, I wrote the back copy for you ready that part's done. You just need to like put it into a book for me. And<laugh> um, so yeah, that, that's what I would say, like learn your genre inside and out, you know, read, um, widely within your genre and within sort of like sub genres. Like, you know, I read a ton of, uh, romances in ye um, when I is first, uh, getting ready to query because that's where all the trans and non-binary representation was basically mm-hmm<affirmative>. Um, so I, you know, felt that that was important. So, you know, it's gonna seem really daunting at first to invest all that time and researching and, and learning how to write a good query letter. But, you know, if you, you nail it, like I was lucky enough to do, um, then I think you're gonna see some pretty good results from that.

Speaker 1 51:15

Yeah. No excellent advice. I'd never really thought of it as, um, how it makes life just easier for the, the other people in the publishing sphere. Um, but similarly, my query lit also came almost word for word, the jacket, coffee

Speaker 2 51:31

Winners.

Speaker 1 51:32

No copy paste done.

Speaker 2 51:34

Yeah. Like, like that part of the job is already done, you know? Like, don't worry about that. Um, I, I took care of that because I I'm an author so I could write it for you.<laugh> basically, that

Speaker 1 51:48

Was sort of in my skillset.

Speaker 2 51:50

Yeah. Like I'm already here. Let me just handle it for you.<laugh>

Speaker 1 51:54

I love it.

Speaker 2 51:55

Yeah. It's a good strategy.

Speaker 1 51:57

Yeah. Okay. Are you ready for the bonus round?

Speaker 2 52:00

Yes, I am ready and I am an overachiever, so let's do it. Okay.

Speaker 1 52:07

<laugh> plotter or pan.

Speaker 2 52:11

Okay. Can I say, I don't know what Paning is. I've heard people throw this term around. I'm sorry. This is supposed to be like quick answers, right? No,

Speaker 1 52:19

Thank you for saying that. Cause it comes up all the time on this podcast and I forget that there might be people listening who are like, what are you talking about? Um,

Speaker 2 52:27

I mean, I, I assume, I assume in context it means you're kind of like a gardener type writer. You just sort of go with the flow and see what happens. Yeah,

Speaker 1 52:35

Yeah. Yeah. The term is like you write by the seat of your pants, you pants. Oh,

Speaker 2 52:41

I thought it was an acronym for something<laugh> OK.

Speaker 1 52:45

Well

Speaker 2 52:45

I'm learning things. This is great. Um, okay. I, I would say I am 85% a plotter and the re the rest happens naturally and organically, but yeah, mostly a plotter for sure.

Speaker 1 52:59

Cake or pie.

Speaker 2 53:03

Oh, this is evil. Um, cake cake,

Speaker 1 53:10

If are in charge of making cooking videos, would you be on screen or behind the camera

Speaker 2 53:16

Behind, behind, behind, behind, behind

Speaker 1 53:19

What is a weird childhood food that you still secretly like?

Speaker 2 53:25

Ooh. Hmm. VEA

Speaker 1 53:29

<laugh> gro

Speaker 2 53:31

I'm sorry. I mean, it's just,

Speaker 1 53:33

I know people love it. People love

Speaker 2 53:35

It. It's beautiful. It's, it's a, it's a Fe of science and engineering and I don't think we should take our eyes off of it because you just don't know. You just don't know what will happen.<laugh>

Speaker 1 53:49

Um, how do you celebrate an accomplishment?

Speaker 2 53:54

Ooh. Um, well I used to celebrate by, uh, telling myself that we can do better next time.<laugh> but now, now these days, uh, I'm much nicer to myself and I celebrate with a big old bubble bath and a glass of Perseco. Oh,

Speaker 1 54:11

Nice. And I like that, that answer like shows that you have had your own character arc.

Speaker 2 54:17

I have had quite an arc. Actually. You noticing

Speaker 1 54:21

<laugh>. Do you have any writing rituals?

Speaker 2 54:27

Yes. I have a good smelling candle on my desk. Always. That needs to be lit before I start, if it isn't lit and I look over and I see that I've forgotten to light it. I go, oh, well, that's why it's not working. No<laugh> So smelling candle, two cups of tea. Uh, turn off Twitter. That's that's my writing, um, routine.

Speaker 1 54:52

What book makes you happy?

Speaker 2 54:57

Ooh. Any PG Woodhouse novel makes me happy.

Speaker 1 55:02

What are you working on next?

Speaker 2 55:06

I am working on book two. Um, um, I don't know how much I'm allowed to say about book two. I should probably ask for clarification on that at some point. Uh, but I think I can say that it is another foodie love loving romcom. Um, that will delight the senses.<laugh> yeah.

Speaker 1 55:27

Perfect.

Speaker 2 55:28

Okay.

Speaker 1 55:30

Lastly, where can people find you?

Speaker 2 55:33

Uh, they can find me on Twitter and Instagram at TJ Alexander NYC. Uh, my website is TJ alexander.com and that's it. I'm not on TikTok or any of that. So, sorry. Those are the only chances that you have to see me.

Speaker 1 55:50

I also am avoiding TikTok. It's like, people are like, but you should totally join. That's where the people are and I'm like, you can't make me

Speaker 2 55:58

<laugh>. Yeah. I've had many friends tell me, like you, you might be good on TikTok and I'm like, I might, um, hate it a lot actually. So, uh, I'm just gonna, yeah, I'll leave that to the, to the, the youngins, I guess.

Speaker 1 56:13

Yeah,<laugh> awesome. TJ, thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 2 56:18

Oh, thank you so much for having me. This was a ton of fun

Speaker 1 56:21

Readers. Be sure to check out chef's kiss. It comes out on May 3rd and is currently available for pre-order. Of course, we encourage you to support your local independent bookstore. If you can, if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store at bookshop.org/shop/marisa Meyer. Next week, I'll be chatting with Lindsey ger about her upcoming middle, the patron thief of bread. If you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe and follow us on Instagram at Marisa Meyer author and at happy writer podcast until next time stay healthy, stay cozy and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.