Contemporary Royalty and Romance with Julian Winters - Prince of the Palisades

Marissa chats with Julian Winters about his latest YA romance, PRINCE OF THE PALISADES. Also discussed in this episode: how fanfiction is a great way to get started in writing, the sometimes difficult elements of crafting a contemporary royal story, writing romance and the importance of creating moments when characters are vulnerable, how challenging it can be bringing conflict to a contemporary story, creating relatable and lovable secondary characters—including badass female characters, and so much more!

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Transcript

[00:10] Marissa: Hello and welcome to the Happy writer. This is the podcast that aims to bring readers more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you so much for joining me. One thing making me so happy this week, my favorite beloved pool floaty. Stick with me here. It felt like such a silly splurge item because you can go to, I don't know, Walmart or big lots or whatever and get a pool float for dollar ten. They are not an expensive item. But I had this vision and I really wanted a pool floaty that acted as a chair so you could sit up and I could read in the pool while floating around. And I ended up getting it's called the big Joe Roma adult pool float and lounger. I got it on Wayfair and I don't know, maybe it was like $85, I think, and it was worth every penny. It is so comfortable and it's filled with like, I don't know what it's filled with. Like these beans or beads. It kind of feels like a beanbag a little bit. Beanbag chair. So it's not filled with air like a typical pool floaty in theory. I'm optimistic that that means it will last multiple summers and not just like pop the first time my kids decide to use it as a water slide. Fingers crossed. And I love it. I love it so much. It is my absolute new favorite thing. And I have to say, reading today's summer romance that we are going to be talking about in this episode was even better. Reading it in my new pool floaty floating around, I felt like royalty. So if you happen to be in the market for a pool floaty, I cannot recommend it enough. I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. He is the best selling and award winning author of numerous contemporary young adult novels, including running with lions, how to be, Remy Cameron, the Summer of everything right where I left you and as you walk on by. His newest novel, Prince of the Palisades comes out next week on August 20. Please welcome Julian Winters.

[02:30] Julian: Hello.

[02:31] Marissa: Hello, Julian. How are you?

[02:34] Julian: I am wonderful. I am also smiling so hard listening to the story about this pool floaty because I'm just picturing like an upgraded Elle woods from legally blonde situation. I just love it.

[02:47] Marissa: Yes, that's exactly what you should be picturing. It really is great. And it even has like a cup holder. Like I had, like my wine with me. It was. I was in such a happy place reading this book. I just can't even describe how luxurious it felt.

[03:05] Julian: Totally. What I'm seeing right now, it's the best.

[03:09] Marissa: Well, I am so excited to have you. Before we get into talking about your new book, the first thing I like to hear from all of my guests is your origin story. What are the trials and tribulations of your life that brought you to being a published author?

[03:30] Julian: Oh, gosh, that feels like such a freaky question to answer.

[03:37] Marissa: I think it depends on exactly what the origin story is.

[03:41] Julian: How deep do we go here? Yeah. So I actually, when I was younger, I had no intentions at all of becoming an author. I was obsessed with this little show called Baywatch, and I thought I was going to be a professional lifeguard. It was a dream. It was a goal. It was a foolish thing. In school, I was such a great student. Any assignment given to me, I did it. I turned everything in on time. I read every book given to me. But it was so hard for me to enjoy reading because I could not find characters that I could relate to. There weren't a lot of stories about people who identified or who looked like me in books. And if they were, they usually had a very tragic storyline that did not end positively. So I actually became a very reluctant reader. If I wasn't reading it in school, I wasn't reading at all. Until one day I stumbled on this thing called fan fiction. I don't know if anyone's ever heard of that.

[04:50] Marissa: You might have heard it come up a time or two on this podcast, maybe.

[04:56] Julian: I dove headfirst into this thing where I. I could take characters that I love and give them the storyline I wanted, but I could also write myself into these stories and give myself a happy ending that a lot of the books that I read in school did not give me. They didn't give me hope. They didn't give me. They didn't make me want to fall in love and have happy things happen, because I just knew it was going to end tragically, but with fanfiction. It was like this ultimate playground where I got to create those things for myself that I was lacking. So I did that for a very long time. And the wonderful thing about the fanfic world is there are always authors in that space, and there was a published author who messaged me and said, hey, I love your stories. You should really think about writing an original work. And I was like, I don't think that's something I could do. I don't. I don't see a lot of authors who look like me, who identify like me on shelves and whatnot. And this was, you know, the early, like, 2010 20 1415, and I finally sat down and said, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna. Gonna write the story, the book that I wish I would have had as a teen, a black teen, a queer teen growing up in the south that I would have loved to have picked up and felt like, hey, I get these things and I deserve to have these kind of storylines. I deserve to feel like I get happiness and I get love and I get support. And so that's how I ended up starting writing run of lions and kind of just rolled from there.

[06:27] Marissa: I relate to that so much. I also come from a fan fiction background, and I also have, like, a really clear memory of that one day when someone emailed me and was like, you have talent. You should try writing a novel. And it was like this light bulb, like, whoa, I could actually do that, right?

[06:50] Julian: I don't have to just, like, post these things for free on, like, fanfiction. And then I can actually, like, take this and become something. This is wild.

[06:58] Marissa: I know. It is wild. No. And then it just becomes a fantasy that you can't let go of. Like, as soon as you have that vision of your name on a book cover, I think it's just like, well, now I just have to, like, try, spend the rest of my life trying.

[07:10] Julian: To make that happen exactly how I felt.

[07:15] Marissa: Are you comfortable telling us what you wrote fanfic for?

[07:20] Julian: Yeah. So I started way back. I'm not gonna, you know, it's really gonna date me. But I actually started when I was super young writing Thundercats fanfiction. Before I even realized it was fan fiction, I was writing it old school. This is not in the way I wanted it to. I am changing this. And then from there, I drifted through a lot of different fandoms. Like, I am so spread out. I done soap opera fandoms. I've done comic book fandoms. I have done anime fandoms. I was probably most notorious, in a good way, in a boy band fandom.

[07:58] Marissa: No way.

[07:59] Julian: Yeah.

[08:00] Marissa: Okay, which boy band?

[08:02] Julian: All right. It was, it was one direction.

[08:05] Marissa: Oh, my gosh, I love that.

[08:08] Julian: Yeah, yeah, I was, yeah, that's awesome. It was the direction.

[08:12] Marissa: That's, that's. I love it. I was very much into sailor Moon. Like, that was my jam, and I wrote it for, like, ten years. Didn't really venture too far outside of the sailor moon fandom. But it's funny. I mean, talking to authors, it is not an uncommon thing to hear that we started in fanfiction. I mean, it's, it's so common, it's so prevalent. And I know that, like, in some circles, there's still a stigma against it. But I've just talked to way too many people who have had such a great experience that were so inspired and who can trace their love and passion for writing and storytelling back to fanfic because there's not the pressures involved with just going straight into trying to get published. I think it's such a good thing, 100%.

[08:58] Julian: I also think it's such a great way to build your writing muscle because you, I don't want to say you have to trick, but you have to convince these readers that these characters that they love so passionately that you can make them love them even more by twisting how they see it. And I think it's such a great tool for any writers out there to write. Fantastic, because it really challenges you from a character standpoint to make people fall in love even more. Something that they've already established. Like, this is it. Don't change anything about it. This is my fandom. And, you know, I just think it's a great thing.

[09:38] Marissa: Yeah, no, I completely agree with that. I also think that it takes away some of the intimidation. Like, if you're, you want to be a writer, you're, you're creative, you have ideas for stories, but to just jump into writing an original work, which, of course, plenty of people do, it can be done, of course, but for so many people, that's scary. It's scary to think, oh, I have to create a the world. I have to create the characters. I have to create the plot, all of it. At least with fan fiction, you're given a little bit of stuff to work with. You're not just, like, jumping in, having absolutely no idea where and how to create all of this stuff from scratch.

[10:17] Julian: Exactly. Exactly how I feel. And that's how I felt when I was going to write runner of lines. I was like, wait, wait, now I have to create these things that were already there. No, no, no, no. Did not sign up for that.

[10:30] Marissa: Yeah. No. It's like, it's like, it becomes like little stepping stones. I don't know about you, but for me, like, when I started fanfic, they were really, really short stories. Like, just a couple of pages and then would get a little bit longer as I got a little bit more comfortable, a little bit more confident in my skills, and then a little bit longer and a little bit longer. And by the end of it, like, I was writing multi book series in fanfiction. But it's like, I couldn't have just started there. Like, there's a progression that had to happen.

[10:57] Julian: No, that's totally. That's the exact same thing for me. I think I remember from my earliest kind of experience it was always like a good, like a 5000 word short story. And then, like you said, by the time I stopped writing Benvic, it was like, oh, I guess I'm writing, you know, multiple chapters now and whatnot. So. Yeah, it is also, like you said, a really great way to help you get started instead of just jumping headfirst into the deep end.

[11:21] Marissa: Yeah. All right, well, I love that. I love that origin story, obviously. Oh, and I did want to just, like, comment that there is a one line reference to sailor Moon in this book that is coming out in a couple weeks. And so, of course, the mooney inside me got really giddy about that. So thank you.

[11:40] Julian: I was 100% a sailor moon fan. I remember running from the bus stop home because it would air around like, 03:00 in the afternoon, and I would get off that bus and I would run, do not talk to me. Do not stop me. So I would not miss it. I, yeah, watch every series.

[11:59] Marissa: I adore that. For me, I remember it being on the afternoons, but there was also a period when it would air in the mornings before school. And so I would, like, get up extra early so that I could watch it before school.

[12:11] Julian: Yeah, same, same. Or I was back in the VCR day, I was recording it on VHS. Yeah, I remember that.

[12:19] Marissa: Oh, my gosh. The new generation. They don't understand this at all. All right, so here we are now. Your. Oh, my gosh. I didn't actually count. Is it your 6th book coming out?

[12:31] Julian: It's my 6th book. I can't believe it.

[12:34] Marissa: Your 6th book is coming out in a couple of weeks, actually. As of when this airs, it will be one week away. Will you tell listeners a little bit about Prince of the Palisades?

[12:46] Julian: Yeah, of course. Prince of the Palisades is Netflix's young royals meets a Ya version of red, white and royal blue, where a prince of a foreign country is notorious in the headlines for doing all the wrong things. Finally gets him in really deep water when, while on a trip to LA, he is caught on video drunkenly bad mouthing his country's prime minister. And to teach him a lesson, his parents decide to exile him to LA until he cleans up his image and determined to finally get back home and get back to the life that he loves. He works hard to clean up his image and ends up falling for a pink haired, film obsessed boy at his new private school. And it creates a whole new journey for him into not only trying to be the prince that his parents and country would be proud of, but actually becoming the prince that he himself would be proud of.

[13:47] Marissa: I do. I love that you set up this character who, for him, like, being exiled to LA is, like, such a big deal. He's like, why am I being punished? Whereas most people would be like, that doesn't sound so awful.

[14:01] Julian: Yes.

[14:04] Marissa: And, like, go to the beach and, like, I just thought that was adorable.

[14:09] Julian: Yeah, yeah. I was like, if I'm gonna set it here, I have to actually, like, make him not want to be here. And so I had to make it seem like his own country was, you know, a lot more comforting for him than being in LA of all places.

[14:23] Marissa: La of all places. So the first thing I really want to ask is, what do you feel are maybe some of the challenges of writing a contemporary royal romance as opposed to, like, a historical romance or a fantasy romance? I feel like setting royalty in a contemporary world would come with its own unique challenges that you need to face.

[14:48] Julian: Yeah, it was. So after I submitted the idea to my editor and she's like, yes, let's do it. I was like, oh, no, we didn't think this through because versus, we know with fantasy, I feel as though you get to. You kind of get to create your own rules. Yes. The world is going to have some kind of basis from what we've actually experienced throughout history or in reality, but you kind of get to create your own rules. Historical. We already know what has happened, so you get to kind of play around in that area of writing it. But with contemporary, I had to really think about, oh, wait, how is this going to look? Especially because not only is he a queer royal, but he is a black royal. So how do I make this look where he recognizes things like privilege and, you know, the history behind monarchies and whatnot, but also show how this could be a positive thing and how it can be an empowering thing? And it was such a challenge because I was like, there's so many things I have to think about in terms of placing a royal in a contemporary setting and how our world is continuously changing and the things that we might find important today may not be the things that, you know, are things we think about later on.

[16:05] Marissa: What was it like creating your own country again?

[16:11] Julian: Big mistake. It sounded so much fun. I honestly, I was like, well, he's a black royal, so I have to think about, okay, well, where would I set him as? Where would the monarchy be? And I was like, well, I don't want to take from things that are already set in stone. I kind of want to create my own thing. And then the challenges became, okay, how do you want to make this stand out from other monarchies and other countries and whatnot? But also, how do I honor and pay homage to the things throughout history that have shaped, you know, my community and my culture? And so I thought, okay, well, I put all these things together, and it actually came together really beautifully once I let myself just try to be respectful but also have fun.

[17:03] Marissa: Yeah. I'd wondered if, being a contemporary author, if that would be, like, a scary challenge or if you'd be like, oh, I get to create a brand new world. This is fun all of a sudden.

[17:16] Julian: No, it was. I will fully admit it was scary and a lot of sleepless nights over how to do this properly.

[17:24] Marissa: Oh, well, you did such a good job. It feels like a real place. I mean, it feels like I am ready to get on an airplane and go there right now. It sounds beautiful. I really love that you were able to fit so nicely into the real world. You've drawn inspiration from real world history, real world politics. You know, it's. The language is, like, largely, largely a french speaking country. And you have, like, reasons for this for. I don't know what I'm making the assumption it's your first time doing, like, creating world building on this level. I could be wrong about that, but it felt expertly done.

[18:02] Julian: You are not wrong at all. This is my first time doing something of this nature, and I. I do need to credit the wonderful Danielle Clayton, because as I was trying to put this together, I actually went to a book launch she had here in Atlanta for the marvelers, and she kind of talked about how she built her world for that. And it was so like, it unlocks so many different things for me. I was like, oh, this is such a great way to go about it. So I do have to thank her for speaking on how she world.

[18:39] Marissa: I love that. That's one of my favorite things of talking to writers, how sometimes, I mean, it's like the universe knows sometimes what it is you need to hear. Like, I'm stuck on this book. I'm having trouble with this element of world building, setting, plot, whatever. And then the universe is like, here, go to this book event or, here, speak with this author or read this book and suddenly magically things start to fit into place again, 100%.

[19:06] Julian: It happens every time for me.

[19:08] Marissa: What was your process with the world building? Like, did you take a real country and then expand from there? Or were you, like, did you start with a pinterest inspiration board? Or, like, what were some of the first steps that you took?

[19:24] Julian: I did a lot of reading. I knew I wanted to. A lot of my inspiration came from watching, like, black Panther and seeing how, you know, they. They build out what, Wakanda and whatnot. So I was like, oh, I'd love to do something like that, but maybe make it in an island nation. And then I did a lot of reading and research, and it is partially based off of an actual place off the coast of Africa called Pabo Verde. And I kind of looked at. I did a lot of reading about them and how. What shaped them in their history there, and then took my own spin with spin on it. But, yeah, that's where a lot of the inspiration for the. Started for it.

[20:06] Marissa: I love it.

[20:07] Julian: All right.

[20:07] Marissa: And so then from this beautiful Ile de reverie, or however we pronounce that.

[20:14] Julian: I think you nailed it.

[20:15] Marissa: Did I nail it? Did I do okay?

[20:17] Julian: Yes, you did.

[20:19] Marissa: We have this prince. Prince Jaden. I want to talk a little bit about writing character arc, because you kind of touched on it early on when you were giving the pitch summary for the book. But we have this character who, at the start, he just wants to please his father. Of course, his father is the king, and he's trying to figure out, how do I become the prince that he expects me to be. But then over the course of the story, we see him coming to very different realizations and growing as a person, growing as a princess, and it was very wonderfully crafted. So, for you, what is kind of your process when you're thinking about developing that character arc?

[21:08] Julian: I think, first and foremost, I think about who my character is at the beginning and who I hope that they become by the end of the story. That's a huge thing for me, because I think I feel like seeing the journey is wonderful, but understanding where someone comes from and where they're at now are two very powerful things. So that's the first thing that I thought about, and then I had to really think about, okay, why is he, you know, feeling this shift? What things are going to alter, who he becomes, and then what's going to start to make him think about who he wants to become? Those are some of the things that I start with, and then the rest kind of just weaves itself together.

[21:51] Marissa: Along the way, you know, sometimes we talk about, like, if a writer tends to be more plot driven or more character driven, where would you say you fall on that spectrum?

[22:02] Julian: The beginning of every book. I am 100% character driven. You can see it through all of my drafts. It's like, my gosh, yes, we spent a lot of time with this character, but what was it? Just vibes all the time. Where was the plot?

[22:15] Marissa: What's happening in this story?

[22:18] Julian: I'm just saying, sometimes you just want to spend, I don't know, 80,000 words in somebody's head. But then as more drafts come along, I definitely become, okay, I know who the character is now, what is the actual plot? What is the story that we're telling here? And so that's what happens for me. It's always character driven first, and then by the end, I'm full on in the plot.

[22:40] Marissa: Yeah. So I'm quite curious. So you talked about how, like, with Jaden, you knew where he was going to start. You had an idea for where you hoped he would end up at the end of this journey. Have you ever experienced where, like, you have this thought for how the character is going to progress? But then as they're working their way through the story, do you find things changing? And if so, how do you deal with that?

[23:04] Julian: Oh, yeah, 100%. With Jaiden in the beginning, I don't think there was as much emphasis for me on the part of his storyline where he starts to finally fight back and stand up and say, wait a minute, this is not something we should accept and, you know, should let continue to happen. For me, in the beginning, it was more of Jaden's, this very troubled prince. And by the end, I just hope that he understands that the troubles that he's having, more reflection of the environment that he's continued to let himself be a part of. And that changed so much as other. I was like, well, wait a minute. Actually, the environment that Jaden has grown up in has played some part in how he has not become the prince that he wants to be. I mean, I need to kind of, you know, recognize, and I need to kind of acknowledge that because I do think that's a very important part of everyone's journey, is not only are the people that we surround ourselves with, but affect how we are, but also their beliefs and the things that they are so passionate about kind of start to influence the way you act and the way that you react to things. So I really, by the end, starters say, oh, gosh, no, I need to go back, because this is actually a really important thing to talk about.

[24:25] Marissa: No, I love that. And I think that that's really interesting that that kind of rose to the surface as you were working through the book, because by the finished product, the final book, it comes through so clearly. And I really loved how, like, the larger theme of the story, you know, you talk a lot about speaking your opinion about standing up for what you believe in and not staying neutral. And I thought it was so clever how we get to see that coming through in Jaden's character and his growth, but also in his country. And it's a very nice kind of counterpoint there.

[25:08] Julian: Yeah, yeah, it was. Other thing I wanted to acknowledge is, because you see it so much, especially in the news now, how vocal the younger generation is, how they no longer just tolerate things and let things go. And I wanted to show a positive spin on that in a book where it's like, now the older generation is inspired by the fact that Jayden is speaking up and then Jaden is fighting back against things and he doesn't want to continue. Let the status quo just be. Yeah, I really wanted to, you know, pay respect to, you know, what I see the younger generation doing and say, hey, I see you and I acknowledge it, and I hope that other adults in your life do the same that the adults in Jayden's life do.

[25:52] Marissa: Yeah. 

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Marissa: of course, though, at its heart, this book is a romance I adore. I love. One of my favorite tropes of all time is like the popular one, the, you know, one is the, the jock or the prince or the celebrity or whatever, and they just fall head over heels for the nerd. It is my favorite thing. So talk to me a little bit about creating Rhys, our love interest, as a character. And specifically, what were you thinking as you were developing him in relation to the romance and making sure that he was a good foil, or however you think of it, a good match for Jaden?

[29:15] Julian: Yeah, I think he is a great foil and a great match for Jaden. What I love about that trope is the nerdy character always allows that popular jocker, royal or celebrity be vulnerable. They allow them to let their guard down, to not care about the world, what the world thinks, because that other person doesn't care what the world thinks. And that's one of the main things I wanted about Rhys is he's not into gossip. He's not into the whole celebrity thing. He doesn't really care for any of the things that people have or haven't said about Jayden because he doesn't read any of it. He just wants to know Jaden as a person, not as a prince, not as, you know, second in line to the throne. And that was one of the main things I wanted to focus on. But I also wanted Rhys to be relatable character in that he cares deeply for his family. His family is very tight knit versus Jaden situation where they have been tight knit in the past, but their roles in their, in the country have kind of splintered them a bit. I also wanted Rhys to be this lovable, you know, film obsessed person, because I just remember as a teen, I worked at Hollywood video, and so I became obsessed with movies, and it's just my thing. And I was like, oh, it'd be really cool to have a character that is so. That has his own thing separately. You know, Jaden, this royal, or Jaden, this guy I'm interested in, and he has this really, really passion for filmmaking. It was a lot of fun to do. It was really cool.

[30:47] Marissa: Yeah, no, they're so sweet together. And I like that you point out that because of Rhys and his character and who he is as a person, you get to be more vulnerable, or Jaden gets to be more vulnerable. And for me, like, this far into my career, having written lots and lots of romances, for me, that's always one of the number one things that I find myself coming back to again and again, is when these characters are falling in love, is there a moment that they're vulnerable with each other? Because I feel like those moments are so powerful. They're such a great way to show the reader who this character is when all of their defenses are down. Is that something that you also, like, think about top level, or is it something that just kind of tends to come up is as you're figuring out the romance?

[31:39] Julian: No, I think that's definitely something I think about top level. But as I continue to develop that romance, it digs a little bit deeper for me, because, like you said, it is a chance for them to be vulnerable. It's a chance for them to remove that mask and be who they are. But I also think it's such a scary thing that readers can just relate to that I know I can relate to. So it's an important thing to me. I feel like the deepest crushes I've had on people or the, you know, the best, you know, falling in love stories I've seen is when you have those moments where you're just like, you are so human and you are so like me. And I feel like this is me sharing this moment with you.

[32:22] Marissa: I love that. No, that's. That's a great, great way to describe that. I was recently at a writing retreat talking with some of the other authors, and most, I'm trying to think, is everybody mostly fantasy writers and one. And one person? Our group is working on a contemporary. And so then we got in this whole conversation about, like, why does it sometimes feel like when you're writing contemporary, it's so much harder to bring in conflict? Like, it's not like fantasy, where you can just have, like, magic and war and, like, vampires and whatever. With contemporary, it's all just a little bit quieter. But, of course, you still need to have conflict driving the story forward for you. How do you go about bringing more conflict and making sure that there's enough obstacles for your characters to tackle?

[33:14] Julian: Oh, gosh. This is, first of all, that conversation is 100% relatable. It is so real because I do find such a hard time bringing conflict into my contemporary story.

[33:28] Marissa: Yeah, it's a very real thing. We all struggle with this.

[33:33] Julian: I just. It's baffling because we're writing about real, you know, real world things, and there's conflict all the time in, you know, real world situations where you're just like, I don't know how to weave this into this story. So, for me, I've gotten better over the years, but I still need the occasional nudge from my editor, like, hey, let's up this. Let's make this a little more tense. But I always kind of go in trying not to think of, like, what's the worst thing that could happen? Because for me, as a writer, sometimes that turns into things that just feel so unbelievable, so unreal that it kind of takes you out of the story. So I just. I try to think about, what are these things that I know I've faith continuously or thought about while observing other people, and how do I weave that kind of conflict into the story? And then I just continuously try to heighten it. Okay. It's not enough that, you know, you've just been exiled to LA. Let's go ahead and let's add in the fact that you cannot come back until you do these things. And then let's add another layer in that you hate having to do these things because you're butting heads with all the new people after school. Let's add another layer and bring it in. You know, not to spoil anything, but somebody from Jaden's past does come to America, and that just adds another layer of conflict, not only in his romance, but also in his, you know, plans to get back home. So, yeah, I just. I try to find a small, little thing and continuously heighten it the further I go along until it reaches that. Okay, we're about to go absurd. We're about to jump the shark moment.

[35:15] Marissa: I love that because I am definitely the sort of writer that does ask, okay, what is the worst thing that could happen next? As you were talking, I was like, huh? Yeah. Now, if I was writing this book, he would not be in LA. He would have gotten shipped off to the Arctic and it would be a very different story.

[35:33] Julian: Well, it actually might be pretty kind of fun. That would actually be really fun.

[35:39] Marissa: Love in the arctic.

[35:42] Julian: All right.

[35:43] Marissa: You mentioned Reese's family earlier, and I wanted to circle back to that because, I mean, first of all, there's a lot of wonderful secondary characters in this book, but for me, the highlights were Reese's family, his parents, his sibling. They are so sweet, and it was funny because they're so normal. And so his parents have these great senses of humor, and they curse. At one point, I can't remember, but the dad or somebody curses, and then the mom is like, we can't feed potato salad to royalty. And. But it was like. It was so like me and my husband, and I was like, this is the conversation we would be having if there was a royalty. And I had this weird moment where I started to realize, like, oh, I am the same age as my character's parents all of a sudden.

[36:44] Julian: Yeah.

[36:45] Marissa: Anyways, I loved it. I absolutely loved them. Were they inspired by anyone or. What is your kind of method for making sure that your minor characters are just as lovable and relatable as your main characters?

[37:02] Julian: I think definitely the adults, like Rhys parents are inspired by adults that I've kind of met throughout life who are wholly different from my parents. And I just remember, you know, having to turn my head in certain situations, so I was not laughing in my friends faces at, like, the absurdity of what was happening. And so that kind of inspiration comes from that. Secondary characters, for me, is it's a lot of fun. I have so much fun writing secondary characters, but it's also a chance for me to kind of put myself into situations I often don't do it with, like, my main character and, like, their love interests or, like, a secondary characters. It's my chance to react to what's actually happening, and that's what. That's when it tends to be the most fun or the most humorous. Cause it's like, I'm sorry, what? You just brought the prince of a country into our house, and all I have to serve them is sloppy Joe. Like, stuff like that is how I would react to certain situations. So it's a lot of fun.

[38:04] Marissa: Yeah, no, they were really fun. Another beloved character of mine is the. I can't think of her name now. The bodyguard.

[38:13] Julian: Oh. Oh. Oh, gosh. Why am I blanking? Ajani. Ajani. Why?

[38:21] Marissa: This is good for listeners to hear. Like, sometimes we do actually forget our character's name. What do you do?

[38:27] Julian: Cause we're always working on the next thing. So you're like, wait a minute. I gotta.

[38:30] Marissa: I wrote a year ago. I can't be expected to remember all these details. Anyway, I'm sure it'll come to you. She was fabulous, and I love that you have given us a bodyguard. That one is female, like, right there. We're throwing off some stereotypes, and she is just so badass, but has so much personality. And I just thought she was fantastic.

[38:57] Julian: Yes. Johnny is Jaiden's bodyguard. And she. She. I honestly, at some points, had to pull back because I was like, okay, you're giving. You're giving her so much dialogue. You're giving. This is what she's almost taking over the story. But it was a lot, a lot of fun writing her. I think she was one of the characters besides Jaden's sister, where I sat there for so many chapters. So I was like, I really need to find another way to put her into this because not only does she mean a lot to Jaden and his journey, but also this character is just so cool and so amazing. I want people to really, you know, dig in and love this person. And. Yeah, and she was a lot of who she is. A second year character was inspired by T'Challa's Dora Malajayi Okoye from Black Panther, who I absolutely love everything that she's in. And I really wanted to lean into that, where you have this really badass female bodyguard who will do anything to protect their charge, but also will, you know, be quick to call out the prince and say, you know, that was just a really silly thing you just did. I can't believe you.

[40:08] Marissa: Yeah, no. And you get the vibe from her that, like, even though this is a job, you can tell that she is so emotionally protective of her prince. Like, it was just a really great relationship.

[40:20] Julian: Yeah. It was so fun to write. And there's a moment towards the end of the book between them that didn't come until later drafts, but when I wrote it, I was like, this really, you know, full circle connects who they are to each other.

[40:36] Marissa: I love that sometimes the things that don't come in until, like, you're almost done with the book, and then suddenly you're like, wait, this was the missing piece.

[40:45] Julian: Yes. Yes.

[40:46] Marissa: Yeah, yeah. I love that. Okay, I've got one more question about the book before we move on to our bonus round, because at the start of every chapter, we get a fun little social media, pop culture, very short little article, kind of a gossip rag. Sort of like, here is the thing that Jaiden's doing now that we're all talking about. I thought was just a really fun little detail and such a great way to keep at the surface of our minds the fact that he is a prince and he is in the public eye and he is being watched and criticized and judged by the media all the time. So I just thought it was a really great way, I guess, kind of coming back to the idea of conflict. Like, how do you bring in conflict? I thought that that was a great way of, like, reminding the readers constantly what it is he's dealing with on this larger scale. Did you love writing those? Were those, like, it was a ton of fun, or did you get to a point where you were like, ugh, why did I decide to do this together?

[41:53] Julian: In the beginning, it was a ton of fun to do. Like, coming up with all the different things, especially getting to, like, there's some that look at other monarchs and other royalty across the world, fictionalized royalty across the world. Those were a lot of fun to, like, oh, and over here, you know, prince so and so is doing this, and princess so and so was caught doing this kind of thing. So those were a lot of fun. It was also a lot of fun to do them because they helped me to kind of give back story to Jaden and several of the other characters without having to, like, info dump in a chapter or whatnot. It was just quick little snippet. But you learned something more about a character through that snippet. But, yes, it did. After around, like, chapter, I think it was 17, I was sitting in a coffee shop writing. I was like, I do not know what this headline is going to be. And I remember turning it into my editor with, like, you know, in brackets, articles to come. I just, it's so hard to do it for so many chapters.

[42:59] Marissa: Oh, I can imagine. I can imagine that you would get to a point where you're like, I don't know, gossip, gossip, blah, blah, blah.

[43:08] Julian: He was wearing this today. Next.

[43:10] Marissa: Yes. There you go. Well, I thought, I thought it was a fun detail. And I love that you point out that it also kind of helps with the info dumping issue, which is a constant issue for all of us. Um, yeah, that's a, that's a really smart strategy. Like, how can you, like, fit all of this information into a really concise little bubble and then move on with the story?

[43:32] Julian: Yeah, I think. I think in those, what I've learned as a reader is some of my favorite books are when a writer can give me so much in just one to two sentences, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, now I get it. You've unlocked something about this character. I understand their motives now, and I love that. So it was fun being able to do that with these interstitials at the beginning of each chapter.

[43:55] Marissa: Yeah. Oh, interstitial. Good word. That was a vocabulary there.

[44:00] Julian: It's my favorite.

[44:03] Marissa: All right. Are you ready for the bonus round?

[44:05] Julian: I am ready.

[44:08] Marissa: It's really not scary. What book makes you happy?

[44:13] Julian: That is so rose, you have to understand, I'm someone who takes 30 minutes to decide what he's going to eat for dinner because I'm like, I could have this, but I also love this and I want this. But if I had to choose at this moment, a book that always makes me happy is called kings of be more by R. Eric Thomas. It is a hilarious Ferris Bueller stay off esque ya novel that does so many wonderful things. It is a platonic kind of love story about two friends spending their last day together. For me, the biggest part was it was one of the first novels I picked up as an adult and got to see two queer black male protagonists have nothing but joy and, you know, love for each other. And that, that was such an important thing for me to see. And it always just makes me happy knowing that there are younger readers who are going to pick this up. Instead of a book where it just shows, you know, pain and trauma, they get this and get to see how beautiful it is in those moments that you spend with your best friend.

[45:23] Marissa: I love that. What are you working on next?

[45:26] Julian: I working on I have an adult romance coming out next year, so I've been drafting the second and adult romance for that. And then I have another ya that I'm working on. I guess that I can tease is sort of a you reach Sam meets the song of Achilles.

[45:52] Marissa: All right, lastly, where can people find you?

[45:55] Julian: They can find me on Instagram at wintersjulian. You can find me on Twitter or athenae at julianwrights. I know that's very complicated. They weren't kind to me when I tried to pick a username. Or you can just check out my website, julianwinters.com.

[46:16] Marissa: Awesome. Julian, thank you so much for joining me.

[46:19] Julian: Thank you so much for this amazing conversation. I loved it.

[46:23] Marissa: Readers definitely check out Prince of the Palisades. It comes out next week, August 20, but can be pre ordered today. Of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore if you can. If you don't have a local indie, you can also check out our affiliate store@bookshop.org, shop Marissa Meyer next week. I am very excited to talk with Adeline Grace about the third book in her gothic fantasy Belladonna series titled wisteria. Please leave us a review and follow us on Instagram. Happywriterpodcast and don't forget to check out our merchandise on etsy. Until next time, stay inspired, keep writing, and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.