Vampires Meet Jewish Folklore with A.R. Vishny - Night Owls

Marissa chats with A. R. Vishny about her debut paranormal YA romance, NIGHT OWLS. Also discussed in this episode: the popularity of getting started with fanfiction, how much timing can matter in the submission process, the recent trend (again!) of vampires, the inherent challenges of writing vampire romance, the importance of knowing a character’s bagel order, creating a strong sense of place using real locations for inspiration, and so much more!

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Transcript

[00:10] Marissa: Hello.

[00:10] A. R. : Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. What has been making me happy this week is that my in laws, my father in law and his wife were off on a road trip here about a week ago and when they were passing through Idaho, I'm not sure where in Idaho. I think near Boise, but I haven't actually looked at a map. They happened upon cinder winery. You heard that right? There is a cinder winery. It is located in Garden city, Idaho. There is absolutely no connection whatsoever to my book. However, I was so excited to hear about it and I was really stoked when my in laws got home and they brought me a whole collection of wines with these really fancy cinder labels. So I definitely hope to go visit the winery myself someday. They had only wonderful things to say about it. They actually stopped in not releasing that. The winery was closed that day or they were in off hours or something. But one of the winemakers was there and gave them a vip tour and they just said the wine was great, the place was beautiful. So they had a really great experience and I just think it's so cool. So I am saving my bottles, the bottles that they brought from me for some special occasion. I'm thinking maybe like, I don't know, when the Cinder movie comes out, that would be a great use for them, wouldn't you agree? So we will see. I'm so excited. If you want to check them out and maybe order your own bottle of cinder wine, you can place orders through their website@cinderwines.com, i am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. She holds a BA in English from the University of Massachusetts Amherst and a JD at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law where she was a law and literature fellow. Her essays have appeared in Teen Vogue, the Washington Post and hey Alma. And now her debut novel, Night Owls is coming out tomorrow, September 17. Please welcome Ar Vishny.

[02:35] Marissa: Hi. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me, Marisa.

[02:38] A. R. : I'm so thrilled to have you. I was really lucky to get an early, early copy of this book and I read it. I mean, I don't know how many months ago that was now, but I loved it. And it's one of those books that has really stuck with me since I read it. And so I'm really excited that it's finally about to come out in the world and that I get to talk to you today.

[03:00] Marissa: Yeah, no, I'm thrilled. I can't believe it either. It's, you know, it's really surreal that it's coming out tomorrow.

[03:07] A. R. : You're there. How are you feeling? Are you nervous? Are you scared? Are you excited? A little bit of everything.

[03:13] Marissa: A little bit of everything. I mean, it's the. It's one of those things where the book has been with me for a long time at this point. So there's like, that part of me that's like, ugh, just wanted to come out already. But there's also that terror of like, oh, no, it's coming out. You know, but it's a good feeling. I'm really excited and I'm really thrilled with how the books come together. So mostly. Mostly it's good feelings.

[03:37] A. R. : Yeah. No, it's a huge accomplishment. It's a dream come true. Do you know how you're going to celebrate? Do you have any big plans for launch day?

[03:45] Marissa: Yes. So I'm doing a launch at Books of Wonder with author Rachel Moore. So we're going to have, like, a paranormal rom.com conversation and books of wonder. It's an indie bookstore in New York City. And. Yeah. And then probably, I know my parents are going to come in, so we'll probably get some. A nice dinner and celebrate with some of my friends. So, yeah, I mean, that's so far the plan.

[04:11] A. R. : Well, that sounds delightful and congratulations.

[04:15] Marissa: Thank you.

[04:16] A. R. : All right, before we talk about the book, the first thing I want to know is your origin story, because reading your bio, like, I know that you have some background in English and literature, but also school of law. I'm confused about this. So tell me, what was your study? What have your direction in life been so far that has brought you to now being a published author?

[04:44] Marissa: Oh, yeah. No, definitely. So, yeah, you would not be the first person who's a little confused that I'm a lawyer and also write vampire novels. So, yeah, I have written for a long time, probably since middle school. And like a lot of authors, my entry point was originally fan fiction. You know, when I think I discovered that it was a thing that existed online and it was a way to fill the time between, you know, books coming out in the series that I loved. I got super into it at first reading it and then realizing at a certain point that it was something I could try writing. So I was doing a little bit of that starting in middle school, going into high school, and then it became kind of supercharged when I got to college because I was an english major at UMass, and how UMass does this thing where you can choose to live in your first year on different themed floors. And I chose the creative writing floor and very quickly fell in with a group of friends who, like me, loved fanfiction and loved writing and talking about storytelling. And we did that all the time. So my classes and the actual things I was enrolled in UMass were important, but in terms of learning to be a writer, learning how to build a world and a magic system and how to think through plot problems was really happening on the floor of my friend's dorm room over a package of oreos on a Saturday night. We were very cool people.

[06:22] A. R. : This sounds like a multi year writing retreat.

[06:26] Marissa: It really was. I miss it all the time. You know, it's what. That is definitely something I miss because that's hard to recreate in the real world. It's, you know, I'm still in contact with many of them, and I have other writing friends, but, you know, being in that space where you can just do that 24/7 there's nothing like it.

[06:45] A. R. : Yeah, no, that sounds super, super dreamy.

[06:47] Marissa: Yeah. So, yeah, it was a lot of that. And then when I, you know, afterward, when I graduated and went to law school, I missed that. So I realized, you know, I had wonderful law school friends, but I needed that creative outlet, so I got back into writing sort of my original work more seriously, and, you know, kept doing that and doing that and. Yeah, until I finally was able to, you know, write night owls. So that was. That was the journey. It was long, but ultimately it was just, again, doing a lot of writing and doing a lot of bonding with other writers until I hit that one story.

[07:29] A. R. : Yeah. Okay, I have to ask. I also come from a fanfiction background, and fanfiction comes up all the time on this podcast, like so many of us have it in our history, in our backgrounds. Well, you're comfortable saying, what did you write for?

[07:46] Marissa: Okay, so, I mean, it was another time. I did write. Harry Potter was an entry point.

[07:51] A. R. : You are not alone.

[07:52] Marissa: Yeah, it was 2007. It was a different moment. In addition to that, I did, you know, it was a lot of basic stuff. It was doing like Twilight, a little bit of hunger games, I think, with my friends. We did this thing which shows how cool we were. We wrote, at one point a combined universe where we wrote like, the Pevensies, from the Chronicles of Narnia into the Harry Potter universe. When we realized that Peter Pevensy, you could do the math so that he would be the same age as Tom Riddle, which spawned endless fanfiction and alternate universe work, and again, four years worth of it.

[08:39] A. R. : Wow.

[08:40] Marissa: Writing.

[08:41] A. R. : That sounds pretty epic.

[08:43] Marissa: Yeah.

[08:44] A. R. : Okay, so then, once you did turn your attention more to original works, how many manuscripts did you attempt? How many did you finish? How many did you query? Like, what was kind of the journey from deciding, okay, I want to write a book. Up until night owls.

[09:06] Marissa: Yeah. So I think I'm remembering them all. There were five manuscripts that I wrote before night owls. There were two books I wrote in high school. One I just wrote to the end but didn't query. The second one. I queried and got one partial request because I was really a baby writer and didn't know what I was doing. But it was very flattering and very exciting. Then I had a third manuscript when I was in college that you could tell when reading it that I had just gotten into doctor who in retrospect, but that. So that also, I queried and got a little bit of interest, but it didn't stick. Then when I was in law school, I wrote another project that was an urban fantasy. That one got me more interest and more requests from agents, but again, no one offered on it. Then after that, I wrote a historical fiction that actually got me my agent, but it died a slow death on sub. Night Owls was the project that came after that.

[10:14] A. R. : I think those ones that die a slow death on sub are, to me, they feel like they would be the most painful. Like, you must have just felt like you were so close.

[10:23] Marissa: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Because it was all those infuriating passes. We love this. Definitely send us the next thing, and you're like, that's not helpful.

[10:33] A. R. : Right, but how about a book deal?

[10:36] Marissa: Yeah. Or they list all the reasons they love it, and you're like, well, if you love it so much, where is the offer?

[10:44] A. R. : Yeah.

[10:44] Marissa: So it was hard, that one. And again, it was something my agent tried so hard. We both really loved the project, but I think by the end, we had gone to, like, 45 editors or something. It was like every single editor in the business and no one offered. So just.

[10:59] A. R. : Yeah. Do you think it was a timing thing? Because you hear this all the time, that an editor loves something, but the timing isn't right. For whatever reason, it's not on trend. It's too similar to something else that's popular. It's, you know, blah, blah, blah. Do you think that's what it was? Or do you have any inclination of why no one grabbed it?

[11:18] Marissa: Yeah. No. So I do think timing is part of it. So it was historical fiction, and it was specifically like a medieval set historical fiction, but not like true medieval. It was like, you know, a knight's tale medieval, which was a lot of fun.

[11:36] A. R. : Favorite kind of medieval.

[11:37] Marissa: I love that kind of storytelling. But I think it's a thing that we kept hearing over and over again, was that historical fiction is a hard sell, at least in ya. So. Especially because it wasn't like a World War Two book, which was something a few publishers told me outright that they only wanted to consider, like a world War two or Holocaust book. Yeah. Which was a little upsetting, but, yeah. So I think that was a lot of it. I think. Yeah, sometimes it's just timing. It's like catching, because I know after, you know, down the road, you see projects that aren't so dissimilar to it, but, you know, maybe that author got to the editor first or that manuscript hit them in a way that mine just didn't. Yeah, I think that's so much of what it comes down to. Really.

[12:23] A. R. : Have you given up on it, or do you think there might be life for it in the future, maybe?

[12:31] Marissa: Again, I really loved it. I think if I went back to it, I would totally rework it. Like night owls, it had, like, three pov characters, which I think if I went back to it, I would actually try just doing one pov. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Because I know there was, like, one. I think that was much, like, a stronger lens to focus on. I think maybe having the three pobs made it more complicated than it needed to be. Yeah, that's, I think, definitely something. If I may again, maybe one day, I'll never say never.

[13:02] A. R. : Someday. Never say never. But where you got to go where inspiration takes you.

[13:06] Marissa: Right, exactly. Yeah.

[13:08] A. R. : All right, so then you come to night owls, and you mentioned way early on that it had been with you for a long time. How long you working on this book?

[13:19] Marissa: So I started seriously drafting it back in 2021. And it was like, right before, like, the vaccine, like, the COVID vaccines were becoming available, so things were still, you know, closed and there wasn't much to do and just kind of trapped in my apartment all the time. So that's when I started seriously writing it. But actually, there are pieces of it that I was pulling on from, like, unfinished projects and sort of vague attempts at other things that go back even further to, like, 2018. So, yeah, so, definitely. And I'm not the fastest writer in the world, so it's been a process since then.

[13:59] A. R. : Yeah. All right. So on that note. Here you are. Debut novel coming out. Would you please tell listeners what is night owls about?

[14:10] Marissa: Sure. Some night Owls is about two estres, which are bread eating, owl shifting women vampires from Jewish Fulbor. And these two, they live in a movie theater in Manhattan that used to be a yiddish stage. The older sister, Clara, is like, rule abiding and uncompromising and has this rule against, like, dating and romance that her younger sister Molly just totally ignores. She has a girlfriend, a knot. It's a very poorly kept secret. But then when a knot disappears, they have to team up with their infuriatingly charming box office attendant, Boaz, to find her, and in the process have to face ghosts and demons and this monstrous underworld in Manhattan in order to find her. And if they fail, they will disappear and, you know, maybe break the fabric of reality as, you know, no big deal. Yeah, you know.

[15:12] A. R. : All right, so we were talking a little bit before we started the recording about this rise of vampires over the last year, and we've had a handful of vampire books on the podcast, and I have loved reading a handful of them in relatively short order because they've all been so different. And it's a reminder that even though vampires have been around for forever, there's still so much that writers can do with them, so many different takes we can have. And I just thought that the way that you wrote, and you don't call them vampires, you call them estres, as you mentioned, based on this jewish folklore, which I was not familiar with, but I thought it was so cool and so different. Would you talk a little bit about vampires, the return of vampires, paranormal? What are some of your inspirations?

[16:04] Marissa: Oh, sure. I mean, so I think, like a lot of the authors, I suspect, who are writing vampires now in this kind of second wave, a big influence for me was that first wave of vampires. I know, like Twilight and true blood and all of that was happening when I was in high school and the target audience of ya. And I loved it. I totally ate it up. It was just something I was always drawn to. And I particularly, and there are things I particularly liked about them, especially thinking with the Charlayne Harris books, that strong sense of place in that voice that she cultivates over the course of the books. It's like sitting down. It feels like you're sitting down with her characters over a cup of coffee. I loved that. So it was something that I always had in the back of my brain as this thing I just really loved as a reader. But then, of course, there was a point where vampires were at their peak, then it turns into, oh, no one wants vampires. We're all sick of vampires. But the beauty is that eventually a lot of this stuff comes in cycles. So we waited long enough, and then suddenly you start to hear rumblings of people wanting vampires again or missing. So that was definitely that. You know, once I started hearing that and, you know, feeling like there was enough time and enough distance from that first wave, it felt like, you know, dipping my toe back in would be a safe thing to do or a worthwhile thing to do. And, yeah, and I. And I mean, as I was trying on those things that I loved, I loved also, you know, what we do in the shadows to me was another great one just because it's so funny and in many ways, it's playing with tropes, but it's also very unexpected in a lot of ways. So that is also something I always have in the back of my head, again, just sort of like vampires that can find that balance between being witty and very dramatic and deadly serious is something that I always love in storytelling.

[18:08] A. R. : Yeah, no, I also love that. I love that when there's this balance of big stakes and darkness and that then also humor. And that's one thing that this book has a lot of. There's really some very charming, very funny parts, largely because Boaz is so great.

[18:25] Marissa: Yeah, no, he was my favorite character to write. I mean, I loved all my characters, but because a lot of the humor came through in Boaz's voice, he was definitely the most fun.

[18:33] A. R. : Yeah. Were you concerned at all about trying to make sure that this book would be set apart in the vampire genre, that it would have kind of a unique voice, or how did you tackle that?

[18:47] Marissa: That was a good question, I think. I mean, I know for me, there's always that part where you want it to feel original and you don't want it to feel too much like, you know, what came before. And again, especially with Nya, the giant elephant in the room, is always going to be twilight when you talk about vampires. At the same time, there are things I did love about those books, and I know that people loved about them and why they were so popular. So on the one hand, I didn't want it to feel too similar, but I was also aware of, like, what tropes did. I like, what did I like about those books? And is there a way to play with some of those elements and weave that through? I think the big thing, which I didn't even totally realize originally, but my editor pointed out, was that Boz is kind of a Bella swan and that he's.

[19:36] A. R. : No, no, he has way more personality.

[19:39] Marissa: Thank you. So, like, you know, more personality. But, you know, he's. He's the human in the relationship, and he's got his strengths, and it's mostly letting Clara do, you know, the muscle.

[19:55] A. R. : Yeah.

[19:56] Marissa: And actually, in actually handling the situation. So there's a little bit of that. Again, just like the love, like the. We know the romance element is always going to be something that you want to have in there and something. I really enjoyed writing, but, yeah, I mean, I think the end result doesn't feel that much like twilight, but I hope that magic that originally got me as, like, a freshman in high school is there that sort of, again, that combination of big stakes and big feelings and I think the appeal of a love interest who is actually secretly 150 years old.

[20:36] A. R. : Right. No, and I love that there was that kind of gender swapped scenario where this time it is the girl that is 150 years old and falling in love with this teenage boy. And this is the thing about vampires is that there's always a tiny bit that's like, huh. Is that weird? But I loved it. They were so good together. I.

[21:01] Marissa: Thank you. Yeah, no, I mean, there was. There was definitely that thought a few times, and I know there were, like, a couple of the editors who passed on it were like, clearly vampires weren't for them. They were like, I can't get past the fact that she's 150.

[21:14] A. R. : I got past it. I'm over it.

[21:16] Marissa: Thank you. But, yeah, no, I think that. I mean, yeah, and I think. And that's, you know, I think part of what's fun to explore in the genre is that. That fantasy of it, because would you actually want to be in a relationship with, you know, 150 year old killing machine? Probably not. Exactly. I don't judge. Yeah. So, I mean, that was definitely a fun part. And I do think one thing I found, like, I had read, I mean, I read, you know, Twilight when those books were coming out. I also read a few years ago when she. When Stephanie Meyer released Midnight sun. And a thing I ran up against when reading the book was when you read it, you suddenly realize the book is written from Edward's perspective and that the moment you're writing from the vampire's perspective, it's really hard, because I found in that book, a lot of that book is him thinking about how much he wants to eat Bella. It's a little unnerving to read. So that was definitely something I had in the back of my head and a challenge when writing both, like, Clara and Molly was thinking about, like, how do I tell the story from their perspective and keep the romance without making it weird.

[22:34] A. R. : Yeah.

[22:35] Marissa: So, yeah, so that was definitely, like, a tricky balance and something that I worked a lot on through the different drafts.

[22:42] A. R. : Yeah, I totally get that. I think you succeeded. Like, I was sold on the romance completely. Was there any. I don't know, any tricks, anything you can point to that you were like, oh, I started thinking of it this way, or I added scenes where this happened. Was there a moment where you kind of were like, okay, I know how to make the romance work despite these challenges.

[23:05] Marissa: That's a good question. I mean, some of it was trial and error and working out blocking and scenes. Figuring out, too, especially when I knew a certain scene needed to happen, figuring out a who was the best pov character to see that scene in, which, again, sometimes is trial and error. Some of it was, honestly, my editor. You know, when you write, you write something a million times at a certain point, you have a hard time seeing, like, where could I fight in the romance? Or where could I add, you know, just that perfect detail. And that was something my editor was super helpful with because she could point to certain scenes and be like, hey, like, what does he notice about Clara? You know, here, that's. Or maybe they should kiss over here.

[23:51] A. R. : Also admire kissing.

[23:52] Marissa: Yeah, that was a big, like, early developmental edit where she's like, I think they need to kiss more. Okay, challenge accepted.

[24:00] A. R. : Right? Oh, darn.

[24:02] Marissa: Yes.

[24:03] A. R. : I mean, one of the things that I loved about them that I thought part of the reason they worked so well for me as a reader is because you get that grumpy sunshine trope, which is one of my favorites. And there's kind of that yin and yang element to them where you can see that together, they. Oh, it's so cheesy that they complete each other, but they do. They make each other better in different ways.

[24:32] Marissa: Yeah, no, I can definitely see that. And it's definitely a trope I love early on in the process, that was a thing I actually did when I was brainstorming, was I had actually just created two lists where I wrote down on one side things I wanted to write about or things I thought would be good in the story. And the other side, it was all the tropes that I love, all the characters that I love, and things like that. And I always kept that list open on the side on my notes app next to the word document, which was really helpful for me because it was a reminder. It's like, oh yeah, that's something I love. Or if I'm a little stuck, like, yeah, that's something I can lean on. Make her grumpier, make him dorky.

[25:15] A. R. : Right? I love that. I also have a similar list. I call it my inspiration list, and I don't keep it just front and center all the time, but it is something that I go back to periodically. Whenever I'm brainstorming a new story, or whenever I'm, like, getting ready to revise something, I'll go and I'll read through that list and think, okay, what else can I add to this book? Or what else can I bring to the surface to make sure I'm hitting on those things that I really love?

[25:43] Marissa: Oh yeah. No, I definitely recommend that to everyone when people ask for advice, because I think part of it for me, and something I'm always reminding myself is just a goal when you're writing, is to write the kind of book that you would love to read. Yeah. That's something that appeals to you as a reader. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely something that's become an important part of my process.

[26:04] A. R. : No, I think that is so smart. I think it's great advice. 

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Marissa: all right, so speaking of the romance and these two characters, as you mentioned before, it is a three point of view book. So we've got the two sisters, Estri, Vampire sisters, Clara and Molly, and then we have a perspective from Boaz as well. What was the decision making process like to include all three characters? And then once you knew it was going to be all three characters, what were some things you did to make sure you were having unique voices and bringing all of their personalities to life?

[28:30] Marissa: Yeah. So it's funny, actually, I think I gravitate toward writing multiple pov stories. Like, I mentioned the. The project right before, this one also was a three pov. So I just like to make things complicated for myself. Apparently, we do that. Yeah. You know, why make this simple? But, yeah, so that was part of it. But originally, so it was always a three pov story. But actually, in, like, the zero draft, it was very different. And at one point, there were three s, three sisters, so there was Ara, Molly, and then, like, a third sister, and the story was really different. Boas was super different, and, like, a minor character, it was very, very different. I figured out pretty quickly that this third sister and Molly's voice were very similar and that I didn't like. There was parts of that sister I really liked, but Molly was really the character who had more momentum, and there were things that that third sister was adding to the story that I just really couldn't stand. She had, like, a really lousy boyfriend, and I was like, no one wants to hear about the lousy boyfriend, so I don't want to write about the lousy boyfriend. So I ended up cutting her. And then in, like, maybe that sort of zero draft space, I realized I really liked boas as a character. So I realized pretty quickly that, you know, it was going to be two sisters and it was going to be, you know, give Boaz a chance. And it was also helpful because then it gave me that human perspective. So we aren't just hearing the story through the lens of our estuary vampires, which was good because I also learned, again from having read Midnight sun is that you do need that human perspective sometimes when you're going into a vampire story, because otherwise there's going to be a lot of staring at necks and thinking about eating your beloved.

[30:25] A. R. : Again, no judgment.

[30:26] Marissa: No judgment.

[30:28] A. R. : How about developing the voice for each character?

[30:31] Marissa: Yeah, developing the voice. So for those. And it appears in the draft, and it was actually end up being part of how I did it. There are these interstitial chapters that have this folkloric voice and I did those early on, originally not intending to include them in the book. I was doing that as a character building exercise where I wanted to have a really strong sense of what are my characters backstories and where are they coming from and what is the lens they're seeing in the story. And that ended up, you know, I liked what I wrote so much that I'm like, I should add this in. And it was also a really helpful way of delivering a lot of context and background without just having the characters explain it. So those went in, and those also, again, helped me have a clear sense of the characters and that element of their voice. The other thing I do is kind of, you know, an offshoot of fanfiction. I do almost, like, fanfiction type exercises for my own characters very early on. Once I get a sense of, like, you know, what are my characters backstories? What are their basic traits? You know, what is going to be their want and their need and why they exist in the story. I do things like coming up with their Starbucks orders, you know, or, like, planning itineraries for them in, like, you know, in New York City or in my hometown and things like that. Goofy exercises like that help me solidify, like, you know, their voices in my head and give me a sense of, like, who are they, and how would they make even these kind of inconsequential decisions that are never going to turn up in the final draft? So that's also something I do to help me, again, really zero in on their voices and, like, their individual senses of humor and how they respond to different situations.

[32:22] A. R. : Yeah, no, that's interesting. I don't often do those sorts of exercises, but there have been times when, you know, it's fairly common over the course of an entire novel when you're probably gonna see the main character's bedroom at some point. Not every story, but it's not unusual. And there's been so many books when suddenly we're in the bedroom, and I have absolutely no idea what their bedroom looks like, you know? And that's always that moment for me where it's like, okay, I need to dig a little deeper. I need to get to know this character a little better. For some reason. It's the bedroom for me.

[32:52] Marissa: Oh, yeah. No, the bedroom is definitely that space because it tells you so much about the character. I know it's like one of those things I remember when I was just, like, first starting out, and you see things like those character worksheets where it's like, what's your character's favorite color or what's your character's favorite food? And I remember thinking, like, why does that matter what they're not going to talk about? My favorite color is green. But what I learned over time was doing that kind of work, it helps you figure out, let's say, when you create the character's bedroom, if you know your character loves green, you know, maybe his balls are green. Or if you know that they love tacos, you know, like, if they're walking on the street and they're going to stop in a restaurant, maybe they're going to gravitate toward the taco restaurant, things like that, you know, doing and doing those kinds of exercises. It helps me out later on. Yeah, no, that's.

[33:45] A. R. : Yeah, it kind of just helps to add that little bit of depth. And even when things don't appear on the surface level of the book, I do think that the better we know our characters, that subtext is going to be there and readers are going to notice it.

[34:02] Marissa: Oh, definitely. Yeah. I feel like I don't know my characters until I know their bagel orders. So once I know their bagel orders, I'm like, we're good to go.

[34:11] A. R. : That was very quotable. That will definitely be going up on the podcast Instagram feed. So earlier on, you had talked about, I can't remember which one it was. Now, one of your inspirations, was it? The Charlene Harris that you mentioned had just a really strong sense of place, and I love that you said that, because I feel that 100% in this book, not only because we are in Manhattan and it's very crowded and there's this very happening nightlife, but the grand dame, the theater that these sisters own and manage, that Boaz is one of their employees, and it feels like a real place. Is there a real theater that inspired this location?

[34:59] Marissa: Yes, there is.

[35:00] A. R. : Oh, I'm so happy you said that.

[35:02] Marissa: So there is a very real place. This is very strongly modeled on the, I think it's called currently cinema Village east by Angelica, which is even standing on the location where this theater is. It's on Second Avenue and 12th street in Manhattan in the east Village. And it's not as cool as my version.

[35:26] A. R. : I mean, it's probably not run by vampires.

[35:30] Marissa: No, not to my knowledge. It doesn't have, like, you know, it's not a portal to other worlds or run by, you know, doesn't have a demon landlord. I mean, I don't know, maybe, but basically, yeah. So it has a very similar history. It is now currently in indie cinema, but used to be a yiddish stage and still has a lot of the original details. So, like, when you go into their main screen, it still has like the light fixture that was probably there for the original. It's like a giant star of David, you know, very ornate. And there's a lot of the, you know, around the screen, like the decor you would associate with going to like an old, like an old timey theater. So, yeah, very much a real place.

[36:16] A. R. : And did you. And it sounds like you've been there.

[36:19] Marissa: Yes. So, yeah.

[36:21] A. R. : Tell me, just kind of through your research slash world building process.

[36:26] Marissa: Oh, sure, yeah. So I been there a bunch of times. I actually used to live like a block over when I was in law school, and I went a lot, especially because I don't know. So I don't know if anyone remembers this, but for a brief and shining moment, and I guess it would have been 2017, maybe. There was this thing called Moviepass, which for this absurdly cheap price, you could get. It was like $9.99 a month. You could get one movie ticket a day from any participating theater, which is an insane deal. The company eventually fell apart, but in that interim, I was going, I had this, and I went to movies like all the time. And it was a wonderful way to explore the different independent cinemas in the neighborhood. So that's how I wound up going in there. And it made such an impression on me. It was such a cool space that I kept going. And I had that in my head for a long time. And a lot of other landmarks in the neighborhood because I was walking around there all the time and it was very familiar to me. So I knew when I was brainstorming. And again, it was around and still in that time where you couldn't leave your house. I was thinking a lot about Edo, those times and those days where I'd go to the movie and then maybe get pierogies at Baselka or B and H Dairy, another deli in the neighborhood, and wander around with an iced coffee. And those simple things ended up being what I wanted to put into the story. So it was just a neighborhood I was already really familiar with, and then got to invoke a lot of that and bring those details in when I sat down to write.

[38:06] A. R. : No, I love that. And it shows. This is one of those books that is very atmospheric. Whenever the characters are in a new location, there's just so many great details. And of course, we talk a lot when it comes to setting to include these sensory details to really help anchor your reader in the space, and you did that so well. And I feel like I've been to this theater and I'm really excited that it's a real place or inspired by a real place.

[38:36] Marissa: Yeah, I definitely recommend if you happen to be in New York City and have an afternoon to kill, it's very worthwhile going. You just try to make sure you see what's ever on. I think an auditorium one.

[38:46] A. R. : Yeah. Are you going to do like, you should do like, some cool social media promotion stuff there?

[38:51] Marissa: I've been trying. I need to get back down there and see if I can, you know, make an Instagram reel or something because, yeah, I love it there and wind up being down there a lot.

[39:02] A. R. : And I'm sure, I mean, I don't know if the people who own it now know about your book, but I bet they'd just be delighted.

[39:08] Marissa: Yeah, no, I keep tagging them on Instagram, and I was like, how can I make this not weird? But, yeah, I might even maybe send an email being like, hey, I wrote a book. It's about you people. Hope you like it.

[39:22] A. R. : I'm on to you.

[39:24] Marissa: Yeah.

[39:25] A. R. : All right, my last question before we move on to the bonus round, I just wanted to touch briefly on the magic because it is a paranormal. There are demons, and there is this really. The magic system is very kind of surreal, very kind of dreamy in parts, and quite different from what I think of as typical paranormal magic. What was your process for kind of thinking about and creating the magic system?

[39:57] Marissa: Sure. Yeah. So I think so early on, because I knew it was going to be set in a theater, and that theater was going to play this big role in the sort of physical locations and spaces. When I was thinking about the magic and how to build in this world or how the characters would interact with the supernatural, I was thinking a lot about my theater experiences in the city and specifically that sort of magic. I think theater has to blur the lines between reality and storytelling. So especially there's this thing called sleep no more, and they actually have a new production. It's called life and trust. It's a theater company in the city that does these immersive productions that are very elaborate. So sleep no more is set in, it's supposed to be a retelling of Macbeth, set like in a noir hotel, and it's told over three floors of this building that are made to look like a hotel. And you wander through and you follow the actors. And I love it. It's one of my favorite things to do in the city because it's, again, it's a really interesting way to use theater, and it really, again, blurs that line between that reality and story and the audience member and the actor. So I was thinking a lot about that when I was trying to then build in the world, and again, how the characters move through space. I was thinking a lot about the immersive theater and just other very powerful theater experiences that I've had. So I'm glad that's come through because that was definitely the hope and the idea.

[41:38] A. R. : That sounds super cool. And so, New York.

[41:42] Marissa: Yeah, it's been around for a while. You know, I think it might have been on, like, way back in the original Gossip girl, there was an episode that was, like, set in sleep no more. So it's been around for a hot minute. It is very, like, a quintessential New York thing to do. I highly recommend, if anyone. Again, I think it's closing, but there's, like, a new production that's the same idea, but it's set, like, in a gilded Age bank. Highly recommend.

[42:09] A. R. : Now that sounds fascinating. An experience.

[42:12] Marissa: Yeah, it's a theatrical experience.

[42:14] A. R. : Okay. Are you ready for a bonus round?

[42:17] Marissa: Of course.

[42:18] A. R. : What book makes you happy?

[42:20] Marissa: What book makes me happy? That is really hard because there's a lot. But recently I read Assen Ruins by Rachel Moore because I'm doing an event with her tomorrow. And I'm not just saying it because I'm doing the event with her. It was absolutely a delight. It's basically, I think she pitches it as Lizzie McGuire meets the mummy, which is the exact vibe. It's a girl who goes to Rome on an archaeology trip through her school and winds up meeting this archaeologist who was frozen in stone in the 1930s, but he's come alive, and there, you know, there's a grumpy sunshine element. It's so much fun, and it's so sweet, and the romance is so pitch perfect. So I read it fairly recently, and it's been such a delight. I'm really excited that other people are getting to read it.

[43:15] A. R. : That is 100% up my aisle. I am ordering that immediately.

[43:20] Marissa: Yeah, definitely do it. You will have a blast.

[43:23] A. R. : What are you working on next?

[43:26] Marissa: So currently, I've been. It's not under contract yet, but I've been playing with a project I would describe as a jewish beetlejuice. It will involve demons and some of the things that I really enjoyed incorporated into night owls. But I challenged myself to set something in my hometown in suburban Massachusetts. So that's been a fun project in keeping me busy.

[43:53] A. R. : Lastly, where can people find you?

[43:55] Marissa: So I'm all over the Internet, but most active at this point on instagram. It's Ar Vishny is my handle. I can also be reached via email@arvishnymail.com. yeah, I'm always happy to hear from readers or anyone who wants to know where they can go see the cool movie theater in the village.

[44:17] A. R. : Nice.

[44:19] Marissa: Awesome.

[44:19] A. R. : Ara, thank you so much for joining me.

[44:22] Marissa: Thank you so much again for having me. This is a lot of fun readers.

[44:26] A. R. : Be sure to check out night owls. It comes out tomorrow. Of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore, but if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store@bookshop.org. shop Marissa Meyer next week I am so excited to be talking to Sabata here. Pause for fangirling. We're going to be discussing the first book in her new fantasy duology, air. As in like heir to the throne, not the air you breathe. Anyway, I can't wait. Please leave us a review and follow us on Instagram. Happy writer podcast. And don't forget to check out our merchandise on etsy. Until next time, stay inspired, keep writing, and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.