Solving Impossible Plot Problems with Amanda M. Helander - Divine Mortals

Marissa chats with Amanda M. Helander about her debut romantasy, DIVINE MORTALS. Also discussed in this episode: how keeping diaries can be a first step in a writing career, publishing timelines and how there’s no such thing as typical, the frustration of fitting books into age categories and writing books in their margins, worldbuilding, planning for a duology, mining breadcrumbs from book one to create threads in book two, embracing limitations in characters, writing to make yourself happy, and so much more!

The Happy Writer at Bookshop.org
Purchasing your books through our webstore at Bookshop.org supports independent bookstores.

Amplify Marketers
Our mission is to help your message rise above the noise so it can be heard loud & clear.

Red Herrings Society
Use the code HappyWriter at RedHerringWriters.com to try the first month for free.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Order The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond https://bookshop.org/a/11756/9781250362377

Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/

Transcript

[00:10] Marissa: Hello. Hello and welcome to the happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you for joining me. As a real quick reminder, please, when you have a second, I would so appreciate it if you could take a moment and leave us a rating or a review on your favorite podcast app that helps other writers and readers discover us. We are indeed back from our long family road trip that we just took down the Oregon and California coast. We had an absolute blast. I got to meet up with some really great writer friends. Hadn't seen them in a while. What else? We also did two escape rooms during the trip. You guys know how I love those. And yes, we escaped both of them. Although one of them, we literally only escaped with seconds to spare. Our souls were almost consumed by the blood hungry ghost, but we didn't. We survived. Gosh, it was a really, really fun, action packed trip. We went, rode bikes over the Golden Gate Bridge and went to Alcatraz and like saw a concert in Santa Barbara. All good things had such a great time. And now we're back home and I've got two book releases, let it glow and the happy writer, both coming out in the next few months. And I also have three book deadlines, all looming very closely on the horizon. So I don't know about you, but I am super inspired to hunker down this fall and get so much writing done. I'm ready. I'm feeling just like incredibly motivated. Let's do this. To totally like, switch gears from that, like, related sort of, kind of. The thing that has been making me happy since we have been home is our cat, Mister Binks. Totally a fall name. He's named after the cat in hocus pocus, which is, you know, one of the best Halloween movies of all time, in my opinion. Or at least I thought so when I was twelve. It holds up. It's held up pretty good. Anyway, Mister Binks, he came to stay with us at as a stray maybe like two years ago. And he was just one of those cats. It took so long to earn his trust. Um, he was so, so skittish. He can actually still be pretty skittish sometimes. But also, he has just become like the most lovey dovey cat that I think I've ever owned in my life. And since we got home from the road trip, he has like, just wanted to purr and cuddle non stop. Um, and honestly, he would not leave me alone this morning as I was preparing for today's recording and interview, and so that's why he gets a special place as my happy thing for this week. Yeah. You know, I like cats, and it just makes me really happy that this one came to us and that he seems so, like, not scared anymore and enjoying being in our happy little home. Also, he's a great mouse hunter, so that's a bonus. Lots of gifts. Yay. All right. I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. She's a paralegal from Seattle, Washington, who writes about mental health struggles and hot wizard boyfriends. Her debut novel, divine Mortals, just came out last week. Please welcome Amanda M. Helender.

[03:45] Amanda: Hi.

[03:48] Marissa: How are you?

[03:49] Amanda: Oh, I am actually great. I'm still kind of riding the high of my launch event and making zucchini bread. Today was just really giving me life.

[04:02] Marissa: I love that. Did you grow the zucchini?

[04:05] Amanda: I wish. I do have a little garden, but I killed my zucchini plant, I'm embarrassed to say, but I did get some good zucchini for this bread that is not dead.

[04:18] Marissa: Oh, that's good. Zucchini is one of those things. Like, I don't love zucchini, but having had multiple vegetable gardens over the years, I feel like you kind of have to have zucchini because it's the only one that's reliable. Like, you know you're going to get stuff from this plant.

[04:33] Amanda: Oh, that's the zucchini I had last year. I just couldn't stop. It was like zucchini after zucchini.

[04:39] Marissa: Yeah. And then they get to be like, as big as your arm, right?

[04:42] Amanda: No, it was quite terrifying, some of them.

[04:46] Marissa: Well, that sounds delicious. And congratulations. As of this recording, your book just came out last night. How does it feel? Is it sunk in yet?

[04:55] Amanda: Oh, I think so. You know, I actually got to see it physically in some bookstores and some, my family sent me some pictures of other bookstores, and that makes it really feel like it's happening.

[05:10] Marissa: Yeah. Did you do anything special to celebrate?

[05:14] Amanda: Just getting to spend some time with my family yesterday really felt like a celebration, especially because my parents, they live in Las Vegas, and they came up as a surprise.

[05:24] Marissa: Oh, nice.

[05:25] Amanda: So that was really nice. You know, I don't get to see them quite as often anymore, and it really was a celebratory atmosphere.

[05:35] Marissa: I love that. Well, huge. Congratulations. It's such a big thing. I mean, releasing any book is a big thing, but the debut, the first one, it's extra special, so I hope you're just like, you know, living your best life right now.

[05:48] Amanda: It definitely feels like it.

[05:51] Marissa: And I'm so excited to hear that. You live in Seattle? Yes, I am in Tacoma. We're definitely gonna have to hang out. I can't wait to meet you in person.

[06:00] Amanda: For sure. I know. It's always just this, like, wonderful surprise when I realize that an author lives near me. It's. I don't know.

[06:10] Marissa: I know. And then you become buddies. I feel like we all need to have as many writer friends as possible.

[06:18] Amanda: Oh, absolutely.

[06:20] Marissa: Yeah. It's a weird job. It's a weird thing that we do. And, like, as much as family and friends can be wonderfully encouraging and supportive, nobody really gets what's happening in our heads other than writers.

[06:36] Amanda: Like, at my launch event yesterday, my conversation partner was Camilla Cole, who wrote so let them burn, which is just an amazing book. And it was the first time we'd really ever hung out and met in person. And it was just this instant connection. I think the writers have this thing. You meet each other and you automatically are like, you get me.

[06:57] Marissa: Yeah, no, it is. It's like an instant kindred spirit.

[07:00] Amanda: Totally.

[07:01] Marissa: Okay, so before we talk about the book, the first thing I'd like to hear from you is your origin story. How did you become a writer?

[07:11] Amanda: Sure. So I think it really started with diary keeping. Honestly, I kept a diary from the time I was about eight years old until I. Until college. Oh, wow. And I loved it. You know, I wrote in the diary all the time, and I think it really kind of helped me build my first person voice, because that's why I'm always writing from first person pov. And I really attribute that to just being so used to it from writing in diaries. And then by the time I was 16 or 17, I started writing fiction, started writing novels. Didn't really consider the possibility of being a professional author until I was in my late twenties. But once I started querying, I was kind of hooked. I'm not sure why, because querying is kind of terrible. But after I queried my first book, pain and rejection, you know, I just felt like this. It was kind of a rush of getting your work out in front of somebody. Even though there was, you know, the rejection and the negative aspects of putting your work out there, there was also the positive of feeling like, you know, people get to see what I'm doing.

[08:27] Marissa: I want to just quickly go back to the whole diary thing. Was your diary, like, always totally honest and like, here's my actual life? Or did it ever, like, skew into the realm of fiction.

[08:39] Amanda: You know, it was, it was always honest in the sense, you know, I didn't come up with stuff that hadn't happened. But I think that sometimes I felt like I had to paint myself in, like, a more positive light. My later years of diaries kind of rejected that, and, like, I'd be, like, dissing my poor, my previous self for lying and not being, you know, completely up my diaries. Like, every diary would be like going back to the years of the diaries before and being like, I was such a loser.

[09:13] Marissa: Oh, my gosh, that's so harsh.

[09:16] Amanda: But it also, you know, it helped me learn that skill of being honest with yourself, I think.

[09:24] Marissa: Yeah, I also. Cause I was a terrible diary keeper. Like, I would start one and write in it for, like, a couple weeks, and then I'd get bored. And then, like, you know, I've got all of these diaries from childhood that have, like, 20 pages filled, and then the rest is blanken. But I feel like another skill that it would help with is just consistency. Like, we're always told, like, to be a writer, you have to be consistent, and maybe that's every day. Maybe that's once a week, like, whatever works for you. But just that habit of continually writing is another thing that, that would really help with.

[10:00] Amanda: An interesting thing about that, too, is that once I started writing fiction more regularly and becoming more consistent with that, my diary keeping kind of dropped off.

[10:11] Marissa: Who's got time for that, right?

[10:14] Amanda: It was like a transition. It's like I learned those skills, you know, from keeping a regular diary, but then it sort of got replaced by fiction writing.

[10:23] Marissa: Yeah, no, that's interesting. Okay, so at some point in your twenties, you start to think, hey, it sounds like fun to be published manuscripts. Did you go through trying to get published?

[10:37] Amanda: Yeah. So my first book that I queried, I didn't get an agent on that one. I didn't even get any. I think I got 150 page request, and that was it. Which is why I think it's so funny that this was the experience that hooked me because it was not a positive experience. Like, it wasn't like I'd gotten all these, you know, full requests and things were looking up. It was kind of like I put my book out there and nothing happened. But I just had this feeling like, I can do better. I can do this again. So after that, I wrote another book and queried that one. That was kind of a long process because I ended up getting into pitch wars, which is a mentorship program that you take a little break from querying so you can work with an established author to workshop your book before you start sending it back out to more agents. So it ended up being, I think, almost a year that I was querying slash doing pitchforks for that book. And that is the book that got me an agent, my current agent, Laura Rennert, and that's also the book that I sold. It's my debut novel. So that's. At the time, it felt like a really long, arduous querying journey, but with more perspective and seeing how many amazing writers have to go through three or four or five books to get an agent, I feel like it was a very quick process. I feel like I was lucky.

[12:06] Marissa: Yeah, no. So it was your second, then?

[12:09] Amanda: Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[12:10] Marissa: No. That is fairly unusual. I asked this question to every author we talked to, so listeners who are here for every episode are like, yeah, you never hear that story. Yeah. But then, okay, so you get your agent, because I saw you did a timeline on your instagram, and they kind of outlined this process for you. And I feel like there was a long time between getting the agent and then selling it. Like, there was still a fairly long submission time, wasn't there?

[12:43] Amanda: I was on sub for almost two years.

[12:46] Marissa: Oh, my goodness. What was that like?

[12:50] Amanda: You know, again, it's one of those strange things because it was a very long process. And even, you know, to this day, I realized that two years on Saab is very long, and I don't know how I got through it exactly. But I also sold the first book that I went on sub with, so, you know, which is also a little bit unusual. Kind of lucky. So it was a really difficult process at the time, and it was weird sub, too, just because for part of it, I was on sub to adult editors because this book had started out as an adult novel, and then I was on sub to YA editors after I'd done a revision with my agent to age the book down. So it was kind of a bifurcated sub where I had these different, you know, subbing to adult and YA editors, especially in the fantasy genre, is pretty different, especially because there are so few editors in adult, relatively. So I had, you know, like ten or twelve editors, I think, that I submitted to for adult, and then there was like 30 for YA or something like that. And then part of my YA sub process was doing a revise and resubmit with the editor I ended up being acquired by, and that was probably a process of two or three months near the end.

[14:20] Marissa: Yeah. So was the decision to age it down to ya. Was that based on the feedback that you were getting from, from the adult editors?

[14:28] Amanda: It was. And so this book was in a bit of a weird position to begin with, which is just generally true of most of what I write, because I write what probably be called new adults really is very established age category, at least not yet. But it's really, you know, I write books about people who are in their late teens or early twenties. And so I feel like it could have gone either way. Like, it could have been a YA novel or it could have been adult. And I ended up initially it had started that I had been looking at the adult market, and then it shifted towards ya just because the feedback we were getting from editors was, we think this would work better as ya. It's a story of self discovery and coming of age and figuring out what you want to do with your life or what your worth is. And it seemed to fit better in that YA category.

[15:27] Marissa: Mm hmm. No, I totally, I'm always fascinated by this because I've been hearing this story a lot lately, authors who are like, in that, that new adult, you know, range.

[15:40] Amanda: Yeah.

[15:41] Marissa: Makes so much sense for a writer and a reader. Like, you can see how there's certain stories that just fit just a little older than ya, but not quite full on adult yet.

[15:53] Amanda: Yeah.

[15:54] Marissa: But the market just doesn't know what to do with them. And I feel like a lot of us are starting to get frustrated with, like, why is this hard? You just throw up some more shelves, like in Barnes and noble. Why. Why are we confused about it?

[16:07] Amanda: Well, and I think that also, you know, I think that it could work as an adult, you know, age category story. But I think one of the things about age categories is they just have, they have their own vibes. And for ya, there's really a lot of the themes that would appeal to teenagers that might also appeal to adults. Those themes are just considered pretty strictly ya. So if you're writing about those themes, you're writing a coming of age story. The adult market is not as interested in that, even though you could still have, you know, adults who are trying to figure out what they want to do with their lives.

[16:46] Marissa: Yeah, no, and then you end up with these, like, descriptions where it's like, oh, this is young ya, or this is ya. And that's fine. Like, because I think it's important for readers to kind of know what they're getting. Right. But I also think it can be confusing. I don't know. It's fine. It's fine. Just, we're all just trying to write what we want to write, and I hope people are going to find it.

[17:07] Amanda: Right, exactly. I think that's one of the harder parts about going from being a, you know, a writer who just is writing what you love to being a professional is that you have to have different considerations. You have to be thinking about where is this going to go on the shelves. And, yeah, one of the things that was craziest to me to learn was just through going through the process of being a debut author, and then the different kind of, like, trade reviews that you get. Like, you get reviewed by different places if you're young adult versus adulthood, or there are different, you know, lists or different, just whole sorts of different attention that you get based on your age category, which is not something I had really considered when I was writing or even I was deciding if we wanted to age it down. So, yeah, it's definitely different than just thinking about what you like and writing that.

[18:03] Marissa: Yeah, no, and I think, like, deciding what you like in writing that, like, that's step one. But at some point, yes, if you're wanting to build a career, it does not hurt to give a little bit more thought to placement and market and audience and all of these things. But that can also be really frustrating because sometimes the market just isn't ready for something. Or there's a project that, I mean, you hear it all the time, where editors just love a project and would love to edit it and publish it, but they throw up their hands. I don't know what to do with it. And that's. That's heartbreaking when you hear those.

[18:44] Amanda: It is. Yeah. It is very sad, especially because I know just so many really talented writers. I know one writer who has had her books go to acquisitions, I think, like, ten times.

[18:56] Marissa: Oh, wow.

[18:57] Amanda: And every time it's been an editor who just loves the book, and then the acquisitions team is saying, well, we're just not quite sure what to do with this. Oh, it's a very, I think, a frustrating process. And then just as a witness to it, it's so sad to think of how much joy these books could be bringing to people, but it's just not as easy as. It's a really good book. So let's publish it.

[19:26] Marissa: Yeah. Well, and it's ironic, too, because as discouraging as that is, it's so often that a book will come out on the market that people are like, this is not like anything else, and suddenly it's a best seller, and suddenly now you've got the copycats coming and like, oh, I want to try to do that. And like, sometimes you just want to shake the publishers and like, just give it a chance.

[19:50] Amanda: Yes. Yes.

[19:51] Marissa: Let's talk about now, your debut book. Someone gave it a chance and it's out in the world now. Would you tell listeners what is divine mortals about?

[20:03] Amanda: Sure. So it's a book about a young woman who has the ability to name people soulmates. It's a power given to her by her patron God, the crow God of love. And she is also agoraphobic. She has a lot of trauma around having accidentally killed her brother when she was younger. She does not like doing things or going places, so she mostly stays in her house and does these soulmate readings on people. But then one of the king's advisors comes to her and says that he wants her to do a soulmate reading on the king so they can find a wife for him, a new queen. And she goes to do this reading and she finds out that it is her. She is his soulmate, and she's really not interested in a royal marriage. So it's the story of how she tries to get out of it and some of the bigger implications that she ends up learning about what's really going on at this castle.

[21:02] Marissa: Okay. I try not to pick favorites among our podcast guests, but I have to say this is one of my favorite books that I have read this year.

[21:12] Amanda: Well, thank you.

[21:13] Marissa: I absolutely loved it. I love the premise. I love the protagonist.

[21:20] Amanda: Yes.

[21:21] Marissa: He was so great. The romance is good. And one of the things that really surprised me about this book is that it is unusual for me to read a book where I simply have no idea where the author is going with this. And there were a number of times where I was like, I I don't know. I've got no predictions. I've got no guesses. I don't know where this is heading. And that does not happen very often. So bravo. I absolutely adored this.

[21:50] Amanda: Well, thank you. Yeah, my editor was saying something. She was giving an interview and said something about how she really likes books that are really hard to describe what's happening. And I was like, yeah, that tracks.

[22:05] Marissa: Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like, because I remember reading the description when this book was pitched for the podcast, or maybe I can't even remember if it was pitched to us or if I reached out to you. Does it not matter? I remember seeing the description and thinking, okay, a girl that can pick soul or can decide soulmates, but then she's matched with the king, but she doesn't want to be like, that's such a kind of a simple premise, but it catches you. And I loved that. And then I started reading it and it was just like, it is so much more than this simple, like soulmate fantasy romance. And it's really, really cleverly done.

[22:44] Amanda: Well, thank you. I hope that that is overall going to be a good thing. You know, I, I do think it's, it's tricky from a marketing perspective because you do want to have that kind of simple like romance forward premise that is easy to pitch or attractive. But then there, the actual plot of the book just is harder to capture in.

[23:11] Marissa: No, there's like, there's this whole murder mystery element. There's like this cult, this end of the world cult stuff going on. There's like a whole other like, world where the gods live. I mean, there's, it's, it's really quite complex. 

[ADVERTISEMENTS] Hey, writers, amplify marketing services has a new YouTube video course focused entirely on teaching authors what they need to know about book marketing. Their publisher clients encouraged amplify to make this new course and even helped shape the content to ensure it would contain everything that publishers wish their authors knew. Each of the ten free sessions unpacks a different aspect of the book business, including how to decide between traditional and self publishing, how to make your book proposal pop, best practices for choosing a title and subtitle what publishers expect from you when it comes to marketing your book, and so much more. The author advantage series includes insights for first time authors, New York Times bestselling authors, and everyone in between. Start session one today@amplifymarketers.com. authors do you want an encouraging writing community with critique partners twice a month? Masterclasses, opportunities to be in an anthology or connect with literary agents, valuable publishing advice, and more. Then you have to check out the Red Herring Society. It's a monthly mastermind group hosted by savvy bestselling authors Mary Weber and CJ Redwine. And by using code happywriteredherringwriters.com comma, you can try the first month for free and start elevating your career today. Again, that's code happywriter@redherringwriters.com. dot 

Marissa: so let's talk world building. For starters, what was your process? Do you enjoy world building? Do you have maps? Do you have inspiration boards? Like, how did you go about it?

[25:31] Amanda: I think I'm a very aesthetics forward world builder. I like to think of what I, what I would like it to look like or feel like I really wanted to have some oceanic vibes with this one. The whole concept of the flood, which is the God's underwater realm, is something that kind of comes just from, like, some daydreaming I did as a child, thinking about, you know, a kingdom underneath a bay and what kind of creatures or weird things might live there. And, you know, I know it's pretty basic, or I guess you could say classic. Let's go with classic. But the whole royal court setting is something that I really love, so I knew I wanted to write a story that involved royal intrigue and court politics, and so then I had to build that setting so that the politics could happen in it.

[26:32] Marissa: Do you, like, know a lot more about this world than was featured in the book, or are you kind of a discovery writer where you are figuring it out as you go?

[26:44] Amanda: Actually, you know, kind of both, because as when I'm drafting, I'm really a discovery writer. I'm just going with my heart and see what happens. And when I'm adding in world building elements, it's really kind of in the moment, you know, like, what do I want to add right now that I think will be compelling or that I think will add more atmosphere? But then after I'm done with the first draft, I do go back and do a lot of filling in the gaps and a lot of world building that never actually makes it into the book. I want to feel like I understand the world, even if I'm not going to explain every single thing about it to the reader. So there is a lot about the world that is just simply not in the book or in the sequel. It's just in a word document on my computer.

[27:35] Marissa: Okay, you just mentioned sequel, and I'm wondering because it kind of feels like this is one of those books where now we're going to be opening up to so much more of the world in the next installment. Like, does it get much, much bigger, much grander?

[27:52] Amanda: It does. And it actually will involve Mona going some other places.

[27:59] Marissa: Mona's gonna leave the castle.

[28:01] Amanda: He will.

[28:04] Marissa: I'll believe it when I see it.

[28:08] Amanda: So it was definitely. Yeah, the second book. So it's a duology. So this is the series ender is the second book. There's a lot more world building to that one because it involves the setting is expanded, and then there's also a lot more of the magic system that gets explored, too.

[28:29] Marissa: So talk a little bit about planning it as a duology. Did you always kind of have an idea of where the series was heading to?

[28:37] Amanda: No.

[28:38] Marissa: No. Okay. But did you know it was going to be a duology? How did you make that decision?

[28:44] Amanda: So, initially, after I had drafted the first book, I knew that I was going to need more than one book, and it wasn't even necessarily the plot. You know, I think if I was forced to, I could have found a way to wrap up the plot in one book. It was more of a character development thing. I didn't think that I could take Mona from where she started to where I wanted her to go in one book. Yeah, no, I see.

[29:09] Marissa: Yeah.

[29:10] Amanda: And so I had had, at the end of the book, the first book left it open for a lot more to happen, and I did not have a really strong grasp of where I wanted to take it. But I feel silly saying it now. But I was just like, I'm sure I'll figure it out. So I just kind of.

[29:34] Marissa: And what has that been going for you? Because at the end of book one, it's very doomsday. Like, everything's going to hell. Can't stop it.

[29:43] Amanda: So this is another thing about how I. How I write that I'm not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but I really enjoy it. I love setting up impossible problems that I don't know how to solve, and, because then you have to get a like or your characters have to get really creative. And one of my favorite things about writing the second book in the duology was I given them several impossible problems, and then I just kind of had to figure out a way that would be believable, that they could work these things out. And I had a lot of fun with that. I think that it's more fun to me to have these problems set up that I'm not sure how I'm going to solve them, then to kind of, like, start with a solution and then try to implement it. I just. I think that probably, like, 50% of the way through the second book, I still wasn't exactly sure how they solve these problems.

[30:44] Marissa: So how do you go about problem solving? Like, do you. Are you a brainstormer? Do you just like, well, I'll just keep writing until something clicks, or do you. What do you do?

[30:56] Amanda: So I think that one of the pieces of advice that I got it was actually from a book that was about playing, like, tabletop rpg's. So it was kind of different from the writing sphere. But I really liked this advice was to do what's obvious. So to have my characters, like, if they were, you know, trying to really put myself in their situation and be like, what would they try next? Like, what would they think of with the information that they have? Not as, like, me, as the writer who knows everything about the world and where I want to end up, just like, what would be the logical next step for them to try? And once I know that, then I can kind of answer, well, what information or what events could happen that would come from that, that could help move towards a resolution. So I kind of start with, yeah. What I want them to be doing, and then from there, go with, how does that help solve the problem?

[32:00] Marissa: Mm hmm. Were there times in writing book two when you thought back to book one and, like, wanted to go back in time and shake yourself?

[32:09] Amanda: No, I actually. One of the things that I like about not being as much of a planner is the fact that when I have a, like, when I encounter some sort of problem and I don't know how to solve it and I don't set anything up for myself, I can go back and look at what I did in book one and see if there are any threads that I, like, unintentionally introduced that I can now use. And that's how I solved most of the problems in book two is going back to book one and just looking at kind of, like, what breadcrumbs I left myself that I didn't realize I was leaving at the time.

[32:48] Marissa: Yeah.

[32:49] Amanda: And using them to resolve the second half of the story.

[32:54] Marissa: No, that's actually a really fantastic tip. I know there have been times when I've been feeling really stuck, and so I'll just, like, make a list of, like, what. What do I have in the story that I can use? Like, what tools are available, what settings have we been to or not been to? And just, like, make lists of things until it kind of jars something loose.

[33:16] Amanda: Right. Yeah. That's how I wrote a lot of the second book. It was just looking at what happened in the first book and what characters I had to work with. I actually kind of incredible that one of the characters who ends up being really important in the second book was someone who I introduced a little bit later in the writing process. And initially, they had died at the end of the first book, and my editor was like, well, why is this person dying? This doesn't really make sense. And I was like, yeah, you know what? You're right. They don't have to die. And then they became a huge character in the second book.

[33:52] Marissa: Oh, I love that.

[33:54] Amanda: A lot of stuff that just, you know, whatever I ended up with. What's the first book, I was like, how am I gonna use what I have to make, you know, to finish the rest of the story?

[34:06] Marissa: Yeah. And it kind of. It requires a little bit of trust in yourself, in your intuition sometimes to be like, no, no, the pieces are there. I may not know how they fit together yet, but I have faith that I will figure it out.

[34:21] Amanda: I do think that's such a huge thing for being a writer, is being able to trust yourself. And if you can really lean into that, I think you'll find that, like, you set up a lot of stuff for yourself, and it's all there if, you know, if you decide to look for it. I think that it sometimes can be hard to feel like, you know, everybody has that imposter syndrome. They feel like, I don't know if I'm good enough. I don't know if I did a good enough job with what I already have. But if you really lean into believing that you did what needed to be done and just look to your past, and, I don't know, there's something about trusting yourself that makes it even more satisfying when you come up with the solution.

[35:09] Marissa: Yeah, yeah. No. Because then you can be like, good job, brain. I knew you had it in you.

[35:14] Amanda: Yeah.

[35:16] Marissa: I'll never doubt you again. Except you, for the next book. Okay. I want to talk about characterization, because you mentioned that part of the reason it felt like it had to be two books was to allow time for Mona, our protagonist, to fully develop and have a complete character arc, which makes so much sense, because, like I said, I love this character. She's so funny. She's so clever, she's so quirky, but she's also very flawed. Like, she has got a lot to work through.

[35:51] Amanda: Right.

[35:52] Marissa: So did you tell me about your character building process?

[35:58] Amanda: Yeah. So I think that for the character building side of things, I was actually a lot more. Like, I had a lot more planned out, you know, in terms of just where I wanted her to go, because I did know, you know, she starts the book, she hasn't left the house in ten years, and she's severely agoraphobic. And I knew that I wanted to get her to a place where she was coming to terms with how she could live a full life, even given these limitations that she had. So I didn't want it to be a thing where she ends the story. Like, I'm cured now. I can go outside whenever I want. It was. I wanted it to be a journey of figuring out how to live with limitations in a way that's really satisfying. And I think in some ways, it's a little bit harder because, you know, there's no magic cure. There's nothing that you can make quick and easy. You kind of have to let the character grow into it. And I knew that I wanted to put her in some situations that would make her uncomfortable and kind of explore a little bit about, like, the difference between bad uncomfortable and good uncomfortable and how to tell the difference and how to know when you're. When you're letting your limitations keep you from doing the things you want to do versus when you're respecting your limitations and your own mental health. And so I think it's, since it's just such a complicated topic that it's like, most people take a lifetime of therapy to figure out. I knew I wanted to spread it over a couple of books to get her to a place where she's starting to have a little bit more sympathy for herself and a little bit more respect for herself despite her flaws.

[38:06] Marissa: Yeah. Did she come to you relatively fully formed, or was she a character that required, you know, multiple drafts exploration, developing her voice?

[38:22] Amanda: Her voice came pretty quickly. That that was established pretty early on and did not really change. I do think some of the things that required more development were, like, her confidence level, because she has a, she has a very different kind of internal level of confidence versus what she tries to portray to the world, and so striking that balance between, you know, she's not a person who's timid or who's, who comes off as meek or anything like that, but she does have, you know, a lot of these self competence issues. She doesn't. She doesn't really believe in herself. She doesn't like herself. And so that was a balance that I had to work. I had to tinker a little bit to get it to feel natural.

[39:12] Marissa: It was just like looking at the clock and like, oh, we don't have much time. Where else? What else do I want to talk about? So, on a similar note, this is one of those books that's got really high highs and really low lows. There's a lot of trauma, a lot of tragedy, a heartbreak, but it's also so funny. So, like, is that, is incorporating humor something that is really important to you or something that you think very much about, or does it kind of, did it just kind of naturally happen? Because this character is so funny, you.

[39:51] Amanda: Know, it's something that I think I started doing, you know, when, when I first started writing, just to entertain myself and to make, you know, what I like, when I was writing this book, I was, in a lot of ways, trying to make myself feel better and, like, you know, to cheer myself up. But that kind of came in two different flavors for me. You know, there was, like, exploring trauma and how to be gentle with yourself and how to embrace your limitations and to not feel guilt and shame around that. But there's also the element of cheering myself up by just being a dork and saying things that I thought were really funny. So they kind of naturally came together to me. They both made me feel better, so that's why I wrote them together.

[40:41] Marissa: Yeah. Sometimes we have to remember that we are our first readers and, like, yeah, what can I do today that I'm going to enjoy and have fun?

[40:49] Amanda: Exactly.

[40:50] Marissa: Okay. I really. I wanted to talk about romance, but I know that we're, like, running out of time here. So just, like, for the record, love him. Love him also, like, it's such a great foil for Mona.

[41:08] Amanda: Yes.

[41:10] Marissa: How much did you enjoy writing? Actually, I can't even know. Is that even a spoiler? Like, I don't even know if we can talk about the romance that much because it kind of is a spoiler.

[41:20] Amanda: This is another thing about, you know, pitching this book that because I felt, you know, from my perspective, when you reach, like, the first chapter, it's pretty obvious to me who the love interest is. But from the pitch of the book, you know, it's not. It's not really clear. And so it. It does seem kind of like something that is a surprise. But I didn't. I didn't really think of it that way just because it's so upfront. You know, their. Their dynamic is just so obviously a romantic one.

[41:57] Marissa: But it does. It does kind of. It's one of those things and one of those reasons why I struggled to predict where the book was going, because it keeps you guessing and you think, like, God, I like this guy and she likes this guy and, like, he's got to be the love interest. But then also, I was kind of like, but I don't know, maybe there's something I'm missing. Maybe there's going to be, you know, so it kind of plays to that whole, like, the big question mark. Okay. Wonderful. Loved it. Are you ready for the bonus round?

[42:27] Amanda: Let's go.

[42:29] Marissa: What book makes you happy?

[42:33] Amanda: Well, I personally love all books by Anita Kelly. They're a contemporary romance writer. Actually, the book that came out this year is how you get the girl. And their books have the same effect on my brain as, like, hours of therapy. They're just so sweet and tender and really emotional, but also just really funny and upbeat. And I always feel so much better when I'm reading an Anita Kelly book.

[43:06] Marissa: What are you working on next?

[43:09] Amanda: I actually have two manuscripts right now that I'm working on, and I'm not really sure which one is going to be the next book, but they're both, they're both new adult, to nobody's surprise. Both fantasy.

[43:24] Marissa: You didn't learn that lesson from the last one?

[43:27] Amanda: I am incapable of learning lessons, but I really love them both. And I, they're both, you know, romantic y, got some wizards, got some magic, some mentorships. I really love writing mentor characters. I don't know why. So I'm very excited about both.

[43:48] Marissa: Well, maybe by the time you're done writing them, the publishing market will have figured out new adult.

[43:55] Amanda: Fingers crossed.

[43:57] Marissa: Lastly, where can people find you?

[43:59] Amanda: So I am on Instagram Elander amanda. Also sometimes on Twitter under the same name. And I have a website, amandahellender.com, and I hopefully am very easy to contact her for anybody who would like to ask me any questions or anything like that.

[44:24] Marissa: Awesome. Amanda, thank you for joining me.

[44:27] Amanda: Yes, thank you so much.

[44:29] Marissa: Readers, definitely check out divine mortals. It is out. Now, of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore, but if you don't have one, you can check out our affiliate store@bookshop.org, shop Marissa Meyer next week, I'm going to be chatting with author illustrator Harry Connor about their Jane Austen inspired graphic novel, I shall never fall in love. Please leave us a review and follow us on Instagram happywriterpodcast. And dont forget to check our merchandise on Etsy. Until next time, stay inspired, keep writing, and whatever life throws at you today, I hope that now youre feeling a little bit happier.