Worldbuilding & Romance in Dystopian Sci-Fi with Jill Tew - The Dividing Sky

Marissa chats with Jill Tew about her debut dystopian romance, THE DIVIDING SKY. Also discussed in this episode: making the transition from the corporate world to writing sci-fi inspired by the corporate world, sci-fi worldbuilding, sci-fi as a cautionary tale (“if this goes on”), plotting out romance to make it feel organic, the irony of promoting a book about taking time and not getting caught up in social media—on social media, Jill’s Afronauts podcast, and so much more!

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Transcript

[00:10] Marissa: Hello and welcome to the Happy writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you so much for joining me. One thing I am beyond static about is that when this episode goes live, it will be the day before. Let it glow comes out. That's right, let it glow will be in bookstores tomorrow. If you haven't heard about it yet, let it glow is the book that I co wrote with Joanne Levy. You might recognize her as my second in command here on the podcast. It is my first middle grade and it's being pitched as like the parent trap meets a Hallmark holiday movie. It's just holiday joy from start to finish about identical twins who were separated at birth and discover each other around the holiday season and decide to swap homes for the holidays. So one gets to celebrate Hanukkah for the first time and one gets to learn all about Christmas. And it was so much fun to write. We had such a blast. And I can't believe it's finally coming out tomorrow, quote unquote, because I'm obviously recording this a couple of weeks in advance. Either way, it's almost here. I can't wait. I hope you will check it out. Please go grab a copy. Maybe for yourself, maybe for the young reader in your life or anyone that you just feel could use some holiday joy. I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. She is a recovering business school graduate who enjoys belting show tunes on the way to target and baking in her spare time. She is also a co host of Afronauts podcast, which provides writing tips and community for black aspiring speculative fiction writers. Her debut novel, the Dividing sky, came out earlier this month. Please welcome Jill Tu.

[02:15] Jill: Thank you so much for having me.

[02:17] Marissa: Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to talk to you. And congratulations because the book is out now. It is out, like behind schedule, ahead of schedule. I don't know how you'd say that, but it is officially in the world even as of this conversation. And are you just over the moon? Are you glad to be through launch week? How are you feeling?

[02:39] Jill: I'm excited. I feel like it's a little bit like having a child and every phase brings, you know, the end of the last phases, challenges, but also new ones, right? So now that the book is out, I feel like I'm excited for readers to have read the book and engage with them, but that's a whole new set of things to be thinking about and things to get excited for.

[02:59] Marissa: Yeah, no, for sure. How did you, what did you do on launch day? How did you celebrate?

[03:05] Jill: Yeah. So it actually ended up being the case that my big launch event was the night before. So I got to do a big Q and a with a dear author friend of mine who lives here in Atlanta and had a bunch of friends come out this venue for drinks and just celebration. And then the next day was kind of chill. I went to a few bookstores and did a bunch of responding on social media, as one does, but. And then. Oh, and then I went to. I went to Shake Shack. There's a shake shack here in Atlanta. I feel like my launch, that was kind of like a wedding. Like, it was all a blur. Like 3 hours later, it was then I didn't eat a single thing, and I went home, and I was just, you know, on adrenaline. It's like, so buzzed, and I just couldn't eat. And so I dove around signing books on Tuesday, and then I went to shake shack and, like, housed a double cheeseburger. And it was great.

[03:53] Marissa: I love that. That is so relatable. And I don't, that doesn't really go away. Like, launch day, your debut, is a huge moment, and I completely agree that it does have that kind of wedding feel where it's just all encompassing for that 24 hours. But even for me, like, to this day, after I do a book event, I'm always just, like, starving and like, okay, here's the nearest fast food I can find.

[04:18] Jill: Exactly. Exactly.

[04:20] Marissa: Okay, so this is your debut novel. Congratulations.

[04:25] Jill: Thank you.

[04:26] Marissa: Would you tell us the first thing I always want to know, what is your origin story? How did you get here to being a published author?

[04:36] Jill: Yeah. So I always loved storytelling as a kid. I loved writing, and I loved kind of wordplay. My favorite book growing up was my rhyming dictionary. I would say it was so good. And I would make up little poems or change the words of songs and make up all these little silly things. I just love kind of what words could do and how they had the power to make people feel things or make them laugh. I also loved other forms of storytelling, so, like musicals, video games. I was a big fan fiction reader. I think you had Julian Winters on a few weeks ago, and I was like, yep. Yeah. Fanfiction to author pipeline is very real.

[05:13] Marissa: So real, so common, so real.

[05:17] Jill: And I just love stories. And I was good at it. I really enjoyed it all through high school. And then when it came time to think about college, my parents were kind of like, you know, it's time to kind of be more practical. And so I went the practical route. I went and got an undergraduate business degree that barely had any room to breathe for, like, a creative minor, let alone like, a separate degree, and graduated from that and then got a series of, very, well, my first job was very corporate, and then I went to kind of a high intensity, time, time intensive startup environment, and then I went to a time intensive nonprofit environment. And so I just kept burning myself out, you know, one job after another, and thought I was on the right track. You know, I was jumping through hoops, I was getting promoted. I was doing really well, and that was kind of what I was going to do. I was going to be practical and provide for myself and my family.

[06:07] Marissa: And I sense a bus coming up at some point.

[06:10] Jill: Yes, here we go. Yes, there's a pivot. There's a pivot. So the startup job I was at, this was, yeah, 2014 or so. Some friends decided that we should go see a movie after work. And so we went from the office to the movie theater. This was in Denver, and the movie was divergent. And walking home from that theater, I felt a spark that I hadn't felt in years. And I remembered all the Sci-Fi stories and shows that I loved growing up. I grew up with, like, farscape and battle star Galactica and all these other shows, and I had this epiphany of just like, I want to do this. I want to make people feel this way. I want to feel this way. I want to tear apart these stories and figure out what makes them tick, and I want to tell stories. I don't want to make spreadsheets anymore.

[06:57] Marissa: Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine why a person would, you know, I mean.

[07:02] Jill: I love a good spreadsheet. I use spreadsheets for my revisions all the time. Like, spreadsheets are great, but in service of something that kind of made me feel more fulfilled. So, yeah, I went home that night and I began working on plotting out the story that ended up getting me my agent, like, seven years later. And I guess, oh, wow.

[07:17] Marissa: So the first book that you started working on that point was the dividing sky?

[07:22] Jill: It was not, no. So I got my agent with another story that was an adult parallel universes story that I still love. I think it would need some upgrading, I think, to go out on sub again, but, yeah, I revised that one or drafted it for seven years and revised it for a year and then ended up querying and got an agent. So, yeah, and then that, you know, after I got my agent, Gennisantian, who's fantastic, we were on sub with that one. And while we were on sub, I wrote what ended up being the dividing sky.

[07:49] Marissa: Okay, I'm trying to keep the timeline straight here. So for seven years you worked on this one book.

[07:55] Jill: I did. I mean, I had, you know, I had other jobs. I had two babies. I moved houses. You know, like, you know, life gets in the way. I think I quit, like, at least a dozen times. I was like, this is not a good use of anybody's time. You know, it's never going to be anything. And then I think I was like eight months pregnant with my youngest and I decided that I was going to quit. I was like, I'm done. And then my husband was like, yeah, sure, okay. Yeah. And I let it sit for like three weeks, and then I couldn't stop thinking about the story and I couldn't stop thinking about, you know, finishing it and what would happen if I finished it. And so I decided that if I was going to unquit, I was going to unquit for the last time. Right. So, like, either I was going to quit and never pick it back up because it's not a good use of my time if it's not going anywhere or I'm going to pick it back up and keep at it because it's not a good use of my time if it's not going anywhere. And so I decided to unquit and said, this is it. I'm going to the finish line. And I think I finished that manuscript when my youngest was like two or three months old. I just would do a page at a time at 03:00 a.m. when she was nursing. And then I just got it done and it was horrible at the end. It made no sense. Read the sleep deprived person wrote it because the sleep deprived person did write it.

[09:10] Marissa: Some of our best ideas come when we're sleep deprived.

[09:13] Jill: Yeah. There was some creative inspiration there for sure, but the prose and the grammar in particular wasn't great. Sure, but it was done.

[09:23] Marissa: Yeah, yeah. So you were finally all in at that point, it sounds like.

[09:28] Jill: Yeah, exactly.

[09:29] Marissa: So then you queried that one. You got an agent. It goes on submission, but it never sold.

[09:35] Jill: Thats right. Yeah. It was on submission for about a year before. I think we just moved on by that point. We had sold the dividing sky, that one. So we went on submission with that first book in January of 2022. And I drafted the biting sky that spring. And then we went on sub with the biting sky in August, and then that sold in five or six weeks. And so from that point.

[09:55] Marissa: Hold on, because your first book took seven years. How did you divide?

[10:01] Jill: It's crazy. I drafted that book in, like, 90 days, and it was dual POv, which is hard to do. Like, it just kind of, like, fit together, I think. I don't know. You know when you've been, like, ruminating on an idea without even realizing it? And I think it had just been kind of percolating in the back of my mind. And then I sat down to write and it just kind of poured out of me over, like, a handful of months. It was wild.

[10:20] Marissa: Oh, my gosh, I love that. And obviously, you still had kids. Were you also working at the time?

[10:26] Jill: I was not. You know, we had the pandemic, and I had done a lot of freelance consulting stuff, and so I was like, well, I'll take a step back and just write and hang out with them. So.

[10:36] Marissa: Yeah, yeah. One of those few things the pandemic was good for.

[10:41] Jill: Yes. Taking a step back, for sure. Yes.

[10:43] Marissa: So for someone who, like, maybe is in the same boat where they've been working on something for so long, but they feel like it's never going to happen or it's a waste of their time or, like, why am I even bothering with this? Like, what advice would you give them?

[10:59] Jill: Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I always kind of felt like the story had relevance and that I wanted to finish it because I felt like it was a good story for the market. I think there are lots of people who start stories and then the market shifts on them. Then they wonder if they should even keep going. And my advice would be, if nothing else, you kind of learn something new about yourself. Right. It's kind of like pushing yourself in an extreme sport. I feel like it's a test of endurance. It's a test of kind of what you're made of, and it's worth it to finish just for the sake of finishing. I think even if that particular story kind of misses its moment, the market always comes back around. So I have a lot of friends and early writers who have stopped working on something because they feel like they missed the timing. And I think that is. That's not a reason to stop. I think you should keep going if you're still passionate about the idea. I think, don't worry about what the market's doing. Just finish for the sake of finishing because I think it changes your brain chemistry in an interesting way.

[11:52] Marissa: Yeah, no, I understand that. And also, like, if you never finish anything, then you never learn how to finish something, how to write that big climax, how to write the resolution. Those are really important parts of the craft.

[12:03] Jill: Yeah. And how to revise. How to revise a complete manuscript. Yeah.

[12:08] Marissa: And it is not uncommon for us talking to authors here on this podcast that you hear, like, well, I wrote this twelve years ago, but I missed the vampire trend or the distillery or whatever. But, hey, guess what? It's back again. Exactly.

[12:23] Jill: Exactly. You never know.

[12:25] Marissa: Okay, so speaking of dystopian trends, I love that divergent played a role in your origin story, right?

[12:33] Jill: Isn't that crazy?

[12:35] Marissa: Your debut novel is very. Are you calling it dystopian? It's obviously sci-Fi, but, like, where do you put it? Under the Sci-Fi umbrella?

[12:42] Jill: Yeah, definitely dystopian. When we were. When we first sold it, I think dystopian was still kind of a dirty word. And so we were calling it a near future Sci-Fi for a while. And then one day I looked up and it was like, okay to use the d word again. And so then we started calling.

[12:56] Marissa: The market is so weird.

[12:58] Jill: Yeah.

[12:59] Marissa: Okay, so here, dividing sky. A new dystopian back for people who really missed. Dystopian.

[13:05] Jill: Yeah.

[13:06] Marissa: Tell people, what is the dividing sky about?

[13:09] Jill: Yeah. So the dividing sky is set in a world that I lovingly refer to as Jeff Bezos fever dream.

[13:19] Marissa: I hear it. Oh, my gosh.

[13:22] Jill: It's like a near future hyper capitalist Boston, where everybody works for this company called Life Corp. And you have the kind of white collar upper class workers who do a lot of computer work at their desks in their homes, and they're so busy working that they actually outsource parts of their lives to other people in lower classes called proxies. Proxies have neurocheps in their brain that modify them so that they can live parts of the upper class people's lives for them. So a proxy might, you know, raise your kids, deliver your groceries, do that sort of thing. But a proxy could also go on a date on your behalf. So you send your proxy and your husband's proxy out on a date, they come back and let you know how the date went.

[14:03] Marissa: So romantic.

[14:04] Jill: So romantic. You know? But at least you can keep working, which is all anybody cares about. Right? And our main character, Liv, is an emo proxy. Her job is to have emotional experiences, reading books, watching movies, looking at blades of grass blowing in the wind, or looking at the sunset, and then have emotions about those things and then transfer that emotional memory to her clients. She ends up dealing some of these memories illegally to other lower class people just to make a buck. And that puts her on the radar of the life corps kind of law enforcement team. And so this rookie named Adrian is on the lookout for her, and he ends up tracking her down to the woods outside of the metro's borders, outside of this big city's borders where she's not really supposed to go. But when he finds her there, she has actually wiped all of her memories, and she doesn't remember anything about life corp or him or the crimes she committed. And he finds himself really torn about whether or not he can bring her in for crimes he doesn't remember committing. And the story kind of goes from there, right? So romance develops, revolution develops, and it's great.

[15:12] Marissa: Romance and revolution, that's what we're all about. All right, let's talk world building. Because it was so fun and nostalgic for me, personally, to be back in this high Sci-Fi world. Of course, I started with the lunar chronicles in my career a long time ago and have been kind of in more fantasy since then. And reading this book, it reminded me how much I love all of these plays on just cool technology. Um, we've got androids.

[15:44] Jill: We've.

[15:45] Marissa: I just. I just loved what you did with the world building. And now, also, knowing your backstory, I have to wonder how much of the whole, like, life core and how everything is built around this idea of productivity, like, how much that was inspired by your life in a corporate world before you became a writer. So, anyway, so just tell me a little bit about how you approached the world.

[16:10] Jill: Yeah. I mean, 100%. So when I was working those jobs, I would outsource my groceries or my laundry service or my pet care, and I felt like I never had enough time for everything. But the time that I saved getting those things outsourced, I just filled it with more work. Right now I have an extra hour to keep working.

[16:28] Marissa: It's so relatable.

[16:30] Jill: It's like, yeah, and I think we all do this. I'm just like, now I can get that thing done. And I was thinking about a world in the future where the technology advances to the point where you can outsource literally anything, right? At what point does anybody stand up and say, actually, enough is enough? So that's where the idea came from, this idea that can we fast forward through all these different advancements and things that we're already thinking about, like neurochips and stuff and see what they would be used for, given the values that we have in today's society. So, yeah, all the different kinds of proxies and the things that they can do, the ways that they save people time. That was totally just borne. Bye. What is already happening?

[17:10] Marissa: Yeah, no, and that's true, because I feel like a lot of things in this world, they're far fetched in this futuristic way, but not really. It kind of feels like a warning story in some ways. Like, okay, people, we're heading this direction. At what point do we pull back?

[17:30] Jill: Totally. I mean, I think, who is it? Is it Heidlein or Asimov who said, like, that one of the genres of science fiction stories is, like, if this goes on, right? So it's like, if this in society, like, keeps going, here's what could happen. And it's funny you say that when I talk about Liv's job and how she, like, reads books and watches movies for her clients, half the time, people are like, oh, I need one of those. And it's like, no, like, you're not supposed to admire. You're not supposed to want one of those. Yeah, it's like, no, no, no. So that drive is absolutely there. Just like, there's not enough time. There's all the things I want to do, you know, if I could just pay somebody, I'd be better off for it.

[18:06] Marissa: Yeah, no, that's so hilarious. And that's so real to our society. Like that. That's where so many people first go. It's like, oh, I would hire that person. Oh, I could use that service. Yeah, maybe what we should think is like, huh, I would also like to read books. How can I rearrange my lifestyle to accomplish.

[18:26] Jill: Exactly. Exactly.

[18:28] Marissa: And then, okay, so the proxies, obviously, it makes so much sense that you were inspired by real life services that people do pay for. Outsourcing the house cleaning, outsourcing the pet care these days, uber eats, or how you can have people run errands for you. All of this thing is such a big part of our current capitalistic society, but you pushed it so much further. Did you sit and brainstorm? Like, huh, what are some other random things that I could have people doing for people? Or did it just pop into your head? How did you kind of come about with the various proxy ideas?

[19:04] Jill: Yeah, I think probably half of them were things that I already saw happening. Like you said, we have uber eats. We have, like, handy for repair stuff, like that kind of thing. And then I really wanted to just push it. What are the other things that we never feel like we have enough time for. At the heart of it, a lot of it was, like, spending time with each other. And I think that I'm totally guilty of, you know, when I was working in those corporate jobs, my husband and I would just, like, sit on the couch, like, each on our laptops.

[19:28] Marissa: Right.

[19:28] Jill: Like, getting work done, like, together, you know, which is. Which is not ideal. Right. As far as, like, quality time. Right. And so I really wanted to think about, like, technology, you know, if that's, like, a baby step in that direction, like, what. What do you keep doing so that you say, like, oh, I'm not a monster. Of course, my husband and I spend time together, but, you know, like, through our proxies. Right. Because we all. We also have these other things to do.

[19:50] Marissa: Yeah. We're busy people.

[19:51] Jill: Yeah. You know?

[19:53] Marissa: Okay. And then what about, like, research for the technology? Did you dive into any sort of, like, up and coming technologies to try to bring that kind of authentic vibe to the world building, or were you very much, like, if I can imagine? I'm just going to go with it.

[20:09] Jill: Yeah, I'd say it was a mix. I think the neurochips, I kind of, like a little bit hand wavy. I did do some thinking about where they'd be located in people's skulls and especially lives, thinking about the lobes of her brain that need to be enhancing that emotional experience. So there's a little bit of research to back that up. There's a part earlier in the book where Adrian and his team are looking for the source of this new drug on the scene that's making people in the lower class communities rebel a little bit. And they're talking about how the brain scans look different on their kind of, like, their heat maps, because different parts of your brain light up. And so I was looking a little bit into that, the idea of, like, dopamine versus serotonin, and, um, you know, what those different, uh, scans would look like. And so that's kind of the impetus for this drug that they call orange haze, uh, because it lights your brain up in this, like, super, like, heat, heat mappy way, um, different parts of your mind. So, um, yeah, when they're starting to look for live and looking for a the drug they think that she's dealing. I won't spoil what the actual drug is. I was looking into some research on how different chemicals light up the brain.

[21:22] Marissa: Melanin in ya is your source for all things black in traditional young adult publishing. Melanin in YA is dedicated to amplifying black voices, including, but not limited to black young adult authors, literary agents, editors, and book influencers, as well as being the number one resource for industry professionals, librarians, educators, event organizers, and querying writers who are looking to engage in the black YA literary space. In addition to its database, Melanin and YA provides news, roundups of book deals, cover reveals, and more. For more information, head to melaninya.com and follow them on Instagram and threads. Ya should you judge a book by its cover?

[22:14] Jill: No.

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[23:50] Jill: All right.

[23:51] Marissa: And then another huge aspect of the world building is that we've got this great contrast between the metro, which is, of course, the big city, all corporate people are given productivity scores. People use these proxies, et cetera, et cetera. And then we've also got this totally different world out beyond the wall. Would you talk a little bit about the other group that plays a big role and the inspiration for that?

[24:24] Jill: Yeah, absolutely. So outside of the border of the metro, there is this place called the Outerlands. It basically is just anywhere north and outside of the city. And the rumors are that there are these kind of feral raiders that live out there and these hunting bands, and they'll tear you limb for limb if they find you and you don't want to go out there. There. Maybe some of that's true, like in some pockets, but for the most part, Liv and Adrienne discover something very different when they go out to the outer lands and see the people that are living there. And, you know, the way that I thought about that without giving too much away was that, you know, if, like, the thesis for the way of living in the metro is that, like, people are valuable because they are productive, then, you know, from that flows the proxies, the productivity scores, the way that they live their lives in the metro, kind of not having time for each other. In the outerlands, there's a belief that people have inherent value and intrinsic worth, and so they behave very differently. They take their time, they spend time together, they eat real food, among other things. So I really wanted the two kind of philosophies to play out in the cultures of those places.

[25:29] Marissa: Now, I loved it. I love how so many things of this book can be interpreted as a metaphor for things in real life and things that we are dealing with, because, of course, it is science fiction, and that's kind of, like, one of the biggest hallmarks of science fiction, and yet it's not at all didactic. It's still a really fun romantic adventure story, and I just really loved how it was handled.

[25:57] Jill: Thank you.

[25:58] Marissa: Speaking of romance, let's talk about our two main characters. You do set up this somewhat traditional star crossed lovers, enemies to lovers. She's a criminal, he's a cop trying to hunt her down. But then there's also, like, this huge twist, which, when I started to read it, had not read the, the blurb and the description, so I didn't see it coming at all. And I was like, oh, that's different. So tell me a little bit about building the romance storyline.

[26:32] Jill: Yeah, it's funny. So, like, a story comes together for me when I think of, like, what I want to say and some sort of setting and then some sort of character dynamic. And so for me, what I wanted to say was kind of talking about productivity and how we push for this stuff. The setting kind of flowed from that, and then the romance kind of came to me in this separate part of my brain. In the fall of 2021, I had just reread Serpent and Dove by Shelby Mahurin, which is a great book. And in that, it's kind of like witch. Witch hunter, right? You have the witch who kind of tricks the witch hunter into marrying her and then eventually reveals who she is. And I love that book. And I kind of wanted to think about a dynamic where it was almost the reverse. So in serpent and Dove, Lou the witch, she knows, she's a witch, and he doesn't know she's a witch. But I was like, what if somehow the witch hunter knew the witch was a witch and the witch didn't know she was? You know what I mean? So I wanted to kind of flip it, and I was like, well, how could I do that? And how could I do it in Sci-Fi because I love Sci-Fi. And so this sort of amnesia idea came to me of, like, she wipes her memories because she just needs a break and can't handle it anymore. He finds her. He knows exactly who she is, and so he's the one who's torn on kind of seeing a different side of her versus her saying, like, oh, witch hunters aren't all that bad.

[27:50] Marissa: What were some of the challenges unique to writing a character who has this sort of amnesia and, like, and not only that, she's lost, not she's wiped away her memories, but also knowing that, like, there's a deadline at which they're gonna come back. Like, it just seems like such an interesting way to handle that kind of trope. I guess it'd be considered trope. Yeah. So what were some of those unique challenges?

[28:18] Jill: Yeah. Well, the most important thing to me was I did not want it to feel like Liv lost her agency because if Adrienne's just, like, taking advantage of her this whole time, like, that's actually kind of gross, and I don't like that. I want them to still feel, like, equals and, like, this is still her choice. And so the decision was to kind of slowly have, first of all, to have all of her sort of executive functioning stay there. She's not a three year old kid. She retains her sense of decision making and just personhood. And over the course of the memory loss, she does kind of get bits and pieces back that help her feel a little bit more in control of the situation, and that was important to me. I also wanted to keep Adrian on his toes. Right. The idea that I don't know what she actually remembers is she playing me? What's actually real, what's going on? But I still have feelings that are developing for her. And I was so excited to get to that scene where her memories come back because I was like, oh, he's got to get it. He has made some questionable decisions, and we all know why, but still not cool. And so I was so excited for the moment where she gets her memories back, and it's just like, what did you just do? And her kind of conflicting nature of feeling the betrayal and feeling the way that he kind of tricked her, but also seeing that it wasn't all a ruse and having her wrestle with that as well. Kind of on the flip side, I think it's an interesting sort of from a character arc perspective, because a lot of her growth happens in this place where she's not fully herself, doesn't have a full sense of her memories, and then it all kind of synthesizes at once when she's back on the other side. And that was an interesting dynamic from a plotter perspective of it all comes whooshing together, and all of a sudden, she has to synthesize what she learned about herself and Adrian and what life could be out in the outerlands and mesh that all with what she now remembers about how hard life can be and what is supposed to be important. Mm hmm. No.

[30:13] Marissa: And it's a great tactic for this, built in tension between these two characters, and you've already touched on that. But I just think it's so clever the way that you have it set up and where it's really testing these two characters, but in completely different ways. Are you the sort of writer that slots out character arcs and hits those beats, and here's where she's changing this, and here's where his opinion changes on this. Or are you more of an organic? Let's just follow the story and see what happens.

[30:54] Jill: I'm definitely a plotter. Like I said, I have my spreadsheets.

[30:59] Marissa: That's right.

[31:00] Jill: That part of me hasn't changed. I got my spreadsheets. I do like to have a sense in every scene of how that arc is either progressing or even regressing, just like, where are we at with how this character is going to change? I do that both for the bigger theme of the story and also the romance itself because I wanted to make it really gradual, how Adrian falls for her and even how she falls for him, and then how she has to fall for him again after her memories come back. I always say that the dividing sky is like, he falls first, she falls twice, because she has to forgive him and get over it. Yeah. Nothing takes me out of a romance more than from one scene to another. Like, oh, I guess they're together now. And so I really wanted it to feel gradual and organic and not kind of, like, jolt you out of the story that for the sake of the plot, they're in love.

[31:56] Marissa: Yeah. No, I love that I am also a planner and an outliner, and I like that you're using words like, I wanted it to feel like gradual and organic. And so to do that, I plotted it out exactly.

[32:09] Jill: Exactly.

[32:10] Marissa: To non outliners. Sound backward. I get it.

[32:13] Jill: The 25% mark. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[32:17] Marissa: Okay, so then let's talk. Actually, I want to, so I want to go back a tiny bit to, and I don't want to sound like I'm hung up on this, but your first book took seven years.

[32:29] Jill: It did.

[32:30] Marissa: This one took three months.

[32:32] Jill: It did. Uh huh.

[32:33] Marissa: How did your process change? I mean, was it, do you just feel like you just learned so much in that first book that you could then apply to this? Was it just that you were so in the inspired, did you do something different with this book process wise?

[32:49] Jill: It's a really good question.

[32:50] Marissa: Tell me about that.

[32:51] Jill: Yeah, I feel like a big part of it was just knowing that I could because I'd done it once before. And so I think a lot of it was just confidence the first round of, like, am I really going to write a whole book? Versus, like, okay, now I know how this works. And, yeah, I think, you know, I had the plot. I think I had a better sense internally of just, like, story and how to plot out a story and what worked for me and what didn't. So I think I tried a lot of different approaches to outlining, but a lot of craft books in that first seven years and had found an approach of, like, mishmashing a bunch of stuff together that, like, worked for me. Then I just kind of applied it on the second book. And I think, too, you know, just like something about, for me at least, something about, like, having an agent and saying, okay, like, this is my thing. I'm doing this now. Right? Like somebody's waiting for this. I love a deadline. I guess I love a deadline. You can take the girl out of the corporate environment, but you can't take the corporate environment out of the girl. And so I, you know, like, I knew that someone was, like, waiting for my next thing and I was going to do that while I waited. And, you know, I was a writer now. And so I think that was a big part of just, like, just the mentality and the headspace of it.

[33:56] Marissa: Yeah. Do you feel like writing this book that has these big overarching themes of, like, slowing down, appreciating the important things, you know, stepping back from always having to be doing more and, and being more productive, et cetera. Do you feel like it changed you at all?

[34:17] Jill: Yeah, I think it did. I mean, I think it's been interesting to be promoting this book that advocates slowing down and thinking differently about what our time is worth and also having to do that on social media. So there is this institution in the book called an arcade, which is meant to enhance the high of your dopamine rush. It's filled with all these titillating, simulating images and videos and colors and all this stuff, and it's basically like a giant TikTok room meant to just pound your brain with happiness waves, and being able to be aware that that is a harmful thing that TikTok does. So how we think about happiness and engagement in media, but then also having to be on TikTok to promote the book.

[35:09] Marissa: Right.

[35:09] Jill: Was really hard, you know, and I think, you know, I really didn't want the book to feel preachy because, like, I am absolutely still in TikTok's clutches. Right. Like, I spend a ton of time, you know, on reels and on TikToks and stuff, just, like, looking at stuff and scrolling and, like, that's a. That's a big part of my brain that I have to constantly course correct away from. And, yeah, I think I have maybe an awareness of it that I didn't have as deeply an awareness of, as deep an awareness of before writing the book, but it doesn't mean that it's naturally any easier for me to overcome that.

[35:42] Marissa: Yeah, no, that makes so much sense. Social media, it is definitely one of those things that it's, like, love it and hate it all at once. It's so hard to strike a balance. I know. I struggle with it and have struggled with it from day one, so it's one of those things that's hard to. Yeah. To do it and to know that you're doing it right and. But also, like, not let it take over your life. It's a weird world that we're in right now.

[36:11] Jill: Yeah.

[36:13] Marissa: Okay. One more craft thing that I wanted to touch on briefly is so, obviously, the book mostly focuses on our two main characters, Liv and Adrian, and their developing romance and character arcs. But we also have these really great side characters. Liv has this kind of bandaid of what would a criminal group ish. But they're like besties. They're so fun. And then Adrian has this Android robot partner that I just love. So how did you go about creating or, I don't know, designing or just getting to know these side characters?

[36:59] Jill: Yeah, totally. Yeah. For Liv and her crew, first of all, I wanted to highlight the different kinds of proxies there are. So each one of them is a different kind, and that was really helpful to just kind of. To show not only what the proxies do, but also to show how each of those different types of roles requires some sort of sacrifice. So, like, Hez is, like, probably her best friend. He's a sprinter proxy, basically like a delivery boy. And he, you know, sprints all across the city getting people their packs of gum and birthday cakes and whatever in ten minutes or less and saving them time and saving them energy. But he is exhausted all the time. Right. So he's giving his own energy in his own time to kind of hit these quotas, but it's draining him. Right. And Sophie is a umbrella proxy, so her job is to go on the dates like we talked about, and she has no relationships of her own. And so I wanted to kind of play with all those things and show how each of the people that are in these roles for their clients, they're sacrificing that thing in their own personal lives. And I also just wanted to throw a kid in there, so that might be my favorite.

[38:05] Marissa: I think Celeste is going to stop for Celeste.

[38:08] Jill: Yeah. I think I've gotten some questions in interviews that are like, who would you hang out with, and who are you the most like? And I'm like, definitely Celeste. Definitely Celeste. She's nine. She is not a proxy yet that she wants to be one, because all of her friends and the older teenagers and adults she hangs out with are all proxies. She's also super smart, and, yeah, has a knack for fixing things. And to me, I think, for Celeste, Liv is kind of spurred into action because of celestes impending proxiness, and I wanted to show Celestes hopeful enthusiasm for this idea of, I want to provide. You guys are all working so hard. I want to help put me in. And to have Liv say, hang on a second. Maybe what was right for me isn't necessarily right for you. I think sometimes we can. We can see those choices and the pitfalls of those choices more easily in people that we care about, even if we've made those choices ourselves. So I wanted her to feel protective of somebody and kind of have second thoughts when she saw it. Kind of reflected that same hunger and ambition reflected in somebody that she cared about. Oh, and then for Nas. So Nas is Adrian's partner on the forest, and he's an Android, and he's amazing. He's a lot of people's favorite character, actually.

[39:18] Marissa: He's so great.

[39:20] Jill: He's amazing. I wanted an Android because, of course, and I wanted to show this law enforcement entity beginning the process towards this automation of this role. And so they want an army, basically, and they're going to slowly transition away from human forcemen to androids. But I wanted to subvert that trope a little bit, because typically when you think about droid police officers, you think of, like, robots and, like, just, like, very mechanical, sterile, kind of, like, cold and clinical. And, you know, Nas is. He's got a heart of gold. He really does. He's, like, fiercely devoted to Adrian. Literally. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like a heart of chrome. Heart of chrome and gold. Yeah, exactly.

[40:05] Marissa: Exactly. He.

[40:07] Jill: Yeah, he's, like, devoted to Adrian. He really, you know, wants to understand humans, even though he's like, you know, you guys are deeply, deeply flawed. You know, he's not wrong. And, yeah, you know, he takes his role as Adrian's partner very seriously, and I thought that was really touching.

[40:23] Marissa: Yeah. No, their relationship is one of my favorites. And, of course, we could, like, go on and on about artificial intelligence, especially since you've written this book.

[40:33] Jill: Oh, my gosh, it's changing so fast. It's terrifying.

[40:37] Marissa: Yeah, it is. But it's also so interesting to then see, you know, these are characters with artificial intelligence in our fiction, and just kind of. I don't know, there's just so many places you could take it. And I love what you did with Nas, for sure.

[40:52] Jill: Thank you.

[40:53] Marissa: Okay, my last question before we move on to our bonus round. You are also a podcaster. Yes. High fives. Love it.

[41:01] Jill: High five. Podcast.

[41:02] Marissa: Would you tell listeners a little bit about the podcast that you co host?

[41:08] Jill: Yes. So Afronauts Podcast is a podcast that I co host with Chelsea Gaydon and Beatrice Winifred Eicher, who are both speculative fiction authors. Beatrice's debut is coming out with Nightfire, I think, in next year, and Chelsea is on submission right now. And we've been going for. Wow. I guess it's been about three, three and a half years. Wow.

[41:35] Marissa: Yeah. About the same time as we started this one, I think.

[41:38] Jill: Yeah. Yeah. We originally met in a slack group for black speculative fiction authors and then wanted to kind of create a podcast. And I think what we realized at the time, none of us was even agented at the time, and I think we realized that you don't have to make it in order to be able to reach down for the next person behind you. That we each had expertise and things that we learned through querying and developing our craft and doing all these things and things we were just interested in talking about that we could share with others the way that it had been shared with us. So yeah. So it's been about three and a half years. We have guests on occasionally we talk about craft and even just black speculative media. So even shows and movies and stuff. And it's been great to kind of go on this journey with them and see all of our careers blossom from the beginning.

[42:26] Marissa: Yeah. No, that's so fun. I love that. So I hope our listeners will go give it a listen, too.

[42:33] Jill: Yeah.

[42:34] Marissa: Okay. Are you ready for our bonus round?

[42:36] Jill: Yes.

[42:37] Marissa: What book makes you happy?

[42:40] Jill: Okay, so there is another debut that came out this year. LM sagas wrote a book called Cascade Failure, which is an adult space opera motley crue, the best found family I've ever read in space opera or Sci-Fi this book is really cool. I don't even know if you would describe it as like a heist, but it's almost like a Sci-Fi adventure mystery about this secret plot that this corporation may or may not have to kill planets from the inside out, and this motley crew on the spaceship has to go figure out what's going on and kind of reverse the damage and figure out how to save all the communities on those planets. And it's just like the best Sci-Fi gritty captain and crew team ever. There's so many quips and just amazing Sci-Fi humor. I loved it.

[43:33] Marissa: What was the title again?

[43:34] Jill: Cascade failure.

[43:36] Marissa: All right, I'm writing it down. That's so many things that I love right there.

[43:39] Jill: It was great. And the audiobook is excellent, too, if you're good.

[43:42] Marissa: I love an audiobook.

[43:43] Jill: Yeah.

[43:43] Marissa: What are you working on next? And before you answer, I just got to say, with our wonderful criminal crew side characters, there is room for a spinoff here.

[43:53] Jill: There is room for a spinoff. You noticed?

[43:57] Marissa: Yes. I'm sort of hoping that might be what you're about to say. But if not, whatever you got for.

[44:04] Jill: Me, I'm working on that. That would be lovely if that it comes to fruition. Nothing official yet, but there is something happening in the world of the dividing sky. So next fall, a companion novel is coming out that actually is more of a prequel. It's actually like a standalone, but it's set about 150 years before the events of the dividing sky. And that book is called an ocean apart. And I call it the selection meets Waterworld. We're bringing back all the dystopian. So this is happening in a near future Miami that's flooded, where drinking water is scarce, and there's a girl who sneaks aboard the cruise ship of this wealthy water corporation heir and he is having a dating competition to find his match among all these other wealthy corporate heiress girls. And so she sneaks aboard, pretends to be one of them, and she tries to win his heart and all of his money and take it back to Miami. But her childhood best friend baby boyfriend also sneaks aboard the ship. And so there is a love triangle. There are tech enhanced ball gowns. It's all the good dystopian swoony vibes.

[45:22] Marissa: That sounds so fun. People find you.

[45:28] Jill: Yeah. So I am online, mostly on Instagram at j two. Tew writes same handle on Twitter and I'm tick tock. And then I've got my website, www. Dot jill two.com.

[45:43] Marissa: Awesome. Jill, thank you so much for joining me.

[45:46] Jill: Thank you for having me. This was a dream.

[45:48] Marissa: Readers, be sure to check out the dividing sky. It is available now. Of course, we encourage you to support your local indie book store, but if you don't have a local indie, you can also check out our affiliate store@bookshop.org, shop. Marissa Meyer coming up next. I am so excited. I am going to be on book tour with my co writer and our happy writing podcast. I don't know. What is your role, Joanne? Media manager, second in command, awesomeness. Okay. Anyway, Joanne Levy and I are going on book tour and we are going to record an episode while we are together in person. All about let it glow. There will probably be some q and a, maybe a giveaway. We don't actually have a plan yet, but it's going to be fun, so don't miss it. And again, let it glow does hit bookshelves tomorrow, October 29, so I hope you'll pick up a copy. Please leave us a review and follow us on Instagram. Happy writer podcast. And don't forget to check out our merchandise on Etsy. Until next time, stay inspired, keep writing, and whatever life throws at you today, I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.