Twists, Mysteries, and Filling Your Artistic Well with Marisha Pessl - Darkly

Marissa chats with Marisha Pessl about her new YA thriller, DARKLY. Also discussed in this episode: avoiding the trap of feeling like you have to publish a book a year, how planning and outlining can be essential for writing great twists that fool the reader, keeping a names database, finding inspirations for writing gothic and atmospheric novels, challenging yourself even if you’re not sure you can pull it off, writing both YA and adult and deciding between the two, refilling the artistic well, the benefits of boredom, and so much more!

The Happy Writer at Bookshop.org
Purchasing your books through our webstore at Bookshop.org supports independent bookstores.

Amplify Marketers
Our mission is to help your message rise above the noise so it can be heard loud & clear.

Red Herrings Society
Use the code HappyWriter at RedHerringWriters.com to try the first month for free.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Order The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond https://bookshop.org/a/11756/9781250362377

Find out more and follow The Happy Writer on social media: https://www.marissameyer.com/podcast/

Transcript

[00:10] Marissa: Hello and welcome to the Happy Writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host Marissa Meyer. Thanks so much for joining us today. What has been making me happy, so happy, ridiculously happy, is the Escape Game. In case you missed it, we got to reveal last week, well I guess two weeks ago. As of the time that this this episode is up, I have a new duology in the works. It has been co written with the incredible Tamara Moss. She was a guest on this podcast ages ago for our special world building Craft episode. If you want to go back and listen to that. Tamara and I have been writing critique partners for forever. We both got our start writing Sailor Moon fan fiction and met online and have been reading for each other ever since. And we have talked about wanting to co write something together for years and years and we've just been bouncing ideas back and forth and nothing ever felt quite right until now. And we we had this idea for a book that is now called the Escape Game. It is a murder mystery thriller set in an escape room reality TV show competition and it's coming out in spring of 2026. So we've got a little bit of a wait. But we're so excited. This book has been one of the hardest things that I think either of us have ever written because like surprise. Turns out murder mysteries are hard and also puzzles are hard and multi povs are hard. But we're so, so thrilled. It's been so satisfying watching it come together. We're both just like super proud of it and so happy that we can now talk about it because you know how it is, we write these things and then we're not allowed to talk about them for like months and months and months. But the announcement is the Escape Game is coming. I can't wait to talk more about it as we get a little bit closer. But for now, yay celebration. I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. She is a New York Times bestselling author known for her intricate genre defying mysteries. Her debut novel, Special Topics in Calamity Physics was selected as one of the New York Times Best Books of the Year. She's also the author of Night Film and the YA thriller Neverworld Wake. Her newest novel, Darkly, comes out tomorrow on November 26th. Please welcome Marisha Pessel.

[03:01] Marisha: Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be here and congratulations on your book. It sounds incredible.

[03:08] Marissa: Well, thank you and congratulations on your book. It's coming up so soon. How are you feeling?

[03:14] Marisha: Oh, gosh, I'm so excited. It's been a minute since my last book, so just delighted to connect with readers and it's just such a wonderful process that. Yeah, full of excitement.

[03:26] Marissa: Full of excitement. Are you nervous at all? I always get really nervous in the week leading up to launch.

[03:31] Marisha: You know what I was nervous about three months, three months ago. So at this point, I feel like it's already been released because, like, you know, as, you know, the lead up to when you finish a book and when it actually meets the world, which has gotten longer since when I first published topics, you know, it's such a long Runway now that, you know all of those feelings, you feel like it's almost like, yeah, that all happened last year and, and I've moved on already to my next project. I'm finishing up my adult novel. So it's wonderful to also have other things in the pipeline. So you're not just so focused on, you know, the outcome and the response of one book because if you take a longer view of a career over many decades, hopefully, you know, it's. It's one tree in the forest, hopefully. And hopefully it's a tree that everyone likes.

[04:22] Marissa: But, yeah, I hope this is your favorite tree. No, I think it's so true. I think it's so important to always have something else coming up in the pipeline so that you don't just, like, get so entirely focused on what's the outcome of this one book going to be. For me, a lot of times, by the time a book is coming out, I've forgotten so much about it. Like, I'm like three books ahead of you all by now.

[04:47] Marisha: I know, I know. Like, yeah, it's like talking about what you did on a Wednesday five years ago, you're like, what? But yes, I think it's completely healthy because, you know, in the end, and this is the amazing thing, it's like you never know. Even your publisher never, never knows. It's like this incredible alchemy between readers and what they're drawn to. And, you know, some sometimes like, you know, the audience finds a book later. So. But it's such a joy to be in the publishing industry. And now that I've been in it for a while, it seems like a while. I just find the entire thing, like, so magical and like to be a part of this, this like, age old, age old tradition that people were doing 300 years ago. Like, I just find it so wondrous. So, yeah, well, I find that to.

[05:37] Marissa: Be incredibly refreshing because it's one of the reasons I started this podcast.

[05:42] Marisha: Oh, great.

[05:42] Marissa: Is because so many writers don't have that take on publishing. And you, you listen to writers and there's the griping and, you know, marketing budgets and I don't get along with my publicist and my agent's not doing enough for me and like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I really started this because I feel like it is magical. It is special that we get to our imaginations to create something and then communicate with readers in this way. I so happy to be a part of it.

[06:08] Marisha: And we're making a physical book. Like, how cool is that? Like, and I remember when my first book came out, like so many people said, you know, you're going to be out of the job, the Internet, video games, you know, everything. Ebook. Like the physical book is going to be akin to like, you know, I guess. Yeah, just like something, you know, a DeLorean or something. And then it just shows human beings need physical books. Like, it's just. Is a thing. It's a. It's like needing music. It's. It sings to our soul. It brings us something nothing else does. And it's not going to go away even with all of this gorgeous technology. Blah, blah, blah. Call me, you know, old fashioned or something, but the, the, the death of the book has been greatly exaggerated.

[06:59] Marissa: Yeah.

[06:59] Marisha: No.

[06:59] Marissa: And it's been going on for 100 years. You know, people thought the radio was going to kill the book. Well, now movies are going to kill it. Okay. TV is going to kill it. Video games are going to kill it. No, no, it's.

[07:08] Marisha: Now movies are dead and books are on the rise. So it's just a wonderful thing to be a part of. Yes. There's, you know, little, you know, storms and teacups that like, can get anyone riled, but then you just have to take a step back and be like, wow, what a gift to be able to be part of this, to be a storyteller. It's just such a. It's a wonderful thing. It's so gratifying. It's so meaningful. And so, yeah, that's how I love it.

[07:34] Marissa: I appreciate that so much. I'm. We're in 100% agreement. We're clearly.

[07:39] Marisha: Oh, thank you. I'm so glad to hear that.

[07:41] Marissa: So I want to start by going back in time a little bit. Speaking of the DeLorean, I want to hear your origin story. How did you become a writer?

[07:51] Marisha: Well, it's one of Those things that I think I already was as a child, I was always writing my own stories. My mom gave me a typewriter. My mom loved to write stories herself, so I just did that alongside her. And then I started to share them with my peers. I remember bringing them to school and, you know, I wrote about horses and going to McDonald's and all kinds of stuff. And I always wrote very long works, though. And so I just. Writing stories was always a part of my life. I was definitely a theater geek. And in college I had a minor in playwriting, majored in English Literature at Barnard. So I did think perhaps I would be a playwright because I love the theater. Still do. But, you know, always writing novels in my spare time. Always sending them off, you know, into the literary world. You know, I had no contact. So these were cold queries. Introducing myself. Hi, I'm Marissa Bussell. I've written this incredible novel. And then to the industry's credit, all of the agents who reviewed my work and universally rejected it at this time always gave very substantive, encouraging feedback to me. And so I use that, you know, the few little lines of encouragement to always keep going. And then I published. I wrote special topics while I. A little bit while I was in college, then graduated, and then I had my first job at PricewaterhouseCoopers as a financial consultant. This is the early aughts. And wrote my book in my spare time. And at that point, that was probably my fourth novel. I was able to secure an agent from there and then could. Could call myself a. A professional writer.

[09:37] Marissa: Okay, so how many books do you think you wrote? From the first one, you were like, I'm gonna write a novel until your first book sold.

[09:46] Marisha: Yes. I probably wrote three mysteries that, like, you know, ended up in the slush pile. So it was real. Special Topics is really my fourth full length novel.

[09:56] Marissa: Okay.

[09:57] Marisha: Yeah.

[09:58] Marissa: And then I'm curious because earlier you mentioned that it's been a minute since your last book came out. Now, leading up to Darkly, the publication of your fourth book, how long has it been?

[10:08] Marisha: So I think Neverworld, wait, came out in 2018, so that's six years.

[10:13] Marissa: Wow.

[10:14] Marisha: I know.

[10:15] Marissa: Okay, I'm curious. What happened?

[10:18] Marisha: What's. What's. Well, you know what? My. My current adult book just took a little bit more time. Okay. Now I'm finally finishing editing that. So it's been a labor of love, but I don't really put, like, time pressures that I need to write a book a year or anything like that.

[10:35] Marissa: Yeah. Well, that's so interesting because so Many writers do, you know, you get on the mouse wheel, and publishers want a book once a year. Once a year. And it's so in our heads that, like, if I want to build this career and I want to keep my readership, keep my platform, like, keep chugging ahead, it's really easy to get into this mindset of I need to produce a book a year. How have you managed to not fall into that trap?

[11:03] Marisha: I don't really know. I think paramount for me is the story and, I don't know, something about, like, my third adult novel. I almost. Maybe in my head, I felt like it's going to set the tone for what comes after. I also don't like to write the same book again and again. Like, all of my books are fairly different, and this one in particular is very ambitious, and it just took a lot of time. But I also don't. I think once you get. If. If the fear of losing a reader is driving the artistic process, I'm wary of that. For me, I like to have, particularly when I'm writing for adults, the space to explore, throw things out. So I. I would love to write a little faster, but at the same time, you know. Yeah, I guess things just take their own time, so I just allow myself that freedom, I think.

[12:03] Marissa: Yeah, I think that's admirable. Honestly, I struggle with it, and I'll be the first to admit it. Like, I, since day one, have been like, I gotta keep producing. And part of it is that I just have a lot of books that I want to write. And so it's this ticking clock over my own head that I'm like, I'll never get through them all if I don't keep going. Yeah. But there is an outside pressure as well.

[12:23] Marisha: Yes. Yes. You know, it's a balance, I think. I will say I think things don't take as long as I think they are to get done, so. But I have an interesting relationship with time. Like, you know, my family definitely laugh at me. Like, I'll be like, oh, I'll be able to do this in, like, three months. And my husband will, like, chime in and be like, okay, that means one year. So.

[12:45] Marissa: Yeah.

[12:46] Marisha: No, it's just time is like. But, yes. I mean, in the end, it's the book. You know, there are some people that publish one book every 10 years, and it's a monumental book, so. But everyone has their own sort of timing, I think, and the way that they like to work. It's so very. There's so many variables.

[13:07] Marissa: Yeah. No, There really are. And it's funny, too, that every book is different. And so I feel like once you have written a book in a month or in three months or in six months, then we get it in our heads that we're capable of doing that.

[13:22] Marisha: Yes.

[13:22] Marissa: And so then we assume that, like, every book will write that quickly. But no, every book is. Some have. Need more research, and some are just more complex plots, and sometimes the characters take longer to figure out. And it's just. You just can't say, like, okay, I'm always going to produce on this schedule.

[13:40] Marisha: Yes. I mean, I. I'm a big scheduler. Even though it wouldn't. I get. So I don't get me wrong, I love my goals and I love my timing, but, yeah, it's like, you're right. Everything has its own kind of life and heartbeat, and being in tune with that, but also pushing yourself a little bit, I think is all part of it.

[14:01] Marissa: Yeah. Okay, so now we're going to talk about your new book, Darby. And before we jump into it, I just want to start since kind of bridging from that conversation, how long would you estimate this book took you? Pure curiosity.

[14:16] Marisha: This one came together really fast. Well, so I was. So my adult novels taking as long as it takes. And then these two young adult novels, like, really came together, and this particular novel, like, probably I wrote in three months and then went through the editorial process. So that was actually. It was a joy to write this because of that velocity story sort of wrote itself. I'd never really understood how people said that until writing this.

[14:43] Marissa: Okay, I love that. I feel like we don't get very many of those in our career, so it's always nice when you. When the universe hands you one.

[14:51] Marisha: Exactly. Exactly. I don't know what my diet or what. What I was dreaming of, but. Yeah, right.

[14:56] Marissa: Like, how can I recreate.

[14:58] Marisha: Yeah.

[14:58] Marissa: Okay, so I am just going to start by saying I loved this book. And as I was reading it, like, I was reading it over the weekend, and it was one of those books where I just wanted to tune out the entire world. I was so immersed, so dying to know where the story was heading the whole time. And then at one point, my daughters were asking about it, and I was trying to, like, describe the book. Like, it's a really hard one to describe. So I cannot wait to hear your official pitch for it. Would you tell listeners what is Darkly about?

[15:35] Marisha: Darkly is a fairly twisted tale that centered upon a young woman named Arcadia Gannon, who wins a spot after a worldwide Search in a coveted internship for the Louisiana Veda Foundation. Now, L.A. veda was one of the most provocative and mysterious women who ever lived. Deceased now for almost 40 years, she created a legendary board gaming empire called Darkly, which was comprised of 28 legendary, horrifying games. She died by suicide and in disgrace in 1985. And in the subsequent years, her games and the rumors swirling around her shadowed life have lived on, fetching prices at auction in the tens of millions and spawning a pretty ribald fandom in the meantime. So when Arcadia arrives at this internship, living at the secret Darkly factory, encountering the other interns, each one stranger and more secretive than the next, she really starts to unravel the conspiracy. And part of the fun of writing this was that there's the mystery in the past that she must solve, which will unlock the mystery in the present. So going between those two was really a lot of fun.

[16:46] Marissa: Yes. I'm really amazed that this, of all the books, was the one that just wrote itself, because it is so complex. There's so much happening here. And as I mentioned earlier, talking about my new book coming out, mysteries are hard. And there's, like, a number of mysteries in this book.

[17:04] Marisha: Yes, well, because I think mystery is my genre. Like, I now have my little. The tricks up my. My sleeve, you know, my trade secrets that I, you know, have now worked on for a while. But I think it really centered upon coming up with the biography of this woman, you know, lodged in the past. And she, L.A. was really inspired by some of these biographies that I've read about, you know, the industrialists and the business magnates, so many people who've shaped our world, whether it's Henry Ford or Evanderbilt or even a Marilyn Monroe, finding out what their true stories are versus, you know, this exterior world that they built that so many people have fallen in love with. Like, the division between those stories was so interesting to me. So that's how I came up with Louisiana. You know, someone who is so deeply lodged in the past, it's hard to know where the truth is. So that's really Arcadia's journey to find that out, especially in relation to how we are today. With so much transparency, everyone knows everything. You know, going back into the past and trying to unearth those stories that so many of them remain buried.

[18:19] Marissa: Yeah. All right. You mentioned having trade secrets when it comes to writing mystery. Please tell us more.

[18:29] Marisha: These trade secrets of yours give them away. Well, I think it's all about planning, and I spent a lot of time before I set out writing, planning. So, you know, when I'm, you know, revealing a twist that comes at the end of the book, like, this has all been planned way ahead of time. And I plan, like, really easily on, you know, in my notebook, pen and paper, you know, figuring out, well, you know, what the central truth is and then doing my best to fool the radar, which is a lot of fun because, you know, I love nothing more than when an author really fools me. So it's just such a wonderful thing to pull off, and it's a wonderful thing to have done to you by a really skilled author. So.

[19:16] Marissa: No, I love it. I love the reveal that you feel like you should have seen coming but didn't.

[19:21] Marisha: Great.

[19:22] Marissa: Yes. That's where we're going for.

[19:24] Marisha: Yeah, exactly that. Yes. Because it can't come from left field and be like, oh, it has to be. It has to be more of, you know.

[19:33] Marissa: Yeah. So you plan you lots, do lots of planning on your back story. Do you also take that then into an outline for the book?

[19:42] Marisha: Definitely. Yes. Yes. And I'm also always on the lookout to change my mind because, you know, we're really getting at truth. Like, everything has to feel really truthful. And I know that can be an elusive feeling. But, you know, the words on the page have to feel truthful. The thoughts of the protagonists and, you know, her reasoning, it has to be very truthful. So once you do all that plotting, it's about, like, telling the story in a very truthful way.

[20:10] Marissa: Mm. And also digging into your character. Right. It has to feel authentic to who this character is, what they believe, what they're feeling in that moment as you kind of touched on.

[20:20] Marisha: Exactly.

[20:21] Marissa: Arcadia is a great character. I love her.

[20:24] Marisha: Oh, thank you.

[20:26] Marissa: And the other six interns and Louisa herself, like, there. This is a book. It's just full of really interesting people. How do you go about developing characters? And also, like, kind of as a side note, how do you come up with their names? Because there's a lot of cool names.

[20:43] Marisha: Well, you know what? I'm always on the lookout for names, so I have, like, a names database. But you don't want them to be too Charles Dickinsonian. Like, he did what he did so perfectly. So you don't want them to be, like, too out there. So it's a fine line. But, yes, like, I love. I have my names database that I've been, like, keeping for a really long time of, like, all different names. So I kind of just like, point and choose names that, like, seem right. But a few times I've chosen, like, generic names that later in books, like, I'll try to change, and I just can't. Like, Hannah Schneider from my first novel was always, like, a placeholder, and I kept trying to change it, and then it just felt so wrong, so I was like. So a lot of it is, like this, you know, funny emotional response of the author to, like, what they've created. So, yes, but in terms of how I develop characters, same kind of thing, like, on the page, understanding what they look like, you know, their secrets. They're at Kelly's Hill, like, what they want. You know, a lot of this doesn't even come up in the first book, or it doesn't come up in Darkly. So. But, yeah, just having that there and then knowing, like, it'll come out in conversation, or it's just underlying there. It reminds me very much of this acting class that I took in college. Like, you know, all of this stuff that you do to prepare for your character, and then you memorize your lines, and then you're just live on the stage in theater and, like, in the present, and you just have to have digested all of that information and knowing that will eventually just come out, hopefully in your performance, if you're good.

[22:20] Marissa: Yeah. And I'd wondered, because, like, for the six interns, as an example, they're present throughout the story, we learn these fascinating little tidbits about each one, but never, like, really fully delve into, like, what's happening with them. What is their backstory story? What is their history? And I. I got the feeling that you probably know so much more about these characters, but sometimes readers or writers fool you, you know, and they're like, no, I just threw that in because it was interesting. But, you know, so are you. Do you have, like, full biographies?

[22:55] Marisha: I do. I do. Because there's actually going to be a sequel to Dark Lady.

[22:59] Marissa: I was going to ask that. Is it. Okay, what can you tell us about the sequel? Anything?

[23:04] Marisha: Absolutely nothing. No, but, yeah. So I have, like, my Bible for Darkly and all of this, like, characterization and so more will come out. But Darkly is very much like, there's a velocity to what happens. So, you know, it was not a book where there's going to be a lot of backstory. Like the movie. The book was designed to have a sort of velocity of things happening, and as so many summers do when you're a teenager of, you know, these crazy things that happen, and then it's suddenly over, and you're like, wait, what? And all everyone's going home and, and just. Yeah, thinking back on that really like pressure cooker. Kind of very vibrant and at times dangerous times.

[23:53] Marissa: Yeah, I've definitely never had a summer like this.

[23:56] Marisha: You haven't? You didn't do a summer internship yourself?

[24:00] Marissa: On a creepy deserted island with people probably trying to kill me.

[24:05] Marisha: I never went to camp. That's exactly what.

[24:07] Marissa: No, I really missed out on that excuse.

[24:10] Marisha: That's what sleepaway camp is.

[24:15] Advertisements: So you want to write a book, but you just don't know where to start or the process feels overwhelming. The Storyteller's Weekly Journal is exactly what you need. Designed to walk you through idea development, all aspects of the writing process, and the creation of pitch materials, the Storyteller's Weekly Journal is a planner, craft book and a guided journal all in one. It's the writing coach, teacher and companion you need at your side every story, every time. The Storyteller's Weekly Journal is available wherever books are sold.

Writers, before your next book is released, you need to check out session eight of the Author Advantage Series, a free 10 session course from Amplify Marketing Services. This 24 minute video includes insider tips from an agency that has advertised over 25,000 books in the last five years. Learn which ad platforms can help boost your book launch and so much more@amplifymarketers.com authors. 

Marissa: Well, no, I'm so excited to hear that there's a sequel because this is one of those books that it has a satisfying ending. Like you feel like a lot of things are resolved, but you also feel like you've only seen the tip of the iceberg. I have a theory. I'm not gonna say it, but I have a theory that comes up in book two.

[25:49] Marisha: Okay, good. I can't wait to hear it.

[25:51] Marissa: Okay, so you talk about the book having this velocity which it's very action packed, very driven and yet in the midst of all of these action packed scenes and you know, word like worried for these characters lives a lot, but it's also very atmospheric. Like you have this great, these great settings. It's creepy, it's dark, it's horrifying. How do you balance those two things?

[26:22] Marisha: Well, I do. Again, this is a lot of preparation. Like I love, like I have a history of loving gothic novels like gothic Victorian novels. And to bring that back, to find that darkness in the corners of the world that are unreachable. Like I wanted, I really wanted to bring that back, that feeling of like good old fashioned stay up all night cobblestones and fog. That feeling which is so much a part of my reading experience as a child. And so I wanted that feeling. And I think. I just think very visually is this world that created. I mean, the island where Arcadia ends up is in the North Sea off the coast of England. And just resurrecting bits of that English tradition of the Gothic novels, the Bronte sisters, Daphne du Maurier, all inspired the Feelings of Darkly.

[27:17] Marissa: Mm. Do you build inspiration boards? Do you scour Pinterest? Do you watch creepy movies? Like, do you do anything to try to get into the mindset of being able to create these settings?

[27:31] Marisha: Little bit of, like, printing out photos or looking through books. I don't do Pinterest or anything like that, but I. Because I like to have the actual physical. Like, I like to print things out, but not that much. Like, I guess it's sort of the hallucination of writing where you see yourself there and then just basically describing and.

[27:56] Marissa: How much of that comes out in the first draft versus revisions.

[28:01] Marisha: I think it comes out in the first draft.

[28:03] Marissa: Okay.

[28:04] Marisha: Yeah. I don't really add atmosphere or. No, I think the second draft is really about, like, the reading experience and smoothing everything out. So the first draft is all about, like, building that world. And definitely the second draft can be, like, adding those details. But yeah, the first draft is definitely, like, throwing everything in the kitchen sink. And then it's all about cutting away, which. It's funny now that I've written, you know, my. This is now my fourth published novel. Like, I love the cutting away. When I first wrote my. My first novel, I was all about, like, stuffing at full, like an overgrown jungle, and then just hoping readers can. Readers will find themselves lost in it. But now I love the illumination almost. Not as much, but almost as much as the actual writing.

[28:58] Marissa: What about the creation of the game itself itself? So part of the plot of this story hangs on this mysterious 29th game that no one knew existed. And so we, throughout the story, kind of get to see this game being played out in. In very interesting ways. How much did you know about the game? Is that another part that you had, like, fully planned out?

[29:28] Marisha: Yes, like, I fully planned out exactly what this game is going to be. And it was inspired very much by how we, as artists take from our own lives and then remanufacture it into art. And so that was definitely the inspiration for number 29. But, yes, absolutely, I knew everything. And I knew, like, how the interns were gonna struggle to make their way through the game.

[29:58] Marissa: I'm so fascinated by this because there's so many just weird little details that for me, as I'm reading, like, I know if I were writing this book, I would have been like, okay, I'm halfway through this scene. I need something creepy here. And then I'm like, I don't know, you know, dead dove in a cage, whatever. And then, like, you keep going with it, but everything just connects, like these great little puzzle pieces. And so even though there's a lot of things that feel really random in a way, by the end of the book, you're like, oh, I see how it all connects.

[30:33] Marisha: Well, that's. My planning is paramount. But I also play a little bit without giving too much away with behind the scenes and what we're exposed to and what we see and what we make sense of. And then behind the scenes, whether it's an icon, as I was saying before, like a Marilyn or a Henry Ford or a George Washington, and then what's going on behind the scenes. So I was definitely playing with those perceptions and how there's always another level of behind the scenes. Not to fuel too much conspiracy theory, but we're so. We're so blinkered as a human race, as members of society, as to what actually is going on. And of course, as you know, suspended on the blue planet, like, we have really no idea what. Beyond any of this. So definitely playing with those levels of perception and what we're able to understand in our immediate environment, and then what is. What we sense is happening beyond the limits of our vision.

[31:34] Marissa: Yeah. Okay, so we've established that you wrote the book in three months, but we've also established that you do a ton of planning. Was the planning included in that three months, or did that come before?

[31:46] Marisha: I think it probably came before. So I think I usually do, like, about a month of planning.

[31:51] Marissa: Okay. I'm so impressed. I really. I. This is just one of those books that. I just loved it. I just loved it. And even, like, planning out our conversation for today and thinking, okay, what am I gonna ask? You know, putting together my questions. I just kept coming back to you. I just wanna know how you did it. Cause it's so good.

[32:10] Marisha: A lot of planning with a piece of paper and a pen.

[32:13] Marissa: Okay, well, that's not. Not unlike my own process. So I'll just accept that I'm doing something right.

[32:20] Marisha: You're definitely doing something right. Sometimes you, like, you come up with things, and then you're just like, oh, this just doesn't. You know, this doesn't make my heart sing. This isn't, like, really Engaging me like, oh, that's cool. Like, you kind of do have to follow your own sense of wonder. Like, oh, that's so neat. I want to see that on the page. Or some of it's like, oh, could I pull this off? Probably not, but I'm going to try. Yes, I totally agree. Like, so I'm always challenging myself and you know, failure is just as likely as success sometimes, but you have to try. It's all about the attempts. So. Yeah.

[32:54] Marissa: Yeah. And also I feel like, you know, do you ever really fail? Because even if you're not happy with it, you can just keep going. You can try again, revise again, edit again. Like, pushing ourselves to get it right is one of those. It's. It's a challenge, but it's also a joy.

[33:11] Marisha: Yes. And that's also a point of letting it sit. Like, you know, like when you're in a scene study class. I don't know why I keep referencing the one acting class I ever took. But, you know, and scene, like, there is a moment where you're like, okay, that's it. This is it. This is as good as it's going to be. Like, time to, you know, emotionally and artistically move on. So, yeah, it's weighing all of those things. But I think you, when you are finished with a novel, you should feel absolutely exhausted and even a little sick of it at that point. Like, that's when you know you're done. Don't keep like, you know, don't keep painting on the canvas so it becomes a muddled brown mess. Like, let it go. Move on to the next thing. Like, that's end scene.

[33:54] Marissa: Yeah, no, that's a really good point. And definitely by the end, we're always just a little bit sick of it.

[34:00] Marisha: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[34:02] Marissa: Okay. To kind of switch gears a little bit. I am curious because your first two books, I believe, were adult fiction and now you've written to yas and now you're going back into adult. If that's accurate, I think. Yes, exactly. How do you decide. How do you know when a book. When you feel it's right for the adult market versus the YA market.

[34:23] Marisha: Yes, well, so I think I've always loved a good coming of age. And when I was starting work on my third adult novel, like, I just had this very eureka idea for this young adult. And now I sort of see who I am as a writer shifting between the two. Like, young adult is a little higher concept and there's a velocity to the writing while my adult obviously I'm at writing at a slower pace for adults, so it's almost like young adult is like a nice, like, sprint to do while the marathon is the adult novel. This is going to change, but this is kind of what I'm perceiving. But I would say, like, the style is always the same. You know, the way a person writes is just how a person writes. So. So the style is the same, but I think the young adult is like, definitely has a velocity to the reading experience.

[35:24] Marissa: Okay.

[35:25] Marisha: Yeah.

[35:25] Marissa: So when you're writing for one or the other, do you give much thought to the end reader or are you just like, this is the story I'm telling and I'm just going to do it the best that I can.

[35:37] Marisha: I do. I do. I definitely keep a writer, a reader in mind. I mean, you can't, like, pander to the reader. Like, I guess the reader is also myself in some way. So, you know, so I do think of the reader. Like, I want the reader to have a glorious experience. Like, that's definitely the aim. So I do think of that reader. I think some of the fans I've met over the years, like, I, you know, I love these people. I love people who read, so I want to give them joy. I want to. Of course, I want to wrench their heart out and make them weep on the floor. But. But I want to know. So I do absolutely think of that person. I don't know exactly who that person is, but, yeah, it must be the fans I've met and encountered over the years. And so you got to think about the reader experience.

[36:28] Marissa: Oh, my mind just went blank.

[36:29] Marisha: I hate that you're thinking about the reader experience.

[36:32] Marissa: Yeah, Well, I know for me, I think of the reader, but I think the reader is me. It's like, what do I want to read? Or what did Teen Marissa want to read?

[36:44] Marisha: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, I think I also give the reader a lot of credit. The one thing I don't like are editorial notes that kind of. And I've actually never. None of my editors have ever done this, but, like, just kind of pandering to a reader. And I also respect that. Readers have a lot going on. They're probably, you know, they're probably. They certainly have a job and they have, like, commitments. They have emotional stresses. They have financial stresses. So you want. If they're picking up your book. I want readers to have a fantastic experience.

[37:20] Marissa: Yeah, no, and that's a good thing to keep in mind.

[37:23] Marisha: Definitely. Definitely. Because they're. They're people like us with lots going on. And so if they are spending money on this book, like you want to transport, you want to connect them, you want to give them a sense of. I do. Like a sense of hope. Is that.

[37:38] Marissa: No, I'm the same way. And that's of connect. Can be different with. Between YA and adults. Like, for me, I feel YA tends to have more of that hopefulness. Yes.

[37:48] Marisha: I mean, I think I bring the hopefulness to my adult too, because that's my outlook. I can't change it. But yeah, but yes. Like the sense that we are all one and we are all connected and I do feel hopeful.

[38:00] Marissa: Yeah. Then the last thing I kind of wanted to talk about before we move on to our bonus round, kind of just a general. Because I'll preface this. There are so many things in this book as I'm reading that I think I wouldn't have thought of that. It's unique, it's different from anything that I've read before. It all comes together, it all works. But as a writer and as, you know, a reader who reads a fair amount, it's rare these days for a book to really surprise me. And this was one of those books that really surprised me.

[38:31] Marisha: Oh, thank you.

[38:33] Marissa: So kind of back to the Tell me your secrets. How just go about filling the creative well, like, how do you feel like you maintain your creativity in a way that. That you can get ideas that feel like they haven't been done a million times?

[38:49] Marisha: I know. Well, you know, it's sort of that mystery. But I do love to just go to bookstores. I love to read, you know, I love to kind of wander. I love to sort of let my mind daydream because as you say, that is about refilling the artistic well. And so I do a lot of that. And I do love, like things that haven't been done. I mean, I haven't read every book, but I love, you know, tapping into stories that haven't been told yet or, you know, the surprises that go into, you know, all of the mysteries that go into a single individual. Like, it's so infinite and so to bring about some of those things. But yes, I love to just kind of wander. And you know, as a parent, I was also thinking so much in terms of allowing your children to be bored and it's the same thing. It's like no phone, no distraction, no looking up this fact about George Washington. Like, how old was he when he, you know, just letting it all go and having the silence and, and really recharging is so important.

[39:55] Marissa: It is so important. And my kids have learned, like, there's no use telling mom you're bored. That's not my problem to solve. Children.

[40:05] Marisha: Yes. And actually, when they save their board, I'm like, oh, this is so wonderful, because they're going to come up with something and they always do.

[40:11] Marissa: They always do. No, and that's usually. That's my. My response. They say, I'm bored. And I say, oh, great, that's so good for you. They just roll their eyes.

[40:19] Marisha: Yes. Just wander around and they'll start playing dress up or start doing something really funny. Yes. Because boredom used to be, like, a bad word in our house. Like, it used to drive me nuts because, you know, I've never. I think as an individual, like, I'm never bored.

[40:35] Marissa: Oh, I don't even know what that means.

[40:37] Marisha: Yeah.

[40:38] Marissa: Last time I felt bored.

[40:40] Marisha: Well, as writers, we can always just start plotting new books that we're never bored. So. Yeah. It's just. But now I actually have learned to. Because now my kids quickly figured out, like, oh, if we save born, that's what gets under mom's skin. That's like my. That's like, yeah, my. My Achilles heel. But now I'm like, oh, bored is great. Like, yes, say you're bored because that means, like, something interesting is about to happen.

[41:06] Marissa: Yeah. No, and it's funny, I. Even to a point now where I have to, like, manufacture boredom for myself because I. I always have so many balls in the air, always have so many things that I want to try to accomplish and get done and blah, blah, blah. And so I have to, like, be like, hey, I've got nothing going on for the two next two hours. I'm going to just sit here and stare out the window. And we have to be kind of intentional about it sometimes.

[41:32] Marisha: Oh, definitely. Because I know it's like, there's always something going on and. But then, like, so much time can go by where you're just, like, infinitely distracted by minutia, so.

[41:43] Marissa: No, yeah, no, I. Excuse me. I agree with that 100%. I think boredom is so integral and filling the well with, you know, books and stories and all of that. And I would say, like, I generally, if someone's listening to this and they're like, oh, no, I'm writing a enemies to lovers fake relationship book, and it feels like it's been done a million times. Like, that itself is not a bad thing. And I don't want people to hear me talking about this and think, like, everything you write has to Be like, totally new and original and unique and blah, blah, blah.

[42:18] Marisha: Yeah.

[42:18] Marissa: So much room for all of it.

[42:20] Marisha: Exactly. And in the end, every story has already been told. I mean, whether this twist is new, I'm sure if we went back to the Library of Congress and be like, actually, that's already been done. So, I mean, everything has been done before, but it's like. Yeah. Finding a new way of saying it in new direction with which to tell the story.

[42:38] Marissa: Yeah. And your own. Your own perspective, your own voice. Like it's all going to come together to make it something that is yours.

[42:45] Marisha: Yes, exactly.

[42:47] Marissa: Okay, Marisha, ready for our bonus round?

[42:50] Marisha: Absolutely. I can't wait.

[42:51] Marissa: What book makes you happy?

[42:54] Marisha: Oh, I would say Lonesome dove by Larry McMurtry. What?

[43:01] Marissa: You've already touched on this a little bit, but what can you tell us about what's coming up next?

[43:07] Marisha: My next novel is my third novel.

[43:11] Marissa: For adults and it was Hard to rain. Took you a long time.

[43:15] Marisha: I'm glad I gave you so much color. About that. I know I'm very cagey, like when I'm still working on something, but hopefully you'll invite me back so I can talk to you about it in 2026. It's a date.

[43:30] Marissa: And I'm excited to hear about a Darkly sequel.

[43:32] Marisha: Oh, God. God.

[43:33] Marissa: Somewhere in the background.

[43:35] Marisha: Yeah. No, there's more to Louisiana. Vana and all of the interns, so. Absolutely. We have something very exciting on Arsley.

[43:42] Marissa: I'm excited.

[43:44] Marisha: Thank you.

[43:45] Marissa: Lastly, where can people find you?

[43:48] Marisha: Oh, everyone can find me on Instagram at marishapasl. Yes. And I have a newsletter and I share writing tips and not all of my trade secrets, but definitely we'll get on that. Would you mind behind the scenes? So be sure to sign up for my newsletter@marishapestle.com awesome.

[44:07] Marissa: Marisha, thank you so much for joining me.

[44:09] Marisha: Marissa, it was so lovely. Thank you so much for having me.

[44:13] Marissa: Readers, I hope you will check out Darkly, which comes out tomorrow. Of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore, but if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store@bookshop.org shop Marissa Meyer. Next week we are celebrating the holidays with our gift guide for readers and writers. Joanne and I will be sharing both reader submitted ideas or I guess, listener submitted ideas, plus some of our personal favorite books to help you find the perfect gifts for the book lovers in your life. Please leave us a review and follow us on Instagram happywriter Podcast. And don't forget to check out our merchandise on Etsy. Speaking of good gifts, until next time, stay inspired, keep writing, and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.