Banter, Love Confessions, and IP Projects with Paul Coccia - Recommended Reading

In this first episode of 2025, Marissa chats with Paul Coccia about his upcoming YA romance, RECOMMENDED READING. Also discussed in this episode: Glitterature, projects taking time to find the perfect home and market, feeling confident enough to follow your own path, intellectual property (IP) projects and the audition process, working to a provided beat sheet, prologues and opening scenes, writing great banter and love confessions, and so much more!

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Transcript

[00:09] Marissa: Hello and welcome to the Happy Writer. This is a podcast that aims to bring readers more books to enjoy and to help authors find more joy in their writing. I am your host, Marissa Meyer. Thank you so much for joining me on the first episode of our 2025 New Year Sketch schedule. Yeah, I'm glad that you're here and I'm excited to be heading into a new year. One thing that is making me happy this week, I have a new chandelier. My office at our new house. Gosh, can I still call it our new house? We have been here now for a year and a half, so I guess it's not like super new anymore. But anyway, my office, it's very dark and like, I love the vibe of it. It's like all dark wood and it's very moody and there's all these bookshelves and every time I come in I sort of feel like I should be like wearing a smoking jacket. It's just kind of got that vibe to it. But it is so, so dark. To the point where I had to get my first pair of reader glasses recently because my eyes are so tired from straining at the end of each day. So my husband for Christmas took me up to Seattle to Earthwise, which is this really cool architectural salvage store. And we found a beautiful vintage brass and crystal chandelier. And it's so pretty and it feels like it was meant for this room. And while I cannot say that it has made my office bright necessarily, it has definitely made a difference and I smile every time I walk in. And now turn it on. I am also so happy to be talking to today's guest. He has a specialist in English Literature from the University of Toronto and a Master's of Fine Arts in Creative Writing from the University of British Columbia and is the self proclaimed author of a number of quote, glitterature novels including the Player, I Got yout Babe. And Leon Levels up. His newest YA romance. Recommended Reading comes out later this month on January 28th. Please welcome Paul. Katja.

[02:26] Paul: Hi, Marissa. 

[02:30] Marissa: Hello, Paul. Happy New Year.

[02:32] Paul: Happy New Year.

[02:33] Marissa: Are you. Oh, what do they call it? Resolution. Are you a resolution maker?

[02:38] Paul: No. I'm so against them.

[02:40] Marissa: Are you?

[02:41] Paul: I always think people make them, they have the best intentions. And then two weeks in, well, there it went. So that's very true. I'm going to do it throughout the year and whenever I want.

[02:52] Marissa: Yeah, no, I think that's fair. It's funny, I do love this time of year and the feeling of newness and freshness and potential and, like, I definitely get that little burst of energy and get inspired to, like, deep clean my house and reorganize things. But the idea of resolutions is maybe a tiny bit flawed.

[03:13] Paul: Well, it's. It's great intentions, which is nice for people. It's. I'm gonna go to the gym. It's like, well, no, I have no intention to go to the gym. I know I would not.

[03:23] Marissa: If I didn't back in September, why would I now?

[03:27] Paul: And I'm one of those people where. Why would I lie to myself? I'm not really that way. I know I won't. Yeah. Let's eat this chocolate.

[03:36] Marissa: What about goals? Big goals, Big plans for the year 2025?

[03:41] Paul: I don't even. I think everyone's just planning to get through it, aren't they? I think that's been kind of the motto for the last few years.

[03:47] Marissa: Sadly, there can be days like that ever since. Maybe Covid, but I don't know. I'm such an optim. I'm. I'm like, I'm gonna put shutters on and ignore the bad things and just, like, focus on what I can control and what I can focus on.

[04:04] Paul: And I'm a little bit of. If I worry about it, then I'm gonna destroy myself. So I just. I'm like, let's see what it brings. Let's see what the adventure is.

[04:13] Marissa: Yeah, I think that's a good perspective. Everything is an adventure.

[04:18] Paul: And it's. It's. I think for a writer in their career, that can work really well because how often do our characters throw us a curve?

[04:26] Marissa: Absolutely. You gotta stay on your toes.

[04:30] Paul: And it's better that way. Sometimes it's. I thought things were going this way, but so much better this way.

[04:35] Marissa: Yeah, No, I agree 100%. I am. And we can talk about, like, planning and pantsing and all of that later. But when I do plan or Which I do, I'm an outline writer. But things do not always go according to plan. But it always ends up better for taking that detour.

[04:56] Paul: And sometimes it was. The other one was a little too obvious. And I find that sometimes it's the least obvious route that usually is more rewarding for the character and for the writer.

[05:09] Marissa: Yeah, no, I agree with that 100%. Okay. I do want to talk more craft with you, but we are getting ahead of ourselves. I've got two quick questions before we dive into your new book. First of all, glitterature. Is this a term that you made up, or is this, like, a thing.

[05:27] Paul: I made it up. And I was like, no one else did it. I was like, why hasn't someone done this before me? And I looked it up and could find no trace of it. So if I'm infringing on someone else's intellectual property, well, there's no trace of it online. So I made it up and it just stuck.

[05:45] Marissa: So tell people, what is Glitterature other than like the best word that we've all heard so far in 2025?

[05:53] Paul: I made it up for the book I got you babe, in which the main character is obsessed with Sharon, I thought, and very self assured. So it was an interesting character to write because I thought there's not a huge change. A character is so confident, walks into the book confident. But when I was promoting the book, I thought, it's so glittery and happy and hopeful and it's a queer kid. So it's queer. Joy is in the book, but we all experience joy. And I thought, well, glitterature sounds so sparkly and fancy. So I just started using it. And then my nephew for Leon levels up, which involves virtual reality gaming. He was, you should call it Glitcherature. And I'm like, I can't keep doing it. I gotta stick with Glitterature. It's really good.

[06:37] Marissa: Oh my gosh. That's also like really clever though. They both work so well.

[06:43] Paul: You know when you have a book and you've just given it that zhuzh and you go, it just makes me feel sparkly and good.

[06:48] Marissa: I love that. Early in my career, I used to listen to the song Razzle Dazzle from the Chicago soundtrack, like on repeat. And I kind of like thought of it as my, my writing pep Top theme song for like those days when I'm like, I don't think I'm a very good writer and I'm totally failing at this, but I'm just going to razzle dazzle this story as much as I can and maybe no one will notice. And so, like, I feel like the glitterature kind of plays into that same idea. Just razzle dazzle it.

[07:22] Paul: It's a great song too. I mean, the whole musical is really good.

[07:25] Marissa: It is really good. Okay, so my next question, before we talk about recommended reading, I want to hear your origin story. As a writer, did you always know you wanted to be a writer or how did you get here?

[07:40] Paul: When I was little, I love to read and I think a lot of us started that way. The only one I know who hasn't started that way is Heather Smith, who's a yam middle grade picture book author. She's amazing. She was the only person I know who said I hated books as a kid. I was busy. I love that for you. And it's hopeful to kids who may maybe aren't huge readers or avidly interested in that or they just haven't found the book that's grabbed them yet. So no, I love to. To read and be read to. And my mom really knew it and my dad, who's not a reader, read me comic books. And I thought I would be making comic books when I was little. But my mom's quite a realist and she was. Okay, you need to go to the back page. And those are all the people that actually worked on this. There's anchors, there's someone who drew it. There's a ton of jobs that go into making this. It's rare that someone would do it all on their own. So she kind of not killed the dream, but she was just very realistic about you need to know who's doing what in a book. And that was at 4 or 5 that she was going read the back page. I want you to be aware of this. So I just kept writing and I worked on art, although I think I'm not as strong an artist as I am a writer. And I just followed a path into writing and I went and did my master's mostly because I thought I might suck. I know that people are sometimes have lofty ambitions with education. I was like, no, I thought I might stink and need to get better. So that's why I pursued that. And I ended up learning so much because I went in thinking I didn't expect to get into this program. I'm just going to take risks and walk away with whatever I can. And even if I never get published, I know I tried hard and I know I tried to improve myself. And then 10 years later, it was my thesis advisor, Susan Juby, who said to me she was promoting a book called the Fashion Committee, which is a great book. You're getting the long winded answer too.

[09:41] Marissa: Yeah, no, I like a long winded answer. I like the details.

[09:44] Paul: So she said, will you write a blog post to promote this about a piece of clothing you own? So I wrote it. And then in my inbox, one of my former classmates who had been published, Brooke Carter, also a great writer. I got two emails back to back from her and I don't normally receive emails from her. And one was my editors asked me at Orca Books if you. If I know anyone who would Write a high low. High lows are high interest, low vocabulary books meant for either middle grade or teens who need something age appropriate but haven't develop the literary skills to read a ton of imagery or foreshadowing. They need a good story with good character. So she the first email was I'm going to recommend you. The second email was the editor already saw you on Susan's blog. She's interested in knowing you. And so she was get in contact today. Don't wait, just jump in. And so I've kind of led my career just jumping in and seeing what things, what happens. All my plans, which is probably why I'm not a planner. All my plans never worked out, so I'm like just jumping in. Did work out and then I was surprised what came out of it.

[10:51] Marissa: Okay, there's a 10 year gap in that story.

[10:55] Paul: Yep.

[10:57] Marissa: What were you doing during those 10 years?

[11:00] Paul: I had a career in the family business, which is insurance.

[11:04] Marissa: Oh, fun.

[11:05] Paul: So once you're in a family business and my dad is Italian, it's like you don't get out of the business. Luckily the business is insurance. And you know, I had two aging grandmothers, one who had a stroke and we were primary caregivers and the other who, you know, she was just getting older unfortunately. So they, I worked from home for those 10 years and took care of the house. My grandmother's worked in insurance successfully, tried to get published. Just nothing ever, nothing ever came of anything.

[11:37] Marissa: Okay. Were you working on novel manuscripts during that time or what were you doing writing wise?

[11:46] Paul: I had some novel manuscripts I was shopping around, had interest from a couple of agents, but they felt at the time and it was too edgy and too queer for the market now that said, my agent now has said to me with the the same manuscripts, I can sell these now. The market's changed.

[12:06] Marissa: Isn't that funny? Yeah. Is that the plan or do you have like this backlog now? Are we going to be seeing like six Paul Kacha titles coming out next year?

[12:15] Paul: Probably not because I'm not fast at revising and they do need an update. Over 10 years, things have changed, terminology has changed, there's things that need a revamp, but sometimes things like that happen. So I have stuff sitting there that's just wasn't able to move.

[12:31] Marissa: Yeah, no, I like that and I appreciate that part of the story because I think it's important for people to know that even if a book is getting rejected, even if a book never, you know, gets published, one you don't necessarily have to give up on it. Like you say, it may just not be right for the market right now or something has to change in, you know, the society, culture, blah, blah, blah. It might still have its day in the future. And even if that doesn't happen, we still learn so much from every project, regardless of whether or not it gets published.

[13:07] Paul: And I, well, with those projects, I thought they're seen as being quite edgy. And I'm going, I think these are quite tame, actually. Maybe edgy for the YA market. I wasn't willing to change things for an adult audience. I thought it was always a YA book, the one that is the most developed. I'd like to see it get out there. So fingers crossed that maybe there it will see the light of day and a publisher will go, I love it. It's just always what I wanted. Just needed time to stew.

[13:38] Marissa: Yeah, no, I hope so as well. Fingers crossed.

[13:41] Paul: And it's fun when those projects reappear, you go, I thought I was done with you, but turns out I was not.

[13:46] Marissa: Yeah, no. And it'd be interesting to go back and read it like you say, 10 years later, you'll have such a new perspective on it.

[13:56] Paul: Well, and, you know, things came up in those 10 years. One of the agents wanted me to pursue, like adult short stories. And I just knew it wasn't for me. I knew that it wasn't something I loved enough to get into. And he was very, if you do this, you do this, you do this. And I went, that's not the path I'm going to walk. I just know it already. It's not. That's bad advice. It's just not advice for me.

[14:19] Marissa: Mm. Well, I appreciate that you were able to follow your instincts and, and know who you were and kind of what you wanted creatively. Because I know for pre published authors, it can be really hard to get a piece of advice like that and go a different path. Because there is such a calling to be published, to see your name on something, to get a paycheck from your writing. Um, and it can be really hard if someone's saying like, this is a sure thing, but to listen to yourself and think, but what do I want? What kind of writer do I want to be? What do I want my career to look like?

[14:59] Paul: And he wasn't necessarily offering a sure thing. It was free advice, which is follow this path and then come back to me and we'll talk.

[15:07] Marissa: Yeah.

[15:08] Paul: Um, and it was interesting because everyone I met with kept going. I can tell you're a writer. And I went, okay, I don't know why you're saying that. And no one ever clarified, but we can tell you're a writer.

[15:18] Marissa: Okay, that's funny. I'm also curious about that. I wonder what they were picking up on.

[15:26] Paul: I don't know. Maybe it's something. They're going, okay, he's a bit odd.

[15:33] Marissa: This one seems strange. They must be a writer.

[15:36] Paul: Well, how many times are we around other writers? And I love every single one. But it's like the Muppet show where we all have great ideas and you're like, oh, you're a Fozzie Bear. We're all lovable, but we're all a bit off center.

[15:49] Marissa: No, it's true. It's a strange little passion that we fall into. But that's why I love talking to other writers. Because as much as I love the other people in my life, nobody really gets what it is that we're trying to accomplish here except for other writers. It's really difficult to try to explain what goes on in our head sometimes.

[16:08] Paul: And I love that about my dad and my older brother, who are very business minded, but they're not arts minded at all. So I'll say something to them. They're like, well, you should do this and this. And I'm like, yeah, in any other business, that would be great advice. Not this one.

[16:23] Marissa: Appreciate that you're thinking of me.

[16:25] Paul: Well, they mean so well and they want the best, but I'm going, yeah, it doesn't work like that.

[16:30] Marissa: Yeah, okay, so now here we are. And I actually. I don't. Didn't count. Is this your seventh book?

[16:38] Paul: I have to count on my fingers. I'm one of the people here online. I got you, babe. Leon levels up. Sixth.

[16:47] Marissa: Sixth book. Okay. And you mentioned that your career so far has been a little bit of just diving into it and kind of seeing where the path goes. And from what you mentioned before we started recording, it sounded like this project also kind of had that vibe. Do you want to talk a little bit about how this project came to be Sure.

[17:08] Paul: I. I will give a disclaimer. I think people should exercise better judgment perhaps, than I have with Internet safety, because I saw. I saw a tweet asking for a fat, queer male identifying author to work doing a YIP project, which is intellectual property. So someone's come up with an idea or story or premise, and they're going to hire someone else to write it. And I thought, okay, I'll just answer the tweet. That's, you know. And Perhaps a little cocky in my answer because I thought, it's already what I've been doing with my career. These are all things I hid and hold dear to my writing. So I thought all of a sudden, and I went, well, I am the children's author doing this. That's queer male and fat positive or body positive. So that was the answer I went into. And I went through an audition process that was a little bit mysterious. A lot of do not discloses that had to sign. And, you know, I signed them without reading them as carefully as I should. So another lesson to everyone, read more carefully than I do. But no, I went through the audition process and ended up writing this scene, which actually did end up in recommended reading. And it turns out that it was for Julie Murphy's new company, which is Bittersweet Books. So Julie is looking to promote new voices and other authors and to use her name and her notoriety to give people a leg up in the business and say her thing was, I think there's a lot of voices we haven't heard yet and a lot of stories that we could perhaps hear more from these people from these communities. And so she had this idea for a matchmaking book, loving, romance loving, fat character who's a teenager. He's 17. His name is Bobby, and he likes to matchmake. But he has a blind spot when it comes to himself. So he can read anything, include any book, any person, any situation, as long as he's not personally involved. And in that case, he gets it all wrong.

[19:11] Marissa: Okay, a couple questions based off that story. First of all, what is an audition process for an IP project? What does that mean?

[19:20] Paul: It's really fun, actually.

[19:22] Marissa: Did you go and, like, sing and dance?

[19:24] Paul: No, they wouldn't have hired me. Be like, well, I'm great in the shower. You should hear me there. I'll sing, you razzle dazzle.

[19:34] Marissa: That's right.

[19:37] Paul: No, it was. I got a sheet that was, here's the character. And there were some really great descriptors which came into play later, which, like, one of them was big Leo energy. And I'm like, oh, that's interesting. I know Leo's. And I know what you mean by that because I do get that sort of big energy from a lot of them. So I was, okay, this is who the character is. And it was one scene and they were. He. Here's all the marks we'd like you to hit in it. So it was the character. It's his first. He's ruined his future plans for the summer before College. He's admitted to a guy that he likes him, but the guy does not like him back. And he's been banished to this little used bookstore in the middle of nowhere. Can you get in a love interest into this chapter? And they didn't describe who the love interest was at all. And a crotchety co worker. And I was like, okay, great. I'll hit every mark. You've given me a checklist. I'll get it all in there. And it was not ten thousand. A thousand words.

[20:34] Marissa: Oh, wow.

[20:35] Paul: Hit all these. Here's your checklist. See how many you can get through. And I was. I will get every single one in there. If you ask me to tap dance, I will learn on the spot. I'm one of the people. So I just sent it back in. And actually it was the crotchety coworker that really got their attention. They went, your side characters are great. And I went, yeah, she's my wheelhouse. Yeah, Progeny. Any day I can do. I just love it.

[21:01] Marissa: I love that I have written on my notes here developing fun side characters. Gladys, exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. Because I love her.

[21:11] Paul: She's just who everyone wants to be when they grow up, isn't she?

[21:14] Marissa: She's wouldn't go that far. I will never be a Gladys, but I do admire a Gladys.

[21:22] Paul: Well, she's. For those who have not read the book yet, she is very direct. She's very confident in who she is. She puts up with no nonsense. But she's very equal opportunity in that even if she's said something against a character that you may like and you went, how could she be so awful to the main character or the secondary? She'll defend them in the next breath if she feels that's what's right. So I had fun with her. And she just, you know, she refuses to call the main character Bobby. She calls him Robert because she doesn't believe in nicknames. And I'm. Even though it's not a nickname, it's a short form.

[21:57] Marissa: Yeah. Okay. So back to.

[22:00] Paul: She was in the audition, Russell. She was. I think she got me the job. So. I will always love a Gladys.

[22:05] Marissa: I can see that. No, she's really great. So.

[22:12] Paul: So you want to write a book, but you just don't know where to start or the process feels overwhelming. The Storyteller's Weekly Journal is exactly what you need. Designed to walk you through idea development, all aspects of the writing process, and the creation of pitch materials. The Storyteller's Weekly Journal is a planner, craft book and a guided journal all in one. It's the writing coach, teacher and companion you need at your side every story, every time. The Storyteller's Weekly Journal is available wherever books are sold.

[22:48] Marissa: Writers before your next book is released, you need to check out session eight of the Author Advantage Series, a free 10 session course from Amplify Marketing Services. This 24 minute video includes Insider tips from an agency that has advertised over 25,000 books in the last five years. Learn which ad platforms can help boost your book launch and so much more@adformify marketers.com forward slash authors I'm curious. So this 1000 word chapter, I mean that's a tall order for a thousand words. How much of what you submitted made it into the final book?

[23:38] Paul: Everything. I think the love interest appears in a separate chapter, but almost everything that was in that chapter ended up in the final. I moved the I have to think about the names because they did change over the course of writing the character. Cindy moved out of that chapter and Luke, who's the love interest moved out of that chapter because I thought they needed more room to breathe. A thousand words was a lot of but the Gladys. All the Gladys stuff is as almost as it was written. There were commas change but they it just stayed the way it was.

[24:16] Marissa: And so then did they give you the book deal before you knew that Julie Murphy was running this show?

[24:25] Paul: I After the audition I met with Julie which as Julie was in your anthology as you know, she's I know.

[24:33] Marissa: I just for the record, we love Julie. She's so amazing.

[24:38] Paul: Everyone go read her book Episode on just a Julie Murphy love episode.

[24:41] Marissa: I know it really could. It could become that real fast but we won't.

[24:45] Paul: And she's she's brilliant, she's savvy, she's very. She's never mean to anyone at all but she's very direct and she's very this will work better. And she's got that business head on her and I appreciate that and I it's been a huge gift to get to watch someone like that just as they operate. Also great writer with great instincts and really has her finger on the pulse of what people want to read. So yeah, I think that's as concise a Julie Murphy love episode as I can do.

[25:14] Marissa: Yeah. So clearly she needed to start a publishing business. So yeah.

[25:19] Paul: And she signed it. So I worked for Julie and I was signed to her to write this project. We hoped it would sell to a publisher and XANDO projects got in contact and the editor, T.J. there, they just loved the prologue, which. Prologues are sticky, as you know, people tend not to like them. They love the prologue and they were just. I think this has promise. I think a lot of people will feel very seen by this story. So I'd love to take credit for, like, oh, you know, I had this great idea and no, it was Julie's idea. I have to give her credit. But she handed it to me and said, develop it.

[25:55] Marissa: So I have not had the opportunity to talk to a whole lot of writers working on IP projects. And I know that it varies widely as far as how much direction you're given, how much creative control the author is given. In your case, can you break down a little bit? Like you kind of said, Julie had this concept that then you were able to flesh. Out. How detailed was the concept? Did you. Was there an outline that you were working out of? Or was it really just boy jilted in love working at a bookstore, playing matchmaker Go.

[26:34] Paul: When I got the. Once I got past the audition and I had an interview with Julie and Julie, there was a contract and I was hired. I got a beat sheet. So the beat sheet was really the whole story. It was, this happens and this happens, but it wasn't broken down into a formal plot or chapter by chapter. And I am someone who has always sold on a pitch so far in my career. So I know what I like to do to develop a story and to get an editor to say, okay, you haven't written it, but on the promise that you will finish this, sign the book. So it's like I'm, you know. And that is not that unusual, I think, in our business. But it is harder to do than saying, I'm making you a promise that I'll deliver something and deliver something good. Yeah, at the end of the day. But you haven't seen it and you won't see it until it's time to edit it.

[27:27] Marissa: Right.

[27:28] Paul: So I wrote the first 30 to 40,000 words, and I think they ended up. By the time we arranged all our schedules, it was like two, three weeks that I had to write those words. So it was a little bit of. I know they're not going to be my best work, but I can get them down on the page for you. That's not a problem. Especially when you've cashed someone's check and you owe them a product.

[27:49] Marissa: That's a fast turnaround, though. That's a really tight schedule.

[27:54] Paul: I'm numbers driven, so I Just sat down and went, this is how much you have to do a day in terms of word count, and this is how much time you'll have to edit those words. And will it be perfect? No. And you're just going to have to accept that.

[28:08] Marissa: Yeah.

[28:08] Paul: But part of what I did as the preliminary work was I gave them a list of all the characters. And I like to do character breakdowns. And I usually do them bullet forms. Sometimes I'll doodle in the margins when I print out the pages. So I'm, here's who the character is. Here's their physical attributes, which I find very helpful because, you know, on page one, if I give them brown eyes, I don't want them on a page 130 to have green eyes. Also, things like, poor Julie had to answer questions like these by email. And I kept thinking, I'm probably so annoying, but I'm like, how tall is this character, do you think? Because especially in a romance, when you're looking at people and it's lovers looking at each other, I need to know how the gaze goes and the dynamics and the implied power, especially as they're struggling to come together. It's like height really do factor in for me. So if I want someone to feel taller, I might put them a few steps up than another character. It just. In my head, I need it.

[29:05] Marissa: Yeah, no, I get that 100%.

[29:07] Paul: And then there were things like Big Leo energy. So I'll go into character traits. With Bobby, I managed to boil it down to one word, which he's capital R, Romantic. So for his love interest, I thought the right balance was a capital R. Realist.

[29:23] Marissa: I love that.

[29:26] Paul: And I thought they kind of. One will. One has their head up in the clouds and the other has both feet firmly on the ground somewhere in the middle. They'll work out.

[29:35] Marissa: No. And I wanted to talk about that, actually was one of the things that I wrote down in my notes here is this. You know, so often in writing romance, we talk about trying to write and create two characters who complement each other in some ways, but also challenge each other in some ways. And I felt like Bobby and Luke were a really great example of that, that dynamic.

[30:05] Paul: And it really just. I like characters who balance each other out. I know you could do it like Heathcliff and Catherine, and they bring out the worst in each other. It's not what I did, though, although I love that Wuthering Heights is one of my favorite romance books. I just love the passion of that one. And I went, but they really do Bring out the bad side in one another.

[30:28] Marissa: No. Oh, totally.

[30:29] Paul: Yeah.

[30:30] Marissa: It's a totally different kind of romance.

[30:33] Paul: Yes. With this one I was. This is a. It was sweeter. I always felt Bobby was Emma. Bobby had had everything he really wanted up until that point when he sunk all his future plans. So he was very blessed in that Emma like way where it's like Emma had every benefit that could and could afford her.

[30:56] Marissa: And again, meddling.

[30:57] Paul: They're meddlers and benevolent meddlers.

[31:00] Marissa: Yes.

[31:02] Paul: They always mean really, really well, but they lack that self awareness piece that makes for a really great comedic romance.

[31:08] Marissa: I think I wanted to back up a little bit because you talked about the prologue briefly and how it was potentially the power of this prologue that helped to sell the book to a publisher. I love this opening chapter in part because it is one of the cringiest things that I think I've ever read. It's so painful, but like just gets right to your heart, right? You just feel so bad for this poor character. And I'm wondering, like, is this a scene that came to you fully formed, out of your imagination, or is it a scene that you, like, had to revise and revise and we're going to make it even worse now. Okay, how can I push it even further? Like, what was the. The story of this chapter?

[32:01] Paul: I. So in the original concept, the novel would begin and there wasn't. Everything would have been very distantly in the past. So the novel kind of began very far into Media Res, where Bobby is getting at the used bookstore. And I went, we all decided it needed a little bit of Julian team. We all decided collectively it needed a little more preamble before we got there. But it kept referring to this huge event where the main character sinks his future hopes and it would be revealed to the reader bit by bit. Which I was like, okay, that's really a good thing to do, but what's the payout for the reader? And Julie had said to me, so he makes a grand confession of people's love. We don't know what this grand gesture is to the guy he likes. We know things go bad and he ends up breaking the campus bookstore window. So that was kind of the direction I was given. It's. Everything goes bad, he ends up breaking a window. And I went back to my old writer training from the master's degree and it's how can you make your character suffer more? And I decided we just needed a whole prologue with it and argued. Not an argument, but argued the case for the prologue. To exist at all. Because people typically do not love prologues in publishing. I've noticed they think it's. And I agree with them. In many cases, things are extraneous to the story. This was not extraneous. And I didn't think there was any purpose to revealing it slowly to the reader. I actually thought that would annoy the reader, that they would just go, you keep referring to something. Just show me what happened. So I said, well, let me write it, because I think I have to write this scene regardless. I think at some point, we have to show the reader what happens in real time. But I'll write as a prologue, and if it really does not land, we'll cut it out and we'll reuse the scene later in the novel. So that was kind of how I got my argument in for it. But when they saw the scene, everyone went, no, no, it has to be there.

[34:12] Marissa: No, I agree with that 100%. And I think that's a good. Maybe a yardstick for writers who are like, I kind of like my prologue, but I don't know if it works. Like, is it necessary? Is a really good question to ask. What do I lose if I take away this prologue from, you know, what comprehension am I going to lose from my readers? What are they going to be missing out on versus what does it add? What is it bringing to the table?

[34:44] Paul: And I really did think the readers would get annoyed by always referring to an event that they hadn't been shown. Yeah, it's too big an event.

[34:52] Marissa: True. No, I think you absolutely made the right decision. And it is a really strong, strong opening scene and just sets the tone for so much. It shows us who Bobby is. What does he care about? It shows us what he's. I mean, it really sets up so much of the story. It's hard to imagine it without it.

[35:14] Paul: I just knew that scene had to end up somewhere in it. So whether I wrote it at the beginning or I used it later in, like, chapter 25, just to pick a number, it had to be somewhere.

[35:25] Marissa: Yeah.

[35:25] Paul: It was too big an event in this story arc for me to leave out. And I. It is that respect for the reader. It's. Are we stealing something from them they should have seen?

[35:36] Marissa: Right. Yeah. And it can be. It's a. It's a delicate thing to walk sometimes. Having things that you want to withhold from the reader and, you know, kind of a little mystery element. You want them to be intrigued. You want them to be curious. That keeps readers turning the pages. But you're Right. It can be a really fine line between now the writer is just playing with me, and I'm not on board with that.

[36:00] Paul: And I. I don't know. I consider teen readers very sophisticated. A lot of them, because if you're reading books, you develop a set of skills that makes you quite bright. When you keep referring to something that happened as an author and you're trying to tease it out, and I'm going, but did the reveal ever pay off? You know, I'm used to a drag show where they take off the ruffle coat and there's a stunning outfit underneath. So that's my standard for a reveal. I want a stunning ruffle coat. When it drops, everyone goes. I don't want it to be like, you know, Gypsy Rosalie. You show a little shoulder.

[36:37] Marissa: Okay. The other thing that I really wanted to talk about is banter and writing dialogue. There is so much fun banter in this book. Banter between our love interest Bobby and Luke. Banter with Gladys, the curmudgeonly store employee that we all just adore. There's banter with the mom character, the best friend. Like, there's just. The dialogue is just, like, tasty. I loved it. What. What is your method, or how do you. How do I ask this? If someone is listening to this and they really want to nail great banter in their novel, what would you recommend they do?

[37:18] Paul: So there are a few things that I'm gonna get, like, technical nuts and bolts here.

[37:23] Marissa: I love technical nuts and bolts.

[37:25] Paul: Thank you. Great. When you write it, it's always action and reaction. But I think sometimes the initial action is actually a reaction to start with. So we can get into that if we need to, but it's the back and forth. So it's like, you say something, they say something. But if one person's really quippy, you either need someone who kind of brings them back down or who's able to keep up with it. But I find in a lot of dialogue when I'm reading it, people talk in too long sentences. They say too much. There's a full paragraph, and then the person responds. And I went, no one ever responds to a full paragraph spoken to. They choose one or two elements, and they respond to that. So if you're. If you like that back and forth, cut down your paragraphs into sentences, distill them. Be aware when you do drop a full paragraph if you fully need it. And then when you think about the next character's reaction, that character is only going to focus on one or two things they Won't address the rest of the sentence. The rest of the sentence is for the reader and it's for the character who's saying it. Because the fact that they said it means it's important to them. So really, sentence lengths, paragraph length, the back and forth. And you can actually look at the page when you have it in front of you and you can see who's talking too much.

[38:45] Marissa: Okay. On a really similar line of question, talk to me about writing a love confession dialogue. Because the love speech, it's good.

[38:59] Paul: The one in the prologue or the one at the end?

[39:02] Marissa: The one at the end. And I'm trusting that it's not a spoiler because this is a rom com. So, like, people know it's not a.

[39:09] Paul: Rom trage, which is not a big. Like, it's a romantic tragedy, actually. They will be dead by morning. It was at the point when the characters came together, I thought, I don't love books where you have a character. Like, I think the right character is a really great example. And so you'll see someone like that in what is the Bronte book with the maid that people love. Not Wuthering Heights.

[39:41] Marissa: Jane Eyre.

[39:42] Paul: Yes. Thank you. I couldn't remember. It's like, I didn't earn my degree very well, did I? No. With Jane Eyre, she comes out of this tradition of governess novels. And the really interesting thing about Jane Eyre is it's a gothic one. So it gets into female psychology in a really interesting way. That, to me, is really interesting to read. But it comes out of this tradition where it's always this guy who's been a cad and who walks that line of being really a huge latch. And then by the end of the novel, they redeem him. And it's always like the love of a good woman's redeemed him. And I thought, that's not what I want to write as a rom com. I want the characters to kind of see each other as they are in the moment, with warts and all, and say, you're still the one I want. I've seen the worst of you, perhaps, but I'm willing to see even worse and look into you. So when I was writing that, I was thinking, what does the main character need to hear? And how does the love interest see the main character in that moment? Because they should see the main character fully and not be expecting change. But I also thought in that moment, I've strung the reader along in some ways, but I've asked them to agree to come along on this journey with Me. And it's always been the payout of that big moment. So the feelings had to be big, the passion had to be big. I think there's only one kiss in the whole book between the two the main characters. It had to pay out for the reader. So it's always. I think about the reader a lot, apparently.

[41:20] Marissa: Yeah. No, and that's.

[41:22] Paul: I didn't fully realize either.

[41:24] Marissa: And I think especially in romance, the idea of the payout, because that's what the reader is there for, is for that moment. The love confession, the speech, the kiss, the happily ever after. And when romance really nails that moment and gives you those fluttery feelings, like that's what you're going for. And this one, I just adore, adored that scene.

[41:56] Paul: And if you're dealing with romantic tropes, which I was dealing with, you can play with them a little bit. So I went, what does the reader expect in that big moment? Like the end of the movie when there's the crescendo? So there things I thought about is you should have an all is lost moment right before that so that it heightens the drama of that moment.

[42:17] Marissa: Yeah.

[42:19] Paul: So go. If you're going to write one as a writer, I would suggest go and look at your favorite films like Dirty Dancing. What makes that dance seem so good? Yeah, and it's the lift. Is not what makes it so good. It's part of what makes it so good. It's the speech, it's the walking in, all of it leading up to that point is just absolutely delightful. Or I love the Sound of Music when it's the will they, won't they? And then they end up in the gazebo together. But the dance sequence is actually really good before that, where they do the Austrian folk dance because all the tensions in that scene. So people can go and look at things they know and they can say, oh, these are all the things I love. But it does take analyzing, which people don't always love to do. Especially if they hold something dear and sacred almost. It's like if I analyze it, I start to take the magic away. You won't. You'll just appreciate it more for the artistry behind it.

[43:19] Marissa: No, I think it's good to peek behind the curtain sometime because we are trying to create that. We are trying to create those same emotions in our readers that some of our most beloved stories or books or movies created in us. And I think that that's a really good answer to take a look at. Why? Why does this make me feel the way that it does.

[43:42] Paul: Or conversely, why didn't this land for me?

[43:44] Marissa: What would I change?

[43:46] Paul: But there needs to be that sort of. People bear their souls in those moments where you have a confession. And I think for the reader to buy into it, the character really has to be vulnerable. And people don't typically love being vulnerable. So you have to think about that for your characters too. They probably don't love this moment, but they're gonna go through with it anyway.

[44:07] Marissa: Hmm. Okay, Are you ready for our bonus round?

[44:12] Paul: Absolutely.

[44:13] Marissa: What book makes you happy?

[44:17] Paul: So I just finished listening to the audiobook of this and it has made me really happy over the holidays. It was a follow up to yours and Joanne Levy's Let It Glow. But Jason June released Flopping in a Winter Wonderland. It's absolutely delightful. About two grinches in a rom com and they're stuck in a Christmas theme park. So. And Jason June reads it, which I love. Jason June as a narrator. He just nails it every time.

[44:45] Marissa: So fun.

[44:46] Paul: It's really good because it's characters who are kind of stuck in the. You can see the Hallmark movie elements of a romance at play, and they both are just incredibly resistant. And over it, they're just like, this is not true.

[45:02] Marissa: That's got me written all over it. I love that. What are you working on next?

[45:08] Paul: So I have a picture book coming out in 2026 which has been really interesting. It's called the Bear Fairy and I think it's a universal story about a fat, hairy fairy who this little boy finds who wants to find a beautiful fairy in the bomb of potato chip bag. And the fairy just wants to be left alone to eat chips. So that's the universal element is leave me alone. I like potato chip.

[45:33] Marissa: And I'm sorry, are you author and illustrator?

[45:37] Paul: Their illustrator is Fred Blunt, who's a UK based cartoonist and illustrator. So he's really doing a great thing. I don't think I have the chops for illustration. I think I really respect the illustrator so much that I know and see what they're able to do and how they can tell a story picture to picture. And I thought, ooh, if I ever tried that, I would need a lot of years of work to get where they are. They're just so good at what they do.

[46:02] Marissa: Oh, it's so true. That sounds so great. So fun. I love the premise and congratulations on switching into a new genre. That's exciting.

[46:10] Paul: It was a surprise. I thought I wrote it and I didn't expect it to go anywhere, so.

[46:16] Marissa: Well, Congratulations.

[46:17] Paul: Another. It's like a ten year thing. It's like, oh, I wrote it. I'll never see the light of day on this one.

[46:22] Marissa: You just never know sometimes. Lastly, where can people find you?

[46:29] Paul: So I am on social media, Pauljkacha is my handle and my website is paulkotja.com awesome Paul.

[46:39] Marissa: Thank you so much for joining me.

[46:41] Paul: Thank you for having me and thank everyone for listening. It's been a great pleasure to be invited onto your podcast readers.

[46:50] Marissa: I hope you will check out recommended reading. It comes out later this month but is available to pre order today. Of course, we encourage you to support your local indie bookstore if you can, but if you don't have a local indie, you can check out our affiliate store@bookshop.org shop marissamyer Next week I'll be talking with Tricia Tobias about her debut horror novel, Honeysuckle and Bone. Please leave us a review and follow us on Instagram happywriter Podcast and don't forget to check out our merchandise on Etsy. Until next time, stay inspired, keep writing and whatever life throws at you today. I hope that now you're feeling a little bit happier.