Todd Norian ~ The Tantra Revolution: Riding the Wave of Spiritual Transformation

Todd Norian is a prominent yoga instructor and author, renowned for his teachings in the field of Tantra Yoga and his authentic approach to spiritual growth. As the founder of the Ashaya Yoga method, he encourages a heart-centered, integrative practice that fosters physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being. With over 40 years of experience in yoga and music, Todd's journey has been significantly influenced by his studies with various gurus, as well as his deep exploration and teaching of Anusara Yoga. His memoir, "Tantra: Journey to Unbreakable Wholeness," reflects his life's work and personal transformation.

Visit Todd here: https://www.ashayayoga.com/

Key Takeaways:

• Todd Norian's transformative journey in yoga began in 1980, leading to a lifelong commitment to spiritual and personal growth.
• Tantra is about embracing connection and vulnerability, encouraging individuals to face life's challenges with acceptance and compassion.
• Todd discusses the importance of navigating betrayal and disappointment as pathways to personal awakening and empowerment.
• The practice of Tantra involves a celebration of both the joys and terrors of life, highlighting the spiritual revolution of connection.
• Todd's teachings integrate the five elements, emphasizing balance and harmony between body, mind, and spirit for holistic well-being.

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Chapters

• 0:02 odd Norian's Journey From Music to Yoga and Spirituality
• 7:19 Transforming Betrayal Into A Journey Of Awakening
• 15:06 Embracing Duality and Vulnerability in Tantra's Revolutionary Path
• 18:27 Embracing Tantra and Overcoming Skepticism
• 21:12 Finding Wholeness Through Tantra and Present Moment Awareness
• 25:16 Self-Reflection and Overcoming Childhood Abandonment
• 28:32 Embracing Imperfection and Finding Joy in Tantric Philosophy
• 35:04 Exploring Tantra and Renunciation in Spiritual Paths
• 45:08 Embracing Vulnerability and Emotional Agility Through Tantra
• 55:32 Embracing the Journey and Finding Purpose on the Ship
• 57:13 Embracing Kundalini Awakening and Transforming Fear into Joy
• 1:03:09 Kundalini Awakening and Its Transformative Power
• 1:07:56 Embodying the Five Elements Through Tantra and Yoga
• 1:11:40 The Sacred Journey of Yoga and Universal Connection

Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast, so happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage, body work and beyond. Follow us at @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast Today, my guest is Todd Norian. He's an internationally acclaimed yoga teacher, and he's the founder of Ashaya yoga. Visit him on his website, ashayayoga.com and pick up a copy of his book, Tantra Yoga Journey to Unbreakable Wholeness, a memoir. Fasten your seat belts. Let's begin. I'm really happy to have this opportunity to bring Todd Norian to the podcast. Todd is the author of a book called Tantra Yoga journey to unbreakable wholeness, a memoir and Todd, I've been seeing you over the years, and I've heard about you. I've been seeing post over the years, and it's really a pleasure and an honor to have this opportunity to meet and speak with you. Can you tell me how is your day going? What sort of revelations have you had today? Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you, and it's a delight to be here. And I'm just enjoying getting to know you and the conversation. And I am currently doing an Ayurvedic cleanse. I'm in day four, and I'm starting to feel really, really good, you know. So I feel lighter in my body. I feel open. I had an incredibly beautiful and deep sadhana yoga practice this morning. And regularly I do some inversions like handstand and form balance and all that. And today I kicked up enhancing light as a feather. So I really like that, and it just tells me, like, Okay, I'm aligned with like, my body, mind and heart are all lined up. I don't feel much stress at all. I'm not resisting life. I'm just flowing with the present moment and trying to change with the changes, you know. Oh, yeah. How many years have you been engaged in yoga practice in relation to your mind? Recognizing there's a word called Yoga, there's a thing called Yoga. That's a great question, just how you phrased it well. I started yoga in 1980 so I was going to school in South Miami at Coral Gables, University of Miami, nice. I switched there from University of Michigan, so I was a music major in classical piano performance, and kind of flunked out of that. And because I love jazz, and I found the jazz school that was great, which Miami had had, one that I think they're still pretty high ranked school for jazz. And right across the street from the university was a yoga studio. And I had just seen a friend in the summer break before that. He was back from college. I was back from college. Hadn't seen in a long time, and he was radiant, glowing. I said, What are you doing? And he said, I do yoga. And he said, I am doing it at the Kripalu center. Says, Kripalu? What? And he said, Yeah, if it's in Pennsylvania, that's before they moved to their current location in Stockbridge mass. Yeah, if you ever, you know, come through, just call me up and you can come and visit me. So he planted the seed of yoga. I didn't even know what it was. And then I transferred down to Miami, and sure enough, when I saw there was a yoga class, I went and, you know, it was in so much pain, like I'm so stiff at was that I still parts are stiff. And so it was like, after this torturous class, we did shavasana, which is, course, like at the end of the class, and tears just exploded out of me. And I was gonna what is going on here, but the environment. Was right. They had incense. They dim the lights. They were playing. I'll never forget the music, because I'm, you know, like was a music major. I was very sensitive to vibration. And it was this piece by a call from Paul Horn called inside the Taj Mahal, which is recorded in India, is just solo flute inside this huge, you know, Temple, and it had all the overtones like, I don't know if your audience is gonna understand what that is, but all the jazz harmonies come from the root sound of a tone, and all these subtler vibrations that that exist in the sequence of what makes the sound a sound were there, and I'm listening to this and going, this is like the intersection of jazz music, beauty and relaxation. And it was the first time ever that I relaxed, and I came into this space of total acceptance, like I wasn't trying to achieve, I wasn't trying to become anyone in the music field, you know, even now, but I think back then, especially, it was so cutthroat, even though, oh, it's so relaxing to play music. No, it was like Doggy Dog, you know, competition, getting into the best bands and getting chosen to, you know, you know, travel around with these big Jazz Orchestra. They would come and pick the university students out. You know, that's how Maynard Ferguson picked his band, and Buddy Rich and all these older, you know, jazz bands, when they were touring, they would come to the schools and get these guys that to it for free. But anyway, it was just a culmination for me. And it was the first time I actually felt the presence of beingness, just just existence itself. It was so ecstatic. And that was it. That was it. I can imagine, if that kind of first experience, I can see why you're still practicing 45 years later, down the track. And then from there, I went to I did finally visit my friend. I was driving from Miami up to Rochester to go to the Eastman School of Music because they had a jazz program in the summer. And as I was coming back, I realized I'm going right through Pennsylvania, so I called my friend and I went to a 10 day retreat and stayed for 13 years. Whoa. Well, tell me about that. What do you mean? What kind of retreat center was it that you could all of a sudden stay for 13 years? What are we talking meditation, yoga? Well, it was Kripalu center back when it was really legitimately an ashram with, you know, guru at the head practices. It was an intentional community, and they offered programs and services, you know, to the public while living a healthy lifestyle and learning the yoga practices. Whoa, so you're with Amrit Desai then, yes, and during the whole, the whole thing, yeah, that's why I had to write this book. And it wasn't just the Kripalu thing, where I was there from the inception of it well after the inception, but early on anyway, until it blew up, and then I practiced Anusara yoga with John friend who I still absolutely love and respect. But the same kind of founder scandal happened and that community blew up. So two communities blew up, the betrayal that I felt, the sadness, the loss, the grief and but if it wasn't for those two experiences, I would not have said, Okay, that's it. I'm going to create my own method I create you'll see in the logo in the back is a shy which means a bow to the heart. So it's like I needed, sort of to get to the that lowest level of suffering, in a way, to finally rise up and and overcome my my shyness, my unworthiness. I talk all about in my book how. I mean, I had a fairly decent childhood, but there was so much shame involved in it, and a part of my journey, like I say, journey to unbreakable wholeness, I was broken with a feeling of, I'm just not enough. I'm not good enough. I flunked out of classical piano performance. I didn't get into the number one jazz band when I was there, and I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, so I played gigs, and I did that sort of commercial, you know, music which all the jazz artists were doing there to make a living in Miami, playing Bar Mitzvahs weddings. And it was a crazy world, but it's like, no, I I. Something opened up in me that said, I have something to offer, and I'm going to do it. And I just taught recently about the fire of tapping into our potential. Like, have you tapped into your potential yet? And when I asked myself that, I said, No. Like, I don't think I have, but it took the fire to actually embrace the hurdles that I had growing up, and I talk about from losing two communities and all that, to be able to come back into my heart and say, No, I have this gift. I have this to offer, and then do it. It takes fire to change our lives, you know, and to keep walking in the direction of our heart. And I feel like that's, that's the journey for me, and it's joyous and terrifying. Yes. Wow, great, great summary. And I mean, should we keep going? I mean that that was probably enough right there for all of us to be like, I think you're hitting the nail on the head. I mean, one, one thing that I have to just bring to the point right away is that, prior to our conversation, you made a great little aside when I emailed you, you said, Yeah, from one Todd to another. And I just kind of laughed when I read it. And I thought it is funny that, you know, we have the same name. So prior to coming in here, I just thought, all right, so this idea of the order me, like the cosmic consciousness that we hear about in, say, tantra yoga, and if you know, what, if there was another version of me out there somewhere, you know, on some level. And then, and then, and then we, as we start getting into understanding that we all are that same person in some way, shape or form, just coming into it through like a, like this individuated consciousness sort of thing. And then, so I've also been through two community scandals, first with Bikram, and then with the stronger, you know, staying with Bikram in LA and with Toby Joyce and Mysore and and having the same realization that you're talking about of like the hurt. Can I even move forward here? And what? What do I have to move forward with if the examples I've been just shown were not of a harmonious type of experience and and so I love hearing that you kind of pulled yourself up and said, I can do this, and I can represent from my heart what is true to me. And I'm and I'm also guessing I get the feeling from you that there's a certain level of ethics that you're wanting to ride with. My Yeah, I learned intrinsically just from being on the other end, the pain of the dysfunction, you know, at the top, and it's the dysfunction that hurt, but it's also the double life, you know, the lying out front to create an image of greatness while living just out of integrity behind, like, I don't know what kind of personality can live in two states at the same I definitely cannot, you know. So it is maintaining ethics, but there's so much in this, because in Tantra, boundaries are bendable, and boundaries expand barriers. When you're just so rigid and there's the barrier, they preclude growth like there's no growth in a barrier. So the Tantra is always going to help us set the boundaries, but then really look in and discern the nuances of context and situation and all that. So it's I it's just a very interesting idea about ethics, yes, and there are degrees of nuance that might make someone make a different decision. So, like, I understand, you know, but being at the effect of that felt such a deep sense of betrayal. Now, some people feel betrayed, and they close their heart forever. They live a life of resentment, you know, and that never ends well. It's just like eats away at us from the inside. And I think, you know, I say to my students, raise your hand if you haven't been betrayed. Nobody over 50 raises their hands. Okay, all right. I mean, what I'm saying is the younger ones like they'll raise their I haven't been betrayed yet. I said, okay, just wait. How old are you? 21 okay, just wait. And I don't mean that as a negative forecast, but I'm just saying I think betrayal is what the heart must. Just go through to mature and to be on its journey more authentically. So here's the difference. I shifted betrayal from an impasse to a rite of passage. And I think having this context, and this is partly what I write in my book, it's part of the tantra that I teach everything in life is for our awakening. And when I can take 100% responsibility for myself and say and really mean those words, everything in life is for my awakening, then how was that betrayal for me for my awakening? It takes the blame off them. I'm not condoning poor actions and people that abuse other people. You know, I do know that hurt people. Hurt people. I do know that there's, there's an intensity of shame that I can't even imagine, of what's going on for them, either from their childhood or past lives or whatever. We're all just trying to do the very best we can, you know, with good intentions, but how can we embrace the hurdles that come our way? And instead of being knocked down with this attitude, obstacles become opportunities, stumbling blocks become stepping stones, and what you think of is a setback is really a setup for a comeback, and this is how I've been able to maintain my joy. And it's not a superficial joy. It's joy that embraces the grief and the sadness of the loss. It is the embrace of light and shadow, the full spectrum, and this is that unity consciousness, like, yeah, we're one, but in Tantra, it's a unit. It's, it's, it's non dual that is so united, it embraces diversity. It's so full, it includes lack. It's so perfect. It includes imperfection. So another way to define sort of like this, not to this non dual is the word Advaita, which means not to. And it's the word used to describe Vedanta. Advaita, Vedanta meaning the non dual path of the Vedas, you know, and in the tantric interpretation of that word, Advaita, they shift it from Advaita to advaya. And advaya means never without duality. I see, it's a unity that has to embrace the polarities of life, the ups and downs, the full spectrum, instead of what we see as difference is is Maya is an illusion. You're making a mistake, you know, like we really are one and we're not two. And Tantra is saying, well, we agree with the non duality of everything, but difference is real. It's not a mistake, you know, it's everything material. Reality is the expression of the divine desire to know itself. So Shakti, Shiva can't even be perceived without Shakti. You know, Shiva is Shakti space, and the only way we can experience sort of the the vastness of consciousness, which is really what what Shiva represents, is through her. You can't get to him except going through her. And it's just a whole metaphor that says that our humanity is our divinity. And this is from Christopher Wallace. This is as God as it gets, you know, but, but, but, how do we actually live that? So it's not a concept. And here's how Tantra, the revolution in Tantra, is about connection, and it's about turning towards ourself, towards life, towards the world right now, in the world, like politics, economy, so many people just want to turn away, and, you know, stick our heads in the dirt, but the Todd are saying, No, you can't do that. You need to walk towards it. And, you know, we think of to be successful. Success is a win, lose game, basically. But in Tantra, success is defined as vulnerability. Can you be vulnerable and connection? And that's the revolution. That's what's different, and the vulnerability comes back to a level of acceptance that really is infused with surrender. What is surrender? Is acceptance of what is as it is. That's a big leap for a lot of people. That's a big. Sleep, isn't it, but at the same time as I listen to it's so obvious. It's so obvious, like it just seems like staring me in the face. You know more and more so lately, you know why? Why was I? Why? Where did my skeptical mind? Lately, I've been really trying to embody this idea of open minded skepticism. Keep the open mind, but I also want to investigate, and I want to test and see like I don't want to just take it that you told me. I want to see if that's true for me, you know. And so I guess when I saw that one of your first chapters before I say what the name of the first chapter is, and I won't use any names here, just to be kind to everybody I went to, I went to a Tantra workshop, and I had this initial idea that it was going to be like some weird sex thing, you know, because that was the only idea that came into my mind from other people, was like, that was the first response when I would use the word or heard the word, it was like, it's associated with this. So then I was like, What am I walking into? Is this going to be something that I don't feel comfortable in, and how will I respond when I get there and I'm not comfortable, and all the stuff that we do in our heads when we're trying to learn something new, maybe. And so I had barriers, you know, I I wasn't, but I was but I was curious, but I also had already put up a like a, this is how I'm gonna be. I already knew how I was going to be. And um, and so it's been a journey, I guess. I guess want to ask you to now where I'm like, going, Wow, there's so much wisdom in this, in this lineage, lineages, or in this viewpoint, or so I guess what I would like to ask you is, um, for the person that is listening with their core skeptic, their skeptical mind, which I think is very important to have, if I didn't have my skeptical mind, I don't know I'd be where I am right now. So I I think it's important. But what? How do you talk to the skeptic beyond what you just said to help assuage any fear and nervousness about embarking on an idea of potential realization that I am the Divine. I am a manifestation of Divine Consciousness. Well, I think a doorway that most everyone is looking for is the idea that you're already whole and complete, just as you are inside, and that what we need to do is bring our awareness into the present moment with acceptance and so much of the time we're harsh on ourselves. We're the harsh critic of ourselves, and most of the time we're either resisting life or we're existing three feet out in front of ourselves, which produce a lot of anxiety. I'm afraid of what's coming. I'm afraid of what's around the corner. I'm afraid of what I cannot see, you know, or we're living in a state of regret about something we said or did in the past. We're carrying a heavy weight behind us that pulls us and you know, from my perspective, that's not a good use of past, present and future, you know, but we do it. So the tantra I teach is, how do you find the place in the middle? How do you come back to the place in the present moment? And it's just through understanding that regret is subtly, our way of changing the unchangeable, you know. Well, if I can regret it enough, maybe it will change and that underneath all of that is really the source of all suffering, is wanting what we don't have or not wanting what we have. Those two things this long for something more to complete me, because I'm lacking or what I have. I really don't like what I have, so I want to get out of it. So either running towards something or running away from something, and remember, it's this. And I'm saying Tantra is this. Tantra is connection. So, you know, we have discomfort with discomfort. You know, nobody likes discomfort. Then I'll say, Okay, come into pigeon pose like like, in a way, the yogi, if we're doing Asana, we are training ourselves to bring comfort to our discomfort on a surface level, physical level. But I do that also emotionally. And I think this is how to. People can understand the Tantras through our body, through our emotions. You know, because nobody wants to suffer, nobody wants to be in pain. We are all naturally longing for freedom from suffering. That's what brought me to yoga class. I didn't really even know that. That's what I was looking for. But ultimately, that was it. I think a lot of people come to yoga when they've suffered a lot, they they don't have anything left to do. It's like, well, I've tried everything else. Let me try this yoga. So, you know, I don't jump to we're all gods and goddesses in disguise. You know, Hafiz, the great mystic poet, says, We're all we're all gods and goddesses in drag. But it's too it's too big of a leap. So I try to just invite people into a Tantra, tantra as a weaving. That Tantra means to loom, which is to connect, to weave together, to integrate body, mind and heart. But Tantra also means to expand. It's itself and its opposite. It's we. We pull in in order to expand. We create the boundary, in order to expand the boundary. And then, you know, if I see I'm teaching and I see like they're nodding their head a lot, like they're with me, they're with me, then I might jump to something like this, like, you know, the the universe chose to limit itself in you as you in order to see itself. And then people go, what does that even mean? It's good, though, that's good. Yeah, you haven't seen your own face with your eyes like your eyes have never seen your face. You can't Your eyes have only seen the reflection of you. You look in a mirror, you see yourself. It's not you, it's a reflection. Or we have friends, they reflect back to us who we are. You know, I'm in a relationship now, but I'm not married. But when I was married, I would say, if you really want to see yourself, just get married, like just have a committed relationship and stay there. You'll see, I promise you'll see more about yourself than you ever cared to know. No, and now I'm back in a beautiful relationship now, and I welcome the reflection like show me, you know, and we do that for each other, just it's so beautiful. So yeah, and when we take sort of the universe, which think of it as an infinite domain. You take a piece of the infinite from the infinite, that piece is still infinite, you know. So we are the condensed version Earth is Sky condensed. We are the limited version of the Unlimited, universal vastness of all that is and in order to see itself, it has to make itself small. It has to separate itself, you know, and this, this is really good, because abandonment is one of my issues from childhood, you know, just, you know, I remember when I was too, like my parents handing me off to a babysitter, so they go out to dinner, just looking very simple. This happens all the time in families. Crying my eyes out. I thought, No, I don't want to let you both go. And I recently had a revelation meditation. I was clinging onto a rope. It was like, you know, the climbing ropes from Jim. We were little. I was clinging so tightly. And I entered from my adult self, I entered into the into the meditation, and I saw this younger, less revolved part of me, and I said, What are you clinging to? And instantly it was, I don't want to lose my parents, you know, because I'll I don't know I'll die. I'll feel lonely, but it was like I was holding on for my life. And I said, well, they may have left you, but I'll never leave you. I'm here. Look at me, and this little boy me, part of myself, looked up into my eyes, and our eyes locked, and I felt him myself release the grip of the the attachment to getting love in a certain way, and I just turned and I embraced and I saw in my meditation, I was embraced myself, and it was just it was so beautiful. It's like a part of myself that was sort of leaking power with this fear of abandonment and it it would show up in my life in different ways, you know, but but now knowing that I'm never going to leave myself, it gives me more stability, more security, more confidence. Yes, you know, Wow, that's good. That was good. Great. That's what I mean by Tantra. The revolution is to connect and to know all parts of ourselves so that we can embrace them all. Every part of ourselves has a seat at the table. You know, that's another ton of teaching everything belongs, just a matter of where you place it. You know, dirt inside the house is Dirt. Dirt outside the house is soil. It's supposed to be outside. You know, we don't eat from the compost pile, but there are critters that are eating from the compost pile. We put compost on the garden. We eat from the garden, you know? So Tantra is, where do you place things? Because everything belongs. So, you know, I say there's three Tantra questions. I try to live by these questions. Number one, what does your heart most deeply desire? Most people don't know you know, yes and like, Well, what do you desire? What do you want? I don't know. What is your heart most deeply desire? Like, what is your purpose? What is your gift? We all have something to what is the value of that for you? Because not everything, not everything we desire, is as valuable as everything else. So we have to discern what is your heart most deeply desire? That's of the heart. You have to look into the heart. What value is that we have to discern. We have to use our mind Make a pro con list. You know, when there's big decisions, we have to know what's if I say yes to this, what are the ramifications of that? If I say no, what am I left with? And then choose, you know, then the third thing is, what are you prepared to do about it? And that's body, that's heart, mind, body that's it just encompasses it all. And as long as we're living from that deepest desire of our we're moving in the direction of our heart, happiness follows. But, but I mean real happiness. I call it unreasonable happiness. Oh, you know. And that's why Nataraja is dancing. You look at the statue behind that's called Shiva Nataraja, Lord of the cosmic dance. He's vibrating. He's so ecstatically joyous, you know. And he's dancing the eternal rhythms of the universe into existence, surrounded by a circle of protection, of grace. It's the Agni mandala, which is the circle of fire. You know It's fierce. You know fire is purifying and terrifying at the same time. So we live in the infinite potential. All possibilities are hell, and he's dancing standing on the imp of forgetfulness, which is, it's called the apasmara Purusha away from remembering. And that imp is our ego. You know, the whole dance is predicated on the dance floor, which is our back body. Here. It's our universal side of the self that the ego. It's not what's the what's in the way. Ego is not a problem. Ego encounters the gift of our embodiment. How to be your individual self, how to be your unique I mean, I'm just unique, I'm weird. I've got OCD probably, you know. But the thing is, that's me, you know, and and I've just embraced me, and the eyes of the ego, and this is important, are looking up at the lifted fruit of grace that the ego is permitted to live. But when we focus our our our ego energy in service to a bigger energy. You know, greatness is knowing that you're greater than yourself. And what happens is, like in the Hindu myths and everything, the demons have the same power as the devas, as the gods, the only problem is the demons want to sort of use this ecstatic joy for themselves. It's very narcissistic. And they, you know, use cruelty for cruelty sake anyway, where the Devas or the gods are using the same kind of power to promote good, you know, to promote equality, to, you know, uplift the experience of humanity. So, wow, man, you can, I don't know if I should interject. I think you could just keep going. And I'm enjoying listening that it's good, man, I can feel you've been. You are in the philosophy. You're living it. It's not just a conceptual idea at this point. It's a it's like you're putting it into the to the practice. Do you know Todd? Yeah, it's, well, I have to just say, like, Yes, I'm living it. And guess what? I'm a student forever. Oh yeah. And I'm a recovering perfectionist. So when I when I hear the teaching you are perfectly imperfect, just as you are, it kind of gives me permission to be myself without dimming it down, or without needing to change anything about myself or because I'm not pressuring myself, I feel free to change myself. You know, instead of shaming myself, it really is how to embrace what's there. And I'm perfect today, I'm going to be even more perfect tomorrow. Perfection is not the end of the game enlightenment. There's not a goal line that once you cross over it, you're enlightened. If you sit like booted it for 40 days, 40 nights, you'll get enlightened too. It's just, it's a concept of, there's arriving and journeying at the same time. But there's no final arrival where now you're done, because that would really be a place to go like I want to go there. So that's, you know, taught in the path of the renunciate. You know, the where it's really the the rejection of the world, rejection of desires, rejection of our humanity, because that's, that's what's in the way. The problem is you, I mean me, you know. So then we want to eliminate and extinguish the flame. Nirvana means the extinguishing of the light. We want to extinguish it, and Tantra, it just it's kind of the same thing in Tantra, but instead of emptiness, the other side of that is fullness. And what I've seen and learned from the tantric scholars that I'd studied with, they're just two two sides of the coin, so it's all good, like even those paths of renunciation, which is like a one way ticket, up and out. They want to get off the karmic wheel, because life is suffering. We never want to come back to this. So let's do good now, gain our good karma points so we don't have to come back. And Tantra is saying, well, souls tend to reincarnate, so that's just natural instead of getting off the wave, we want to learn how to surf the wave. It's like, Yeah, this is the revolution, a connection in. It's not up and out, it's in and down. You know, classically, like in the tantric traditions, the renunciate path was considered a higher path. And the householder tradition, which is you and me, householder, you go through family, you go through the stage, you pay your taxes, you pay your bills, like in the Tantra, that's not an inferior path. When I was living at Kripalu, I was being groomed to become a monk, which is to follow the SWAMI Kripalu was a Swami. He renounced the world. That was like the whole trajectory was renunciation. And just before I took my vows, I got married like I did, I did a whole spin, no, and while I was there at the ashram, so paradoxical. This is how, like, mind numbing all this is, oh my gosh, the guru was married, had three kids, okay? He was having affairs with all the women, okay? And not telling anyone. And I didn't know. I'm so naive. I didn't know until it came out, and then there were families at the ashram. And I have a lot of my friends who were families, but it was always taught to us that the renunciate path was higher and the family path, path of marriage and householder, was an inferior path. And for me, because I grew up with this feeling of unworthiness and shame, I took it to the spiritual practice. Said, Oh, that's not high enough. I want the highest. So it was really attractive for me to do the renunciate path. But now, after having done both, it's like the real work is relationship like the real work is here. The real work is isn't, is in the world. So there's such a difference. And I'll say one more thing that I'm going to take a breath the word samsara in the classic. Of traditions means the disease of worldliness that samsara is, you know, like all life is like samsaric in a way. But when you break down the etymology of the word, some means bounded, okay, and sorrow is the spirit. So when you define it like that, samsara means to be held back, to be bound, to be limited by the world. So if that's my definition, I'm going to want to get up and out, because I want to go towards freedom. Everyone does. You know the tantric definition of samsara. They define the part of that word as to be nurtured by, to be supported by, to be uplifted, upheld by, to be held by the world, not held back to be held by the world. So this whole idea of samsara takes a completely different it's an empowerment to be in the world, because the universe has our back, and life is always happening to us. Life is always happening for us, not to us in a way. So it's the Embrace again, the revolution is to be in connection, to move toward life and freedom expresses herself through boundary, knowing that we create healthy self boundaries to experience freedom. Well said, well said, I have heard before that Tantra is it's so interesting because, like what you said about the renunciate path, I've went through the same or similar type of thought processes of my first introduction in When I started reading was Wow, the the way to go is to be a monk and renounce, and which I think is so kind of comical of the juxtaposition that you said that the SWAMI slash guru himself was a married Man with multiple children having multiple affairs. And so, you know, that's just such an interesting thing. And I can see, and personally, I've had to like, you know, you try to wrap your mind around this, and you hear one thing out of one side, and then you see something coming out the other, and you're like, Whoa. And so I had a similar trajectory of like you, like what you're saying, where you want. We want to strive toward the best, highest one. Because what else am I going to do? Man, I don't want to go for the cheaper version. I'm going to go for the bigger one. But then, you know, there's this i And I remember when I first started, then after that first Tantra experience I had, I met somebody that was really influenced through the tantric teachings from Vajrayana Buddhist practices and and he started saying, Here, read this book and read that book and it in. And I remember him saying, this, this one is the one that is considered like the highest Tantra, like you really you won't get it until you're ready to get it, but you might as well just go for it anyway, because you're probably gonna get it. So I think how many people now I've read about how, say, 1000 years ago in the in India, that there was a flourishing tantric community. And then I learned that there was a flourishing tantric community in Indonesia and Bali and in multiple places around the world. There was these. And I get, I guess I even read recently that uh Bhutan potentially might be one of the last big uh tantric civilizations, so to speak. And so the thought of a community of people, like a larger community, like a like a city of people that are all orientating themselves toward this view. And what would it be like to be born into that, as opposed to, I can see, like what you said, in relation to the birth that we took here in the US, and the way, the cultural dynamic of what we've been inundated with since we were children, to then come into or to find Tantra, it's like, wow. This is so different. This is so different. This is like, the total opposite of everything I was taught when I was growing up in Catholic, Catholic school, or going to going to church so and, wow, this is really cool. This makes perfect sense. How come? How did I not see. This. How come it took me so long to come across this? This is unbelievable, so I guess I sometimes, and I don't even know if it's a worthy thing to investigate, but I wonder if I will be born again in a place where it is a fully thriving tantric community, and what would that be like? You know, would would I, because I grew up in that, be attracted more to the renowned see a path because it was something different, or would I just fully embrace that and then live a, you know, a classically tantrically orientated existence of just feeling the bliss of everyday existence. So I don't even know if I want you or need you to answer that, but I guess I just wanted to give you a chance to get your breath, and I'll fill in a little bit of space for you. And and then, and, or did it? Did it? Did it bring up any ideas for you when I went that direction? Yeah. Well, you know, there's things that we cannot control that's part of what the terror is. It's there's a celebration of life, absolutely, and then there's a terror of not being in control. And the embrace of both of those things at the same time is really what the path is. And so, you know, we can, you know, reflect and contemplate if we're going to be reborn again and where, and I think, in general, and this is what I've heard from my tantric teachers, is that souls are evolving. So it's not the case that they actually come back into lesser beings and all that. But I think there's probably a structure and some organizational thing that's in the subtle planes that I have no idea about. So I didn't really even want to go there, but what I do know is how to achieve deeper vitality in hell, emotional agility and a spiritual heart that's open, where we know ourselves and we and we're aware When we put the shield up and we're aware what it takes to lower this yield. We're aware how to, you know, open to a bigger energy as needed, and to understand the importance of all that. And so that's what I try to do. Like to lay out in my book, tantra is really not anything different than just living a healthy, well adjusted life where you are meaning to do well, and we do make mistakes. So then how do you how do you cover mistakes, like I think relationship is, either you're creating a new one, you're repairing what's there, or you're letting it go, you know, in each of those phases, you know, like, how do we how do we embrace that? How do we go through those stages more gracefully, you know, and certainly all the stages of life, you know, how how are we integrating and processing our childhood. And do we even look? Most people don't even know. If I say, well, describe doing the nature of your less revolved, wounded self. They go, what I don't you know. And I did a whole course with the Douglas Brooks, is the tantric scholar. I studied well him and Paul mother Ortega from Blue throat yoga. There are other scholars as well, so I've studied with many of them. But Douglas, Douglas will say, Oh, I just lost the thread in that. What was I talking about just before that? Well, you mentioned about in relationship, we're either creating, maintaining or dissolving, you know, and so I don't know if that's the part that you were going toward and or I'm with you. I know. Good luck. I mean, do you remember what show you watched on Netflix last night? Heck. No man, I'm joking. No, I know that's the beauty of this is I think we can, just like, try to grasp at it and but I understand what you're saying. I get what you're saying. I think, Well, you were kind of going down the track too, of recognizing your teachers. And I think that's a really interesting thing to do. You also mentioned that talking about children, our childhood, and have we? Are we? What was our wounded or what part? And see if I can say it the way you said it. You said, I like the way you said it. You said, can you look at side of your. Childhood that did experience the challenge. And what relationship are you in with that part of your childhood, exactly? And that reminds me of what I was wanting to say, which was the course that I taught with Douglas Brooks. We do various courses over the year, but this one was the spiritual warrior, stand in the gift of your wound. It's the whole idea that in Tantra, if we're not willing to open, you have to open to the wound first, which is terrifying. I mean, it's so scary we need courage to lower the shield. The shield like like takes the place of courage. I can't protect myself, so let me just close everything down so I'll be safe. Courage to lower the shield to be vulnerable. So first we have to open to the wound, and once we do, then how do we stand in the wound to get the gift of the wound? Because everything in life is for our waiting. What is the gift? You know, and that's what I mean by having a deep connection to ourselves. I said, like emotional agility. It's it. And I, I've studied a lot about psychology and emotions, and there's an incredible author called Dr Susan David Harvard, Professor. Her book is emotional agility, and she talks about, how do we move through our life with a little more freedom? This is she's teaching the Tantra, you know, and certainly we have to let go of resistance. So we need to learn how to bring comfort to our discomfort, so how not to resist when something hurts and we come to realize that the raw emotion, like we have an intense anger or intense grief, the raw emotion only lasts approximately 90 seconds after that. It's the story we tell ourselves about that emotion, that that's what we live. And the way I say it in my book is we are meaning making machines, and it's not so much the trauma. We all have traumas with small t, with a capital T, we all have these, these wounds, you know, greater or smaller, it's not that we have wounds, it's the meaning we assign to them that we live in, you know. So Susan David talks about, we need to bring the three C's to our emotions. First is curiosity. When we have a feeling deep inside, can we just be curious about it? Curiosity can only happen when there's no judgment, you know, like, what is being curious? Well, I haven't made a decision yet. You know, I'm not judging it. It's openness. Compassion is the second one you know to have compassion is, you know, we can only give compassion anyone else, to the extent that we can sit in our own darkness. That's what I'm talking about, like these spiritual thresholds, or spiritual powers. Be with us. Can you sit with your discomfort? That's compassion and then courage, and that is, you know, to then do something about it, and we learn more positive ways of expressing or discharging the emotions. You know, I mean, processing is one way, but meditation is another. Journal writing is another. I do vigorous exercise that just helps me to reset, you know, something that I'm worried about, and it brings insight. Of course, I use my yoga practice all the time to evolve my insight about something. And then, if we can just be open to learn from our emotions. The emotions turn out to be our body's guidance system, you know. So we bottle them. We don't want to deal with them, so we put it in a bottle, cork it, put it on the shelf, and it's like, you know what happens when you pickle something, right? Yeah, it turns more and more and more sour. And that's what happens if you don't deal with it. It festers inside. It becomes an irritant inside. If we don't bottle it, we tend to brood, meaning we recycle it over and over again, perseverating over and over. So that's what I mean. Like Tantra is it embraces the yoga of the body, the yoga of the mind, the yoga of the emotions, and, of course, the yoga of the heart, which is why ashaya really means the. Abode, the safe space inside, the place where you put your deepest secret treasures. You know, there's like an altar. We put the crystal, you know, of our essence, on the altar of the heart. Oh, man, I hear you that. It's so cool. I think the the work that you're alluding to, in relation to healing childhood wounds, is so deep and powerful in in this full in this view, is there, and you made mention of, say, the renunciate idea of, like, let me off this wild ship. The whole idea is, this ship is a little wild. I'm on off, and I'm gonna, I'm not gonna, like, you know, I know I can't just get off. I gotta do the work to eventually get off and then not have to come back. And then, from what I'm understanding within the tantric view, I'm willing to ride this ship as long as it takes, and maybe I don't even need to be on this ship anymore, but I think I want to stay on the ship, because there's so much glory, so much joy in seeing other people on the ship too. And how can I be of service to the other people on the ship that are struggling on the journey and the satisfaction that comes from, how do I get through? How can I get through? And then, obviously, there's this idea of, like, Okay, I'm still doing my work because, boy, I'm still got a lot of work to do. I feel it, I see it. I'm aware of it, and like and my wife lets me know about it very regularly. So, so, so, but at the same time, I guess, oh, man, for me personally, one of the big revelations has been I really wanted off the ship. I wanted to do anything to get off the ship, and I couldn't see the reason why I'm on the ship. What's the purpose of this whole ride? I just I'm over it. And then with digging down into this practice, I'm starting to see there's a reason why I'm on this ship. And this ship is really amazing. Having begun to see all there is of the sea on this ship, I've only been this one little cabin stuck and there's a board over the window. I mean, I want to get that board off. I want to look through that portal now, but, but even within this room, there was so much stuff I wasn't even looking at, and so it's like, I'm not in a hurry to get the portal open, but wow, just the thought that the portal could open, oh my gosh. Okay, I'm ready. I'm ready, but I'm a little nervous. I'm a little nervous. I got to be honest with you, I'm a little I understand what you're saying about the fear part, like of the what does that mean? What will that mean? Well, you know, it's a little but at the same time, I'm feel like all the messages that are coming are saying, Don't be scared. Just go man, just go for it. It's gonna be you are in the tantric revolution to embrace uncertainty, to embrace the celebration of life along with the terror, you know, and it's that's the journey. And why? Why are we here? Well, why is Nataraja dancing the in eternal rhythms of exist, of of the world into existence for the play of it. You mentioned it for the fun of it, for the joy of it. He's doing it for the play, you know. And I also believe that here, first of all, you have to go through to get to it. And you said, I want to go through it. That's the tantric way. And we're here to turn pain into beauty. We're here to transform the experiences that we're having of negativity into positivity, or to transform to use whatever comes to us as a means to go higher. So you know, I wouldn't want to invite all the negativity to come to you, like, hey, come get me. You know, it's, it's not like, little bit at a time, yeah, yeah. When you, when you feel some serious pain, you're like, Yeah, I don't, I don't need so then I guess what I'm very curious about then, is Kundalini, you know, because I, you know, I first heard, be careful what you wish for. And I think that's kind of what maybe, potentially, you're alluding to. If you get too much, too fast, if you if you see a little too much. Much. It might be intense, and it could be a wild ride. And then when you are having moments of the realization of this, like, like, I love the very first when you just started in terms of the idea of boundaries, but then opening, like, you know you're setting the boundary, but then you're also wanting to expand the boundary. So I think you dance to that first component of the world of judgment that comes up when people start, you know, thinking about, well, look what they did and how they didn't conduct themselves well, and blah, blah, blah. So I guess on, on the the Kundalini side, and, wow, I really want that experience that sounds cool. I keep reading about this thing they all talk about. It's wrapped around three and a half times at the base, and eventually it comes up and it pierces all the chakras and wild energy, and maybe I'll see or feel something that's gonna be better than what I'm already feeling and seeing right now. And then this like, whoa, holy cow. I feel like I gotta breathe. Whoo. This energy is intense, man, I just gotta breathe. Like, what do I do with this? Like, and so I'm starting to think maybe that is the Kundalini. But you know, what is your take on on what do I what do I? Please tell me it's a big topic. From the tantric perspective, everybody's Kundalini is already awake, awakened, and it's just a matter of degrees. Kundalini is what's breathing you. It's the name of a goddess. Kundalin means coiled. And as the myth goes, it's coiled in the Muladhara chakra, the base chakra. And when it starts to awaken, meaning you, your spiritual perception opens, the veils start to thin. We're starting to see the truth of the reality of what is as it is. This is the definition of surrender, like I said earlier. And when that happens, supposedly this Kundalini, which is depicted as a snake, or serpent, rises up and pierces the first three chakras, which is kind of cool in a way, like there's so much symbolism of what those those are considered our worldly chakras. But they really give us our foundation, our feeling of connection and safety, which is the first chakra, our feeling of desire and intense longing for something more, like the itch of desire and to recognize that there's not just you, there's other people, so that we experience this kind of relationship in a way, and then it's like a polarity, like the second chakra is more of a polarity when it moves up to the sixth chakra, which is depicted by two petals, that polarity becomes integrated as a unity. It's like, this is where we we see a unity that includes duality. But here at the second chakra, there's still, there's good and bad, right and wrong, there's like, this polarity thing going on, and then the third chakra is it penetrates the self. So it's like the third chakra is the ego, but it's also our individuality. And when the energy moves up there, we just awaken to our capacity to be ourselves. You let the sunshine of your personality expand, and it's all okay. And the Shakti, or the Kundalini will rise all the way up and pierce all pierce all the lotuses. So I had a very intense Kundalini opening experience, which is what facilitated me after the 10 day course, staying for 13 years, because everything opened and I discovered brand new values, and I was able to let go of my past, even let go of my family, to an extent symbolize by taking a new name and all these things, you know, and I always say, like, when you're in the path of your heart, be careful, because you're going to disappoint people, Not intentionally. But then I'll say, Well, if you're not regularly disappointing, others who might you be regularly disappointing, and it comes back to start finding yourself live your life. Yoga gives us permission to be self ish, to understand, to fill our own tank. And then from there, of course, we want to give, but can we give from the overflow so we don't over give and deplete ourselves, and nor do we want to live under our parents supervision forever or living their dreams. And my dad was a musician. Was was I trying to fulfill his dream of a music. He was upset when I, you know, I was invited to go back to do a free fellowship for my master's degree program, and I turned down my professors because I said I found this yoga thing. I'm going to go live in a yoga ashram, and I certainly disappointed my parents, but I was able to go back, and once they saw after a few years, I was so healthy, so healthy, so happy, then they started doing yoga, like I pulled them along with me, because I was so strong, so sure every cell of my body, and that was from the Kundalini awakening, where every cell is pointing in the direction you want to go, and there's absolutely no resistance, nor did I have much social awareness, as you'll see, because I went into a very deep yogic state, went up to the mountain behind the ashram in Pennsylvania, took off all my clothes because I needed to be natural man. Had no idea what is I was doing, and stuck naked, walked back to a celibate ashram, and there I was natural yogi. And luckily, the administrator saw me and swooped me into the brothers barn. At that time they called the brothers barns. What are you doing? I saw that I was, I was in another reality. You know? I was like, God, intoxicated, and it so I would say, yes, that was an intense experience. It took me some time to get down. And I won't give it away, but there's a whole chapter of that in my book that really, as I reflected back later after that experience, I could discern that whole time. I felt protected by grace, even though it was just this bizarre thing that I went through. And after that, I was a different I was a changed person. So this is our potential. Kundalini can come as an insight that changes your life. It can come as you know, of depression or a grief, a loss that was so deep, you come through that, and suddenly you're a brand new person you know, so or it can come and mess with the mind, and sometimes, I mean, there's a fine line between us, you know, a kundalini experience and a psychotic event, a psychotic episode. And people can read my book and they'll say, oh, yeah, he had a psychotic episode. I could have told myself that story, but the meaning I chose to make of that was, however psychotic it was, there was a spiritual component to it, and it shifted the entire rest of my life. 45 years later, I'm like, you know, hopefully I like Sam, helping people and helping others who have sometimes those confusing experiences. So the practices that I teach now help to regulate the opening of our consciousness. You can call it kundalini awakening or whatever, so that it's gradually and in Tantra, we don't want a full blown experience of it. Look at Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita. He said, Krishna, show me your true form. He said, No, you're gonna like you're gonna have a Hendrix Experience, yeah, yeah, in 11. Krishna says, Okay, I will show he opens his mouth and Arjuna, like, what's his Doti? Like, he couldn't, he could not handle it, you know, he pooped his pants and and it was, it blew him away. Said, Krishna, close your mouth. I like you much better as a mortal friend. And Tatra is saying, Hey, we don't want enlightenment all on see if that's even a thing. We want to unwrap the gift of life slowly to savor each awakening moment that we have, you know, on this journey of the heart. And that's what makes it so sacred, so special, you know. And so the slow unwrapping, and I because you had a big unwrapping, and have learned from it. And I love that you're you've been able to integrate it to the point of, you know, recognizing it, and now, from the angle of teaching, to be able to help others unwrap slowly, you know, slowly, gently, gently, listen, yeah, the whole, the whole method that I teach, like in the asana portion, let's say it's composed of the five elements, and one of the elements I focus on is Earth, because we are embodied beings. There are many yoga systems. It's all sky, it's all air, and sky just float up away. Do yoga to relax, even down to the anatomical, physiological embodiment of my method, I have people hug in with the longing for freedom. And when they hug in, their muscles contract, which is what muscles are designed to do, and it feeds the bones. They get healthier, they get more stable. Aches and pains go away because suddenly the fascia is coming closer to the bone, which is what healing, what needs to happen, like if you injure yourself, you wrap it, to get the fascia and the prana and the blood and all that to hug more, to engage more in that area. So my method really it, it's, it's subtle. I don't usually tell people this, but we are the embodiment of the five elements, and the Asian method is a step by step method to assist that of embodiment, you know. So right now, I'm teaching in my membership on the five elements, and so we did sky consciousness the other day. And sky is like you know. Do you give yourself space to make mistakes? So sky is space, you know, or are you heart you contract down on yourself? Do you feel a sense of freedom in your life. You know, Are you tapping into your fullest potential? Earth is Do you feel grounded, steady and stable? And so when we use our muscles in that way to pull in, it helps us be able to expand out more fully. And this probably is not going to make a lot of sense, but that's how stars that's how the elements are formed. That's how a star shines its light. Light isn't coming out of the star. The light is happening from nuclear fusion in the core of the star. The star is connecting. The star is doing a Tantra. It's looming itself in order to expand. And you are making sense. Todd, I understand why you would say that, because I know what it's like when you start coming into this field. It's like a, whoa, like it's a, it's a, it's a big it's a, it's amazing. And so I understand what you're saying. Why you would say it's probably isn't even making sense, like what I'm saying right now, but it is making sense. It's making perfect sense. So I think you're doing I don't know. I just really appreciate, first of all, I know we're kind of traveling into the world of like time I'm on a time schedule, and I looked at the clock, and I'm like, Whoa, this is good. We got a whole hour and 15 minutes, and I haven't once looked at the clock yet. And so I guess in the attempt to, well, maybe I don't even need to attempt to close anything. What's the point of closing a conversation? Let's keep the conversation open. I mean, I think tell my I seem to say that might feel like some kind of a completion that has to do with the stars and this idea of contraction. So the universe, in its vastness, is already expanded. It seeks to contract, to know itself so it becomes us, but in our finiteness, our longing to expand and experience, our universal nature, our experience that is unbounded, ecstatic freedom, we are also wanting to expand, you know, from our limited state into the universe. So there's this exchange. The universe becomes us. We wake up at our individuality and we want to expand, to become her. And it's the symbiotic beauty that we are both ourselves and each other. We are both universe and individual together, embodied. We are earth and sky, and earth and sky come together in the heart, and this life on Earth is a journey of the heart. Beautiful, amazing I want to recommend all listeners. I recommend you to get a copy of Todd's book, all the links for everything that we discussed, I'll try to include and then go to Todd's website. And it's obviously really easy Todd, to study with you, because we live in the this, this era where we're in the era where it's possible now. I mean, gosh. I mean, I can't even tell you how grateful I am for computers and and and technology to be evolving. On this level to where I feel like it's rapidly facilitating growth. It's unbelievable. And I used to always look at these things like, oh, stay away. That's going to be the thing that ruins humanity. No, no. I was looking at the from the wrong angle. It's actually helping. And so any anywho, without going too crazy on that track, but I am so grateful. Todd man, I knew this was going to be amazing, and I just, I just, I can't wait to meet you in person. I definitely want to, I can't wait to read your book. Thank you for sharing it with me. I you know I'll go on Amazon and purchase a copy. You were kind enough to just to give me one, and I want to support you. So I really appreciate you know you sharing it with me. That was generous, and I Well, hopefully let's do this again, because or something, let's collaborate together again. If it's a possibility, I'd be I would love to, and I really value everything you said. I'm just so grateful for all the time and dedication. Think of all the different things you could have decided to do otherwise you could, you could have like, I don't know if you decided to become a I don't know something different, but you're sticking with yoga and teaching, and that's a big deal 45 years. I mean, it's hard sometimes, and you think I should have, should I done something else? What did I How in the world did I choose this and and I think, no, I think this is the path, man, this is the stuff to stay on right here. So I'm grateful for you being so dedicated. Thank you. Well, thank you so much. It is a sacred journey that we're all on, and I appreciate just your open heartedness and your receptivity and all that you're putting forward to expose your people and expose the world with these teachings. And I really appreciate it. I feel such a great heart connection with you and and we're the Todd men both same name and similar vibrations. So I wish you all the best, most success, and I do hope we can connect to begin real soon. Thank you, Todd, native yoga. Todd cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you like this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com, and hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends. Rate it and review and join us next time you Oh, yeah, now you.