Carroll Ann Friedmann ~ Beyond the Pose: Understanding the Subtle Body in Yoga Practice

Carroll Ann Friedmann is the co-owner of Ashtanga Yoga Charlottesville, a yoga studio in Charlottesville, Virginia, alongside her husband, Liam Buckley. She has a strong background in Integral Yoga and transitioned to Ashtanga Yoga after exploring different styles. Carroll Ann has spent extensive time training in Mysore, India, under the guidance of Saraswati Jois, daughter of the renowned Ashtanga guru Pattabhi Jois. Besides teaching, she has authored a book on the Yoga Sutras, emphasizing practical application for personal growth and self-reflection.

Visit Carroll: https://www.ashtangacharlottesville.com/

Key Takeaways:

• Personal Transformation through Yoga: Carroll Ann's personal journey showcases the transformative power of Ashtanga Yoga.
• Yoga Studio Management: She discusses the intricacies of running a yoga studio, emphasizing the need for adaptability and community focus, especially amid rising costs and external pressures.
• Evolving Ashtanga Practice: Carroll Ann stresses the importance of flexibility within the Ashtanga tradition, advocating for adaptations like Black Lotus Yoga to avoid injuries and enhance accessibility.
• Female Leadership in Yoga: Highlighting Saraswati Jois's pivotal role as a woman in the Ashtanga lineage, Carroll Ann touches on the significance of female-led teaching in a traditionally male-dominated sphere.

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Chapters

• 0:05 Caroll Ann Friedmann's Journey in Ashtanga Yoga During COVID
• 4:52 Navigating Studio Relocation and Lease Challenges
• 12:35 The Value of Human Touch in Yoga Amidst AI Advancements
• 15:06 Transformative Journey From Integral Yoga to Ashtanga Mastery
• 21:10 The Transformative Power of Yoga and Community
• 33:48 Community Grief and Leadership Transition in Yoga Lineage
• 37:35 Balancing Tradition and Flexibility in Yoga Practice
• 44:33 Embracing Change and Karma in Ashtanga Yoga Community
• 52:33 Saraswati's Pioneering Role in Ashtanga Yoga Lineage
• 58:57 Redefining Lineage and Courage in Ashtanga Yoga
• 1:05:30 Practicing the Yoga Sutras as a Personalized Practice Manual
• 1:09:08 Exploring Yoga Practices and Community Connections

Transcript

Todd McLaughlin: 0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage, bodywork and beyond. Follow us at @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Todd, hello. Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. My name is Todd McLaughlin, and if you're a longtime listener, welcome back. And for those of you that are brand new, I'm really happy that you're here today. My special guest is Carroll Ann Friedmann. She and her husband run the Ashtanga Yoga program in Charlottesville, Virginia. And I had a really amazing conversation with CarrollAnn. I think you're going to love her down to earth, nature and her perspective on yoga, Ashtanga Yoga in this modern era. And please visit her on her website, ashtangacharlottesville.com She, at the very end of the conversation, speaks about a book that she put together, that I'm excited to get that helps us work through the Yoga Sutras in a practical fashion. The links are in the description. Check her out. Send her some love. We'd love to hear from you. Send us a message, and let's go ahead and begin. I'm so happy to have this chance to be here with Carroll Ann Friedmann. Carroll Ann, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you feeling? Great? Yeah. Yay. Yay. You are the owner of a yoga studio in Charlottesville, Virginia, called Ashtanga Charlottesville. Can you tell me a little bit about what how did you come to run the studio, and how long have you been at

Carroll Ann Friedmann: 2:28

it? I've practiced at AYC. That's what we call sugary or Charlotte's fault. I practiced there since about 2010 with Jennifer Elliot, and maybe two or three years in, my husband, who's a anthropology professor, had a sabbatical, and we decided to go to India for six months with our four kids. We were like a traveling circus, and all of us went and studied with Saraswati Joyce, guruji's daughter and Mysore, and so I was that was where I really kind of got my feet on the ground, even though I'd been practicing here for a few years. And when we came back from that experience, I said to Jennifer, I would really like to kind of go deeper into this tradition, because my background had been in intro yoga and Hatha. And so I started, I just went to, she would have workshops with all the, you know, all the amazing people. They all came through here, and I went to all of them. I got to know people. And then my dear friend Ty Landrum was kind of coming up as a yoga teacher in that studio, so I worked with him a ton, one on one. And after, I guess, by 2015 I had started assisting Saraswati in Mysore, which is like going to grad school for Ashtanga, because you're like, hundreds of people are coming in and you have your hands on and you just gotta be like you get over yourself. So anyway, I did this for a few years, and and I would come back, and I would help Jennifer, and then I would go back, and I was back and forth and back and forth for about eight years. I would spend three or four months a year in my store. And so we I was deep in but I was also trying to become more like a more of a support person for her. And so I started running an evening program at AYC. And then covid happened, and it was we had this, you know, like all of us during covid, we were like, Okay, now what? And, yeah, one of our, one of our old time like our you know, 10 year practitioners was an infectious disease expert, and she said, We can do this. Here's how we're going to do this. So we actually stayed open in person, because in Virginia, you just do whatever you want. There are no laws about anything. So we stayed open in person for the whole time we we opened our doors. And we closed in March for a couple of months, got our act together, opened our doors in July. But Jennifer was just she had a lot of anxieties about doing this, because she also worked with some elderly folks, and she was just feeling like she just didn't have the energy for it and the bandwidth. And we just said, we'll do it. And so it was like that. It was like, okay, here go. And I was already teaching. And, I mean, my husband, Leanne and I were already, like, helping her run the show us. So it was just like a one day, it was her. Next day, it was me, off we go. And so we've been doing it together for five years. And I, you know, I look back, I didn't understand what it was like for her. Like, I had no idea. I knew it was challenging, but I had no idea. And now that I've been doing it for five years, my husband and I together, I can't imagine doing it without him. Yes, a solo person. I just can't even imagine what that would be like. So we very much are a team. I'm the kind of, you know, I'm the captain or whatever, but he's, like, whatever. They call him the first mate, and he's, he's critical. He also has, like, a big job out there, so he can't, you know, but we're, we really do it together. And we're five years in, and then on Monday, we got an email from our lease holder at the Shala, where we've been for 20 years. People are deeply attached to the Shala, and they'll tell me, Yep, he's given it to the restaurant downstairs. He's gonna renovate, and he's and he's expelling us. But But amazingly, the same morning, I had had a conversation with Ballet School about something about renting space from them, and just this prickle in my head said, Ask her about moving here. Not that I had any plans to move, but it just, it just sparked in my mind. So we had a quick conversation about that, and she said, yeah, we'd love to have you. And then I walked out, going, Why did I ask her that? Like I love my Shala. And then that afternoon, I got an email saying we're ending your lease. So, wow, I know, right, it was bizarre. And then four days after I found out we we ended the lease, we had a new lease at this so we're moving in October to a new place, and it's a huge deal for people. I mean, you know, when you practice in a place for decades. People get very attached, and you do, but I think it's actually going to be really good for levels.

Todd McLaughlin: 7:31

Yeah, that's cool. I'm curious if you're going to be are you going to sublease from the ballet center? They are, yes.

Unknown: 7:41

Yeah. Are

Todd McLaughlin: 7:43

you feeling like there's going to be a little bit of weight off your shoulders? Because I think one thing as a studio owner, sometimes we we think to ourselves, uh, wow, the overhead is just enormous. If I could somehow share overhead with somebody else's in a similar boat, and maybe pair my program down a little bit so that, you know, I don't have to worry about using, utilizing access to it, 24/7, to maximize profit, that that could be a huge weight off the shoulders. I'm just curious, how are you feeling with this information in relation,

Unknown: 8:16

it's the opposite for us. We had a crazy situation where we had a lease that was kind of verbal, non written, and had gone on for 20 years, and they'd never raised our rent. So our rent was insanely low, and as a result, I had the lowest prices in Charlottesville for practice. I was passing that benefit on to my students. You know, I really, I deeply, believe in affordable yoga. So we had these super low, shallow fees. And people were like, Why are you so cheap? And I'm like, because my rent is very low. So my rent is actually doubling going to this new place. It's still low, but for the ballet school woman, it's a huge it's like, yeah, releasing a lot of financial pressure, which is great. And my people are psyched they're coming with me. I have a few sub letters that are coming with me. It's going to be fine, you know, but it was really, I think what the the weight that's off me is now I have an actual lease. I'm not doing this month to month. So my friend Ty Landrum, he ran the over workshop when Richard and Mary left Boulder, he ran the ever workshop there, and I was actually with him, just visiting him, when the same thing happened to him. His landlord called, and they had a 30 year, month to month verbal agreement, and just said, Okay, you got to be out by the end of the month. And he was like, What are you talking about? It's been 30 years, and this is what happens to us sometimes, especially if we've been on a shallow for a long time. It gets kind of soft, you know? And he made a different decision. He he looked around. I mean, I was with him. We were all over the place, looking for space. He couldn't find anything. And it was a really clear sign to him that it was time to pivot, because he had started traveling a lot. And it was, he just felt like, Okay, this is a we can. Can't, we can't continue this. So he ended up the yoga workshop, kind of hit the road, you know, he became like a traveling teacher. We had a very different experience, where, when we found out three days later, I had a new lease, and it was like, okay, clearly, this is what we need to do. So, yeah, but I think when you, um, you know when you run a studio or a Shala and it's your it's your life's work and it's your living, it's so different. My husband is a professor. I am a I'm a financial manager, so this is a kind of love job for us. It's not the way we support our family, and it never has been, yeah, and I am really, I have, I have a lot of respect for people who put the whole, you know, they've put all their eggs in that basket, because that's super intense. And, I mean, I found some friends, you know, Hamish, I have, I have a handful of friends who've done it like this. And I think it's amazing. I've never done that. So it's just a different, you know, it's a different

Todd McLaughlin: 11:01

Yeah, well, it's so cool to hear how you're pulling it off and making it happen. I feel like probably every studio owner is under the same challenge right now with, you know, we had a similar situation where we've been here 19 years, and so we needed to re sign our lease. We have been working on five year leases, but there's so much development happening in our neighborhood here, where we've been in June, where we are in Juneau Beach, that the new person that bought the plaza that we're in when we were coming at the end of our lease, he said, Okay, they said, Okay, we'll give you another five years, which we were really happy about. We thought we were going to have to move, but at with a 33% increase in the rent, and there was no budging on that, I know, so we had that really tough decision to make, but we pulled the we pulled. We made the decision that we're going to stay. We're going to, you know, take on the challenge. It does mean increasing the cost of yoga for people, which I agree with you. We want

Unknown: 12:03

to I'm also having to increase on my face.

Todd McLaughlin: 12:05

Yeah, yeah. It's just the name of the game. And, well, we have what I

Unknown: 12:10

what I've done, and I'm sure you do this is I lease space to other yoga teachers who just want to teach a one off, and they're not part of my curriculum or anything. We're just a pretty straightforward Mysore. And, you know, we teach red primaries. We have a very Ashtanga kind of modality. But we, we've made our space available to so many people, and they're really grateful, you know. And even though we don't charge a whole lot for their rent, when you add it all up, it really helps. Yeah, huge difference. So we kind of, we said, well, it said we have high fees, then I don't know. It just happened, if we have high fees, then we will have fewer renters than if we have lower fees. And we are, like, pretty much full all the time, because our fees are about 50% lower than what people around us charge for the same thing, and it just keeps us really full, and it's huge help to us financially. Yeah, but yeah, we all have to just figure it out. But I'm also kind of, like, I get a little, I don't know, I won't go on a rant that it's too bad that these property owners can't just, like, respect the work that we do. And, you know, give us a break. I wanted to say to this guy, does Charlottesville really need another big old restaurant? Like, we've got, like, a billion of them, and how many 20 year old yoga studios do we have? Like, two? So it's hard to come up against that very

Todd McLaughlin: 13:39

Yeah, corporate. Well, good point. And I think what I'm noticing too, with the rise of AI technology, that in person, practice spaces are becoming more valuable because, you know, there's more. You know, we're seeing a rise in just like, you know, online capabilities. But, and then, you know, I interviewed someone recently. He's from India, and he was, you know, straight away, was saying, like, Hey, pretty soon, robots are going to be teaching yoga, so personalized touch is going to be a really big deal. And then I just read an article the other day that people are asking the question like, What should I encourage my children to do as we move forward in this environment? And the overwhelming response was to have hands on professions, jobs that actually require human touch. And so I think a yoga studio where people can come into a space, be around other humans, have it authentic, and that's becoming more valuable as more online spaces are

Unknown: 14:46

popping. Yeah, we're, we run, we're Ashtanga. You have a Charlottesville. Our background is very sort of Ashtanga. You know, it's very like stay. And you're like, you know, this is what we do. But since Liam and I have started running it, we've become very, very open minded and very expansive and kind of, we've diversified what we do. And so, like, we have a mentorship program that we run where our students who are going through life stuff will, like, have meetings with us and set goals. And, you know, that's just part of our modality. And then we also run an apprenticeship, as we have a teacher training curriculum. And then when people graduate from the teacher training, they can become apprentices, so they can actually be in the miser room working with us, with their hands on people. And it's, it feels great for them to be able to, you know, practice what they've learned. And, yeah, but it also that literally hands on, you know, like, as a Shami people like ashga yoga teachers, we teach with our hands. And you can't get that on Zoom, you know, you can't, like, you can't have the, the sort of magic of being touched and held and you know, so that's a that's something that a robot will never do.

Todd McLaughlin: 16:05

Agreed, agreed. I agree with you. Can you you made mention pre podcast that you first got involved with yoga, within integral Yoga, you talk a little bit about what your what the transition was like, or what got you excited about Ashtanga as an integral and or hatha yoga practitioner? Yeah,

Unknown: 16:28

so I was at a prenatal yoga class. I was just kind of bopping around, pregnant, you know, looking for yoga. And a friend took me to inert yoga class, and I really fell in love with the because I've been to gym yoga for prenatal but in Article, yoga, you sit down, you you chant for a bit, and then you do this practice, and then you sit down, and then you do pranayama, and then you do a yoga nidra. And it's very It had all the lens, you know, and it felt very sort of spiritually robust to me. And I was sort of post religion. When I came to yoga, I'd been involved. I had a master's in Divinity degree, and I'd been involved in the Christian church for, you know, 15 years, very deeply. And I left that, like, pretty, like, extremely. Also left a marriage. It was one of those, you know, big explosions and bodies everywhere anyway. So I came to yoga. I was like, yeah, no religion, thank you. But this just felt so rich. And I was like, Oh, this. So when my youngest, I have four kids, when my youngest was three or four years old, I I continued to go to these classes, and I took a teacher training and sort of went off the deep end with, you know, the yoga thing. And I was doing that for a while. But the problem for me was I had been a marathon runner and very athletic, and I found that postpartum was fine, like being pregnant and doing integral yoga was fine. But when I got to the point where I was like, back in my body, I was needing something a little more like, a little more like what a marathon Hunter looks for, you know, we, if you teach Ashtanga, you know, we self select, like we're all a little type A, and my Shallot is full of people who are General overachievers in their lives. Super intense, super like, motivated, disciplined, just that's how I was. And the integral yoga tradition was beautiful, but it was just a little too soft, and I wanted something, a little heartbeat, so I went to a couple other classes that a friend took me to, and they were so hard I thought I was gonna cry. I was just like, Oh my God. Like, I was like, This is so hard. But then I, you know, it's like, okay, but there's something in here that I really like. And Jennifer, the old yoga teacher, she said, Okay, you need to come to my store. And I was like, where's that, you know? So she explained the whole Mysore method to me, and I was like, all right. And I hated it. I mean, truly hated it. Like I would go to my store, because she was kind of making me if I wanted to practice, and it was the best Yoga Studio in town, hands down. So I was like, I want that one. And she's like, You have to come to my store. So I would go, and I would go with this friend of mine. We'd leave, and I'd be like, Oh my god, Don't you just hate that? Was it? I'll give worse that. And he just look at me, like, no. And I was like, oh, you know. So this was me for like, a year. I was just like,

Todd McLaughlin: 19:26

do you think it was because you had to memorize the sequence, or what part is it? Were

Unknown: 19:30

you anything? I was a freaking runner. My knees were tight. Lotus hurt like crap. I couldn't do there were, like, in primary series, one day I counted, and there were 17 poses I couldn't do like it was just a train wreck, and I was like, I couldn't, I couldn't even do a headstand against a wall, like I couldn't push up into Urdd on your asana, even with people like

Todd McLaughlin: 19:53

it was a disaster,

Unknown: 19:56

and I was, I was so embarrassed, you know? Know, there's like an ego bonfire, but something in me was like, No, this is it. Ca, you better stay here. This is it. So I people laugh at me because now I practice third series like I'm, you know, full on, drank the Kool Aid, like I've been I'm almost 60 years old, and I finished third series last year, which was pretty cool, in my late that's a big deal. That's, yeah, yeah. And I was 45 when I started ashanga, you know, that was another problem, yeah. But then my friend Ted says, oh, yeah, I remember you. And I'm like, I'm like, the turtle and the turtle in the hair, like, slow and steady, you know, yeah, because I, I have no natural talent, but I am so persistent and so disciplined, and so the Ashton system was perfectly designed for someone like me, because it was like, Okay, I don't like to be told what to do, but I like to tell myself what to do, right? So I took the initiative. And then after, you know, after a few years, like miracles were happening, like I was, I was like, I can't believe I'm doing this, you know. And I remember the first time I went to my sort Todd, you know, the whole scene, and I went in to sit in the hallway and watch second series, you know, how people do that the one second. And I was watching it, and I was like, like, seriously, I thought I was going to be sick, especially like when they were doing, like, the Star Wars March, you know, titty Boston to be. And I just looked at my husband. I went there, who were, who are these people? Like, where did they come from? What they're like, Gumby humans. And I was, I couldn't imagine. And now I can I lead, I teach a lead second while I'm practicing it like, you know, the transformations that happened in the Ashtanga system are mind boggling. So that was what really kept me in the door, was this, like, incredibly transformative experience, and just watching things, watching impossible things happen, not just to me, but to everybody around me, you know, like, I have people who, anyway, you know, the stories, just the things that happen are just like,

Todd McLaughlin: 22:09

so, yeah, yeah, that's I love hearing. I love hearing your perspective. It is amazing, like that, isn't it? It is transforming little

Unknown: 22:17

kids. Yeah, Sarswati taught my eight year old, my 10 year old, and they spent four and a half five years studying with her. We were homeschool, homeschooling them. And so they were there all the time and and just to watch how it, how it nurtured their character and their their confidence. And it was just amazing. So practice, how old were you? 2123 and then I

Todd McLaughlin: 22:42

have 112 years ago, or 10 years ago, about 12

Unknown: 22:45

years ago, and they're still practicing, you know, and they're still and their characters have been shaped by the experience of yoga. So it's really amazing. So I just wanted, you know, I don't do things halfway, and most of my students don't either. That's the kind of, that's the kind of student Ashtanga tends to track, to attract, you know, or people who are just like, yeah, we aren't halfway people. We're like, all the way people. And, you know, it's been really awesome just to see this entire community and the transformation and the depth, the depth of, like, love and commitment and connection we have to each other. You know, when you practice next to somebody in a my store room, you may not even know their name, but you feel this deep bondedness with them, you know. And it's like, deeper than conversation. It's deeper than, like, sociality. It's, it's got this, like, pure resonance, you know. And it's really, yeah, that's really awesome. So we have a beautiful the community in our Charlotte is really exceptional. And, you know, I will stay around for 10 more years just to be around them.

Todd McLaughlin: 23:52

That sounds amazing. That's so cool. I know it takes a lot of energy. How many days a week are you showing up to lead class? Are you there? We have a

Unknown: 24:01

five morning a week miso program, Monday through Friday. And then we also teach evening Mysore Monday through Thursday. My husband does that because I'm like, ready to go to bed. And then we do a Saturday morning chronic. So the other thing we do at AYC is we've we've kicked out the we're not really an Asana centered, like we have so many other limbs going on. So we have a pranayama and meditation class every Saturday morning that's very well attended, followed by vinyasa. And this is the other thing we're doing in terms of, like, open minded innovation. My friend Ty Landrum has created Black Lotus yoga, which is a, it's kind of like, you know, the rocket. It's a, it's a new system, but it's a, my source style system. And it is gorgeous. I mean, it's truly and one of the beauties of it, Todd. I mean, if you've been doing this 19 years, you could probably tell me how many students you've lost to knees. You know, like Ashtanga is some people. People are like, Yep, it's wrecking my knees I'm out of here, or to lower back because of the compressions. So Black Lotus is this system that really delays the introduction of Padmasana poses until people have had a long time to, like, open the hips and, you know? And it's amazing, like my students who are practicing Black Lotus because I'm teaching it alongside. They're they're not wrecking their knees. And, you know, some students who left because their knees were trashed have come back and started this, and they're like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. So we're really trying to, yeah, radical accessibility is our number one priority at a YC, like, that's like, that is, like, the rule. And so we use props. We use different forms of poses. We substitute poses, you know, like, we'll substitute, I don't know Bard vadrasana from our ID, like, whatever it takes to keep people in the practice. And it's really cool, because that's not how I was raised, you know, yeah, yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 26:03

Did, did Saraswati? I've had a chance to practice with Saraswati a few times. Do you feel like she took a slightly more gentle role in the relationship of teaching Ashtanga, as opposed to the way Sharat and or Pattabhi Jois was holding it down? Do you feel like she Yeah.

Unknown: 26:21

I mean, we were a different Shala. You've been in her Shala, right? You said you studied, oh, I

Todd McLaughlin: 26:27

practiced with her when she was assisting patabi Joyce. And when we were in India in 2004 in Mysore, Pattabhi Joyce was there, and Sharat and Saraswati were all in the room together, yeah, I know there was a little bit of changing of situations and over her place. And so I didn't practice

Unknown: 26:46

very different. Okay, so she, I was there when all this went down in 2014 she came back from helping sharap. She would teach us. We were her little Shala and her little house, you know, around the corner, and we were all kind of packed in. And then when we were done, she would go and help Shera, and there weren't many of us, so, you know. And one day she just came home and she said, I'm done. I'm like, What do you mean? She's like, I'm not doing that anymore. And I was like, what happened? She goes, everybody wants to be a teacher, nobody wants to be a student. And that was her kind of final, her final call on Sharat Shala. And he was not happy. I mean, to put it mildly, she was like, You know what? I have all my students, I'm going to be fully committed to you guys. So what happened that was in 2014 2015 to 2018 her shella blew up like we were, oh, my God, we were packed. I would start I would practice at 430 I'd get up and start teaching at six, and I wouldn't leave the building till noon, like we were just slam packed. The difference that was happening in this show was she would see someone, and she would know what was possible, okay? And if it was possible, just by looking at them, if it was possible, to do something like, say, a bind and Marcy, she would hold them there, and she'd say, try it again. Try it again. Try it with, help. Try it with, you know, Prashanti. That's what she called me, Prashanti, go over there and help so and so. And she would hold, hold the pattern until it happened. But if she saw someone and she knew this body is not going to bind in Marie Dee ever, it's not going to happen or it's not going to happen in the next 10 years, she would have them modify the pose, hang out for a bit and move on. And it was like there were no gateway poses, none. What she did for me personally was my back bends were a train wreck, like I could, I told you, I couldn't push off the floor, and I was doing primary, well, there's this now I think, kind of crazy thing where we do all this primary forward bending and twisting, and then we go, Hey, do urban on your asana. And people are like, Well, some people can just pop up. But if they're like me, no way. And they get really frustrated. So she as soon as I'd finished sedubdasana, she said, Okay, I keep going. And she sent me into second series, and she had me practicing all the way through to Strassen, and then, lo and behold, I could do Batman, you know. So there was no like, Oh, you've got to drop back and stand up. I would have never left primary series if she'd done that to me. So she told me later, when I, you know, worked with her for years and years and years, she said, six months primary only. Then you get on with it, she's like, more than six months and the student will get sad. That's all she put it sad, heavy, depressed. She understood the kind of a panic nature of primary and she's like, You can't keep people here too long, because it starts to get, you know, and it was beautiful, because she was just through her, her modeling, she was showing me how to be a teacher. And so. Yes, I very much, from the very beginning, have embodied that spirit of yes and like. And also she taught me how to how to look at bodies and kind of see what was possible. You know, I kind of started looking through her eyes. I mean, I worked with her for five years, you know, yeah, so I'm so grateful still. I mean, people will say, How did you know I could do that? And I'm like, my teacher told me, you know, she taught me how to look at your you know, how to look at bodies and how to see possibility. I didn't learn that myself. I got it, you know, from her. And, yes, so, and also, even now, her leads. We start the lead, we finish the lead. We sit down, we do pranayama, we chant for like, 20 minutes, and then we take rest, and she waits until we're up before she leaves. Like, there's this courtesy, this, like, kind, sweet, and I've never once seen her Todd be ugly to anyone, like ever. Yes, I've never seen her snap at anybody. Now, behind the scenes, she and I are very close, and I'll go home and have coffee with her, and she'll be normal, you know, she'll Yeah, bitch a little or whatever. But in the Shala, she is equanimity itself, and it creates this sense of safety people feel in Saraswati shower. They feel safe, they feel taken care of. You know, there's a nurturing quality, and that's what I very much tried to bring to AYC. And people have told me, This is my safe place. This is my happy place. This is where I feel. I know everyone's going to be nice to me here. You know, there's no no no drama at a YC, none. And you know, I learned that from her, so I was never unsure about Shaw. I don't know, but Tommy Joyce had passed away before I started going to my store. Now, I know Richard and Mary very well, and they've told me, you know, about the vibe and some of the issues and and rich and Mary are the same. They're they're my main teachers now, and Ty, and they also model this incredible kindness and respect and like gentle but but solid instruction. And they're just so, they're so equanimous, you know, yes, so that's what I really, you know, that's what Liam and I tried to make happen for our people, and we do a pretty good job. But it's them too. You know, they're very mature, that

Todd McLaughlin: 33:12

is. So I love hearing this. I'm curious, what is the word on the street, from your angle, about where the evolution will track in relation to practice in Mysore is Saraswathi noticing an even greater increase of numbers of people coming to practice with her since has passed away, or little bit that people are planning to still go to Mysore this coming season and just everybody get together and practice and see how it unfolds. What are you picking up on? It's very

Unknown: 33:47

confusing. So I don't know if you know I'm sure you know this, but Sriracha passed away here in Charlottesville, like, Yes, he was the University of Virginia, and John Bolton are down the road. We were Liam and I were not ourselves participating, because we're not his students, and so we couldn't gain I mean, you know, you had to be a student to be there. But the whole community was there, and we know a lot of those people, and you know, we're a small family. We're like, I feel like we and Charette students are like, first cousins, you know. So they were here. And when it happened, it was probably the biggest shock of my life. Actually, it was real, tremendously disturbing. And Charlottesville was flooded with people, and you know, a lot of them are good friends of mine, and I hung out with them and we talked, and there was a lot of who knows what's going to happen now, kind of going on, and a lot of grief. I then went and saw Saraswati Ji this past winter, and sat down with her and just kind of talk through what happened, you know, because she's like, you were there. Tell me, you know, what did you see? Because she was, you know, in India, she couldn't travel, and it, i the whole thing was just really fractured. While I was there, I talked to Lakshmi, you know, who's the chanting teacher, and he, he told me that the intention was for Shruti and Lakshmi Shah and Usha to kind of, you know, marshal their forces and continue to run the Shala. There were a lot of shots students who had signed up for that season, who were there last winter, and they were, kind of, there. Was almost like a tribute, you know, it's like they were Shruti was there just sitting dignified on the stage, kind of holding court. People were doing their practice. Sure, he's not really a teacher, you know, she's, I mean, she's been very important, but not as a as a teacher. And some of the teachers were there, some of the assistants, it was very free freestyle. Well, and then, yeah, there were people who received sort of, what would you call them, post mortem, mortem, or whatever, certifications and authorizations, because the family felt like these were coming, and they didn't want these students to feel robbed. And I know there's been all this brouhaha, and in my mind, a complete lack of generosity and tolerance. But, you know, that's just where I'm coming from, but, but I think the intention, certainly on the part of Lakshmi and Usha and Shruti is to maintain something now, whether Shruti wants to become the holder of a lineage, here's the thing, the lineage is being held firmly by Saraswati. And in fact, there's been this misunderstanding that Guruji left the lineage to Sharad. He actually left the lineage to both of them, and all the property to Saraswati, which was interesting, like he left her the actual physical shallow so it was clearly his intention that they continue to both teach. And when I started at KPJ, there was one Shala, two teachers, you know, you'd go to the website of the KPJ, Shala, and there was Saraswati and Sharat, and you chose a teacher. And we all, you probably remember we all chanted together. Well, maybe this was after, after your time, but we all chanted together. We all studied together. We we didn't, we didn't do our leads together, or my sort of together, but we used the big, shallow together. We were one community. And when Sara Swati decided that she wanted to start authorizing students that worked with her so that somebody like me, for instance, could be authorized, I never did this. BTW, I just didn't want to participate in the whole system. I mean, not that I was shunning people. I was just like, Yeah, I'm just not going to go there. And I told her, I said, Sorry, Swati, I'm not going to get authorized. Don't take it personally. She's like, Oh, no, it's fine. But anyway, when she started doing it, it created a rift, kind of an authority rift between her and Charette, and this rift rippled through the whole community. So suddenly there were two shalas, and it was sad, it was heartbreaking. So now I think that's where we are. Sarswati, Shala is thriving. I mean, I was there this past winter. It's the biggest Shala she's ever had. You know, for her, it was huge. Yeah, she's like, 84 years old, you know? Wow, I know. And, and shamila, her daughter, is there every day. Sharmila is, you know, there kind of shamila is holding the it's like the queen and the Prime Minister. You know, so much. He's the queen. She's the Prime Minister. But SARS wants teaching. She's like on the floor, holding people's feet up, doing the whole, I mean, Guruji taught till he was in his 90s, you know, yes, yes. So she's and it frustrates. I'm sorry, I'm getting a little but it, it is very exasperating to me when people say what's going to happen to the lineage? And I'm like, nothing. The lineage is just fine. In terms of the patabi joyous family lineage, Saraswati is, you know, up on her feet everyday teaching. And

Todd McLaughlin: 38:50

maybe, maybe the lineage part is where people are getting the most hung up on is this sort of stringent attitude about getting a new pose and or getting authorization or certification, so if, if we were to remove, and I'm not saying I'm a player in this sort of decision, but I mean just from a from a teacher perspective, from seeing what, how it works, with a long term experience with students, and how bodies do change, and how the practice does need to be modified. If the whole kind of removal, of giving poses as like, Okay, now you've earned it. You've bent far enough this way, we're gonna let you go bend far enough the other way that maybe then there would be less pressure on it. I'm sure it's way more dynamic than just that. I'm sure there's a whole power thing that happens. You know,

Unknown: 39:43

that's part of the power dynamic Todd, you know. So way back in 20, I don't know, 13 or 14, I started working very closely with Richard and Mary, and I noticed they didn't use that language ever, and they didn't take that approach ever. And if I wanted to learn something new, they would suggest it to me, like, Hey, would you like to try this? Or try it this way? Or I would say, Hey, will you teach me this? And we have a little conversation. And they were basically following my lead. They were saying, Sure, if you want to try it, we'll try it. And Ty also had worked with Richard Mary, and he's like, giving Post says, I can't give something I don't own, you know, and I felt like this is crazy language, and so we've never, we my husband and I and our students and our whole program, you know, we've got, we've got a deep bench in terms of our teachers, never, ever, ever, ever use that language. And sometimes we have people come in from other shallows, say. Okay, am I allowed to, like, if it's a Friday, am I allowed to practice? And, like, we don't use the word allowed. I'm like, you're allowed to do whatever you want, as long as you're not going to hurt somebody or hurt yourself. You know, like, you're not allowed to fall out of a headstand in my Charlotte, if you think you might fall take a wall. But that's the only rule, and you're not allowed to be nasty, and that's kind of the end of it. And yeah, it really is. What you're talking about is a it's sort of a symptom of a larger disease. And I personally think that the problem is not with the teachers and the lineage. I think the problem is with us. We want someone else to take responsibility for our own growth and development and for the decisions that we make like we don't want to own it, you know? And it's really great point. Carol, yeah, I had to decide to teach myself third series, because there was no one around who could teach me. So I had two or three other students. We were all in the same place, or we were like, third series curious. So we decided, okay, we're going to collaborate on this. And that's what we did. The three or four of us. We helped each other out, we troubleshooted with each other. We, you know, we jump up, and we just had this kind of it was very joyful, you know, and but it felt so rich. And I was like, Well, if we hadn't decided to just take responsibility for this, who am I going to go to who's going to teach me advanced, I don't know, you know, like, there aren't, there's nobody within a rock store of here, you know what I mean? So that kind of and, you know, the Ashtanga police would like turn on their sirens and come get me, but fortunately, we don't. We don't really deal with that. And

Todd McLaughlin: 42:31

you know, I hear you, I will. First of all, I'm very excited to connect with you, because I feel like we align very similar, similarly in relation to the statement that you made to Saraswati of just like, Look, I'm not interested in becoming authorized, so I hope that you're not offended, but I just have no drive or desire. I have a very similar sort of feeling, and I love meeting other people like you that are really focused on just the actual practice of it, and removing a lot of the hierarchical structure with the intent of increasing more peace and freedom for those that are around us, right? So, I mean, that is an amazing thing. I think that I'm super grateful to be in this place where we are not beholden to that. I do understand that there, there's value for folks that are in that sort of stream, like I get that I also enjoy hearing, or I'm fascinated by the fact that you made mention that there was a little bit of an Ashtanga police community right down the road from you. And I'm just curious if you can talk a little bit about why you might. I don't know how you feel about this. I can guess where you're going to go with this, but how we can benefit with symbiosis within our community versus fracturing, why it's really

Unknown: 43:57

important as a certified teacher, yeah, with Sharat, he he has my deep respect. He's, he's worked through, you know, a terrible motorcycle crash. He's, he's, I mean, he's dealt with a lot, and he's, his practice is, like, devoted, and his heart is big, and, you know, he really cares about what he's doing. And he really, he really believes in this traditional, you know, system and the way it works. And for some people, that works really well. I have had some people come to me out of that program and say, like, I've been stuck on this post for like, a year, and I'm never going to catch my heels and what, you know, and like, I want to keep moving. And so will you let me keep moving? And I'm like, sure. Like, sure we'll move, you know. So I think for some people, it's suffocating to be in that, in that container, but they also, because they respect the, you know, the integrity of that tradition, they don't want to be nasty about it. And I don't feel like iconoclast. I just know that for me, the priority is so far beyond Asana, like Asana is a means to an end, and when you start to lock down the asana, people get locked down in a lot of different ways, you know. And so what we're trying to do is use movement and and my emphasis, because I'm Richard's student and Thailand room student, is the subtle body and so we I believe there can be perfect, subtle body alignment patterns on all kinds of body shapes, you know, like, for instance, someone can get this. Subtle body the subtle body experience of an art of bada Padmasana pose without actually taking Padmasana, because their knees are going to be destroyed, but they can still find subtle body alignment, and it's not less than and it's not modified, and it's not so for me, like paying attention to subtle body alignment is way more powerful than physical body alignment, and part of the freedom of being out of the Ashtanga police constraints is that you really can watch a student's subtle body, You know, light up and you're not preoccupied with, where's the foot, or are they catching or, you know, all the things, all the little, all the external, well said horns, you know, and then, and then, you know, students start to feel crap about themselves. And whenever that happens, we're doing something wrong. I think, I mean, I just don't think there's any benefit to that at all. You know, we want students to walk out of the room feeling lighter than they came in, not and as a student, I had times when I was burdened with frustration, anger, resentment, confusion, all the things. And I'm like, why am I coming to yoga to feel like this? Like, me, yeah, I gotta work and feel like that, you know, just for us again, Mary, Mary and Richard, dear, dear friends and just like kind of models, and also Ty Landrum and Shan, these are dear friends of mine, but they also kind of model a life that, you know, I want to emulate when in doubt, be nice, you know, just be nice. So if we do something and kindness is not present, then we're, I don't think we're doing it right. And so when you get into like police activities, a lot of times, force takes over and kindness disappears, you know.

Todd McLaughlin: 47:41

Well, great point. We could look at that on different levels across the globe right now, right and see of what you're talking outside of the yogic system. It probably I'm, you know, I don't want to assume that everybody listening to our conversation is totally up to speed with the dynamics of Ashtanga, but I feel like everything we spoke of will give a really good idea, probably, if somebody is brand spanking new to yoga, the way I was when I first started, even the concept of a yoga police would be very odd to me. It would make me feel like, Wait, what are you even talking about? I can't even wrap my head around that. But

Unknown: 48:17

ever seen the cartoon Todd? There's this old cartoon. I don't know where it came from, but my friend Zoe Ward stuck it up in our Shala, and it has these three kind of limber people sitting in jail. And one guy's like, what are you in for? And one of the women goes, Oh, I did left leg first, and Johnny shasana. And then the other person said, I practiced on a Friday, you know? And if you're in Ashanti, you know exactly what they're talking about, yes, but if you're not, you're like, What? What? So that cult mentality is the kind of, it's like the underbelly of the Ashtanga system. And it's not pretty. It's not, you know, and it's something that we should be scared of, you know, this kind of Ashtanga cult, it's different than having like, you know, joy and memes, but we work really hard when new students come in to cut the terminology, to make them feel like they can belong and not like we're a weirdo cult. The other thing, and this is me being an astrologer, okay, I'm going to just put on that hat for a second. Um, the kind of astrology I practice is called evolutionary astrology, and it's very keyed into karma. Stephen Forrest, who's a magnificent astrologer, he came up with a system, and it syncs beautifully with yoga philosophy. I believe very strongly that the karma ripened in Ashtanga Yoga when Sharat left his body, that this was a profound ripening of karma. And you know, when karma ripens things, the fruit falls off the vine, like in the try and become, you know, like let the cucumber fall off the vine, ripe and ready. And when he passed away, this was a fantastic opportunity for Ashtanga to look at the karma and embrace the change and and sort of surrender some of these super heavy samskaras we've been carrying around with us for at least A decade, maybe longer. And some people are, you know, some, some of our community really is sort of saying, okay, you know, this karmic wave has broken, and so now what you know, and they're looking out. And then some people are scared and freaked out and in grief and panicking. Yeah, and they're kind of grasping onto the straws of the old karma, you know, and, and I just think this is a remarkable opportunity for our global community to be better, you know, than we were. Yes, and I don't know if we will,

Todd McLaughlin: 51:01

yeah. Well, good point. Well, some of us will and some won't, and

Unknown: 51:05

we have to keep loving each other because, you know, we're going through this is hugely traumatic, but it's also an enormous possibility for just looking, for kind of calming down for a moment, you know, and like looking and saying, Okay, this karma has finished. You know, shiraji Karma is finished. Now, where does that leave us and and what do we mindfully with our heart, want to do now? You know, because when, when gurus leave their bodies. You see this all the time. Communities either snap into hyper conservatism, or they start to dissolve, like a mandala, you know, like a like a Tibetan mandala, where they build these sand mandalas, and then they don't cling to them. They gather up the sand and they put it in a river. And here's the thing, Todd, you know this, and I know this, the Ashtanga system is has spilled, the spilled the banks of the Joyce family, like it has been in that river for so long, dispersing itself, and that's just going to happen, like, there's no one that can, like, get those grains of sand back and put them in a neat little pile, you know. So we're just here. We are, you and I are going to be yoga no matter what happens out there and the you know. And it's beautiful, really. It's not a sign of things being out of control. It's a sign of the the profound blessing of this and how it's burst the bounds of the lineage, you know, yeah, and I think this is wonderful, just for me.

Todd McLaughlin: 52:52

I hear, yeah, I love the way that you use that analogy. That's beautiful. I and it is really amazing to give appreciation to the entire family. It's fascinating how so much attention was placed on one person at a time, and then different degrees of energy place. But I think that now, like you said, in terms of the dispersal of the information and the amount of people that are now practicing Ashtanga Yoga and kind of holding it together in their own way, it is absolutely amazing, right?

Unknown: 53:25

Saraswati has been teaching Ashtanga Yoga since she was 23 years old, and she's 84 and you can do the math longer than any living person on the planet by a long shot. And Sharat wasn't even born when she was certified by Krishnamacharya himself to teach yoga. So again, she's one of the only, she's the only person in our lineage who was certified by Krishnamacharya. And I mean, she's that she actually gave me permission this past winter to write her biography. So I'm, I'm probably doing, yeah, I'm probably doing that in the next couple of years, I need, we got a lot of material to get together. And her daughter, Sharmila, is would like to She has amazing photos of this, these generations of yogis and this light. I mean, this family has devoted their entire life and well being to us, you know, to Western non caste. We're very serious Brahmins, and they teach us. And we're like nothing. We don't even have a cast, you know. So there's this incredible generosity. And, you know, I feel like Saraswati has been overlooked in the lineage, probably because she's a woman, you know. And I have a lot I want to say about that, and her daughter, Sharmila, again, as a woman, I

Todd McLaughlin: 54:45

want to hear what you have to say about that. Because one thing I've noticed recently in relation to Tantra Yoga, the more I've been studying in and then when I recently had a chance to speak with a very scholarly female who is a tantric, tantric yogi, Yogini. She it was so great to hear it from a woman's perspective, and how fascinating that here in the tantric world of the wisdom goddesses, or the worship of a goddess, that doesn't it make sense that a woman would be holding down teaching in a way where there'd be this nice, balanced approach without the kind of extracurricular, male, dominant sex energy that sometimes comes with it. It just seemed to make big sense that women would be really good at teaching that. So I just think it's fascinating that there's still that power struggle. Of course, there's still the power struggle because. Is the male female dynamic. I mean, we could go on and on, but I'd love to hear a little bit about how and why you think it's the time, why it's now time for for a female woman to be the lineage holder?

Unknown: 55:57

Yeah. I mean, here's the truth of it. Is that? Okay? So this is just me. I I believe this is true, and I don't have, like, corroborating evidence, except many conversations that I've had with my teacher, with Saraswati, but um, when Guruji, you know, he had two sons and a daughter, one of his sons passed away. Young. One of his sons, Manju, decided he really wanted to live in the West. After their first trip to India, Manju said, My soul belongs in the West, and I'm not coming back to India. And he pretty much that's what he did. And that left Saraswati at home with Guruji, and because she was a woman, she was given jobs like taking care of him, making sure he was fed, cooking, cleaning for the students as well. She teach them how to cook. You probably saw her in a kind of diminutive role, like an assistant role. And a lot of people don't know this. But not only was Saraswati one of the first people, the one of the only people in the Ashanti age, and one of the first people period woman to be certified by krishnacharya, but she was the first woman in India Todd to teach men yoga. And when she decided to do that, her father through a complete fit. He was like, Absolutely not. And she said, Guruji, if you can teach men, I can teach women, end of conversation. And so he let her initially, only on their trips in the West, she could teach, you know, she could assist. But that was different be a teacher. And then when they came home, she's like, I need to make a living. So she started going to temples. And at first she just taught women, and then some men were trickling in. And it was a, I mean, it was so avant garde Todd. It was like a, it was like a cultural revolution, a one woman cultural revolution for her to just say, I'm going to teach men. And it was embarrassing, you know, it was a big deal, and she did it, and she just kept doing it, and she's continued to do it. And I get kind of blown away by the degree to which many of many ashtanga yoga students don't understand her critical position in the lineage, you know, not just as Charlotte's mother, but also she made him. I mean, when trout was 19, he wanted to be an engineer, and she said, Nope, get in there. You're going to help your granddad. Like, she kind of took him in hand, and if she hadn't, like, pulled the mom card, Charlotte would have gone on and then an engineer. And she so if, if she had been Manju the sun, the lineage would have clearly passed through her to Sharat, and that would have been what everybody expected. And they would have continued to work together like they were. And then, when Manju passed away, or retired, charrette, would become a lineage holder, but because Saraswati was a woman, it like the kind of community consensus was that it skipped her and went to him, and it was very clear this is never guru's intention. And so I get I get frustrated because there's all this talk of parampara, like, it just went to him, and I'm like, Are you kidding me? Like, clearly, like, she owns the Shala, she owns the property. She's like, and, and so I think now it's interesting, right? Because there is no male lineage holder. I mean, I guess shamba, but you know, he he's not really a yoga. He has other interests. He's not really a yoga.

Todd McLaughlin: 59:48

How come? How come? Not Manju?

Unknown: 59:51

Because Manju is doing his own thing, you know, he chose, and he's teaching us, yeah, he chose, a long time ago, chose to step out and be in his stand in his own shoes, and he and Sarswati are very close. They're there. They have a deep, loving sibling relationship. But

Todd McLaughlin: 1:00:12

ask you your thoughts on that, yeah,

Unknown: 1:00:13

because he chose, you know, and, and, but I mean, he's still, of course, he's holding a lineage. But the thing, and then you go, what the heck is the lineage? You're holding? Like teaches this yoga, little grains of sand floating in the river, or holding a lineage and and I mean that to me, that okay, I talked about the karmic wave breaking. Here's what I think the opportunity we have as a community now karmically, is to reevaluate. Evaluate what lineage means and to be like, lineage is not authority, lineage is not hierarchy. Lineage is not blood. You know, lineages is this spirit of of teaching and this kind of beautiful, elegant structure that needs to keep changing, you know. And God bless him. The last thing shiraji Did in this world was active series, you know. And the problem is really that active series, Sara Swati response was, why we don't need this. We can do all these things like she already teaches activists,

Todd McLaughlin: 1:01:24

already doing that. It's already been it's everybody who's outside. But aren't you doing it? Like

Unknown: 1:01:30

we're all doing it, we're going huh? He must have been spying on us for the last 10 years, because this is what we do, you know. But, but the fact that he shiraji and his own kind of an intention, said, Okay, I'm going to make this, like, official, because I know that a lot of people in my community are really rule oriented people, and if there's not a new rule, they won't do it. You know, he understood his people, yeah, yeah. And he's like, okay, yeah, here's the new here's the new rules. And, you know, the University of Virginia is going to teach active series, and, like, people are teaching it, and I'm laughing and going, Wow, we were really ahead of the ball on that one. You know, we are in active series. We've already this is what we do, you know. So she's a little exasperated with the whole thing, understandably, because she was kind of, yeah, the point is, now we can, I think we can realize what lineage really means, and it does not mean authority, and it does not mean heredity, you know, and it's not based on DNA. And hopefully the parts of the lineage that are going to survive whatever happens next, are going to be the parts that the transformative, profound you know, the power of Using shades to heal the subtle body. Power of using rhythmic breathing to, like, wake up the nervous system. All these things, these kind of intangible things, you know, that Ashtanga Yoga provides and that the rest of it will just fall away. You know, it's like when a when a bird comes out of its egg. If the shell clings, the bird can't go anywhere, you know. So I think Ashtanga is a bird with its wings spread. We're out there and we're doing our thing, you and I, and you know, hundreds of other people and their little shallows, like we're doing this thing, and we're not waiting on someone to give us poses,

Todd McLaughlin: 1:03:45

yeah, Carolyn, I hear ya. I'm with you. Well. I mean, thank you for just being open and honest, and I really appreciate you not being fearful of speaking your mind, and sometimes, sometimes nothing to lose. A little scared, yeah, maybe we could have nothing to lose, right? I mean, it's a miracle every day that we can still just show up and have a space for our folks to show up and practice and I mean, that is really something special. I

Unknown: 1:04:14

look I have people who are way more courageous. My friend Ty Landrum is incredibly courageous. You know, he came to me when he first started with Black Lotus, and he said, Am I really going to do this? Like, are people going to hate me? And he's like, but this is what's rising up in me. And I'm like, if Ashtanga is a healthy parent, it's going to have babies, for God's sake. Like, go make a baby, you know, and it's a beautiful child. So I just think there are lots of people. Eddie, okay, so Eddie and I were hanging out a lot during the funeral. You know the when he came here for chards Memorial, and we talked for a long time. And, you know, it's interesting, Eddie felt the karmic wave crash and and then he took the freedom. And now look at what Eddie's doing, like he's yoga. Sangha, this new thing that he's doing has risen up out of him, and it's a child of Ashtanga Yoga. You know, it's like a it's like an offspring, and it's beautiful, and he has the courage to do this, and he's not going, Yeah, throw nobody's throwing away these people, I'm not throwing away Ashtanga. They're just saying. Ashtanga has has given birth to something in me, and I want to share it with people. And it's so awesome, you know? So I hope there will be more and more people who have the courage to share the children of this lineage with the world.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:05:40

You know, the. That is so well spoken, Carolyn, that I don't feel like we I need to ask you any more questions, although I really want to continue to continue our relate, our friendship or getting to know each other, but that is amazing. I feel like you spoke a powerful message, and I couldn't agree more with everything that you're bringing to the table here. I did want to prior to our conversation, just have you talk a little though about your book. Can you explain what your intention was or is behind the book that you wrote, the title and what the premise of it is?

Unknown: 1:06:21

Yeah, I'll be quick. So it's called practicing the Yoga Sutras, which my 30 year old son came up with as a title. But part of what we do at AYC is every and this is, again, Sara spotty taught me this, because when I started with her, this is what we did. We sit on Sunday mornings, and we call it yoga church. It's kind of a joke, because, you know, we're in the Deep South, and we chant the Yoga Sutras and we chant bhajans. My chant teacher, Lakshmi, taught me a lot, but actually, Dr Jayashree, I worked with her for a very long time. A lot of us have learned how to chant from Jayashree. So we chant her version of the Yoga Sutras, and then we chant, you know, the Ganesha bhajans and the and the guru rash to come and all those things together. And then we have been studying. We just go through the sutras like a little Bible study, but it's a sutra study, and we've been doing this for 15 years, and we're finally in book four. Took that long so through this process of chanting, talking, studying, sharing our experiences. It's been so rich a book rose up. What I realized was that the Yoga Sutras, there are tons of yoga sutra books, and they're amazing. But what was lacking was seeing the Yoga Sutras not as a philosophical system, but as a practice manual. And so what I wanted to do was I wanted to write a book that invited people to personalize, like deeply personalize, the sutras, to actually reflect individually. So the book itself, I have a sutra and the translation and a commentary, and then a question and a little bubble inside the book. It's like a journal to to write your reflections on the bubble, and then you just keep going. And it goes through all four books, every single sutra. So it doesn't like some of my the people I've have gotten back to me on it are like, Oh my gosh, you do books three and four. I'm like, Yeah, I know. Because usually commentaries one and two and then three four, you know, we're gonna give it all equal, you know. And it's been wonderful because it's given me a chance to like, share in a book form. My background is in academics, and I like to write, you know. So to share in a book form, the the kind of wealth of practical like embodied knowledge in the Yoga Sutras, not just this, but like, how to how to take the sutras and and like, live in them, like inhabit them, and how to let them basically repattern the mind in a way that creates very real, tangible impact in a life. And it was just super fun to write. And so now, you know, I I go to teacher trainings and do little sutras workshops, and I do them at the ashram, at yoga bill. And people I get, I still get really sweet letters. The book's been out for a little over a year, and people are still sending me emails saying, Yeah, this is really hard at first, because you were asking me to be really honest every single time. And I got kind of, you know, I got kind of, like, freaked out by that. But then when I just said, Okay, I'm because it's all self reflection, you know, I'm going to be honest. And I think that that's the difference. It is not an academic or an intellectual book, although, you know, I read 10 intellectual books to prepare it. It's really designed to be a very deep, personal kind of existential encounter with the text.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:09:58

Wow, very cool. Well, I'm going to get a copy and work through it. And yeah, I'll, I'll reach back out to you with some feedback. So cool. And for everyone listening, the the link is in the description, they can go to your website, get it from

Unknown: 1:10:13

Amazon.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:10:14

Takes a few days. Okay, cool. Directly

Unknown: 1:10:18

from the publisher. Either way, you can come see me in Charlottesville and I'll hand you one. Oh,

Todd McLaughlin: 1:10:23

man, I would love to come visit next time I make my way up into Virginia. I have family over in Tennessee, which isn't too far away, so I'll definitely make a point

Unknown: 1:10:34

that's cool, yeah, to have you. We have a lot of we call it the global, you know, there's a global. Ashtanga diaspora. And they're people who, like, don't have a shallow where they live, and so they'll pass by and pop in and go, Oh, look, people I can practice with. You know, we're kind of like the Catholic Church Todd, you know, you show up at any shallow anywhere, and they're doing the same thing. It's, it's so comforting, I

Todd McLaughlin: 1:11:01

hear you that is a fascinating component of ritual, right? When there's a ritual and I agree, well,

Unknown: 1:11:08

these are my people. I found them, right? Yeah. Well, it's great to meet you, Todd, to spend some time together, like in person. Sometime,

Todd McLaughlin: 1:11:18

I agree. Everyone's had so many nice things to say about you that had practiced with come down and visited here. So I really appreciate the introduction that was made for us by Tim Renick. Actually was the one who came in and you ever interviewed Carol Ann and so, yeah, he's really sweet. So thank you so much.

Unknown: 1:11:35

And he's coming, Ty's doing a workshop here in November, and Tim's going to come, so I'm looking forward to that. That's

Todd McLaughlin: 1:11:40

cool. And Tim was here, he was practicing the Black Lotus sequence. And so it was fun to watch. Cool yeah, really very Yeah. A nice vinyasa. Yes, yes.

Unknown: 1:11:51

So intelligent, so well designed. And it has this beautiful balance between forward bending and backward bending, even in the first series, which I really appreciate. So it's beautiful,

Todd McLaughlin: 1:12:04

yeah, I think there's room for everything, right, yeah. And it's pretty cool too, to have somebody come in and practice the sequence that is. Ashtanga, like, Yeah, different. And have everybody

Unknown: 1:12:16

patterning really strongly and good on you for letting them do that. Go. Todd, well, no, seriously, some people would be like, What are you doing? Get out of here.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:12:28

Yeah. I mean, life is way better when you make room for variation. Yeah, that's

Unknown: 1:12:33

awesome. Well, I'm glad. Well, I'll get down there at some point, and you've got such a pretty space, I can see by looking at it

Todd McLaughlin: 1:12:39

behind. Well, thank you, Carolyn, thank you. I know right,

Unknown: 1:12:45

yeah. Need to get a big Lakshmi Morty and stick it up there and do some pushes to it,

Todd McLaughlin: 1:12:51

for sure, for sure. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much. Carolyn, I have a feeling we're going to bump into each other in person here. All right.

Unknown: 1:12:59

Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. Bye

Todd McLaughlin: 1:13:04

native, yoga Todd cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you like this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com, and hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it and review and join us next time

Unknown: 1:14:00

you.