Nathan Thompson: From Addiction to Awakening — Ashtanga, Buddhism & Escaping Samsara

Nathan Thompson is a devoted practitioner of Ashtanga yoga and Buddhism with a unique journey from addiction recovery to spiritual exploration. Originally from London, Nathan has immersed himself in the cultural and spiritual landscapes of Southeast Asia, residing in Laos while frequently engaging with the communities in Thailand and Cambodia. He hosts the podcast "Escaping Samsara," where he shares insights from his personal journey and interviews with spiritual teachers and practitioners. Nathan is known for his disciplined practice, open-minded exploration of different meditation techniques, and deep commitment to personal growth and mindfulness.

Visit Nathan: https://escapingsamsara.substack.com/ 

IG: https://www.instagram.com/escsamsara/

Key Takeaways:

• Nathan discusses his journey from addiction to spiritual awakening, highlighting the role of Goenka's meditation techniques.
• The real meaning of "Escaping Samsara" as an evolving concept and its connection to Nathan's experiences in both Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism.
• Impact of fatherhood on Nathan’s spiritual path and its influence on his understanding of interconnectedness and compassion.
• Insights into the differences between Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism, especially regarding the concept of individual vs. collective liberation.

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Transcript

Todd McLaughlin: 0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast, so happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage, body work and beyond. Follow us at @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Hello. How are you doing? Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. My name is Todd McLaughlin, and I am delighted to bring Nathan Thompson onto the show today, and I've been enjoying Nathan's work for quite some time now. He has a podcast called Escaping Samsara, which you can find on all the listening platforms. He has a sub stack escapingsamsara.substack.com and he is can also be found on Instagram, at @escsamsara. So I'll have that those links in description, click it, follow and write him a message. Let him know what you think I really value the energy and time that Nathan has put into his self care, his family, his ashtanga yoga practice, his Buddhist meditation practices, the amount of different people he has studied with all around the world. He lives in Laos. He is active in practice, daily practice and raising his family. And I just learned so much from listening to him, and really enjoyed this conversation episode. I hope you do as well. On that note, well, let's go ahead and begin. So excited to be here with Nathan Thompson, Nathan, thank you so much for joining me today. Can you tell me how you're feeling?

Nathan Thompson: 2:28

Oh, hi, Todd. Like this is totally weird for me, because usually on the on the other side of the mic, so it's both a privilege to speak with you and also an odd experience at the same time, I

Todd McLaughlin: 2:38

understand that you have a you do amazing work with your podcast escaping samsara. Everybody can find you in the links in the description on your Instagram and sub stack page. You know, I guess. Let's first start with escaping samsara. Let's pretend we have an audience that has no idea what the word samsara means. Can you explain what you mean by the title escaping samsara,

Unknown: 3:02

yeah, well, thanks for the kind words. Escaping samsara was something that was a big part of what drove my practice, because I became into practice with two gifts, which is which has allowed me to, like, continue practicing discipline and desperation. So, like, luckily, I was born with like, a kind of discipline, like, that's never been too hard. I've never been one of those people that struggled to wake up early in the morning. So that's a gift I was I was given. I was also given the gift of desperation, because I was addicted to drugs from the age of 16 to, like, 24 ish, and by the age of 25 I was in rehab. And then I really struggled to stay clean after that. And when I came to practice Ashtanga and Buddhism, the idea of escaping samsara sounded great to me, because as far as I was concerned, the world was just pure suffering. So in a way, I was pretty primed for Buddhism, like when I came across it, I was like, Oh, thank you. Someone's actually speaking to me. It's not a kind of like peace and love. It's like, no, life sucks, and this is how you're going to solve that problem. And I was like, hell, yeah, they'll sign up for that. And that drove my practice for a while, and it was a good reason to practice, I think. And when I started the podcast, I was just coming to the end of that and escaping samsara seemed like quite a cool sort of way to encapsulate it. And then I had my first child, and I think that's when everything changed. I realized a connection with the world, and that the world was actually a beautiful place, not that, like I didn't have fun before then, of course, but there was a deep sense of, like, I don't know, angst, I suppose. And when I had my child, the first child, I remember thinking, wow, I'm actually connected to the universe, connected to the earth, in a way I've never been before. And it was interesting. At the time, I was also exploring Mahayana Buddhism, which is much more less about escaping samsara. And realizing that samsara is actually just your untrained mind, and it's not about getting out of the world, and my understanding of it now is much more along those lines. So I'm still down for escaping samsara, but I understand samsara. I understand samsara to be my own untrained mind, as opposed to

Todd McLaughlin: 5:24

the world. Yeah, great answer. Isn't it great how well I love how you the evolution process. To hear about your evolution the title that you chose. I appreciate that you're staying with the title, you know, in a sense of like, Hey, let me honor who where I was, and also under the fact that I can evolve, change, shift, grow, that's really cool, man. So you said first child, you have more than one child?

Unknown: 5:49

Yeah, I got two age five and two. Oh, man and yourself, congratulations.

Todd McLaughlin: 5:53

I do. I have two age 19 and 12.

Unknown: 5:57

Oh, okay, wow, yeah, yeah. Sort of a whole teenage thing. I'm, I'm sort of like, both looking forward to it and dreaded.

Todd McLaughlin: 6:05

It's not as bad as everybody says, but it is a lot. It is a lot. I had the same feeling you have kind of like, you know, it's already challenging enough when they're in that younger age. It's beautiful. It's amazing. It's challenging. So you hear people say, Well, get ready. Bigger children, bigger problems. And you're like, Oh, no. Like, take any more. This is but that's so cool. Man. Where do you live? I live in Laos, amazing. Well, how Where are you from, originally?

Unknown: 6:31

So originally from a town called beckonsfield, which is very near London. I was born in London, so mostly London area, excuse me. And in 2013 I moved to Cambodia, and, yeah, I lived there, and I met and married my wife there, and then we moved to Laos. We've been in Laos five, six years now. Um, but I do also include Thailand in my sort of living arrangement, because I spend a lot of time in Thailand, like on retreat and working for a company in Thailand. I was often in Bangkok, so I sort of include like, Bangkok, sorry, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, as my general living situation since 2013 but now I'm in Laos right now.

Todd McLaughlin: 7:10

So incredible. How do you like it? What is the feeling there?

Unknown: 7:14

Oh, I really appreciate living in Laos, because it's a very small communist country that few people know, well, few people think about, and in that way, you're very insulated from a lot of the stuff you have to deal with in developed countries. So my wife's from Australia, so I visit Australia and England regularly, and there's a lot of angst. I'm sure people know what I'm talking about, and you do. You are protected from that a little bit living in Laos, where, sure, living in a communist dictatorship is bad, but also, you're also sort of free from a lot of the kind of strife that can happen so

Todd McLaughlin: 7:55

interesting democracies that are struggling. Oh, wow, we could go so many directions from here. I mean, well, I want to hear a little bit more about in your experience when you say it's difficult. Can be difficult living in a communist country with a dictator. How do you see and feel that in your day to day experience? Because and can you juxtapose that between what the feeling is like in Thailand, I absolutely love Thailand and I don't feel like, would you classify Thailand as a communist dictatorship? No, right, that's or maybe I'm maybe, let me just see. I'd love to hear what you have to say.

Unknown: 8:35

Yeah, like, so basically, anyone who knows Laos will have to forgive me for talking a little bit glibly earlier, I was sort of coming at it from a sense of humor. If I'm being a bit more serious about it, then like I need to contextualize myself as I am, like a privileged expat that lives in a privileged expat bubble in a communist society. The people who are actually born and live here, it's very different for them, right? Saying that I'm not like they have problems and they have benefits that are different to the problems and benefits you live in America or England, right? And their society is a lot more kind of traditional, which, again, has like benefits and lots of benefits, right? So it's harder for young people to sort of break out of their traditions and express themselves. There's not a lot of like, artists and, you know, stuff like that. Like, no, there's no graffiti, for example, just one example. So that's like a downside. But then on the plus side, the society is a lot less narcissistic and a lot less, in general, worried about how they're coming across in terms of their appearance. I think that's something I notice. I know I'm just speaking as an outside observer. Obviously, I'm not loud, and I'm sure they deal with that on some level, but I think in general, as a vibe, you get a sense of like there's less of that. Like angst and having just one politically, people don't really, I don't know. I'm not really sure what to say about it, but basically, they don't have the same kind of, you know? I don't. I'm also privileged in the fact that I don't have to worry so much about my country going downhill because I don't live in my country, you know? And, yeah, that allows me a certain freedom from the stress that I think people live within the UK and Australia and America. Wow.

Todd McLaughlin: 10:32

Thank you. Great, great insight. I'm so appreciative to hear this. Thank you. So what did you how? When did you first come across stronger? You said, at age 25 you had a turnaround experience of, you know, let me, let me try to evolve my path. Here was that when you started practicing yoga and and coming across Buddhist meditation, what was the trajectory and timeline for your introduction to this world.

Unknown: 11:05

Yeah. So why don't I just go through the people who taught me, right? And I can go through an order, because that might one way of looking at it. Thank you. So I started with Goenka. Goenka courses, I'm sure you're familiar. It's my my current meditation teacher has called Goenka, the Starbucks of meditation, in a way that it's all over the world. Everyone gets the same thing. It's very high quality. No disrespect, good stuff. But Goenka was great for me, and probably the biggest thing when I started going to those courses was that it was donation only, and I was like a broke just off drugs. Like when I walked into my first course, I actually threw my cigarettes away, and then 10 minutes I threw them in the bin, and then, like, half an hour later, I was scrabbling through the bin.

Todd McLaughlin: 11:51

Oh, God, no, that's what. How was that first 10 days in terms of withdrawals? Were you did you find it wasn't as bad as you thought

Unknown: 11:58

it was going to be? I was off, I was off heroin, like, about a month at that point. So I was clean off the drugs for a month, and then I threw my cigarettes away and went in. I had to be convinced to stay twice, like two times. I walked up to management. I was like, I need to get out of here. Yeah. Like, now, yeah. And they, they luckily talked me down, and I completed the course, and when I walked out for the first time in 10 years, the loop that was in my brain of, like, got to take drugs, got to take drugs. How do I get drugs? It was gone. It was just gone for the first time in 10 years. And I remember walking out going, Wow, this is actually works, you know, and that actually lasted for about two weeks. So like, obviously, it's not a magic bullet, and the want to take drugs did come back, but those two weeks were the longest time in 10 years that it hadn't, hadn't been there. So I was convinced then that, like, Okay, this is my path, and this is what I need to do to, like, get my life back on track. And I was also lucky that my parents were supporting me, letting me live at home, and I wasn't working, so I was able to practice two hours a day. And in every three months, I went and did another course, and then I was, like, serving a course. And so I did that for three years. So I did, I went through a lot of courses in that time, and I definitely improved. And after, like, I don't know, six, seven months or 10 months, I thought I would do yoga, because I thought that might help me sit right. And I came across Kino McGregor's old DVDs. The first one she put out. So big respect to Kino there for, like, putting out, because I didn't know anything about it. I just saw Ashtanga, and I thought, well, at least that sounds like an Indian name, like I want something vaguely authentic here. So I got that those DVDs, and I learned by myself for maybe four or five months, six months, and I was quite lucky. I had already open hips and an open back genetically. So I didn't just immediately trash myself. Had quite tight hamstrings, you know. So, I mean, I'm in a kind of western male body, so I in a lot of ways, and I was young. I was like 2526 and I had quite good upper body strength naturally. So I think I was quite genetically suited for Ashtanga, and I was at the right age for it. And after a few months, I walked into hamish's Charlotte in London, and was able to visit there for a little bit. So that's how I got into it. There's actually a lot more I could get into, but maybe if you want to stop there, or I can keep going, oh man.

Todd McLaughlin: 14:30

Well, yeah, there's, there's so much stuff we can talk about. But I want to, I want to kind of still get this bird's eye view of your overall trajectory to where we are here today. So I'd love to continue listening to what where you, what your steps were here.

Unknown: 14:46

Yeah, so I got the opportunity to go and volunteer in a like mini NGO, teaching monks English in Cambodia in 2013 and I was so ignorant I thought. A Brody was in Africa at the time, like, provincial, yeah, I didn't even care. I didn't care where it is, like, I've obviously got nothing going on in England. I was depressed. I made a mess my life, right? You know, living at home, my parents was like, yeah, get me. Get me out of here.

Todd McLaughlin: 15:18

Can I ask you? Nathan, then, in relation to guenka story of being born in Burma, or no being born in India, going to Burma, meeting his teacher, ubakhin, going back to India, teaching. So in that process of you practicing and taking courses, did you start to understand that sort of geography of like Theravada Buddhism versus Mahayana Buddhism, and how their differences are there in relation to the approach?

Unknown: 15:47

No, not really. It's a while. I don't think I thought too deeply about it. I was the good thing about Goenka is, as you know, he makes it super ecumenical, and you don't have to believe anything or really understand much to get the effects. And I was getting really good effects, so I didn't really dive too deeply into it, although I do. I did take his Sati patana course at one point, so I did have some understanding, but I really didn't know much.

Todd McLaughlin: 16:17

Understood. Okay, cool. I just when you say Cambodia. I just didn't know if that's that some point that piece, but I'm guessing, well where, let me let you continue on. So you got to Cambodia? Yeah.

Unknown: 16:29

So I, you know, moved in, they had me stay at a temple, because it was basically a new NGO that was set up by a woman who I knew through my brother, and she was, her family were from that village, so she's Cambodian American, and she was going back to her mother's village, and I was going to be the English teacher, and she was going to set up this stuff to benefit the kids. So they didn't have anywhere for me to stay, so they just put me in the pagoda in the temple with the monks. So I was just, like, walked in, like, started living with these monks in Cambodia, apparently, to teach them English. I was not really prepared for any of this stuff, and luckily, she just took a shine to me. So again, I really was lucky to meet her. She was just like, hey, I love that. You're interested in Buddhism. You're going to live with the monks. We're going to make this work and stuff. And then after a few months, you had to go home. There was some kind of family emergency, and I just ended up living at this temple by myself, and it was about that time I met my root teacher. Her name is Beth, and she's authorized by Gil fransdell. Maybe you've heard of him.

Todd McLaughlin: 17:33

Do you say Rue teacher? Root, root, root. I'm sorry. Now I understand. I'm sorry I misunderstood. Gotcha. No, those names, don't I don't know those names. Please educate me.

Unknown: 17:44

Yeah. Gil fransdell runs Insight Meditation Center in Redwood City,

Todd McLaughlin: 17:50

California, ah, which is a party. Is that a part of Spirit Rock, and

Unknown: 17:54

it's associated, okay, got it, yeah. So she's authorized by him, and she lives in Cambodia. She's like a Zen nun, and she was doing stuff in Phnom Penh. She was running an organization to, like, help people with AIDS, right? So anyway, she just became my teacher, and it is to my to this day, although she's she's getting on a bit now and then, I just sort of lived in Cambodia, and I studied with her, like, every week. And she, like, really taught me the roots. That's why she's my root teacher, right? She taught me, like, the five precepts of Buddhism, which are basically the same as the the Yamas, really. And actually, you should, like, live by those. And it was about that time that I fully gave up alcohol as well. And also the paramese, which are the 10 perfections, the 10 perfections of character. So she, she, I had come from a very like, hey, let's meditate. Like, let's let's make have results. Let's be a meditator. But she actually taught me like, no, no, there's a whole lifestyle here, and you need to live that lifestyle like first thing, right? So she taught me that. And then at the same time, I was living with monks in these, in this, like, rural, traditional Buddhist setting. So I understood really a lot about the culture and how, like, Buddhist people actually practice Buddhism, which is actually quite different to how it's practiced in the West, right? You know, for I was the only person meditating in that temple, like, no joke, interesting. That was mind blowing to me at the time. Yeah, Buddhism is all his own meditation. No, it's actually a whole thing. It's a whole religion. Not a lot of it isn't to do with meditation. Do you

Todd McLaughlin: 19:33

think they were or do you think they would giggle a little bit behind you, or, you know, or with you about, look how, look how excited this Westerner is. Or do you feel like they were? They felt that was endearing. And did they appreciate your sincerity and interest?

Unknown: 19:50

I think on the most part, they appreciated the sincerity and interest.

Todd McLaughlin: 19:53

Yeah, cool. I like hearing that. Yay. And so you were in Cambodia from 20. 13 until, and I feel like he kind of got me a little up to speed before. In relation to where did you meet your wife?

Unknown: 20:09

Yeah, so after about 14 months living in the village, I moved to Phnom Penh and got a job as a journalist, and then I lived in Phnom Penh and did that, and I met my wife there maybe a year later, and we got married a few years after that, still in Cambodia. She's from Australia.

Todd McLaughlin: 20:27

Very cool. Now, did you have journalistic training slash study, or did you just kind of come in with a pen and paper and say, I'm ready, let's go.

Unknown: 20:35

I didn't formally study journalism, but I'd always been writing a lot, and you know, even as I was an addict, I was I would earn money by like, writing articles for magazines and newspapers and stuff. And when I went to Phnom Penh at the time, I was pretty lucky, because in 2013 there was actually three very good, high standard English language newspapers, daily newspapers in Phnom Penh and to English language magazines. So I was able to get work with them, and then it just sort of built from there.

Todd McLaughlin: 21:08

That's cool. How do you relate? How do you feel like your journalistic background is facilitating or helping your journalism that you're doing now. Do you look at your podcasts that you do because you interview those interested and fascinated and have their lives surrounded in yoga, Buddhism, meditation and this whole world? What sort of skills have you been able to pick up from journalism that you're now able to apply to your podcast?

Unknown: 21:42

I well, I guess I'm used to interviewing people, so that helps. But like, honestly, I think you're a great interviewer. I don't know if you ever done this background, but I don't, I don't think I do a great job, to be honest. I think you do a fantastic job. You're well prepared. You like, you listen, you ask questions and stuff. I'm, I'm a lot more fly by the seat of my pants type thing with

Todd McLaughlin: 22:05

it. Well, it's very kind. Thank you.

Unknown: 22:09

Well, so I don't think it's that special, all right.

Todd McLaughlin: 22:12

I mean, so I guess from a journalism perspective, are there any key tenants that we should be following, or is it just be curious and try to be as truthful as possible. What sort of in your own work, do you have any core tenants that you try to live by?

Unknown: 22:32

I mean, honestly, because so much of what we do is is social media focused in terms of how we get them work out there, what I did a I did a job. See, I actually quit being a journalist in around covid, and then I got a job in PR. And actually, what I learned in PR is probably a little bit more relevant in terms of what you say online, how you present yourself. I think I use those skills more than journalism, per

Todd McLaughlin: 22:59

se, that's interesting. What are you feeling currently with the climate that we're in? When you get asked questions that feel sticky and you're wondering, uh oh, how is this going to land? Is there any PR tips you could educate me on that that you find are smart designed for, built to last type of, type of strategy. I'm just curious.

Unknown: 23:28

I mean, you don't want to go anywhere controversial. That's the first rule of PR. It's just because I was working for a pretty big company, a finance company. So I can only speak for what works for finance company, which also, ironically, somehow works quite well for a little podcast, which is like, yeah, like anything sensitive, just don't go there, I mean, and sure, like, journalists can go there, but I'm not a journalist right now. I'm just doing a fun podcast about meditation, like going to, like controversial political places. That's not my remit. And I'm totally within my rights to say, Hey, that's not what I cover. I'm about escaping samsara here. I'm not about talking about whatever political hot potato is going on. And I think you, you, you're there's nothing wrong with taking that position. Yeah, some people, I think, feel like they need to go there, like, they have some kind of duty, but like, Dude, there's training for that. There's people who go through years of school to be able to do that. Well, I think Kena McGregor is doing pretty well with it. I mean, she put out a podcast with a professional facilitator to, like, work through some of that stuff. I think that's an example of someone who doesn't have a background doing it well. But I think it can be a real minefield. And there's nothing wrong with just saying, Hey, that's not my remit. I'm here to discuss this, and that's where I stand. You know,

Todd McLaughlin: 24:45

yes, that's cool. I appreciate that. I hear you. What is can you talk now a little bit about your evolution of thought regarding like you said, you started with Vipassana. Tradition with through Goenka. And then you mentioned the word Mahayana. Can you first explain what Mahayana means to you?

Unknown: 25:08

Yeah, just before we just go on to Mahayana, I should mention that my teacher, Beth, who's like was my main teacher, she taught Mahasi style Vipassana, which is also from Burma, and it's different to Goenka style. It is based on the same root text, but there are quite a lot of key differences. And so I flipped from Goenka to Mahasi style, and actually did Mahasi style for must have been five when was it? It must have been five years, I would say five years studying Mahasi style.

Todd McLaughlin: 25:44

Vipassana, interesting. I haven't heard of Mahasi style Vipassana. Can you outline some of the characteristics that differentiate the Goenka version from the Mahasi style? Yeah.

Unknown: 25:59

So Goenka put his so Goenka, his teacher was uberkin, as we know, uberkin was teaching in the 50s, kind of, I think, and Mahasi was kind of contemporaneous. Mahasi was a monk who also lived in Myanmar. I forget exactly where, but it might be Mandalay. And both of them came at the Buddhist texts with the idea of, like, basically bringing the texts to life. In the modern world, where they had a lot of colonialism come in, there was a lot of scientific stuff. There was this kind of vibe. And India went through the same thing to, like, make their traditional techniques viable with science, and Goenka was very much in that kind of idea. Mahasi also did the same thing, and they both used the same text, which is the Satipatthana Sutta. So they both agree that the Santi patana sutta is perhaps one of the best meditation manuals in the Pali Canon for use by modern people, but they both came to different conclusions in how to interpret and teach it. For Goenka, basically the Satipatthana means the four foundations of mindfulness. So there's four ways to practice mindfulness. They they are the body, the feelings, the mind, and then, like the mind states. Now if for Goenka and very hardcore Goenka, people might correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not 100% on this, but my understanding is that all four of these occur in the bodily sensations. So by scanning the body and doing bodily sensations, you're experiencing all four sati patanas Like at once, because nothing manifests that isn't a sensation in the body, which is true. So no, it's a great argument. I don't have a problem with it. That's a great way to practice for Mahasi, he's more like we're going to work with whatever Sati patana comes up in the moment. So if you're experiencing strong bodily sensations, then you observe the body. If you're experiencing strong emotions, you come away from the body. You observe the emotions. Same for thoughts, same for mind states. And really, that's the main difference. So, yeah, yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 28:14

Well, that's cool. Do you feel like the Mahasi style is almost leaning a little more toward the Mahayana approach of samsara. Is nirvana?

Unknown: 28:30

No, they're both.

Todd McLaughlin: 28:31

It's still a very

Unknown: 28:33

big Theravada. All right, okay, yeah, yeah. Mahasi was a traditional Theravada monk. Goenka, very traditional Theravada. I mean, Myanmar is a very traditional heartland of of Theravada. Yeah, so their understanding would be Theravada based. Got it and yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 28:51

Then, can you help myself and the listener understand how you see difference between the Theravada and the Mahayana in the overall approach of perceiving the body and the mind.

Unknown: 29:05

Yeah, thanks for the question. I should caveat this by saying I'm not a scholar, and I'm just coming at it from a personal practice point of view. Thank you. A little bit of study that I've done. Yeah, thank you. But yeah, like the difference? Wow. I think one of the key differences is the scope of practice. So Theravada is often criticized. Well, they use this pejorative term called the Hinayana, which means the smaller vehicle they some people claim it's not pejorative, but it feels pejorative to me as a mostly Theravada practitioner anyway. And they mean. What they mean by that is, we're talking about individual liberation here. So this is the whole escaping samsara thing, where it's all like, Hey, you're you've got a human body in all the countless rebirths you could possibly have in the universe. You've hit, like multiple lottery jackpots. Don't waste your time. Get the fuck out, right? Whereas Mahayana. Yeah, it's much more about practicing in community. You know? It's like, Hey, what is my relationship with this other being? How can I be compassionate with this other being? And, of course, the great vehicle is, the whole point is to liberate all beings at the same time. Yeah, but what the theravadas, theravadans, sometimes miss is they can take a little bit literally, because I've heard Theravada monks say, Do you know how long it's going to take to liberate every individual being in the universe? You're going to be in samsara for like, 10 bazillion years. But really, if, if all experience is there, is the play of your own mind. Then by liberating every sentient being, you're essentially like liberating yourself. And that's the key sort of thing there. So it definitely dives a little bit deeper. Not to say that Theravada is not very deep, but I think philosophically it goes it's more sophisticated, perhaps

Todd McLaughlin: 31:01

Great answer. Thank you so much. We know when you made a mention earlier, that when you became a dad, you felt a unique shift in your connection to the earth and your experience in the world. Is that would you relate or translate that experience with, then your kind of expansion into, well, let me explore this Mahayana path. Was there, was there? Did those two things happen very close to each other? I'm just kind of curious about how, because I had a similar when I with children, I had a similar sort of awakening of like, wow, my whole role in this experience has shifted, you know, and just, you know, absolute awe and desire to be as as good as I come can possibly be for my for my children. So I guess when you when you're talking about is sort of practicing in singularity versus community and or the intention of singularity escaping versus being in community and being patient for everybody to go through this journey. Do you feel like that? That is a similar element of parenthood.

Unknown: 32:21

That's a good point. The thing is, my understanding has changed, right? So when I had my first child, which was 2020, I still had, like, a fairly immature view of what the Theravada was really talking about. And I had sort of come to the conclusion that if you weren't a man, and if you weren't a monk, then they were a little bit like, here, good luck. Is was their attitude? But that's not their attitude at all. I'm still very I'm still mostly a Theravada practitioner, and my my understanding has changed that actually theravadans are very community focused, but it's very easy to get the wrong message. And even after many years of like, kind of studying and living in these these areas, I had still imbibed the message that you need to be a monk. And you know, if you have a child, then, like, you know, you're going to be stuck in samsara for like, a bunch more lifetimes. And if you had better merit, then you would not have a child, and you would be a monk, right? Your karma is not good enough. And that's kind of a shadow side of Theravada that I was a bit, got a bit hung up on. But I would like to say that, like now my understanding is much is different, and I don't think Theravada is like that at all. I think Theravada is very community focused, and there's a lot of room for family. But at the time I had the child, I had my daughter, and there was just a lot of other stuff going on, right? Because it was covid. I was very lucky that I had a good covid experience, because we were in Australia on a beach, and I know, like, like, I was very lucky, okay, I know, I know a lot of people went through hell, and that was, that was tough. And obviously it wasn't, you know, a barrel of loss for us. I mean, we were stuck, and I couldn't leave the country, and blah, blah, but mostly it was in a good situation. And, you know, I basically came to the end of a cycle of practice of about 10 years doing Vipassana, where I really felt like a cycle complete. And then at the same time, I just sort of picked up a random YouTube course called the vimalakirti experience by Michael tafton MC Owens. And I still study with MC Owens to this day. He's great. It might still be on YouTube, and I just did that course. And it really, it was supposed to be a kind of an introduction to the to the Mahayana And so that happened just around that. I just randomly was doing it at the time my child was born. And so all these three things came together. It was like, it was covered. So everything was, like, super intense and energized. And then this whole cycle of practice for 10 years sort of came to an end, and then my whole role in the world was completely shifted, because now I was a father. And then at the same time the Mahayana, like, just came up and was all like, boom, like, Hey, I'm. Hyanna, and I'm totally blowing your mind right now. And yeah, like, I mean, for example, I remember the moment when Michael Taft, who's great meditation teacher, he was doing a guided meditation, and he just said something like, let your sense of self melt like butter. And for some reason that instruction just hit me and something unclenched that had been clenched my whole life, right? And then I was suddenly like, boom, whoa. Like, yeah, like, the thing was sort of relaxed, whatever this thing is, and there was a lot of what was driving my practice, and this sense of separation sort of was definitely melted away. And, you know, and then my child was there, and then that whole process started. So there was a lot of stuff happened. It was a very powerful time. I was also deeply involved in men's work as well. So I don't know if you know much about the men's work stuff, but I was part of this group. It was super intense. It was all shadow work. People were shouting at each other, crying, like beating the floor. It was like mad, like encounter work was happening at the same time. So it was crazy.

Todd McLaughlin: 36:11

Oh, man, well, that's I hear you. I feel like we have to go through that sort of stuff to kind of process all the things we came across as children. And I hear you, man, well, are you when you, if you give advice to say, you meet a 25 year old that's just coming out of, say, a similar journey that you are on. I know there's a lot of probably we'll just stick say, Well, men or women that are age 20 to 25 that are partying pretty hard, and you have that little moment of like, Wait, okay, now's the time I'm going to start focusing in a different direction. What sort of advice would you give that niche crew based off of what you've learned? If you could just give them a couple of words of wisdom advice? What do you think it would be?

Unknown: 36:59

I mean, are we talking about people who are like completely dysfunctional addicts or people who are just like struggling with the partying.

Todd McLaughlin: 37:09

You're right. There's a distinction there. Let's go. Let's go. Let's kind of somewhere in the middle of those two.

Unknown: 37:16

Yeah, problematic partying. Maybe

Todd McLaughlin: 37:22

good. Way to good, nice middle word, I like that.

Unknown: 38:13

I'm just going to repeat what Ram Dass said, which was instrumental for my journey, and I can probably quote him like near enough verbatim, because this was so important for me to hear. But he said something like, when people come to me with addictions, I never say, meet the addiction head on, because that's going to cause a backlash. If you try to, like, push or change yourself from from a top down type approach, the mind will rebel. So what I say to people who come to me with addictions is take up a spiritual practice. Take up something that will help you see yourself in a new way, and let the addiction fall away. When it falls away, great. I think that that advice was massive for me. Like, yeah. So good.

Todd McLaughlin: 39:00

Yeah. Very cool. How are you teaching yoga in Lao? Are you teaching Ashtanga?

Unknown: 39:12

No, I did. I did a teacher training with Gregor mele, but I've never really taught yoga. I've always just been a practitioner, although I am about to start a weekly meditation class.

Todd McLaughlin: 39:22

Cool is that something that you're doing only in person? Are you doing it online or hybrid?

Unknown: 39:29

No, just just at the local yoga studio. I'm just going to do once a week, and standard Buddhist meditation, I think cool.

Todd McLaughlin: 39:38

What was it like practicing with Gregor mile? I love his books. I've never met him. Can you tell me what that was like?

Unknown: 39:47

Yeah, Gregor, for me, it was all about the pranayama, because I wanted to learn pranayama, and I sort of narrowed it down to a few teachers that I think, that I thought were qualified and sincere and also accessible. And I ended up studying with Gregor, and I did his whole 200 hour thing, which is great. Totally recommend. It Amazing. To this day, he is still my pranayama teacher, so I follow his system, his systems outlined in his book The breath of yoga. It's a very good system. It's very well researched, and he learned a lot of it from BNS Iyengar, and then a lot of it is just his own study. And I've been practicing it now for five years, and I've had very good results with it. So when it comes to Gregor, I'm very much regarding as my pranayama teacher. And that's mostly where he sits in my life.

Todd McLaughlin: 40:45

Very cool. His book is incredible. I I'm about halfway through it, but I'm like you said. I'm blown I'm blown away by the research that he's put into it and and his sincerity of practice comes through when I read the book. It seems like, wow, this guy really is taking this

Unknown: 41:00

incredible on the podcast?

Todd McLaughlin: 41:02

Oh, that'd be amazing. I'll reach out to him. I'll reach out to him and mention you. And then I recently got a chance to interview Simon Borg Olivier. And then right after I saw that you were in Australia, I believe you're in it. Maybe you weren't in Australia. I don't know, actually know where you were, but you got a chance to practice with them and and I was so excited to see that you got to meet him. Can you tell me a little bit about what your experience practicing with him was like.

Unknown: 41:25

I just, I just visited him for a couple of hours at his house in Australia, because cool. I didn't really practice with him, but what I wanted to do specifically was, was learn his technique of doing Mahamudra. Because I have done courses. I learned different type, different ways to do Mahamudra. I learned from Robert Moses, who was on your podcast just recently, yeah, Isn't he amazing? I love Rob. He's so nice. Yeah, nice. He's like the yoga Santa Claus, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind.

Todd McLaughlin: 41:57

He is such a sweet, kind person. That's cool. That's cool.

Unknown: 42:01

Yeah? So I learned it from him, and I also learned it from Shandor remedy, the shadow yoga guy, and also Gregor, but Simon was doing it in a slightly different way that involved the tongue mudra and I wanted to and I was copying his videos. But I always think it's it's so great if you can learn in person from someone, just because of the vibes. And I think in traditional India, they might call it even Shaktipat, although I don't know if that term is appropriate, but there's something that's transferred when you're with a person. So that's why I did, at the time, drive like it was a four hour round trip just just to see him for a couple of hours. And I just wanted to learn that one specific one specific technique. And, yeah, it's quite it's not too dissimilar to what like Shandor and Robert Moses teach, but he does some fun stuff with the tongue, which I enjoy. So cool. Yeah, I'm happy with it.

Todd McLaughlin: 42:55

Nice, nice. And what, how does your wife relate with you in relation to your passion and pursuit of meditation and yoga? Is she journeying along with you in terms of practice, or more? Are you guys that she she you guys? How do you relate on that level?

Unknown: 43:17

I mean, I'm really fortunate to be with my wife because she's has been so supportive, and I wasn't always earning money, and she was supporting me while I was doing quite a lot of practice, really, and the amount of time I've just been like, Okay, I'm going to go on. I'll be in India for two weeks. I'll also be on silent retreats, so you won't hear from me, but good luck with the kids. No, it wasn't, isn't I've known, I think I've ever gone away for two weeks since we had kids, but definitely 10 days I've done and she's she's been looking after the kids at home, and so she's so supportive. So I definitely owe a lot to her, and in terms of her practice, I don't really want to speak, to speak for her in terms of practice, but I will say that when we got married, we had a Buddhist ceremony, and as part of our vows, we took the Buddhist Five Precepts together. So the five precepts are like, no killing, no stealing, no sexual misconduct, no lying, no taking intoxicants. And that has been like the basis for our marriage, and we both take, you know, so we both practice along those lines, at least in our lifestyle. Nice.

Todd McLaughlin: 44:27

Nathan, that's so cool to hear. You know, it's funny because when the last time I had a chance to go sit a 10 day retreat was while my wife was pregnant with our daughter, so she's now, she'll be 13 soon, and so, like, after she came around. Now, anytime I'm like, Hey, Tamara, you know, I think I would really like to go away for, you know, that ends up being 12 days by the time you, you know, you travel one day. And she's like, and what leave me with the studio and the kids? Okay, fair enough. I will. I can wait. I can wait, right? I mean, that's kind of the journey with the children is like, it's so incredible to be present with them, and it goes by so fast, like, the fact that my son is off in college. Now, I just didn't ever think that was going to ever happen. I mean, I knew it, but you just kind of get so into the things that you're doing, and it's so busy with the kids that, you know, you just kind of don't think they're ever not going to be there with you. So I, I guess I, I really appreciate where you guys are at that's cool. Your wife is so supportive, and I feel the same way I wouldn't want to. I'm just so grateful to have a strong partner. How do you approach that currently? Do you? Do you feel like that that's shifted a little bit for you? Please.

Unknown: 45:40

I left out. Something information. Tell me we live in Laos. Childcare is very affordable, so there's that. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Also, one thing that Gregor told me when I last spoke to him, which was just a couple of weeks ago, he said that he, when he can, he goes for a one day retreat every month. I can't believe, like, it's so obvious, but like, no one's ever mentioned that. Look, if I can, he just said, so he just goes away and takes one day and he practices 10 hours that day. And I'm like, wow, that's actually great, because in a year, then you've done 12 Days of, like, you know, really hardcore retreat work. I think that might be achievable for lots of people. So it's definitely something I'm going to try and do.

Todd McLaughlin: 46:25

Yeah, that's good advice. Nathan, I agree with you on that. Why does it have to be it's got to be all or nothing, right? Isn't that a funny approach? You know, I saw a post that you did recently in relation to practicing first, second, third series, and then you were relating that, you know what I I'm feeling a little bit overwhelmed, maybe a little physically exhausted. I'm going to put the advanced stuff on hold for a moment, maybe focus on a nice, you know, short, easy, gentle practice. Can you tell me a little bit about what your journey has been with your evolution of how understanding, how much you need to push and how much sometimes pushing almost becomes counterproductive.

Unknown: 47:12

Yeah, so Ashtanga. Wow. I mean, I love Ashtanga all, and I practiced six days a week in a pretty traditional way, although I never had like a, like a long term teacher, because I lived in Cambodia, there wasn't really a teacher there. Not even not in Laos, either. So I used to travel to Bali. I used to practice with Prem khalisi When I could. And, yeah, in Australia, I was lucky to study with Mark Todd me, who's kind of still guides my practice now and then also ash hope in Brisbane as well. But anyway, I didn't have much of a teacher, but I did have a little practice community, and I was really committed. I did the six days a week thing, and when I was early in my practice, I had my sights set on completing third series. I think maybe quite a few people have that. And after many years, like, I don't know, five years, six years, seven years, I sort of had done third series, and then and I, I was like, yeah, just, let's do fourth, you know, let's just do fourth series. And I started doing that. I guess I was, like, lucky, because, like, once I sorted out my hamstrings, I had the body that could do it, and also the motivation, and I changed my lifestyle around in order to make that happen. And I really enjoyed it. I got loads out of it. I really think that the pranic Kundalini model makes the most sense for me when in terms to describe what we're doing with Ashtanga. I think ultimately I understand Ashtanga best when I think of it as tapas. I think it really does like bake the body in that way to make it available and able to receive greater states of meditation. And obviously there's like, tons of people in Thailand and Laos who've never done any yoga in their lives, and have much better meditations than I do. But I think that it really helped me as a Westerner, coming from like, a very unhealthy background, to sort my body out, not only physically in a scientific way, but also practically, I had, like, a lot of crap that, like, emotional crap, like in second series was a big one for me. I used to just, like, lie in shavasana, and my whole body would just convulse and shake, and I would be, like, sobbing, but not crying or feeling sad, but just sobbing, all this trauma out of me, you know. And when something works that well, you sort of think, hey, like, I'm going to keep doing this. I'm just going to keep going. And my practice peaked last year because I wasn't working. I had a few months off. And Mark has fifth series. So he has got his own version of fifth series that he sort of cobbled together. I got a bit curious about fifth series. There's essentially a few teachers that have one. Matthew Sweeney is one. Mark is another. There is another one who has a fifth series, but I can't remember their name, and both Mark and Matthew are saying you're not allowed to share the sequence, so everyone suddenly gets all secretive about fifth series. I personally don't agree, but I have to respect my teacher, so I can't share the sequence, but I know why you have to be so secretive about it, personally. Anyway. So I was learning fifth series, right? And I was wasn't working, and I was having these two hour practices, and I was like, peaking, but, you know, I picked up some injuries along the way. I tore a meniscus a few years ago. That was just not getting that much better. I was getting, like, rotator cuff stuff. You know, I'm 41 now. So I was hitting 40, and I was, I just got bored of, like, ignoring injuries. And just, I was just like, Dude, I don't know how much longer I can just keep ignoring what my body's telling me. So I went to a physio, physio, you should go to the gym. So I started going to the gym, and I was like, Oh, wow. Lifting weights is awesome. This is like, giving me something Ashtanga has never given me like, I feel stronger and more stable, and this is great. And since then, I've sort of been kind of trying to figure out, Where does Ashtanga sit? And then just recently, I thought it was, I went back to krishnamacharya's work. You always got to go back to krishnamacharya's work. You know, like, if you're ever in doubt, go back and read some of that stuff, yoga Rahasya is a good one. And I was looking through that, and he says, you know, when you're in the householder stage of life, your asana practice shouldn't be about expanding, it should be about maintaining, and you should be focused on pranayama and mudra and like, I was like, yes at that point, like, there was just a big yes for me. I was like, that's where I want to be, I don't want to be, you know, making all kinds of life sacrifices. So I can do fifth series when it's not even that good for me, when I could be doing a lot more pranayama, a lot more mudra and a lot more meditation, which is actually where the juice is for me these days. So it's still a work in progress. I basically now the morning session, which is the one session I guarantee I can get every day that is entirely devoted to pranayama, mudra and meditation, now and now, Asana, unfortunately, my baby Asana, my lovely Asana, that has to just be relegated to the afternoon session, which may or may not happen, and I may have an hour, or I may have 90 minutes, or whatever, and I just have to do what I can. And it's a shame that I can't do everything, but I'm happy with the decision right now, and I'm still trying to figure out how I can keep up my advanced practice, but I don't know how I tell you, it's hard.

Todd McLaughlin: 52:33

Oh man, Nathan, I hear you. Great answer. Oh my gosh. You know, wow. Great insights. I couldn't agree more, I've gone through a similar trajectory. You're about the same age, right? I'm 10 years older. I'm a little 52 now. And, yeah, yeah, my body just started to say, what are you doing with with severe, severe pain, you know, and so now I'm managing and not in severe pain, but because I'm honoring and I just wasn't listening, you know, it was just so right in front of me. It was just in front of me, in the sense, in me, like I was feeling pain. But I just had this thought that I had to just somehow keep going, and I pushed myself into into a place where it became so painful, I had no choice but to listen. So I'm so grateful, so thankful for it now, but in the time being, it was my whole world felt like it was crumbling, you know, like just earthquake type of experience, you know, so, oh man, these little journeys that we go through with. All this is just so fascinating. I really love hearing for me, it's so inspirational to hear your story, because I a I'm not alone. Other people are going through it. So I love hearing that. I'm incredibly inspired how you've been able to kick a very difficult drug that a lot of people aren't able to come back from. The stats on the people that are able to kick it and stay sober and and prosper in life is not very you know, not. It does not easy. So the fact that you were able to do that and and your growth that you're going through. I just love hearing about all this. Thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciate it.

Unknown: 54:31

Yeah, thank you for asking. You know, it's nice to think that it wasn't all just like in my head.

Todd McLaughlin: 54:41

Well, you know what? How? I know we have a few more minutes here, if you don't mind, I just have one more question. I'm curious in your journey through the meditation world, and I feel like, for you know, with Vipassana, there's this very pay attention to sensation and stay in your body, like, stay in your body, and maybe I got that wrong. So you can correct me if I maybe I misinterpreted some of that instruction. But like, and then in the world of, like, astral travel, this concept of Akashic Record and or merging in with the larger consciousness system and tapping into the ability to travel. And then, if we look at like, non dual Shaiva Tantra, and some of the I recently read Dr Roberts for both his book, The Left Hand path,

Unknown: 55:35

one that he has, I've got the second one

Todd McLaughlin: 55:38

of those, just like, wow, blew my mind. I'm like, Whoa. That's a lot. Stuff going on there. So I'm curious, when you meditate, have you allowed yourself to investigate that world of travel through the, you know, astral world, or do you do you feel like that's just a bunch of mental whirlpools that that really take you away from a goal of save a pasta and style. Just stay here. Stay right here. Don't, don't, don't travel out there any thoughts,

Unknown: 56:12

oh, man, like you saved the best stuff till last, man,

Todd McLaughlin: 56:16

dude, I know how much time do we have? Him, like 53 minutes and 20 seconds. I mean, I try to keep our episodes to an episode to an hour, so I don't scare people when they see the timestamp, you know, and go, Oh no, the two hour journey. I don't know if I can do it, so, yeah, I guess just if you could briefly touch on it, I'm so curious to hear where you're at.

Unknown: 56:36

So, you know, I've never done astral traveling or lucid dreaming. Really. I've never been talented at that, and I've never really had the time to learn. But my teacher now, so I don't still practice in Vipassana for the last four years. Is it like maybe four or five years I've been practicing in the Thai Forest Tradition under Ajahn achelo, who's an Australian monk, lives in Thailand, and the Thai Forest Tradition is mostly associated with Ajahn Chah and Ajahn sumedho. Maybe those names are familiar to someone in your audience, but there's a lot of room for variety in that tradition. And Ajahn ashloe has been a great teacher for me because he's very into faith based practices, and he talks a lot about magic powers. He talks a lot about meeting spirits and ghosts and these kind of things. I think these are things that happened to him and his teacher and other monks in his community. I was lucky. It happened to me once, and that was fun. And it he also affirmed my practice of magic because I was feeling a bit gloomy or guilty about practicing magic for stuff that I wanted, you know, like, if, if there was, like, a special, if someone had a health problem, like we had some tests coming up. You know, I would do magic for, like, perfect health, for example, maybe even, like, getting a job when I didn't have a job, and I was sort of worried about that, because it's just like, oh, this is a bit materialistic, right? And in Ajahn said to me, he was just like, No man, there's nothing wrong with that. Just make sure you make lots of merit after because if you're using magic to get results. You're pulling forward because in in Buddhism, it's similar to Hinduism, they have this concept of merit or good karma. It's there at your storehouse, you're sort of pulling pulling forward from your accumulated good karma to create good effects in your life right now. So make sure you go and make lots of other good karma and merit to to boost your supplies, if you like. I thought that was quite good advice.

Todd McLaughlin: 58:43

That's cool. That's a really interesting way to look at it. Pulling from, if you, if you're trying to manifest something, something in the present, you're actually pulling from your future potential good karma. Yeah.

Unknown: 58:58

So that's interesting to go. Go and make a lot of merit. Go and do good things. Donate to your local Buddhist organizations.

Todd McLaughlin: 59:07

Oh, man, that's cool. Good insight. All right, then I have time for one last question. What would you like to leave us with? Do you have any final words of, I don't know anything. Any other thing that you feel like I want to share this.

Unknown: 59:28

Well, I think Ashtanga, right? The Ashtanga community, it's in such a vulnerable place right now after Sharat died, and it's such a interesting place now that the community, or Ashtanga as a school, it was so centered around the Joyce family and what was going on in Mysore like I never studied with Sharat, so I'm not was never really part of it. I've always been observing from the outside, but as someone who continues to be an outside observer, I think to have the center, not there anymore, really, and then also the way I loved your episode with satu Joyce, because I think she embodies what Ashtanga really is about nowadays.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:00:09

Is about Yes, yeah, yeah. Didn't she have an incredible, like, humble, and I feel like she's has a very bright future, and not because so many people are going to flock to her, but more because she's grounded and not wanting that. I don't know. I just got a really nice vibe from her too. That's cool that you say that. Thank you.

Unknown: 1:00:32

Yeah, because she sort of, like, has this attitude of making it, you know, accessible. And there's a lot of stuff has been done about accessibility. In Ashtanga. And a lot of people have left Ashtanga. You know, Eddie Stern's a good example of someone who just put his hand up and say, Guys, I've had back pain for years. I'm not doing this anymore. And and I, and we're sort of in that category now. And I think it's just a funny place. And, but I think it's actually positive. I think the myself thing had run its course. I think people were forcing it. I think the gossip was ridiculous and childish. And I think we're in a good place to, like, grow up and find out what Ashtanga is really good for in the modern world, you know. So I'm keen and keen for the future and and I'll be there, you know, even if I'm just doing half primary when I'm 70, I'll still be there somewhere.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:01:22

Yeah, come and say hi, yeah. Oh man. Nathan, thank you so much. This has been an honor and a pleasure. I really enjoyed this. I can't thank you enough for taking time out of your evening. I know it's a it's late in your day there. So thank you for mustering up some good energy for us here. And I look forward to sharing this episode, and I really appreciate everything that you shared. Thank you so much. Thanks.

Unknown: 1:01:49

Thanks so much. Todd, this is this has been a privilege and a pleasure as well. So yeah, thank you so much.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:01:54

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for listening all the way to this point that takes commitment and this long form content style of podcasting is really what fires me up and gets me excited. I hope you enjoyed this hour, you know, hour ish long conversation that I had with Nathan Thompson. Remember to go visit him on his sub stack. For those of you that don't use sub stack yet, I highly recommend, recommend you signed up. It's a great blogging platform. His site is escaping samsara.substack.com, we're also on there. Native yoga.substack.com and you can follow him on his Instagram at E, S, C, S, A, M, S, A, R, A, so short for escaping samsara. Check out his podcast. Send him some love. Let him know what you think we I hope you enjoyed this episode. All right, every Friday, I got a new one for you so see you next Friday. Thank you. Native yoga Todd cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you like this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve, and if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com, and hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it and review and join us next time you.

Unknown: 1:03:50

Well, you know, you.