Jessica Rigal: Uniting Trauma Care, Ashtanga Yoga & Meditation

Jessica Rigal is a seasoned clinical social worker with over 20 years of experience specializing in trauma care, particularly in hospitals. Raised amidst a milieu of activism and scientific inquiry in New York City during the 60s and 70s, Jessica was introduced to meditation early on, a practice that has become central to her professional and personal life. She studied pre-med and journalism and holds an advanced degree from the New School of Social Research. Jessica is an advocate of blending meditation with Ashtanga yoga, and she actively practices and teaches these methods, emphasizing their therapeutic benefits.

Visit Jessica here: https://yogabyjessica.com/

Key Takeaways:

• Jessica Rigal’s life reflects a unique blend of activism, scientific curiosity, and holistic healing practices.
• Meditation and yoga are central to Jessica's approach, offering profound tools for recovery and personal growth.
• Listening to the body and maintaining a mindfulness practice can be crucial in overcoming physical limitations and improving mental health.
• Jessica emphasizes a flexible approach to both yoga and life, focusing on finding joy in the present and accepting each moment as it comes.
• The idea of practice as a reflection of daily life, rather than a set series of poses, invites listeners to integrate mindfulness into every aspect of their being.

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Transcript

Todd McLaughlin: 0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage, body work, and beyond. Follow us at @nativeyoga, and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com All right, let's begin.

Unknown: 1:05

Hello. Hello,

Todd McLaughlin: 1:05

welcome to Native Yoga Todd Cast. My name is Todd McLaughlin. Thank you so much for joining here. My special guest is Jessica Rigal. I had the pleasure of meeting Jessica when she came to practice in an ashtanga workshop with Tim Feldmann here at our studio in Juno Beach, and and then we've just been following each other on Instagram and having a lot of fun going back and forth with sharing ideas, and so that's how the catalyst evolved for me to invite her to come onto the show, and here she shares some of her passion insights about growing up in New York City back in the 60s and 70s, getting exposed to meditation at a very young age, taking up a stronger yoga later on in life, her professional life, working as a counselor, and a few other ideas. I hope that you enjoy. Remember, if you, if you like this episode, share it with a friend, go on our social media stuff, hit a like and a subscribe, and all that good stuff. We really appreciate it. Write us an email, we'd love to hear from you, and do the same to Jessica. And we're just so glad that you're here to celebrate yoga with us. All right, let's begin. I'm really excited to have this opportunity to sit and speak with Jessica Rigal, and Jessica, I have had the pleasure of meeting you in person before, because you've practiced Ashtanga yoga here with us at Native Yoga Center, but I feel like this is my first chance to really get to know you and have a longer conversation. To get started, can you tell me, like, how your day has been so far?

Jessica Rigal: 2:45

Well, it's been joyous, and I feel even more connected that I don't often get a chance to sit down and talk about my passion. So, thank you for the opportunity, and we've had the opportunity, like you said, to meet, but we really haven't had a chance to chat.

Todd McLaughlin: 3:02

I agree, and I enjoy everything that you offer on Instagram, and your handles, your name at Jessica Rigal. Can you share a little bit about your history with yoga? From what I understand, you do have a varied background, and/or quite a bit of background in the world of meditation. Can you talk a little bit about where you were in your life when you came across this concept of meditation, and what your first experience with meditation was?

Unknown: 3:35

Yeah, yeah, well, there wasn't like a single moment in time growing up in the 60s and 70s in New York City, there was always this social consciousness. I mean, I think it's.. it definitely started in my home, you know, Cesar Chavez, the Black Panthers, Gloria Steinem, you know, presidential candidates. that wasn't some ideal in my life, they were actually in my living room. My mother was in New York intellectual socialite, and you know it was. It really started there, so I had that activism. And then my father, more on the quiet side, was a pharmacist, interested and curious about mental health and non-pharmacological interventions, so that's where I'd say the social consciousness, the awakening, and then the meditation, because I was his little test dummy, I was like nine years old, quite frankly, I was nine years old, and guess who got to do the informal studies, me,

Todd McLaughlin: 4:42

you were your dad's guinea pig in relation. Understanding non-pharmacological ways to help mental health, is that? Am I getting

Unknown: 4:52

correct? Actually, he was contracted with, like, Bellevue and Pilgrim State. They were specifically looking to. Help people suffering from schizophrenia at the time, so meditation was really in the forefront, and so every night he would have me meditate, and I just was so excited to be having daddy's attention, you know, so that's where it kind of started, and then it went into my teens, of course. You know, 60s, 70s, up in Woodstock, the Zen meditation monasteries. What was it? It was Mount Tremper, Mount Tremper. So I would do like weekend and week long retreats there. Amazing,

Todd McLaughlin: 5:41

amazing. Well, at nine years old, I'm, I'm wondering if this is in the 1960s that your dad was kind of saying, Jessica, let me try, have you try this particular practice. What I know, that TM was quite big in the 60s, what was the what sort of meditation background had your dad come in contact with in that time period in American history,

Unknown: 6:06

you know. It's so interesting because I don't think it wasn't TM, we like didn't really label it. I'm thinking it was the Shikantaza, like just sitting, like just returning, if Jessica, if you feel something, try not to move, just return. There wasn't really an anchor mantra or a breath, it was just sitting, and I feel like that term comes full circle, right in yoga now. So, I don't know, really, what type of meditation, Vipassana would we say, Vipassana,

Todd McLaughlin: 6:47

cool, amazing. You know, I saw that you posted on Instagram the other day, you had taken a video of a manatee, and if I remember correctly, you were pointing to this, I think you were just kind of the manatee wasn't really swimming anywhere, and you called it a manatee meditation. I was like, is she recognizing that maybe the manatee is in a state of meditation, or is she in a state of meditation watching the manatee? Can you help me clarify what was going or is going through your mind in relation to your watching nature and how that inspires your ability to just be present.

Unknown: 7:25

Yeah, definitely. That, that now we know, you know, modern neuroscience has just caught up that all that sense of awe brings us back into the moment. So it's just about the moment, and you know, metaphysically speaking, you know, who knows, you know, maybe there was something there with I, you know, with the manatee, is definitely being in the moment with whatever is, and acknowledging that nothing needs to happen, you know, it doesn't have to become anything, it's just perfect in the moment, you know. And we're so blessed here. I live in Florida, and we're so blessed with dolphins and manatees and all kinds of bird species to help us. And I recommend, I recommend to my patients often, or to students when they say they can't get out of their head, you know, and you hear that a lot, right? Go take a walk in nature.

Todd McLaughlin: 8:28

Yeah, great point. Have you come across that app called the Merlin app, where, while you're walking outdoors, if you open it up and you and you turn on the microphone, whatever bird is in the area, it'll pick it up and tell you exactly what bird is singing the song.

Unknown: 8:46

Oh no, but I know that's available. That sounds lovely. I'll make note of that. It

Todd McLaughlin: 8:51

is really cool. I've been doing it in the morning, and like right when I came out my front door this morning to walk the dog, I heard a bird. I'm like, okay, now's my chance, and it was a cardinal, and I could have never have told you what actual bird is singing, you know what I mean. So I'm having so much fun in the morning now, turning my dog walk exercise into, like, I'm trying to memorize the bird sounds. It's really, I agree with you, we're very lucky,

Unknown: 9:17

and that's meditation. And then it brings you, it opens you up to that spaciousness of okay, and now what you know, and oh, I look up and there he is, right, there's the cardinal, right, and that's another new moment.

Todd McLaughlin: 9:34

Yes,

Unknown: 9:34

right,

Todd McLaughlin: 9:35

yes. Can you talk a little bit about what your professional life is in relation to you saying, when I work with my clients, what, what do you do professionally?

Unknown: 9:47

So, after you know, the meditation, I was always interested in medicine, obviously. You know, my father was a pharmacist, and I studied pre-med and journalism, so I. After college, I went into medical publishing. I did my advanced degree at the New School of Social Research. That was an interesting time in the city, wellness and body mind. Again, Herbert Benson was a big mentor of mine, a Harvard cardiologist who wrote the relaxation response. Are you familiar with the relaxation response.

Todd McLaughlin: 10:21

I'm not. Can you explain

Unknown: 10:23

it? Yeah, it's a book, The Relaxation Response, and it's really a mover and a shaker to the mind-body mindfulness industry. He was a cardiologist, so he was more interested in physiology. Today it seems more like psycho neurology, you know, but it was more about relaxing your heart rate, relaxing your respiration rate, lowering your own, that you have control of your own systems, right? Of course, now we call it vagal nerve, you know, response, and but he's in the forefront. I do recommend that you read his book. It's, it's amazing.

Todd McLaughlin: 11:05

That's a, you said Benson, and the title again is

Unknown: 11:08

The Relaxation Response.

Todd McLaughlin: 11:10

Thank you. All right, Tom.

Unknown: 11:12

And so I was always interested in that wellness industry, worked in medical publishing for most of my life, did my degree, and then 911 happened, and I live in the city. I was also an EMT, emergency medical technician in the city, trained by the fire department. And

Todd McLaughlin: 11:35

were you doing that, 911

Unknown: 11:38

Yeah,

Todd McLaughlin: 11:39

wow.

Unknown: 11:39

And that just kind of, that just kind of changed everything for me, so I went back for my second master's, and I became a therapist, because I decided, you know, I don't want to sit behind a desk anymore and do the medical editing, the publishing piece, which I love, but I want to work with people, so I became a clinical social worker.

Todd McLaughlin: 12:02

Got it. Amazing.

Unknown: 12:03

In hospital, in hospital,

Todd McLaughlin: 12:07

in hospital, meaning you're working in the hospital.

Unknown: 12:10

Yes, I work in the hospital for the last, you know, over 20 years. So in trauma, in trauma, mostly in NICU.

Todd McLaughlin: 12:20

Got it, got it. Well, how long then do you get to work with a particular client? Is it like if they're admitted into the hospital, you might only be able to talk with them over like one or two or three sessions while they're admitted, or is it something that you maintain an ongoing relationship with them post their hospitalization?

Unknown: 12:42

Yeah, that's a great question, Todd. Thank you. Because you're right, that's what it seems like today. Of course, the economies of healthcare have changed, and length of stay has shortened. Yet in trauma, someone might have a spinal cord injury, or traumatic brain injury, or have a drug addicted baby, so baby is in the hospital for a long time, a pre me, a premature baby might be for months, right? My smallest baby was 490 grams, almost in the hospital a year.

Todd McLaughlin: 13:16

Wow,

Unknown: 13:17

so it depends. It depends. Nowadays, it, the turnaround is very fast, but you're right, it is now more solution-focused kind of discharge kind of stuff.

Todd McLaughlin: 13:28

Yeah, okay. Good

Unknown: 13:30

question.

Todd McLaughlin: 13:31

What are some of the big challenges you're facing currently working in the medical arena?

Unknown: 13:40

You know,

Todd McLaughlin: 13:41

are you allowed? Are you allowed to talk about that? I don't know. You're like, way to have a job when I say here.

Unknown: 13:48

No, you know why? Because I feel like I've always been the lone wolf, like there's one of me, right? Like, you have to call psychiatry, you know, it's like call psych, and so it really, this adversarial role never really existed for me. I was always still doing my breath work, my childbirth education, my meditation with patients, hypnosis for pain, you know. So my role, obviously, if you're giving me 63 patients, I'm not going to see them all.

Todd McLaughlin: 14:21

Yeah,

Unknown: 14:22

you know, that's that's where it becomes a problem. You know, it's just they know that I'm Jessica's gonna, you know, I look like I love Lucy. You know that, where she's trying to eat on the conveyor belt. They know that if a traditional nurse case managers might see 30 patients. I'm not going to,

Todd McLaughlin: 14:44

yeah,

Unknown: 14:44

I'll do my best, but I can't.

Todd McLaughlin: 14:46

Got it, got it. That makes sense. What's one of the most challenging situations you, you've come across working your profession with with a situation that you came across in the hospital? Without naming any names and harming anyone's identity, I'm just curious, what,

Unknown: 15:06

what

Todd McLaughlin: 15:06

type of challenges are you up against? I'm just so curious, what your, what, what, what you would see in that setting.

Unknown: 15:14

Yeah, that you know, there are many challenges, you know, moving from New York to Florida, initially there were challenges in the culture. The cultural competency of the staff was not trauma-informed. There was, in the population, there was still noticeable, like, very interesting. What I call post-slavery syndrome here in Florida. Definitely, that was a challenge, you know, some prejudice, and all the isms, all the isms, you know. I mean, it existed in New York, but that was definitely a challenge here when I first moved to Florida. Yeah,

Todd McLaughlin: 16:08

understood. Well, I'm glad that our Florida system has a someone like you that cares so much. Obviously, you have to really care about the people that you work with. What, what is your, what do you think when you look at your community? What, what are ways that you find that you can extend greater levels of care to help improve our, our community?

Unknown: 16:32

Yeah, you know, you meet people where they, where they're at, because perhaps they didn't grow up with 153 different languages spoken on their block, as I did. You know, perhaps they've never met someone from Ethiopia, or they've never met someone from Yemen, or they don't understand child trafficking from there, those areas, Iran, or someplace. You know, so you just meet people where they're at, and there's a lot more education, a lot more education regarding trauma-informed care and cultural competency. So, you educate, and you just meet people where they're at, because I think in general people want to do the right thing, they just may not know, and what is it in yoga, right? We say the word ignorance, but yet then when we use that term outside, it's people find it offensive, but it isn't. It isn't offensive, you know. It just is. Maybe you were, you were ignoring certain other aspects of life, you know, because I have a fabulous relationship with all the staff, and they're very intelligent, and I love my work here, and you know, in hospitals here.

Todd McLaughlin: 17:48

Nice. You practice Ashtanga yoga. You had relayed a story to me in the past practicing with Manju. Can you share any stories that that you remember in your time practicing with Manju Joyce that helped inspire you to want to continue to practice Ashtanga yoga.

Unknown: 18:13

Yeah. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for that. Yeah, because that speaks to my heart, because I've had all this background in meditation and in, you know, psychology. I was not a yogi, per se. I never had an asana practice, Todd. So I came to.. I don't know if you know Margarita.

Todd McLaughlin: 18:38

I do know Margarita. She used to come here quite a bit when she first had one yoga planet, when she opened up up there, and, and one of my.. I know we're supposed to live a life of no regrets, but one of my regrets is that I never practiced with Manju when she hosted him at her studio there. There were so many times she would come here and say,'Hey, Todd, Manju is going to be at my studio, and for whatever reason it just didn't happen, but I do know Margarita.

Unknown: 19:04

Yeah, so I, it's right here in town. So I just went over to her, and I said, 'Hi, you know, my name is Jessica. Would you like to start a meditation program? She said,'No, but would you like to take the teacher training? Like,

Todd McLaughlin: 19:18

that sounds like classic Margarita.

Unknown: 19:22

I'm 55 five years old. I mean, I can't touch my toes, you know. When I do meditation, by the way, I sit on a bench, a meditation bench all my life. It was a bench. Well, that's okay. You can, you can still take the training. I said, all right. So I took the training, and within like a month, I don't know if I shared that story, within like a month, Manju came, and I meet Manju, and well, first off, she asked me, as part of a trainee, can you get the studio ready? I don't know what I'm doing, can you put on music, so. When Manju walks in, he's like, what kind of music

Todd McLaughlin: 20:03

is

Unknown: 20:05

this? Because I didn't know, I think I had Satnam Car on or something. So classic, I so I start my practice, and Manju comes by, and he says, Okay, you drop back now, drop back. Oh no, you don't understand. I'm new. I don't, I don't do that. Okay, go. Just do go. And actually, I did drop back, Todd.

Todd McLaughlin: 20:36

Nice.

Unknown: 20:38

You know, I'm pretty tall, and I'm like five seven, and when he brought me up, my eyes met his eyes, and it had just cracked me wide open. It just cracked me wide open, and I, you know, I, I had never in a million years imagined that I can do that, and I didn't realize that there was still so much from my son. I didn't mention my son was in trauma, a big accident, a motorcycle accident, 911 just everything. Like we're human beings, we all store trauma in the body, right? I just hadn't realized how important the asana practice was until I met Manju, and so to answer your question more specifically, had I met another teacher, I don't believe that I would still be practicing, because he made it so joyous, made it so accessible, it wasn't like, okay, do this, turn your foot this way, don't do that, do this. He didn't care. You want it. Oh, my right knee was all jacked up, I couldn't sit on the floor. I mean, I was, I was a typical maybe 5556 year old who had never done any exercise. I grew up in New York City, concrete jungle, intellectual. I wasn't with you guys boating here in Florida.

Todd McLaughlin: 22:06

Oh my gosh, yes, I get it, I get it. I, it is pretty exciting, isn't it? Though, when you face and confront fear like that and do something that you never thought you could possibly do, and you have the loving guidance of an instructor to kind of press you a little bit, and then to kind of come back up and go, oh my gosh, all in that moment, so much emotion hits, isn't that, that is a spectacular moment in practice history.

Unknown: 22:32

Yeah, yeah, the truth, right, truth, that, that I was living here, right? Yeah, I was living in my head, you know.

Todd McLaughlin: 22:47

Yes. Well,

Unknown: 22:49

even with all the meditation, even with, you know, so even, even though I can sit down and drop in, whatever that means, you know, just drop in quickly. There was still quite a lot of cleaning out, you know, the Hatha yoga, and I think that's what he introduced me to, not really the Vinyasa, because I was never a Vinyasa girl, I didn't have the wind, and just the asana was so difficult for me, and still is, that and just, just breathe like this, he would go for me, so I would just sit there and do that, and little did I know I was really opening up my rib cage, opening up my pranayama, opening up my lungs, you know, that was enough for me, and he saw that,

Todd McLaughlin: 23:38

yeah, incredible. When's your next plan to practice with Manju?

Unknown: 23:45

June, June, yeah. Will you fly

Todd McLaughlin: 23:47

to Encinitas?

Unknown: 23:49

I'll fly to Encinitas. Yeah, but I do practice with his wonderful, amazing, and if you haven't met him, I would highly recommend you talk to Greg Tebb. I practice with Greg Tebb every day online, Mysore

Todd McLaughlin: 24:06

cool. I appreciate the lead. I will reach out to them, T E B B,

Unknown: 24:11

correct. mr. Teb has been a student of Manjus for over 30 years, and his father, and they've written many books together, Manju and him the definitive book on Ashtanga yoga, so he's my day-to-day teacher, Greg Tebb.

Todd McLaughlin: 24:27

Very cool. Well, thank you for telling me about that. How are you making amends with blending Ashtanga yoga and Zen meditation? Not that it needs to be like amend making or something that's so like monumental, but are you? Because obviously you love both, have passion for both, feel the benefit of both. Do you see them as exactly one in the same? Do you feel like we need to honor each as its own specific tradition? Are you blending the two together? Are there any people. Saying no, no, no. In the Zen world, you should not be blending it with yoga and other people that you're finding in the Strangle world, saying that Zen doesn't fit in. How do we put these two side by side to make sense of it all and utilize it in a real way?

Unknown: 25:13

Oh my God, I'm falling in love with you. Such great questions, because you know that's the meat of it, like everything is division, right? Don't you see that in the asana, like, and with all due respect, when our, you know, Shirachi died, you know, should we keep our hands like this? Should we do this? You know, should we do that? Should we do this, right?

Todd McLaughlin: 25:39

Yes.

Unknown: 25:40

No, no, no, the jazz, right, my friend, the jazz, the spaciousness, the yoga, the zen, the yoga is yoga meditation, meditation, you know, hatha vinyasa, yes, we can take a scholarly lens, you know, just like the cardiologist may say to the neurologist and the pulmonologist, but we have a patient in front of us, they're not a system, right?

Todd McLaughlin: 26:10

Yes,

Unknown: 26:12

and so everything needs to be integrated, and that's the Viveka Kiati, that's what I've discovered, right, this triangulation of a lived experience of the yoga, right, of the and then the awareness of a vehicle, right, that's that's the discrimination.

Todd McLaughlin: 26:33

Can you define vehicle chayati for

Unknown: 26:37

us? Yes, if for me, you know, the V, the V, like Vidag, yeah, you know, is a separation, yet it's, it's a wholeness together, a separation, yet wholeness, kind of like

Todd McLaughlin: 26:57

that makes sense. I see what you're

Unknown: 26:59

wisdom, right? It's, it's a certain level of wisdom that is lived, right?

Todd McLaughlin: 27:09

Yes,

Unknown: 27:10

that's lived like when we're sitting in the jazz club, right, that we're in that space, you know, between the notes,

Todd McLaughlin: 27:21

yes. Not knowing what's going to come next,

Unknown: 27:25

yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 27:26

Improvised, not not scripted,

Unknown: 27:30

exactly. No performance, right? No care what comes next. That meditation, you know, maybe he's gonna go away. The manatee, maybe we'll get to see his little nose, you know. No matter,

Todd McLaughlin: 28:29

yeah. Great point. Well, I enjoyed when I saw that manatee meditation, you know, and you, when I read what you had written below, or you know, below the picture, whatever, the video, in terms of sitting just to sit, you know, not having a goal, not having a need to.. I'm going to heal my trauma now. I'm going to sit, I'm going to meditate, and I'm going to heal and become a better person into this idea that we're gonna, I'm gonna do this meditation because it has a purpose and I have a goal, and I'm hoping that this will help me achieve my goal, and I feel like from the zen angle that you seem like you were presenting is no goal, yeah, no, you know, we're gonna meditate with zero goal in mind, which

Unknown: 29:25

is like Nirvija, near Vijay, right, Nirvija Samadhi, you know exactly objectivelessness, right,

Todd McLaughlin: 29:34

which seems hard to do, but can you explain why you feel that that can really cut into the matter in a way that just is so unique,

Unknown: 29:47

it's just the return, it's the return, it's that lived experience of the return, right, not waiting for something to happen, right, and I think that's what happens with the asana too, that people, they have a good intention. Okay, I'm aging. We can't write one thing, we can't escape. We can escape maybe prejudice. Don't live in certain areas. I'm going to live here because these are more my people, whatever. Or we might be able to escape sexism and other isms, but we can't escape ageism, right. So then you see these senior yogis, such as myself, you know. Oh, I can look, I can still do leg behind the head, I can still, you know. And yes, we're not, we're not hating on them. Good for you, that's great. We want, we want the body to. Keep cleaning, everybody's unique, yet you, you know, you wonder, you know, can you just, less is more, can you, and I think I learned this from Manju, that can you live in the Shunya, the emptiness that, that the asana becomes Raja, the Asana becomes Raja, right? One pose, maybe, maybe Viparita Karani, you know, James Mallison, you know James Mallison,

Todd McLaughlin: 31:20

I know the name,

Unknown: 31:22

he wrote the all the big Hatha yoga texts, you know. Now he's a scholar.

Todd McLaughlin: 31:28

Yes,

Unknown: 31:29

you know,

Todd McLaughlin: 31:30

have heard of him?

Unknown: 31:31

Yeah, and he talks about that too. You know that. What was I saying?

Todd McLaughlin: 31:38

What are we saying? Just kidding. What

Unknown: 31:41

am I saying?

Todd McLaughlin: 31:41

Where are we? I know.

Unknown: 31:43

Why am I saying

Todd McLaughlin: 31:44

what point are you trying to make? I think you were my main question. What my question is around, I guess, an investigation of these different takes on how do I meditate, and what is a meditation style that's going to suit me. And I guess I appreciate your emphasis on the zen of this concept of no goal, like I'm just sitting just to sit and be present and just feel what is feeling. So, I guess I think we're just kind of going around a little bit on that idea and trying to figure

Unknown: 32:20

it's just I get excited and

Todd McLaughlin: 32:23

it's good,

Unknown: 32:23

I think. The Hatha yoga.. my point with Hatha yoga was that James Mallison does talk about, you know, the body, and yet Manju says, you know, it can be one posture. Oh, I know, he talked about karma yoga, karma, karma yoga, and how the, how the yogis would stay in supported shoulder stand, you know, Viparita Karani, they would stay in it for like a week to burn off their karma, a

Todd McLaughlin: 32:57

week,

Unknown: 32:58

but not a week, but not only like what you just said, to be of service, you mentioned that just a moment ago, to be a, be a better person. I heard you say to be a better person. He

Todd McLaughlin: 33:08

said

Unknown: 33:09

that they did that to be a better person, to help the community even burn off the karma of the community. One posture

Todd McLaughlin: 33:19

is that our next workshop we offer, Jessica.

Unknown: 33:22

Yeah, yeah. A

Todd McLaughlin: 33:23

one week shalab, a one week Viparita Karani. I don't know. Have you tried the one hour one? Have you tried the one hour

Unknown: 33:34

one? Well, I stay in the asana for a long time.

Todd McLaughlin: 33:38

So you are, you are into investigating getting into something and holding

Unknown: 33:42

it, I do, because I do very few postures, and then I, you know, and so that's the meditation, that's the Ashtanga yoga, like Raja, you know, kind of thing.

Todd McLaughlin: 33:56

Can you explain then in your mind, in your own words, how could one do something like hold austerity, such as a pose, tapas, something for a period of time that's going to generate heat, and how could that benefit my community? I think I understand what you mean, but I just want to kind of parse that out a little bit in relation to maybe someone listening is thinking how could someone holding a shoulder stand in a room with nobody watching them have an effect on the local community, I believe in metaphysics, so used the word metaphysics earlier in relation to maybe when you in the manatee you were recognizing manatee, maybe manatee is feeling you, and maybe you both just sat there for a moment. We don't know, but it's fun to think about the potential. So, I guess we'd love to hear your take on how does one person practicing austerity in a yoga pose benefit the community when there's no knowledge of the community knowing that you're doing what you're doing.

Unknown: 35:04

Yeah, now we can get into our Jungian right.

Todd McLaughlin: 35:09

I can't wait to say

Unknown: 35:12

right, because obviously you know in the Shunya is the Ponya, right, is the virtue in the Shunya in the emptiness is the virtue, so once we clean out our energy, everything is clean, right? Aren't we helping the world by not doing harm?

Todd McLaughlin: 35:33

Yes, great point. Well, yeah, that's a fascinating aspect alone, in the sense that when you're holding a yoga pose, and if we. Look at Yama and Niyama, that okay, Ahimsa. I'm not harming anything by holding a yoga pose. I'm not consuming any sort of product via my senses at all. Satya, truthfulness. Well, I'm not speaking, so it's really easy to be truthful if we don't talk. Do you agree, Asteya? I'm not stealing anything. I mean, I'm breathing. Do you ever feel like by breathing you're stealing air from someone else? I don't, but I mean, I guess one could argue potentially there is Brahmacharya. We're not engaging any sort of sexual conduct, therefore we got ourselves good there. And then apatigraha, greed - we're not being greedy, we're not taking from anyone when we're holding a yoga pose. So, like, the nature of holding a pose in itself helps make it possible for us to get good at yama, and then we could go down the niyamas as well. Any, any me taught saying that, does that bring up any thoughts for you?

Unknown: 36:40

Yes, yes. Thank you for that. So beautifully said. Yes, you know what a great way to look at it, you know, to clean out that first, you know, limb, right? That first limb, because often people ask, you know, how do I translate the theory into practice? Well, you just said it, you know, that'd be a beautiful workshop, all

Todd McLaughlin: 37:06

right. So we're in shoulder stand, and now we're,

Unknown: 37:11

yeah, you know, I like the

Todd McLaughlin: 37:13

idea, Jessica. I mean, because

Unknown: 37:14

we get to pick,

Todd McLaughlin: 37:15

yeah,

Unknown: 37:16

right,

Todd McLaughlin: 37:19

cool. Well, I like the fact that we're able to collaborate or just brainstorm on some ideas here, because we do live near each other, so in theory we can actually put something together here, and then we have, and we have online too, so we can, you know, generate some. Okay, another question, a little off topic, but you brought up jazz. I posted a picture of Miles Davis, and I was reading The Critique of Pure Reason by Immanuel Kant, and you chimed in and said, "Oh man, now you're speaking my language. I saw Miles Davis live in New York, and I went, "No freaking way, you got to see Miles Davis live. I just can't even imagine to be in New York City and see.. I just think Miles is like so unbelievable. Can you share a little bit about, you know, like, when we experience something and we don't know it's going to be really cool later on, we're just doing it in the moment, and it's just like not a big deal. But, like, now looking back on it, does it feel like it was a big deal, or was it not really a big deal? Can you tell me a little bit about what your experience was like?

Unknown: 38:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I let's, let's go to some jazz. There's some good jazz around, right? Yeah, just.. it like it didn't.. it seemed like just what you.. it's Friday night, like you know, we're gonna smoke cigarettes, we're gonna drink, you know, Johnny Walker Black, and we're gonna go into that smoke-filled room, and just. that's it. It's like it was just no, it didn't feel like a big, I mean, it felt like a big deal when you were there, but it wasn't like, you know,

Todd McLaughlin: 38:52

yeah,

Unknown: 38:52

where I'm waiting in line for a ticket, it was so everything was so small and spontaneous, and you know, in the moment, and when I think about it, like, kind of life was like that, like, oh, what are we going to make, maybe because New York City has all the services right there, you know, has the jazz clubs, has everything at your fingertips, like, oh, what are we going to eat, like, I don't know, let's go, we walk, oh, look at this fresh fish on the on the street, you know, so, but it is kind of cool, isn't it? Todd, now when we think back on it,

Todd McLaughlin: 39:28

yeah,

Unknown: 39:30

I think now we don't even have the ticket stubs anymore, like everything's electronic, like, but yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 39:39

What do you miss that? Do you think we're missing something, are we just in the equivalency of the same thing, and it's all the same thing, or have we gone downhill, are we going uphill? I mean, what, where, what are you seeing?

Unknown: 39:53

Yeah, yeah, I'm seeing that. What were you and I are doing, you know, convo people matter less, you know more about you know the outside world and stuff, and accumulation, and the knowledge is isn't wisdom, isn't wisdom, you know, being here is, you know, in the moment, with whatever you bring, is what what matters. So, I definitely think we're losing our touch to what's available in the moment. Everything is so planned and calculated, you know. I'm fine in this world. Told,

Todd McLaughlin: 40:42

yeah,

Unknown: 40:43

so I even tell, I even tell you, know, my, my new mothers, who are, are suffering financially, or suffering emotionally, spiritually, mentally, you know, there's a way we live in this moment, this is a good moment, right?

Todd McLaughlin: 41:04

Yes,

Unknown: 41:04

yes or no. Yes or no?

Todd McLaughlin: 41:06

Yes, it is. That's

Unknown: 41:11

it. You know, it's like that. People say, I live in my head, so don't live in this moment. How do we live in this moment? Well, Pema children, you know, Pema children, the Buddhist. She's a nun.

Todd McLaughlin: 41:25

Books, I've never met her, but via her books. Yes,

Unknown: 41:27

yeah, she teaches three Rs, which I always teach my students and my patients. She says pause. Yeah, Pema, pause. And then she says reframe, so you pause, the thought comes in, you reframe, you relax, right? I don't know what that is. Should I turn this off?

Todd McLaughlin: 41:56

I don't know. Somehow you made this really cool thought bubble appear on the screen, and I'm like, how did she do that? That was magic. Did you do that on purpose, or did you, you put your finger up, and then there's like a little circle appeared, like a

Unknown: 42:09

yeah,

Todd McLaughlin: 42:14

okay.

Unknown: 42:21

So, yeah, that's that's what I often say, you know, just relax and reframe, and refrain is the pause, of course, so those are the 3r's refrain, refrain, reframe, and relax.

Todd McLaughlin: 42:38

Nice, it makes sense, right? Because we're reacting to everything so quickly, and so I know I heard a really good this goes, I think on same subject, kind of. I was listening to a business podcast, just because I'm always trying to get new ideas to stay fresh, and it said if you have a service and you charge for a specific service and someone then comes back to right away with like, well, that's cost too much, that instead of then devaluing ourselves and saying making excuses and kind of putting meaning on that, they said that to just pause and or ask in, well, in relation to what, like to ask another question, like that's expensive, but in relation to what, like, try to figure out what are they comparing you to, and you know, if you, if I believe truly in the value that I bring, you believe in the value you bring, then we could start to ask a question, but that pause there to not just take it on ourselves and feel that fire in our own body that comes up when we feel questioned or like we feel unworthy, and it just, I like what I like that you're bringing attention to it as well, right now, that it's okay to reframe, refrain, and pause for a moment, or rest. I think that was the other, the other R,

Unknown: 43:58

yeah, exactly, my friend, hallelujah, because that's how that's how the mother in Israel and the mother in Palestine will sit down at the table, because guess what, they both have the same needs, and my friend, so does your client, who said she can't afford it, she may not have the same feelings, but she has the same needs that you and I, so we can relate. We can relate, because if you're a spirit in the body living on this planet, and we got a chance to see the beautiful planet with Artemis, right?

Todd McLaughlin: 44:33

Yes, that was pretty cool.

Unknown: 44:35

That was super cool. So, if you're a planet, you know, a spirit in the body living on this planet, we have the same needs, and there aren't that many. There's like five, right? It's like five of them. So,

Todd McLaughlin: 44:48

what's the.. we can.. what's the top one out of the five? What do you classify as the top need?

Unknown: 44:53

Love and belonging.

Todd McLaughlin: 44:54

Yeah, good answer. That's what I was hoping you were gonna say. What was the thought that went through your mind when you saw the picture from behind the moon of a little bit of earth, you know, we're on the backside of the moon, we see the moon, and then way out there we see a little bit of earth. What was what was the thought that popped in your head?

Unknown: 45:17

On my inner child saw the loon man landing. I remember sitting with the tons of people in a little black and white TV watching the first step. My belief in humanity was my first thought. Yay for humanity!

Todd McLaughlin: 45:33

Yeah, yeah,

Unknown: 45:34

wow,

Todd McLaughlin: 45:38

that's awesome. I hear you. When I, when I saw. But I thought, are we even really down there? Like, is this even real? Like, are we, you know, I mean, because you look at so beautiful, and we're obviously so small, like we're such like little tiny little little somethings, and so, like, is this even real? I don't know. I just couldn't.. I don't know. I just saw it. I thought, what if we're not even really down on that planet, we're somewhere else, and they're just taking pictures. I'm joking, I'm joking, I'm joking, but it just.. it just really framed the perspective for me of how awesome the world is, and how, how big a part of play, and how small a part I play, or we play.

Unknown: 46:30

Yeah, well, you play a big part, my friend.

Todd McLaughlin: 46:33

You're being

Unknown: 46:34

studio owner, and you're a father, yes, and a studio owner, and a podcaster, and you make the world a better place, and that's, you know, that's huge,

Todd McLaughlin: 46:48

Jessica, that's really sweet of you. I guess when I say something like how small we are, and or how unimportant we are, I don't say that to diminish the value that we can bring to the table, but more to almost bring value to the table to almost like look at it from that angle of like we are so tiny, we are so insignificant, therefore, what are we going to do with the significance that we think we feel we have?

Unknown: 47:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 47:23

Thank you,

Unknown: 47:24

thank you. What,

Todd McLaughlin: 47:26

uh, what did.. uh, what has your practice day looked like so far? Have you decided not to get on a yoga mat? Have you sat on your bench, your zen bench? Are you.. I know you.. I get the feeling you're kind of in meditation right now, or I get the feeling that you, you, you're in that state of like, where you're just like letting each moment be kind of a part of it all. Doesn't have to be so formal, but if there was any formality, what did it look like today?

Unknown: 47:56

Yeah, you know, mr. Greg Teb is very good with anatomy, and whether I'm in medicine or not, I don't. I'm not in my head, you know. Really, he brings me back to go in there because I have my MRI, is pretty nasty looking.

Todd McLaughlin: 48:16

Can you tell me what you see when we look at

Unknown: 48:18

it? The MRI, you name

Todd McLaughlin: 48:20

it. All right, squashed discs in between your backbones.

Unknown: 48:25

Yes, go on.

Todd McLaughlin: 48:27

Do you have arthritis?

Unknown: 48:31

What else?

Todd McLaughlin: 48:33

Partial tears of the gluteus maximus, partial tears of something, hamstring, hamstring attachment

Unknown: 48:43

ruptured and herniated,

Todd McLaughlin: 48:45

yes, rupture and more rupture and herniations, multiple

Unknown: 48:48

different spondylosis,

Todd McLaughlin: 48:50

you do have some of that too, so your vertebra have slipped one way or the other. Okay, so what poses are, how much pain are you in?

Unknown: 49:00

Well, quite, I was in quite a bit of pain, yet you know Greg has taught me to go in there, you know, and clean it out, clean it out, not no forcing, you know, no forcing. So my practice is very mindful, very mindful, and just because you know, when I was able to do like Kordamasana and Bhujapidasana, but because of problems like let's say my right foot would have to cross first or my left, and Manju and Greg would always say, "Don't worry about it, just do it, just do what you can, and so my practice is a yo is Ashtanga yoga sequence, but I do a lot of skippasana, I do a lot of skippasana, a lot of what we were talking about staying longer, and I'm very careful now with lower back,

Todd McLaughlin: 50:03

I am with you, Jessica. So, are you having thoughts when you're walking around outside and your back is really aching? Are you, what, what type of ways are you mentally coping with it? Because pain is real, I mean, I think it is. It feels real when it's happening. Do you have, you know, are you struggling with the, the, the fear that comes with, oh my gosh, what's going to happen to me in 10 more years if I feel like this now? Are you being present and just feeling it? Are you, or do all the above? How are you strategizing your. Your pain management.

Unknown: 50:43

Yeah, thank you so much for asking that question. And not to, you know, I digress a lot. Please forgive me not to digress yet. I mentioned that I have a son who was in an accident, so he's a paraplegic. I didn't know that. Yes, he's a paraplegic, and so what comes to my mind often, if I come back into my mind and my body, is don't be a hypocrite. Don't be a hypocrite. If we say we're not mind body, then don't be mind body, right? You can't escape it, right? This too shall pass. And Greg has helped me, not by saying, "Oh, do this, do this, do this. How does this feel? And clinically, good doctors, clinically good doctors will do the same, Todd. That let's say, God forbid, you bring Mama in and Mama has Alzheimer's, and they say, "Oh, look at this functional MRI, she has Alzheimer's, and you're like, "Ma, how you doing? "Eh, I want to get out of here, I got to get to the casino, or whatever she says, right? You're like, "I don't care what that MRI says. Clinically, my mom's okay, right? So, not get caught up like you said about the earth, you know, like we're so small, not get caught up with labels, you know, and time and shape and form. So I really bring myself back to that, Todd, not to be a hypocrite, but just to live in

Todd McLaughlin: 52:24

beautiful, yes, yeah, that's that's awesome. I hear ya. It's

Unknown: 52:30

hard because you hear a lot of people like my knee, my knee, my knee, my shoulder, my shoulder, my back, my back. Well, hello. Every day is going to be another thing. Don't do so much asana, you know, live like like, like jazz, you know, a musical pranayama, you know, like just like just be in the in the pause in between the notes,

Todd McLaughlin: 52:55

yeah.

Unknown: 52:56

Don't let that get to you, don't don't allow that to define you. Does that make sense?

Todd McLaughlin: 53:02

Yeah, it does. I just, so glad you said it, because it's, it's so true. I feel like that's one of the harder things to convey to folks when they are wanting some sort of validation, myself included, with pain, you know, and therefore what you're bringing up, that it's real, it's going to continue. Let's just face it and be honest about it. I think that's really important. It's a little bit of an illusion to.. I don't know, it's an interesting world to kind of like, you're attempting to try to resolve pain, solve pain, fix pain. We're hoping the yoga is going to make all of our pain better, and in some ways it does. I wonder if it's more in the way that changes our perspective about it than it actually literally makes pain go away, because we just align the body in some magic way. So, I think we're both kind of saying the same thing, and I.. so I'm glad I'm talking with someone else who is kind of being real about

Unknown: 54:06

it. I love what you said, you know, align the body in a magical way. Yeah, exactly, exactly. You know, it's real. I'm not dismissing, yeah, you know, I'm not, because believe me, some of those sciatic issues, I'm like, you know, please give me something, you know, but it passes,

Todd McLaughlin: 54:35

yeah,

Unknown: 54:36

you know, and patience, patience, right? How many yoga, this is all, is this is all the same language, right? So it, what is practice? Then what is practice? You know, it's it's living, it's something we live, not something we do, right.

Todd McLaughlin: 54:55

Well, that's a great question, Jessica. What is practice? What are we even doing when we're practicing?

Unknown: 55:04

I

Todd McLaughlin: 55:04

don't know. I think that's the best answer. We gotta take the Socratic, the Socratic answer there. The only thing I know is I really don't know anything

Unknown: 55:15

exactly.

Todd McLaughlin: 55:15

That's the only thing I'm 100% sure of. I do not

Unknown: 55:19

exactly.. I

Todd McLaughlin: 55:20

don't know what I'm doing.

Unknown: 55:23

I'll live in that shoe, and yeah, I'll live in that spaciousness, you know?

Todd McLaughlin: 55:28

I mean, I really like going here in conversation. I know, like, some folks will sometimes coach me and say, Todd, you're doing a podcast to encourage people, so therefore, if you just keep talking about how pain. Just always probably be there and get used to it. That's not really helping people, but I don't think that's true. I think it is helpful to hear that we are all are suffering on some level, and that pain is real, and and it does pass, and every moment by moment it's a unique experience, and and just to kind of feel it and see it, but um, do you ever feel that too, or some someone might kind of pressure you, Jessica, to be a little more like, but I want the answer, I want you to tell me how I should feel or think, or how to fix this problem.

Unknown: 56:16

Totally toxic positivity around circle, you know, don't be Debbie Downer, like you walk into a party. How are you? You know,

Todd McLaughlin: 56:28

yeah,

Unknown: 56:29

I am who I am, like people like, whoa, that's

Todd McLaughlin: 56:32

weird.

Unknown: 56:34

Let me run to somebody who's more positive, right? You know, not to get too existential, but yeah,

Todd McLaughlin: 56:43

yeah,

Unknown: 56:43

totally, you're right, you know, of course it's part, and, and ultimately, right, Manju says that, you know, it's a dress rehearsal to death, you know, everything, every minute is a dress rehearsal. How are you going to feel that moment? Are you going to be friends with Lord Yama? You know, are you making friends with Lord Yama, you know, are you going to be clinging? No, what you're teaching, what you're doing by, by bringing it to the surface, is helping them, so in that moment of death, they're prepared, they're not clinging.

Todd McLaughlin: 57:21

Wow, good point. A dress rehearsal for death. Everything is a dress rehearsal for death. Well, that's a pretty powerful statement.

Unknown: 57:33

Yeah,

Todd McLaughlin: 57:33

don't you think?

Unknown: 57:34

Yeah, I have a screensaver that says I'm gonna

Todd McLaughlin: 57:40

die. Do you actually? You do. You do. You don't want to admit it. The one of the office did not want to admit it there for a second, but now you're like, I gotta own that

Unknown: 57:48

one.

Todd McLaughlin: 57:48

Well, I think that's yeah. Well, I mean, any, any of us that have sat in any sort of Buddhist meditation has contemplated our death, don't you think? I mean, is there any way you could enter into any Buddhist meditation circle or Buddhist-influenced meditation circle, and not try to have to be encouraged to be, make peace with, with our end.

Unknown: 58:12

Yeah, yeah. No, no,

Todd McLaughlin: 58:14

I know, I know, it's a tough pill to swallow sometimes, but it's like I think that's one of the best parts about Buddha teaching,

Unknown: 58:22

yeah, yeah, because you know, here we're this YOLO, you know, the Christian Judaic, you know, but you know this YOLO, you know, you only live once, right, right, so, of course, you know the whole idea, even though they're very different and unique, you know, very different, yet that idea of cyclical existence is there.

Todd McLaughlin: 58:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good point. Well, cool, Jessica. I'm so glad we had a chance to kind of.. I can't wait till I see you again in person. We'll have a good laugh and a good hug. Yes,

Unknown: 59:08

I have so many questions for you

Todd McLaughlin: 59:10

now. We have a little bit more to kind of build off of, so I'm really appreciative of you taking time out of your day. I know you're getting ready to travel and experience the world, and I believe be with your daughter.

Unknown: 59:24

Yes, yeah, I'm taking some time off. We're going to Mallorca just to enjoy, just.. we don't have a.. we don't have a plane ticket back.

Todd McLaughlin: 59:35

Wow, really? Bought a one-way ticket to Mallorca. Well, that opens the doorway. Are you going to sell your place before you go. Are you going to keep your

Unknown: 59:45

no, no, no.

Todd McLaughlin: 59:46

If you decide to stay, I'll help you sell it or something. I mean, we'll figure something out.

Unknown: 59:52

Exactly.

Todd McLaughlin: 59:53

Well, that's kind of cool. That's exciting.

Unknown: 59:55

Yeah, I'm excited. Nice,

Todd McLaughlin: 59:57

nice. Oh my gosh, everybody needs a little bit of exploration time. Well, I really do wish you a happy experience. I'll be watching you on Instagram to see what kind of adventures you come up with, see what kind of animals you meditate with, and yeah, and see you enjoy your family. It's, you're right, having the opportunity to be around families is pretty amazing. And I hope, I hope to meet your kids one day. Your son sounds incredible too.

Unknown: 1:00:25

Same, same with you. I'd like to meet your wife, and, and hear more about your long history in, in the, you know, yogic world.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:00:37

Well, thank you. We'll definitely do it. Well, once we get our Viparita Karan. A class going, we'll, we'll set the announcement and do part two.

Unknown: 1:00:46

Yes, let's do it. Sounds good,

Todd McLaughlin: 1:00:48

Jessica. Thank you so much.

Unknown: 1:00:49

Thank you,

Todd McLaughlin: 1:00:50

thank you.

Unknown: 1:00:51

Much love,

Todd McLaughlin: 1:00:52

much love.

Unknown: 1:00:54

Bye now.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:01:01

Native Yoga Todd Cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you like this show, let me know. If there's room for improvement, I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of, what I can improve, and if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native Yoga Center. You can find us at Native Yoga center.com And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it, and review, and join us next time.

Unknown: 1:01:53

Oh, yeah, now you.