Liam Magerr: Tavel Nursing, Surfing, Snowboarding, & Marathons | #27

Liam Magerr is a Traveling Nurse. Tom and Liam discuss his experience as a nurse and his lifestyle of constantly moving to new areas. Liam also really loves to snowboard and surf and he enjoys living in areas where he can do one of those activities. Liam also has completed 3 marathons including one 3 weeks before this episode was recorded. Tom and Liam discuss all of these different activities and why Liam chooses to live such an active lifestyle.

OUTLINE

0:00 Intro

4:00 Travel Nursing

31:16 Snowboarding vs Surfing

1:08:46 Marathon Running

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Transcript

Introduction

Tom 0:00

Hello everyone, my name is Tom Driver, and welcome to another episode of the Drive program. Before we get started, I just want to quickly mention that we now have a table of contents listed in the episode description. That'll have a timestamp and the name of a section so you can skip forward and listen to maybe just the sections that you're interested in. So that's a small update, and then I also just want to say I've been pretty happy with the quality of the podcast, um, the theme song, the the cover art, the quality of the editing and the conversations. So I really just want to encourage you guys to share an episode that you guys really relate to. I I think I have a system down, like I said, I got some awesome episodes on the way. And now one of the last things that I need to do is just spread the word and make sure everyone knows about it. So if you guys have any guests that you think that I would have a fun time talking to, I'm doing a lot of remote episodes these days, so I could talk to just basically anyone. And if you have any friends that you think would be interested in listening to the podcast, please do me a favor and just let them know. It really goes a long way to get a personal recommendation on something. So I really appreciate uh you guys for just being listeners, and I I would love it if you could help me spread the word and help me grow my audience. My guest today is Liam Mager, and he is a traveling nurse. So I actually met Liam at Frank's bachelor party and wedding, and me and him instantly uh hit it off. He's really, really active, and he is a traveling nurse, so he lives in different areas about every three months and provides nursing services there. So we talk about that for a while. We talk about just being a nurse, being a travel nurse, some of the cool places that he has gotten to go to. And then Liam also really likes to live in an area where he can snowboard or he can surf. So we talked about those two activities, and we just talked a lot about life in general. And then near the end, um Liam's actually run three different marathons, and he had run a marathon actually a couple weeks before this conversation. So we did a deep dive. I've never actually interviewed someone who's run a marathon, and I was very excited to finally get to talk to someone about that. So we talked about that for a long time. And yeah, man, it's just it was a great conversation. Liam's also pretty he was pretty funny at times too, man. This guy, he's hilarious. Yeah, I hope you guys really enjoyed the episode. And here's a quick word from our sponsor. This episode is sponsored by Mama Bama and the Mod Canna. They sell CBD products online and are offering a 15% discount to listeners of the podcast. CBD can help relieve anxiety, reduce pain and inflammation, improve sleep, and have many other positive health benefits. Personally, I take CBD gummies every day to manage my stress levels and to help me fall asleep. Go to the modcana.com to shop for CBD-infused products like gummies, lotions, tinctures, and smokables. Please use code DRIVE DRIVE at checkout to support the podcast and receive a 15% discount. I'm going to provide some educational resources about CBD in the show notes, but if you are unsure if you should be consuming CBD, please consult with your doctor. Thanks everyone. This is episode 27 of the Drive program with guests Miam Madden.

Liam 4:02

Yeah, it's about to start steaming. It's about to start screaming and steaming.

Tom 4:09

That's pretty hype.

Liam 4:11

Yeah.

Tom 4:12

Where were you living before this? It was Maine, right?

Liam 4:15

Yeah, so before this, I was living in southern Maine. A lot of people from like the East Coast and stuff, and a lot of different areas. They don't really understand how Maine works, but since I was in southern Maine, I was pretty close to New Hampshire and Vermont and stuff. And I was just working, working and doing a lot of surfing over there.

Tom 4:37

Nice. How was um that area compared to like some of the other places you've lived?

Liam 4:44

So that area was pretty awesome because uh, you know, it wasn't terribly far from the coast. Maine has that whole coastline that's pretty big. When I like break down different areas, usually geographically is very important for me because I do a lot of snowboarding and a lot of surfing. So this time around, I was doing plenty of surfing because I was on the coast. So it was just uh it was very nice for that. But like the area in general, which is really pretty, which is like very visually uh appealing. And then you kind of when you kind of break down the population and stuff, there's a lot less people there. It's kind of like sparsely populated, people are pretty friendly. As far as like politics go, it's kind of like in the middle, like not really too liberal, not too conservative. But uh, yeah, that's pretty much it. It's not bad. I liked it a lot.

Tom 5:38

Nice man. And then where is the area you're in now?

Liam 5:42

So the area I'm in Burlington, Vermont. That's in central Vermont. So it's like kind of right smack dab in the middle of the state, which is perfect for me because there's mountains up north and then there's mountains down south, and then I can also go east back towards like Maine or New Hampshire or stuff. So it's a really good location for that.

Tom 6:07

How far away is that from Delaware?

Liam 6:10

From Delaware, I think it's around seven hours or so.

Tom 6:14

Okay, so it's still pretty decent drive.

Liam 6:17

Yeah, it's like a decent drive, but it's not like you know, I'm on the West Coast or like the Midwest or something, or you know, even when I I was living in South Carolina for a little while, that was like 12 hours, you know. So seven's like a walk in the park.

Tom 6:34

Are you better go home for the holidays and shit?

Liam 6:37

I think um nah, I was just home for I was just home for Thanksgiving. I did a race in Philadelphia. I think that's gonna be pretty much my holiday I go home for. Um, I teach snowboarding on the side. So for Christmas and stuff, I'm off for my job at the hospital, but it's a super busy holiday for like teaching, skiing, and snowboarding. So they'll probably have me. They they probably have me on the schedule to like teach that day.

Tom 7:04

That's dope. You really maximized getting two jobs right away when you when you showed up there, you know. Oh yeah. I was wondering about Christmas because I was about to say, you seem like you're still getting adjusted there. That's very soon to go home, you know.

Liam 7:17

Yeah. Yeah. I like I travel a lot for my job already. And then also with my free time, I'm always driving and flying and going all over the place. So sometimes when I get to a new area or like I had been doing a lot of traveling, I'm just happy to just stay put, you know, and like people want to visit me. Sure, that's great. But maybe I'll just see y'all in a few months after I get more like acquainted to the area.

Tom 7:45

Yeah, I feel you, man. Now that I live in Florida away from family, all my vacations are surrounded by going home. You know, it's a little bit annoying. I mean, obviously, I can go to the beach on like a random weekend, so it's kind of like I jump into vacation mode like more often, but yeah, two times a year I will go to the beach. And now that I'm at the beach, two times a year, it's just like I go home. It's not as exciting, you know. Um, when you're when you're moving to cool places, you can't always take the holidays, you know, or like the vacations somewhere cool, you know?

Liam 8:19

Oh, yeah, for sure. Like I I get that, and and I understand that a lot because I'm I'm like rarely home ever, or like in and around the areas that a lot of my friends from high school and college that I've met, they're always like, hey, you know, come come to like New Jersey or something. And I'm just like, uh not to say Jersey sucks, but I'm just like, hey, dude, like come come see me. I'm in like this place, you know, I'm in the mountains or like I'm at a beach, you know. And then when you do come home, you only have a certain amount of time, you know. You want to see everyone, you want to do everything, but I'll only be home for like maybe a week, like at most, and you you just can't really do and see everything you want to do, you know. Kind of gets like crammed in there, and then you get like kind of stretched too thin and stuff like that.

Tom 9:06

Okay, so you do all this traveling to different areas. Well, not just traveling, but you live in different areas because you are a travel nurse, right? Yep, that is correct. So, why did you decide to be a nurse in the first place? I've been curious.

Liam 9:20

Yeah, no, that's a good question. I decided to be a nurse in the first place. Uh, I was pretty young, and a buddy of mine, his parents were getting like divorced, and he was at like an age where that was pretty upsetting for him. And I remember him being like really kind of bummed out at school about it, and and that really affected me, and that made me upset. And I remember coming home and telling my mom about it, and you know, she like consoled me and whatever, and to kind of help me direct my efforts and thoughts. She's like, Well, you know, maybe you would want to be someone who talks to people and helps people. And I was like, Yeah, that is what I want to do. So that was at a really young age, and um, I kind of always knew I wanted to do something to help people. Maybe speaking to them would be would be helpful. And then fast forward, I was in high school and I was I was trying to figure out, or it was my senior year, and we had like a research paper we had to do. We had a list of topics to pick from. You could either do one of those topics or you could pick a profession that you could be potentially interested in and interview someone who has that job and you know works in that profession. So I picked nursing, and my sister-in-law is a nurse. So I just interviewed her, asked her a bunch of questions, and then I did a ton of research. Like for high school, like I think it was like a 10-page paper. When I got done doing all that, I was like, huh, this is really pretty interesting. And then I was picking my major and my brother's like, you should just do nursing. You know, they always need nurses, male nurses, they love them. And I was like, okay, I will. So I did, and it honestly it all fell into place, and I I lucked out a lot because I I like the classes and everything, but you really don't know what it's going to be like until you're in the clinical setting, like in the hospital helping people and working under nurses. And when I was doing that and had plenty of patient contact, I was like, oh, yeah, this is what I want to do. So it kind of just fell into place. And I'm I'm lucky it was like a straight line because you know, in this day and age, people like change their majors a ton, and it's it's really hard to know like what they what you want to do, you know. But yeah, I've been doing it for a few years now.

Tom 11:31

That's awesome, man. It's it's good to hear that you find this career so rewarding, right? Because it's something that we really need people to do. And especially like over the past two years with COVID, right? It's been an increasingly more stressful career that you've entered into, I'm sure. So I'm glad that you still find fulfillment with it, you know.

Liam 11:53

Oh yeah, absolutely. I I love what I do. I feel fortunate every day that my job exists and they they pay me to do it, you know. And definitely there's a lot, there's a lot of strain with COVID. When people talk about COVID, I say COVID had a plan for everyone, and and my COVID plan was was moving up to the mountains, you know, from the beach to the mountains. But that was that was definitely a pretty difficult time period, especially when it first came out. And I was I was working on a medical unit, and the only patients we were accepting at the time were were COVID patients, like 100%. It was just like a lot, you know, and a lot was happening in the world outside of the hospital, and that was definitely like pretty stressful for a while.

Tom 12:36

Yeah, we also didn't know like exactly how bad it was going to get and stuff, right? Like while it was still ramping up, that must have been scary.

Liam 12:43

Oh, yeah. And I saw like in the hospital in the beginning, you know, we didn't really know how to treat it that well, and people would decompensate, their health would decrease pretty rapidly, and it would go from someone who didn't need any oxygen to breathe at all to needing like a high flow oxygen at like a pretty high level, and then they would have to go to the ICU and stuff like that, like the intensive care unit. And and then throughout some time when I was working on the unit, we you know, the doctors and everyone, everyone started to learn how to like treat it a little better, but early on it was just chaos. People were just like, and it's kind of morbid, but like people are just like dying pretty often. If people are gonna like your patients, like half of them would go to the ICU, like maybe one of them would pass away your shift. Like it was just like a lot for a while.

Tom 13:34

You didn't have a vaccine at first, right? So at that point, you're treating people, you're still um at risk of catching it yourself, right?

Liam 13:43

Oh, yeah, yeah. Now it's like you got your backs, like do you have like proof of it? Do you have your booster, whatever? Right then and there, it wasn't even like no one had even like talked about it at all. So yeah, you were just like going into uh patients' rooms with the 95 masks and like face shield, full gown and gloves, and you would have to like gown up every time you go into the room, you know, and then strip down all your stuff when you get out. And I really just didn't, I mean, no one wants COVID, but I really didn't want it. And I was hand sanitizing from my hands all the way up to like my shoulders and like between masks, I'd have a surgical mask. I would like hold my breath until I got an N95 on. Might be a bit extreme, but like every single patient on my unit, 25 patients, they just like all had it. Every single person is like confirmed having it. So yeah, that was that was kind of stressful. And then uh that's like one thing, but and then the job was hard, but what was really tough is like, man, your job's so stressful, and you you want to get some sort of release, you want to see people, you want to you want to do things, but hey, guess what? Now you're like essentially viewed as a COVID patient because you can't see and do things. Like, I wanted to see a buddy a few states over, and his wife was like, Hey, you working with COVID patients directly? And I'm like, Yeah, and then they're like, Oh, well, we you know, we don't really want you to come. And I was like, Man, I'm out here like working hard, like trying to get people better. And then I mean, I can't even really do much myself because I I could potentially have it and not even know, or something like that, and I don't want to spread it to people, so that's what made it tough outside of work, you know, it's still lingering. You you can't really leave work at work, kind of thing.

Tom 15:24

Damn, that's rough. I wish we knew each other and we did a podcast back then so that you could have connected with someone at least virtually, you know.

Liam 15:31

Yeah, yeah, I think that'll be probably pretty beneficial. They uh during the peak of it, they they had like kind of like support things and groups and stuff. You see things at work, you don't really utilize them to the fullest, but I'm sure people did and it it benefited them a little bit.

Tom 15:48

Yeah, and I guess that's because we didn't have COVID tests either, right? The rapid testing, so that's why you couldn't go see other people and stuff. It just you could maybe have it or maybe not at any point.

Liam 15:59

Yeah, yeah. It's like uh we the rapid testing was far and few in the beginning. People were questioning everything to like a pretty bizarre standpoint, but every single thing, like life itself, they're just questioning everything. But one of the things they questioned was the accuracy of these COVID tests. Like some people would be like, Oh, you know, can I come and I'll get a COVID test? And you know, as long as it's negative, you think I could come like see you or do something? They'd be like, ah nah. And then you just gotta like roll with the punches. You just gotta be like, All right, I respect how you feel about it. I'm not gonna push this thing onto you, like whatever, you know.

Tom 16:35

My girlfriend was was talking to you at the wedding, right? And she said that you were explaining to her that you went for like um a nursing career over like a career as a doctor because you gotta be more like hands-on with the patients, or you just gotta be more like impactful in their lives or something. Can you kind of speak on like your decision to become a nurse and your experience compared to maybe some of the other careers you could have taken in the medical field?

Liam 17:02

Yeah, sure. Absolutely. I mean, a lot a lot of people that want to become doctors, they've wanted to be doctors for like their whole life, or they have a family that they're, you know, they come from a family of doctors and it's almost predetermined for them. So for me, it was never really like an idea or uh thought of if I wanted to become a doctor or or do something like that. Because doctors a lot of times are viewed as the people that they kind of come in and they they solve a few problems and then they're like they're out, you know. But the kind of like more like the dirty work, more of the hands-on, and uh the people have like the most patient care is the nurses, you know. You're you're talking to them the the whole day, you're you're uh giving them like care, you're you're hanging bags of fluid, you're giving them blood, you're doing like all these different things, and then uh you're kind of the middleman between the the patient and the doctor, but but you have these moments with with the patients that you can go above and beyond and and really just talk to them, give them a little bit of extra time to chat, and it's more personable. Whereas uh sometimes doctors they don't have all that much time, they're stretched pretty thin, they have a ton of patients, so they don't have time to like just be chatting with the patient, and and sometimes it feels like they're they kind of just come in and they're there for five minutes and then they're out. The person you see least in your care is probably your doctor, and it's probably like them like having you sign some forms that are pretty important, and you might need a little extra time because when you're delivered some sort of news, whether it's like, hey, you're going to get surgery today on your foot because it's infected, or you know, you have this diagnosis. When you get that news, your your brain kind of can just turn off because it's overwhelming. And then the doctor sees them and then they're out. But then, like a little bit later, the patient's like, Oh, wait, I had this question, or I had that question, or like, you know, and then for me as a nurse, I'm like, okay, well, let me know all the questions. I'll like just relay it to the doctor, you know, just go from there. But yeah, I picked nursing because I'm just knew that there's so many different kinds, you know. You can be a school nurse, you can work in like a lot of different places in the hospital, you can be a psychiatric nurse. And I just knew that if I got bored of one area of nursing, I could just go to a different one and learn about that. Another thing I was thinking about doing was an occupational therapist because my my mom was a physical or still is a physical therapist, and uh OT is like similar-ish to PT, you know, and that was like another thing I was kind of like thinking of, but I didn't really pursue it.

Tom 19:57

Yeah, I was thinking about what you were saying about doctors. It seems like I guess since they're making the decisions about a patient, they can't really get close to the patient at the same time because I mean it would be harder to make tough decisions for them. So I guess it's kind of the the nurse's job to actually get close with them and be their care and support, you know? So you said you wanted to talk about being a traveling nurse. Did that play into your decision to be a nurse in general? Did it all kind of come together like, oh, if I become a nurse, I can travel, or is this something that you've kind of discovered after falling in love with nursing?

Liam 20:32

Uh it definitely was discovered after I fell in love with nursing and I've been uh or you know, it was in school. I was in school, and uh you get you get to be your junior, senior year, and when you're doing your your clinical rotations, every you know, seasoned nurse that's shadowing that you're shadowing and stuff, when they make small talk with you, they ask you what kind of nurse, what kind of nurse do you want to be? And years and years ago, I guess it was, I don't know, I guess like six years ago, I I had found out about travel nursing. It was pitched to me, hey, you move around, they give you money for your room and board, it's pretty good money, and you get to see and do a lot of things. And I was like, wow, that's I I'd really only gotten my feet a little bit wet traveling at that point in time, but I I had an interest in that. So every time a nurse asks me, Hey, what do you want to, what do you want to do? And I'll just be like, Oh, I want to be like a traveling nurse. But then once I graduated, I realized you have to get at least a a year or two experience working as a nurse until you before you can just like up and just move to different areas, you know? Because uh you can't be like a brand new nurse working on on a unit that's like needs travelers because then they're gonna be like, oh, this person's kind of incompetent and like this defeats the purpose of a traveling nurse.

Tom 21:54

Yeah, man. So how long have you actually been traveling then?

Liam 21:58

So it's been November last November 23rd was a year. So it's been like a year and a month, 13, 13 months or something.

Tom 22:09

Okay. And you you say you move around about every three months?

Liam 22:13

Yeah. So ideally how it works is uh you have 13-week assignments. That's like the average assignment. And you can sometimes, if you know the hospital likes you and they still have a need for for nurses and they're not able to fill that hole, uh, they'd rather re-sign a traveling nurse that they know and they like and uh you know they do a good job or whatever, than to have you leave and then get a new traveling nurse that they have to train. They only train them for like a day or two, but it's kind of rolling the dice. They don't know if it's going to be a good nurse or not. But if they if they like you and you like the hospital and you like the area, sometimes you can re-sign your contract. So when that comes into play, you can renegotiate your pay and stuff with your scheduling and stuff like that. Yeah, I've I've definitely re-signed my contract a few times, so it's just like helpful to kind of just re-sign sometimes. It's it's easier not to MOOC every three months, but but some people do it every three months, they move.

Tom 23:16

Yeah, right. It seems pretty short-lived, you know. So I could see if you've really fallen in love with a hospital or an area being like, all right, let's do this for six months, you know. Yeah. Oh it might not be that many places, but what is your favorite location that you've lived at? Not like people or hospital, but like just the area.

Liam 23:37

Yeah, that's a good one. Oh, that's that's very good. I've been trying to figure that one out recently, actually.

Tom 23:44

Yeah.

Liam 23:45

Um, I think my absolute it'll be it'll always be my number one until something comes out of nowhere. But um, I lived in Mammoth Lakes, California for five and a half months, and this was right out of college. It was just so cool because a lot of my friends, like, you know, moved back in with their parents, save some money, doing their thing, you know, or kind of have a job that's okay, or don't have a job, you know, just figuring it out. That's what everyone was doing. There's nothing wrong with that. Like, that's just normal. But like for me, I was like, I'm gonna go work at this mountain, like in California. So I just thought it was sick, and it was such a cool area, like snow capped mountains, and they come down to like right next to beautiful lakes. And recently I followed them on social media. They recently got like a foot of snow, like yesterday, and I'm just like, Oh, I wish I was there, but uh it sounds cliche, but it's just magical, it's just a magical place. It's like the the people, the place is like one square mile is the town, the smallest town, and then it's just like a badass mountain, and uh it's just good.

Tom 24:53

Yeah, dude. I I was thinking about what you were saying, how most people don't do that right out of college. From my experience, a lot of people have a really rough time 22, 23, 24, like those years right after college, they're not like take some time to figure it out, right? Even me, like I I always wanted to leave Virginia, but I didn't get to Florida until I was 26. Like, it takes time to kind of like get on your feet and figure get a career down and then find out, you know, usually find out where you want to live. That's crazy that you were just able to capitalize on the moment and do some adventure type shit, right? Right uh right in your early 20s, you know.

Liam 25:29

Yeah, I I was so stoked about that, like in general, and like it was a lot of it was winging it. Uh the money I was making then was like not really, it was just fueling my experience. I wasn't saving much money or anything, but I've just I've always been that kind of person that I kind of just very spontaneous with what I want to do, where I want to go, and I'm just kind of like on my own agenda in a lot of ways, and uh that's like pretty exciting for me, but uh along my travels, not many people function that way, so it's it's kind of like a little different. Like when I when I meet people and they know I'm gonna be moving in a few months, they might not be as inclined to want to get to know me, you know, and see what I'm about because they're gonna be like, Oh, he's you know, he's gonna be gone in a few months. Like there's really not many people that have this like nomadic lifestyle, you know.

Tom 26:26

Yeah, it's rough, but I think it's becoming more and more possible. For me, it's really hard to move location, right? Because I have a girlfriend. I think a lot of people with a family or girlfriend, it makes it harder to do that. But we both just got um remote jobs, and I think we're both gonna be able to stay like in a remote career. So if that happens, I think we're gonna look into doing some sort of like temporary living situation here and there at least, you know. I think we might have a home, a home base in Florida, but there is definitely like ways of basically like you could live in a different apartment, you could do like a rent like a service and live in a different city every month, you know? And when you're when you're working fully remote, those kind of opportunities are like pretty possible. So I think you're ahead of the curve. I think a lot of people are gonna start doing things like this, you know, where they experience a bunch of different areas, you know, at least like here and there.

Liam 27:24

Yeah, I think I think you're totally right. It is becoming more common, uh, because with like the influx of the disease and everything, um, it's forced a lot of people to be remotely working or like a lot of medical stuff, they would just like call in or do like a televisit, stuff like that. And then because they were forced to do some of those things, they never really did before. And now that they've done it and they've realized it works, and that you know, they just like learned a lot. I think there's just a ton more like jobs that are continuing to work remotely because they're like, Oh, productivity is just as good, if not better. You know, we don't need you to come to this place because you can do the work at home, and you probably always could, you know. But but that's that's awesome. Yeah, you guys could rent a van and just like go all over.

Tom 28:17

I don't know about renting a van.

Liam 28:19

Yeah, I mean, that'd be like it might, you know, if you're in a van with your girlfriend, you you might get kind of tired of you know, what you do there.

Tom 28:28

I don't I I don't know if you've noticed, but like van life has become huge on TikTok. People are like, I live in a van. There's a bunch of funny videos of people opening up their their van to like a Walmart parking lot and being like, Wow, look how look how beautiful my life is.

Liam 28:43

That's great. That's that's accurate too. Walmart parking lots, they let you park your van there. Like, that's totally the thing.

Tom 28:49

Some people make it look really glamorous. Some people have like the nice RV and it's all decked out, but then I don't think everyone living in their car is is got quite the the glamorous lifestyle, you know.

Liam 29:00

No, I I think I think about it because I'm like a ski bum, like uh surf bomb kind of dude, and I'm travel around for travel nursing, so like financially it it would make sense, but then you're living in a van. I'm sorry, like hey, I like I meet some people in a new town. Hey, you want to come back to like my van? You know, like I don't know.

Tom 29:22

No, whatever my van, dude. Dude, I I no offense, I could definitely see you living in a van. I could definitely I could definitely see it. I've gotten it before. You said they covered your room and board, so it almost doesn't make sense for you. But if they didn't cover that, then it probably would make sense for you, right? I mean, you'd save a shit ton of money.

Liam 29:45

So also how that component works is so they give you your base hourly rate and then your food, it's like your food and house stipend. That's like a fixed rate, so you don't have to like give them receipts of where you're living. Uh and they're like, Oh, you spent well, they're just like, Oh, it's probably like two grand a month to live in the area. So they're just like, Yeah, fine housing. Here's two grand no matter. So if you spend less, the less you spend on housing, the more you make, essentially. But double-edged sword, you don't want to live in like a little you know, hobbit hole or something like that, you know, where like your kitchenette is next to your bed. I've done that, I have done that before.

Tom 30:28

So um so you could, so then you could live in a van and save that and pocket that money, and you'd be all right.

Liam 30:34

Yeah, totally.

Tom 30:35

Yeah, I mean, you probably would need to save up for this, but if you get a good enough RV, you'd be fine. My grandparents owned our RV and they spent about nine months a year after they retired, just like going across the country living out of this RV, and they two people they loved it, you know. So, yeah, with one person, you'd be fine, and it wouldn't be that weird. People could come over, like they had a pretty spacious amount of room, but yeah, I I would like totally get an RV.

Liam 31:03

That would be that would be sick.

Tom 31:06

That'd be radical.

Liam 31:08

I would really like that.

Snowboarding vs Surfing

Tom 31:10

That'd be such a funny, funny scene, dude. Um okay, so part of the reason you love travel nursing though is because you pick like a snowboarding spot usually and a surf spot in the winters and the summers. Yep. So if gun to your head, you can only do one of the two for the rest of your life. Which one?

Liam 31:32

I'll just like grab the gun and just pull the trigger. I would uh for me, it's it's snowboarding. I like snowboarding more. That's my absolute number one. But uh the last two, three years, I've progressed so much in surfing and have lived in beach towns that like surfing's getting more and more to be like that close, second. Like it's right right next to it, but it'd be snowboarding. I I love it, it's a it's like the best sport, yeah.

Tom 32:04

Okay, so let's talk about snowboarding first. Then what have you been snowboarding since you were a kid?

Liam 32:08

Yeah, I started snowboarding. Like I was in Pennsylvania, and I think the place was called Bear Creek, and it's like some shitty Pennsylvania slope. And I was seven years old. I was taking like a lesson, and I'm I'm pretty keen on the progressive steps of uh how to start learning, like you know, the step by step of how you how you learn how to snowboard. But at the time I was just a little kid, and they had us with like one foot in, like skating around, you know, you kind of like have your other foot and you like push like a skateboard and then put it on there. And uh I was so little and I was like, man, this is stupid. We don't even have two feet on the board, and and this like instructor, I just thought he was like a jabroni, so then like they had us learning how to do turns, and then I just like we're supposed to take a left and then cycle back. I just took a right and just kept going. And my instructor is like, Well, I don't know where that kid's going. I just like left the class and then went on the hill and just ate shit all day long, like just just trying to learn on my own and uh a lot of trial and error up until my early 20s when I started teaching, but uh but yeah, I I'd started at a pretty young age.

Tom 33:24

Yeah, dude, I was the same way, I just would fall over over and over and over again, and I give a fuck, you know what I'm saying? So like I I could keep going all day, and then when I was 17, I actually broke my collarbone snowboarding. So up until that point, I was a maniac, like I would just go straight down, like I didn't give I didn't care, you know. That wasn't great, but I like I said, I didn't care if I like totally ate shit. So I had a really fun time, and then I I actually own my own snowboard. I don't like I said, then I broke my collarbone and then it just changed the energy towards it. I was like just more I I go like joy rides now, like I go down slow and I'm just like taking my time. I'm like, yeah, I don't want to break that again, you know.

Liam 34:02

So absolutely that's a big eye-opener, man. Like, get that first injury is like huge.

Tom 34:08

Yeah, I mean, if I broke my wrist or something, it would have just been a different story. But breaking my collarbone was kind of traumatic. That takes so long to heal, it's hard to sleep every night. It's just like one of those bones that's not fun. So, like, I'm sure if I got hurt again, it wouldn't be the same one, but like you it just does something to your brain where you're just not as reckless after that moment, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But um, what do you teach people when they're first starting off? What are the I I know you go in like an S shape, right? Um yeah, like what are the other basics to to snowboarding when you're when you're teaching somebody?

Liam 34:45

Yeah, so the super basics would be like starting with one foot in, learning how to just glide on the snow. Cause a lot of people I would teach when I was out west, a lot of these people were from uh Southern California, like Orange County, LA area, and they they're just at the beach all the time. So they're not as familiar with snow. Maybe it was the first time they're seeing snow. They've never gone sledding. So so in the beginning, it's kind of like getting the sensation down of sliding on snow. You kind of have them only have one foot in. So if it kind of gets out of control, they just take their one foot that's not locked in and kind of slow themselves down. But to kind of fast forward into like more tangible snowboarding stuff, it's uh you you really just kind of teach them their heel edge and then their toe edge, and eventually you have them link those edges. You're you're on your heel edge and you're going across the mountain, and then you you connect to a toe side turn. But it's just breaking down those components. Like everyone, it's more it's pretty common for people to learn heel edge first because they're looking down the hill. You kind of just put your toes up and you slide down. Uh, so then you kind of have them master that and then learn how to kind of traverse across the mountain or whatever, and then you incorporate toe edge, and then you just you just link those two together. And then once you link them, you you can eventually get like S turns. But uh a lot of things that I teach is you know, it's really just focusing on what I'm saying to, I was about to say patience to the students, you know, wrong job to the students, and like have like make sure they pay attention to me and what what I say, and it's uh a lot of it's just your body movement and trusting what I say will will help you once fear gets involved, which ever a lot of people have it. Uh teaching little kids, I started as a really pretty big youngster, which was great. But when you're older and you're you're learning for the first time, you're like, dude, I can't get hurt. I have work and kids and whatever. That fear component makes you kind of lock up and doesn't allow you to absorb the information the the way you should be, you know. So I I oftentimes tell them, don't worry, if you listen to me, I'll keep you safe. You know, try to decrease uh that kind of like anxious feeling about like falling and hitting your ass or something. And like for your injury, like once you came back into it, you had more of the fear because you had that kind of traumatic injury that you you're not as inclined to like just gun it down the mountain now, which is like it's kind of like instinctual. Your body and brain tells you that so you don't get hurt again, and then you have pros that just do whatever after like a really major injury.

Tom 37:32

Yeah, fear is such a powerful emotion, you know, that it's really it's really intense. And and I feel like doing these things like surfing and snowboarding and hurting yourself, it increases the level of fear that not no, it creases um let me say it this way people that don't do what you do, right? They get scared in their house that you know that they're gonna get mugged or or if they walk down the street or that you know that their boss is gonna be mad at them. They get fearful over small things, right? And then if you go like race down the mountain and you're you know you're in real danger and you feel like real life fear, I feel like that should have an effect on like the other smaller parts of your life. You're not gonna be as fearful, you know.

Liam 38:16

I feel like no, yeah, for sure. I think it uh what what I think what it does is it increases your threshold of fear and what scares you.

Tom 38:26

Threshold, threshold, threshold, baby.

Liam 38:29

I knew you were trying to say it. I was like gonna plug in, but uh it definitely does, you know. Um, I've been in like pretty tremetuous waters, you know, waters that people drown in and shit. And I've been in like kind of scenarios where I thought I was gonna drown for like a little bit, you know, you kind of come out and you're like, wow, I'm alive, my life like flashed before my eyes. But then when I go back to my day-to-day basis and I'm uh I I don't I don't really like public speaking. And for nursing, I have to give report to a whole group of people about all my patients and stuff. When I think about like going in the room and speaking in front of people and being scared or anxious or whatever, it's I'm not risking my life, you know, it's all in my head. I'll be fine. I'm not in the ocean like getting pounded by waves and like I'm I might not see the light of day. It's only what's going on in your head, and it and it does make some of those things that might seem kind of scary for me just a little less because I I see and do like a decent amount of like extreme things that increase that threshold.

Tom 39:31

Yeah, when it comes to public speaking, apparently that's the thing that people fear most in the world, and the second most thing is death. So that means that at a funeral, people would rather be the person in the coffin than the person giving the speech sometimes. Like you know, that's crazy, man.

Liam 39:49

Yeah, yeah, that that's pretty wild. They they say that you know, one thing that is consistent in this world is that it's always going to change, nothing will ever be the same. There's death, there's life, there's and acceptance is such a powerful thing. Like if you accept death, if you like you want to come into it. Uh, I've been reading this book, but they say that you want to come to your death with either joy would be the best thing possible. You know, you're just like you're a joyous person down to your soul. You know, you don't have that immediate satisfaction kind of joy, you just have that contentment. So you want to approach death like that. If you can't do that, at least acceptance. And if you can't do that, at least with no regret, and you you'll have like a peaceful pass passing or whatever. But that's a pretty interesting take about the coffin and the the person doing the eulogy.

Tom 40:42

Yeah, yeah. I was thinking about what you're saying about joy, and I feel like people in old age, they either get like bitter or they get more joyous, right? It's like this increasing like your last 20, 30 years, and you can see people go down the bitter scale, the you know, spiral, or they they just get like more and more joyous every day, and it's like weird. I I feel like practicing like gratitude and things like that are little tricks to help you get to that that more joyous mindset in the end, you know.

Liam 41:11

Oh, for sure. I mean, it you you just gotta know everything that is good, bad, and ugly that that can go on with your with your world is just inside of your head. If you if you change your perception of reality, you you're gonna change the world. The the world that you see. Like if you change the way you look at it in turn, you're gonna change the world. That's like unfolding. I think a lot of people when they're older ages and stuff, they might have stuff throughout their life that they didn't process. And then guess what? They don't really have maybe the means to process those things, or maybe they they're not able to connect with someone or something that's been causing them pain, and then it might come out in a negative way. They might and they might be fearful of death, and then the fear turns into anxiety, and then the anxiety turns into anger, which which can make them kind of bitter, you know. That's I think that's what makes like older people bitter. Is it's it's essentially uh uh from fear to anxiety to anger, you know.

Tom 42:19

Yeah. So when I interviewed Frank, I don't know if you listened to this one, it was the first one. He was talking about Carl Jung and like the dark side of kind of psychology. If you remember, like back in college, Frank was just always like super positive all the time. And he said that he he needed to like reflect on the darker parts of himself. It seems like based on what you just said and your experience, right, through nursing and through just living a more dangerous life, you've been experienced to like some of the more ugly sides of life. Your lifestyle has forced you to process some darker things than most people ever have to process, you know. So, like, how has that helped you? How is how is that added to the person that you are today?

Liam 43:06

Amongst many things, kind of a cliche thing, but um you can't have one ultimate positive without an ultimate negative because you won't be able to uh realize how good a situation is if you don't if you only ever experience that. So for me, you know, death and dying that I see a lot at work, not as much anymore. I do psychiatric nursing currently, but when I used to do like medical nursing, I'll see death and dying a lot. I might be in scenarios where I'm out up the river without a paddle or whatever the phrase is, you know, in in like pretty uh dangerous waters and stuff. Yeah, those those things just totally help me appreciate life itself. I see, you know, a older person that's like someone's loved one, and I'm like, that could be my grandmother, my grandfather. It could be like they're like my uh nieces or nephews out and they're like, oh, that could be like my like their grandkids at the bedside, like really upset and you know, all those things. So it like you said, gratitude, it it helps me uh appreciate those things and it makes those positives uh just shine that that much more because because I have like I've seen and experienced some like pretty pretty lows, and uh yeah, pretty much.

Tom 44:32

This might be a random question, but it just feels right in the moment. What in your words, what do you think the meaning of life is?

Liam 44:40

Oh, okay. I figured this one out like a few years ago.

Tom 44:45

Really?

Liam 44:48

So it's uh not you know, it's it's you can take in so many directions. Like it's like, oh, it doesn't even matter, like no matter how if you're a celebrity or you're so relevant at one time, there will always be a time where eventually no one cares anymore. You're like, you know, your legacy, like whatever. But I I I was like kind of pretty young, and I was I was trying to figure out the meaning of life. I've always been like a bit of a deep thinker. Uh and Frank Frank loves psychology and philosophy and stuff. And I in college I actually minored in philosophy, so I was always like learning about that stuff. But I believe the meaning of life, it's honestly it's just fun. Enjoy it. You know, you you you know, you work hard uh or like you're younger, you're a kid, you're you're more focused on your happiness than like anything else, and life should be light and not too stressful. And then eventually, if if you're someone who has kids or what, but if you're looking to have kids, eventually your your fun kind of turns off, but then you're trying to make money, set up a good life for your kids, and you want them to have fun. So it's kind of like that flow of energy of of just enjoyment, you know. You kind of you do your time, and maybe if you don't have kids, you just kind of continue to just try to have fun. I think it's like that's the basic thing.

Tom 46:13

Yeah, I feel like a lot of people would say living in the present moment is important, and I think fun kind of keeps you there, right? Because I used to work all the time like on my app and stuff, and it was always about what the app was going to become, not like what it was, you know. Yeah, and I just didn't have that much fun at a certain point. Whereas like with these podcasts, I just have fun talking to people, you know, and it really pulls me into the present moment. And yeah, even though I do want the podcast to like blow up or be, you know, more popular, I'm never worried or I'm never not enjoying the moment, you know. So it just keeps it, it keeps it enjoyable, you know.

Liam 46:53

Yeah, yeah. I just uh I've been like reading a lot lately, and this book I've been reading recently, it's got like the Dalai Lama and this archbishop guy. And it's not really religious, they're they're two super spiritual people, but they just go on like a week-long excursion and have all these conversations about deeper things, like what gives you a joyous life and stuff like that. And one of the things they touched on was the importance of, like you said, being present in the moment, uh letting you're you're never gonna be in a moment if your mind's somewhere else. Like if you're doing homework, do your homework. You know, if you're if you're uh like on a mountain snowboarding, just just think about that. Like those things are just so helpful to like just just be there and be present. And I know like a lot of people when they when they hear about things and meditation and this, that, and whatever, and I kind of have a jerk reaction, not as much anymore because I love it, but some people are like, ah, that sounds silly, you know. Oh, that's like, you know, but sure, like just you're gonna breathe, that's gonna make you feel better. We breathe every day, you know, like stuff like that. But uh just be being present is so helpful. And um, you know, I kind of have had like this diagnosis of ADD, so it's it's hard to be present when your mind's always wandering, but I've kind of combated it with mindfulness, meditation, and and being able to be in that moment is just huge. If your mind's elsewhere, I'm off of work and I'm thinking about work when I'm home. That's not good, that's not healthy. You know, I'm not gonna be able to be present with my friends and family, and then you know, and then it's almost just like a waste.

Tom 48:36

I feel you, man. Wait, what's the name of that book, real quick?

Liam 48:39

It's called The Book of Joy.

Tom 48:42

The Book of Joy. Okay, I'll check it out. I've been reading a lot lately too.

Liam 48:45

It's a very good book. I've like been cranking it out. I'm almost on it, and I've only read like a few days.

Tom 48:52

But yeah, just to tie it back into the conversation, right? I feel like snowboarding and surfing, they force you to stay in the present moment because you're moving, you know, through water or through snow. You can't possibly be thinking about anything else, or you're gonna hurt yourself. So, in what I I mean, we kind of touched on it, but in what other ways do those activities affect your mental health? And maybe is there a difference between the two? Is there a difference between like the energy behind those two activities and and the way you feel about yourself and life after you know living in one area versus the other area?

Liam 49:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah, dude. Um, oh, there's a lot of things like uh you know, I I'm I'm on a surfboard, I'm paddling into a wave, and just the sensation of getting up and I'm I'm feeling the wave break behind me, I'm cutting up and down the wave. That just being like an entertaining piece, and then kind of getting a bit of adrenaline, depending on the surf, it's big surf out there or what or what, that adrenaline component, you know, that's going to release endorphins. The the entertainment is going to release endorphins. And then a kind of a small piece, but I was learning I learned about this like years ago. But being at the beach, uh it has these things called just positive ions. You know, when you when you look at the horizon, it's 180 degrees. You you can follow it all the way across your your site in front of you. And when you do that, it it releases these endorphins as well. And then you're exercising, you know, you're paddling around, you're ducking under waves. So the component of all those things, just like the entertainment factor, the exercise, and the the beach being such a healing place. And yeah, it's just that I mean that that definitely boosts my well-being. Activities, being active is so essential for me. But yeah, and it it helps you be in that present moment. A really good way to be in the present moment is like practicing mindfulness, and that's thinking about all of your different senses that are hitting you at once. Your sense of smell, taste, what you can feel, see, you know, all those things. So when you're surfing, a lot of that shit's going on at the same time. Like you're in water, so you can feel the water. You know, you can feel your surfboard, you're you're seeing these waves come in. So you're really locked in. Um, it smells like beachy and stuff. You might splash some water in your mouth. It's like salt water. So, like you're adhering to all of these different senses. And when you put them together, you're like, you're right then and there, you know, you're like in that moment. And snowboarding is like uh similar but different. You know, you're on a mountain, you have that peacefulness of, you know, it's so quiet with the snow, it's like got good insulation. So you'll be on the ski lift, and you just got done ripping down the hill and you're kind of like huffing and puffing, and it's just this extra stillness or quietness, and and that's kind of therapeutic in itself. And then the sensation of coming down the hill, going through some snow that might be untouched, or you know, sharing this experience with with someone else, like another friend snowboarding or skiing. I don't know. When when you get to share something with someone else, it's like you get two experiences because it's it's yours that's unfolding, but then you get to see them enjoy themselves and you get their perspective, stuff that stands out for them, and that kind of increases it. And uh yeah, I mean, those are my two favorite things in the world, and they're they're so essential to my well-being, and they help me be present, that's for sure.

Tom 52:38

So uh I've done snowboarding and surfing, so I I can speak on both. I'm I'm not as experienced as you are, but I'm trying to think about like what the difference is, and they're so similar, right? The way you you you get pulled, you wait on the lift to get pulled up, and the way you have to wait for a good wave to come are so similar. You know what I'm saying? They're like it's like it's like this warm, this like this warm-up process where like you're not still, right? Because the water's moving under you and you're moving up the lift, but it's like the slow buildup, almost like a roller coaster, how you get pulled up to it, you know. There's that like build build-up to it. And then I feel like the big difference is in surfing, you're so immersed into nature, right? Like the sweat is pouring off your face, it's it's connecting with the water, you can feel the water and the sand and the air. But then, like snowboarding, like you said, it's so insulated. You got gloves on and a coat on, and like you can't even feel the snow because you're numb, like a spaceship in outer space. You're just so insulated from the environment, you know, it's such a dangerous environment, they're just so different, you know. But you're both gliding on top of water molecules on each one, like you know, like if you just think about water itself, it's like okay, you're on a board, you're gliding over water, but one is like a water that you want to be immersed into and like really feel, and the other one is isolate myself, and you're just like you're so much more in your head, I feel like in in surf or in snowboarding, then you know I'm saying because of that.

Liam 54:05

No, yeah, for sure. The gear that's involved in snowboarding is just like so much more than uh in surfing. Surfing, you depending where you're at, all you really need is a board, you know, board wax it up and you get out there. And yeah, you're you're very like right in the just the idea of the water, you know. I I love I've thought about that. It's like either the water's frozen or or it's not. It's like that's my favorite, you know, thing being able to go down the mountain or go down the wave. And and they they also have those similarities that so much of snowboarding and surfing is dependent on weather patterns. So these surfers and these snowboarders like myself, I mean, I'm I'm looking at radars, I'm looking at multiple different like weather sites because I want to see exactly what's going on. So, like I'm like practicing a little bit and I'm pretty keen on weather patterns, like kind of like meteorologist stuff. I'm pretty familiar with where I'm at and what the weather looks like that day. And I can kind of predict, like, you know, I'm looking at the clouds and I see a certain kind of cloud, I'm like, oh yeah, I think it's probably gonna snow later, or you know, and stuff like that, which that's like a pretty interesting component, you know. They're both like you want good snow, you want fresh snow, you want it to be cold out and then surfing. You all you all you really want is uh the waves to kick up, but another component is which way the wind is facing. You know, if it's going out to sea, that's that's helpful. But if it's going towards the beach or north or south, it it might just make these potentially waves that could be really nice all choppy. It's just not as good to surf because it's not they'll they'll call it like clean, that it's not as clean, you know, it's not a uh uniform wave that breaks, it's got a bunch of little ripples in it and stuff, and it's not as good to surf.

Tom 55:58

Yeah, it feels like man versus nature is the most purest form of competition and challenge we have back in the day. Like we evolved outside, right? For for millions of years, not just like not just humans, but but monkeys and everything we evolve from came from outside, and we've been battling with the outdoors. And it seems like seems like now that we're all inside, it that might be what's causing some of the bad mental health is that we're not challenged by nature the same way. I I was listening to some podcasts and someone was like, Why do people like golf so much? And someone was like, Well, the weather's always changing, so it's always you versus the day, you know, you versus the the kind of day it is. And I and you know, golf is even more consistent, I feel like, than your sports. So it's really like uh there's very just slight differences, you know, whether the wind are things, but they're more in tune to it. Like what whatever can kind of put you up against weather on different days really allows you to reflect on yourself and test yourself and and just like I said, like competition against other people is not always the most positive thing, but competition against yourself through different weather patterns is such an interesting way to know yourself, you know, and understand yourself.

Liam 57:14

Yeah, for sure. And uh I'll kind of pick up from what you said, like competition against others. I'm like uh I'm a super active person. I played every sport growing up, every team sport, and and then I kind of got into extreme sports at a pretty early age. I've always been super competitive, but with myself. You know, I'm always trying to, if I'm running a race, I'm trying to run a faster time. If I'm snowboarding, I'm out there and I'm trying to do stuff I haven't done before or the things I am doing, I'm trying to perfect. But yeah, it's really interesting, also what you said about being outside and being more connected to nature. And somewhere along the way, we have these big cities, we have people that only are inside 24-7. Oh, I'm a homebody. When you think about it, from years of uh evolution and stuff, we it's it's instilled in our brain to get our daily dose of Mother Nature, what no matter what that is. There's studies saying that, like, even if you're in a home and you have a houseplant, it will increase increase your serotonin levels. You'll be a little bit happier with your houseplant than if you have nothing inside or like some sort of picture that's like nature-y. I mean, it's really important to get out there. It you don't have to be going crazy and surfing, snow, whatever. Walk, go walk in the woods for like 10-15 minutes, you know. It's it just kind of helps things uh fall into place, it allows your your neurons and in your brain to create new synapses, you know, and that and that's awesome.

Tom 58:50

Yeah, no, there's certain patterns when we see sunlight in the early morning, it does something, it resets us. And and like you said about the horizon, ever since I moved to Florida and I'm not in a city and like I don't have those buildings blocking my view. Being able to see a horizon and see space, it does something in my brain. I'm not even sure what, but it's good. I don't I like it.

Liam 59:15

Hey man, that's what matters, but but you can feel it, and you and you've experienced it, you know, firsthand that like these different views. Like right now, I mean, I'm at this lake, like I showed you like a little snippet, but I'm at this lake house, and I'm I'm just looking out on the lake right now, and in the in the background is is these mountains in New York. It's beautiful. Uh where where you're at and like how you're living, and a lot of times it like those components of of like views from your house have a have a big impact of you just your general, your well-being from day to day. You know, I've I've lived in kind of like smaller places and like a little city. You get kind of cooped up. You you get uh a little bit of like almost like cabin fever because you you don't feel as free. Like, you know, a lot of people, New York, LA, like people would be like, oh, they're like pretty angry people, they're so fast-paced. And it's like I think a lot of times it's just like pent up and they never really have much of a release. You need to do something to kind of reset yourself in in a kind of way.

Tom 1:00:20

Why do you think we need to see beauty? What what is that?

Liam 1:00:25

When when you see something and it gives you that awe, it just I think it just gets those chemicals going up in that brain. Like when you're when you're at a national park and you know, you you're at maybe you're at Arches in in Utah and you see that, it just allows you to take yourself out of your mind, your body, and you have curiosity, you're impressed by it, and it might even be such a substantial thing in front of you that it makes you feel like kind of like just there, you know, you're you're kind of in that moment, like kind of more of the mindfulness. But um, I think we need to experience that because it just it releases those endorphins, it makes you happy, you know, amongst amongst many things, it keeps you going. It's uh I don't know. Yeah, no, no, man. I mean, that's like you totally need it, you totally need it, that's for sure.

Tom 1:01:26

I'm gonna have to guide you spiritually here, but I think it connects, I think it connects you to like the divine or some higher power or the universe or God or whatever you want to call it. Yeah, I don't know. In those moments where you really take in something beautiful, I don't know, you get the feeling of something greater, you know. Yeah, it's wild.

Liam 1:01:45

For sure. You you feel little, you feel insignificant, but also you're just in the presence of something so powerful that you just have that human interaction of, like, you know, when you see fireworks and stuff, you just make those noises. You're like, you know, like those oohs and ahs and stuff. I love going around and you you follow me on social media and stuff. I'm always posting pictures of different mountains and stuff like along my travels. And sometimes I'm pretty focused on getting like a nice photo. I love taking really good photos, but one time I was up on this mountain, I was in Maine. Uh, the mountain's called Sugar, Sugar Loaf, and the sun was setting. It was like the last run of the day. The sun was setting behind this mountain range out there, and uh, I guess it'd be northwest Maine. And I wanted to take this picture, you know, get an awesome picture. I pulled out my phone, it was so cold, my phone was just like dead. I pulled out my GoPro. GoPro, like turned on, immediately died. And then I'm just like, well, I just sat there and I just tried my hardest just to look and just try to take a like a mental picture and just appreciate it for what it is. Sometimes you you want to capture these things so you can take them with you, take other people on on your journey by showing them these photos, but other times it's it's also good just to kind of sit there in in the presence and just try your hardest and and just be just be there and uh I don't know. I think it allows your brain to kind of think differently too. You when you see these things, you kind of come out of it with like a different idea, you know.

Tom 1:03:26

Yeah, dude, I've had similar experiences with recording a podcast, a really beautiful conversation, and it turns out the mic was messed up or something. And then I just have to be like, Well, I had that conversation, I have the memory of it. That was great. I don't need to share it, you know. Obviously, like I would be it makes me very, very upset, and I do everything to make sure that I am recording and I don't lose the audio or it's not bad quality or whatever. But you know, you gotta be just grateful for the experience first, and then you know, focus on the photo or the recording, you know, as like um it's not it's not the main event, right? The experience was the main event, and then that's just the extra like aftermath, you know.

Liam 1:04:11

Yeah, it's like the finite capture of what occurred. You have your perception, I have my perception of the conversation, and then we have this ability to record it and really kind of hear how we both sounded and and like go from there. But I I really like that idea you said of the main events or the the first experiences, what you're feeling straight up, like in live moment, and then secondary is to help you reflect and and look at that would be through recording the audio, the video, whatever, and sharing it with sharing it with other people too, you know.

Tom 1:04:50

Oh, yeah, all about them listeners, yeah, dude. You gotta make the bread somehow, you know. Yeah, absolutely. So, dude, I I'm really happy we've kind of weaved our way into some nuanced conversations. I was telling you over the phone, like we might just talk about the marathon because it felt more like inner interview style, right? So it's really hard for me to get to this place online with people, but this has felt definitely more like a in-person conversation than it usually does online.

Liam 1:05:19

Yeah, man, that's that's awesome. And like I'm just so stoked to hear from you, catch up a little bit. You know, I I was really happy to get to know you and stuff through our you know, our mutual friend Frank and him getting married. And we've really only hung out at at the bachelor party and the wedding, but man, where there's some powerful meetings, you know. There's a lot of experience, a lot of bonding and stuff. And I'm just stoked to hear from you, honestly.

Tom 1:05:46

Yeah, man. No, I was kind of let down that I didn't make as many new friends here in Florida, and then all of a sudden, like you said, within that weekend, it's just like, oh, we're good friends all of a sudden. So I'm like, cool, I'm gonna hang on to these friends, you know, when they come because. It's important to make meaningful connections with people, you know. For sure. Yeah. And also, dude, man, just waking up doing this in the morning feels so fucking good. Because uh I I mean, I know you're a morning person, but sometimes I I told you I train at 8 30 in the morning. Sometimes I go take a nap for an hour after that shit. But this kept me awake and going. So it's good to like have the time to keep keep chatting, you know.

Liam 1:06:26

Sometimes linking up with people is kind of tough. So I'm already like just just really enjoying this. Like this is great for my morning. Podcast kind of pushes you to kind of go into those different parts of your brain and try to explain things in detail that's tangible for a mass audience, you know. And uh I love that feeling. So yeah, I'm I'm kind of just chilling, you know. I'm I'm good to to talk. And uh, I think one would be a good idea for for you if you did do longer podcasts. Like if you say you put it out an episode that was two and a half, three hours. You I like how you list the topics, that's sick. You could even do thumbnails each topic. Hey, maybe maybe it's like this whole conversation, but they're really interested in this one component. You could just put thumbnails in and be like, oh, this is where they start talking about marathon running, or this is where they start talking about whatever, you know, that could be something.

Tom 1:07:26

No, that's I do everything to basically a professional standard, but that's one thing I don't do that maybe I should I only get like you know 50, 100 downloads, so I'm like, I don't know how worth it it is. If people want that, then you know I'll definitely take the time to do that. I never knew how much people use those thumbnails and if if it was gonna be worth it, but yeah, that's a good point.

Liam 1:07:48

I know when I'm watching, like uh, you know, I'm getting some content where like I'm on my phone and I'm I'm watching some like pornographic videos. I really appreciate thumbnails. Oh my god. I'm like, oh, the acting in porn is pretty bad. I'd rather just find this thumbnail that skips to the good part, you know. I don't know. Sorry, I didn't mean to say that, but I thought it'd be funny.

Marathon Running

Tom 1:08:17

No, that's hilarious. I'll I'll keep it in if you don't care. When I changed it from drive fitness to be drive, I want this to feel like more just like the Tom Driver show. And putting fitness in the title made it seem like people are strictly coming here for fitness advice, but I I do like the just the casual whatever, you know. Oh yeah, I like combos like that too. I have a good ability to like have a casual conversation and then be like, yo, what's the meaning of life and shit? You know, I'm I'm getting pretty good at slipping that in. Okay, let's talk about let's talk about running because I've actually I told you I always wanted to to interview someone who's run a marathon. So um I'm just gonna clear the way for the conversation. You told me that you ran two marathons in college and you just ran one like two or three weeks ago, right? So, you know, you're experienced and you got a fresh you get a fresh experience too from right, like a less than a month ago. Yeah.

Liam 1:09:11

Oh yeah, yeah. That that that race is like, I mean, I've I've since recovered, but it it takes you around two weeks to fully recover from a marathon. But it was yeah, around three weeks ago, I I did the Philadelphia marathon.

Tom 1:09:23

I bet, man. So okay, first of all, like why, why? Why why did you decide to run a marathon?

Liam 1:09:30

So it first kind of started when I was in when I was in college. I was a pretty big runner in high school, high school, and I got recruited to run at my college, amongst like a few other colleges. And I got closer to the time to go to the school, you know, go get on the cross-country track team and start running. And I was thinking about it and I was like, I'm like, I don't want to run. I'm burnt out from running. And if I feel burnt out now, how am I gonna feel when I'm in college when I have that added curriculars of of like a pretty tough like program, like the the nursing program and stuff. So I was like, it's gonna be running and studying, like that's all it's gonna be. So I stopped running uh completely for like my freshman sophomore year. I took a break and then when I did start running, I I would just go out and I wouldn't bring a watch. I didn't have a goal pace in time, I didn't have a goal time or mileage. I just I just went to run to try to gain that fulfillment, like to try to just enjoy it for what it was, uh, put less pressure on myself. So I started doing that and I started running. And a lot of my running in high school was super fast paced. I'll do the 800, which is a half mile to a two-lap sprint on the track, and then I did five Ks and I was running in like you know, sub-fives, like pretty fast. And like they you feel so uncomfortable when you do those races and when you're doing speed workouts. So when I got back into running, I just started doing distance, I just started going really far and you know, not a pace that feels uncomfortable or like I'm gonna keel over and die. I just I just kept going and going. And then I'm trying to think really where it kind of stemmed from. I think I was just getting my mileage up and I was super active. And I'm such a goal-oriented person. I love to when I'm when I'm working out, I love fitness, but what drives me the most is training for something. So I realized my mileage was getting up, and I was like, I mean, no one's really doing this that I know. I was like, I think I'm gonna like try to do a marathon, and kind of just came out of the blue, and then I just started doing a ton of research on it, and that was like a pretty big focus. My my junior year.

Tom 1:11:56

Um okay, so wait, when you decided, okay, my miles are getting up there, I should do this. What number are you at? Like 10 miles, 12 miles? What were you naturally at when you decided to go for the marathon?

Liam 1:12:08

Yeah, so like a few days a week, I was running like between five and seven miles each run. And then once a week I would run a long run. Each week I would add one or two miles. I was getting up to I got up to mile, I think around mile 14. When I after that, I was like, you know, I mean, if I can just do a half marathon and and you know, feel all right, I might as well just like try to do a full one. And I I remember coming into most of my friends where there's tracking cross-country kids, and I I like went to the dining hall and I was eating lunch with them, and I'm like sweat, like my whole shirt is there's not a single dry part on my shirt. I'm just it looks like someone poured a you know bucket of water on me. My buddy's like, you know, how far did you run? And I was like, I just did like 14. And he's like, dude, we're like, we're not even doing that on the on the track across the country too. He's like, Why are you doing? And then and that kind of like sparked. I was like, I should probably just put this towards something and and then train for something, you know. But I was around like, yeah, mile 14 was a long run after that. I was like, I should uh just keep going and try to do a marathon.

Tom 1:13:16

Yeah, you're fucking crazy, man. Because like I was gonna ask, how did you push it to that next level? But you were already 14 is up there, dude. Just for like casual. I'm just doing this for fun. I guess you ran in college or in high school, so this is just kind of like caked into who you are, your identity, right? We were talking about that earlier, but this is just caked into your identity, I can tell, you know.

Liam 1:13:39

Yeah, I've really liked running the freeness of it, the euphoria, getting done a hard run, bonding with other people running with you. I really, really liked. I got a little burnout in high school, and then I kind of uh that flame got re like it re-sparked for me around my junior year, but it's definitely like something that'll always be with me, that's for sure. Until my knees go and hips and stuff.

Tom 1:14:06

But you know that that can happen, man. It's it's rough. I've I've known some runners that got injured, it sucks. But um, yeah, dude, I was a big soccer player in high school, so I had to have really good cardio for that, and I kind of missed that in some capacity. I was running like five or six miles about a year ago, and then I switched back into focus on lifting again, so I'm bulking now. It's not for my body the way I look or anything. Like, I don't I'm happier when I'm running, at least or playing so I I might want to play pick up soccer again or something, but when I'm when I'm running in some capacity, I feel like it keeps me so much more balanced. Where like lifting, if you don't run lifting, like it you can be kind of unhealthy and like lift a lot, you know. I'm saying it's not the same, it's not the same at all, you know.

Liam 1:14:55

Yeah, you I mean you're you're building those muscles and they're pretty explosive, depending, you know, you're doing you know a lot more about lifting than me, but you know, you're powerlifting, whatever, and then you get yoked and you're so inflexible, and but you never do any kind of cardio, you like go up like a few flights of stairs and you're like huffing and puffing, and dude, you're at the gym every day. It doesn't really seem like this is productive for your overall health, you know.

Tom 1:15:22

But yeah, I think running it like flushes your system in a certain way. If I don't do cardio, I'll go sit in the sauna, and that kind of does the same thing. But there's something important about especially if you ever like you know drink or or smoke like any any um toxin, like running will just flush that shit out of you. And if you don't run and and sweat and like get your heart rate up and and and kind of do a physical activity to that level, it doesn't cycle cycle all the bad shit out of you. And I think it stays in you and kind of like weighs you down. I think something like snow snowboarding or surfing is great, but you can glide on a snowboard and you can it won't it won't really flush your system the way like even just like a two-mile run will, you know?

Liam 1:16:06

Yeah, the freeness, run because you you know, because you can. If if anything else, just run because you're you you're able to. Not everyone can, but yeah, flushing out your system, getting that heart rate up. One of the best things to kind of decrease those things weighing down on you and and your uh your life is is pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. So when you're running, it's it's pretty uncomfortable sometimes.

Tom 1:16:30

Yeah, I hate it. I hate it.

Liam 1:16:32

Yeah, it's it's it's like I talk to people about it, and I I talk to a lot of different people, different uh skill sets and experience running, and I I I will never I don't give a hoot, how much or how little you're like, you don't really care, but I always try to put it into layman's terms, and and I get it. I'm like in the beginning, when you're getting in shape, there's like parts when you're running where you just feel like you're dying the whole time. You're just like, man, I literally just feel like I'm dying the whole time. And then eventually, once you're in shape and you're running, that's when running gets more exciting. When you're in shape and you're able to run three to five miles and it's not really that big of a deal, you let your mind wander and you get your heart rate up, and then it allows for your resting heart rate to be lower. And having a low resting heart rate that's so good for your mental health, you know, it decreases your anxiety and a lot of stuff like that.

Tom 1:17:28

You know, bringing tying this into podcasting, when I'm out of shape, I have to listen to like a podcast or something super distracting to get past those first couple miles, dude. Um, maybe certain like EDM songs too, like some epic. If it's not the right audio experience, bro, I just I can't, I would just go home. Literally cannot do it.

Liam 1:17:45

Yeah, dude. It's I like uh it's kind of funny. You you might think I'm like a psychopath after I tell you this, but I did two marathons in college, one junior year, one senior year. My senior year, I I did so much better than my junior year, because you know it's your first one, big trial and error. But when I ran, I did not when I was training for it, I didn't listen to any music. Well I didn't listen to anything the whole time. Yeah, which is now I every time I I run to the point that if I don't bring my headphones, I might not run, you know. Like now I always listen to usually music. Uh sometimes I'll listen. If it's a long run, I'll listen to like a podcast sometimes. But uh but yeah, I did a lot. Majority of my training was nothing, which is I think I know it's it that's bizarre.

Tom 1:18:37

Well, so you you like to run outside, right? And and I usually run on a treadmill. Uh, running on a treadmill with no music is actually insane. Like you're just listening to like thump thump thump, and you're just like staring at a wall, it's so boring, and you're hearing like other people like grunt and stuff in the background. I feel like if you're outside, it's more manageable outside. You're just more like you can listen to nature, it's not just the same scenery and sounds, like it's changed as you you know go through your run, it it's changing stuff, and like it's just it's not as stagnant and boring as like treadmill running.

Liam 1:19:10

So for sure.

Tom 1:19:11

I think you're not as insane as if you told me you trained for a marathon on a treadmill with no headphones. Yeah, that's true. That's a good point for sure. You must be familiar with a runner's high, right? Yeah, what is that like in your experience?

Liam 1:19:27

People talk about it in a lot of different ways, and I have so many running friends over the years, and like a lot of people that don't run talk more about the runner's high than people that do run, and then it kind of gets yeah, it kind of gets me as part, you know, like they're like, Oh, you run, you might get runner's high. And I'm just like, I don't really know, but I can tell you some of my experiences that I think might feel like a runner's high. Um I don't know, I don't know if you're supposed to feel it during your run or whatever, but a lot of times when I finish a run and that sense of accomplish accomplishment kind of paired up with just feeling like you know, when you're when you're absolutely done, you know, you're not throwing your legs as far, you're just walking now. It just feels good, you know. You kind of just feel like you're floating, it feels more still, it's it feels more quiet, it feels like life's kind of moving slowly. Could be a few minutes, it could be like 20, 30 minutes. When I finished my race three weeks ago, I was like crippled. I was like, I couldn't, I like couldn't do anything, but I felt amazing. It was I I thought I was gonna like cry. Like I felt like I was just gonna start crying because I I accomplished the race and I ran pretty well and I didn't give up. And there was people that came out and supported me. That's the runner's high eye experience is that stillness and feeling everything. And then sometimes during a race, I don't know if this is runner's high or what, but like during a race, like sometimes you have it, sometimes you don't, and like those times where you're just feeling it that day and you're able to kick it into an additional gear and pass people near the finish line and stuff. That I think that absolutely gives you kind of like a euphoric boost of feeling like invincible, feeling like you got this strength and this power that other people in the same race don't have. And you're kind of they're dying, you're kind of feeding off of them, like falling apart. That's giving you more energy. And it's kind of vice versa. When you get in a race, you'd much rather be passing someone than getting past. If you're passing someone, that's going to boost your feeling, you know. When you get past, you're like, fuck, that guy just passed me. I'm slowing down, this isn't looking good. And then more people pass you, and it kind of chips away at you, you know.

Tom 1:21:47

Yeah, that would that would drive me insane if I've already been running for such a long time and someone's passing me in the last stretch, especially a race that length, you know. Oh, yeah, for sure. But yeah, I feel like I'm the type of person that doesn't run much, so I do talk about the runner's high a little bit because I've only hit that point a couple times and it was like crazy. But I guess I guess for you that's more of like a standard, you know, because I think the runner's the runner's high is when you for me was when I finally could pass a certain moment, like five or six miles that I never could, and then I felt better than I had the previous five miles, probably because I wasn't in the best shape, right? Or I just wasn't used to doing that. So you probably are like always in the runner's high, and therefore you're not as like amazed by it, you know. Yeah, dude.

Liam 1:22:34

I'm just always high.

Tom 1:22:38

It reminds me of um the pumping iron movie where Arnold Schwarzenegger, he's like, Oh, in the in the I'm coming in the gym and I go home and I'm coming, I'm always coming.

Liam 1:22:48

Yeah, I've heard that one a few times. That was pretty funny.

Tom 1:22:53

Yeah, okay. Wait, so just specifically, what are your marathon times? Like, what was your most recent time?

Liam 1:23:00

So, my most recent one, I didn't hit the time I wanted to, but it was a PR personal record. I ran a 255 this past so two hours 55 minutes this this past one. Whoa, and then yeah, which was I mean, hey, I broke three hours, that was my ultimate goal. I was happy.

Tom 1:23:18

Yeah, was that your was that your first time breaking three hours?

Liam 1:23:21

Yes, yeah, it was nice. So that was I was stoked. I was I was really excited. Uh a lot of my training runs gave me the confidence that I could run a decent amount faster, but I I like to focus on no matter what, it's a PR, you can't be mad about that. And there was times in that race, the last six miles was so hard. It was so hard, and I knew I was dying. My body was starting to shut down and just not do well, but I I knew I could have fell apart more. I was like, you know, you're falling apart, but you're still moving, you're still pushing, you could absolutely fall apart so much more. So I I give myself credit for like keeping my head in it when the real race starts, which is pretty much like the last six.

Tom 1:24:09

So, what is your mentality when you're starting to have those fears of like I might not make this, I might not finish, or I might not finish at the same pace, you know? What mental mentally, what gets you what gets you through that? What pushes you past that point of giving up?

Liam 1:24:26

Yeah, so there's a few things, and I was really lucky enough. I did the Philadelphia marathon. There was 30,000 people there that were racing, just racing. And then the whole a lot of the course was lined with these people with different signs, like you know, handing out water, beer, like a lot of different things, just like trying to just stoke people up. And there's people cheering for you. You don't know them, you know, they're cheering for everyone because they're just they're just trying to get you through the race as well. So I you kind of harness that energy, you know, the the environment, the vibe of like everyone being out there. There's countless times during that race when I was like, you know, kind of just doing my thing, running, feeling good, feeling all right, or maybe it was on the back stretch when I was starting to fall apart. But I seen someone sign and they're smiling, they're cheering, you know, they're getting getting hype. And uh just I just smiled so big. And when you smile like that, it just releases things to like help you get through it. So when you're when you're smiling, that that helps you, you know, it's kind of like fake it till you make it. When you grin, it it causes you to naturally. Yeah, there it is. There's a big smile right there. It causes you to like feel a little good. So that so the environment's one thing, and then another thing is such a mental game. You know, I'm I'm in my head and I'm trying to stay positive. So to kind of give you an idea of how that race went, the first 20 miles I ran around a 615, 616 pace, right where I wanted to run. I was running pretty good. The last six miles, I started running at like, I think my average pace was around 830 or something. So in those moments when I started to die, it was like, you know, I'm getting past. I want to stop. I see some guy that I'm running past that he's doing this whole walking forward, backwards, side to side, like he looks lost at like a freaking fair. He did not look okay. And I was like, oh man, like I'm dying, but he's really that guy's falling apart over there. So it's just trying to stay positive and saying, keep on going. One more mile, you know, just keep moving your feet. You're falling apart, but you can you can just hold on. You have that fitness, you have that training. People are passing you, but but that's okay. You can still get a pretty good time if you just just hold on. So it's just like just trying to stay positive in those moments and not letting uh those thoughts of wanting to stop and and people passing you take over and control your your actions, you know.

Tom 1:27:00

So we talked about death and fear a little bit um already today. To continue that idea, is it as serious as feeling like I might die? Because when you talk about that guy stumbling around, it made me realize you could obviously snowboarding is like dangerous in a different way, but like you could just die from a marathon, or like you could push yourself to a point where you're injured for the next six months, even if it's not death. Do you feel the presence of literal death? I don't know what is that what does that feel like to be pushing forward in the face of what feels like it could be death?

Liam 1:27:39

When you when you're in those moments, when you're on that back stretch and stuff, you're feeling this extreme exhaustion. And what makes it tough and difficult is you know, we've talked about lifting a little bit before. And I've heard like, you know, power power lifters or like people that lift a lot, they they'll say this phrase, they say, you know, they say sometimes they say cardio. For they say cardio is for pussies, people will say that, and you probably heard that before. But when you lift, you get a pump in, you rest between your sets, and you know, when you're lifting, it's like, oh, you know, when you throw that weight on your back and you're squatting and you're going for a PR and you don't know if you're gonna get back up, there's kind of like a moment in time where you're like, like I might like freaking die. You know, this is a ton of weight on me. I might my body might just like my spine might explode. But for for running and cardio, it's good, you don't have that rest. You're consistently throughout the run. You're like, this is this impending doom that's occurring every single moment where I'm going. Yeah. I mean, you kind of feel like uh not exactly like you're dying, but it's it's extreme exhaustion, and you can develop a heart arrhythmia, like you're you know, your heart will not beat correctly, and it can kick you into some sort of arrhythmia that could you might have to go to the hospital. My buddy, he was doing a half marathon, he had to go to the hospital after the race and get things kind of situated. And that guy that I was telling you about that was walking forwards, backwards, left and right, he just looked lost. I saw him after the race and I was like, hey man, like how's it going? He's like, Oh man, I've really died back there. Like, I'm I'm fine. I was like, dude, I'm just I'm happy you're all right. It you know, it looked pretty concerning, but it it is like you're putting your body through just so much, and and different body types can take that on more readily than others, but it's like mind over matter. But some people push it so much in their mind that uh their their body can like it can get to a point where it can have a lasting injury or they might have to go to the hospital, they might pass out, you know, stuff like that.

Tom 1:29:49

So I'm thinking I'm still thinking about this idea of death. I don't know, it just kind of is making me realize how much a race like this becomes like almost like a whole lifetime. You know how like sometimes like a drug trip or a lot of artists try to make an album feel like a whole lifetime. Mac Miller always tried to make his albums kind of feel like birth, not birth, but like the beginning of a life, and then by the end of the album, it feels like you know the end of a life, you know. And there's a lot of things, yeah, there's a lot of mini moments in life where it feels like a lifetime. But this race, running a race like this, the presence of you feel like you're dying for the last six miles. Well, that's kind of how it feels like, probably to be like 60 years old, 70 years old, 80 years old, you know? And like obviously when you start it off, you're just so full and like optimistic and excited. And and we were talking about um death earlier, and how you know the best way to go out is with joy, or at least what'd you say, uh no regrets, you know what I'm saying? So I guess my two questions are uh, are you able to like run at the last couple miles in the face of what feels like death with a sense of joy, or maybe has like certain races felt joyous the last couple miles and certain races haven't? Have you gotten bitter before? We were saying you shouldn't get bitter, but have you experienced maybe more of that before in a race? And then also when you have these moments in life that they feel like a lifetime, I feel like you walk away with more wisdom, like you almost lived a life. Do you feel that presence of wisdom that you've gained through this like mini blip of a life that you lived in these races? You know?

Liam 1:31:30

Yeah, no, for sure. I've so I've had um experiences where I'm running, you know, like not that great. And then maybe I I like throughout the race, I I I can't really pick it up. And I'm I'm starting to get down on myself mentally. Uh, there's times where you know your day-to-day life, you you don't feel as equipped to get through the day than others. Some days, some days life's just easy. You just get through it, you crush it, you're good socially, you're good at your job, you're everything's clicking, everything's firing. That compared to running, you'll have days where things don't click as much. And I I've definitely my first marathon I ever did. There was a point in the race where I walked a little, and I had never walked in a race in my whole life. And when I did that, that took a that was a big impact on me. And and then I started, I was being pretty negative, I was pretty bitter. My dad was there, he was cheering me on. He's like, I just you know, pick it up or whatever. And I was like, it's kind of rude. I was like, shut up, dad. I was like not happy about it, man. I was not happy, and it was just my perception of what was going on, and it wasn't great. And then piggybacking off of that. My second marathon I did uh was my senior year in college, and I was so well equipped for this race. And the last mile I ran in like the fives or something, I was crushing it. And I I remember coming through then with just joy. You know, I was I was just happy to be there. There was no point in the race where I was really broken down. You hit like a wall, they say. I hit the wall around 22, and then I just I kept going and I felt fine. And I just remember finishing like having that feeling like uh that wasn't that bad, which usually when you have that feeling, it's like I could have ran faster. But in that race, there's definitely like I I finished with joy. And uh and the last race in Philly, so many people out there, people came out and supported me. It felt like a lifetime that last mile, that last two miles, it felt it felt like the the longest mile or two of my life. And uh going through that that intense discomfort because of I'm pushing myself so much, uh it makes those seconds just click by slower. You know, and uh coming away from that and finishing that that definitely uh just makes me feel accomplished, makes me feel like I can I can do anything, I can run even faster. And then it and then it's it's it's truly like kind of an emotional experience too. Because you just you just you have to be locked in the whole time. You gotta stay focused the whole race. As soon as you lose focus for a little bit, your time starts slowing down, or you know, you start thinking about some random shit. Definitely just gives me like gives me a lot of positive energy and stuff. Like I can do that, I can you know, I can do anything. You can just ran like a marathon, you know, and people are like, Oh, it's like running a marathon, you know. But being able to say that you did it's kind of it's cool, you know.

Tom 1:34:40

Yeah. First of all, random mini question. What do you listen to music during the race, or is that no, you're more tuned in to like the crowd and the people?

Liam 1:34:51

So I have done all my training this time around with music and podcasts and stuff. So when you get closer to your race, you don't want to rock the boat too much. You want to keep a consistent diet of what you've been doing the whole time, how you've been running, your like little nuances, like you know, I'm listening to music the whole time during the training. I should probably race with music, stuff like that. So I did listen to music. I actually made a playlist with the exact time that I wanted to get. So when the music turned off, I realized what time I was at, which was kind of cool.

Tom 1:35:26

Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, you're probably shitting yourself. Like when the time turns off, you're still in the race. You're like, oh no.

Liam 1:35:34

Oh, yeah. I was I was like, I still got two miles left. I was like, I'm pretty close. It was kind of nice. The at towards the end, I was happy that the music stopped because it was kind of when you're discomf when you're uncomfortable, like you know, when you're holding plank or like doing one of those static exercises that are just tiring, you know, or like stretching for whatever reason, you don't want to be bothered, and like things irritate you a little bit easier because you're uncomfortable, you know. So the music was kind of starting to be uh a little bit more annoying than helpful. And and when it turned off, I was like, Word, I'm just I can hear my breathing, I can heal hear my feet, I can hear the crowd, whatever.

Tom 1:36:13

And then just kind of brought it home. Well, well, plus I feel like you want to dissociate a lot from the race during the longer portions, but the last two miles, you mean you probably want to be more in the moment and like like you said, connect connect with people who are watching the race and and just remember the moment for for the memory too, a little bit stronger than the middle of the race. Okay, let me just dissociate and like not remember this boring, like middle 10 miles, you know.

Liam 1:36:42

Sure, yeah, absolutely. Like that's distraction is so helpful for painful situations, you know, whether it's running mentally, whatever. But um, so you're given in in the beginning of the race, you have your gauge of of energy level, you have a full tank of energy, and then you have a whole full tank of mental stress. So when you're kind of just like cruising in those first 10-15 miles, you you want to get those miles and get them in, get them fast, but you you want to be like, this isn't causing me severe mental strain, you know. This is still the beginning, you know, it's uh it's not a sprint, Samaritan, but it's like literally, literally. But then, like when I knew when I was getting to the part where my muscles started tensing up, and and it just started getting like my breathing and heart rate was fine, it's just my muscles tensed up. This is when I'm kicking in that mental shred. This is when the race begins, and that was around mile 1920. And it was like, you got you got it, you gotta stay on it, and yeah, yeah, just try to just bring it home without falling apart too much, really.

Tom 1:37:56

This has been good because I I keep straying away from what I planned to ask. Like, I plan to ask you stuff like what'd you eat, and you know, boring ass questions like that, but like obviously, you know me, like I'm I'm being pulled into like the spiritual conversation here because when you said it's not a race or it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. I just realized, dude, you're doing the thing that is a metaphor for everything else in life, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, like how does that that's a spiritual experience? Remember, we were talking on our hike at the bachelor party about the you know, we were joking that you were the physical guide, I was a spiritual guide, right? And like, you know, because you were telling us where to walk, but like in the spiritual realm, I was always worried about the story of the walk, you know what I'm saying? Because that's where I think the spirit takes form, and certain like symbols and metaphors, these things like uh 26 miles is a marathon, it becomes the symbol of it's not just accomplishing a goal, it's like the symbol for accomplishing a goal. Like, you know, I'm saying, like it represents like a long snowboarding day. You would be like, Wow, man, that was as long as a marathon, you know. I'm saying, but if you ran uh if you ran half a marathon, you wouldn't be like, Well, that was as long as a snowboarding day. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like these things, yeah, they they exist in the zeitgeist, and and but like the zeitgeist is more of like what's going on now. Like a marathon exists in like the hu the story of humanity, it has a place in it, you know. And like you're yeah, you're talking about death and things like that, and how like people won't remember you, you know what I'm saying? But people will always remember a marathon, maybe not forever, but for for thousands and hundreds of thousands of years. Marath a marathon will be a unit of of of not just distance, but like an accomplishment, you know what I'm saying? And and people might not remember you, but you get to tap into something that is like spiritually like in the story of humanity, you know what I'm saying? So I don't know if that's a question or just a statement, but like, what does it feel like? What does it feel like to tap into that bigger spiritual thing that humans have always done, you know?

Liam 1:40:03

The marathon to go to the history, I guess it was like someone ran from Greece to somewhere else 26.2 miles away, and I don't know why they made it a race, but they're like, Yeah, we should do it, and then and then you know, humans weren't really made to do that, but but they did that that time, and then it stuck, and they've been doing it forever. And a marathon in a in a few ways, or like some people would say, it's like kind of like a pinnacle, like one of the pinnacles of an accomplishment, you know. I don't know, like attaching yourself to something bigger than you is you know, can be done in athletics with that race, like that is absolutely like a pinnacle, like a huge accomplishment for people in the running world and people outside of the running world. They respect it, they think it's awesome, it's great. And similarly, like you can attach yourself to different things that that thing is bigger than you and will keep a bigger legacy for you. You know, like you go to school at Harvard. Guess what? That's like an institution that's so prestigious, gonna be around forever. You are like kind of attached to that really big thing, causing you to have a bit more of a legacy because it's something bigger than you, you know. So that's what I kind of feel like. I kind of feel like I'm in this group of people, you know, there's thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions, yeah, millions of people that do it, but I get to be a part of that club, you know, whether I ran fast, slow, or whatever, you have that connection to that bigger accomplishment and and that bond, you know.

Tom 1:41:41

When I think about God or the divine or whatever, I like to think of it sometimes not as just like a person up in the sky, you know, disconnected, but more of the universal consciousness, the accumulation of all of our minds, you know what I'm saying? Like everybody, you know. Sometimes when I like talk on a podcast, I know there's other people that are gonna listen to this later. And I'm not just asking you questions that I want to hear, but I'm trying to like fit into like the universal consciousness and ask you questions that everyone might want to hear, or that would just translate into good conversation. And then sometimes I feel like I'm I'm channeling something bigger than myself, you know? And so when you're running this race that hundreds of thousands of people have run before you, I feel like you're probably tapping into a bigger energy than just you, you know what I'm saying? I'm getting excited talking about it. So, do you notice your thought patterns and your emotions? You were kind of talking about the emotions you go through running normally when you were running the race, when you were doing the 26 miles, especially when you get into like you know, the last six miles that are that are you just haven't done that before? Do you notice that your thought patterns and your emotions change? Like, do you start to think of ideas? Like I would assume, like you would if you ever had an epiphany or you know, something like that, like an idea that just felt like it came from the beyond, those kind of moments might be a time where you could channel something bigger than yourself. Did you notice your thought patterns change or your emotions change at a certain point in the race? And and and what'd you think about?

Liam 1:43:11

Yeah, so uh it's just like a lot of that race. I was hitting the times, the the mile splits that I wanted to, and that was just boosting my confidence, making it better and better. And then seeing other people I was I was running with. Sometimes you see someone next to you in front of you, behind you. You kind of think about what what kind of training, what training looked like for them. How old are they? What did they do? Where are they from? People come from all over the place. I met someone before the race who said, I just flew in from Aruba. You know, I'm trying to run like in the 230s, and I was like, holy shit, dude, that's crazy. Like you came all the way from Aruba. He's like, Oh, yeah, I'm not used to these temperatures. It was like 40 degrees in the morning. And I was like, Oh, my friends just went to Aruba on vacation. So that's like kind of interesting. Like he came to he came traveled to Philadelphia to run a race, but uh to answer the the higher consciousness or like getting additional energy, emotions, or feelings. Um, I think a lot of it is kind of what I was saying about the bonding and strength in in numbers. You know, if you you're more inclined to get a workout in if if you're held accountable by a workout buddy, you know. So you you run, you lift with him, whatever. I'm in this race with these thousands of people, and there's not that many, there's not much distance between each people, there's less of a distance. If there was like not many people in the race at all, uh when the race starts going, you get a lot more spread out. So I I think uh I gain energy from all the people. My first two marathons, there was only four or five hundred people, and this past one was 30k. So that's like something, and like you guys are all like you're in it together, you're bonding through the pain. They say a lot of uh like training, like you know, you play basketball, you you do whatever. At the end of the practice, they do these things called gassers or suicides, you know, whatever it may be. They say a lot of that doesn't really do much for your fitness, actually. At that point in time, it doesn't do a lot for your fitness. But what it does do is it makes you closer with your teammates, you're bonding through one more suicide, one more gasser. Like you guys are in that uncomfortable situation where you're pushing your body together. If you're just by yourself, maybe you wouldn't push it as hard, but you know what? They're doing it too. I can do it, you know. So I think uh I'm definitely gaining strength through all the people there. I I didn't really have when I was coming down that home stretch, I couldn't think of anything besides finishing. I like my mind was literally just I can't even think about a single thing besides just like finish line.

Tom 1:46:03

So your brain wave is just like just do it, you can do it, you can do it. It's just it gets more simplistic at times.

Liam 1:46:09

Oh, for sure. You like you kind of get they say you should do like a lot of mantras when you run, and when you do a long distance race, like my my first mantra in the first like 10 miles was light it, light and easy. I think I said I said light, fat fast and fast and light. That's what I want to say because it tell myself I feel light and I feel fast, and this is easy, you know, whatever. And then when I started to hit the middle, I just started saying to myself, it's kind of weird. I just started saying, like meat, meat and potatoes, you know, this is the body work, you know, meat and potatoes, this is the body work of the race. And then I think at the end, it might have been just like don't fall apart, keep moving, die, don't, don't, don't die too much. And like, because you you you're like your brain's so you're so exhausted, you can't really get into I'm not like thinking about the metaverse while I'm like 10 miles. I can't think about anything, man. I'm just like one more mile, but when those mantras can be helpful though, that's for sure.

Tom 1:47:13

It's funny thinking of me who's never run probably more than 10 miles or like even eight, and then I'm trying to imagine what you were thinking about in the moment, and I'm just so wrong because I'm like, I'm like, what's the meaning of life? And you're like meat and potatoes. Yeah, but but um I I think in Buddhism, the ultimate goal is to not have any thoughts, right? It's just to kind of have like a blank mindset, you know? So even if it's just like repeating meat and potatoes or like you can do it, right? I feel like you're having a deep, deep meditation through all that process, you know? So, like, how does how does that feel? Maybe not right after you finish. Well, how does it feel right after you finish? But then also how does it feel like in the next week or two? Do you feel like a new person? Are you born again? Like, what is the what is the overall mindset after after going through that kind of physical and and mental meditation?

Liam 1:48:07

It's kind of cool when I when I finish for about a a week or two, that accomplishment just holds on to you longer. You you still feel like, man, I got that done. Now it's like three weeks out, and I still feel happy I did it. I feel stoked that I like had worked hard, trained, and and ran it. And and it just, I mean, it's it sticks with you. I think. I don't know, it's just like putting yourself through extreme exhaustion, putting yourself through things that try yourself mentally, it just boosts your ability to try to get after a goal that you might think is unobtainable. What comes naturally for me in this world is athleticism. I can I run far. That doesn't bother me too much. I I can run pretty far and at like a decent pace and and and be okay with it. Uh some people can sit down and write a paper in like a half hour. I can't do that. That's not my expertise. That's not where I uh excel in. But being able to do those things and accomplishments that I do excel in and do come naturally kind of helped me uh point my interest, you know, it kind of gives me a little bit more of like a boost to to do some of those things that don't come as naturally. Because it was like I did that, I did that big thing. Why, why can't I sit down and write a paper? Why can't I, you know, go back to school and and get my uh additional degree? Because I can, and it's it's all mental. You know, physically you know, physical event, it's a lot of mental strength. Or just sitting down and doing something, a lot of mental strength. So it's just I think it gives me additional confidence with to tackle many things in the world.

Tom 1:49:56

Not the only way, but the the quickest and probably the most pure way. To a boost in confidence is through over overcoming a physical challenge, right? I mean, they have like hackathons for coders and stuff like that, where you know it'll inspire a lot of of good work if you force someone to do something in a certain time frame. But nothing, nothing like overcoming a physical challenge really unlocks you and really is like a pure confidence booster that you can go then apply in other areas, you know.

Liam 1:50:26

Oh, for sure. I was um chatting with one of my friends yesterday about it, and she is in law school, so she's cranking out papers, she has lectures, she has all these things, and those things just don't feel as accomplishing or like they're not as like tangible for me in comparison. I'm just a regular ass adult now, but I get stoked when I go to the grocery store, do all my meal prep for the week, get a workout in, you know, um go snowboarding. Like when I do like all those things in a day, that's so tangible for me. It's like so much different than when you're kind of sitting down, uh working on a paper all day or studying. Because you you don't really even know what you have to show for it until you get your grade. And like, and it's not that exciting, you know.

Tom 1:51:18

Yeah. If you get yourself into physical shape, right, and then you go and you sit down and you do some work, you know, you can feel pretty good about it no matter what level of work it is. But if you're doing a high level of uh stationary work and then you're and you're really happy about that, but like you're physically out of shape, you're not gonna be 100% happy because that's gonna bog you down to a certain degree, you know. Whereas like if your fitness is in check and you and you're challenging yourself and you're feeling good about it, I feel like it's easier to not let anything else upset you, like not let whatever is going on with your career or just any any of that other type of challenge upset you the same way. Whereas like, I don't know, being physically unhealthy, it's it's you're there's always gonna be something like in your way from reaching your full potential and and not unhealthy because some everyone's at a different level with their fitness. But I would say if you're not currently making progress, you can be 500 pounds, and as long as like you're working towards 480 pounds, you can feel really good about where you are, you know. But like if you're in the decline, your body holds emotions and energy in a certain way that you can't release any other way, except for you know, a physical challenge, like a marathon, you know?

Liam 1:52:39

Yeah, that's yeah, I I mean I agree wholeheartedly. Um, when you're when you're in some sort of shape or you're working towards something, and you know, those small bite-sized accomplishments. You wake up in the morning, you run a few miles, you wake up in the morning, you get your lift in. Guess what? It don't matter how the rest of your day went, you're already ahead of the game. You know, you you got those endorphins going, you you got more energy because you worked out, you already accomplished something before your your day fully started. So that's just a good way to kind of set the tone. But it what makes it, you know, the hard part is getting out of bed, doing that, staying consistent. You know, you like the uh the what's called the effects of it, you know. You you like the byproduct of of your hard work, but putting in the the work is is sometimes tough. And uh yeah, and just like being at a computer and then doing your stuff for me and like my ADD and I have a little bit of ADHD, that's why I'm I'm so active because I need to do those things. If if I have too much energy and I didn't run that day or exercise, my mind's gonna be all over the place when I'm trying to sit down and like do do work what I'm supposed to do. Like if I'm like pretty physically tired, my my brain is too tired to to wander to other places. It it kind of helps me just like lock in, get my work done.

Tom 1:54:08

So we're gonna we're gonna probably close up soon, right? Because I I've already had you for almost three hours. What's next for you? Are you what's the next goal? Are you gonna do another marathon? Are you gonna set yourself up with like a different type of physical challenge? You know, what's the plan?

Liam 1:54:25

Yeah, so the game plan right now, I'm I'm really gonna enjoy my snowboarding season. I plan on progressing a lot. I have a few different tricks I want to work on, but after that, towards the end, I really want to do an Iron Man, which is a whole different, you know, ball game. You know, you're running, swimming, biking. So that's that's my next goal. So I want to do an Iron Man and uh see how that goes.

Tom 1:54:55

That's crazy. Is that different than a triathlon, or is that the same thing?

Liam 1:54:59

So it's a triathlon, it's just like you know how uh a marathon is one of the long, you know, there's ultra marathons, people just run. The marathon is like pretty much the one of the longest races you'll run and people work towards. The triathlon is essentially the marathon, or the iron man is essentially the marathon of triathlons. It's uh a two and a half mile swim, you bike 110 miles, and then you finish by running a full marathon.

Tom 1:55:32

Oh my god. Well, have have you ever done a normal triathlon? Like just a okay, so you've done you've done a lesser version of that. Damn, dude. But that's that's definitely something you can't practice if you're up in the mountains, though, right?

Liam 1:55:48

No, not really. I mean, I I have gym memberships and stuff, and uh, you know, I can definitely run. And uh the YMCA has a pool and there's a stationary bike, but uh taking a little bit of a uh like a mental break from the intense training and just snowboarding, having fun. That's what I'm gonna kind of kind of do right now. And then once it's time to figure out what my like training is gonna look like, I'm I'm gonna have be that much more refreshed and like dialed in because I took a break and be able to do everything I want to do.

Tom 1:56:23

So is that kind of how you space it out? You do like really chill snowboarding in like the winter, chill surfing in the summer, and then you train for something like fall and spring?

Liam 1:56:35

In a lot of ways, yeah. So all my activities or all everything I do for fun essentially is active. I don't really watch much TV, I read books sometimes and stuff like that, but I'm not Netflix, Netflixing and stuff, which is kind of hard for people to wrap their head around because they're like, Oh, what kind of shows do you watch? And I'm just like, I don't, I don't watch shows, and and they're like, No, come on, what kind of shows? I'm like, dude, I don't I like hike mountains and go snowboarding and shit. That's like that's what I do for fun. So some of those activities they they keep me fit, like hiking a mountain, snowboarding, surfing, like, and I've I've ripped like as hard as I can. So, but it doesn't feel as tiring mentally as going to the gym and running, going to the gym and lifting, because it it's like those things are still fun, but surfing, snowboarding, and hiking up mountains, that's just like strictly fun, but it keeps me in shape. And then, like, once I'm out of that season, when the weather warms up in the spring is when I start putting mileage in because I get crazy spring fever, it gets warm out, and I just want to run around. So that's when I I usually end up pointing my focus towards some sort of long distance goal, is is when it starts to warm up outside, and then I have like spring all the way into fall, and fall is when uh you know the temps drop a good bit. I've been putting in my mileage or swim, whatever it may be, and I can run like really comfortably in like a little bit cooler weather and stuff. So that's and then in like uh in the winter, I'll just like lift, you know, work on my body mechanics and then you know, just play outside a lot.

Tom 1:58:14

Well, uh hey man, this sounds a little um corny, but I really mean it, man. This has been a life uh changing conversation for me because I've been doing uh personal training, you know, a couple of times a week, getting really uh fit, but I haven't really picked a big goal or challenge or activity outside of that. And like um, I think I'm ready for that. So, you know, I'm definitely gonna go seize the day, do something outside and start working towards either like a run or just something. I I want to, I maybe might I might do yoga on the beach, but like man, you definitely just inspired me to just go do more like active things, you know, just all around. Like it's so impressive. The the combination of things that you consistently do, man. Not a lot of people are living like this, like you said. And I uh man, I just I just love to love to hear it and love to talk to someone like you who can who can uh inspire me like that.

Liam 1:59:07

Thanks, man. I I really appreciate you talking with me and just uh complimenting me there. Like that I makes me feel awesome about everything. And I've really enjoyed talking to you. I like how your brain, you know, I I can see the way when you start thinking more into that spiritual realm and you you push myself to kind of think about those things that are a little less tangible, but it's like kind of like a higher power, kind of like what's going on in our brains. And um having these conversations allow me and you to get into topics and and things that I don't think I would regularly be doing, you know. Like the format of it kind of pushes yourself out of your element and it jogs my brain and makes me think of things that I haven't in a while or I I haven't really at all, which is cool. But thanks for having me, man. I appreciate it.

Tom 1:59:58

Yeah, dude, take it easy and and have a good day, man.

Liam 2:00:00

Thanks, you as well. Later, brother.