Charlie de Vocht: Solana Snakes & The Evolution of Power | #31

This is episode 31 of The Drive Program with guests, Charlie de Vocht. Charlie was the first person I knew who bought an NFT so I reached out to him for an interview and this was recorded in December 2021. 

We have a great conversation about different types of cryptocurrencies, his experience buying NFTs, and why he chooses to buy them on the Solana network. Specifically, we discuss a meme coin called Sammo, which he uses for yield farming. In the second half of the conversation, we talk about the 48 laws of power, history, warfare, and the metaverse. We discuss the evolution of power throughout history and how that might take shape in the future with decentralized power structures using web 3 technology. 

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Transcript

Tom 0:00

Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Drive Program. My name is Tom, and today my guest is Charlie DeVoe. Charlie has been on the podcast once before. He came on and talked about recovering from an injury all the way back, I think episode six. And this time he's come back on to talk mostly about crypto and NFTs. So Charlie was actually the first person I knew who bought an NFT. So I reached out to him for an interview, and this was recorded a while back, maybe in December. So some of the things we talk about might be a little bit dated. But either way, we have a great conversation about different types of cryptocurrencies, uh, his experience buying an NFT and why he chose to buy one. This is a good time to say that uh nothing in this podcast is actually financial advice. Alright, me and Charlie are just having a conversation, and we are not trying to make any recommendations to anybody, but we're just talking about Charlie's experience in the crypto world. So Charlie mostly likes to buy NFTs and different types of cryptocurrencies on the Solana network. Specifically, we discuss a meme coin called Samo, which he used for yield farming, so he can provide liquidity for people who are buying and selling, and that's one of the ways he makes a profit. At the second half of the conversation, we just start talking about kind of anything, but we end up talking about a book called The 48 Laws of Power, and we talk about history a little bit and warfare, and then we end up kind of talking about the metaverse at the very end. So we jump around a different a couple different topics, but sort of the theme is I guess the evolution of power throughout history over time and and sort of how that might take shape in the future with um decentralized uh power structures uh using web three technologies. So this was an awesome conversation. I love sitting down and talking to Charlie. It was great to see him over my winter break. And yeah, I really appreciate him sharing all of his experience in the the crypto sphere with us. So I hope you guys really enjoy this episode. This episode is sponsored by Mama Bama and the Mod Canna. They sell CBD products online and are offering a 15% discount to listeners of the podcast. CBD can help relieve anxiety, reduce pain and inflammation, improve sleep, and have many other positive health benefits. Personally, I take CBD gummies every day to manage my stress levels and to help me fall asleep. Go to the modcana.com to shop for CBD infused products like gummies, lotions, tinctures, and smokables. Please use code DRIVE DRIVE at checkout to support the podcast and receive a 15% discount. I'm going to provide some educational resources about C B D in the show notes, but if you are unsure if you should be consuming CBD, please consult with your doctor. Thanks everyone. This is episode 31 of the Drive Program with guest Charlie DeVoe. This is, yeah. Yeah, how does it feel just to be like an established adult living on your own outside of college? It doesn't feel any different, honestly.

Charlie 3:42

Just feels like you just, you know, you just kind of doing the same thing just in your own spot, which is cool. But you know, I'm still just a big kid at heart. It's nice. Yeah.

Tom 3:53

You've been kind of telling me today how do you like Arlington?

Charlie 3:56

Um, I I really like this area. Um, it's a little bit different than Clarendon. We're about about a mile and a half from Clarendon, so it's close enough if you want to hit the strip or go to the bar somewhere. What is this area? This this area, it's it's I mean, technically it's South Arlington. Okay. Uh, but it's right off um Columbia Pike, which kind of leads into Falls Church, Alexandria area. And you like to call it Gotham, right? Yeah, we call it Gotham around here because uh you can't leave this house without seeing something just absolutely crazy remarkable. Um I think the the top thing that I've seen, the one where I was like just straight Gotham moment. Um, my buddy George and I, who lives in this building, we take walks in the morning. You know, it's nice to wake up because we've, you know, jogged the mind a little bit. We went to the safe way to stop in to get some like quick little groceries, and there's a woman laying on the floor, and it's like probably 8.15 in the morning, you know, place just open. Woman laying on the floor, looking up at me with blood around her head. And she asked me what happened. And I'm looking at her, I'm looking at George, and I'm like, what is what is happening right now? And then there's you know, the employee is trying to take care of her, and she's asking me what happened, what happened? And I'm like, I don't know. I stay there for a second, and then you know, the paramedics come and they deal with it, so we go about our day. But that's just how it is around here. You leave this building, you leave, you go down the street, you see something all the time.

Tom 5:16

Yeah, bro, it's exciting though. Yeah, it is, it's fun. It's definitely like, you know, just more exposed to the world. And then and I feel like during the pandemic, it's not a bad thing because I'm kind of isolated like a lot, you know? Yeah. Bro, so we're not gonna talk about like fitness today, but me and Charlie, we just worked out before this, and I had never done this, but we did like a Spotify session, and like I was listening to his music the whole time. Like we both had our own headphones in, but jamming out to the same song at the same time. It was a pretty dope experience, dude.

Charlie 5:47

Yeah, I feel like it's a feature I just learned about, but it's pretty badass for gym sessions.

Tom 5:52

And I feel like for us, it's like something that we talked about five years ago when we used to lift a lot, and being like, I wish we could just sync up like that, and like now we finally can.

Charlie 6:01

Yeah. No, it's it's definitely sweet. Um you just gotta have the same use of case, right? Or at least go up with the same thing.

Tom 6:07

So, Charlie, one of the things we wanted to talk about today is crypto. Um, when did you first start getting into crypto? What was just like your experience, and yeah, what was the time frame?

Charlie 6:19

So uh I got into crypto when I was living at home because I had, you know, you have some extra money, you're not paying rent. Originally in the stock market, and I wanted to to expand and go into the crypto a little bit. So I invested in Chainlink a good amount of money back in November 2020. Okay. And then I kind of just monitored the my stock market gains versus my crypto gains, and I noticed the crypto one was just outperforming my stock market. So I started to kind of split it up 50-50 after that, buying some Ethereum, Chainlink, keeping it simple, keeping it small, but splitting it up. And then once the whole like Robin Hood GameStop AMC thing hit, and Robin Hood that had that big incident where they didn't allow anybody to invest or sorry, sell their their stock. They didn't provide liquidity for the for the people. So I thought that was the big red flag where I'm you know, I don't really want to be involved in this game because it's it's clearly tilted. In the stock market game? In the stock, at least not personally. You know, I I have 401k, I have investments that I don't really touch, but at least personally picking out and choosing stocks. I would I I was choosing to focus on one thing rather than split between two and half asset. So yeah, I basically slowly over time liquidated my uh stocks in Robinhood, just my personal stocks, and I would invest more and more in crypto. I became good friends with a lot of people who are very knowledgeable in crypto, and we had this big discourse ongoing group chats, uh uh discords.

Tom 7:41

What was like Bitcoin at or um Ethereum at like when you first started paying attention?

Charlie 7:46

Actually, it's funny. Yeah.

Tom 7:47

Do you remember that?

Charlie 7:48

So the first we talked about the first coin I've got was Chainlink. And I believe I can't say the exact price of that, but I've I put a good amount of money in it. And shortly after that, I bought Ethereum. And I remember I bought I wanted to buy one whole Ethereum just because I had you know the funds to do it at the time. And I remember the price was 1,097. That's how much about one Ethereum for. And that was in just before the new year of 2021, so 2020, December or something. Yeah, and I bought one whole Ethereum for just over a thousand bucks. So now it's like quadrupled. Yeah, and I mean it hit the all-time high like a month ago, around 4600, something like that. Damn. So that's a pretty good profit.

Tom 8:30

Yeah. I remember you okay, you said that your crypto was outperforming your stocks, right? Wasn't around this whole year of 2020 the year where Bitcoin really kind of took off and didn't hasn't it kind of leveled out? So Ethereum is not gonna quadruple in the next year the way it did for you in 2020. You know what I'm saying? Pro I mean it might double or something, but crypto was becoming like a big deal. Do you think that they're still significantly outperforming your stocks, or was that like a special moment when just uh Bitcoin and all these cryptocurrencies were taking off?

Charlie 9:03

Well, you can pick and choose stocks though that that can outperform some crypto, but Bitcoin is the highest performing asset of all time. It is the best performing asset. But you can pick and choose some stocks that maybe shoot up or things like that. But I really just couldn't spend you know time working and focusing on stocks and crypto and trying to like monitor all of it. So I chose crypto, and the main thing was I didn't want to miss out on if crypto exploded or became a huge thing, which it is now. I didn't want to miss out on the bus, you know. I was okay with missing out on a couple stocks, whatever, but I didn't want to miss crypto because that's a whole industry. So that's that's basically a deciding factor.

Tom 9:39

Yeah, that's so exciting that you were there with some funds at the time, you know, saying that it was all exploding because like I kind of have some money I can invest now, but right at that time I I I didn't have the funds, and like that's when it was just like super exciting to be just a part of that world, you know. If you were want to make big gains on crypto now, you would have to go find like a shit coin that like could blow up or something, and that that's that's riskier. Seems like at this point investing in Ethereum and Bitcoin is a solid investment, but it's just gonna be steady gains. It's not gonna it's not gonna pop like it did that year for you know for those for those big cryptocurrencies that are already well established, right?

Charlie 10:20

Yeah, well it's it's the whole risk factor. Um you're going with Bitcoin, Ethereum, there are there's less risk. And chain link even. Chainlink's kind of almost up there. There's less risk, but there's obviously less chance to get to hit it big. But with crypto, it's it's pretty volatile still. It's still in its infancy. So you really just don't know. Yeah. And Ethereum over all my coins is still up there with the highest performing. Just because if you don't touch it, it will you know steadily go up, whereas other coins go up a lot, you know, 50%, 100%, 2x, 3x, and then dip back down unless you sell it, you know.

Tom 10:57

I think Bitcoin is always gonna be a safe bet because it's kind of like the internet's version of gold, right? Because just so many people believe in that. But then Ethereum seems like such a safe bet at this point because people are building all these platforms on top of it, and it's just the more and more like platforms that we have built on it, the less chance it's just gonna tank, you know what I'm saying? Because people are using it for more than just a place to store their money, you know. So like when you and this is okay if you weren't thinking about this, but like when you first started investing, were you excited about like the technology of cryptocurrencies, or were you simply coming at this from like a financial perspective?

Charlie 11:35

I would say it's probably 50-50. Now I'm honestly more excited about the technology. When I first came in, it would say it was it was fifty-fifty.

Tom 11:42

Okay.

Charlie 11:43

Uh, because I didn't, I mean I wasn't as educated as I am now on the topic.

Tom 11:47

Um were you worried that your Bitcoin could just like go missing?

Charlie 11:53

But you I would get worried, dude. Like, I'm young enough. I'm young enough where I could take a risk. I don't have a child. Okay. Uh or you know, a house catter. I can take risks. Yeah. That's also went into my thought process. I can take a risk now. If I lose it all, I I lose it all.

Tom 12:08

You know, 26, 27, I can make it back. It just I just think it's really interesting that like the tech bros and the finance bros are all like going all in on crypto for two different reasons right now. The blockchain technology gets someone like Blake really excited, you know, the decentralized platforms that we could build with this, and just the faith in the blockchain because they go look at the code and they understand like how it works, right? And then all the finance bros are like, Whoa, this is like a gold rush, you know, and they're jumping on for like a different reason. So it's just interesting how how it has like captured both of those groups of people, you know? Yeah, yeah, that's something cool. And yeah, I have and even uh even art creators. So like when did you buy your first NFT?

Charlie 12:52

My first NFT was a Soul Snake, it's a 2D snake on the Solana network. And I was excited about it because it had a lot of Twitter hype, um, the Discord was popping, my buddies were excited about it. So it's one of the better teams that put together a project in Solana, and the original mint price, which is a mint, is when you go to purchase it, it's the price that it costs to purchase it, basically. So the original mint price was to sold to Solana, and at the time Solana was 145, 130. On mint day, I was not lucky, I didn't get it, so I didn't have one. So that made me kind of upset. I wanted a snake, like one of my friends got a snake, and I wanted it. So uh I was checking the different marketplaces where they sell the snakes, and I bought one for on a resale, on a resale for two Solana, which was the price I would have paid for it anyway, so it's whatever. And then that kind of got me a bit hooked. So I bought another one a couple days ago, and then I made a huge purchase of a snake that had laser eyes. Uh, because I figured, you know, the crypto community is obsessed with laser eyes. I mean shit, Tom Brady has laser eyes on his Twitter profile. Uh-huh. So the laser eyes are a thing. So I figure if this project blows up, like the Bored Apes or the Degenerate Ape Club, you know, those things. Yeah. If it blows up, this could be like on a hundred thousand dollar snake if it if it blows up.

Tom 14:14

Uh-huh.

Charlie 14:14

So I bought it for ten Solana, which is around two grand at the time. Oh my gosh. Maybe Solana was 200, something like that. But I bought it for around for 10 Solana. At this point in time, I had four snakes. And I wanted to uh you know de-risk a little bit because you know if the project tanks, I don't want to be stuck with four pictures of snakes. They're cool, but so I sold one of them for one that I bought for 1.5 Solana, I sold for four Solana. So I made over double my money on that.

Tom 14:42

Wow.

Charlie 14:42

Yeah, this was pretty cool.

Tom 14:43

That's sick, dude. Yeah. So like so this was like seven or eight months ago you got into this, right?

Charlie 14:49

Into the NFT game? Probably about six months, seven months.

Tom 14:52

Yeah, because like I didn't really fully understand it and get excited about it till like two months ago. Yeah. Like at that time, were you just trying to make money? Or did you think that the NFTs are really cool? What grabbed your attention and what made you feel like spending almost $300 just on like a JPEG? Why were you drawn to that? Like, why were you down?

Charlie 15:16

Well, with with NFTs, honestly, I really was I really was about it just for the kind of the tech. Because I thought this this pro this uh idea, NFTs are just it's so early, dude. And I thought it would be cool to kind of get in early, have a piece of the internet before Google is a thing. I thought it'd be super cool. And it wasn't about turning a profit. Like I would like to turn a profit. It wasn't about buying it and like hoping to sell it later. I just thought it would be super cool, and then when NFTs are like a mainstream thing, then maybe when I'm older I can sell it and retire off that.

Tom 15:52

Do you specifically you were just kind of into this artwork of snakes, or did you think that like, for instance, this group of snake NFTs could have like a similar community to like the ape club? Right.

Charlie 16:03

Well, the community was super strong and it's still super strong with the snakes. So that was the big drawing factor.

Tom 16:08

Yeah, because I think it's like these networks of people that are becoming like the the cool part of NFTs, right? So like if you were to buy one of these apes, right, that's like one of the most popular NFTs, and I'm sure it'll increase in value, but also you're in one of the most elite groups of people now, and now you can network like someone like me who maybe I'm looking for like an investor for my company. Maybe if I buy into one of these like very wealthy NFT clubs, I'm I have something in common now with a bunch of really wealthy investor type of people, right? Is that kind of the thought process too?

Charlie 16:44

Uh, I think that's uh a newer thought process. I think what was the one that Gary Vee and and Odell Beckham Jr. and Jay-Z all got?

Tom 16:51

I don't remember, but shoot.

Charlie 16:54

It looks like a little digital, it's not even that cool personally, it's like a little digital head. So I think that was kind of what made people realize that it is a community. Because like these are all you know celebrities and they all have this and they all you know they collect it and talk about it and stuff, so it's a little community. And and going on that, there was actually a uh new project that launched. It was an alien, something alien project, and they have a feature built into the NFT, I guess, in the Discord or they have a feature built into it where if you own an alien, you get access to a special network group set up. So this group's already set up, and if you own this project, you are allowed in the group. And the way I see it, it's almost like uh when you go to an airport and you're part of like Capital One or MX, you can join the club and get a free massage and a drink, and everyone's in there collectively. And I think NFTs can become that, just maybe in the cyberspace, which is it's hard to think of in process right now, but I think you know technology moves fast, and we'll see. That's how it'll be.

Tom 17:53

Yeah, so have you like communicated with anyone else in this snake club? Like, are you or you tweet at them? And like I know it's really active on Twitter.

Charlie 18:01

Like, what is I am pretty active on Twitter because that's where that's where crypto lives, basically.

Tom 18:04

Yeah.

Charlie 18:05

Um, so with this with the snake project particular, every time I get an NFT, I like to tweet at the creator something funny that you know kind of goes off what the vibe my my NFT is giving off. So I'll tweet something and tag them in it, and they'll typically retweet it because they want exposure, and then someone will see it, they'll like it, they'll follow me or comment and kind of get that discourse going. So in that regard I have, but it's still public on Twitter, right? So it's not exactly exclusive.

Tom 18:34

So like part of the whole crypto NFT game is like trying to find out what's gonna be hot before it's hot, you know? Yeah. So is there a specific person or group that you follow on Twitter or on a podcast that you get your information or you get your leads through?

Charlie 18:51

For NFTs in particular?

Tom 18:53

Either anything.

Charlie 18:54

In the Well, there's lots of good Twitter accounts I follow that are mainly based off trading. I get a good idea of what's trading, what looks healthy, what's a good project, if it's healthy, if it's a uh, you know, if the truck looks good, it's a good project, and it has good backing and good uh utilization, which is you know a fishy word right now because crypto is tough to utilize. But if it has good future, then I see that as a make a move moment.

Tom 19:18

Is there a specific account that you would recommend people follow? Yeah why are you laughing?

Charlie 19:24

Because it's funny, because a lot of these these crypto accounts, they're just or these Twitter accounts have stupid name. It's like memes, right? But it's million-dollar people behind the memes. Um yeah, it's like a joke, but not so the best trader that I've seen on Twitter, and he doesn't tweet too much, maybe like once a day, which is I guess is not that much. His name is at Smart Contractor. Okay. His handle is Blunts. Okay. Uh he's awesome. He's I think he's British or also somewhere in Europe. So he usually when I'm going to bed, he's waking up, so I'll check that, get a good idea. Some of the trades I've copied him on, he really doesn't miss too often unless the market tanks.

Tom 20:04

That's cool. Yeah.

Charlie 20:05

Cool. Also, Pontoshi, he's a he's a guy that has a good um positive and negative outlook. He's not just shoving it in your face, like, oh, crypto, he's not one of those guys, you know, that buys dogecoin and goes to the moon. He's realistic. He's like, oh, it doesn't look too good right now. Or, you know, I think now we finally found support, or I think it's overbought. He's realistic.

Tom 20:26

The reason I'm asking is because my Twitter timeline is like all like hip hop Twitter, which is a fucking shit show, dude, as well. But I'm just kind of like trying to get into that crypto space that I don't have like you're actually like the only person I follow that's into like crypto Twitter. Yeah. So this I started like realizing this is like a something I should pay attention to through like you retweeting these snakes and stuff. Like this is you and these snakes are actually my first like exposure to like oh NFTs are real, people are my friends are actually doing this, like this is something I should get into. You know what I'm saying?

Charlie 20:57

Like, because you kind of hear about it, right? You see, like, oh NFT is this this you know, this NFT sold for two million or a million. But like, yeah, I feel you. When you see like somebody you know getting into it, it's like okay, yeah, it's real.

Tom 21:08

It became real for me. I'm oh yeah, Charlie's actually fucking buying this shit and like this involved.

Charlie 21:13

Yeah, I'm a digital art collector, my guy.

Tom 21:16

I mean, that's sick, dude. I mean, who who would have thought that that would have been like a real real thing? But I mean you in the future.

Charlie 21:22

I really think there's gonna be picture frames that are digital. I mean, there are now, but there's gonna be picture frames that are digital, so I'll have I'll slap a big picture frame up there that'll just cipher through my NFTs every hour. That's dope.

Tom 21:32

But yeah, going off topic. Or it'll be in the metaverse, right? Yeah.

Charlie 21:35

Which wasn't the metaverse, it's money, right? You can make money there, but I'm not super keen to the idea of living in a virtual world. It's a little scary.

Tom 21:43

In the same way they have blue check marks, they're gonna start for your Twitter um profile pick, they're gonna start doing the Ethereum special tag on it so that if you have a real NFT, so and especially in in specifically crypto Twitter, I'm sure if you want to be popular there, you're gonna have to have like a real. Expensive one to show off, you know? I'm excited about that, dude. Yeah, we need more than just your profile pic to show off, though, because you want to be a collector of many pieces of art. We need like a almost like a platform for it, you know.

Charlie 22:11

I mean, they could implement a feature where you click like they have obviously a profile picture and you click it and you can see uh a gallery of like 10 pictures that you have that are different NFTs, you know. Pretty easy feature implement, but I think Twitter tries to pride itself on just thought, quick thoughts, quick videos, quick thoughts, not like a whole gallery of your pictures.

Tom 22:29

No, I think.

Charlie 22:30

Save that for Facebook, sorry, meta.

Tom 22:31

So what is the pumpkining?

Charlie 22:36

The pumpkining is it's a complete made-up term. I just made it up, dude. It's not a real thing. Okay, but the pumping is just something I guess I'll refer to it as it's when something pumps incredibly and it's almost unstable. Like a lot of a lot of people in the crypto community consider like when big celebrities or just you know, someone's grandma or mom buys crypto, it's a red flag because like that means it's just uh overbought. So I guess the pump putting is when it pumps without control, without a little bit of drawback, pumps out of control, and what's the term for it, dude? It blow it blows through the roof, something like that. Uh a blow off top is like the technical term for it. A blow off top.

Tom 23:22

Yeah, it's a real effect, like because I'm on crypto tick tock basically, yeah. And it's this weird thing where I feel like if you do buy any coin, whether it's a shit coin or not, automatically you're incentivized to want to convince everyone else to buy that coin because then you'll make money. You want to show the bag. It's like every single person that buys any sort of crypto immediately rushes to the internet and tries to pump it up, and it's just like talking about it like it's the best thing ever. And I see all these people like, now's your chance, buy this coin, and I'm like, aka you just bought it, you know what I'm saying? Right? Yeah, it's a weird phenomenon that occurs. But it doesn't mean it's not, it doesn't mean they're wrong either.

Charlie 23:59

But everyone thinks a coin is the is a good one. Yes, yeah.

Tom 24:02

Or else why would you put money into it?

Charlie 24:04

Yeah. Uh it's a weird phenomena that occurs when you buy, especially with crypto. When you buy a coin, it's like you said, you're part of a community. And like in that community, you're like you wanna you wanna benefit the community, so you try and get recognition to the coin of the project.

Tom 24:19

So you said you wanted to pump your bags. I wanted to shill my bags. Shill? Shill?

Charlie 24:26

Shill, yeah. I guess it's a term like you wanna sell your you wanna you wanna get recognized. Yeah, you want to pump your bags.

Tom 24:32

Yeah, you yeah, you want to promote the things that you're invested in.

Charlie 24:35

Because if someone hears this, most of my projects are just like stable projects. I I do have one uh one uh gem, if anyone's listening. So Doge Dogecoin pumped crazy. Elon pumped it, and it, you know, Elon loves Dogecoin, it pumped. Sheba pumped. A dude uh put in what was it, eight thousand dollars, four thousand, something like that, six thousand. Um, and he had it for a little over a year, and then it was worth five billion with a B dollars. Five billion dollars. Yeah, eight that eight thousand to eight thousand, or maybe it was below than twenty thousand, less than twenty.

Tom 25:10

So is like so is that too late now then?

Charlie 25:14

No, no, I'm not pumping that. Oh, okay. I'm saying that. So the meme coins, right? I I do have a meme coin, and it's very it's tied very closely with Solana, which is a big up-and-coming project. It's I mean, I guess it's it's it's already there, but it's it's one of the best projects. I'm pretty excited about Solana. A lot of people are, yeah. It's I think it's the best project out there right now.

Tom 25:36

People are saying it's gonna overtake Ethereum. Yeah, but it's because it's built very similar to that.

Charlie 25:40

It's a little bit different, but it's similar, yeah. The dog coin tied uh to Solana is Samo. SAMO SAMO Low market cap. It's not listed on really any exchanges yet. It just got listed on Gate Io a month ago. Gate Io is like a Korean exchange, it's pretty popular. SAMO, it's tied, it's the it's the Solana dog coin. And uh I put some money in it when it was just under a cent and it went up to 26 cents. That's you know, that's crazy. And right now what I'm doing is I have all that sala the the the SAMO and I'm yield farming it. Okay, which means I provide my coin as a loan for someone who wants to buy or sell the coin as liquidity, so they can they can use my coin um, I guess, to trade it. So it's gets trade daily by day traders, you know, back and forth. And I collect um a daily APR, a daily monetary payment for providing that coin. Now it's not, it's mine, I can always withdraw if I want to, but I get basically completely passive income, provided if if uh SAMO doesn't go to zero or low, which you could lose at all. But it's completely passive income, and the return rates are nutty, dude. Like when I first started it, I would earn fifty to seventy dollars a day compounding daily in the the coin, which is insane. Fifty dollars a day for so I that is the gem. SAMO, check it out. Because my my plan is it's the market cap's very low on it still, it has a good community, a good little meme community. And once it gets listed on a decent sized exchange, it's gonna absolutely just go crazy. So that's all I'm gonna shill though. No more shilling, we're just talking now.

Tom 27:39

Shill it, bro. I don't care.

Charlie 27:41

No, I don't really like it. I'm not I'm not a big shiller. I'll shell my NFTs because they're sick, but coins, you know, I'm you know, I'm in it as they say for the tech.

Tom 27:49

When you say a big exchange, right? I feel like this is something I've been confused about or or have had problems with. So I use like Gemini, which is like an app, you know, and so Gemini is a pretty big exchange. For instance, I wanted to get into Dogecoin before other people did because like Elon, you know, I I follow him and stuff like that. So I was like, oh, I feel like this will be a thing, but then it wasn't listed on Gemini, right? And so then it felt like to me it got listed on Gemini right when it was popular. Like, like obviously these apps they're just gonna add the cryptos once they become popular. So it almost feels to me like you could never really get ahead of the game if you're just using a normal one of these wallets, right? Or or that's it, are they called exchanges or crypto wallets? Or well they're ex they're exchanges. Okay. So like it almost felt like to me, because I'm using Gemini, I'm like, I can invest, I can I can put my money there, but I can't like play this game like that everyone else is playing because of that. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, like it's it's yeah. So where do I get where do you go? What website do you go where you can get the new shit that no one's using yet, you know?

Charlie 28:54

Well, the the brand, brand new stuff, the super small market cap stuff. Usually you use MetaMask and you connect to different websites and you connect your MetaMask wallet. A wallet's different from exchange. Exchange is where it's run by a company and you buy coins there. You can store them there, but you buy it there and you can sell it there. A wallet is where you simply just hold it. It's just sitting there. So MetaMask is run on an Ethereum network. So you can store coins there, and to buy coins off these small-time websites, you usually buy it with Ethereum, I believe. I I don't really do too much with Ethereum exchanges, but the Ethereum fees are extremely high. The gas fees are extremely high. So I don't really use too much um Ethereum exchanges simply because the fees can be ridiculous, like $70.

Tom 29:40

But I I think they're working on fixing that.

Charlie 29:42

Yeah. So like the 2.0 and stuff.

Tom 29:44

Yeah, Ethereum 2.0. So unlike Bitcoin, Ethereum is down to like push updates and stuff. And I think they're gonna do something where essentially if you and me tr have like 20 different transactions, basically you and me will send codes back and forth, and then we'll attach that to the blockchain once we're done.

Charlie 30:03

So like it'll be good for situations so less there's not one way, one way, one way, it's all compounded into one transaction.

Tom 30:10

Yeah, so let's say like you were to hire me to like build you something over a year and you're paying me monthly or something like that. Every month we could do a transaction and it would attach to the blockchain, you know what I'm saying? But that would require it would be more expensive. Instead, we can do these 12 mini transactions between the two of us, and once it's all finalized, then put that on the blockchain so that the whole network doesn't have to uh to look at all 12 of the transactions. So I don't know when I think that's already implemented in some places, but I think that's the big change coming out with Ethereum 2, which is supposed to save everyone a lot of money overall, you know? Um, and that's I I don't fully understand it yet, but that's what I I've I've heard.

Charlie 30:54

Well, that would be super helpful. That would really and the thing is like you said earlier, you said Bitcoin and Ethereum don't have too much room to grow. With Bitcoin, I do agree. I wouldn't really personally I don't really own any Bitcoin. I own a little bit just because I'm in the crypto world, the crypto space, so you gotta own I feel like you have to own some Bitcoin. So but the money really isn't there, in my opinion. It's not unless you have a lot to put in. It's not really there. I'd rather be a little riskier. But Ethereum, on the other hand, I believe do has it does have room to grow. Ethereum can grow, it can 2x. Ethereum, I mean Ethereum does have room to grow. So I don't think Ethereum is a bad investment at all. I think that'd be a good balance between risk and and safety.

Tom 31:33

I was really sold on Ethereum uh like from the tech standpoint, just because I'm starting to hear now of projects that are being built on top of it.

Charlie 31:40

Yeah.

Tom 31:40

And I'm like, well, if if there's these whole companies like building on top of Ethereum, it's it's gotta be better than most coins as far as like this, like the risk factor goes, you know. But then I've been hearing more and more about Solana too. So I I feel like there'll be competition there, but I think they'll both do great over the long run, you know.

Charlie 32:00

Yeah, the only NFTs I've ever bought were off the Solana network. So in instead of Ethereum to purchase something, I use Solana. And this feature, like Solana is so attractive because it is so quick. The price of an exchange to purchase something on the Solana network is completely negligible, right? It's it's it's so minor. Um so when I bought my NFTs, use on the Solana network, you buy it with Seo, and the price of the transaction is cents. Literally sometimes less than a cent. Whereas Ethereum $50 to $100-ish. But that's why Solana is like the more attractive newer version of Ethereum. But I d there are some significant differences, right? Um there's been issues with Solana shutting down or crashing, and there are some issues with Solana not being completely decentralized. So somebody's kind of in charge, like some a group is kind of managing that and they're kind of in charge, it's not decentralized.

Tom 33:05

I think I think Ethereum is the same way though, right?

Charlie 33:08

I believe it is. Because with with with transactions like that, you have to have some way to like Yeah.

Tom 33:14

Well, they're gonna push Ethereum 2.0, so how would they do that unless someone was was still like editing things, you know? Yeah. But I think they have a community, they have like community consensus on it. It's not like they just have like an Ethereum foundation, it's not a company.

Charlie 33:27

Yeah, so well, but yeah, they also have their own their leader, right? Vitalik. Vitalik Buterin.

Tom 33:32

Yeah, I've listened to an interview with him. That guy is fucking smart, dude. He's like our age, a little younger, dude. He's younger than us. I think he's like literally my I think he's literally 27. Yeah, no, it's crazy. He must be so rich, dude. Yeah, slash slow, so influential, you know?

Charlie 33:47

Yeah, he is probably the biggest face in crypto. Besides, it's actually funny. But you know who the biggest face of crypto right now is it's our old boss. Yes, Michael Saylor. Michael Saylor, the CEO of MicroStrategy, is the biggest, the probably that him and Vitalik are the biggest faces of crypto.

Tom 34:09

Yeah, because he is uh he like for those of you who don't know, um, MicroStrategy, the company put a lot of its money into crypto, into Bitcoin specifically. Yeah, so that was a huge play that like hundreds of millions, yeah. That no no one had really done before. It kind of like tested the whole network to see if it was gonna work. So he took that risk first, kind of crazy move.

Charlie 34:30

He had a a conference with Elon, even like he talked with Elon about some of the environmental impacts, and shortly after Tesla itself bought a bunch of Bitcoin, so they bit MicroStrategy almost led the way in front of Tesla, which is crazy because they're the most influential company the last five years.

Tom 34:47

Yeah, I honestly don't think Tesla would have done it unless it went well for Michael Saylor.

Charlie 34:51

Unless that they were the the the hamster, right?

Tom 34:53

Because right after Michael Saylor did that is when Elon started like being like, all right, we'll look into it, and then they did it. I don't I don't think I don't think Elon was about to risk his company. MicroStrategy wasn't doing bad, but we did have a bad quarter, like I, you know, at that moment. So I think he was like just taking chances, you know, yeah on shit like that. Where like Elon and Tesla were doing well, so I don't think that I don't think that they would have been the first ones to take that risk. Like, why would they do that? You know? Yeah. But once it went well for him, it was like, all right, let's see what can happen. And then these now these corporations are getting involved. It's it's a wild, wild, wild game they're playing.

Charlie 35:27

Yeah. And it's funny, MicroStrategy's stock is almost directly correlated with Bitcoin now. Yeah. It's it that shit went to like a thousand dollars. It was going pretty uh parabolic, it was going crazy. And it we still have some buddies who work at MicroStrategy. And you know, I always ask them like, yo, is is crypto the buzz around the company? Do you guys talk about it? No, they don't talk about it all. They're still focusing on their report design product suite, you know. Yeah, well, it has nothing to do with the I know, but I think I just think it's so funny because like when someone searches up MicroStrategy, you get a probably a picture of Michael Saylor with it, his Twitter picture with his Bitcoin in the background and gold laser eyes falling out of his face, you know, like some sort of mythical dragon. Like, so that's what you see when you Google MicroStrategy, but that's not what they're about at all.

Tom 36:18

Yeah, well, they're also like business to business too, so like they don't need to like they're pretty adaptive, promote their product in the world.

Charlie 36:24

MicroStrategy is a to give a background, I guess it's like a competitor to Tableau where it provides like an interface for businesses to create and design different reports and different like business management tools. So on you know, on the internet. So yeah, nothing really to do with crypto, but they'll adapt to business.

Tom 36:43

Okay, let's not talk about Michael Saylor though, because fuck that guy.

Charlie 36:46

Yeah, no, I agree. Okay, but wait, I have one last thing to say about it. Okay, yeah, yeah. So it's actually funny, even like to this day, I still get texts from people that I don't generally talk to too much that will just randomly reach out and be like, hey, you worked at MicroStrategy, right? And I'm like, Yeah, I used to work there. And they're like, Oh, oh, like how was it? And I'm like, Oh, it was it was fine, like the the job itself wasn't great, but the company was culture was alright. And then my next question is, are you involved in crypto? And they're like, Yeah, yeah, I just saw Michael Saylor on a podcast about crypto, something like that. So I think it's pretty funny. I had people I don't talk to, like literally probably four or five times now. I think it's funny.

Tom 37:24

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of benefits, I think, from having uh like a celebrity-ish like CEO, and he kind of put himself I did hold the door open for elevator one time.

Charlie 37:32

Well funny, felt like Darth Vader walking in. I worked there, shifted back.

Tom 37:36

I worked there for like two years. I never saw the dude. And like I never talked about crypto with anyone there. It had nothing to do with what we were doing. Me and Blase were talking a lot about like putting songs out as NFTs and music. I'm struggling to grasp the concept, concept of that. Okay, when you think about an NFT, it's you should think about it, I think, not as a JPEG, but almost as like what a domain name was for a website. So when the when the when the internet started, like people thought websites were like magazine pages for the internet, you know what I'm saying? And you didn't really know what you could do with them, you know? And so just attaching it to a JPEG is like the first thing, right? But essentially any online asset can become an NFT. So, like an artist, he could put out a song, right? And I think Tori Lanes has done this.

Charlie 38:24

He did.

Tom 38:25

And um, the cool thing about these NFTs are like you can put a smart contract into it, so you could say, every time I sell you this picture, every time someone else on the resale sells it, I get like two percent of the money back. You know what I'm saying?

Charlie 38:39

So you know, or like what's a song though, so they would sell a hundred of the songs, and then you get some of the profits on the resale.

Tom 38:46

Yeah, so so Tori Lane sold like his album. Like, I don't know how many versions he released, but yeah, let's say like it was a hundred copies of each of his songs, put them out there, right? And then just like these images, you know, they're reselling, um, and he's making money through a smart contract, he's making money every time they resell, you know? Yeah. I don't want to necessarily talk about songs too much because me and Blase were just like spitballing ideas for a while already. But but the thing is it's kind of like the idea of a website, is like you we like we don't we've never been able to own things on the internet before, so it it is fun to just kind of like imagine like where this could go, like what other applications this could lead to, you know? Okay. Yeah. So what are what are your ideas for NFTs?

Charlie 39:29

My ideas for NFTs is uh using it as like a a pass using passports or IDs where you just that's an NFT and that's stored and there's no fake ID, so you you know you can't drink if you're not 21 yet. But I think that is kind of the direct, maybe even the quick I can't say quickest with the government, but I think that is kind of like the most direct impact we'll see it. Kinda because it's almost like a serial code that's stored on on the blockchain, and every person has their their ID or passport or various other things as is a serial code, and that'll be good for security too, because passport faking passports is still a real thing. And I think that'll be very good for security, especially with some of the issues going on in the world too.

Tom 40:19

So I feel like the government will not get on it that fast. Yeah. But what it's very similar to that is like I think for like a festival or a concert or like Disney World, like tickets, they already almost are NFTs, but like you know how like you try to collect the like the bracelets for like you know, Moonrise and Letter Forest and stuff, those I think will become NFTs in the same way that like I like that idea a lot that like, yeah.

Charlie 40:42

So you're past that's almost an idea we could I'm sorry to interrupt, but that's almost that idea we could create now.

Tom 40:47

I'm sure I I if not this summer, next summer. I think that'll be work on that. Yeah, so like it I mean it kind of already is that like with your online tickets, you know what I'm saying? But I think they're gonna turn it into more of like a tradable NFT, attach it to the blockchain, and then you know, like you have like a Disney World fast pass or something like that, and like you have you could sell it to someone else halfway through the day, maybe if you if you don't want to use it.

Charlie 41:10

Disney would get a pro percentage of the profits, yeah. Is that kind of yeah, yeah.

Tom 41:13

I mean they and and that's the cool thing, you can put it in smart contracts too. So like any of these things are codable in a way where like Disney or Moonrise or any corporation can put in part of the smart contract that say we get a percentage every time it's resold or something, yeah, so that they can make more money on it. Also, I think it's gonna be attached to products. Like I think when you buy a pair of Yeezys a couple years from now, you'll get the pair of Yeezys and then you'll get like a Yeezy NFT. Because you have to worry about if these are real Yeezys and stuff like that. So then if you sell the NFT, then someone can go to the blockchain and double check that this came from like Adidas or something, you know. Uh they can just look at the code. You can track that. Yeah, and that and and I think we'll see that with all like Nike is really getting into um like the metaverse and things like that. So I think products will start to be attached to NFTs too, and that I think that will help with the resale value of like shoes and you know, jewelry and things like that, you know. Yeah. So that I mean, I'm sure you if you know about shoes or jewelry, whatever you're buying, you know if it's real or not. But it's just I feel like it's gonna be comforting just to buy the NFT too, which that also provides value too, right?

Charlie 42:20

Mm-hmm. Like you said, being an exclusive member of a club and kind of going off the concert idea that you had. I think it'd be cool because right now I have almost all the festivals I've ever been to. I have the bracelets on in my uh on the shifter in my car. So I keep that there, and I think it'd be kind of cool to be a part of a community, especially like more tight-knit ones like eForest or um Bass Center or Lost Lands, more tight tight-knit ones of people of the same type of music. It'd be pretty cool to have your ticket as some art design NFT where you are part of a community of people who who also like doing going to those concerts or those festivals.

Tom 42:58

You know, at the end of a festival, there's two different um artists playing on different sides of a festival. So an artist could airdrop an NFT to everyone within like 500 you know feet of them. Yeah. So that'd be badass. That like if you chose to go to bass nectar instead of pretty lights at the end of the festival, everyone who went over there has a as a bass nectar NFT to like say moonrise, like like bass nectar, and then everyone who was over there got like the the pretty lights NFT, and like like they they they do some sort of airdrops so that you can't get both at the same time. They both drop their NFTs right at the same point in the night. Yeah. So you have to make your decision, and then like those will go up in value depending on how the artist does, maybe. So like you you want to make your decision based off of who you value more or you know, something like that. I like that a lot, dude. The base actor one definitely wouldn't be valuable now, but and I think airdrop and location based NFTs are gonna be a thing too. I saw a travel app where like you go travel around the world and you get like a certain NFT for like visiting Paris's Eiffel Tower or Or you know, the Statue of Liberty, you know, so that you can only get them. It's kind of like Pokemon Go in that way, right? Yeah, or like a trading card. Yeah. So I think we're gonna see them attached to locations. That's probably the first kind of way. Yeah, the location. Yeah. Probably the first way it'll be utilized. Mm-hmm. And then the same with like we'll get into the metaverse more, but like if you go somewhere in the metaverse, like that's you can only you can only get the certain NFT if you go to this part of Decentraland and actually be there in the you know in the metaverse too. So like I think that's gonna happen. Okay, here's a problem I see with NFTs that I've heard about, and I haven't really seen a solution for it. Maybe there's none, but someone said the problem with them is that if you have a friend, like say me and you want to scheme somebody, right? Say you create some digital art and I come along and I buy it from you for $400,000, um, whatever Solana, whatever it is, but let's say just a number, $400,000, right? Yeah, now you have $400,000, and then I go and I sell it for like $200,000, right? And and someone looks and is like, oh my god, they they they can see the blockchain, they can see that I purchased it for $400,000, they think they're getting a good deal. They buy that NFT for $200,000, and then me, you give me my $400,000 back, and then me and you split the $200,000. Like, yeah, and so I think this is happening right now, and I think this is something that they need a solution to. Maybe they're gonna crack down on it. Have you heard about this?

Charlie 45:31

Yeah, I mean that's a pretty big it's uh it's like people can money or launder money with that too, right? So I don't think there's any way or nor should any higher power correct it. That's that's what's great about uh decentralized currency and being a decentralized network. Now, what I will say is some when someone buys like we're talking about Yeezys earlier. If someone sells Yeezys for $500,000 and they're a very specific type of Yeezy, someone else can go and buy it for $200 and think they're getting a great deal too. Now, why don't people do that? It's because people know the value of things. And I think right now it's tough to see the value of NFTs because you see an ape you bought for 200 bucks, go to 2 million. It's tough to see the value and you see that potential and you get greedy. Now, personally, I would never spend $200,000 on a on an NFT right now, but that's just me. So I think once people get a better idea of the value of these and it's not just some get rich quick thing, I think it'll be leveled out. I don't think people will be doing that. Now, money laundering might be a thing, but it's another topic.

Tom 46:33

Do you worry about that? Do you do anything to double check that this NFT is really worth what it's selling for when you buy one?

Charlie 46:46

You know, that would stick out like a sore thumb completely. I don't think I don't think most people would even think to buy that. Okay. Now, what it might do is drive up the price of the other ones a little bit, right? The other things get more valuable.

Tom 46:57

So, in order to um avoid this issue, you're not just ever gonna buy an NFT that's not a part of a project. Like you would never buy like just an NFT from an artist who's just like, hey, I made this one like thing.

Charlie 47:11

Yeah, well, typically with NFTs, it's like there's a certain amount of them, and what's great about it is when you mint it, so when you get it's a randomized order of all the attributes, so that it could have 10 attributes total possible, and yours could have one or ten, and they're all randomized by rarity. So you can get a completely rare one with all the top rarest ones, and that one's the most valuable one out of all the 10,000 of them, or you can get a completely shitty one with nothing.

Tom 47:36

You purchase like a ticket to a random, like yeah, it's a ticket.

Charlie 47:39

It's it's that's kind of scary. It's tough to do the NFT mints right now because if you're rolling the dice on the project itself and on the rarity.

Tom 47:47

What is a mint? Like, what technically is that?

Charlie 47:49

NFT doesn't exist yet. It's a project that's designed by the team, and when you go on there and you press mint, it's randomized, created, boom, off the presses, hot, into your wallet. So it's not created until it gets from the network onto your wallet. Then it's when you press mint and you pay with Solana, it's created. So I think that means it's like attached to the blockchain now, right? Yes, yeah.

Tom 48:11

Say it's like the snake club is doing another release, everyone buys into like the mint price, and then they get a random snake, they don't get to choose what they're doing.

Charlie 48:19

No, you don't get to choose. Okay, you get to choose on the the aftermarket, like the marketplaces. You can choose, obviously, but by then people kind of know the value of it. And so you bought some of your snakes on the aftermarket or all of them with all the snakes I have, because I didn't get it. With minting, comes there's 10,000 and then there's 30,000 people trying to buy it, so you're not gonna get it, probably. The odds are not in your favor.

Tom 48:40

Okay, it's it's kind of like I had to try for like six or seven months before I got an easy shoe. I couldn't fucking buy it.

Charlie 48:45

Yeah, it's like that, dude. Yeah, it's intense. When I do participate in a mint, you can create wallets for free, all kind of within your account, and they all have a different code, a different Solana code. So when I participate in a mint, I don't use my wallet with all my NFTs in it, just in case something does happen. Because things do happen, bugs do get attached. So I don't want to use that wallet. I use like a burner wallet with just enough Solana to cover the fee and the price.

Tom 49:08

So changing the subject, then what do you want your legacy to be? What do I want my legacy to be? Or you could jump to the question that was what is advice you would give yourself like at 18? At 18? If you were to give yourself life advice. Yeah, if I was to give myself advice at 18. You pick one of those two questions. Okay.

Charlie 49:26

So if I were to give myself advice at 18, um, I would just definitely tell myself that most of the of the negative thoughts that you're thinking or like what you're scared of aren't real. They're not there. Like if you're scared someone's thinking this of you, it's not there. You just have to go into every situation being confident and just knowing that whatever fears may like be in the back of your mind, that's only where they are. They're not real. You know, they're not tangible, they're not actual things. So you shouldn't ever let those bad thoughts kind of dictate where you're headed. Like you know you're in control of yourself, you know where you want to go. Now just go. I don't think I let those thoughts like kind of dictate my life, but I just think that that's good advice to give to an 18-year-old, especially I think I tried to almost in a way, like, was able to tell myself that when I was younger. You know, when I was like 20, I was like, it's go time. I don't know. Maybe you're telling yourself from Because I was pretty shy when I was younger, and then I just kind of figured it out that like if you don't open your mouth, no one's gonna pay attention to you.

Tom 50:36

That's deep. For a second I thought you were gonna say invest in Bitcoin. I mean, dude, I don't want to talk about that anymore, but like still a funny answer.

Charlie 50:46

That was around the same time, too. Yeah, like 2013. You would have made it so if I dude if I just put like all the area access money in there, like you know, thanks, Scott. Scott made me a millionaire.

Tom 50:59

What if you did just get like some sign from your future self? Like, just invest in Bitcoin.

Charlie 51:04

I mean, if to be honest, if I had to go back and just tell myself one thing really quickly and not like explain it, I'd be like, why Bitcoin? Because I knew about it in like 2014.

Tom 51:14

But um, tying it back to what you said, basically, just don't be fearful. Can I change my answer? Yeah, yeah.

Charlie 51:19

Okay, because I just thought of this on the fly. Strive to be uncomfortable.

Tom 51:24

That's a good one.

Charlie 51:25

I think if I would tell my my younger self, I would say strive to be uncomfortable. Because that's just how you grow, dude.

Tom 51:33

Like, I totally agree.

Charlie 51:35

That's how that's straight up how you grow. Like your body, your brain, learning new things you don't know, like putting yourself through different tests and limits.

Tom 51:43

No, I would say like all my most memorable events and and interests that I've done throughout my whole life made me very uncomfortable. When I used to act, I was acting in like middle school plays and high school plays a little bit. That made me so uncomfortable, dude. Like that like really pushed me out of my comfort zone. Bro, one time I was in a two-person play, and like I messed it up. 200 people were like, Oh, like like I said something, the other person said something, and it just kind of like it was obvious like the wrong line. Yeah, an audience was like, Oh, and and she had to say something else, and then it just didn't make sense anymore. And like this so dude, such like so embarrassing, but like that certainly made a memory, you know what I'm saying? And like is something that I'm built, like I was able to build off later because it was such like a memorable mistake, you know.

Charlie 52:33

Yeah, and I mean that's probably like as far as far as making yourself uncomfortable, like public speaking, um, especially in front of a lot a lot of people, especially acting when you're on actor, is probably one of the most uncomfortable things you can put yourself through.

Tom 52:46

Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying I was good at acting or anything or great. Like, obviously, I'm not doing that today. So, what is something that m made you uncomfortable that you grew from then? Something that made me uncomfortable. I guess we talked about your leg experience. So, like I was kinda out of my control. You got a probably a second second most uncomfortable experience then.

Charlie 53:07

There's so many like little daily uncomfortable challenges you put yourself through. Like even my new job, I don't really know what I was doing.

Tom 53:13

Yeah, and when you first heard of micro strategy too. Yeah, when you start micro really like uncomfortable, you know.

Charlie 53:18

Yeah, you have no, I've you know, I don't have that much of a tech background. I have a systems degree, but I didn't really work in tech.

Tom 53:24

And you kind of just jump in there and tech is very intimidating until you get in and it's just the same, it's just normal. Yeah, it's it's nothing crazy. Yeah, I agree.

Charlie 53:33

Rushing a fraternity was definitely uncomfortable because my mom's from New York, my dad's from Brazil. My mom went to nursing school but didn't go to like regular university, so they have no clue what like a fraternity or sorority life is at all. And I went in and I just rushed and I didn't know what I was doing or what I was getting into, but I'm so happy I did because I made a lot of connections that and friends that I made today and I'll carry on forever.

Tom 53:58

The role of being a pledge is just kind of a journey that it does make you grow for sure. You're like definitely like, wow, I'm being pushed to my breaking point, you know. Yeah. So now you know there's like a new a new level to to yourself you didn't know about your first year at a company or first year out of college at whatever company culture is similar to being a pledge. It just corporate, it's just a corporate version of that. And there's lots of moments like that. Being a freshman in high school is kind of like being like being a seventh grader in like a two-year middle school. Kind of just like prove yourself year that kind of leads into like a the next three years. It's weird how we go through these cycles, you know?

Charlie 54:37

Yeah.

Tom 54:38

I wonder what the next one is.

Charlie 54:42

The career role manager, yeah. Like the man the manager role where you're expected, but not you're not really a pledge at that point, but like a manager role where you're expected to know how to manage people and you just don't, like you're not there yet. You're just just started.

Tom 54:55

A lot of people can get frozen in this role, which is I would say the employee role, and that if you do really well in the employee role, you should try to be a business owner, and that's like a new stage that you can take, you know.

Charlie 55:10

Yeah, a business owner is definitely I think that would be like the next key one.

Tom 55:14

Something like you're doing with like managing NFTs and stocks and stuff, and like paying attention to that, that's like a side project, and then but if you can somehow then create a system around a problem, you know what I'm saying? You can be a business owner and you can generate more value, and like I would say then if you're like a it's your first business, right? That would be a new pledge role because someone like Elon is on his fifth business, sixth business, you know? Yeah, so but that's a level like not everyone gets to, you know. The Elon level. Yo, tell me about that book.

Charlie 55:44

Yeah, it's a book I just picked up. It's called uh The Art of War. Uh-huh. It was written, shit I don't even know what it's written by. It's written by some Chinese general, I want to say. Not good. I can tell you know a lot about it. I mean, I just picked it up. I'm probably like a chapter in.

Tom 55:59

I feel like he told me not to ask you about it or something. Yeah, so I just Wait, tell me why you decided to read this book, dude.

Charlie 56:06

Because I really so I read so the 48 Laws of Power was a cool book. I l I listened to the audiobook and I read some of it.

Tom 56:12

What is that about?

Charlie 56:13

Uh 48 Laws of Power are just they're kind of like the finite laws that make up power because power is like a very, you know, confusing thing. Like people understand it, but they don't know what it is. Um I don't know. Yeah, I don't understand it. It's because what is power like what is power? Like it's something you kind of feel. I guess it's like respect, fear, a lot of things combined into one. The 48 Laws of Power are kind of just rules that give you power. And this is an older book, so it's like war times, but you can attribute those uh lessons to your everyday life.

Tom 56:46

So the power of a civilization or like a society. Yeah.

Charlie 56:49

So for instance, um, it was talking about how you're a king, um, if you're the if you're one of his assistants or like a high up in his um regime, you don't want to overstep him and make him look bad. You want to like keep him happy. You don't want to overstep him because while he has the power, he will cut you off before you have a chance to rise up.

Tom 57:11

Okay.

Charlie 57:12

And uh if as long as you make him look good and you make yourself look good, you can rise up and wait for him to falter on power and then you can essentially take the lead and take power. And it gave an example of some guy who tried to overstep too early, and the king sent him to a either prison or like an area of where he would never rise up again, then someone else took his place and step by step, slowly, slowly.

Tom 57:36

Okay. So like a modern day version of this would be like corporate America. You have like the mid-level management, you have like the executives, you have investors, you have all these different like power structures. Yeah, you know. Yeah, it's so weird. We have like you can't escape these power structures. And it's everyone has either a boss or they're a boss of someone. It's you and usually have both, you know.

Charlie 57:54

Yeah. And it's even when you're in uh elementary school or school, the teacher's obviously the boss, and then you don't want to come off as like being a smart ass annoying kid. But if you're like there to answer the questions, like you get a good grade. And if you're smart ass, maybe the teacher doesn't give you a good grade. So it's funny how it kind of we learned that lesson super young. So with the art of war, it gives you these laws that were used in in the ancient times, the older times that could be applied to uh life today. Like when you conquer a civilization or you're in warfare, it is better to, if you take it over, it's better to like basically let the civilization you're taking over, or the empire that you're taking over, let them still be themselves and run themselves rather than put them at be make them be slaves and kind of just establish complete control and uh basically abuse the people there, because then your civilization that you just took over won't last. It'll be overthrown by the people. Whereas if you have a peaceful regime there, you are built to last longer. I thought that's pretty cool. It's kind of like when a new boss comes into a company, you don't want to come in and be like, yo, so here's the way things are done, here's this and that, no more of this, you don't get a lunch break this long anymore. The employees are like, yo, screw this. Like, I'm gonna go find a better role. Yeah. Whereas if you're like, hey, a new boss here, love the way you guys are doing things, want to learn more. If you seem like susceptible to learning their ways too, then it's a more it's uh it's a better structure.

Tom 59:23

It's definitely interesting and super important, like the way that you interchange certain power structures. Like like England used to like basically be in charge of the the US and in charge of India, and like the way that we switched power from England to the US was smooth and it went better, right? And then when like England left India, I don't think it went as well, right? I think that yeah, kind of I think I think it collapsed for a while and like it didn't it didn't it's it didn't prosper until like much later, you know? There was probably a lot of issues there, I think.

Charlie 59:51

I think uh I I could be completely wrong, but I think India I think it was Gandhi. He did it like a uh protest. A protest in the form of not eating or something, right? Yeah. Like they wouldn't eat, they refused to eat or till they had freedom.

Tom 1:00:07

It was nonviolent.

Charlie 1:00:08

Yeah.

Tom 1:00:09

But they had different tactics and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But they didn't have they didn't like England, I don't think, left them with the same structure that we had over here. So that power dynamic that it it didn't it wasn't beneficial for at least not for a while, I don't think. Like once once England left, they just left. And they didn't do a proper like exchange. There wasn't a proper really I guess there was a declaration of independence. And same thing with We also fought them twice. The US in this current like like global fair, though, where where do we just retreat from? Um Afghanistan. Afghanistan, yeah. Like we didn't properly set up the right government there, right? Yeah. So I mean we don't have to go into that, but that's also another like power dynamic that didn't could have been handled better, you know?

Charlie 1:00:50

Yeah. I mean, yeah, that that dynamic can really be applied to like life all the way before when humans first started. Yeah, it's crazy.

Tom 1:00:58

There was like a bunch of different hominids on the planet. There's like four different versions of us. Like there was the homo erectus, the there's like I don't know their names, but there's about four of them, and like our version went and like killed the other three. There could have been four different like types of species, kind of like humans, humanoids, yeah.

Charlie 1:01:12

Like they're just were like little, like imagine if there was a caveman still on the of them bred together to form different types of humans that maybe like we see today. Yeah.

Tom 1:01:21

I think some would take over other ones and and if they're obviously breed, yeah. Yeah, and if they're DNA bred, then they would like it would form a like a a combination of the two, probably, yeah.

Charlie 1:01:30

Yeah.

Tom 1:01:30

But so we're probably some mix, maybe but it wasn't natural selection, right? Like the difference between us and animals is like we went out and sought out all the other ones, probably, and killed them off. Like you know. I wonder why we won. Probably smarter. Smarter, but maybe we were the same.

Charlie 1:01:48

I mean, if we if we were smarter, then the other species were probably a little bit stronger. Yeah, came from apes, so they're probably a little bit stronger, but and maybe could climb trees better, but I think there were some like ten foot tall like humans at some point, probably.

Tom 1:02:02

I think we our version killed them off. I basically think Bigfoot probably is a real idea because back in the like thousands of hundreds of like tens of thousands of years ago, there probably was some creatures like that, but I think we probably did kill them off. I love the evolution of everything and like thinking about how those things come together. Yeah, and the evolution of the countries.

Charlie 1:02:20

We can yeah, I like it too. We can I think we should jump into like what sit what warrior in a war would you want to fight? Because we're talking about that anyway.

Tom 1:02:26

Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. Okay, so what civilization would you like to be a warrior in, like on the ground level, and what ancient civilization would you like to be like an emperor or like a general in? You could pick any point in history, any any war or any like empire.

Charlie 1:02:43

Hmm, okay. So a warrior, I mean, it's tough because like the farther the further back you get, like the more savage it was.

Tom 1:02:50

Yeah, like Greece or like that would be pretty cool to be like in a 300.

Charlie 1:02:53

Yeah, a Spartan would be pretty cool, but like they're they're also their childhood and their whole lives were just kind of fucked up. Like they were taken and just like basically trained to be like just complete warriors. I know.

Tom 1:03:03

It's pretty it's like savage, but like But like that's a kind of discipline that like you would just automatically have then you just be a a beast of a and like your goal was to to die, you know.

Charlie 1:03:13

Like our childhood would be a glorious way to like live your life to die, like but they don't know anything else.

Tom 1:03:18

Like for us, like we live this cushy American life where like we can do anything we want to do and we can chill and what you know, like if we just were born into like being a warrior at that time in Greece, like it would be kind of a cool life. Yeah, we wouldn't know anything else.

Charlie 1:03:32

I would say Greece, I probably have to go uh with the Vikings, dude.

Tom 1:03:37

Vikings?

Charlie 1:03:37

Yeah, that'd be cool. I think that'd be cool because it's kind of similar to the ancient Spartans where you're you kind of go out and you you pillage and you have more of a purpose, I think.

Tom 1:03:46

Like they have Valhalla, they believe they fight for eternity, dude. Valhalla, yeah. They have a badass afterlife.

Charlie 1:03:52

Yeah, like the Greeks would fight other city-states and stuff most of the time. There's a lot of it seems like a lot of bickering. But the Vikings, dude, it's like, okay, it's hunting season basically. We're going out or we're going to we're going, we're taking our our long boats to go pillage people and like, dude, this is our way of life.

Tom 1:04:14

You know, we grew up fighting. That's scary, dude. Imagine just being the village and like living like I love being a fisherman, and then like, what is that on the horizon? It's like Vikings, and they just rush into your town and just start killing everybody. That was killing everything or just taking everything. And then you've been living there for 10 years and you're like, my life is so perfect. Yeah. And then one day it's like pirate, Viking, scary, like these like crusaders, bro. Yeah. That would be so scary.

Charlie 1:04:36

But as far as like savage goes, those are probably the most savage. They would like, dude, they would probably they're probably the most savage. Okay, then what where would you like to be a general in? Be a general?

Tom 1:04:47

Hmm.

Charlie 1:04:47

Like that level of power. I think being a World War II general would be sick. That'd be very cool. Because that was on a global stage.

Tom 1:04:54

Yeah.

Charlie 1:04:55

Whereas, like, you know, the ancient earth wasn't wasn't even aware of what a global stage was. This was a full global stage with like basically the the fate of the world on the line, you know?

Tom 1:05:04

See, I do think right the difference would be like I would not want to be a warrior. Like, I would not want to be ground level when it's guns. Like at that time, like imagine getting shot. You could get shot out of nowhere and have no clue why you're dead and you should you're dead.

Charlie 1:05:17

Like, at least if you're Or a grenade or artillery strike broke from the sky, you're just your leg's blown off and you're like sitting there looking at your leg.

Tom 1:05:23

Yeah, at least in the days of sword battles, you like gotta look this guy in the eye and swing at him, and like you had a chance to like defend yourself. But like just two armies running at each other with guns, it just seems so like barbar. It seems worse for some reason. It just so that'd be so scary. Yeah. I'd be so scared. I wouldn't be scared with like my homies and swords near me. I feel like we can do this. Maybe I still die, but like I would have much more hope in like Yeah.

Charlie 1:05:48

But I think I'd rather if I were to be like shot or stabbed. I think I'd rather be sh like shot. Not in the head, obviously, but like if I like I feel like a or I feel like a s fighting with a sword. would be way more painful than fighting with a gun, dude. Yeah. That's true. There's a thing about knife fights. There's no winner in a knife fight. Yeah. Because both people usually die.

Tom 1:06:09

But like why would being a general in World War II be the best?

Charlie 1:06:13

Like explain that. I feel like the United States um like propaganda machine was on an all time high, so like that sounds bad.

Tom 1:06:29

Propaganda machines That's the clip right there.

Charlie 1:06:33

I think I think what do you think bro? I'm trying to I'm trying to grab the words to say anything. I think I think the US patriotism was at an all time high and I think people really understood what was at at stake.

Tom 1:06:46

Like there was a straight up um there was like a lot of feeling per a purpose a per there was a purpose.

Charlie 1:06:51

Yeah and then the attack on Pearl Harbor gave you know even more reason to get involved.

Tom 1:06:55

Yeah.

Charlie 1:06:56

And I think there was some there was a lot of honor even though when you think of honor you think of you know samurai or Spartans but there's a lot of honor in that time going to fight because you really are fighting for the sake of humanity.

Tom 1:07:06

Yeah. Vietnam was like not necessary. Right? But World War II was completely necessary. Yeah.

Charlie 1:07:12

So I think being in general at that time be super cool too because it's really for one of the first times that you get to utilize like this global mass mechanized war warfare. You know aircraft carriers uh all that was at play for you to use and basically write any blank check you gotta win this let's organize the best we can that's pretty cool.

Tom 1:07:34

Bro are you worried that history's gonna repeat itself and like we're gonna get into more trouble like that I don't want to manifest anything negative like I hope that this world finds peace but like I don't know man you gotta also study the past and like try to learn from like see these patterns and like I don't know feel like it happens like once a century or something.

Charlie 1:07:54

Yeah it seems like once a century it kind of does.

Tom 1:07:56

To think that there will be no more wars ever is like a silly idea.

Charlie 1:08:00

So what I will say on that is I don't I really don't think I don't think warfare is really going to be fought ever like it was in in World War II or even like more recent stuff. I think it's all going to be really just cyber attacks you know more like a covert ops type situation. I don't think it's gonna be a mass warfare it's gonna be all like bombs and cyber attacks and machines I don't think there's ought to be going to be a lot of human involvement maybe human planning but not and that's that's almost unattractive in like a way where it's like scarier where like you're not really in control of anything.

Tom 1:08:35

Dude so when I was um talking to the cybersecurity guy he was like cybersecurity is the next frontier of warfare like you know I'm saying this is war now and we're talking about how like it's just like virtual warfare going down between these companies and countries and and hackers and shit and it's like I wonder just to pull it into the metaverse if like the future of warfare is in the metaverse. You know what I'm saying? It's like an ethical way of us to fight it out online. An ethical way becoming instead of hacking each other's computers we're like getting virtual like swords again and like going into the metaverse to like that's how history repeats itself. Yeah and it's like US vs China it's like just like a Fortnite game it's like Call of Duty it's like what if it turns out like ninja and like all these streamers are actually like the top like warfare generals in in like the metaverse like World War meta meta meta meta world war one oh my god that would be crazy.

Charlie 1:09:28

Going back on cybersecurity too like like the US and China and Russia we're all like at war all the time like it's like hacking each other. Like it happens and then the country doesn't take blame for it. But like they're probably the in charge of it all but they're like oh no that was just a private group the pipeline was hacked by Russian hackers remember that like in the summer I do yeah and gas was insane that was a crazy time it was that was pretty crazy. I've never really experienced that where everyone like running to the gas station oh yeah that was that was a whole thing I and then uh and then they demanded a ransom and they actually paid the ransom in Bitcoin going back on Bitcoin. That's a crazy story and the FBI was able to track the Bitcoin and get it back which crashed the price of Bitcoin because it's supposed to be completely decentralized. So it's crazy how it all ties in.

Tom 1:10:18

But yeah that's a crazy tank the price dude for a little bit I'm not sure if it caused a huge crash but no dude like I I'm seeing like a clear thread now from our whole conversation to this moment because like it is like power is now decentralized. That's what to talk about web 3 and your laws of power like like that is the shift that's happening with web 3. That's it's like the centralized platform decentralized organization of of the the way we run things here and it's like we're taking the power out of where it used to be because for too long for too long we let Google and Facebook sell our data. They literally came in they said hey we're the bosses now put your information on here if you want to use it and then by the way we're also making millions off your data and this is what now we're like yo fuck that yeah and this is what the internet should have been from the beginning right like the web 2 era should have been decentralized but like the closed platforms want out. So instead of like these websites that everyone kind of owned Facebook and like you're saying these these corporations they figured out how to like get the monopolies on it and it shouldn't be that way you know and yeah I think that's the shift that's happened. That's like it and who knows how that'll really take shape. You know it's a really exciting time period yeah it's subscription that's why I wanted to taunt you I feel like no one else understands like what a crazy time it is right now. Like you're just involved enough with these NFTs to be like bro this changes everything. This changes everything.

Charlie 1:11:35

Yeah you know no it it is crazy dude and web 3 really is the the buzzword right now and the the key like focus for a lot of companies and like they're trying to get ahead of it but the whole idea of web three is for like no companies right like what if my control what if my gym idea should be in the metaverse?

Tom 1:11:51

Like what if I've been thinking about it all wrong like this is how big of a shift it is in our in like it could be that way like drive fitness might actually go digital instead of becoming a real brick and mortar like I always thought it would be yeah we it might be like fitness though how it's tough to because if you want to fit if you want to work on your personal fitness it's tough to do that in the metaverse though unless you're like actually using a headset right or or they're they're working on things that will give like if you're fighting with like a sword it'll give you sensors that feel like you're actually hitting something like yeah it's I think we're gonna start having like gear you know I'm saying like smart like wearable gear on top of a VR headset that we can work out and do a lot of physical activities.

Charlie 1:12:33

But the idea of a workout though it's like when you're bench pressing how are you going to replicate that you're gonna try to make it no you're gonna have you're gonna have a bench press with you.

Tom 1:12:41

Okay. I'm saying like imagine we're all gonna have like in-home gyms and VR goggles and your bench press is gonna be like a video game where you're like rowing a boat with some Vikings now but instead like like the row machine you buy one of those put on a VR headset like now you're rowing down with some Vikings you're living out you see like it all connects like you're living out a a fantasy instead of actually doing bench press. You see what I'm saying? Yeah but it's not really dangerous. It's not we badass too. That's what I think the possibilities are going to become it's like video games are going to merge with fitness in this way that's gonna be like really exciting like really like imagine Assassin's Creed you know I'm saying except where you're really climbing this these things and you're gonna have some sort of thing in your basement or or a place you go where it feels like the video game but it's really a bunch of sensors and stuff.

Charlie 1:13:34

Yeah you know even with like sports or sports games too you could really be like on the field and Madden like throwing a ball into like Tyree kill or something. Exactly exactly I saw a video on that someone tried to like do it where they have a they're holding a real football and I want to say they let go of it and the tracers track it through you know the video in the screen in the video.

Tom 1:13:53

And eventually it's just gonna be where you go like you just that's where you go and it it basically you basically are playing football. It's so realistic that we're gonna lose touch on the difference between the two worlds.

Charlie 1:14:05

Yeah. Are you worried that um your kids' kids are going to step outside and never touch a blade of grass or a tree?

Tom 1:14:13

No I think it's gonna be a complete reflection of like life already. So I think they'll have the option to do both and I think that all the bad parts of life will still be there in some meta version and all the good parts to the it's just it'll be the same.

Charlie 1:14:26

It'll be like a mirror as far as like the experience So you're saying like maybe they'll still get like offered drugs in a bathroom in the metaverse or something.

Tom 1:14:34

Sure yeah I think they'll yeah they'll experience it'll be completely different. It'll be completely different than what we experience and especially what if you go back a couple generations what they experience but I don't think it'll be better or worse but it'll be completely different yeah.

Charlie 1:14:48

But if we were to recreate a world why would we recreate it exactly like the world we live in you know there's there's so many funny videos where it's like oh I'm in a like Iceland dude was it Iceland one of those one of those Scandinavian countries made a video about making fun of Mark Zuckerberg oh hey Mark we're in the metaverse come check it out or we have real rocks and stuff and it's like a little outside. So why would we not make some world where we're all fucking swimming in a green ocean or something like you know what I mean something like that. Like I think a new planet or something.

Tom 1:15:16

I think safety I think it'll be safer yeah I think you could do I think you could basically recreate like dangerous life uh events you know I'm saying in the metaverse that you like literally go into like like we were talking about you could be a soldier in World War II if you really feel like that and then you won't it's not actually dangerous though. You just die you get out of the metaverse like that's that's the benefit like yeah because like that's what we it'll be a reflection of the video games we already have. That's why it won't be that different like it'll be like Call of Duty and Fortnite and stuff like because that's what video games already are but I think the fitness component will just be there so it'll be cool you could I think it'll be better than it is now so I think my kids' kids will like when they play Call of Duty they'll actually be getting a workout in yeah see what I'm saying it'll be more like laser tag but it'll just be metaverse laser tag so it'll be better. I think it'll be better for them I think right now it's the worst because we're like we have technology but we just sit on our ass. Yeah sit in our ass and click a keyboard. I think technology in the future will give us a balance more balanced life like we used to have like back when we were like in Hunter gatherers. You know what I'm saying?

Charlie 1:16:17

Yeah.

Tom 1:16:17

So I think I'm I'm happy but like how I'm excited for them.

Charlie 1:16:20

I know what you're saying but I think it'll be good if the metaverse is so cool I feel like I can't replicate a real experience. It'd probably get close but like it'll be real to them. I guess so I guess so dude but like I don't want I just don't you know they always make the comparison of Ready Player 1. Yeah where it's like it'll be like Ready Player 1 what I think of as you know the movie Gamer or Game or something? Yeah. It was like a game where it's like these ex-convicts are forced to enter this like game where you're controlled by someone else and they all literally fight to the death in real life but somebody else controlling them. And the person controlling them is like this disgusting like gross ogre thing and it's like barely even a human at that point. Because they're always just on their butt playing video games.

Tom 1:17:06

Yeah.

Charlie 1:17:06

Have you seen that movie? It's a cool movie but that's what I think of when I think of people just in the metaverse all the time. I think of these people that are just out of touch and they're just sitting there with their controls that run through their fingers through some pulse electromagnetic activity like and they just control it and that's their life they don't have a life outside of this these worlds.

Tom 1:17:26

No I I I think you can create it so that their bodies are still getting a workout in and they're not just sitting on their ass. I think people who like to sit on their ass will sit on their ass in the metaverse and people who like to stay in shape will stay in shape in the metaverse. I think there will there will always be people like in WALL-E or whatever because they exist even today you know I'm saying in WALLI you know that movie WALL- Yeah I never watched it I know what you're talking about uh basically all the humans are fat and and yeah in a similar state that you're explaining and like lazy but I think people there will still be ways to stay active in the metaverse right but it'll probably be the reflection of what it is now like the same people that like to stay active in the real world stay active like it's just this is how it is I don't think it'll be that much different yeah as far as like who's doing what there will be people on their ass. No I agree it's like they're already on their ass. Yeah I totally agree. But yo think about this what if like you go into the metaverse and you get a life right you could die and now you just get out of the metaverse what if like right now we're we are like a spirit and this whole life is just one game and we're playing like a life right now but look when we die we're like a bigger spirit and we're like oh shoot let me play again and then you're someone else. Yeah you get like reincarnated.

Charlie 1:18:36

That's a crazy thought what if it is the metaphor what if we're just a character and someone else is playing us I love to think about that dude the astrophysicist the you know I'm talking about dude oh oh oh oh NeilGrass Tyson yeah he said something that kind of resonated with me he said either we're either we're the first or either we're the last so right so we're we're creating a uh virtual world and then within that virtual world there'd be another virtual world you know if we're if we're the the in a virtual world right now then and we're creating another virtual world then that means we're either the last in the chain of virtual worlds creating themselves or the first which means we're not in a virtual world. So we're either the last or the the first chain to to create a virtual world and the first seems more more likely. We're either the last or the first simulation right we're either yeah we're either the last in a long chain of simulations or we're the first.

Tom 1:19:34

So I feel like that means it's meaningful either way because if we were the last it's so many levels down that it's like who cares? It's so down there that like we're basically real then. You know? Yeah. But also if we're the first then like we're real anyways. You know? Yeah.

Charlie 1:19:48

Well I mean the whole thing is like basically it's comes down to just dying. If you die are you actually dead or you just gum back out of your out of your whatever machine to being what you actually are. So we'll and in which case you'll come out of that once you die to what you know what I mean?

Tom 1:20:02

Okay. So my my last what if you yeah my last question then will be what do you think happens when we die what is the I really I have this I believe like energy kind of really can't be lost.

Charlie 1:20:13

Your body will dissipate right and you become nothing but the energy like like your what your brain and your thoughts and everything is like a universe.

Tom 1:20:23

I have a theory that you just you wake up and you live your same life over again. You think so?

Charlie 1:20:27

Yeah usually on a loop forever so yeah I'll I'll finish my thought and then I want to jump into what you said for a sec. Um so with my thought I think your you cut your energy kind of gets scattered throughout space and time and then you'll kind of be connected as like a new being yeah and I it's not exact I don't want to say reincarnation because that seems too like concrete but I just believe like we are all like stardust right we're all stardust and we all will dissipate into stardust but going off what you said the uh what the fuck did you say I said when you die like I have a theory just an idea that oh that maybe when you die you just you're just you get you're just start yourself over and you are yourself as a baby.

Tom 1:21:07

Yeah and you just live your same life as a loop for eternity.

Charlie 1:21:10

And I always thought about that and wouldn't you how how would you not know that you are living that same life it seems like the like with a lot of the reincarnation. Yeah but the brain is so weird dude like deja vu could be anything. That's true. Like you have you ever noticed you never see your nose I can look down and see it because mine's yeah but it's technically you can see your nose like you can see your nose but you never see it because your brain basically just says yo you just you don't need to see that.

Tom 1:21:36

So what you know what I mean stuff like that. So does it exist?

Charlie 1:21:39

So deja vu could just be like your it could be something like that. Yeah it could be something like where it's like this is a time that you remember but that time would have to be so specific you know like you get deja vu when you go and you go into like a new restaurant and you're like wait I think I went and like ate at that table over there before but that would have to be so specific that you've been to that restaurant before.

Tom 1:22:01

It's really weird phenomenon bro the more I think about it I'm like how do we have these moments like it's too that's when I start to believe in like the spiritual side of things because I'm like I mean there's too much stuff about this life that's unanswered.

Charlie 1:22:13

Can I correct my question about what happens? Yeah so I think I think when you do die I think I think there are different dimensions and I kind of think that you get scattered because you're you your stardust gets scattered throughout different dimensions. So it's a little bit like reincarnation. I don't think you respond you kind of get split up I think you cut maybe you get split up but I think I really do think like we're all just like energy and that energy gets scattered and there's I I really believe in dimensions because I think that's the only way to explain space travel at all dimensions. So I think we get scattered through different dimensions and we come back as some different being whether it's tangible physical mental whatever I think you could you come back as something. I agree I think we should end it on that note. Yeah I think that was awesome day I like I like how we started off in like the tech the tech world went to experiencing humanity and then to what happens after humanity.

Tom 1:23:07

I see everything as connecting and I sometimes I like it when you just ramble like that and then you start seeing threads and you're like that was sick. That was cool all right take it easy man you are dope as hell and this was sick Charlie appreciate peace peace