Liam Magerr & Frank Marazzo: Therapy, Nursing & Philosophy | #42

Liam Magerr is a Nurse and Frank Marazzo is a Therapist. In this episode, we discuss the similarities and differences between their careers. Specifically, we explore how to approach difficult conversations and how to help someone through a dark time.

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:02

So the the reason I wanted to unite this trifecta is like um I mean we we talked about it on our podcast, but I met Liam through your wedding and Liam already he felt like a friend I already knew. You know what I'm saying? Because I feel like I ha you must have so much in common with me and Liam, and there was just this like instant connection through Frank where it's just like, oh, I already I already know a lot of this guy, you know, or something. I don't know. There was something more there than like, oh, this is a new person. It's like, hmm. I feel like I feel like you guys must have been bouncing ideas around through college and you would go like live with him in the summers, live with me at school, you know? So like I just wanted to unite this moment and be like, what, like, how'd you guys meet? What's up with the friendship? What's what's going on, man? With uh like I didn't get a chance to hear your guys' story over the wedding because there's just so much going on. Yeah, it was a little wild.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

That's a good question. I like that, like kind of like the origin story of the kind of meeting. Uh I guess I'll I'll tell a little bit of it. Frank plug in a little bit if he wants. Yeah. Um so I met I met Frank through it was just kind of like we like pool friends, like summers at the pool. Uh we used to play Fair Blue, it was called. We used to play this game called Gnipkinop, which is similar but quite different than ping pong. It's actually ping pong spelled backwards. Um, and I used to always beat Frank's ass in Gnipkinop.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Did you hold the paddles by the the wrong end and try to hit it with the sticks? Or how do you play it?

SPEAKER_04 1:39

So how how canop works is there's no net, and you put like a soda can in the middle. Okay, and uh you kind of volley the ball back and forth, and it's allowed to bounce on the table as many times as it wants, but it can only bounce on the ground once, and then you hit it back onto the table. Okay, and then and then you can kind of like circle the table and like play all around. You don't have to go straight north and south. Um don't you try to hit the can too? Do you get points if you do that? So if you hit the can, you get five points straight up, but if you hit the can on a serve, you get minus five, like right off the back. So it's like I don't know, kind of like a spin on ping pong. It's a little bit more active than ping pong and feels more tennis-y because you can kind of wind up and put more spin on the ball and everything, but uh, but yeah, in any event, I was really good, and Frank kind of sucks, so he like uh try you know, that's how we kind of got acquainted and then um and kicked his ass every time.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Every time.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

Yeah, we'll we'll see about that. Maybe we'll settle.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

I think we're gonna have to after this. We've been saying this for years.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

Yeah, I know we have been, but uh I don't know, some time kind of passed. Uh it's just like Delaware shit. We're both from Delaware, small area, both from Wilmington, small area. Uh, I think like I more or less got caught like stealing beer from Frank's uncle one time, which was kind of played in somehow.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Uh wait, I want to hear you tell that story, and then I'll tell them what I heard about it.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

Okay. Yeah, so so I kind of, you know, Frank's uncle lived like a neighborhood over from me, and he had a lot of cool shit going on at his house that evening. Like they're lighting off fireworks and stuff. And me and my friends were just like walking around the neighborhood and saw the fireworks and just followed them to like the house. And then we're just kind of sitting in the backyard on like a bench, like looking at these fireworks, and we thought that they couldn't really see us, but they were like, Hey, like, what's up, kids? Like, they're throwing like a family party. They're like, Hey, you like you want to come in and hang out with us? And we're like, Yeah, that works, like that sounds great, you know. Like, like they're just kind of like welcoming us into their home. I didn't know it was Frank's uncle, like it. We were just like, this was just a stranger's house. So they let us in, and and like one of my friends is really good at guitar heroes, so he was kind of like slaying at Guitar Hero, like through the fire and flames on expert, like impressing the other kids. Uh, I was in the like the refrigerator trying to get adult beverages, more or less. Uh well, probably more than less, but anyway, I I got one and I kind of ran home and like I was like a young kid doing this, but like I kind of like drank a beer, and then my sister like sent me back out. She's like, and I got like a duffel bag, not a duffel bag, but like a drawstring bag, and I was gonna to go back and just kind of like fill up on adult beverages, and uh my sister wanted like a smirk off ice or something. And I was like, I mean, I was like an adolescent, honestly, but so I got back there and I'm like in the fridge, like kind of like going through, like filling up with some bud lights, got like a smirk off ice, and then like kind of like figuring it out, and then behind me is just like an adult and they're like, Hey, can can I help you? And I just like close my drawstring bag real quick and just grabbed like a root beer, and I was like, nah, I'm good. And then meanwhile, I go to like the living room, and my my buddy's still killing it at Guitar Hero. These these kids are asking for encores, like they're loving it. Like Frank's family, like you know, they play Naaman's is like a baseball like uh organization in Wilmington, so they're like, Oh, you were you play for Naaman's and whatever. But I told my friend, because I I knew this adult kind of figured out what I was doing, and we had about 30 seconds to get out of there before I got confronted. And I was telling my friend, I was like, dude, we gotta split, like we gotta roll. And he's like, he's like, ah no, dude, I'm gonna play. Like, I need to play another like ballad on the guitar, like he wanted to play another one, and then all of you know, eventually Frank's uncle, I found out later, is you know, is related to Frank, but he, you know, kind of tapped me on the shoulder, pulled me into the kitchen, and he's like, Hey man, like you're not trying to steer steal my beers, are you? And I'm just like, Yeah, I am. I feel like my heart's beating just telling the story. I'm so nervous. I was just like really little. And he's like, And then he's just like, Can I take a look who in your inside your bag? And I was like, Yeah, that's fine. And I open it up and add a towel so the cans wouldn't like jingle around or whatever. And then he sees like, I don't know, like eight bud lights and like uh smirking off ice, and he's like, Ah, I'm gonna have to ask you and your friends to leave, and just like the embarrassment, like I don't think I felt bad because I was really not a good kid, I would say, overall, but like I did feel really embarrassed, and then later came out like that was Frank's uncle, and like I think like I was making a reputation in in Delaware, like in Wilmington, they're like, Oh, Liam, like, stay away from Liam, like he's a bad kid, but I don't know if Frank, you have anything to yeah, that's what yeah, that's what you're telling me. Your parents are like, stay away from Liam. I mean, with good reason, I mean, I don't know what the hell I was doing. I was just a lot of uncontrolled ADHD or something. You are a little fucker, man.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Yeah, you're a good guy now, great dude. Yeah, yeah. I shape which I think is cool too, because like it's uh a good, like, all right, you can be a little shithead, but you know, there there's hope. You're not uh you don't you're not destined to be there forever. Um I know I was trying to think about how I found out. I'm pretty sure I don't think they made that connection for like another year. I think we were at a family gathering. My uncle was like slowly piecing it together. He's like, wait. Oh no, no, no. We went to his house, remember? Oh yeah, and he was like, I was like, oh, this is um, I think this is the guy that stole beer from you. He's like, that was you, and then you bought him a six pack.

SPEAKER_04 8:07

Yeah, yeah. I uh I was there was a part of my life I really was, you know, I still like I want to make things right if I've wronged someone. So I remember buying a six pack for him and being like, Yeah, you know, I stole beer from you years ago. Like, here's the six pack of and he was like, Yeah, he was like, Oh, that was you.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Yeah, I'm all grown up now. He was so grateful for that. He was like, dude, that was like 10 years ago, and he came back.

SPEAKER_04 8:35

Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Your karmic, your universal karmic energy got realigned and you you became whole again, and yeah, uh, everything, everything returned to normal then. The six pack was replaced. Yeah, all is well.

SPEAKER_04 8:51

I think so.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

And then so we had all that. Um so let's see, we were kind of cool and the pool, but like it was always, you know, just in the summer, see each other every now and then, and then um ended up being I don't think we were right next to each other at the locker, like in the hallway in high school, but I think he was like a few lockers down. So we had a lot of you know, a few classes together. We're like, oh, you know, I remember you, seems kind of cool. Um, and then he would just kind of like try to kick my ass in the hallway, and we're like walking to class. He just come up to me, I'm just walking, he'd just start karate chopping my books down, you know, they're going all over the place. Well, y'all were in all boys back.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Y'all were in all boys Catholic school, right? Ooh, that's outright.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

That's all the shit we did.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

That's there's like a side note, like a lot of going to an all-boys Catholic school or just an all-boys school, like you could kind of get away with so much more compared to like if Phil's co-ed, like so many times you'd be doing some aggressive or like just too much behavior, and they would just be like, Oh, it's just boys being boys. Like, I'll just like attack Frank in the hallway, like knock his books out of his hands, like just do random shit, and they and they'd be like, it'd be like, guys, get to class, and that was that would be the end of it.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

I feel like in middle school for me, there was a lot of shitheadness, and then like in high school, we kind of cared what girls thought of us, so that kind of stopped. But I feel like if I went to an all-boys high school, that shithead energy would just like grow and grow because like so much worse. We'd be like tackling each other in the hallway, like you're saying, you're probably just trying to kick your ass in the hallway, just doing random shit.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Like people yell, I remember they I think it was Andrew McConnell yelling anal busters in the hallway for like like as loud as he possibly could and getting the whole hallway to like join in with him. And the principal just like walking, just like, god damn it.

SPEAKER_04 10:53

I think not not to like get all morbid, but I think Andrew might I think he passed away a few years ago at this point. I don't know if you know that. He did, I'm pretty sure. Very sad peace, man. Rest in peace, rest in peace. Angel Busters.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

The guy who said that passed away. Yeah, oh damn. That is sad. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, well, he's he's got his legacy here, at least in this podcast. Um live on through it.

SPEAKER_04 11:26

But uh, but yeah, so and then eventually I think me and Frank ran cross country together, and he was uh not not to be like fool myself, like I was a good runner, so I was like with all the top kids, but like all my best friends were like I want to call Frank slow. Frank can call himself slow, but you know, some of my best were like the slower kids, and so it was kind of like a unique kind of connection. Like I never had this elitist attitude about like my running or performance, like or like other people's uh opinions affecting mine. I was always just like, you know, I fuck with who I fuck with, and like Frank was one of my homies, and and we kind of like uh we just started hanging out like a good amount, and then he just like lived so close to me.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

So it's just like convenience was really nice, and yo, somehow I could see like Frank, like if everyone was running laps, like kind of hide into a bush and then like catch up with the next lap and just pretend I love it. Pretend like you always do it like that. Like you got some snacks hidden over in a bush, and he's like, yo, oh yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Me and Will Creen and used to actually we would like hide behind one of the trees and just wait.

SPEAKER_04 12:38

Yeah, see, I can see that dude. I used to like see you guys come out like so not sneaky, it would just be like y'all would just like appear, like maybe you would time it wrong, and you'd come out like in front of the fast kids, and then we'd be passing y'all, and we'd just be like, This isn't adding up, like we started before you and we turned back, and like, how are you guys in front of us? Like memories, it's good times, good times, yo.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Um where are you living right now, Liam?

SPEAKER_04 13:14

Uh I'm up in Bangor, Maine. Uh yeah, I'm I'm up in Maine. Okay, nice. How's that? It's good. It's uh it's really solid. This is my favorite state to live in, I think, at this point. Um where I live specifically. Yeah, man. Uh Maine is fuck. I hope not too many people listen to the podcast because it's like an undiscovered it's the place.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Yo, trust me, not not many people are gonna hear this, bro. I haven't posted an episode in forever, and like even when I was posting weekly, it was like 50 views or something like that. So I I think you're safe. I think you're safe.

SPEAKER_04 13:54

Yeah, well, they there could be 50 more people up here, you know. That would be a good one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That'd be like it. But uh, but yeah, just Bangor, which is like kind of north central, um, not terribly far from the coast, and also not terribly far from the mountains, so like exactly where I want to be.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

So you can get to surfing and snowboarding? Is that or just hiking and shit?

SPEAKER_04 14:19

Mostly hiking, like that there's not like good surf breaks in northern Maine as much, from what I understand. But the hikings, like uh Acadia National Park is like less than an hour away, and that place is I don't know, man. It's just like magnificent, just like walking around, like you know, it feels like I'm just like high on the the nature and everything. Like I'm just stone cold sober walking around, and I'm just like blown away. Like it's a beautiful place. That's sick.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Damn, cool. Yo, also, I never explained this to you. I told you I was gonna visit you, and then like around February, and then my dad got married, so I had to go do that. And I never I just never told you why I never followed up with that.

SPEAKER_04 15:03

It's not worse. Then I was like that today, though. I was like driving because I knew we're on the podcast in a little bit, and I'm like, oh yeah, Tom never I was like, because I was telling you, I was like, dude, he get in shape a little bit, like I'm a super active person, and then and then it never really did.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

You think I was scared because I wasn't in shape? Is that you thought that's why I didn't visit?

SPEAKER_04 15:28

No, not at all. I just I just figured you got busy doing something, and yeah, I I put the invite out to a lot of people, usually with all my travels, like, hey, wherever I'm at, uh, and some like I never know who kind of like will show up, kind of thing. Like, or uh, or I'm a big like talker on the phone and stuff, and I'll put on my Snapchat, like, hey, give me a call. If you're bored, like I have this long drive, and like I never really know who's gonna kind of make that phone call. So so it's it's really.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Yeah, man. I like moved to Florida and then all of my vacations have just had to be spent going home to Virginia, like you know, at one it was a funeral, and then it was a wedding, and now I know Krogman's gonna have another wedding in October, so I'm just like, I can't, it's very hard for me to go other places, like other than back home, because every six months there's some shit that I gotta go do, which I like seeing those people, but uh right when I was gonna visit you, my dad just got married. I'm like, okay, well, I have to go to my dad's wedding, you know, obviously. For sure. I didn't know that. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, it was it was like small chill. But um, yo, Frank, I I haven't talked to you either since your second job started. I want I want to ask some more like podcasty questions, but like I just also haven't caught up with you guys individually. I it's probably not a new it's probably not a new job anymore, but you seem like super pumped about this current job you have, right? What how's it going? What is it?

SPEAKER_00 17:00

I love it. It's um honestly like nine-day difference any job I've had in past six years at least. Um so what I'm doing now, I uh finally got my actual counseling license. So I'm an associate working like under a supervisor. So I can't, I think I could work on my own technically if I wanted to, just like start my own company and stuff, but would not be recommended. Um, so I'm gonna probably do that down the line, like five, six years or something. Um, but for now it's it's kind of ideal because it's like they do all the back end work for me. So they do all the marketing, they get all the you know, patients and stuff, all the paperwork. Like I literally just show up, see the person, do my notes, and I'm out. Um, which is like before all I was doing was paperwork and like a little bit of counseling.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Okay, cool. So it's like is it like real therapy?

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's um so like I'll say it's a mix of in-person and um virtual, and I kind of have a pretty big uh range, I would say. So my youngest is I think like six, and my oldest is fifty something, something like that.

SPEAKER_05 18:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Um, but I think I'm realizing my I think ideal population is um teenagers, like late teens to like young adult, specifically with um ADHD and stuff like that. I recently got diagnosed a few years ago. Um, so I especially those kids that are like either getting diagnosed or like just understanding it, like I know that struggle is like you've no idea why you can't do these things your whole life. And now you're like starting to piece, you know, piece it together. I was like, oh, that's why this keeps happening. That's why I always suck at that. Um so in a way, like it sucked having to struggle with all those things, but I feel like I have kind of that opportunity to you know fill in that gap for them of like, hey, you're gonna figure it out. It it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

So like last time it seemed like you were dealing with like drug addicts and people who were like really problematic, and now it it sounds like you're dealing with more people who are like seeking help, right? Which yeah, yeah, might not be as a troubled of a person, but it's also a lot more can come out of someone who is looking to improve, right? You know?

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Um Yeah, that was um the place I was at before was a rehab, so it you know, most of them didn't really want to be there. So it's like you're like, like you said, you're kind of fighting a losing battle off the offset if they don't want to do the work, and you're like trying to get them to do something they already don't want to do. So it definitely helps if they're already kind of motivated.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

So you're seeing like you making a difference in your patients, and like is it a rewarding experience now?

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Yeah, yeah. It's um it has its challenges for sure, like just adjusting to going from working with a whole team. Like I know you know this, Liam, like working with the team at like a hospital or a psychiatrist, you know, some sort of setting like that, it's it's so much different to then just like completely be on your own. It's like you gotta make all those decisions. It's all on you. Um but the cool thing about that is because of that, it's kind of forced me to I think be a little more honest with myself of like, okay, where what am I actually good at? What am I not good at? Like, where do I really seem to be struggling? Um, so I can kind of fine-tune it a little bit now of like who I want to work, who I'm best at working with and who I don't really work well with.

SPEAKER_04 20:36

Yeah. I feel like it allows you to kind of like specialize a little more. You don't have as many safety nets of different people and like the whole treatment team. So you have a lot more responsibilities on your shoulder. So you want to do something that you excel at and uh kind of comes more naturally, and you working with that population that you can relate to and you're able to empathize with, I'm sure it helps tremendously with uh kind of getting in their shoes because you've been in their shoes, you know. Yeah. And give them good advice and kind of direction. That's that's pretty interesting. Your range uh of population from six all the way up to 50. That's yeah, I mean me and Frank have a very similar uh line of work, and I've I've had a pretty big population range as well, but counseling, like I could imagine what that kind of looks like and how you break things down differently.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Yeah, yeah. So that's actually something I wanted to bring up is like the similarities between your guys' jobs. So like um once I because I met Liam through Frank and and just like you guys have a similar vibe, it was just like intuition. I was like, this podcast needs to happen. Like, I just want this group to get together and talk for no specific reason. It just feels like it needs to happen. But then once I started thinking about like, okay, what are the three of us going to talk about, you know. Um oh fuck, we're running out of time. Wait, I can upgrade? Hold on.

SPEAKER_04 22:07

I'm just gonna hold up. I'll send you a Venmo. I just need to get my Venmo unsuspended. Wait, wait. Wait, why are you suspended? Dude, I got I got scammed on Venmo. It sucks. Really? Bro, everyone's getting scammed via Venmo. But Cash App.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Cash App's the worst.

SPEAKER_04 22:31

Oh yeah. I mean, when you think about it, they don't they don't have very good security on Cash App and Venmo.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

There's nothing. They don't care.

SPEAKER_04 22:39

It's just it's just an app. Like you could just steal someone's phone, open up their Venmo app, Venmo yourself like two grand, and then transfer that money to your bank and then just delete your Venmo account. And then like no repercussions. Not that anyone's gonna do any of this, but uh yeah, yeah. I got I got freaking hoaxed, dude. I was like trying to go just like return something on Amazon, and it was it was like a customer support line. Um, I Googled and then I called it and it ended up ended up being like someone who like sounded like an Amazon customer support guy and were on the phone for almost an hour, and then like at the end, he just like smooth criminaled me, and I was just like, Yeah, it's I was so I was so smarter. I was so pissed, dude. I was like, you know how Marshawn Lynch says he like take care of his chick, take care of your chickens. That's what he says, like essentially meaning take care of your finances. Like, I was like trying to take care of my chickens, and then this freaking fox came in and just murdered them all. Like I was like, fuck. I was so mad. But that's it's how it goes sometimes. It made me want to watch one of those YouTube videos where they like kind of scam the scammer, or like you know, they just waste their time for like out. You've heard of those?

SPEAKER_00 23:59

I love those, those are the best.

SPEAKER_04 24:02

Yeah, that's like I feel that's like some feel good just content right there.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Some positive motivation.

unknown 24:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

Cause like as soon as I got scammed, I was like, I was like homicidal thoughts. I was like, where does this person live? Like no, not not on a serious manner, but you know, figuratively, spiritually.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

Yo, sorry guys, I'm I'm um I should have done this ahead of time, but I'm just gonna sign up for the the zoom so that don't kick they don't because this will happen like every half hour and it'll be super annoying. But keep talking, just keep talking. That was that was funny, Liam. I was sad too.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Oh yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

I always talk about it.

SPEAKER_04 24:55

Wait, Liam. What time's your concert? Oh, it's uh I think the doors open around 7-ish. I was going to meet up with my friend like around 6 30 or you know, somewhere. I'm not too pressed about it. It's like a metal concert, and uh I don't know. I just I like live music, so like, but like metal's probably not my preference preference. So like I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 25:21

Meet up with nah dude.

SPEAKER_04 25:25

I don't know if any mosh pits are gonna be happening or like the wall, you know, they have like this wall of death. Wall of death.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Love that shit.

SPEAKER_04 25:33

I wouldn't wild, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:36

It's wild.

SPEAKER_04 25:37

But yeah, I wouldn't mind doing a little bit of the mosh and like just bumping into some strangers, and you know, you're all wet, and it's not even none of it's really your own sweat, you know, like really getting a little grimy with it.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

I was just thinking of uh it's slightly stupid when we saw that. I think that dude was on meth. Remember, and he like didn't he knock some dude out or something?

SPEAKER_04 26:03

He's he was like this, you know, short, chubby dude with a blonde mohawk, and he he entered. I can't believe you remember this too, but like he entered the mosh pit and he just looks lost. He's just like looking around, and like his friend bumps into us, like nudges us with his elbows, he's like, It's alright. He's on math.

SPEAKER_05 26:29

We're like, no, that's not all right. That's like the least alright.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Oh, that's read sharing. Thanks. We're good.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

I just finished the payment thing, and that's like the first thing I I checked back in on. I'm just like, I don't know what you guys are talking about. Uh yeah, welcome back. Wait, um, first of all, I got it set up so we're not canceled. Uh also, dude, like my new goal with the podcast is like I've been working on some of my other projects, and I just like I hate the editing process, so I'm just like, fuck editing. I just want to talk to, but I miss talking to people. So I just want to talk to people and upload that shit and like not spend forever caring about the editing. And like, if if this shit every half hour like cut us off, like I would have to just like edit them all together. Then we'd have to pick up the conversation, stop the conversation. Bro, that shit would suck for like I don't want to do that shit. So, like, uh what also, what time did you say your concert was, Liam? That sounds important for well, it's not too important.

SPEAKER_04 27:32

No, I'd say like wrapping up around 6 30-ish is fine. I mean, uh it's like a metal show. I'm not like huge into metal, I just want to see some live music. It's like 15 bucks, it's in Bangor. Oh, going with the co-world course and just trying to make some friends. Hell yeah, man. What's the artist? Oh uh, I don't know. They're a local group. I think they're called like, I don't know, devil's hangnail or something. Who knows?

SPEAKER_02 28:03

Yo, have fun, but like to me, that sounds terrible, bro. Like, going to like an unknowing metal concert. There'll be some weird motherfuckers there, dude.

SPEAKER_04 28:13

I kind of agree. I like I kind of I'll see where you're coming from. Like, that sounds terrible. Like, that's that's a fair reaction, I would say. But uh, but sometimes half the show is the people, you know what I'm saying? So I'm I'm kind of excited to see some of those curmudgeons and like see what I mean. Bangor's got a lot of curmudgeons. Like this place. What is a crow?

SPEAKER_02 28:33

What is a curmudgeon?

SPEAKER_04 28:35

I'll say a curmudgeon would be like kind of like a hybrid between not like a full-blown homeless, but like a someone, you know, who's kind of just dwelling, like a street dweller, uh who's maybe like more more like homeless, homeless by choice, I would say. Like that kind of ordeal. And you want to go hang out with them? Well, no, like a uh these would have more money. Like, I think they would be less homeless person by choice and more like you know, uh like hole in the wall people they got enough money to like not get kicked out of establishments. But like crazy always sunny.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Yeah, that's actually what it reminded me of. Like the people you hang with out with under the bridge, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

The bridge, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

I was thinking, I was like, Liam, are you gonna go uh hang out under a bridge tonight this after this concert? Is that what you're gonna go do? It's not in this background. Well, I probably won't drink.

SPEAKER_04 29:35

That can get hammered. Nah, I think I'm probably just gonna be cruising, laying low. I picked up a shift for tomorrow, so I'd be bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. And and you know, back to that ADD, you know, ADD, ADHD. I think we all have that. I think me, you, and Tom, I think literally all we literally all have it. And uh when I when I drink, I feel like it very much exasperates my symptoms of like ADD, ADHD. Like, you know, instead of having thoughts that get filtered and then actions occur, like my thoughts are just actions. Like, you know, I don't I don't really filter out like the stupid things I shouldn't be doing. And then it's like, I don't know, I'm just too old for that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, actually. Yeah, it's like I'll just like get into this zone and like it get it energizes me, and people think like I've done like heavy drugs, and I'm just like, no, I'm just like really drunk.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Mr. Leahy in the flesh.

SPEAKER_04 30:43

Yeah, I just want to chill on the sauce. It's like for my active lifestyle, it's kind of it's kind of hard to kind of consume a whole bunch and then like get up and run like 10 miles or something. So yeah, it's just easier, it's easier on your body.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Yeah, it's way easier to be sober when you're that active, or it's maybe the other way around, it's way easier to be active when you're sober, you know? It's just like can't get too turned and go do all that shit.

SPEAKER_04 31:11

It's it's not at this age.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

You could have when you're younger, but oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:17

Oh yeah. I some of my best uh athletic feats have been the after a night of like heavy drinking, you know, like the next morning. I'd like to go out and he's not lying.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

I'd seen it.

SPEAKER_04 31:31

Yeah, Frank was living with me. We're living at the beach together, I think.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

He ran a marathon, no, half marathon, half marathon.

SPEAKER_04 31:38

It was a biathlon, actually. So I had to get a I'm all hung over and I got the spins and I have to swim like a mile and then get out and run a 5k, and and I whoop some ass. Yeah, I whoop some ass for sure.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

But uh maybe you're built different, bro, because I can't do that shit.

SPEAKER_04 31:59

Yeah, not for everyone. I think it's I think that's actually like one of the best ways to manage uh my extra energy and to help improve my focus is like having having these outlets where I just expend a ton of energy. So I think that's kind of like my my medication instead of taking like that or all and stuff, it's helpful.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Definitely yo, I was like in the middle of some big cool question, and then the zoom shit fucked me up, right?

SPEAKER_06 32:29

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

I can't I was I'm trying to think of what you were about to ask. Oh, I know what I'm gonna ask. Yeah. Oh, you meant okay. I was like, I don't know if you forgot. No, no, no. That was like the big question of the interview. So I they they really fucked me on that. But um, we were talking about how your two jobs were similar, right? And I was I was saying I was thinking about doing the podcast with you guys, and I was thinking about like how like kind of dark and difficult like your guys' jobs are, like, there's so much pain and darkness involved with um being a nurse or being someone's therapist. Like, not only is it you're seeing people who are going through something tough, but it's usually like you're dealing with like the most darkest, difficult issues in their lives, you know. But then on the other hand, you guys are both like really, really, really positive people, like a really good vibe, like so funny, so positive, optimistic, like one of the most two of two of the most just like brightest, kindest people I know, right? So I'm I'm wondering, I I want to like open up a discussion about this like dichotomy here. Like, is there did you guys go into these professions because you were so optimistic so you could handle it? Or does something about working with people going through painful times make you appreciate life more? Like, I just kind of want to understand the similarities I see in you guys, and maybe it's just random, but like what's um maybe there's something here, you know?

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Yeah. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

So what's going on? What's going on with with with this um this connection? Anything? What do you think, Frank? You want to start? You want me to go?

SPEAKER_00 34:15

I definitely see it connection. Um, I it's interesting actually, and me and you have had a lot of conversations about this, Tom, of like the um the whole idea of like your shadow self or like your darker side and like leaning into that, trying to understand that part of yourself. Um, so I would say actually a lot of my shittier times in life are kind of what pushed me towards this. Of like, you know, especially kind of latter end of high school, kind of early college, you know, there's a bunch of like big events that happened just back to back to back, and it was just like, holy fuck, you know, like rug kind of got ripped under for a second. It was like, what is going on? Like what thought everything was one thing, and now it's like I don't know what my life is, I don't know what I want to do. Just seemed like everything just kind of, you know, I came, it just all switched out of nowhere. Um, and through that time, I it was really dark, I was really depressed and just I don't know, but I going through all that and seeing my family go through a lot of it and come together through a lot of it, it and seeing a lot of my sisters go to therapy and how much that helped them. And then later down the road, it was like, oh shit, like maybe there's something here, you know? So then I started going myself and through all that, I think because of all that pain, it pushed me into a direction where I was like, I don't want to put pain on other people, like I've been through too much and this sucks. I don't want to feel like this anymore. I don't want to make other people feel like this. So I tried to find the route of like, okay, how can I kind of do the opposite? You know, how can I be somebody that, or you know, kind of make this space where people can talk about those uncomfortable things, they can go to that dark place and it not be dark. Like it, it's kind of like shining that light in the darkness of like, hey, we all have those moments, we all have things we're uncomfortable about ourselves, but that's not necessarily bad. You just have to understand that, acknowledge it, you know. But it's it's like the more you try to push that away and deny that kind of darkness or deny that pain or whatever, it just keeps trying to come up. So it's like you kind of have to take control over it almost, and that's where I found my place, I think.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Interesting, if that made sense.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

That was a lot.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

No, no, that was great. Crush that, Frank. Crushed it, bro. That was nice.

SPEAKER_04 36:42

My stoke level is going through the roots. All right, Liam. Good luck, dude. Yeah, well, so um in some ways, kind of similar, but uh, I kind of you know, I I I very much kind of take on the emotions of the people around me sometimes. And at a pretty young age, I remember a good friend of mine was going through some struggles, and he was like, we were like 10, and he his parents were getting divorced, and I remember him being like tearful at school and really upset, and like like his pain was I felt I felt his pain, even though I never I didn't have a similar experience or anything to kind of compare it to. And I remember, you know, I was I was a kid, and I just like didn't sleep in my my room that night. I slept in my mom's room. I remember crying a lot and she was like trying to help me out, and she's like, Well, Liam, maybe like maybe someday your job or what you can do with your life is like helping others kind of like get through tough times and like stuff like that. And then uh time kind of went on. Um, I've always been kind of like someone that's happy to listen to like friends with like what's going on with their lives, trying to find a silver lining or finding a positive outlook. Uh, but I knew I was gonna do nursing, and then throughout kind of college and like kind of evaluating my own psyche and a bit more of like some darker uh times with myself and and maybe others around me, it kind of uh psychiatric nursing just it it stood out for me uh a whole lot. Um, and kind of like to tie in what you're saying, like with me and Frank, how we have such positive outlooks, uh, but we do uh work with people that are incredibly just just having a very, very tough time. We some not all the time, but a lot of times we'll we'll work with people that are at their absolute lowest point. And uh, and I think that I've like kind of really strive to be kind of that per like just to keep it easy with people, be like kind of a positive influence, kind of be like the person that I'd hope to find along my travels uh in in my like dark areas of my life. Like some people have come through. Uh I mentioned a Frank before I was having a tough time, like my freshman year of college, and he he just calls me like out of the blue just to say what's up or like how's it going? And I was at a college where I like I just didn't know anyone, and like I wasn't really branching out, I really wasn't making friends at this point, and like that was super impactful, but uh, but yeah, that kind of what what drew me towards psychiatric nursing is just like really just trying to let people know that they're not alone and they can kind of navigate everything and and uh like have an outlet to really like talk about some difficult scenarios and to kind of compare to like for the viewers or people listening, like what Frank, what Frank does, he's like a therapist. I'm like more like a mock therapist. Like Frank specializes in therapy. I'm just kind of helping, you know, either kids, adolescents, adults, or just kind of like stabilize and kind of get through the day. I try to just show them how human I am without being too personable, but it's hard because I'm very personable, and just try to get them to a better place. Remind them how low they are and like how they can get to a better place and how their feeling isn't permanent, like stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

That's a big part of the what you said at the end of the not being permanent. Oh, yeah. I that's I think just that concept of the you know, this two shall pass just in everything. Um that concept alone I found not only in my own life, but like especially with a lot of my patients, like that really hits home of just like, yeah, man, this sucks, but like you know, maybe tomorrow you could be feeling better, maybe next week. It's like we don't know what that timeline looks like, and that that sucks and that can be scary for people, but um nothing lasts forever. Like it's just that's just not how that works. So there is always that kind of hope that you can give them.

SPEAKER_04 41:04

Yeah, definitely. And and in the time, like that's their whole, those are their thoughts. Sometimes they're circling, and and that very much is kind of like the definition of anxiety, more or less, just circle thinking. And it feels like their entire world is just in that moment, but just reminding them like, hey, like, let's just talk for a little while, let's get it out. Maybe you'll get like a good night's sleep and you'll wake up and your mindset will most likely be way different than maybe how you're feeling at that point in time.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

That's all we can hope for. Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

So it seems like for both of you, um, reflecting on your darker side, the shadow self, right, or dark situations, painful situations helps you be optimistic. And most of these most of what you can do for people is through like conversation, right? It does this optimism, this kinder part of your soul come out naturally in conversation, or is this something that you have to intentionally cultivate for people? Are you carefully choosing every word like um in a strategic way, or are you guys at a place where you can just be yourselves and it's just a tender conversation through as it is does it come naturally, essentially?

SPEAKER_04 42:36

You're killing it with these questions.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

I know, man. God damn.

SPEAKER_04 42:39

Yeah, thanks.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

You don't go first when we take it.

SPEAKER_04 42:45

Uh yeah, I'll take it. I I'd say that um you definitely do have to be uh a bit more strategic with what you're saying, because if you say like one of the wrong like maybe words or sentences, someone can kind of just dwell on literally that and kind of tune out the rest of the you know conversation. It's kind of like if you get hit by like something that's super heavy, you you could just tune out and and just not really be present anymore. So I am kind of more selective with what I'm saying. Uh I think I'm lucky enough that being kind and empathetic has been something that's just come naturally to me, like throughout my whole life. Um, so I'm kind of selective, but I'm also very much being myself. Like it's a combination. It's like a professional surfer, dude. It's like your nurse. That that's like who I am. Like I use a lot of humor in getting to know the patients. Making them laugh just naturally helps them relieve some stress. It might help them kind of open up a little more, it might facilitate for them to. Have treatment that is more impactful and has a better outcome than like if I'm super duper serious all the time and just like you know not breaking it down in ways that they can understand or relate to. So it's like kind of like a fine line. I kind of make plenty of jokes, I say silly shit. I know a lot of different like slang and younger kids slang. I work with kids a lot, so they appreciate it when I say like shit like I don't know, like you know, there's always saying like on God and talking about ribs and like all these different things, and like not not only do I know this new slang, but I know like all this old slang too. So like when the like adults, like kids sometimes feel like it's kids versus adults, and I remember feeling that when I was little. I was like, adults are authority, like it's not fun. But if you can show them that you're cool and you can like relate to them, you can make like leaps and bounds more of an impact than if they just think you're like an old fart that's just out of touch. So what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Dude, I'm glad you said that because that's actually like exactly I think where I'm finding my place of like being that kind of gap, where it's like, you know, we're young enough where we still are kind of, you know, like you said, understand what's going on in the culture, what's like big with kids these days. Um, so it's like I can relate to that, but they still kind of see me as this kind of authority figures, maybe I don't really know. But um it's like I feel like because of that, when I treat them with respect, when most adults don't, and I give them that environment of like, hey, we can be real with each other, but like be real with me. You know, I'll give you the space, we can be cool, but like don't bullshit me, don't lie to me, like, you know, we actually want to do something here. Um and I found that to be really cool with a lot of especially teenagers that are in, you know, very abusive household, you know, live in super low income, just so many issues going on, and just seeing how the parents just kind of, you know, put so much blame on the kids, and it just feels like a lot of them never really had a shot. Like they they see what you know, they become basically what their parents kind of expected them to be almost. Um, so I really try to find that gap of like, hey, I know you've been told this your whole life, but like that doesn't mean it's true. We can I I know that's how you people see you, I know it's probably how you see yourself, but let's see if we can maybe change that perspective just a little bit. I know you got some good qualities in there. What are those? You know, and for a lot of kids, um I found that a lot of kind of like what you were saying earlier with um the ADHD management, with like doing stuff that, you know, just using that extra energy. I found that with a lot of kids, finding some sort of creative outlet is really, really helpful, um, especially teenagers. So I always encourage music, obviously. I'm a little biased on that one. Um or just like art or you know, some sort of I like I know thinking back to when I was in high school going through all that, like music's what got me through that. So some sort of thing like that, just be like, hey, hang on to this. I know it sucks right now, I know you're frustrated, but like this will, you know, this is that one thing you can always turn to.

SPEAKER_06 47:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

Yeah, I feel like that's I feel like that's a really important point you said, Liam, about um talking to the youth like with their language, and it goes like in all directions. Like um, when I talk to my grandparents, even like I have a certain way of talking to them, you know, that's different than the way I talk to the Gen X, like and the millennials and the gen, you know, every generation has their own way of talking and thinking, and then same if you're talking to a woman or you're talking to a man versus if you're talking to someone from a different culture. And like, um I want to wrap philosophy into this at some point too, but I would kind of jump in the gun. But I've been reading a lot of like Plato's work on Socrates, and like Socrates refused to write anything down because of this very reason. He's like, you talk to everyone differently, right? And if I write something down, then everyone can bring their own kind of meaning to the paper where I would tailor this message a hundred different ways to a hundred different people because there's something about conversation where it's almost more important to in even in subtle ways, like match the tone and the the feeling in the room or the the the background of the person, all these all these like very subtle things that you know I I just had a lot of realizations about con like com like dialogues, conversations lately that have pulled me back to podcasting that I feel like you guys must be very, very in tune to since you both just have conversations all day long. Like that's I mean, Liam is more focused on the medical care, but like it seems like you're having as many conversations all day long as Frank is in in a lot of ways, because that's just what the work involves, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:21

So I think I think uh yeah, what are you saying, Tom? No, go on, go on. Oh, I was just gonna say, yeah, like catering to your audience is kind of huge. Like kind of what you're saying with uh Socrates. Like, I can't write this down, I would probably explain it a thousand different ways to a thousand different people. Um, of course, you're not gonna bring the same energy and and tone and almost strategy to every single like patient you're lurking with, you're you're definitely gonna address it differently, you know. Whether it's uh you know, maybe it's a kid that is is on on the spectrum and um he you definitely won't communicate with him nearly the same compared to some other kid that maybe isn't very sheltered and is going out and and doing like things maybe they shouldn't be doing and been around a lot older people and and they seem like they're grown, but they're obviously they're not, but you'll probably talk to that kid a whole lot different compared to someone who's on the spectrum that's not nearly as socially advanced and maybe like is home playing a lot of video games all day, you know, like just just those two extremely different humans, like just playing that idea in your head. You you probably already have your gears turning of like, I'm sure Frank's probably like, yeah, I'm probably gonna talk to this person this way, you know, like they're just so different.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

So yeah, that's how I think that's really good insight that like you kind of made that connection because that's like I remember being in grad school, and that was one of the first things they taught us of like when you're with a person, try to there's the saying, like you want to meet them where they're at, right? Like you don't you want them to get to a certain place, you want them to, you know, work on whatever you're working on, but you have to meet them where they are at that moment. If you try and get them, if you're trying to get them over here, but they're not even here yet, you're not getting anywhere. Um, so that was a really big realization of like trying to just off the offset, just really pay attention to people. Like, how do they say things? What what interests do they seem to have? What things are they against? What, you know, what are their passions? What are their and just trying to find that sort of common ground. Um, and even like you said, like sometimes matching tones or matching kind of body language, or you know, um, just finding that sort of unique rhythm with that person. Um and that's I've found honestly to be probably I don't know if I want to say the most important, but that's one of the most essential skills I could say for a counselor. Because you see so many different types of people.

SPEAKER_06 52:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

So specifically, like um, this is something I'm personally really bad at, which is when someone's going through a hard time, it seems more important not to say the right things, but to steer clear of saying the wrong things, you know? Um where like Liam's saying he's cracking jokes all the time, but a certain a certain type of joke, I mean, it's that's a little risky, right? Because a certain type of joke to someone who's going through a lot of pain may may not be funny at all, like, you know, and maybe may ruin their days. So I I know I I believe that you towed the right line there with your jokes, but like what is something what is something or what are some general principles that you guys can think of or like stuff not to bring up with someone who's going through a rough time? Like what what should you be worried about in conversation when dealing with someone at a rough place like this?

SPEAKER_04 53:23

I think I I got a few initial thoughts if you want to collect yours for a second, Frank.

SPEAKER_00 53:29

Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna need a second on that one.

SPEAKER_04 53:32

That's a tough one. Yeah, I so a lot of what my job is is kind of like assessing what that patient's uh like their what their like psychosocial, like what they're how they're feeling, what their moods like, what their their affect is kind of like how they come off, you know, like if they seem happy or sad or or their face is just emotionless, which would be like flat or blunted, uh, compared to how they describe their mood and and what they rate if they have anxiety or depression or angry. Um, all those things. So I have to kind of do a thorough assessment, but I try to, you know, get those questions in, but not as much as like a checklist. Uh I think it's a good balance between talking about some of the things that are they're interested in, me getting to know them, showing them that I kind of care to get to know them, and I actually do. Like you can't really fake genuineness, which is really important in my profession as well as Frank's profession. You can't really fake it, and people will see right through it. But so trying to just strike a balance between asking the questions I'd need to ask to relay the information to the doctors, the therapists, write a note that's that's thorough about my experience with them, and then also talking about just kind of random things. Like sometimes I just tell them random things. Sometimes I ask them random questions. I say, What's your favorite color? What's your favorite Disney movie? Like, what kind of music do you like? Like, I currently I I have them come into like I have like a little bit of an office, not really, but when I have them come in, music's huge for me. And Frank loves music. Frank loves music. But so at the end of like kind of my interview and check-in, I ask them like what kind of music they like, and I'm on a computer, and I'm like, I'll give you like one song so they don't like abuse it, and I have to see like a probably a bunch of patients every day. But I'll be like, hey, what's like a song that you want to listen to? And we'll kind of just sit there and we'll listen to the song. They like the song, but it's also allowing me to kind of get to know them a little bit. Like some people say, like, you know, their love language is like music or like you know, sharing playlists with people, like it really kind of gives you some insight of what that person's like based on their music. So I don't know. That's my answer.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

I would say, um, so I was trying to think about a little bit, and I was thinking about the last question, and I think that I think it's hard to answer because there's not a universal, like we were saying, each person's so different, right? Um but I I would say the biggest thing that I've noticed is that you know, there's two of typically that you can kind of handle those situations. You can either just kind of provide that support, give them that room to vent, you know, be there for them, give them that empathy and all that. Um, or you can kind of try to find solutions. How do you feel about this? How are we gonna get you better? How are we gonna get you feeling better? Um most, I would say, I don't want to say most, but I would say maybe 70, 80 percent, at least in my experience, people just want support. They just want to be her, see that somebody gives a shit about them. You know, it it's crazy because it's like I'm always sitting there and trying to think of like, what do I say to this person? Like, they just lost their their family, they just lost somebody they care about. So, like, how am I gonna take that pain away? Nothing I say is gonna do that. So, all I try to do is I I I agree with what you're saying, you have to be really cautious about not saying wrong. I would just more put your focus on like if there's any hesitancy of you're gonna say the wrong thing, just try to be there for them. Just listen, you don't have to have any advice, you don't have to have any insight. People just want to see that, like, oh, you're listening, you care about my pain. Thank you. I appreciate that. Mm-hmm. That's it. Or pretty simple.

SPEAKER_02 57:57

Yeah, I think my issue, a lot of like I only talk to friends, so like for me, the problem would be like the the focus of the conversation is on me. You know what I'm saying? Like in podcast interviews, I'm pretty, and this is the reason I like to do them. I'm pretty good at keeping it on the guest, but like whenever I'm just not in a podcast, I can steer the conversation back towards myself in ways that probably would make someone feel not supported or whatever. But for you guys, that's probably not a problem, even in the slightest, because if my therapist started talking about his own life, I'd be like, what the fuck, bro? Or like my nurse is like, bro, I've had a hard day and just starts like ranting, I'm like dying of cancer. I'm like, yo, what? So I guess it's not even like I guess it's not even like um, it's probably not even like a concern of your guys's, because that would just be like insane.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Well, I would say, see, it's it's interesting you say that because that's actually a big debate in the whole therapy community, if you should share anything about yourself. Um there's you have some people who say don't ever share anything, and then there's some people who say, How are they gonna open up to you if you don't, you know, tell them a little bit about you? Um, so it's a very, very fine balance. Like you have to be really careful. Um, but I found if I let just a little bit out, especially in like a really pivotal moment where they're like, Oh, I get what you're going through, I found that to be really helpful if I immediately bring it back to them after.

SPEAKER_04 59:28

Yeah. No, that's true. That I think that's a really just a good conversation topic in general, like what you should uh share about yourself and what is okay. Uh, because there's like something with my job as well, they call it the nurse-patient relationship, and and they really don't want us to be super personable, they don't really want us to say what's going on, and and there's some obvious things, like you know, you can't just be like telling them that you're really sad and depressed because that would just kind of make sense. Uh but then there's some not so obvious things because they might be curious, they might ask you about your life. I think in a lot of ways, patients, uh, especially the ones I'm working with, are are like I work at these acute care facilities that are essentially for people in crisis, that they're they feel so unsafe that they can't exist in the outside world. So they're on a lockdown psychiatric unit because they feel unsafe to themselves or potentially to someone else. So a lot of I'm kind of starting to lose my train of soul. I'm talking about. But all right. What the hell is it talking about? It's the ADHD coming back. But uh, yeah, so like expressing like what's kind of going on, I think you can kind of let give them a little bit of a peek into your life without straight up saying this is I've had the same experience. Like I work with a lot of the kids with the ADD, ADHD, and then and the impulse and the impulsivity, which is like huge with ADHD. And Frank says that's like kind of like his crowd he likes working with. That's actually my favorite crowd to work with as well. Uh so sometimes, like, you know, they're talking about something, and then I'll kind of let them know, I'm like, hey, like, do you like do things without thinking? And then you get in trouble and you get really upset with yourself. And they'll be like, yeah, and then they'll look at me with like the look of like you kind of got like the initial. How'd you know that? Like, how do you how do you know so specifically what's going on with me? So I'm not saying like, oh, I got ADD, I got ADHD, I'm like, was jumping on tables in like middle school and doing a bunch of bullshit. Like, I don't have to, but I can kind of let them know that like, you know, just because I'm the nurse and you're the patient doesn't mean like my life is essentially perfect or like that I haven't gone through similar struggles that you you're trying to figure out, you know. So stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

I like that point because I I think humanizing like professionals or you know, like I always tell people, especially you know, kids that are like 20s, just starting to kind of get into that professional world. Like I'm very honest with them about like I had you know, when I was your age, I had no idea what the hell I was doing. Just trying to figure out all these things, like that struggle of just like what the f am I gonna do with my life? Scary thought.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:43

Yeah. And just like you have to be a per like, you know, you there's a level of like you just gotta be appropriate. And like some of it's like very commonsensical, but then like other times like doesn't seem like some people don't really have that as much. But but yeah, I mean, for me being a nurse, and I work with a lot of doctors. Sometimes I get this idea that like these doctors are, I mean, I do believe, but I I sometimes I'd like put them on this pedestal of like they're superhuman, like they're taking care of all these patients. They got like a hot wife and are super active and are like every and they're crushing and they just seem like that. And to the point, like I got a whole group of friends that were doctors in in Louisville in one of my assignments, and I was so intimidated by hanging out by them, or with them rather. And my one friend who was kind of like getting me into that friend group was like, dude, like you're good, like you're intelligent, you're funny, you're chill, like they're just people. And like I just kind of kind of made this aura around them, like that, like you know, that they they don't have a tough day or they don't have tough experiences, kind of thing. But obviously they do, we all do, but sometimes we just think there's such a big difference between you know the professional and someone seeking help, uh, that it's hard to yeah, to like relate as much or to open up as much.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:17

You know, one I obviously I want to figure out what's the similarities between your guys' jobs, but like as you guys are talking, Liam's talking more about like distracting his patients, like cracking jokes, Frank talking more about like figuring out what's going on, like the I feel like the big difference here, like to focus on the differences is like um Frank is paid for his conversation. Liam is paid for his medical care. So like Liam has this, even though Frank is more like experienced, like more qualified, Liam has this like real fun out. Like he gets to be like the fun outlet sometimes. Like I just feel like it'd be crazy if my therapist was like, let's listen to music. Like you like Frank's gotta figure these people like he's gotta ask, like, what's up with your mom, what's up with your dad, like what's you know I'm saying, he's probably gotta figure out these deeper underlying questions. And it's like it just seems like much different approaches, seems like both are important in different ways at different times. Like, um, but yeah, like just interesting to think about how different, even though you guys are both helping someone in a painful moment, just like how different the approaches actually are, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

There's so many. That's what's kind of crazy. Like when I was like first looking into getting into this field, the amount of different degrees you can get to do like almost the exact same thing is kind of crazy. It is pretty wild. So what's like almost like just adjacent?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:55

What is your approach for it? I feel like I got a good grip on Liam's approach. Um What go, why don't you go a little further into what your approach is? Like what is your goal? What is your goal in these sessions? I mean, you said to listen, but like, but in a more active way, what is the goal?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:15

Um, so you know, obviously that depends on the person, but what we usually do is at the offset, so that first time we meet, um, first we'll just, you know, kind of get to know each other a little bit, super informal, just like, what do you like? You know, what, what, who are you? What are you struggling with? Lay it all out. Um, and then we'll come up with three kind of main therapy goals of like, okay, by let's say like three months down the road, we want to. So let's say they're working on uh let's say somebody has depression. It's like, okay, by in three months, let's say that you have diminished three of those symptoms. Maybe they're so you know, you're doing it kind of scientifically of like, okay, can we measure these symptoms are still here? Can we see that there's actual change happening? So it's kind of just going through that whole process. Um, but then on the individual level, like each session, please lean. Oh, so I'm um on each one, it's uh I would say more my approach typically is to start off and leave room for anything happen that way. So like we have our overarching goals of like this is what we're working towards, but is there anything before we dive into that, is there anything immediately that's really been stressing you out? You have a test this week and that's really bothering you, and you just need to vent that out. Um, so I try and do that for the first 15, 20 minutes just to kind of you know, so they can get out and be kind of a little more present. And if there is frustration, they're kind of a little more calm. Um, and then that's when we kind of dive into and for each person, there's so many different approaches. So for kids, I would say I use more like board games and like online get, you know, car like different activities and stuff to try to teach them stuff, but you know, so they're not kids' attention spans these days are pretty brutal. Um that that's kind of rough. Um, but I would say with like my teenagers and adult patients and stuff, um a lot of it really is just talking, but it it I think it's I guess intentional talking, like there's there's a a reason for it. Like we're not just having conversation, it's like, okay, how can we get to the bottom of this? They say something, I try and reflect it back to them and say, like, is this what is this how you're feeling about this? Like, that's kind of what I heard. Is that what actually is happening? And then based off that, okay, so what does that mean for this? Where can we take this? Um honestly, I would say my biggest thing that I do is just uh providing that space to like give people time to think, you know, and and provide like a neutral non-biased feedback. That those two things right there, like all the education and all that's great. Like I think all that's super important, but when you get down to like just the bare minimum, that right there, just hey, let's spend an hour thinking about your life, what you want to do with it, uh help you figure it out, a little bit of feedback, that's cool. Because I I think none of us, not that we I mean, a lot of people don't have time for it, but I think on the other end, we just don't nobody really taught us through these things. Like it was never, you know, there's never time in school where it's like, okay, time to journal about our thoughts and meditate, and it's like that just wasn't a thing. So nobody does that. So then you hit a point in your life where you're like, what the fuck am I doing? I don't know how to handle anything or what to do. Um, so that's all it really is. Just like, hey, let's start, let's start from the beginning. Where are you at? Where do you want to be? And how can we get there?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:08

Yeah, I like that, man. I feel like that's similar of the similar approach I take to my podcast. Like, I there is a lot of value in like podcasts that are just like funny shit talking, like goofing around with the homies, but like I just for some reason I just need to ask questions that are gonna like bring value out of the conversation that are just intentional and like create meaning. Like, you know, I just don't maybe that's just what I'm better at. Like, if maybe if I was better at cracking jokes, then I could have a different style podcast, but I it wouldn't be funny, first of all. So no point of doing that shit. But like I was well, see dude, when when you're in a serious podcast and then something's funny, I feel like it's way funnier too. Like, I feel like that shit just geeks, dude, when just some you know, when just something is too funny. You can't like man, I used to have the funnest times laughing in church school, like with my friend, because we just weren't supposed to laugh, and bro, that shit just makes me laugh so hard when you're not supposed to be laughing.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:11

It's the worst time, but it's the best. Yeah, it's the worst time to laugh, but like it is also the best.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:19

Yeah, no, I appreciate that though. I think I think it's a good balance too. It's like we got to like catch up a little bit, you know, do get to joke around, but it's also like there's actually some like substance here too. There's a reason some random person would want to come watch this, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:35

Yeah, definitely to compare uh kind of Frank's approach and Tom's approach, Tom's approach to podcasting, obviously, and Frank to to therapy is like you guys are both pushing the individual you're you're kind of interviewing, because you're both interviewing someone to kind of come to a different conclusion or discover more things that's going on maybe in their brain, or like I remember the first time talking to Tom on our on the podcast, like he's he's asking these questions that are making me think more, and we're having this conversation that's more in-depth, and I don't really think I would have naturally been having unless he asked these like very good questions. And on the other end, Frank is kind of exploring the person's brain and working together with that person to kind of figure out new things. I'm sure there's times where Frank kind of figures out something new with uh someone they're working with, and then also at the same time, I'm sure him and the person he's working with will simultaneously figure out something. Like, oh wow, that's a problem. Like I never would have kind of came to that conclusion or like discovered it if we weren't having this conversation, if I didn't have this space to feel safe and talk to someone who's unbiased. So it allows people to kind of he kind of helps figure their shit out for them with them. And Tom on the other end kind of helps push these conversations into different directions that wouldn't naturally be happening.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:20

So yeah, that's why I I almost stopped doing the podcast just because like it's not my the biggest goal of my life, but like I just couldn't I'm reading all the time and listening to podcasts and stuff, but like I'm not having those conversations and like real truths get pulled out in conversation, like real insights, real understanding, real progress gets made. Like I could read a hundred books and just not learn anything new about myself, you know, or not you know what I'm saying? Just not feedback. Maybe I maybe I would, but not like the love, not to the level a conversation could really pull out of me, you know. And then there's like almost like um it's almost like you're sharing a consciousness, you know, like every it's like a mind, it's like a mind meld, you know. It's it's you're not you're like right now, we're like one of three, like one third of this group conscious being. It's not we're not individuals in this moment. You can't be. There's not enough room for you to be a full encompass the full space, you know. I'm saying you gotta share it, and it's does something. There's a there's a bigger transfer of knowledge there than just the words said, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:34

Yeah, or a little bit. Yeah. I just had an interesting thought. I feel like us three, you know, hanging out and talking, it feels like we're all uh different guitar string, and us getting together and chatting, it's kind of like tuning that guitar. And then when you strum those chords together, it's like how it should sound. Like we're kind of hitting similar wavelengths, but we're also bringing different things to the table, which I think just very interesting. Like I've learned a shit ton about Frank and his job, like just today, like talking about it. And I think uh Tom hit hitting these like heavy hitter questions really pulled out like some of those things. I work with therapists every single day. And usually my communication with them is telling their, you know, what their patients, what their behavior looks like, what their symptoms look like, if there's concerning things they're saying or doing, but it's not very often. I'm just like, so what do you what do you do? What's your approach? You know, because I don't usually I don't really have time for that, to be honest, but it's definitely been very insightful.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:42

Yeah, man, I think there's something really, really special about two person and three-person conversations. Like I think once it gets to four, it's like too many voices in the room, and two people are gonna dominate it, and like it's not it's not gonna be special anymore because no one I it just it bugs me or something when there's like a fourth guy who just doesn't say anything. I don't know why, like I don't know why I don't hate I hate it so much. But like it's gotta be even, it's gotta be an even flow of ideas, and like it's almost impossible. Very rarely have I ever seen that happen in like a four-person conversation where all four people are like equally contributing and listening and adding and and helping point the direction in one helping point the conversation to one direction, but when it's a two or a three, it's like magic, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:33

I didn't thought about that. Yeah, most four podcasts I watch, there's always one person who never talks. Yeah, right. One thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:42

But it's it's kind of cool, like uh what Tom was saying, like when it's a more serious podcast, when something funny happens or someone says something funny, it's it's that much funnier. Uh and kind of like the psychology of like the less words you say, the more impactful they are. So like the less times you're trying to be funny when you actually say something funny, it's it's way more funny. So maybe your fourth or maybe your fourth or fifth guy who doesn't say shit, sometimes he comes in with this ultimate truth, like or universal truth, you know, like and you're like, that guy never says fucking anything. And then he says something, and it and it makes it that much more impactful. But but yeah, I agree. The two, three is probably like that golden, that golden ticket.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:30

That's true. Sometimes when there's a lot of people there and they understand the dynamic, like, okay, this guy is leading the conversation, this guy is the banter, and then this guy, he only says one thing an episode, but it's always like, yo, whatever he says is important. I'm thinking like for me to bring on like three or four guests, it's just like and it's the dynamic is not ironed out, then it's like chaos, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:57

That'll be so hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:59

But um, yo, I'm gonna switch to like a more philosophical type question, but do you guys have any more just insights about that original question about like the the painful career path versus the the very like positive people that you guys are, or any more just insights about the connection between your jobs or the your your personalities before we switch over?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:31

Uh I'd say just one thing that probably me and Frank share is pretty common, is like we're bare we're both super empathetic and caring individuals. So we're talking to these people that are going through super painful information or like uh situations rather, and we're trying to kind of put ourselves in their shoes. So that being said, a lot of it can kind of take a toll on you. Uh I'm sure Frank's got his own way to decompress. I got my own way to decompress, but sometimes, a lot of times my decompression is like a lot of alone time. Like, I don't want to talk to anyone. I just I'll stare at a fucking wall for a few hours. Like, you know, like it's a lot to take care of, but yeah, that's all I got.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:19

Additionally, Dad, I I wish I didn't agree with that as much as I did. Um, because that's kind of I don't want to say it's been an issue, but it that's been a conversation me and Kayla have had a lot of like I'll get done work and then just want to sit in this room for like three hours and like make some music, play some video games. Like, and I love her, I want to talk to her, but I'm like, I've been talking to people for six hours about the most depressing shit. I don't want to talk to anybody. I don't want to talk to you, I don't want to make eye contact. Um, so that that's definitely a struggle. Uh, I see a lot of people in this field go through that, um, which is why that time for yourself is super, super important. Um, so that's that's what I would say is I think the biggest thing that I've been learning now of like finding that balance. Like it's okay to have that time to yourself, give yourself that, give yourself that break. Um, but I also can't just isolate and you know, not like there is a world out there too. Gotta remember that sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:22

Mm-hmm. For sure. I and I'd say, Frank, I mean, you've been with Kayla since college. Or where are you going on? Eight, nine years? Uh nine, I think we just hit. Nine. Okay. All right, nine. I just want to make sure I'm at least close in the ballpark. But but Frank's had this slow, growing and amazing relationship kind of develop over the years. And he he'll have, you know, he gets off work and he you almost need to isolate a little bit to kind of process everything, just your time for yourself. Uh, me on the other hand, I've just been a bachelor for years, and kind of because of my job, I'm starting to figure out more now than ever that like it's kind of hard to start something up or try to get close with someone when like you really need your time for yourself. And then I also need to be really present at work. So it doesn't really give me much space to for a new relationship to like grow and flourish. So it's like it's it's an interesting thing. It's it definitely affects your I'm working 36 hours a week, but with like the kind of recovery and decompressing and everything, it it almost feels like you're working a lot more.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:38

Takes its all on, yeah. Definitely does.

unknown 1:21:41

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:41

Yeah, for me, uh, we were in a two-bedroom and then we moved. It was a bad area though. So we moved to a more expensive area and we had to go back down to the one bedroom. And I have like an office. I'm in my office right now, it's got no door though, it's just an archway. So it's not even I don't have like space here. And that's been difficult because you don't even want to ask for alone time because you you really truly do like spending time with this other person, but then over time you realize like fuck, I haven't taken time for myself and like I don't, you know, I don't know how I feel about life right now. I don't like I had a hard time making decisions when I first moved into this apartment because I didn't know like I had a crisis of what project to work on, and it took me months to figure out because I didn't have that alone time to reflect I didn't have this any I didn't have my old office to go to, close the door and just like figure it out, you know. So it's very hard to either be like Frank split away from someone that you care about and to get alone time, or to be like Liam and to like need your alone time and try to figure out where someone else fits into that equation, you know, because Frank doesn't have to get to know Kayla either, like you're saying, like you're it takes a lot of extra time with someone to get to know them enough to commit to them. So then where where do you fit in? You know, where does your alone time fit in, you know?

SPEAKER_06 1:23:05

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:07

That's tough, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:10

Yeah, you guys ever study Thoreau, this dude that he just went to the middle of the woods and just like sat there and and like did nothing, dude, for like two years. Henry uh David Thoreau or whatever it is. Yeah, and there's a movie called In Into the Wild or something. I always wanted to see that. Yeah, with just like Liam kind of does that, like he's on his own, but then he obvious he obviously goes into work and is bombarded every day. But like I feel like I could see both of you guys doing that where like I used to write raps, and I just uh upon in high school, upon reflecting on them, they were all influenced by some other rapper or idea or something. And I was like, not a single one of my ideas are original, like not like literally zero, like even right now, I'm just regurgitating things I read in books. Like I would love to go sit in the middle of the woods for like three years and and it and then be like at that point, be like, oh, all of these ideas, they are original now. Like the whatever I would think at that point would be mine, you know. I've always wanted to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:12

That's my dream. Yeah, it's just so hard, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:15

It's hard to get out. It's too hard. Into the wild is I've I've seen the movie, I think I watch that just about once a year. And like I just it helps kind of like keep me who I am and feel comfortable in my skin, and because there's so much going on in in society, and you know, there's like the whole metaverse, and all like just there's just so much going on. And like just kind of be in one with the environment and kind of just uh immersing yourself in nature has like so many just benefits in general, but like I don't know, like it's just like a really really just like cool thing to do. I think just to be out in the woods.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:59

We need it, yeah, so good for our mental health, like especially like you're saying now. Like we just I don't know, every time I go out there and like really, really spend time in nature, it I always get hit with this feeling of like I don't know, it just seems so I don't need I don't want to use the word natural, but like it just it just seems right. It's like, oh, this I'm not stressed, I'm not overwhelmed, I'm not worried about the bills, and not it's like, oh, I can just be, and that's I don't know, it just feels like this is how you're supposed to feel. Yeah, this is what being alive is supposed to feel like. It's not supposed to be super stress intense all the time.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:38

I I feel like you just get pulled out by the uh from that network of all that connectivity you have with all these people maybe at work, or you know, you go to a coffee shop, there's a bunch of other humans doing human shit. But like when I'm out in nature, I feel like I'm more like an animal than like a human. I feel more deeply rooted in just being alive, like really just like I'm there's like a whole ecosystem just occurring like on and in my body, and like I I feel so much more in touch with that than you know, if like I'm on my phone scrolling some reels and like just getting my attention hijacked by there's evil people on social media for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:27

Something about like everything in nature like moves and like but also stays still, like it's like breathe the whole world breathes in like a consistent way, but you know, like it's it's predictable, it's reliable, but it it's not completely still. Like if you go walk on the beach, like the waves are always moving in the same way, but they're never staying still. They're you know what I'm saying, or like if like the the wind is blowing like little tree branches around, like it's there's something comforting to that, like this this like like pul the world like pulses or something in a way, you know, in a way where like if you're just in a room, it's just like still, it's like really still, you know, and like that's not something about that not is not good.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:16

I see what you're saying, actually. It's almost like because I was thinking of like music and art and how we like those because we like patterns, and it's like okay, when you see the world, like you said, there's you know the four seasons, there's like these things are predictable, you know what that pattern's gonna look like. So that's why we like art and stuff, because it's like, okay, I I understand this. This my brain likes this. So when we're in this little box and we're not in that sort of rhythm of life all around us, it's like I don't know, we're not getting that same stimulation. It's there's that disconnect there.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:51

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I I think when you uh immerse yourself just in in nature or out in the woods or whatever. That may look like you you get kind of out of your own world and like kind of more in touch with the actual world. Like you just feel smaller, you feel like you know, like everything's gonna kind of exist after you're gone and everything. Like like trees, like fucking are crazy. Like that's that's like one thing, like here they are. They're just like one thing that kind of sticks around for like hundreds of years are like sometimes just like trees. Like I travel all over the country and like I remember like a certain spot and and whatever, and like everything will change around it. The construction will like change around it, the street signs, the roads, you know, a lot of man-made kind of things change, but I'll roll up to like damn, this is that same tree, like ten years later. Like my my buddy, like, he we drove across the country together, and or he was driving across the country and he buried uh I don't know if it's appropriate, but he pr he buried a little joint in front of this tree. And then this was five years ago, he did that. And then we traveled to the same spot together, he found the tree, and he burnt, and like the little joint, it was in a little like tube was just poked up out of the ground, and like he like scooped it up. I mean, maybe that doesn't isn't really relevant to anything I'm saying, but like but like the tree, the like the trees are just like they're always gonna kind of be there, and everything's gonna exist, and we're just kind of like really just kind of little specks, and like we're you know, getting it more immersed in like the actual world compared to our own world. So I I think you know it's very beneficial for your mental health, but there's uh plenty of studies saying it's good for your blood pressure, it's it's good for your heart rate, it's good for your breathing. Um, I just read a whole book about people just hanging out in the woods, essentially. And uh it was a Japanese-based book, like a lot of uh Japanese scientists in in uh Japan talking about like forest bathing. It's called uh Shorin Yoku, which is Japanese for forest bathing. And they talk all about it extensively, like these doctorate students going in the woods and and walking around for like a half hour and like rating their stress levels, rating their level of anxiety, like you know, like doing a bunch of tests to see kind of where they're at. And it's just like time and time again, it there's a million studies that are just showing that like it's good for you, like it's not natural. It's we kind of grew up or like the human evolved through nature, and like us to like kind of cut it out and being like a concrete jungle is for some people they excel and it's it's totally fine, but it you kind of need to be in touch with nature. I it that's in some capacity for you to probably have the best well-being that you could potentially have.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:17

Yeah, first of all, I just want to say I love nature, but fuck bugs. I really, I really hate bugs. So just like mosquitoes, all that shit, I could do without those. So can we just like you know, I like my screen and porch I because uh there's no bugs over there, you know. I get the wind. So I just want to say there is some things to not like yeah, there's some there's a lot of mosquitoes in my neighborhood, and they piss me off, bro. I hate them. Uh, but you know, they're part of nature, so whatever. I'll sure. But um, but also I feel like I feel like we need like convertible, you know how the car has like the the convertible window or like just even the window. Like I feel like we need transparent ceilings. Like, I feel like we need the sun like over our head. Like I feel like there's something important in the stars at night. Like I feel like we need to live in like glass domes or something. Maybe you could like change just like that one little like window on your car, you can slide it if you want. I feel like we're very visual creatures, like you know, if we just you know, it's it's nice to feel the wind on your face and stuff, but like if we could just see, if we could just live in domes and just see the nature, it would do it, it would almost get us there, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:32:34

Yeah. Well, one thing that's kind of interesting, and I'm sure Frank kind of knows about it a little bit as well, but just how melatonin works, you know, it's a natural hormone in your body, it's released when it gets dark out. Um, people, you know, take the supplement to add melatonin so they can fall asleep better. But it kind of just shows like that is built into us. When the sun goes down, our body releases melatonin, we get sleepy. Uh, some unnatural things that kind of been developed, and you know, it's probably a different conversation altogether, but like how quickly technology has uh advanced. But like us just looking at our cell phones, that white light doesn't allow the melatonin to release the way it's supposed to. That's why they say if you're getting ready for bed, put your phone away like an hour before you go to bed, so you can have that natural sleep cycle and slip into into like a restful state.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:37

Yeah, also like I always just I I'm I stay up late, I still have this problem, right? But like I always just thought that like you could stay up late, wake up late. Like sometimes my first meeting is at noon, right? So I thought there was nothing wrong with going to bed at like four in the morning waking up at noon, because like I still get the same time frame of sleeping, but apparently it's not like like you if if you are on your phone from 11 p.m. to like 3 a.m. It's like very, very bad. You get depressed apparently. And like if you're if you're sleeping at 11 before like around 11 p.m. that sleep is better qual quality sleep than the sleep at 4 a.m. I don't know why, like, I don't know why, but like apparently so I've been trying real hard to get on the right schedule. Um it's difficult for me, but like that there's something to matching your sleep cycle to when it's actually dark versus just like picking picking a different time frame to sleep, even if you're sleeping the right amount of time, which I didn't know. Um that's weird.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:42

That is that's pretty interesting and to piggyback off that. Like with me and uh you know, hospitals are 24 hours, so I'm a day nurse. I work from 6 a.m. to 6 30 p.m. But my counterpart, the night shift nurse, which I've done before, they come in at 6 30 p.m. and then they don't leave till 6 a.m. the next day. And some people can kind of handle it better than others. Some people prefer that night shift and are seemingly unaffected. I did it for two years, but I remember two weeks in, I was like, I something's gotta give. I think I'm gonna have a breakdown. Like my body is rejecting this sleep cycle completely. I'm not happy, I'm kind of irritable, kind of a dick. Um, and I remember when I switched back to days or finally got on to days, I was like, I can't do anything else but days. Like this, I I can't do nights. Like that's just not natural, especially for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:50

Damn. Yo, I uh before Liam's gotta go, I there's some philosophical questions. I this was a cool combo, so I didn't want to stop it. But like um last time you last time you guys both were on probably separately, I like to ask uh like the what what's the meaning of life, stuff like that. So I've been reading a lot, I told you, or not reading directly, because it's hard, but I've been studying like um Plato, and Socrates is like actually like one of his characters, it's kind of confusing, but like Socrates is in his in the Plato's dialogues is always asking people uh like what is virtue? Like what uh essentially like what is a good what makes a person a good person? So you guys to me seem like really good people, but like I don't know why, like I don't know, I don't know why that is. So what do you guys think like is makes a person a good person? What do you think constitutes like a good life lived?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:54

Oh man. That's uh something I've been trying to figure out for a long time, and I still have no fucking clue. Yeah, um, I don't know, I always think back to like like you know that show you on Netflix? Yeah. He like you know, he puts on this whole persona, he's this great guy, he's super confident, he like goes out his way for people, and then he's like this fucking psychopath who's killing all these people in the shadows. So it's like I don't know. I I struggle with that because I to some extent I feel like people are very good at either hiding parts of themselves or you know what I mean? Like, we're we're really good at showing who we want to be seen as. Um, and we're all guilty of that. I know I definitely am. Um so I don't know. I I've kind of came to the conclusion of like, I don't know if I can see anybody as a good or bad person, like definitively, but the way I see it is I try to strive to just just be a little bit better today. You know, if I fucked up a little bit yesterday, wasn't doing what I was supposed to do, maybe I'm a little more focused today. Maybe I'm a little nicer to kill today. Because that's all I can do. I can't change what I've done in the past. I can't think 10 years ahead of all these grand things I want to do. Only thing I have control over is how I'm acting today, how I treat people in my life. Um and that that's what I think people's focus should be. Like what can you control? And what I don't I don't want to say how do you want to be seen, but like what I don't know, what do you want to what do you want to make of this time? Like, do you want to be remembered as somebody who was always there for their friends and was kind? And um so I don't know, that's what that's what drives me to make those decisions. Of like, I don't I don't know if I would say, oh, I'm a good person or bad person, but I would say I'm striving to be a better person, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:57

Yeah, yeah, I think um a good person is like, you know, there's one more chicken nugget left and you split it down the middle, and there's always there's never going to be a perfect split. I think if you offer and not only offer, but truly want the other individual to have the bigger nugget, that makes it that makes it a good person. No, I'll give you a better answer. But I feel like for like a little kid, listen if a little kid was like listening to this conversation, they'd be like, damn, that's some that's some truth right there. I I'll split that that stegosaurus, dinosaur, chicken nugget in half, and he gave me the whole the whole back and the tail. He didn't have to do that, you know. But uh I do think that to piggyback all Frank was saying, like, I think you know, life is the most fascinating or the the best skill humans have is our endless ability to learn and grow, and in this conversation, this question uh better ourselves. You can make yourself out to be some sort of person, uh, and people can perceive you in a kind of way, and you you try to have them perceive you in a kind of way. But the only person I think that can decide if you're a good person, because like I was thinking, you know, uh, if you're a good person or not, that's decided by the majority of people that you ask, right? I think the best person to figure out if you're a good person or not is yourself because you can lie to other people, but you can't really lie to yourself. You gotta be honest with yourself. You can put your best foot forward and show that, or you can just take a normal step. You know, you can just put a foot forward. Try to be authentically yourself. And uh, you know, if you're at the grocery store and you you scan an avocado and then write it as like an onion, a white onion, which is only like 30 cents versus like two dollar avocado. Maybe I've done that. Like, does that make me a bad person? Some people think like maybe a little bit, but I think it's an accumulation of everything you're doing. I think you know, what Frank said, stealing his answer, just you're continuously, continuously trying to better yourself. Like that's that's I think if you become content and you're just like, I am a good person, that's that's maybe fine and deity, but you might not be the best version of yourself. And and it's like pro like I had a someone I used to work with and I stuck with me. Some people have catchphrases that you kind of steal, but he used to say, like, it's progress, not perfection. You know, don't beat yourself up over the perfection, but like you're making progress. You all there's always gonna be room for improvement, which I think is kind of a beautiful thing of life.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:11

Yo, I actually like the first answer you gave, one of the best ones, though, because there's something more tangible there where you're talking about equality, right? Cutting that chicken nugget in half uh is some is something that like it's a more tangible takeaway than when you guys are saying to better yourself, like that depends on the person's goals, you know. So like if your goal is to be successful, you might be the type of person that's always bettering himself to make more money. Doesn't I don't think that means you're a good person necessarily. Sure. I think that I think that Frank probably has goals to better himself in a virtuous way, but I don't think that that's an adequate answer. To be honest. So maybe elaborate maybe for elaborate then, Frank.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:06

I see what you're saying. Um it's a tough one then. Because I I was thinking about what you were saying, Liam, with the if you say you're a good person, I don't know, that to me like if somebody says they're a good person and like definitively I feel like that I don't know, I feel like we all have things about ourselves that aren't ideal. You know, I can look at so many yeah, I have I have some virtuous traits, but I have a lot of very selfish traits too. Like a lot. And I they're in front of my face constantly. That's all I see a lot of the time. You know, that's so for me, I guess it's it's seeing those parts of yourself that like I think a good person is willing to admit that they're not they're not the best person. Like I I guess it's just owning up to where you fall flat and being honest with that. Um I don't know. That's a that's a tough question. I honestly I've been thinking about it a lot, and I I haven't been able to come to a conclusion because I I just don't know. Like I I I can't be definitive with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:25

Yeah, it seems like on top of equality, like honesty seems to be another truth that's deriving out of your guys' examples and opinions, like being honest, like Liam was saying, if you're in the grocery store and you could change the price or something, but that's not the honest thing to do, or then you guys are also talking about being honest with yourself about your flaws. It's probably the only way to make any progress in this direction towards being a good person or the best person you can be. Just on but honesty across the board seems to be something important here. Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:14

I don't know, man. It's um it's one of those things where I don't I don't know if we'll ever have like a like for sure. You know, this this is it, we're good, but um, I don't know. That's my mind just can't keep going in circles on it.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:32

It's it's really yeah, I'm going in circles too. It's really interesting because you can be no everyone has skeletons in their closet. No one knows more about the skeletons in your closet than yourself. So you have everything in there to try to better yourself and being honest with your actions, being honest about how you are, but then you have your own perception of what you're doing and of what you're thinking or doing is right. But then that might just not be you're not doing the right things, but you think you are, you know, at the same time, because that then that just like fucks everything up. If you don't really have like, like, oh, is my perception like actually like like I think I'm doing good. I think striving to do good, maybe, or working really hard and trying to do the right thing in every scenario could be a good answer because at the same time, even if you're trying, you might not know if you're doing the the correct thing. But I think maybe trying your hardest down.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:39

I feel like that's I feel like that's why the idea of God is so powerful and like why so many religions have something like a God, because they're trying to answer this question of what makes someone good, and like you're saying, like at one point someone was talking about like legacy, like, oh, don't you want to be remembered as this? But you could be a bad person and still trick everyone and have a positive legacy, you know. But this idea, this idea of God, some being that knows everything that you do, seemed to help people with the idea of being good when no one else was watching. Like it seems like this idea of being good when no one else is watching is part of the key here, right? You know, or or in and I think that's why we put so much emphasis on something that knows everything. I think it helps align, it must help align people in ways. I don't I don't think everyone needs that idea, but it seems like a lot of people do need that idea in order to be a good person, which is not necessarily bad.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:45

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:47

There's like a lot of gaps and holes in our life. And philosophers like to ask the questions, they don't necessarily have the answers, but the ideal philosophy is asking all these questions that we can't really know that are for sure. But then where God and religion kind of comes in, they're like, hey, this kind of fills those holes and those and those gaps. Like we we got God to to kind of let us know judgment day, like if we're good or bad, he he was watching the whole time. He can tell us what's good, he can make that decision.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:25

Yo, that's one more thing I was gonna ask. Uh the if we have time, Liam. If we don't, just let me know. But you were saying philosophers ask all the questions. Um what what philosophical questions are you guys the most interested or have been interested in the past? Because I usually think of fun questions to ask people, but like you guys I know also think this way. So what what which questions do you guys like to ponder?

SPEAKER_06 1:48:59

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:02

I actually got a minor philosophy, but I feel like it just doesn't show at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:08

Bro, I've just read a bunch of books and I forget like most of what I just read, so yeah, I like literally can't even think of half of the shit I just read. So I don't know where it goes. It just like in one ear, out the other, but I I like it in the moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:22

That's a hard one. I I think I mean honestly you go, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:29

Okay, all right. Uh I was just like, I don't know if it's like that much of a philosophical question. It's like, does any does any of it matter? Does like literally anything matter? Like I think about that a lot. I'm like, nothing really matters. You're good, you're bad, or whatever. You die and then you're gone. Life goes on, no matter if we're here or not. Like, like none of it really. Sometimes I get caught up into that, and then I think, well, you like the only reason it matters is like your perception. You make things matter. You like you have like a you try to live a life that makes you feel complete. You might like kind of live through, like, you know, we want to reproduce, like maybe like our legacy lives on through our children, and then that makes it feel like it matters more. But I I'd say maybe my question would just be like, does any of it matter?

SPEAKER_02 1:50:37

Right, because from a from a scientific perspective, the answer is no. None of it matters, like none of it was like there was no purpose behind it all. It was just random shit, evolution just happened, and then like then there's no meaning to it, which yeah, it's a completely valid perspective to have.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:57

Damn, you stole my quiet. You stole my answer. No, you gladly. Yeah, he did. Um, I don't know. I've been thinking about that a lot recently too. Um, and on kind of, I don't know if it's the same point, but kind of adjacent of just like, what's the point? Right? Like what, especially when it comes to suffering, you know, like we've been talking about with a lot of my patients, and see them go through just like, you know, the darkest shit you can imagine. It's just like, how are you going through this? Like what gets you through that? Why I don't know. I always struggle with the idea of just like all these horrible things that happen. Like, what what is the point of all that suffering? You know, like when I see somebody really going through it, it just feels so hopeless and pointless sometimes. But I I kind of agree with what you're saying, Liam. Of like, I feel like we kind of have to create our own meaning there and find our own point to it. So for me personally, kind of like what I said earlier, like I've found my meaning, my purpose, whatever you want to call it, um, and just doing my sort of work. So that's where, like, that's where I find my value. You know, I I can look at all of it and say, okay, yeah, maybe there's no real point to this, it's all kind of whatever. Um, but I can take my dark shit and help somebody else through dirt their dark shit, which gives a reason to my dark shit. If I just went through it for nothing and nothing came from it, it's just like, damn, I just fucking suffered for what? Just to suffer. But if I can take something with that and kind of make something out of it, um, that's kind of how I see art and stuff too, right? It's like you take that thing and it's like, let me transform it, let me make something beautiful out of this shit.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:56

It's like yeah, like getting a you know, a dog turd you found on the sidewalk, you plant it, and it turns into a tree somehow, you know, like kind of like that. That's how I feel. But yeah, no, I think uh kind of go off of that. It's hard to kind of say what I was gonna say now, but um, yeah, does it does it really matter? And I think there's gotta be a balance of how much things you let things matter to you and their impact on you. Like it seems like some of the happiest people in the world don't give a fuck. You know, they they say things like, I just don't care, I don't give any fucks. And I've kind of given my own like kind of philosophical speeches to people, and I say that, you know, we in this world, some people get more than others, but we only get in a certain we get a certain amount of fucks that we can give. And if we're giving out these fucks left and right, willy-nilly, when something comes around that we really need to care about that is important, we may not have any more fucks to give. So I think kind of like finding that balance of like putting emphasis on the right things that do matter to us. And you know, if you have go through such terrible suffering, and you have an inability to kind of plant that dog turd and and uh turn it into a tree, and you kind of can't get out of that mindset, it does start to feel like all this suffering is is here for nothing. Uh, you know, what kills what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, but like also like what doesn't kill you probably just causes you a bunch of trauma and PTSD and comes out in different parts of your life when you grow up, and and Frank tries to navigate that with people, but but yeah, just trying to make a point of of what the suffering, like how you can kind of grow from it if you can. And that's that's what you can only hope for, really.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:02

Yeah, dude, another question that kind of pairs with like the does it matter question is like, do we have free will, right? Like, is it all self-determined? Like if there is a God, or just if like it all is kind of set in stone, like then does it matter what I want to do with my life, or is it just gonna happen the way it's gonna happen?

SPEAKER_06 1:55:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:25

And then if it already like, like they say all there is is the present moment, right? Like all like so if it all is the present moment, then the future is now and it's already gonna happen the way it's gonna happen, then does it even matter to does it even matter to to worry about it or to think about it or to maybe I should just be like those people that don't give a fuck, you know? Maybe that is the most appropriate mindset to have towards it all.

SPEAKER_06 1:55:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:56

I think it depends what you want, right? You know, like I I think a lot of us like my phone dying.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:05

Yeah, wait, Liam, do you have to go to your concert now?

SPEAKER_04 1:56:09

Yeah. Oh yeah, that's right. How do you know how I'm still on the phone?

SPEAKER_02 1:56:20

Frank, do you want to keep talking or do you want to oh yeah, um I'll finish my answer. Um I do want to go on a little bit. Yeah, let's say bye to Liam and then talk for like 10-15 more minutes. Is that cool? That's cool. I was thinking of going until seven-ish. So perfect. Is Liam here or is he gone? Liam. I think he's gone. Alright, well, bye, Liam. He's entered. He's I think he's gone. Let's talk for like 15 more minutes though, and then we'll wrap it up.

SPEAKER_06 1:56:55

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:55

What were you saying? Um I was talking about free will.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:05

Yes, okay. Um wait, so we were talking about free will, and then we went to Oh, it's just what I talking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:16

I can't remember what I was on a rant about. Okay, no, you said I think it depends on how you want to view it. Or you said it depends.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:22

Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. So the way that I see it is it depends what you want to get out of life, and I think that's what we gotta figure out first, right? So if if we come to the conclusion that nothing really matters, it's all just kind of happening. It's like it is, and whatever. And then we have a certain amount of fucks to give. So it's like, okay, we're here. If we're gonna be here, you know, we're just somehow we got here, we don't know how whatever. But like, let's the way I see it is kind of just like, well, let me just like what what do I want to experience while I'm here? You know, what and with that, that kind of takes me, okay, then what is meaningful to me? What brings me fulfillment? What brings me joy? What makes me like what what sorts of things can I do where I get that feeling that I want to experience? Um, and I I think we complicate that a lot. Like, I think we make it seem like there's a way you're supposed to do it, and there's uh, you know, if you're not doing it this way, you're you're really missing out, or you shouldn't do that. It's like if it doesn't matter, who cares? Like, yeah, I I mean there's obviously things you should do, you shouldn't be going and killing people and shit, but um as long as you're not harming other people, I don't see what the problem is with just following that intuitive. Like, why not make the most of this, you know?

SPEAKER_03 1:58:57

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:00

Yeah, it almost is like um I think Jordan Peterson says that uh he doesn't necessarily believe his in God, but he lives his life as if God were real, right? Um it's almost like saying, I don't know if it matters, but I like to live my life as if it does. Right. Just in case. Yeah, but even if it even if it doesn't, it it brings me happiness or joy or whatever. It gives me purpose to live as if it does matter.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:35

Yeah. So I think I think that comes from too, like, like if you can take that approach and figure out so like once you figure out what you want to do, then that like going from that angle gives you the ways to do it in a way that's like I don't know, it just keeps you on that line. You know, like we all have things we want to do, we all have people we want to connect with, whatever. And a lot of times, you know, we either end up self-sabotaging or end up going down the wrong route and completely missing where we want to go because we kind of because we're not following living by that way. Um, so I think the point of living that way is to enjoy that. Like, I feel like it's gotten reversed. A lot of people fear God, they see him as this all-seeing evil, if you mess up, you're gonna go to hell and it's gonna be awful. And it's like, that sounds awful. I don't want to live my life in fear of that. Like, if I'm gonna believe in a God that is gonna watch all my actions and there is gonna be a consequence, like, I'd rather that be, I don't know, I'd rather use that as a motivating force to enjoy what I have as opposed to what it feels like a lot of times is like uh it's almost the opposite. Like, most of my life growing up in the Catholic Church, I feel like I lived out of fear. And it's only recently where I've seen that and been like, oh, this is not this is not a healthy way to live. Like I'm most of my decisions are based on fear of depercussion instead of love for what I actually want to do with my life.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:23

Yeah, I think that that's kind of why I've been pulled towards philosophy recently, is because like um like the church and religion kind of has this like good and bad dichotomy, like like you're the angel on your on your one shoulder wants you to do good things, the devil on your left wants you to do bad things or to be a bad person, and you gotta like resist these two pulls on you. Where like I think Aristotle describes it as like the first step is obviously knowledge, knowing what's right versus what's wrong. But once you know the right thing to do, there's like four types of people the virtuous person that does the right thing, the person lives with vice who knows the right thing to do, but is comfortable doing the wrong thing. Then there's the incontinent person that struggles to do the wrong the right thing and they end up doing the wrong thing, and then there's the continent person that struggles to do the right thing and then they end up doing the right thing. And we're all kind of on that spectrum of those four at any for for diff it's not like four people, it's like for different things, we're at one of those four stages with it, right? And so the goal is obviously to uh know to do the right thing and then to do the right thing, but it's not like this struggle, like it's actually he breaks it down, it's more of habit, like you create the habit of doing of doing the right thing and then becomes easier, you know, and you don't have to struggle necessarily if you build in virtuous habits, which is something that just connected with me in this current age because I'm very focused on when I when I was very focused on being successful, which I still am, like I was focused on um creating habits that would lead to success, and now that I'm slightly focusing on virtue, I'm like, oh, there's this aligns with my other theory, which you can build habits of being a good person into your life. Liam, I thought you would be gone, man. What's up?

SPEAKER_05 2:03:24

Surprise, bitches. I'm back. I I didn't want to be welcome back. Like that abrupt with my goodbye.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:34

So yeah, I was kind of just coming back to just say goodbye, but not to like yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:40

Well, well, thanks so much, dude, for for coming on and sharing.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:46

Enjoy the concert, man.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:48

Thanks, homies. Yeah, yeah, man. The group think with you and Frank was excellent. It was exactly what I thought it would be and and and really needed for me personally. So I appreciate you being here, man. Me too. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:02

Thanks for having me. Uh, just an incredible conversation with you guys. I love you both a whole lot. I miss both of you guys a whole lot. Thank you, man. And it's it's really just been a lot of fun. Uh just like kind of stepping away from this podcast. Like I feel like full, you know, in in a good way, not a gay way, uh, or whatever. Uh, but you know, no, we we filled you up, buddy. I feel like my cup I feel like my cup, my cup is full. Like y'all are just like some absolute homies, and it's it's so nice to connect, and especially on the podcast platform, it's it's been a lot of fun. Jelings are mutual, man.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:52

More of the mutual.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:54

Further ado, I'll select go, guys. See ya, man. Peace out.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:02

That was dope. Um, there's one more question I wanted to ask you specifically, but did you have any anything anything to add about that? I we I was on a rampage with so I don't know if you have anything to say, but about the other conversations. Um I'm trying to think of how you ended it. It was I was talking about like these four stages of like from vice to virtue that Aristotle came up with, and and how being a good person is a lot of building in those virtuous habits, not necessarily always struggling, like like uh the like the religious um mentality is like there's always this devil on your left trying to pull you into the wrong direction, where in reality once you know the right thing to do, you can build in a habit structure into your life where there's it's not this constant struggle between good and evil. Yeah, it's it's more nuanced than that.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:03

I think it's um it's tough because I think especially so I was just thinking about stuff like you know addiction and stuff like that, where it's it's really, really hard to break those habits, like they're so ingrained in you, like in your DNA. Um and how even over long time periods, like you can be sober for 50 years, and if you have that one drink, you can be right back on the wagon. Um when I think of stuff like that, it I don't know, it it complicates it for me, but I think I like what you're saying with the habits because I think that's the right way to think about it. I remember seeing some quote, I can't remember what it is, but something like people it was saying something about like good people aren't they're not doing good things, they like built good habits or something. It's like doing the right thing every single day, right? It's not just once or twice, every now and then, every moment you're faced with that opportunity, you're doing what you should, we think is the right thing. Um, and then like it's complicated when you know, sometimes not not clear that gray area, what is the right thing to do? That whole classic scenario of the the guy who steals bread to feed his family. It's like, is that right? Is that wrong? I don't know. Um unfortunately in this world, a lot of people are in situations that kind of is almost a lose-lose where like there is no right scenario. And that I really feel for those people, man. I I feel I've been lucky enough to have a really good support system, have a good family that like when I hit those patches, when I get stuck, when I don't know what to do, you know, I can turn to them, get some advice, get some feedback. Um, I feel like a lot of people are in situations where they they don't have that choice, and it's like they're doing what they can to survive. And I don't know if I can say they're a bad person for that. You know what I mean? Like I I just struggle to know I wasn't in that situation, and I don't know what I would have done in that situation.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:24

Yeah. No, I think probably the real answer to like, hey, why are you and Liam good people? I mean, most of it is probably because you were raised in a in a good way and you had good examples of good people, and it's a lot of it's a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with the choices that you've made. It's just yeah, the way that you were raised, you know? Um and a lot of people who are living who are quote bad people had bad parents that set a bad example or taught them conflicting things and they didn't they don't they don't know. So I think it comes down to when you know what the right thing to do is, you do that, and it's complicated because not everyone knows the right thing to do, and so we're all judged on like this different scale, to be honest. Like, and that's it comes back to Liam saying you gotta do what you know and judge yourself because someone who grew up with terrible examples of how to be a good person needs it needs to probably be judged on a different scale than someone like you and me who had examples of of the right thing to do, you know. So it's mad complicated actually. Um, but I guess everyone can get educated on what the right thing to do is too. And I I mean there are people who had bad parents who are good people, and so as time goes on, like as you get older, it becomes more and more, I think, your responsibility to to to educate yourself or to find figure out what's right and wrong, you know. Um for sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:13

Yeah, we all we all have that responsibility, I think. Um and it like you said, it it's muddied, but I think eventually we not all people, but a lot of people get to a point where they kind of do face that road of like, do I want to continue going down this path or do I want to try something different, see if I can't get out of this. Super hard, obviously. But um, I think it is good, like you said, important to acknowledge that like for a lot of people that are in a really good place, a lot of those factors were completely out of their control. And the same to the opposite of a lot of people in really shitty sit situations, a lot of that was out of their control too. And there's everything in between too, but you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:57

Yo, if we run out of time, just let me know. But I was thinking the one last thing I would like to ask you right now is um about this Rick Rubin book. Like you mentioned it, we didn't really talk about it, but if you want maybe talk about that for like five minutes and then we'll we'll wrap it up. But like it's it's I think it's important to talk about books specifically near the time frame you read them, because if I ask you that if we do another podcast a year from now, it's gonna be gone. So I have not finished it yet. I will preface with that. But that's an even better time to talk about a book too when you're still in the middle of learning it, you know? Yeah, because I read that book, I just thought, man, Frank needs this, bro. This is this is some info uh that I feel like he'll really resonate with because I mean, even though you are a therapist, I think at the end of the day you view yourself as an artist, you know, and so whether you're making music right now or not, I think that's just kind of how you think of yourself. So that book really was um a book for artists to Kind of have guidance in the creative process and and kind of how to think about ideas and go about being productive and all sorts of like really good. It's just like they say uh Akanya has this one quote, Rick Rubin's on a producer, he's a producer, right? Um I think Yesus was like two, three hours long when Rick Rubin came in, narrowed it down to like 40 minutes, you know, and it's just per every moment's perfect, right? And he's done that for a lot of artists. I just that's my favorite example. Um but Jesus Christ, this dude has like got 50 years of wisdom in the music industry, and this is the one of the shortest books, just so it's so every single sentence is like compact with wisdom and like very important and very much worth reading a couple times. Like uh, I don't know how he boiled down all of his wisdom. And and the one other thing is like whenever you read a book by someone who's like as famous as him or as work who has worked with as many people as him, you're gonna get a lot of um well, first I worked with this famous artist. I I expected it to be like first I worked with this famous artist, first I then I worked with this artist, like almost a biography, or even like like I read a book by the Pixar guy, right? And it was just like we were working on Toy Story, then we were working on Honey Nemo, and he'd and then he would go make points about these lessons that he'd learned during these things, but it you know, it's I feel like it's impossible to resist talking about these crazy things you did, because then it makes the reader go, like, oh wow, like he did a lot of shit. But like Rick in Rick's book, he doesn't mention any of the fucking things he did at all. Like he just boils it down to the wizard. He like takes away all of the story, like he mentions it sometimes, but in some of the few stories he mentions, it's not even the stuff he directly did. It's like others, it's like other stories from the music industry, so it's like it's so humble, it's like all the braggadocio, even I mean, it's not even bragging for him to tell just the things he did, but like he basically removed every bit of like reality from the book, and it's just like straight up creative wisdom, and it's like whoa, it's a lot to take in. It's kind of crazy. So I've read a couple books since then, so it's not even as fresh in my mind. So, what like um what are you thinking? What has been useful for you?

SPEAKER_00 2:14:27

I I was really thinking what you were saying about um what I really love about him is I think he he is super, super, super down to earth. That's what I've noticed in every conversation I've seen him with. Like, he doesn't care about how he looks, he doesn't care about like all that superficial shit. He's just like, we're here, let's let's be with each other, let's be present, let's be genuine. It's he like just his embodiment and how he approaches art is everything that I strive to be. Like somebody that, like you said, been insanely successful, but like doesn't even mention that success when he is probably the most prolific uh producer in our you know the last 50, 60 years. That's crazy. I would be telling everybody and I think I'm kind of humble. Like that's crazy to me. You know, I get like a like on SoundCloud and I'm telling everybody. Like this man is like, I can't imagine how humble he actually is to be in that position and to not I don't know, it's stuff like that that just just that uh raw humanness of him. That's what I appreciate so much because that he talks so much about that in the art and just I just love this whole philosophy of just basically not not really trying with things and just uh like his whole thing about just trusting your gut and just being like so much on like to a T without like just full trust in that a hundred percent. I I just think that's incredible because I I believe that, I really do. I think all of us when we actually do trust that gut and follow it, I think it takes us where we need to be, but a lot of us doubt it. Um I doubt myself all the time, and every time that I don't, I like amaze myself. You know, it's like, oh shit, I didn't I was capable of that. But most of the time I'm I'm almost afraid of that. Like I have this weird like fear of success I've I've learned over the years of like when I start doing well, something in my brain kicks in and it's like, whoa, slow down, buddy, you're doing a little too good there. Like, you know, gotta take a step back. Um, and it's it's almost this like uh I don't uh deserve to do well or something. I don't know. That's that's something I've been working on lately, but a lot of his teachings have really helped me with that of like trust yourself, man. You you know what you're doing. And it's at the end of the day, too, uh it's not uh for anybody else. And that's where I've gotten lost a lot. You know, I want to make that big hit, I want to I want to make money with music, I want to be this big producer. Um but at the end of the day, uh like I make music for me. You know, it's uh dealing with some pain that my patient just brought out, and it opened up all these old memories from my childhood. Or and it's like trying to deal with that just emotional roller coaster of like, let me just you know, get this beat machine out and just start hitting shit, and maybe I'll feel something. And that that connects things for me in a way that I haven't experienced with anything else. And just the way that he talks about that and like the whole process of that, I don't know. It's such a I I've never seen anybody capture that magical feeling in such a concise way.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:15

I some I don't know if I got this from the book or his interviews, probably both, but like something he says that I believe is that whenever he sits down for a project, he gives his whole self to that moment. Yes. Um, and like I relate for me, uh I've realized, like I said, I hated the editing of the podcast, so I'm trying to avoid that, but I realized I still need the conversations, and I I've also taken away the kind of like the pressure for this podcast to be successful. I'm not I want to reach success in other ways, so I'm like, why do I still need the why should I just call up Frank and Liam and fucking talk to him? But like for me, pressing the record button forces me to give my full self. Like if we were just talking on the phone, like I might be looking at Instagram or my like not not not too much, but like I just might get distracted a little bit, you know? Where I feel like Rick gives him he truly can give him full self to every person or project he's working on in the moment, that um this is like a little training wheels for me, but that's something that I feel like is deeply important about his method, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:30

Yeah, I like that because I'd I'd noticed a lot of times with whether it's counseling, music, you know, anything that I care about that I'm trying to do, if I'm even slightly distracted, I'm not gonna excel at that thing. You know, like if I'm in the middle of a therapy session and I'm thinking about the next patient or what I'm gonna eat for lunch, or and that happens a lot with ADHD, of course, but um I constantly have to come back. But it and I agree with what you're saying, like hitting that record button and knowing, okay, this could be seen by people. Like I want to be my best self. It yeah, it's scary, but it's cool because it's like, okay, well then I'm gonna be paying attention, I'm going to be ready to have that answer and give it the best answer that I think I can give.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:18

Yeah, and I think podcasting, what you do for a living, and what Rick does, which is like kind of be like a therapist for musicians. I feel like if you're not fully present, the other person can pick up on it, which then that's bad. Like, you know, if you if you need therapy and you're like, I don't think my therapist is like really paying attention, you know, like that's gonna be worse than if you didn't have therapy. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 2:20:46

Like that's you just feel like shit.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:47

Yeah, yeah. And same thing, like for you and Liam are I think responding better, knowing that I'm fully listening, and I think Rick get gets the best. His job is basically to get the best performance out of the artist, which would be completely invalidated if if he didn't give them full attention when he was working with them, you know? Yeah, so it's like something about just collaborating in general. It's like um maybe I could ask the same exact questions today if I was thinking about other things, kind of, but I wouldn't get the best answers out of you guys. You wouldn't the the vibes would be just diminished by a small margin, which it it wouldn't be the best podcast, the best conversation, you know. And for what Rick, what Rick does that really matters the probably more than anything, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:36

So um I was just thinking about I remember reading um I think it was Anthony Gides' book from The Chili Peppers, and he was talking about when they wrote I think it was Blood Sugar Sex Magic. I'm pretty sure Rick helped with that whole album. He took them to some house or some like estate or something where they stayed for like a month, and just that's all they did was just play music. Um, and before that, they were really struggling, they were just kind of doing the same thing over and over, and it just that simple change in environment, a new scenario, you're not seeing the same things that you're always seeing, different stimuli, you're not in the headspace you're always in. Um I don't know. I I think what I seem to notice with him is uh his things are always so profound, but they're also so simple. It's always like the simplest change of just like just switch it up a little bit. Just you know, like all these little things that make uh the biggest difference, but it uh I think it's just his attention to detail of like seeing what factors impact things, what distracts people, what helps people feel comfortable, and like like how do people make their best music when they're comfortable, when they're relaxed? How can I set up that optimal environment for that?

SPEAKER_03 2:23:03

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:04

Yeah, I think one of the best examples of of like just like the Chili Peppers moving houses to get a different vibe going is like uh I love the example of like the Beatles, the Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart Club band. They pretended they pretended like they were a different band to make that album, you know. They totally took on a different persona, you know what I'm saying, for this project to help mix it up, you know? And like I kind of expected, you know, it's not easier, but I kind of expected Rick to have a bunch of cool tips on how to get started, but he also had good tips on like how to finish, like very tangible tips, like the one that comes to mind. I don't know if you got to this place, but it was about finishing a project. It was like finish if you're having trouble finishing a project, finish it for the sake of the next project. You know what I'm saying? So like a lot of times when the artist is like 90% of the way done, you know, they don't want to finish it, they don't want to let go, they don't want they want to be a perfectionist or whatever, they don't want to meet the right deadlines, but like if you're not it's so much and it usually artists are so much more excited about the beginning of a project, too, like the idea of the projects, not like the actual like the finishing touches can be kind of monotonous, you know, and and boring. Um sucks. And and but like that's kind of how artists think, which is like, oh, uh but the beginning of the next project is going to be a lot of fun. So use that beginning of that next project in order to drive your motivation levels through the end of this project, you know, which is something that's something that like I've kind of struggled with with the app because it never really ends. So then that's why I've had these big periods where I don't even work on it at all. But like maybe with certain features or certain things, like there's there's ways of taking that logic and applying it to anything, you know, which is I really like that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:02

I don't finish shit.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:05

Yeah, neither.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:06

That's that's always been my struggle with music. I and that's why I really liked when we did the theme song last year, because I was like, even though I obviously every time I put something out, I'm always gonna look back and be like, oh, I want to tweak this, I wish I tweaked that. Like I'll never, and I think that's any artist, you're always gonna see something wrong with you password. But it was nice to just like finish something and send it off and be like, I did that. Okay, that's that's done. I can wrap a little bow on it. Yeah, because I I can't do that. And it just to show myself that I could just one time, I was like, okay, this is possible. I can do that. I gotta figure out ways to like put myself in scenarios like that, you know, where I either have like a deadline or I so it it it's like learning from each of those of like what drives you to actually get those things done. Um yeah, it was cool to just be like, oh, this is possible. It happens.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:05

Yes, sir. Uh I feel like I feel like it's a good time to wrap up, right? Do you have anything anything else from that book that you remember that you want to bring up or not that I can think of at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 2:26:18

Um yeah, I would say overall, just it really just helped refine my outlook on creativity and not and rem reminding myself that it's not something you can force. Like, you know, when I I sit down and I'm like, oh, I need to make this much music this week, I need to put in this many hours. It's like that's not that's not how I should approach it. Like, yeah, I want to get better, I take it serious, but like this is my craft. This is like I don't want to be a robot, I want to make like good, creative, something you can feel. And if I'm in a state where I'm just trying to just, you know, crank it out, I'm not gonna put myself in that headspace where I'm actually gonna make what I want to make. Totally.

SPEAKER_03 2:27:04

That's it.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:06

That's it. Alright, well, this was sweet, man. Especially that combo with Liam, bro. I feel like there was a lot of pressure on it in my head because uh the three of us have never hung out. Like, I like the like, I mean, obviously, there's a lot of people at your bachelor party and wedding, but it was too many people to get a vibe, but I just had a feeling I was like, the three of us would vibe, bro. And like because of that, I'm for I mean, it was like two years ago now, so like it's been a couple years now of like, hmm, I bet the three of us would really vibe on a podcast, so it's kind of it became like a lot of pressure for it to go well, but I feel like it that was sick, that was a sick combo.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:45

I really enjoyed that. I honestly, when you said it, I was like, I could see like a rough idea of things we could talk about because we do have a lot of things in common, but I was like, I really don't know like what focus, you know, what's gonna be that like kind of bread and butter. Uh but I really like those questions. Like I think they they really sparked a lot of just it was just very thought-provoking, you know, it's like things we do all the time, but it's like, yeah, what what's actually happening there? Like what what's actually going on?

SPEAKER_02 2:28:14

And it seemed like I I kind of I I had this thought before too, but it seemed like you guys, because of the jobs that you have, need need someone to listen to you guys sometimes, man. It just it seemed to help Liam, probably you too, but like just seems like something you guys don't get enough of. So that that wasn't that seemed to be a nice um side effect, you know? Every therapist needs therapists, that's what they say.

SPEAKER_00 2:28:41

That's for sure. Shit ain't easy. No, sir. Oh man. Well, thank you for doing this. That was that was so much fun. It was good to catch up with you guys.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:52

Definitely. Here, I'm gonna stop recording.