Cruelty as Policy: The Immigration Crisis and Manufactured Outrage

When ICE agents appear at elementary schools to terrorize children, we must confront a disturbing truth: America's immigration debate has never truly been about public safety. This eye-opening episode strips away the rhetoric to reveal what's actually driving our nation's immigration policy.

Through powerful personal testimony, we hear from an undocumented immigrant who arrived in America at 17, received an education, and transformed into a respected educational leader who was four times named National Superintendent of the Year. This story illustrates what's possible when we choose compassion over cruelty, opportunity over exclusion. Yet as raids target churches, workplaces, and even elementary schools, it becomes impossible to maintain the fiction that enforcement is about protecting Americans from danger.

The data tells a clear story: American citizens commit the vast majority of crimes in the United States. So why are we witnessing pregnant women in handcuffs and children left alone in immigration courts? Why are federal agents now hiding their faces behind masks during operations? Using what the host calls "the gift of interpretation," we decode the true conversation happening beneath the surface - one driven less by security concerns than by demographic anxieties and ideological agendas.

The episode also examines how political figures deliberately manufacture immigration crises to advance their interests, deploying inflammatory language and tactics that create the disorder they claim to be fighting. From ICE raids in Los Angeles to the biblical commands regarding treatment of strangers, we explore how immigration enforcement has become a moral test that reveals our true national character.

This isn't just another partisan take on immigration - it's a thoughtful examination of how Americans can see beyond tribal talking points to understand what's really happening in our communities. Listen now to gain a deeper understanding of one of America's most contentious and consequential debates.

Transcript

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Fighting for the Undocumented

Speaker 1 0:47

I would be a hypocrite if I did not fight for those and I want to confess to you , for those of you who may not know I would be a hypocrite if I did not fight for those who today are facing conditions that over 40 years I faced as an undocumented migrant to this country . I want to repeat that I would be the biggest hypocrite in the world , regardless of my position today , if today I did not fight for those who find themselves in the same predicament I faced over 40 years ago , when I arrived in this country at the age of 17 as an undocumented immigrant . As an undocumented immigrant , education made me and saved me . I became a teacher , a principal , a superintendent , leading the nation's largest districts , four times selected as National Superintendent of the Year .

Speaker 1 1:42

I do not underestimate the power of the immigrant child , who may very well become an adult who does well and good by America . If I come across with a certain degree of contempt and anger , I am . I am Because Monday , monday , actions were taken in this community that have no place in our city , in our state or across America . I'm still mystified as to how a first , second , third , fourth or sixth grader would pose any type of risk to the national security of our nation . That would require Homeland Security to deploy its agents to two elementary schools .

Speaker 2 2:33

Welcome to the Darrell McLean Show . I'm your host , darrell McLean . This is episode 457 . It has often been said by a lot of people that cruelty was the point , and I think that when we look at the images coming out of Los Angeles , when we look at the cases that have been going on in the country , it can be affirmed by anybody who is critically paying attention to anybody who is just looking at this situation and calling balls and stripes that we now have to deal with the consequences of the fact that cruelty , indeed , was the point . All the signs were there for anybody who wanted to see them when you had them going after something like birthright citizenship , that was your sign . Something like birthright citizenship that was your sign , because somebody who's not even been born obviously is not in the United States committing any crimes . That was the sign . When it was them saying they were going to go into churches , that was the sign , because I would submit to you that the illegal immigrant here who's taking their time out to go into the churches

Cruelty Was the Point

Speaker 2 4:02

and worship in spirit and in truth is probably not the person out there committing the crimes . That was the sign . Probably not the person out there committing the crimes . That was the sign when they go into hospitals and when somebody is receiving emergency care with your own eyes .

Speaker 2 4:19

It was never about crime . Over the past few weeks , you've seen images of little children little children in immigration court alone because their parents have been taken , and you know that it's not about the alleged crime , the law and order narrative that is pushed every election after every election . This is about a larger ideological push from people like Stephen Miller who believe in the great replacement theory that people in the country are being replaced by people who they believe do not deserve to be here . When you see ICE agents showing up to people's now places of employment , so these are people who are not out committing crimes . This is not MS-13 . This is not trendy . A la raga , ragra , whatever you call it . These are people who are standing outside of Home Depot getting work . These are people who are at certain workplaces , whether it be in Florida , whether it be in New York , whether it be in California , and they're going to these people's places of employment to arrest them . You see , this is not about crime . When it comes to the disappearing of people before they have due process , you could prisons . That would not be allowed in the United States . You know , you know cruelty is the point when it comes to looking at what a judge has said , going on the television programs and misrepresenting what the judges said , that , when everybody can read for themselves what the judges said . You know , it is not about law and order , it is about something else . It is about something else . This is the time where we have CCTV cameras Everybody has a journalistic itch and in the tools to pursue freelance journalism by picking up their phones and recording what's going on .

Speaker 2 7:52

And they do , and it's on TikTok and it's on Instagram and it's on Facebook and it's on Twitter and it's on Bluetooth , for the world to see , but with impunity . They are still behaving like nothing more than a bunch of jackbooted thugs . This is when you know it is not about so-called criminal behavior of illegal immigrants . When you look at the numbers , the raw data shows , year after year , the people who commit the most crimes in the great United States of America just so happen to be people who are natural born citizens . People who are American citizens commit the most crimes . American citizens commit the most murders . American citizens commit the most rapes . American citizens commit the most robberies . American citizens commit the worst , the most serial killings . American citizens commit the most drug crime offenses , american citizens commit the most traffic laws goes on and on . So as horrible as it is to see the images coming out of New York and California and Florida , I want people to look at them and have them so stained in your brain that you will not forget the next time you hear somebody saying anything about crime , punishment , law and order that it is actually not about law and order . It is not about immigration . It is about something else . When you see people being ripped out of the hands of their mothers , when you see pregnant women in handcuffs and you look them up and they have no criminal record , you will say it was not about crime and we already know the game that is going to be played when you talk to a certain type of person , because they'll say wait , wait , wait , no , no , no .

Speaker 2 10:40

When we said crime , you thought we meant violent criminals , but when we said crime , what we actually meant was the crime of coming into this country several years ago without proper documentation . That was what we meant by crime and we purposely didn't say that . We weren't talking about the crime of being brought here by your parents when you were eight years old and now you're 16 , 17 . No , no , no . We knew you didn't want those types of people gone .

Speaker 2 11:20

We knew when we said crime , you weren't talking about the person who is tealing the land . We knew you weren't talking about the person doing the backbreaking construction work . We knew you weren't talking about the person doing the backbreaking construction work . We knew you imagined some MS-13 gangbanger . But what we meant was all of them . What we meant was every single one of them , because the country has been having this conversation for years and there are people who don't actually want to solve the problem . They're not brave enough to say that they believe in open borders , etc . And there's people who want to solve the problems by taking everybody , taking the entire bath water when the baby is still in there and throwing the baby out with the bathtub Back .

Speaker 2 12:28

More on the Darrell McLean Show Growing up in the great state of Florida , I was blessed to have what let's just call the gift of interpretation . Now , of course , if you are in the know , when you hear somebody say something like the gift of interpretation , what normally people mean when they say that is the gift to discern what somebody is saying when they speak in the language of angels or when they speak in tongue . What I mean when I say I was blessed with the gift of interpretation , I mean that I was blessed with the stunning gift to listen to what somebody is saying , to hear the type of words that they use whether it is phrases or talking point or , let's just say , a buzzword and to be able to decipher what they actually mean by what they say . It is the gift of interpretation that made me listen intensely when people speak . It was the gift of interpretation that led me to a certain analysis of people's behavior . It was a gift of interpretation that made me stare deep to penetrate not only the actions of people but also analyze the heart of the people doing said actions . There's a lot of people in the country that also have the gift of interpretation . There's a lot of people in the country that also have the gift of interpretation and because they have said gifts , they become very skeptical , very cynical , very unnerved when they hear certain narratives being pushed , and this is why . But then it's important to think beyond what's being said , to understand . That's your position , what's the principle , what's the plan , what's the policy , what is the optics , et cetera , etc .

Speaker 2 15:14

The immigration thing Is something I've been watching Since I was a young lad . I remember the story Of a young man by the name of Elion Gonzalez when I was in Florida and how the battle happened . When Elion Gonzalez hit the shores of America , I remember having to have intense debates about his status , because there was a debate happening at the time in Florida over immigration , but not just immigration . It wasn't the problem , it was the what type of immigrant

The Gift of Interpretation

Speaker 2 15:56

? We had a influx of Haitian migrants who came to Florida legally and they came in such a mass that it caused a disruption because there were cultural differences . So the conversation wasn't about whether it was legal or illegal , it was those people came here and the fact that they are here . They are changing our customs . They came here , they are having these practices , that they have merged some type of hoodoo or voodoo with a certain type of Catholicism and that is foreign to us in Florida . So it was shocking to us .

Speaker 2 16:46

There was conversations because we had an influx . There was conversations because we had an influx or so it was said of people who were there illegally from the Dominican Republic , and we had people who were there illegally from Mexico , and we knew that there was a difference in the way these people were treated , because the people who came to Florida and they came from Cuba . It used to be said that the law was written in such a way that if a person fled the country of Cuba and made it to United States water , made it to United States land , they were given citizenship . So even then I started to think what is the difference between somebody who is Dominican and somebody who is Cuban ? What's the difference between somebody who is from Mexico and the person who was Cuban ? What is the difference between somebody who came here from Haiti legally and the person that comes here from Cuba ?

Speaker 2 18:13

And I realized that behind a lot of the conversations people were pretending to have , the gift of interpretation allowed me to see the meta conversation that was actually going on . That was actually going on . The gift of interpretation allowed me to be able to understand that this was not really a question of immigration . This was about the fact that , because America is an industrial country , what happened in the United States of America is the birth rate started to decline and the people who are coming into the country from Haiti , from Cuba , from Mexico , from the Dominican Republic happen to be people who , for one reason or another , produce more children . And that was the real meta conversation that was going on . There was a certain fear that these people are coming here , they're producing more children and that is going to be a problem in the future . There was a certain conversation going on all the time behind conversations .

Speaker 2 19:44

And every now and then every now and then somebody would say the real truth . Every now and then somebody would say the real truth . I want to say it was a guy by the name of Stephen King one time . That is somebody who actually just said what the other people meant when they talked about immigration . There's a certain person who will say something they are coming here illegally and they are taking the jobs . That person may or may not have an analysis that says it's not the person coming here illegally who is taking the job . That is a problem . It's the person who knows that the person is here illegally , who who is giving them the job . That's the problem . Immigration In all forms , whether it is the stealing of people in the triangle trade and bringing them here , or it is people who are leaving war-torn countries and coming here for opportunity it has always been a pressing issue in the United States of America and I humbly suggest to you , my beloved audience , that it will always be a pressing issue in the United States of America . A pressing issue in the United States of America .

Speaker 2 23:48

I talked about that Bible verse the other day when I quoted it to you from Leviticus , and I say this again when I talk about cruelty being the point , that we remember that Bible verse . That we are commanded in this country that everybody likes to say they have some sort of Christian value , some sort of Christian ethos . That we are commanded by Holy Scripture of how we are to treat people when they come into the land , and take that very seriously . That it's not just about what you say . You will be judged by what you actually do . You will be judged by A God who reads and knows the heart . You can say whatever you like to say . You can have the fake conversations , but there are certain people in the country who have been so blessed with the gift of interpretation that they won't believe what you are saying . They will look behind your , your Words and they will look at your deeds . They'll look behind your posturing and they'll see your real positions .

Speaker 2 25:21

And this is a time , like other times in America , where we will say what side were you on when this stuff came to America ? We will say what side were you on ? Were you on the side of the people who were going into elementary schools and arresting children ? Were you on the side of people who were looking for justifications and saying , well , this happened because the governor of California did X or didn't do X , y and Z . Will you be that person ? Is that who you actually are ? Or will you be the person who has a clear analysis of what is going on and be able to look yourself in the mirror , be able to look your kids in the face ? Because this stuff is almost . It almost writes itself . To be honest , it just somewhat does .

Speaker 2 26:32

This crisis was somewhat manufactured , and when I say it was manufactured , I need to say it this way , and this is where we get into a certain type of analysis , where I have to say that this specific immigration rile is a manufactured crisis , especially in Los Angeles , that the president of the United States , donald Trump , has manufactured on his own . The Trump administration claims to be fighting an existential battle against insurrectionary forces in Los Angeles . In truth , it is a created crisis and a cynical spectacle itself deploying troops and flaming tensions to distract from certain policy failures . A confrontation between immigration rights protesters and law enforcement in Los Angeles on June 7 , 2025 , following recent raids by Immigration and Custom Enforcement , ice and Department of Homeland Security DHS agents , has taken the nation . You don't think it's going to happen to you , quite frankly , until it does , said Louisa , whose father was detained in a raid in an ambience apparel factory in Los Angeles' Garment District . Immigration officers arrived in force on Friday morning and invaded the warehouse , initiating what Lucia called a manhunt for each and every one of the workers on their lists . Luisa , 24 , has been unable to talk to her father , who is 51 , since he was taken from the factory . A crowd immediately gathered outside the factory , drawn by a swarm of armored vehicles . Some protesters blocked vans in an attempt to physically prevent them from leaving the scene with the detainees . Observing the action was david hereta , president of Service Employees International Union , united Service Workers West , the SEIU-USSW . He was tackled to the ground , injuring his head . Hureta was treated at the hospital but remained in federal custody throughout the weekend . He was released early Monday afternoon on bond but is now facing federal felony charges .

Speaker 2 28:58

Louisa's family has been increasingly worried about the separation since Donald Trump's election last November . My father made it a big deal to ensure us that if it did happen , he always said if it does happen , but it won't , we're going to be fine . Louisa told Jacobin magazine she has been given a pseudonym in order to protect her anonymity . Now that the moment has arised , the family's optimism has given way quite to dread . We don't know how to address it with each other . Even she said we want to remain strong for him and for ourselves . We want to find ways to help him . He describes the family's interaction with officials so far as suspicious and difficult to navigate . On saturday morning they caught a glimpse of their father outside of a federal building in downtown los angeles . He was being loaded into a van for transport to separate to a separate facility . Officials had promised her visitation but canceled at the last minute , citing the protest rolling outside .

Speaker 2 30:07

By Friday night , the federal building had already become a focal point of protests against the raids . Police had fired rubber bullets , flashbang grenades and tear gas at protesters and journalists surrounding the building . The melee on the federal property empowered Trump to intervene directly and on Saturday he called in the National Guard to protect the building . California legislators had not asked for the federal government's assistance . Federal government's assistant Instead , evidently eager to create a national spectacle , trump went over their heads . Putting the protest in the national spotlight , his border czar , tom Holman , threatened to arrest the mayor of Los Angeles , karen Bass , and the governor of California , gavin Newsom , if they resisted Trump's federal troop takeover . Capitalizing on the media's attention .

Speaker 2 30:59

Trump issued several sensationalist statements , promising that illegals will be expelled and Los Angeles would be set free . A once great American city , los Angeles , has been invaded and occupied by illegal aliens and criminals , the president wrote . He called the protesters violent insurrectionist mobs . He pled to liberate Los Angeles from the migrant invasion and to put an end to those migrant rioters . Louisa expressed concern about how swiftly Trump shifted the narrative from the detentions to the police clashes and his demonization of protesters .

Speaker 2 31:35

The reason why we do these protests is beyond just wanting to make noise and cause chaos , says Lula . It is meaningful and it has a purpose . They want to steer away from that . They want to change the story and say it is because people are violent . Trump's needless provocations .

Speaker 2 31:53

Los Angeles City Council's member Hugo Sotamartineoto Martinez rejected Trump's claims to be acting on behalf of people in Los Angeles who are being held captive by migrants to the detriment of their city . This is not why the people of Los Angeles and this is not the way that people Los Angeles view my immigrants and this is not the way that people in Los Angeles view my immigrants Soto Martinez said People in Los Angeles understand that immigrants are part of the very fabric of our city . So for Trump to say what he said is completely deranged . Martinez , a former union organizer and a son of an undocumented immigrant , himself views the Trump administration's provocations as opportunistic and cynical . In the last few days we have seen an escalation of aggressive tactics by the president , provoking these conflicts and trying to intimidate people . He said the public responding to that is

Not About Crime, But Something Else

Speaker 2 32:50

what they are , not the other way around . So the public is responding to that , not the other way around . The other way around . So the public is responding to that , not the other way around .

Speaker 2 33:02

Protests in Los Angeles grew in response to the Trump's announcement that he was developing plans to deploy the National Guard . On Sundays , crowds were estimated in the thousands , with demonstrations representing labor unions , immigrant rights groups , students and many unaffiliated local residents . They signs , they waved flags , they chanted through bullhorns and blocked intersections . As the national guardmen arrived in los angeles , hundreds of protesters blocked a freeway , bringing traffic to a halt . They clashed with police in multiple locations .

Speaker 2 33:30

The trump administration provided uh running color commentary dramatizing the crisis of its own making . Insurrectionists carrying foreign flags are attacking immigrant enforcement officers , wrote Vice President JD Vance on social media . White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller characterized events in Los Angeles as a fight to save civilization , secretary of Defense Pete Hexen threatened to send the Marines in to quell violent mobs . The administration placed a man who had thrown rocks at the immigration vehicles on the FBI's most wanted list , alongside violent murderers on large scale , such as international drug traffickers . On Sunday evening , trump took to his social media platform Truth Social to call protesters thugs and demand that they arrest any protester wearing a face mask . He also called a deploy more than federal forces , though it was unclear if he meant the National Guard or any other body Looking really bad in LA , he wrote , bearing in the troops .

Speaker 2 34:41

A Los Angeles public school teacher , glero , accused the Trump administration of inciting people to build a narrative that the people here deserve to be deported . By using inflammatory rhetoric and taking increasingly provocative action , like rolling tanks through the city street , galareldo said the administration is deliberately attempting to create a scenario that will go viral on social media . They are doing it on purpose , because they want to be circulating around the world . Galareldo speculated that a small minority of protesters may be intent on giving Trump what he wants , where their undercover agitators are just frustrated individuals . With any mass mobilization like this , there are people who are trying to make it more violent , and it's not seasoned organizers that are silly . Many community activists , she said , were at home , like me , trying to organize responses for our schools , or on the streets , trying to be peaceful and not put people in danger .

Speaker 2 35:42

Louisa , the detainee's daughter , told Jacobin that the Trump administration is definitely inciting people to react in certain ways , noting that protesters come with powerful emotions and protests elicit powerful emotions , and accusing the administration of poking the bear . She caused her processors not to play into the hands . It is important to have protests , but we need to do so in a way that does not prove the current administration correct . I um , I um , uh . There's another part of this and it's pointing fingers as the rich get richer . That's the last part of this particular article . Right , but because I want people to do what I do and actually visit media sources and read people's work , I'm not going to read it for you . I'm just going to say that came from Jacobin . That last part came from Jacobin magazine . The person who wrote the article is someone by the name of Megan Day .

Speaker 2 36:53

The article in question is called Donald Trump Manufactured Crisis in Los Angeles . And read it for yourself . Go look at the news clippings and see if you see . See what you see . It was the late Dr Martin Luther King who said the riots are the voice of the unheard and of course that's something that people regularly quote when things like this happen . But I do also understand things like manufactured crisis . I do understand things like manufacturing consent . I do understand that Americans are hyper-propagandized and are tribal by nature .

Speaker 2 37:50

So Republicans will say one thing because they're Republicans , and they're going to repeat the talking points that Republicans tell them to repeat . They're Republicans and they're going to repeat the talking points that Republicans tell them to repeat . They'll say liberals do the same thing and to a certain part they do . But being blessed with this gift of interpretation To be a despised enlightened centrist , to be a despised person who can sit in the middle and sniff out a narrative and say actually there's more to that story than you are suggesting , it makes you a person who is suspect . But I'll just say this when the administration started going on college campuses which they did very recently and arresting college students for the audacity of writing op eds which did happen , and there was no criminal record the people who were blessed with such gifts of interpretation , who were also blessed with a memory of historical insight , knew these things were connected .

Speaker 2 39:07

It's not about how you say something . It is not even about the way you say something . It is not even about the way you say something . It is a greater fight going on than how dare you say that , against our policy , a college student is arrested , immigration status being threatened because they did it the right way they wrote an op-ed .

Speaker 2 39:52

The weapons are so powerful these words are that your degree could be withheld , that your college institution can lose their ability to be able to teach students from a foreign country because they're not teaching them the narrative that we would like to be pushed and I just always caution people when I say this the freedom of speech is supposed to be not for the speech that you agree with . The freedom of speech is supposed to be for views of everybody , and the freedom of speech that should be protected the most I humbly submit to you is the freedom of the person that you disagree with , because they're going to hold some glimmer of truth that just may make you understand a perspective a tad bit better . And um , let me deal with one thing while I'm on this , before I move on to my next uh topic , which is going to be a tad bit interesting because of the way it kind of gave the game away . Listen to this claim and I'm going to put some analysis behind this .

Speaker 3 41:23

Okay , I'm going to answer the mask question . So no , no , not the mask , the line of the mask . So a lot of agencies were invited to come out two weeks ago in Los Angeles where we ran an operation where ICE officers were doxxed . So let's just say that again . People are out there taking photos of the names , their faces , and posting them online with death threats to their family and themselves . So I'm sorry if people are offended by them wearing masks , but I'm not going to let my officers and agents go out there and put their lives on the line , their family on the line , because people don't like what immigration enforcement is . They are wearing those masks because we ran an operation with the Secret Service . We arrested someone that was going online taking their photos posting their families , their kids' Instagram , their kids' Facebooks , and targeting them . So let me ask is that the issue here , that we're just upset about the masks , or is anyone upset with the fact that ICE officers' families were labeled terrorists ?

Speaker 2 42:31

So here's the thing that's a crock , that's a load of bull , because this is a conversation . This is a conversation that has been had in the local communities , in local law enforcement . I remember back listening to libertarian judge uh napolitano , who used to be a regular on Fox News , used to have to tell people you have a constitutional right to guess what film law enforcement activities and , of course , if somebody is doing something for the general public , who's supposed to hold them accountable the general public ? I worked in law enforcement from the age of 20 all the way to the age of 30 , for the federal government , under the Department of Homeland Security , under the Department of Defense for first the Department of the Navy , then the Department of Homeland Security under the auspice of a federal protective servant . Fps was my alphabet , police FPS . Guess what we did not regularly do ? We did not hide our badges when we were conducting official government business and we did not hide our faces behind masks when we were conducting official government business . And we did not hide our faces behind masks when we were conducting official government business , and if somebody asked me who I was , I would gladly tell them who I was and the department that I worked for , and we displayed our badges . We used to know that it was common sense back then that we represented not just ourselves , we represented the institution called the United States of America , and the only way that this thing works is people allow themselves to be governed and allow and us as the representatives , because we are the force behind government power . There's bureaucracy , and then there are the bureaucrats , and then there's the police force that sustain the bureaucracy , and that's where I sat from the age of 20 all the way to the age of 30 years old 10 years doing that type of work . So I'm just going to say this I doubt any of this is the real action of why the people are wearing masks , of why the people are wearing masks , and it would actually be easy to find the proof online if this was happening . Even if it was , though , let me look at the logic in this particular situation .

Speaker 2 45:55

Ice is a federal law enforcement agency . You only know who they are , who they say they are , because you can see them . They'll have a badge , they have a police car with identifying marks . You can see a badge , number , etc . And you know they are , who they say they are .

Speaker 2 46:14

And then I want you to ask yourself this other question Do you actually want to live in a government where mass people just come and snatch you up and say trust me , I work for the government , I'm doing right . We believe you're doing wrong . Trust me , would you be okay if a president you didn't vote for ? Would you be okay if the FBI started wearing masks to conduct businesses all the time ? Would you be okay if the ATF started doing it ? Would you be okay if the CIA started doing it ? Would you be okay if the federal marshals started to do so ? Would you be okay if the CIA started doing it ? Would you be okay if the federal marshals started to do so ? Would you be okay if your local police started to do so ?

Speaker 2 47:04

The police , whether it be local or federal police , whether it be ICE or ATF or anybody , or even Federal Protective Services or the Secret service , etc . They work on behalf of the American people and they should be therefore held accountable by the American people and they should not be afraid to be held . So take off your mask . If you're doing your job , do it , and the general public , who you are supposed to be there to serve , will decide if you are doing the job correctly , but if you're doing something else and you don't want to be held accountable , then that's why somebody puts on a mask to hide their behavior . The last topic for today is going to be something of importance , but something a little bit lighter . It was predicted by us all . We knew this wouldn't last and it has now happened . Donald Trump and Elon Musk have broken up , and this has actually happened to us all during Gay Pride Month . How sad .

Speaker 4 48:35

In my life . I'm talking about my mom , my dad , my friends from home , my professional colleagues , podcast listeners , casual acquaintances , strangers , everybody , everybody in my life appears to have stopped what they're doing and are just refreshing Twitter for what Elon Musk is going to say next and , in some cases , what the president and his supporters are going to say next . This is by far , by far , the biggest political breakup story of our lifetime . I can't think of even a close second here . Elon Musk and Trump not only are cooling which was what seemed to be true 24 hours ago but seemed to be in a full-on hot war on the internet . And these are two extremely erratic , temperamental personalities with a ton of power . And so , although this is intriguing , it is certainly entertaining for reasons I'll get to . It has huge consequences for the question of who holds power , both within the United States and in the world , and for , in certain cases , public policy issues and even national security . So let's do a quick rundown of what's

Manufactured Immigration Crisis

Speaker 4 49:50

happened here .

Speaker 4 49:51

Musk today , after Trump posted on Truth Social that he fired , elon Musk said . This is what Musk said without me , trump would have lost the election , dems would control the House and the Republicans would be 51-49 in the Senate Such ingratitude . Trump responded , quote the easiest way to save money in our budget , billions and billions of dollars , is to terminate Elon's governmental subsidies and contracts . I was always surprised that Biden didn't do it . Musk wrote back in light of the president's statement about cancellation of my government contract , spacex will begin decommissioning its Dragon spacecraft immediately .

Speaker 2 50:27

Let me just go to talk about these few things .

Speaker 2 50:32

That is disgusting . That is Elon basically saying there are people who are stranded in space . I'm the only game in town . If you keep speaking to me this way , I people who are stranded in space . I'm the only game in town . If you keep speaking to me this way , I'll keep them stranded in space . That's basically what that means . There is also talk about the structure of the country .

Speaker 2 50:57

People who write public policy were so stupid that they thought it was going to be OK to let one person monopolize NASA , and that was what this actual fight really started about . It wasn't about the big beautiful bill . Look , I have a lot of thoughts about that and I'll just say this lot of thoughts about that . Uh , and I'll just say this whether it's biden's bill back better or trump's big beautiful bill , etc . Anything that comes out of washington is going to be a big bag of bullshit and it is going to be bloated , and that is just the way that sausage is made , because what actually happens here wink wink is people who have this thing that a lot of people don't have , because they are bought and paid for by people who operate under the guise of organized bribery . And it's perfectly legal , because the Supreme Court says in Citizens United that money is speech . And guess who has a lot of money , people who politicians normally talk to .

Speaker 2 52:27

And what happened is Elon thought he was going to go to Washington DC because he is the richest person in the world and he's going to be able to enact his will . And guess what he did ? Go to Washington DC , he did gut a lot of programs that a lot of Americans really care about . But what happened is he ran into this thing that happens in DC . There were other millionaires and billionaires sitting there who said , ah , we actually also have millions of dollars . We may not have $352 million , we may not have , you know , a couple of billion , but I do have $800 million . You know nothing to sneeze at . I know how much it costs to buy me a congressman , I know how much it costs to buy me a senator , and I know what it costs to sway local elections . I paid for it and I'm going to get it . So Elon , realizing he wasn't the only game in town , he threw a hissy fit Because , yeah , that's the way the sausage is made .

Speaker 2 53:58

And , and you see it , it's in plain sight . It's in plain sight , it's in plain sight . Elon bought a presidency . But you know it . You know it without knowing it .

Speaker 2 54:12

You have to look behind and see when people like the famous Koch brothers , when they're doing something , what they're actually putting money into politics for . You have to know . When , on the left , you have George Soros doing something , what he's putting money in politics for . You have to know , on the right , when Sheldon Adelson was doing something these are billionaires , these people I just named that they're doing something , they're buying something . When Jeff Bezos was doing something with his money when it came to politics , what he was doing .

Speaker 2 54:51

When Bill Gates was doing something , when Warren Buffett was doing something , when I can kind of keep going Bill Ackman , jp Morgan , jamie Dimon , when all these people , people who have more money than God are doing something , involved in your politics , it's because they planned , fully planned , and it has been fully proven that they want to get a return on investment , and the return on investment is policies that favor our business interest . And we don't give a damn if Elon has come to town . We're still rich , we still paid for our politician . You better put what I want in that damn bill and the politicians will bend over and bow to the king that they worship the most . The almighty , almighty dollar In God we trust is written on our money , and that god they're talking about is not any god in heaven the dragon is used to supply the international space station must also came back with .

Speaker 4 56:15

I think this is the most retweeted tweet today . Maybe it will eventually be the most retweeted tweet today . Maybe it will eventually be the most retweeted tweet in history . Musk said time to drop the really big bomb . Donald Trump is in the Epstein files . That is the real reason they have not been made public . Have a nice day , djt . Marcus Post . For the future , the truth will come out .

Speaker 4 56:35

Steve Bannon then spoke to the New York Times about Musk . Those two have been having a beef . Bannon said they should initiate a formal investigation of his immigration status , because I am of the strong belief that he is an illegal alien and should be deported from the country immediately . Musk and Trump were just going back and forth , back and forth , and they had a big back and forth substantively over the legislation going through Congress , which is really what started all this , and a lot of it had to do with , you know , the deficit and the electric vehicle mandates , and Trump saying that it was really about Musk wanting to get preferential treatment for electric vehicles , et cetera , and Musk saying he didn't really care about those subsidies , but then , alternatively , saying that it's unfair that fossil fuel industries get subsidies , but that that electric vehicles don't .

Speaker 2 57:34

So there was a ding , ding , ding , ding , ding , ding , ding . These other rich people , oil executives , got this thing in the bill . Why can't I , ev executive , get what I want in the bill ? What it's about , you know , without knowing it wasn't about really the debt or the deficit . It wasn't because Elon was concerned that a lot of people were going to be kicked off Medicaid and Medicare and Social Security . It wasn't because the Pentagon regularly fails audits . It was about him and his pocketbook , because , after all , that's what this always comes back to . It , does it not ? Pocketbook issues . It's the economy , stupid . The famous democratic strategist james carver once said keep that in your head , at the forefront of your thought process , when you listen to what some of these super rich people say and do , because guess what ? It's the economy for them too . They're just dealing with a lot more capital than me or you .

Speaker 4 58:55

That substantive thing going on here behind the scenes thing going on here behind the scenes . Now I'll take a step back here just to go through some of the reactions from around the political spectrum here . Stephen Miller canceled his Fox appearance due to what was dubbed an emergency meeting in the Oval Office . Kamala Foster tweeted but how will the Democrats screw this up ? And Jesse Waters tweeted maybe they could patch this up . I mean , vance called Trump Hitler . Bill Ackman is trying to keep his relationships warm on both sides of this equation , he said . I support real Donald Trump and Elon Musk and they should make peace for the benefit of our great country . We're much stronger than apart . Mark Caputo tweeted at 121 .

Speaker 4 59:48

After all , hell broke loose between Trump and Musk . Desantis' Ron Pack sent out an email . Elon Musk took the hits and led the charge . An update is that DeSantis' staffer says that the language was approved last week and that the timing was coincidental . Derek Thompson tweeted that the tech right got suckered by the most obvious con man in political history , defended him while he raised tariffs , slashed science and scared away foreign talent . Now the administration is going to wreck SpaceX for spite , while Bannon calls for Musk's deportation . Well done On the business side of things , kyle Griffin tweeted about how Tesla stock ended the day down 14% .

Speaker 4 1:00:27

I saw it as high as 16 or 17% . Recently the company lost $152 billion in value . Megan Messerly tweeted . Steve Bannon is advocating on his show tonight for the US government to use the Defense Production Act to seize control of SpaceX , amid President Trump's broader threats about canceling Elon Musk's government contracts . Caitlin Collins tweeted that the Tesla Trump purchased from Musk is still parked on the West Exec parking lot .

Speaker 4 1:00:56

On the more humorous side of things , ginny Hogan tweeted today is a huge win for every woman concerned . She acted like a psycho during her last breakup . Josh Orbee tweeted this messy Trump-Musk breakup is truly the gayest thing about Pride Month Esoteric CD tweeted Truth Social has crashed from traffic surge and in doing so accidentally created a hauntingly poignant image . So in the crashing of truth social you have an image of Trump . If you go to his page and then it says no truths underneath that , that's what he was alluding to . Olivia Giuliani tweeted who gets custody of Joe Rogan ? Another call-in tweeted . This is Drake versus Kendrick for Republicans . Another call-in tweeted this is Drake versus Kendrick for Republicans . My friend Jason Kander tweeted Elon just told us he spent hundreds of millions of dollars in support of someone he believed at the time to be a pedophile . Ashley St Clair , who had a child with Elon Musk , tweeted hey , real Donald Trump , let me know if you need any breakup advice . Yashar Ali tweeted that Elon Musk has now unfollowed Charlie Kirk and Stephen Miller , and so there's a lot going on here .

Speaker 4 1:02:12

One other piece here that's relevant is that Elon Musk tweeted yes to a tweet saying that Trump should be impeached and JD Vance should replace him . So Musk is now , you know , the biggest backer of Donald Trump in the last election and a very senior advisor to Trump in the White House with a lot of power . He's now calling officially for the impeachment of the president of the United States . So , all the humor aside , this is a battle royal , a heavyweight championship between two very powerful political actors here . So you know it is , you know , entertaining . It is funny , but you know , spacex is really important for this country right now . Starlink is really important for this country right now , but also for Trump and the Republican Party .

Speaker 4 1:03:02

The idea that you have somebody here who's explicitly beefing with the president , who was his biggest financial backer and perhaps one of the biggest , if not the biggest backer of congressional Republicans , who now seems to be explicitly an enemy of the president , who has called for his deportation , but also has said previously and I didn't go through these tweets today that he was going to back primary challengers , maybe even general election challengers , to people who vote for the president's legislation . This is a huge , huge fight and a really important political chasm . I would say it certainly causes a lot of problems for the president . It certainly causes a lot of problems for Congress and Republicans in Congress , who are heading into a midterm election in which most observers and this is historical whenever there's a party in power they tend to do really poorly in the first midterm election . There are exceptions , but it's a general trend . This was going to be an uphill battle for Republicans to hold the House , and I would say that their odds just got much worse , but this is a story that's going to be developing .

Speaker 4 1:04:15

It's a story that I think in some ways , as entertaining as it is , could be really scary , given the power that these two guys have and how neither of them is the kind of person who seems to back down from a fight . You know , I know people are calling Trump Taco Trump . Trump always chickens out , but he has a pretty undefeated record against enemies within his own party . Like Trump has dominated anybody who's come after him within his own party . Like Trump has dominated anybody who's come after him within his own party . You look at somebody like Marco Rubio , who at one point was a pretty formidable primary challenger against Trump , who is now completely subservient to him within his administration . There is almost nobody out there within the right has challenged Trump and has lived to tell the tale .

Speaker 2 1:05:06

That's , that's a big deal . And that's a big deal ? Um , only because I'll say this , and this is going to sound a bit cruel , but I have to say it , but I have to say it . There's a lot of people that I have known for years I've lived in the South my entire life . I have been amongst some of my friends , acquaintances , co-workers , etc . Etc . Who are either conservative , who are libertarians , who are people who will say I am a fiscal conservative but a social liberal , and I have watched over the years them change their positions when it came to the rise of one Donald John Trump . And these are not people in the media space , just people I've known who've always kind of talked about politics and passing , some of them who have the same ailment that I have we have political brain rot and that's all we talk about is politics . And I've watched how the people they used to champion whether it was George Will or or Ann Coulter , or Bill O'Reilly , ron Paul , mike Huckabee I can kind of keep going in this way I've watched as those people started to be somewhat pushed out .

Speaker 2 1:07:02

Your George Bushes W , your George H Bush , your Bill Crystals Of the world . You know Somewhat , even though , if you go look at what they were saying . Honestly , they were saying the same thing they have been saying since the 50s , some of them . So that would be your Herbert Walker , your Rumsfelds , etc . They were saying the same thing that they had been saying since the 60s , 70s , the 80s , the 90s . That would be your Glenn Lowry's , your Thomas Sowell's , your Bill Crystal's , your John McCain's , your John Huntsman's , your Mitt Romney's .

Speaker 2 1:07:56

And I'll just say this they didn't change , the party changed . And you can be like me On my bookshelf I have the father of conservative thought in the 50s and the 60s won William F Buckley . You can go pick those books up and read God and the man at Yale and things like that and see would William F Buckley survive in today's Republican Party ? That's up for you to answer . You can go pick up this great book written by one of the most intelligent conservatives in my opinion , a guy by the name of George Will , the conservative conscience , and see if George Will belongs in today's Republican Party . And you can go pick up the writings of the neoconservative like John Bolton , the military , industrial type of guys , and see where they fit now in the Republican Party has become , whatever the person leading the Republican Party at the time says the Republican Party is .

Speaker 2 1:09:31

If the Republican Party came out and said I support abortion tomorrow , I know people who are adamantly against abortion who would just find another reason to vote for Republicans . And that's the way this game plays . And as somebody who tries to take people seriously when it comes to their pronouncements , when it comes to their pride , when it comes to their perspective , when it comes to their pronouncements , when it comes to their pride , when it comes to their perspective , when it comes to their passion , I just notice these types of things and I'll tell you why this makes this more difficult when we end .

Speaker 4 1:10:18

And people tend to lose in their battles against Trump and then get folded into his administration . But Musk is the most powerful adversary within the Republican Party and within the right that Trump has ever had . So what comes from this who knows and whether Musk finds himself welcome in this country anymore , I think , is an open question . People were joking that Musk would get deported and obviously Bannon is calling for that , as we've talked about on this podcast before

Trump and Musk's Political Breakup

Speaker 4 1:10:51

. The president , and under Marco Rubio at the State Department , has unprecedented powers to mess with people who are in this country Now . Do I think Musk is going to get deported ? I would be surprised by that . But do I think Pam Bondi and others within the administration , kash Patel , you could see investigations , antitrust actions , even criminal investigations of Musk ? I would not be surprised . And who the hell knows Like you would have expected that , because of all the Doge stuff going on , that Musk would have been high on the list of people to get a pardon from Trump at the end of this administration , if not in the middle of the administration .

Speaker 4 1:11:34

Now it seems like the opposite . Not only does it seem like he's not going to get a pardon , but that he could be the subject of a lot of the harassment that people on the left and other Trump critics have seen , and I think that Musk has now risen to the top of the list , above people like Tish James and Alvin Bragg and Michael Cohen , as the type of people you know . Musk is now , I would say , high on the enemies list of Trump and could find himself on the receiving end of real , real harassment here . And then the question is is Musk going to return fire or even shoot first here by backing all kinds of political action against Trump ? And obviously these two could decide that it's in their interest to cool this , and I thought that's where we were heading about 24 hours ago is that ? Yeah , maybe there would be a spat here and there , but this is a dangerous game for both of these guys .

Speaker 4 1:12:28

But I think , like the insertion of stuff , like the Epstein accusation that Musk lobbed at Trump , it's hard to go back from that . You know , it's like a breakup in which people lob personal attacks at each other . Once you go down that road , it's hard to get back together . You know it's also hard to get back together once you publicly go at it with each other , and so in this case , I wouldn't . You know , nothing would shock me , but it would be really hard to cool this down and to get these two back collaborating in any way resembling what we've seen over the past few months . So this is a huge story . We will be monitoring it , obviously , and obviously , if you want to send in a voicemail with your opinions on this , we could probably do a whole episode just on people's theories about where this is going to go and what's driving all this . So thank you very much for listening .

Speaker 2 1:13:26

So that's , uh , robbie Gupta from , uh , the lost debate , uh , podcast for political eclectics . I'll just say and if you , if you , if you kind of want to get a flavor of what I listen to , sometimes that would somewhat be the style I listen to a bunch of different stuff for a bunch of different reasons , but yeah , that's one of them . Anyway , a friend of mine , who's bigger than me in the media space , by the name of Jamie Kilstein , somewhat in that man without a tribe thing , made him at a private conversation that I'm going to somewhat make public here , not a big deal , but he just basically said when peaceful activists are trying to bring food to starving people and they are detained , you need to question about , you need to ask a question about their captors . So he's somebody who is Jewish . He is on the left side of the Jewish argument when it comes to Israel and Palestine which , believe it or not , a lot of American Jews actually are . And because he made this post , he lost about a thousand followers and uh , I I kind of joked with him about you know , hey , I can't keep supporting or supporting you if you don't want children to be hungry , you know ? Um , don't . We need food in america . I mean , for the love of god , I went to duck and donuts this morning and I had to wait in line for two minutes and then he just you know kind of said that's kind of what's been happening in the comments and you know , said he thanked me for always , you know , being decent towards him .

Speaker 2 1:15:31

And I had to say you know a lot of people . They behave like a bunch of clowns on these types of topics . Yeah , and I know this because I've spent time in the military . The military forces you to be around people you would normally not traffic with . That's just the nature of it . I don't think people think about these topics very deeply . And he actually said he has some type of regret and he feels dumb for going on this middle ground podcast tour that he had done . And I just suggested to him that it's actually what happens when you truly have friends on both sides of these very tense political issues , these very tense public policy issues .

Speaker 2 1:16:18

You know people personally who voted for Barack Obama . You know people who voted for Donald Trump . You know people who believed in Ron Paul . You know people who believed in Cornel West . You know people who believed in Bernie Sanders . You may even know people who believed in John McCain and Mitt Romney or in Hillary Clinton , and you know them personally and you don't like to see them being demonized because you have a relationship with them , that specific person and you know that that specific person you know is a decent person . The problem pops up in America is because it gives us these binary choices . Life gives us binary choices on some of the most difficult topics in the moral universe . And while you're giving these binary choices that most people don't even think about , these binary choices that most people don't even think about , what happens is people just repeat the slogans that their tribes have given them to speak and in that particular world , being thoughtful , being nuanced , being compassionate , being principled , is a very dangerous thing to be . Thank you for tuning in and I'll see you on the next episode .