For People with Bishop Rob Wright
For People with Bishop Rob Wright
Spiritual Leadership with Dr. Chip Roper
How do we bring spiritual practices into our everyday working lives? This adaptive challenge requires a new path—one where risk becomes stewardship, attention becomes a sacred resource, and everyday tasks turn into a living conversation with God.
In this episode, Bishop Wright has a conversation with Dr. Chip Roper, founder and president of the VOCA Center. Chip’s journey from profit-chasing ambition to seminary and back into the marketplace as an executive coach gives him rare range: he understands performance pressure, pastoral care, and the hard realities of modern organizations. Bishop Wright and Dr. Roper dig into the quiet epidemic of workplace loneliness and the surprising data showing how few professionals tap spiritual resources when the heat is on. From Jesus’ words about doing only what the Father is doing to the easy yoke that lightens our overwork, Chip maps out a way to lead with courage and calm. Listen in for the full conversation.
Dr. Chip Roper is the Founder and President of the VOCA Center, a faith-based organization driven to equip Christians to approach their daily work with God’s wisdom and power. With an Executive Coaching Certification from Columbia University and a Doctorate of Ministry from Missio Seminary, Chip tackles client challenges from 30+ years of P/L leadership responsibility as a small businessman, a pastor, a career coach, and a business consultant. Chip's clients are found at Blackstone, Sunrise Brokers, JP Morgan, Randall-Reilly, Goldman Sachs, Nielson, Knopman Marks, and CNBC.
The parable of the talents and you know taking what we've been given and putting it at risk. The ones that put it at risk are the ones that actually saw the the fruit and the ones that didn't. How do we take risks in our in our world of uncertainty and polarization and all these other things? I think there's a there's an adventure that God has for us as we approach our work that that uh many of us have maybe yet to taste.
Bishop Wright:Hi everyone, this is Bishop Rob Wright, and uh we have the distinct privilege today to be with Dr. Chip Roper, founder and president of the VOCA Center, a faith-based organization driven to equip Christians to approach their daily work with God's wisdom and power. Dr. Roper, welcome.
Dr. Chip Roper:Thank you, Bishop. It's great to be here.
Bishop Wright:Glad you could be with us. Just a little bit about uh Dr. Chip Roper. He received his certification in executive coaching from Columbia University and holds a doctorate of ministry and hold let me do that again. He received his certificate in executive coaching from Columbia University and holds a doctorate of ministry from Missio Seminary. Chip tackles client challenges with 30 plus years of experience as a small business person, a pastor, a career coach, and a business consultant. Uh among his clients, his clients can be found rather in places like Blackstone and JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, and CNBC. Well, Chip, what where do we start? My goodness. How did you get to this intersection of Christian faith and sort of leadership at the highest levels?
Dr. Chip Roper:Yeah, that's an it's a it's an interesting story. Um and I think uh just just just real high level. Uh when I was a young man, uh, which was a while ago, yeah, um you could see it, the gray in my beard. Um when I was a young man, I was I started out in business, and it was uh very much what I viewed as a path to becoming rich. I just it was all about me. It was very ego, ego driven. And um, so I chased that for a few years and uh found that it was empty. And um that that resulted in a kind of a faith crisis in my life, crisis of meaning. And the net result of that was I instead of going to business school and getting an MBA, I went to seminary. And um, so that that was a hard pivot, uh 180-degree change. And so I went to seminary and I became a pastor and um restarted a small church outside of Philadelphia and was there for quite a long time. And um, but I never really lost my love of business. And um I had a young church, I I didn't have a lot of funerals to do, bishops, so I I actually didn't have a lot to do during the day. Uh don't tell anybody that, right? Because I think we don't do anything during the day. We only work one day a week when we're in in vocational ministry. But I um so I ended up I started visiting uh my congregants at work and just just to just to see what they do to validate their callings and celebrate uh their accomplishments in the workplace. And so I I realized I'd never really lost my love of business. I just didn't really know how to frame it. Yeah. And um, so after after serving as a pastor for for a while, I transitioned into what I'm doing now. And I feel like it kind of brings the two together. It brings business and and kind of ministry together. And um, so it's a bit of a convergence in my life and in my story.
Bishop Wright:Yeah. Oh, there's a lot there. I I love this this idea of people's work life and and business being their vocation. And I think the church, at least I can tell say in my own denomination, we could do a better job in naming that for people. Um uh unfortunately, sometimes uh we don't use that kind of language and we sort of act like people are just sort of wilding away the hours of the day and not really doing anything, and only what they do in the church is meaningful when you know there are numbers of gifts and callings and vocations in us all. And, you know, I I like to talk about, you know, what does it mean with my business people to run an ethical and moral business, you know, predicated on the foundational principles of our faith. So I I just love that you went and you sort of took the game to them and and listened.
Dr. Chip Roper:Yeah, it's um it's been really interesting. Uh listening's a really big part of what we do. Uh some some of it systematically through annual research, um, some of it just serendipitously in conversations. And um and one of the things I just keep working on is being more and more curious and and asking people how, you know, what's happening in their world, yeah, how are they approaching what they're doing? How do they enter their and specifically to what we're talking about, how do they enter their work life? You know, how do they whether they leave the house or they just walk in the other room and get on Zoom, how do they enter that space for their work? And um it's it's really interesting, and it's also oftentimes uh a pretty pretty desolate place in terms of spirituality and meaning. It's it's just a grind. And you know, it doesn't seem to really matter what kind of work people are doing, that they they still have that experience often.
Bishop Wright:So take us behind the take us behind the curtain. Uh what are what are you know what are some of the struggles? Desolate is a strong word. Uh, I think I probably agree. So what are the struggles that you bump into frequently when you're when you're with people at these intersections?
Dr. Chip Roper:You know, I think um you could summarize you could summarize it in one word, and the word is alone. And people feel alone in their workspace, and it it's that that reality is experienced in many, many different ways. So it's experienced by the senior executive who doesn't have a confidant that they can really trust in the workplace because you know everybody wants something from them and they have to make hard decisions about people and that kind of thing. It's also experienced by the person at the bottom of the of the pecking order who doesn't feel seen, uh, doesn't feel like their contribution is valued, um, doesn't feel you know, they feel dehumanized uh in in some way or another, and those experiences are real. So, and it's again, it's alone. Another thing we found is that um in our research is we found that uh the vast majority of Americans enter their work space spiritually alone. And uh as they face challenges at work, uh only four percent use any kind of spiritual resource to to navigate through their the difficulties they face at work. And it's that's that's fascinating and very sobering to us that you know that they may they may be a person of prayer on Sunday or in a group or something that does that, but they don't pray about their work challenges.
Bishop Wright:Well, that was my next question. So so these two two parts of themselves uh are really sort of you know, they're bifurcated, right? Very much so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating. And and so, wow, I could go a lot of different directions. Uh, and so, and so uh are the majority of your clients uh uh Christian? Do you find do you work with people of lots of different kinds of faiths? Uh tell me about that.
Dr. Chip Roper:Yeah, we we work with a broad, broad variety of people. And um we we actually have two different brands. So we have an explicit voca is an explicitly faith-based brand for individuals and and leaders that want to have that faith element integrated into their coaching or training. And then we have another brand where we we're just out in the marketplace and we're helping leaders be the best they can be, helping teams be the best they can be. And so let me ask you, how's business?
Bishop Wright:Uh, you know, it seems like there's a lot of need out there. What are you learning?
Dr. Chip Roper:Yeah, so I'd say business is kind of okay. It's kind of meh, as uh people at least in New York say. Um, it's it's not terrible, but it's not great. And I think at the retail level, individuals um are um they're they're not always willing to pay for what they want. You know, so they they want a lot, uh, but they're not willing necessarily to pay. Sure. Um and it is an investment, you know, to hire a career coach is an investment. It it tends to pay off because you find a job sooner and you get paid more, but it's still an investment, an upfront investment. And then on the business side or the more organizational side, um, there's just been a lot of wait and see in the air for quite a long time. I uh many of us would trace it back to the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, that that ever since that point, things have just sort of there's just been a tentativeness in kind of the business environment. Um and it's been followed by multiple reasons, you know, inflation, rates going up, the presidential election, tariffs, and and now it's kind of I think a lot of it has to do with AI. And uh, although the AI bubble seems to have broken over the last week or two, and people are saying AI isn't as what we thought it would be. So who knows? You know, what's who knows what the next thing will be? But there's there's just this sort of hesitancy to make investments in people uh when we're not sure because that's a discretionary choice, and um just waiting to kind of see what direction things kind of really take. So I feel like we we're running into a lot of wait and see.
Bishop Wright:You know, you you uh you do uh you gather data annually and you've been in the in the game 30 years or so. And so, you know, I I wonder, thinking now uh through the Christian lens, uh the Jesus of Nazareth lens, uh I wonder what what teaching uh keeps bubbling up as you do your work specifically from Jesus? Uh, you know, that that what story, what parable uh, you know, do you hear uh as an answer to some people's queries with you uh again and again?
Dr. Chip Roper:Yeah, I think there's a couple. Um one is one is that I think it's in John, John's Gospel, where Jesus says, I only do what I see my father doing. And there's a sense that he's in this live interaction with his father, seeking direction and guidance, like moment by moment, play by play. And I think that kind of I think that kind of intimacy seems to be missing for many women and men of faith as they enter their workspace. And I I think they're missing out. You know, I think they're missing out on comfort and wisdom and and grounding um to deal with difficulty. I I think that's that's something that I I come back. I think that I think about that one a lot. Um I think about um where Jesus said, My my yoke is easy, my burden is light, and many of us don't work that way. And it just seems like maybe there's some things we've taken on, uh, at least emotionally, that's some weight we attach to our work that we really don't need to. They're not from him. And there's a freedom we could experience there, that there's an upside there. And uh the last one I was thinking of when you asked that question was the the power ball of the talents, and you know, taking what we've been given and putting it at risk. You know, taking some kind of risk. Because that's part of what happens in that story, you know, that's the the ones that put it at risk are the ones that actually saw the the fruit, and the ones that didn't uh were not commended. And that's it, right? That's being generous. Uh that's being generous, yeah. So so I just think you know that idea of risk and how do we take risks in our in our world of uncertainty and polarization and all these other things. I think there's a there's an adventure that God has for us as we approach our work that that uh many of us have maybe yet to taste.
Bishop Wright:You know, Will Willimon, uh uh a Duke, formerly uh a bishop of the uh of the Methodist Church in Northern Alabama, uh he wrote a book called Bishop, uh, which was basically his musings on his his journey. And he talks about faith as adventure. Um and he talks about that's that's what we're missing. That's that's why there's this malaise. Um, you know, the medicine for malaise that many of us are experiencing is adventure, right? And then there's the faith life, and there's Jesus of Nazareth and his words and his way, sort of inviting us, you know, out of melees. Uh, but yeah, it comes at a cost, right? And uh, and so and so I find at least uh, you know, when I'm talking to people who are standing at those intersections, there is what we say we want and what we're willing to pay for, as you said, right? And whether we're talking in money or time or risk or energy or saying no to some things, et cetera, it's still, you know, uh, in another place, Jesus said count the cost, right?
Dr. Chip Roper:Um and discomfort is part of that cost. And and that's something that it seems that I don't know. It just doesn't seem like maybe there's as much of an appetite for.
Bishop Wright:You know, I I uh it's interesting. You went back to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Uh I think that's a great place to start uh thinking about this. I I would say yes to that. Maybe I don't know where I would point us to, but I know it feels like when I visit, so we've got 120 congregations in the Diocese of Atlanta. And so one of the great gifts that I get is I get around to talk to lots of different kinds of people: urban, suburban, expurban, you know, rural, you know, lots of different uh sort of socioeconomics education, et cetera. It's really rich. And um, you know, this 24-hour news cycle uh that bombards us with the woes of the world, um, you know, every minute of the day, uh I think has had a net effect of really paralyzing a lot of people. And and I like to say, sometimes, at least recently, maybe for the last couple of decades, we've been so Washington-minded that we've been neglectful locally. And I always try to remind Jesus, uh remind people that Jesus was a local phenomenon, right? And because he was effective locally is is even why we're talking about him now. Um, and so when people wonder with me about well, what to do in this particular climate, you know, I always invite them to think about, you know, who is their neighbor one, three, and five miles from where they're sitting, and uh, how might your gifts match up with their needs? Am I on track here or what would you add to that?
Dr. Chip Roper:Well, I guess I I think that's really true. It's it's sort of I heard um I heard somebody say actually years ago, uh it was uh most of my I did my doctoral work at the beginning of the 21st century, 2000 early 2000s, and uh one of the one of the professors said you know technology makes us uh closer to people far away and farther away from people who are near. And um I think it was Len Sweet. And um and um I think that's really I think that's really true. And and here we are, I'm in New York and you're in Atlanta, and we're having a great conversation and we see each other, we hear each other, we're close, even though geographically far away. But that means we can't be present to the people that are one, three, or five miles from us right now, you know, because we're being present to one another. And I so I think there's a whole issue of of sort of attention management, attention stewarding is maybe a better word to think about how do we steward our attention? And when we give it to the 24-7 news cycle, we're just gonna be angry and depressed, and we're not gonna be present or useful. And um so I I think there's something I think there's something to what you're saying of of helping people be um physically pre physically grounded and and and you know uh mentally present. And I I I um I mean I I say I live in I live in New York City, and it's just amazing how few like people were walking around with their phone like here. Like they're not even present on the sidewalk and um the subway, everybody's faces are glowing from their screens. Uh on an airplane, all the windows are down and we're watching our screens. We're not we've lost our appreciation of the miracle of flight of what's happening right now. We're not like really we're not really where we are. Uh we're somewhere else. So I I think there's a there's a it's probably deeper than just management because there's something about escape that is is feeding a brokenness maybe in us. I don't know, but there's because there's maybe something that makes it work for us. Um and there's you know, people spending billions of dollars basically to rob us of our attention. So that's the other part we don't think about maybe as much as we should.
Bishop Wright:Yes. Well, so so let me let me try to hit you up for some some some free advice for the listeners here. So, so what would you say to us? I mean, if if if and I think you've described a lot of us accurately in just that last little bit about uh attention is being robbed, we've given it away, uh, we're not quite the stewards of our time that perhaps we want to be. We feel some angst over that, perhaps we feel um paralyzed by the complexity and velocity of modern life. Um we believe in God, we love the wonder of creation. Um we're struggling for some clarity uh in how to channel our gifts. Well, where where where do we start? Um how do we get going?
Dr. Chip Roper:Yeah, I I would say we start where we are, and maybe we start by by being where we are. Um and to just picking up on the thread we just started to pull on. Um so how how do you start to be um more present where you are? You know, how do you so unless we think of a work context, how do you become more more present to the people you work with? Um so how do you put your phone down? You put your phone down. Um you know, you it's almost like one of the things we talk about when we work with especially busy executives on their time management is to use a technique called blocking. So only check your email three or four times a day, do it in blocks and turn it off, turn off the notifications, turn off the interruptions, and it free yourself up to be present. And so I think there's some techniques like that that are really good. Another practice, I think that there's some practices that that could be really good to help us. Um one of the one of the readers, the devotional reader um working on right now, he says, you know, we we need God every day. And I think to start your day by thinking, how am I gonna need God today? And uh to write it down in a journal, to write down what you're looking forward to as you enter your work day and what because these are places where maybe you'll expect him to show up and and to help you or provide for you or guide you, uh to look back on the day that went by and what you're grateful for. I think you know these are these are kind of fundamental rhythms that can anchor us. And I I like to do I like to write them down, uh physically write them down in a journal, not type them into my phone. Uh because I th I just feel like that again, it's sometimes psychologists call that grounding. Like you're getting physically grounded where you are instead of always being on a screen. And um so I I think those are all your those are really, really interesting things. There's a there was a I think he was 15th century, maybe 16th century monk, brother Lawrence, practicing the presence of God. Uh you've probably heard of him, but he he was a monk, which makes him sound very spiritual, but his job was kitchen duty. That's that's what his duty that's what his that's what his life was. It was washing pans and uh preparing vegetables, kind of sous chef kind of work. And he had a practice every day of of thinking about where am I going to need wisdom today, which was usually the people side, not not peeling potatoes. So he'd pray for wisdom, as God would give him wisdom, he'd pray for the grace to carry out that wisdom, because it's not enough just to have an idea of what to do. You have to have take that risk and do it. And then he would have grat then he'd express gratitude when the task was completed. So that idea of wisdom, grace, and gratitude was a cycle that he went through in his day. And I think that kind of kind of anchored his approach to his daily work in a sp in a spiritual reality. And I think all of us could do that. And um takes a while to form a habit, but you just do one little thing each day with that. I think be more present, practice some kind of spiritual liturgy as you approach your work, and I think it'll be different.
Bishop Wright:And in the and the sort of golden thread here, not only for for the average sort of listener, but particularly for people who are in business, perhaps even high functioners, is that these spiritual practices, because that's what they are, um, will yield what? Uh clarity, focus, effectiveness. Is that is that the is that sort of the promise implicit?
Dr. Chip Roper:I think all those things are included. I would I would also feel I also would suggest peace, uh, a lessening of anxiety, a sense that I'm not alone. Even if there's no human being right now that I'm connecting with in my in my workspace, I know that God is with me. Um it's kind of a fundamental promise that we see echoed often in scripture. You know, God is with us. And um and all of us, not just you know, bishops and uh doctors of of ministry. He's with all of us. Yeah.
Bishop Wright:Well, you know, I I I also want to get said as we're thinking about faith and and business and being effective and peace and contentment and lessening anxiety. I I want to I want to I want to get your mind because there's there's an assumption out there in some people's minds that excellence in business, uh even increased wealth through effectiveness and hard work somehow is antithetical to the gospel. Uh maybe you've heard something like that before. Um help us out with that. I I have some clear ideas about that, but I'd love to pick your brain.
Dr. Chip Roper:Well, there's some really wealthy figures in the biblical narrative who were absolutely central. You know, to we would just I would say God's plan at the time, people like Abra Abraham, uh Moses, uh Nehemiah, David. I mean, they are all very wealthy. Um and uh there were also people that didn't have much of anything, and we don't really know we don't really know about the apostles. Um although I you know they weren't they weren't destitute. These are not they were not they were not uh people at the lowest levels, you know, people from the street. These were working class men who had careers and businesses, so they were they were they weren't poor. Um so so I yeah, I think we yeah, we probably overemphasize that. You know, we always have to there's a there's a seduction of more that we are warned against. So it's you know living for more and sac compromising for more. But then there also can be a demonization of more. And um and you know, somebody has to pay for it. Yeah. So, you know, God uses wealthy people. There's a whole thread, uh, there's actually a book called Gospel Patrons, which goes back through some history and just talks about how in every major kind of spiritual movement there was always a business person who was very involved and very generous, and uh would not have had that capacity to do that if they weren't uh weren't successful. And uh one of my friends even even points out in the story of the Good Samaritan, um you just asked the question, it's a provocative question. Where did this where did the Good Samaritan get the money to pay the innkeeper?
Bishop Wright:Yeah. Yeah. And of course, we know uh the book of Acts tells us that were it not for Lydia, a woman uh who had uh considerable means, uh, you know, Paul would she was Paul's uh angel investor, right? Uh to get the to get the then fledgling church off the ground. And of course, my joke is that uh once Lydia starts to make her contribution, uh Paul then rethinks his theology and realizes that in Christ there's no male or female either, right? So uh it's politics and his theology get get amended, you know, quite a bit. So well, I think that's important. One of my favorite uh sort of uh biblical invitations to think about this uh is is that should wealth increase, set not your heart on it, right? So in other words, it's not the focus. You know, the more ism is not my north star, but uh it is it can come as a consequence of good and hard work. Just it's it's it's not worthy of your heart.
Dr. Chip Roper:And I see, I mean, I and this is really making a broad painting with a broad brush, but there are definitely people, many, who go into their chosen path to truly just make a lot of money. So they will not be dependent on anyone else. And it's you know, there's a parable of the wealth of the wild the wealth or the the riches of the wealthiest are fortress. They want to build a fortress for themselves and insulate themselves from the world, and it's not about uh generosity or capac creating capacity or using their gifts or being a steward of their talent, it's a it's about kind of building their own tower of Babel. That's what it is. And so that's that's that's broken. That's a broken pursuit of wealth. Um on the other hand, when you have a lot of lot of people who you run it, there's there's a whole another subset group of people who have wealth who would tell you, well, I was just doing what I felt like was my purpose to do, and this is I wasn't even really trying. It just this is what happened. Um, and I think that's uh it's an interesting contrast. And so they you know, I have a dear friend, he just he's um I ended up with way more money than I ever imagined. And um and then it becomes a challenge and uh and a calling to figure out how to distribute and how to share it and how to invest it. Um and it it's also a burden, uh, which those of us who don't have that burden would often wish we had, but by my point, it's just like there's there's there's a heavy responsibility that comes with you know, too much is given, much is expected. So it's it's uh so yeah, it's an interesting question, but I think um I don't know. I don't think I don't think I don't think God calls all of us to be wealthy, but I don't think he calls us to eschew uh we're having resources. So it's a it's a tension or a balance point or a both and that I think sometimes it's hard for us to navigate. So we either say one is good and one's bad, and it's not really black, not really black and white. How you approach it?
Bishop Wright:No, it's simplistic. Um, and you know what I love about sort of the upshot of all this is is that wherever you find yourself, you know, in the org chart, um, you know, you can be a steward of that, right? Um you can you can find the freedom of the gospel in wherever you find yourself also. Um, you know, and I think that is the redeeming message here, which is you can pursue excellence. Um, you've given us some wonderful spiritual practices uh to begin to think about. You know, what I love about that too is that spirituality is not this ethereal sort of magical fairy dust. Uh, it is grounded in sort of how you spend your time, what you do with your practices, what do you say no to, what do you say yes to? Uh so yeah, concrete, right? Well, friends, uh we've been with Dr. Chip Roper, uh, president of the VOCA Center, founder and president of the VOCA Center, a faith based organization driven to equip Christians to approach their daily work with God's wisdom and God's power. Chip, thanks very much for being with us. God bless your work.