Indian Sherman Yo, Lewis Jay Taylor. I'm down here at the annual Indian powwow with Harley Montana. I see now the drummers are getting up, they're gonna do an hour dance on this next number, I believe. Yeah, so now that
Unknown Speaker :this is a dance where all of the people, men and women join in the aisle dance is one of the dancers represented deuced into this tribe about 1900 and 10.
Unknown Speaker :By Jenkins up central Montana.
Shandin Pete :Welcome to podcast, IRC conversations with indigenous scholars to advance understandings and gain new knowledge hosted by the indigenous Research Center at Salish kootenai College All right, so you heard from the the gentleman talking there he said that that was the owl dance that there was singing or preparing to sing, and that it was introduced here on this particular reservation in 1910 by the gravano. Did you guys hear that? Yeah, I heard That's hard. Yeah. Yeah, a little hard to make out. But he also said and this was kind of If I don't know if you guys picked it up but he said the the Marissa nature he was the Mary inator cheer that word. No, nobody heard it
Jason Heavyrunner :sounded like a really old timey radio sportscaster huh yeah, yeah, we got Gary with a three and oh pitch
Shandin Pete :Yeah, that guy. Now let's
Aaron Brien :hear from Hobby bars.
Marty Lopez :This city from the city fresh.
Shandin Pete :I won't let you hijack this podcast here. Yeah, I did have that Chesterfield cigarettes. That old timey, old timey sound. Louis J. Tilly is this Louis Yeah, Lewis j tiller. I don't know a whole lot about about this gentleman. I do know a little bit, you know, he was part of a group that was was formed as a dance troupe here back in, in the late 50s. And part of kind of a revival of dance and song for the purpose of entertainment and show I think, and yeah, so he was the one who would you know what they call it today? The MC they called the Marian ater. He was the Marian ater of those. Those dances for the for the tourists and those that's a real that's a real word. Yeah, married inator apparently, well, yeah, I didn't, I didn't look it up. But I've listened to this clip many times. And he goes on to marinate the whole series of songs and says who's all there and his or her marking on the different individuals that traveled there. To, to participate in in the ardley celebration at that time. But I think one of the more significant things that is mentioned here is this. This talking about this dance that I will dance. And so I got to look into really what was what's the history of this? I will dance because we all remember that whole dance from our youth probably. Maybe, you know, it's just a dance between a man and a woman. It's kind of like a what would be the country in western equivalent kind of like a two step or
Jason Heavyrunner :something like
Shandin Pete :yeah, like a waltz, you know? And so went down on the fox trot. Well, you guys are getting to hear Dave, stay focused. Focus here, lock in. Anyway, I went down the trail. have documentation of this dance. And it appears that Yeah, the owl dance did come from the east. And it may have come from the grove one but the grove won and picked it up from the zoo, which seems like to be a familiar narrative with a lot of dances related to the, the Omaha or the Omaha and those particular dances in that area. Well, it appears that this owl dance was a derivation of an old victory dance, victory social dance. When the Sue's were part of the world war two or World War One and the defeating of the German army so they started to compose these songs. And these are composed songs. These weren't songs that were were given or gifted or received from spiritual sources. They were coming Post songs that had words that narrated their, their different victories in battle or, or on what you call it, like making fun of the enemy. So it's kind of interesting i, this this whole phenomenon of this dance from the Omaha's, that infused all the way over here to the to the west, and how it really kind of challenges the the idea or reaffirms the idea of this, these vast trade routes or these intertribal sharings of things that seemed to make sense and fit into the time period. So, one of the, one of the possible, you know, ideas to discuss that are related to particular research and researching things such as gaining new knowledge is this idea of, of gifting between tribes. to coordinate cooperation, the end
Unknown Speaker :Alright, good.
Shandin Pete :Yeah, we'll stop the recording now. That was the end of this podcast. Join us next week for a rating of war and peace. That reminds me of Seinfeld. Yeah. Well, first of all, before we continue, I got I have I have something just real quick. So this is our seventh episode. Whoo. And I yeah, and we have viewers from many different locations. And so a big thanks to to our viewership for our listenership. But um, I went I've combed through all these recordings and edited them out. And there's a lot of funny things on here. And one of them is everybody has a you Unique laugh so I'm wondering if you can identify the laugh. Are you guys ready? Oh my god identify that looks like a game show actually.
Aaron Brien :It's like yeah,
Unknown Speaker :listen really closely. already caught
Serra Hoagland :like hiding. listen
Shandin Pete :very closely, and I hope this is loud enough, but we'll find that ready. No, no chuckling listen.
Aaron Brien :Oh, that's that's you shot. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker :that's that's you Shawn Dean. What is that you want again?
Shandin Pete :Listen again. That's Aaron. That's good friend Aaron Brynn Casey faculty.
Unknown Speaker :Aaron.
Kamiah Dumontier :Tonight again. He's funny. Listen, other laugh. Yeah, you want Aaron. You can
Marty Lopez :mimic that
Aaron Brien :like play it again. Let me see.
Shandin Pete :Okay, ready? Here we go. Ready. Quiet. Okay, I'll do it again. Do it again.
Unknown Speaker :Yeah, here we go. Ready?
Brenda Shepard 2 :Funny. That's a good
Aaron Brien :dude. I'm killing it.
Shandin Pete :Okay, here's another one. Are you ready? We'll do one more then we'll talk. Okay, this one you won't get ready, go.
Unknown Speaker :Sarah Sarah.
Shandin Pete :gasping for air. Someone
Serra Hoagland :very senior right here.
Aaron Brien :I don't think it's horrible. It's like when you hear your voice on an answering machine.
Shandin Pete :Okay, so tell me then, um, what are your thoughts on this and how this all this relates to really our goal is defining a research methodology and how I like the word that you started with, you jumped out the gate with social order. And what came to mind immediately was rabbit dancing. The rabbit dance is a form of owl dancing, but it was more for geared towards younger people to try to get them geared to warm up to the opposite sex and try to socially teach them how to interact you know, I don't know what their definitions or boundaries of young people were, but I'm, you know, I imagine middle schoolers high schoolers and
Jason Heavyrunner :I thought that was a good connection. And he said, The topic is something that I think kind of rattles around in our heads. But this is an interesting podcast because you can put words on it. Yeah, you know? Yeah. Then I'll bounce back to what you were talking about from Being around the drum, you get a chance to visit a lot, you know, you know, Aaron and Sean, you know, you get a little chance to pick up this and that and a lot of storytelling and being around Belknap and just trooper around there for years and years. That really is in sync with the Dakotas and the colony dancing, and how that goes back. And then if you use that social order, again, There's a whole lot of protocols to men and women and how they interact. And you know how many dance that came from a guy named Lance long and then early 1970s, and it was about 1971 that he brought it from Fort Peck, who Belknap and assiniboine started using homely dances and the only difference that you can really take and you can parallel dancing and calmly dancing calmly dancing will have different social protocols. So calmly dancing back to the social order of things, is a man will take his hat off, he has his hat off when dancing with a woman and the nerd. It goes a little bit further where if a man doesn't take his head off, the woman can find him in on it's an all in good. Hold on good in good taste and no ill will but it's just the teaching manners basically, right now you go out, you dance for song, you don't just start one song and dance to maybe or maybe three you have to dance all four together and they have you know, I guess an MC or stick man may determine a man's choice or woman's choice they'll give a man a stick or a woman a stick and then it's their choice if you know who's initiating manner man or woman. And again, it just holds us back to that social order. And I had never even thought about these things, but it really is kind of giving each other teaching etiquette, you know and kind of wants us and how we interact with each other. They have a, they have a thing where you can dance with anybody. Public dance, you can dance with your in laws. You can dance with your outlaws. You can dance with anybody
Unknown Speaker :back into circulation, but they
Shandin Pete :goes out felons today called felons. Dance with felons.
Jason Heavyrunner :She broke five hearts. That's a felony.
Unknown Speaker :Hey.
Shandin Pete :No, no, I know I agree. And, and you can see that, you know, even if it's not stated, you know, per se or written down that Oh, hey, yeah, this dance here is a teaches our use the manners. I don't think anybody's naturally going to say that or, I at least I've never really heard it but, you know, in a, in a way it does. And then, you know, we just kind of move forward without putting words on it. Right? We do. So then, um, yeah, I remember seeing the apple dance. You
Brenda Shepard 2 :growing up and stuff, but I've never really seen anybody decline it What happened? what's the what's the social etiquette on like? being like, no, no thanks. I pass or or Kenny Can you
Jason Heavyrunner :turn I know you turned down a lot of women
Aaron Brien :they take your enrollment number away
Brenda Shepard 2 :Hey doubt it
Unknown Speaker :your blood quantum drops
Aaron Brien :Hey first yeah before we start What about Jason dropping mad knowledge just now yeah no
Unknown Speaker :party or what
Jason Heavyrunner :the same stories you know you guys went around the world and you know you get a chance to sit down and ask somebody so you know I'm gonna waiting for him to chime in about push dancing and we'll get there we'll because they have different social etiquettes and protocols there as well
Aaron Brien :so so now that we got a public forum here and we got Jason the Jason heavy running On on the mic hot on the mic, we have to call him out to all those power people over the years that were a victim of the corndog bandit. He's live back in the day I fell victim to the corndog bandit twice. Well, the
Jason Heavyrunner :other thing is, when you were taking pictures, taking a group picture, we would drop the camera and take all the heads off the picture. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker :Pictures need to be
Aaron Brien :on two weeks later when they develop the pictures and I know Jason or Shawn Dean always got double later. So you just
Unknown Speaker :lost these just
Jason Heavyrunner :ignorant move.
Unknown Speaker :So what we're
Aaron Brien :talking about here is back in the day when you stand around a drum and you record songs and And these tapes became precious. They were kind of these little things. Do you have Ford hall? Do you have Ford to Shane? Do you? Whatever right? Well, every once in a while you'd be listening to your recording of crow fair in 1996 and black whistles rockin a tune and then all of a sudden the recording stops and someone gets on the mic and goes, corn dog. comes back. Right over
Unknown Speaker :right over the painted Horse Song.
Aaron Brien :You couldn't leave your recorder sitting around or you dare not hand your recorder to Jason. He's Yeah, he's front row. He's right, right up against you know, the boys are big bear and you're like hey, record for me. And then he drops a corn dog on your recording. So I'm calling you out. Now. All the corn dog victims. I left my
Jason Heavyrunner :fingerprint. All over those all over
Aaron Brien :from 91 to 2001, you fell victim.
Unknown Speaker :Follow world,
Jason Heavyrunner :zookeeper zookeeper somewhere.
Aaron Brien :I got I got a mess up.
Shandin Pete :This is getting real specific. But we had him on like guys and I had to call him out. The corn dog bandit is in the house. So, so yeah. So let's let's give Jason the official introduction. And we're glad you can join us here today. Jason heavy Renner is on our advisory board at the indigenous Research Center. He was chosen to guide us after that story. I don't know though.
Aaron Brien :he's a he's a changed
Unknown Speaker :man. Cut off credibility. He's a
Aaron Brien :guy. He's bonafide.
Shandin Pete :So now Jason is He's got a master's in social work. Is that right? Yeah. Okay, master's in social work. Yeah, yeah. So he's, uh, he's got his boots on the ground helping out to people. So um, we're thankful that we have his wisdom guiding us. And he's a younger lad. Holy Jason, you want to say?
Unknown Speaker :I am 46 hesitates, he had to count.
Shandin Pete :Oh, am I
Unknown Speaker :gonna lie or not? Yeah.
Shandin Pete :So, we're glad to have Jason on today. And, and, of course, we we know that he has a vast amount of knowledge in his, uh, his experiences. So yeah. Which he displayed some of that. Yeah, just now just now. So I'd like to hear some follow up on that. Aaron. Yeah, no.
Aaron Brien :Yeah, go ahead. Well, Jason brought up the push tent, which is kind of has the same roots. it correlates right in the same era as the owl dance. Now, what's interesting about this is that kids in the back
Brenda Shepard 2 :Yeah, I don't know. I checked, it's not mine.
Shandin Pete :It's got a bunch of kids running around back there.
Marty Lopez :Sorry. It's the neighborhood kids out the window.
Shandin Pete :Oh, I can mute that out afterwards. Okay. All right. Yeah. So I'm gonna shut up.
Marty Lopez :I'm on the third floor. They can't hear me.
Aaron Brien :So, in Marty, Marty, you feel free to jump in with whatever knowledge you have on this, this topic of push dance. But before we talk about the push dance, I think it's important to talk about the era in which all of these dances are like going off by wildfire. So that the religious And happened to tribes, right around 1880. Right? You can, you can argue different times. But it really goes until the early 1920s. Then all of a sudden, john Collier lifts certain restrictions on the dance ban, and one of those was in celebration of America's independence, or for tourism. So, so that's why there's all these powers on the Fourth of July, right. But there's also a lot of powers near like train stations where there's train stops, historically, there are train stops in certain places. But also, they would disguise certain religious ceremonies, with social dance. So like at the end of a ceremony, they would have a dance to kind of mask it as something social. So then, and I also think that's why the graston ceremony takes off from about 1900 to 1950 is because it looked it It looked they would have these things called house dances. And I talked to my grandma about this. And she'd say, really late at night, somebody would walk around from house to house and say, we're going to have a dance. And so they come over and they take all the furniture out, and everyone have a dance in the house and you saw the crow the way the crow had done it differently. And I've taught our dance and push dance correlate real close. So it's a lot of the same protocols. So they'd say, You're not allowed to dance with your wife.
Unknown Speaker :Hmm.
Aaron Brien :And that's one thing that makes a difference because crows really look down upon jealousy. See, and they said, a jealous man will not be social. So he'll only stick with his wife. So they say, my making a rule just make the rule that you can, you know, you gotta you gotta dance with other people. And typically you'll dance with your wife sisters, right? And there's even like money exchanges where you'll kind of buy somebody will put money on their shoulders like dollar bills or a fruit basket. And if you dance with them, then you get that. I have heard of people saying if they refuse, then they have to pay for Yeah. Yeah, so but these songs were kind of inspired by this they took the owl dance beat. So pushdown songs have words in them like in relation to being in love or being lonely for for your loved one or like, I know there's some crow lyrics where talks about them Your family tries to keep us apart. But I'll do everything I can to be with you. You know, these kinds of things so and interesting. And when I talk to some of these older folks, they say World War Two is what kicked it off. Because there was actually a lonesome feeling anyway from a lot of people. So a lot of these push 10 songs, these songs, even the Kiowa 49 songs, a lot of them were composed during the World War Two era so Huh, we call it popular. Popular means to push forward. Oh, so that's why they call it a push dance but
Jason Heavyrunner :could you speak something to doorway songs? I hear right here doorway songs. I think. I hear that parallel. Singing Yes. Meaning doorway songs
Aaron Brien :are their own genre of music but they're the tone is the same like the it's it's love songs. It's, um, I miss you. In fact, there's a famous story of a crow war party that comes to attack, the Salish and one of the crow men was actually a hidatsa man. And he was wounded by the Salish. So he goes into a cave, and he tells the people tell my wife where I'm at. So they actually paint her a map with red clay on a hide. And she she comes back, but one of the ways she finds him is by singing a song. So she sings this song, and she kind of they imply that this song kind of is the inspiration for her and all this and they still sing that song today, but there's some acapella and they're typically like kind of the same idea. I love you. I miss you. I want to be with you. You're the one for me. There's another story of a of a man and a woman where the husband dies. And the woman Here's a song at night. And and she follows it in it's her husband singing that song. And so she remembered the song and then it's it's another, it's another doorway song. They call them doorstep singers because in years past, a man could go to a woman's Lodge and sing in front of the lodge. And if she came out, and she could take his hand, and then she would be with him. If not, she would come out and give him something and give them a gift. And the gift signified. Finish your song. And when you're done, though, go about your business. And so, and that became a tradition at crow fair was to go from camp to camp and sing these songs. They're associated a lot with partying, but that's not the roots of them. Like the roots of the songs was to sing, sing, sing, and just have a good time, I guess and fall in love.
Jason Heavyrunner :And here I thought, john Cusack invented singing outside the door. Oh,
Aaron Brien :fidelity thing
Jason Heavyrunner :I don't know what movie was outside the house and he's blasting his music
Aaron Brien :corndog was an obscure reference but damn i fidelity reference on Indian research show
Shandin Pete :yeah
Jason Heavyrunner :you have the process and the format but the content is always typically love love or broken love or love or they'll say one of the main words and even non crows know this word and love this idea of love is so powerful among tribes that we've been no increase a Nietzsche moves right. And like even non trees know that term to be like your sweetheart. In crow it's a watershed Gada the one I love So,
Aaron Brien :ah
Shandin Pete :Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, you know all this. This this theme with it. I think we talked about it in one episode about the love and the love medicine, you know. And when I was researching this particular topic of the whole dance, I seen it more associated with the, the slum or what, what? More typically it's called in in the English is the is the scalp dance primarily because, like around here growing up as a youth, you know to answer Jason's question, you know what happens if you refuse? You know, we were always told as a kid, you know, if a girl comes ask you to dance, you're gonna have to if you don't want to do it, you got to pay her $5 you know, and, and, you know, we never really asked where that come from or what any of that means. It just means you got to you got to pay them something for for asking. But it was really closely aligned to this idea of the gift dance, where if you wanted to, you know, With them not in that whole dance style but you know you you dance with them arm and arm. Then at the end of the dance the the person officiating the the the dance would come over and help facilitate the exchange of gifts and then announce to the people in the area that here is, uh, here's the reason why this person is giving this gift to this person. And the songs you know, all these songs are very, very, their beat is all aligned. And so I thought maybe it was aligned with that idea of the of the seed loan or the scalp dance, which also came over from from the east in that time, but um, you know, I'm not sure and the information we just heard now seems to seems to be no, what's interesting
Aaron Brien :is I heard I heard some stories about different individuals over time, I guess in the past, where they would approach the family of that individual approach a woman, a young woman and say, We want you to marry our husband or Mrs. Our son, right? Yeah. And and that person could could say, yeah, I'll do it. I'll marry your son or the family of that daughter could say, basically say, Hey, thanks for the offer, and then give gifts to that family. They'll say no, we're not going to take that nap family takes that. The gifts. So it seems like this idea of gift giving with refusal is very common. Like it's Yeah, common. So yeah, yeah. It softens the blow maybe.
Shandin Pete :Yeah, you know, there's, there's this. There's this body of research today in the UK called moral psychology. And these researchers actually did this huge, huge global study on all these different types of societies of different sizes and different religions. And they're trying to come about a core set of values or moral constructs that seemed to fit predominantly each group. And cooperation was a really huge one that was a that was seen across across all societies and the maintenance of cooperation was, it seems to make sense, you know, if you want to, even between tribes, if you want to maintain peace, well, you have to broker that in some way. If you want to maintain peace and stability within your tribal group, well, there should be a process to do that as well. So what Jason was talking about, about manners and etiquette, those are really important to maintaining good, good cooperation and in good, good social order. And yeah, I think Aaron was talking about the good and
Aaron Brien :it also seems that attitudes, certain types of attitudes come along with these dances. So they'll say like, don't come in and in Bring certain types of vibes right and like jealousy seems to be kind of the sunburn don't don't act somehow as they say in peachy acquitted
Brenda Shepard 2 :they say that everywhere
Aaron Brien :somehow
Shandin Pete :you're looking at me somehow. Some way. Oh, you said that.
Aaron Brien :I think you're muted Jason
Unknown Speaker :Oh, he's not I heard him I heard him. I couldn't
Unknown Speaker :hear him.
Jason Heavyrunner :I said that's it. They're originally came from Petia
Aaron Brien :Yeah, it's English language.
Brenda Shepard 2 :People are out there like googling where P Xing is
Unknown Speaker :what is PC
Aaron Brien :card and drive thru PC.
Shandin Pete :Yeah. Get over it. I want to. I'd like to hear from other people on the team. We've got Ken Yeah, here and Brenda and Sarah and we also got our Visiting Scholar. Marty, I like to hear from one of you guys, and what are your thoughts on some of these things we just got done talking about?
Kamiah Dumontier :I mean, the thing goes straight. Okay. So the thing that strikes me about some of these is that it's, it's missing, you're talking about you're, you're missing something, or you're lonely for something or like you're doing without, and it. It's really interesting because I didn't know any of this history. And then just thinking about what the songs do. Like they're giving you something you're talking about. They're providing a kind of social order. They're providing a way to, you know, maintain that community, which, I mean, it works with, you know, where it came from, or why you're doing it, which is really, really interesting to me. But then the other part too, about how like that, it seems like it's the same thing when you were talking about the The social dances masking ceremony, like you're missing that you want that and so you're doing this to, to like to get that thing and I guess maybe the Yeah, it just that that whole idea of you know asking for something, and then having a way to refuse without, you know making people upset or whatever that is. That's really cool. And yeah, I can see how all of this stuff. It works. It does the thing that you want, it gives you that thing. And it's amazing to me that like, all right, I've been around this and I've been able to get those things without knowing Hey, this came from whoever it came from. And it happened at this time and that came from somewhere else. It's almost like it says the thing is more important like these dances are more important than yeah origin Maybe, or I don't know, do you guys think that maybe it's focusing on the dance and what it does and how you can fulfill this thing that you're missing? Or is it about like You know, not not holding on to like ownership of the, you know, the origin. Like that isn't a big deal. I mean, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what to make of that. I think you're right. I think the the the end The end game is important or what you got from it. And sometimes the origin of it is not as critical. The reason I bring that up is there was a lot of cross culture pollination during the 1950s when we when the government was started the relocation program, you know, there were 31,000 Indians who left the reservation
Jason Heavyrunner :The nine to five, you know, game. And when they left the reservation, they brought a lot of their community knowledge to a setting that was the landscape that was not accepting of them. And of course, Indians will always find Indians wherever you're at. So I think there was a lot of sharing in that era. And then when you realize that this is not the thing, my jam, I'm going back, I'm going back to PC, and I want and when I go back, it happened to have all this extra knowledge, you know, that you can actually bring back and start to grow roots. And it's, it is interesting, and I like what you said. You get the needs are met. Mm hmm. Yeah, matters. Yeah. Yeah. Brenda or Sarah, in your response to that I just want to add on to cam Yes. And that's a very good point to take is that it doesn't matter.
Brenda Shepard 2 :Really where the origin came is that it came in, it's stuck in, it's accepted. And it's a really good time. You know, I've seen the apple dance for a long time. And I guess I've never really thought twice about where it came from, or, you know, the etiquette behind it, but it's just something I always saw. So
Shandin Pete :cool. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah, I
Serra Hoagland :guess I'll yeah, I'll add just a couple of things here. So Jason brought up the fact that in the 50s, it was relocation area, but it was also termination era, too. So there are a lot of trips that, sadly, were being terminated at that time, which you think today is like, almost unbelievable to think about even being possible. But I think you're right, Jason. And that's what probably drove some of this. cross pollination, this sharing of stories and songs and traditions and things like that. So yeah, but we can't forget that there is also this terrible, terrible part of that history as well as being turned related. But I don't know, I'm trying to think of the parallels and the dances that we're talking about here and some of the dances that I've seen back home in Laguna, back in New Mexico in our closet. And I very distinctly remember what we were just talking about, about etiquette and morals and values and things being taught through the dances that you're seeing. So it's just neat to see some of those parallels to and start thinking about that. And to play devil's advocate, I think, if you can directly link or the roots of a particular processes, that's always nice to know.
Unknown Speaker :Or, yeah,
Aaron Brien :well, you got to be the devil to do that, though. Why do we even have to go there?
Shandin Pete :Well, well, I think, I think the you know, we say origin doesn't matter, but I think to a lot of tribes. It does. There is some territorial ism concerned with we can make Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa somebody's rubbing their mic.
Aaron Brien :Okay, Jason that's what I was gonna say.
Shandin Pete :Your belly was rubbing
Unknown Speaker :belly,
Aaron Brien :your belly rubbing on the mic.
Brenda Shepard 2 :Jesus hope you come back.
Shandin Pete :Oh my gosh. Oh
Aaron Brien :wait a second did john Dean just say use of it? He's used to there's no V and used to it.
Shandin Pete :Well, here it is. Okay. Don't tell me. She's like don't tell me how to talk.
Unknown Speaker :This is coming from a wrestler that says the word coalesce.
Marty Lopez :Dude, you from agency row Don't ask.
Unknown Speaker :China say,
Jason Heavyrunner :yeah.
Shandin Pete :My couch yesterday, and they get this call from Aaron and yeah hello. He said hey, yeah what's up Aaron? Hey, what does coalesce mean? Again? Google it. I didn't say that I told him what it was. I said, Man, you grew up in a generation where you have the information at your fingertips but you don't know how to use it. And he said, No, I grew up in a generation where you call people
Unknown Speaker :or you talk to people.
Aaron Brien :Yeah, dude, the whole time. We're not leading and he's saying and we're gonna coalesce.
Unknown Speaker :I'm like nodding my head.
Unknown Speaker :In agreement. I call it an Bro.
Shandin Pete :Anyway go What
Aaron Brien :are we gonna say? Well, maybe I don't know if Marty wants to say something because let's Let's have him jump in on this because I do piggyback off a cameo. So,
Marty Lopez :Marty go, Well, I'm not an expert in anything. But I guess just my personal thoughts on this matter is kind of brings up past subjects that we've talked about, like romanticism and stuff like that. And what was going through my head with all this talk is, a lot of times outsiders, non natives will like see every song as like, some sort of like, ceremony and sacred thing that you have to like. Everybody has to be quiet and everybody has to focus on what's happening. It's some kind of real sacred thing happening, but But what are these songs, mostly about love and being lonely for somebody you love. What and that's, you know, what we hear on the radio with popular songs and it makes us are it just kind of points to the fact that we're humans we we have human feelings and Is don't just kind of an obvious I like to point out obvious things because it's like, a lot of times we we like, you know, we're trying to do our jobs here and a lot of times people will you and you guys are awesome at knowing the backstory to all this stuff and coalescing traditions.
Shandin Pete :Good at coalescing all right area.
Marty Lopez :Ultimately, I do like to coalesce on the obvious observation. I like to I like to use words, wrongly on purpose. Just to see if you're paying attention. Yeah,
Aaron Brien :a Marty's right though. So this brings up something that my grandmother told me Yes, I'm right this time. It kind of makes me think about like any among Indian music, any song we're singing hat does have a level of, like sacredness to it. I don't want to say sacredness, but, but my grandmother used to say when you sing it's like praying twice, right? And so, yeah, and if you look through the entirety of the catalog of native music, one of the few times native men, especially in the plains truly express themselves is through song. So, yeah, it was kind of also seen as a counseling session and, and a way to kind of release some stress and but what I was gonna say about what Kamiya I said is that Jason is it Marty it's Marty cuz it popped I touched a piece of paper. He touched paper to pen
Unknown Speaker :Who did that?
Aaron Brien :So for those of you who think were no storm that was Marty moving a paper on his desk. So we saw so Robert Louis, who was an anthropologist in the early 1900s, and studying the crows, and I think this statement can apply to a lot of Native people. He says the crows Seeing very little interest in the value success over antiquity. That's what he says. The crows value success over antiquity, which there's some truth in that, and what he's saying is like, kind of what can be I said, Yeah, we could talk about origins and how long things have been around. And that's, that's a very European way of looking at like things seniority and like, who's been here the longest. I mean, there's definitely some of that in the country. But what he said, is basically saying if if it works, they do it. So there's no need to have this. Yeah, be practical. There's no need to be like, well, we're not going to do that because it comes from the sewer. We're not going to do that. No, they valued other people's rites and rituals just as much, because if they seen success in it, they wanted it and that's why these these ceremonies and things were diffused so easily and accepted so easily is because they saw value in them. Yeah.
Shandin Pete :So true. So true. And I think a really important component in what we're doing and what we're going to do in the future to hope what's Jason doing my turn off?
Unknown Speaker :No, no.
Shandin Pete :You're good.
Aaron Brien :He's saying he was like, You know what? I'm tired of this guy. I'm gonna start hitting Mike. Hey, that's the academic form of corndog.
Shandin Pete :Again, well, Hey, you know what, let's um, let's listen to this next song. We'll take a little short break. But first, whose laugh is this? Are you ready? Whose laugh is this?
Unknown Speaker :Oh, that's Marina.
Brenda Shepard 2 :Selena Selena.
Shandin Pete :You can To hear it again.
Kamiah Dumontier :Yes. Well
Shandin Pete :okay, sorry. Okay, one more. You ready? Who is this?
Aaron Brien :Oh, that's Marty
Shandin Pete :my listen to it again is a good one. This cracks me up every time I hear it kind of makes me happy.
Aaron Brien :You should have that ready, man.
Unknown Speaker :You should have that ready like just on loop or cycle Yeah,
Shandin Pete :yeah, just just hit it whenever somebody just smiles just hit it.
Unknown Speaker :That's my
Marty Lopez :that's my laugh I do just to make sure everybody knows I was just kidding.
Unknown Speaker :That's the I joke.
Marty Lopez :What's weird is I practice these laughs I town and I well I just do it for fun. You know I was told once even fake laughter improves your like mood and kind of has all the health benefits as real laughter probably not as good but even fake laughing so go ahead and fake laugh once in a while guys it's okay
Aaron Brien :we don't laugh
Unknown Speaker :Don't laugh no
Unknown Speaker :story time
Shandin Pete :Okay, here we go second song. You ready?
Aaron Brien :Oh second song northern Korea give us four stars.
Unknown Speaker :Hey, hey.
Aaron Brien :Recording or Hello.
Serra Hoagland :I like to
Aaron Brien :think go Sean Dean.
Shandin Pete :Yeah, I had my mic on mute. I was really blown around with you guys. That that song was a another example of a dance song sung in 1950, by Paul Finley. And again, this is an example of a introduced song. And it's a it was in line again with some of the other types of gift dancing and in our dancing and round dancing and some of the some of the older folks around that time and a 50s. You know, had different ideas of where these songs came in. Some of them would say they came in from the Blackfoot, someone said that coming from the Crow, and then in the 1900s, there was kind of a shared belief that this this type of dance and song, like Aaron was saying, among the crows, that it only happened at night. So again, there's that kind of connection between between this, this, these types of dances and the songs and the time in which they were to traditional ways that we see, I guess that's traditional today. So it brings in this idea of, you know, and we kind of talked about it, but you know, people like to claim ownership of things and make it part of their collective authentic identity. But you know, if you really become a student of the singing and of songs, that were fortunate to have some people here who really understand that we can get to see that, you know, the idea of the authentic, authentic indigenous traditions, or as maybe not so authentic in the way that some people think, which is not a bad thing. Not a bad thing at all, but what are you guys's thoughts on that? identity?
Jason Heavyrunner :Well, there's an identity in the music Like weight the way Aaron describe how you unfold a song and Khomeini's bounces a little bit different than an owl dance bounce, crease, definitely have that. I don't know what you call on a triple beat. Yeah, so you you when you go ahead and crack out a song based on their beat. You can kind of already hear where it's coming from.
Kamiah Dumontier :Yeah,
Shandin Pete :yeah. Yeah, that seems to be a kind of an important topic and a lot of matters. You know, even as far as art is concerned, you know, the expression of ideas and in artistic creations, beadwork designs, par Fletch designs, but it really leans on the idea that Aaron was talking about about what is it what does he say antiquity? What was that phrase you often say there, Aaron? What does he say? Do you say equity over success? Or no? Is that what you say? Eric? says, or antiquity? Yeah. And again, it's it just aligns with that about, you know, how do we frame our identity? Do we have to look back 100 years? Do we have to look back 200 years 1000 years to affirm our identity? Do we have to be those things that happened in that time period? Or can we really embody what we do now today as our authentic selves?
Aaron Brien :Yeah, it's kind of like is a bowling ball when it's rolling through the lane? Is it a bowling ball the whole time? Or is it just a bowling ball at the beginning, or at the end? That's how like Indian people it doesn't matter what stage in evolution we are. We're still native people. And as long as that evolution in culture happens somewhat naturally, it seems like it's guided this by by Indian ideals and concepts, you know, but what It's really crazy when something totally foreign thrown into it in a very abrupt fashion and then, man that that could really wreck the psychology of a tribe or a people you know?
Shandin Pete :Yeah. What is an example of something like that?
Aaron Brien :Well, alcohol Yeah. And at first I thought, well, what did you say Sarah? Oh, Western? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we could name a number of things and in some forms Sara's example is more dangerous because Western education was masked as something good. Mm hmm. And really all it did it replaced an entire way of thinking, you know, and all the while native people kind of knew there was a conflict right? We could feel the conflict happening and and you kind of you understand it's happening but yet, man like we still kind of did it and, and, You're the white man's equal without it, you're a victim. But really, it's like he doesn't he's not saying it like that. He's saying, like, basically use what you can from it, because otherwise this whole thing is gonna eat you up. You know, it's a different tone. You know?
Kamiah Dumontier :I think that examples really hard though, because if you think about like, a, the intent of education is, you know, you're told it's supposed to be this good thing. And there's a lot of people in education who were trying to do a really good thing. And then you're looking out at, you know, the western predominant society. And it seems to be two really good things for most of them. So there's like this.
Aaron Brien :yeah, yeah, and I think indian indian people in Indian country, we have to be fully aware of the difference between something that appears to be working, versus something that's actually working. And a lot of times we seem to, like lean towards things that might look like they're working. And, and that's kind of how I would say, education is it's you ever see that? Like, if anyone's ever had like kind of Henri uncle or mean dad or something and you're like, hurt, scrape your elbow and they'll say, Well, let me here Give me your finger you know, they'll give me it's kind of the same thing like Indian education and Indian countries always been like Yeah, let's go to the impoverished and disenfranchised and then give them this thing. Of course, it's going to look better than what we're going through. Yeah, and it's gonna look like looks like well, I can go there and eat I can go there and and even today, we still have that issue where kids on reservations are having a hard time finding meals and and so they can go to school, find some sense consistency. So it's like it has the appearance of being something good. All the while is teaching you to really be countered to what's natural to you, you know, very true, but how it's very true pace, you know without it, I think that's, boy. Well, it's, it's tough. It's tough. And I would say, I don't have the answer. I don't think I'm ever gonna have the answer. But I think what we have to do support ideas of like, the Do It Yourself mentality, right? Like Indian people have to have the DIY, right? Mm hmm. Because at least I mean, we can have education but as long as we have some level of independence Spirit are not not just independent spirit, but like independent, applicable ideas and mechanics. Like that. That's where we can kind of be still be who we are, but as long as we're gonna, I I'm gonna say something that's kind of offensive and you For me, that's an education. As long as we kind of buy this philosophy that somehow education can help us be more Indian. I don't buy it, man. Oh yeah, I don't buy it and and I'm kind of getting tired of like Indian Education using this as you're a modern more your Indian is diplomas are your new and it's like man like let's not mask it, let's just use it for what it is it's a tool that we can use and as long as we keep it utilitarian, I think we're fine. But if we try to infuse it as a philosophical notion into the way we think that's where it gets dangerous. Yeah, no, I Yeah, I agree, man. I agree. And that's, um, that's one of the dangers that we we face as educators, you know, in our own way, you know, how much how much influence Do we have to really break that Western education mold in our own in our own way of educating
Shandin Pete :Young native people in, in the tribal colleges. But then again, you know, we're approaching this this thing that we're trying to create. And we really have to try to center ourselves and ensure that we're not just appeasing some system that we're, we've grown accustomed to. So that's, you know, the idea of really trying to get at the heart of our our own philosophical commitments, our own theoretical foundations of learning and understanding, but really, in a modern sense, I think is is really the approach that we're taking right now by having these discussions by fleshing out the things that we think are very important. And then how do we infuse or for Aaron, how do we coalesce? How do we coalesce all that into a structure that seems to combat or to fight that that big force of education that we've been we've been subjected to Okay, so let's um, let's do this. One more or a couple more laughs Who can tell me? I see who haven't done yet. I think I've done everybody. Oh, no. Laugh is this Are you ready? Hey, listen closely.
Unknown Speaker :Brenda, Brenda
Shandin Pete :that was that come from the region. Yeah, way down
Serra Hoagland :the microphone bunker.
Unknown Speaker :Yeah,
Marty Lopez :that's a good one. Isn't it?
Shandin Pete :Nice and cheery, who's laugh I think I know I'm done everybody who's this
Unknown Speaker :Oh, bad guy.
Shandin Pete :Why did I?
Unknown Speaker :Oh? Yeah.
Unknown Speaker :You can't trick.
Shandin Pete :No, it's Yeah, it's way too easy. All right, so what are we talking about here? Now? What? Let's wrap it in. Let's bring it in.
Serra Hoagland :From the bowling alley path.
Shandin Pete :The bowling alley. Yes. So I you know, I don't know how bad analogy.
Aaron Brien :That's a bad idea. No one else does.
Marty Lopez :Yeah. Well, the
Aaron Brien :bowling balls moving. It doesn't matter where it's at. It's still a bowling ball,
Unknown Speaker :the path
Shandin Pete :right the path The path. So this idea of identity, you know, some people get can get hung up on it, I think and some folks can use it as a tool of oppression. Use it as a tool of, you know, trying to elevate themselves by saying they're more native because they do such and such activities. Amen. Let's talk about that. Yeah, that's, that's what we're doing. We're doing it right now. What we're doing right now. I mean, like right now. Right now we're doing it. I mean, like then right now. Right? Exactly this minute now. Boom. It's almost like here. Yeah.
Aaron Brien :Man, this is this is a thing. This is like a real thing. Who's more Indian? Who's more this and man it is. You know? When I think of this, I think immediately of like, what my grandparents would say to something like that, like, almost like a shame on you. Like, why would you say that about your own cousins or somebody I just feel like a grandparent would never, you know, try to make that hierarchy or something. It's just not me. I'm blaming grandparents. For this.
Shandin Pete :No, yeah, I get it, I get it. And I think, and I can't speak for everybody, but um, we may or may not have all been a part of the ugly end of identity. And maybe we've even been a part of, you know, shaming other people for being less than. And it's, it's really an important one. And I think this some, again, this our mission in this research center, we're going to have to address it and we're going to have to make sure that we're pretty clear on on our understandings and our thinking and related to it. And we don't definitely do not want to cast anybody out or elevate anybody up beyond what they deserve. But we really do need to address it, what it is, what makes Is there even a such thing as an authentic indigenous identity today? Go Go ahead, hit it, somebody
Aaron Brien :Second, you're just I mean, the question is, it's obvious question, right? Of course, there's an authentic identity. We're all we are all. We are there. Yeah. Here's another thing. It's like, identities identity. No one. I mean, it's what it is. Yeah. We know that part. But yeah, but I do think there's actually some legitimate argument into being like, what makes you tribal is a shared identity. That's right. Being tribal is and I think a lot of times people want to say, Well, this is how I feel. Well, that's cool. And I respect that. But that's American men, tribal people. There is a shared belief, there's a shared idea. That's what makes you a tribe. tribe, by definition is not an individual.
Shandin Pete :Correct? Yeah.
Marty Lopez :I said, Well, Rick, Yeah,
Kamiah Dumontier :I agree. With that. Aaron said, I want to add To this idea, because I think that even within like this, so within a tribe, you've got this collective identity, you, you know, it's it's us, this is who we are. Yeah, there's still room in that for this idea of who I am, that you're a member of the tribe, and you're doing that in a slightly different way than another person is. You know, does that make sense? Yeah. That that I agree that there is this tribal identity. And it I don't know, coincides with the personal identity, like each person has to do that in a slightly different way. Otherwise, you've got this, you know, group of clones, if that makes sense. So it's, I don't know, I'm not saying this, right, because it sounds like I'm disagreeing when in fact, I agree. I'm immediately
Aaron Brien :immediately offended. Okay. I get what you're saying. Yeah. And I don't I don't want people to think somehow like I'm some kind of like culture Nazi or something. But I do for you. Yeah, no, super you. I do think I do think there's been a couple of Seinfeld references in this show. I do. I do think we use our feelings sometimes as a as a crutch or like a cop out. Sometimes we'll say, Well, this is how I feel. So therefore you, it doesn't matter. You got to accept it. This is how I feel. And it's like, well, I get that and I respected but at the same time, too. There is an underlying idea of uniformity among tribal people. And that's what makes us a tribe. But I get what you're saying. The individuality does exist within that system. And there's a limit to it because if you take that too far, then you're not going to be a part of the tribe anymore. Like there aren't going to be
Kamiah Dumontier :Yeah, so
Marty Lopez :yeah, for sure.
Aaron Brien :No, can I ask a question that might be like, considered offensive. But I think most people can chime in on this. But I, I don't know if this is fortunate or unfortunate, but I grew up in CRO agency that came out wrong. Both my both my parents are crow Indians. All my grandparents are crow Indians, all my great grandparents is there because now my kids are half right. My kids are half Blackfeet and have crow. So for those of you who who have shared heritage, or is Has that ever been an issue for any of you like Is that a thing that because I'm I'm legitimately concerned because I want to know because my kids are mixed. Are they going to have these questions? Are they going to see themselves as mixed are your I mean, it's a no brainer when you kind of wake up in both your parents are Crow and you're like, oh, I guess I'm crow today, you know? Yeah. And so I'm curious. This is a legitimate question I actually want to know.
Shandin Pete :Yeah. Anybody know So yeah, you know, I grew up here gnarly Montana and my mom Salish and my dad, Navajo. And you know, I grew up with an identity that was formed here, in our early in, living in, in the, between the 70s and 80s and 90s. So I grew up really understanding more about my my Salish, understandings and ways and not so much about my Navajo ways and understandings, but because of blood quantum requirements and federal recognition and those kind of things. I didn't have enough blood to be enrolled here on in this Confederacy of tribes. So I happened to be enrolled in In the Navajo, but you know, the in the eyes of people, despite being have never lived anywhere else despite never exhibiting any Navajo traits. People will still refer to me as a Navajo. And it was it. It's kind of it was, you know, at a certain period of time it was concerning like, Well, no, I, my my dad's Navajo, but I'm not really Navajo because I know very little about those ways and I don't practice those. So that was a one thing that was growing up was a little bit of an adjustment to it wasn't more so. Me and my thinking and understanding those more, trying to deflect I guess, people challenging who I am and what I know, more like more in that area. Anybody else? chime in to Aaron's question?
Aaron Brien :I hope I didn't offend you.
Jason Heavyrunner :No, that's a good point is really Good point. And given my my background and my lineage, I just have to pull in double time really, you know, to honor both my mother side, my father's side, and it's it's it's work, you know, there's Yeah, one is not better than the other, but it's what works. What works for the bedroom sailors works for them and works works for the Blackfeet works for the Blackfeet. And I participate in all sides and I take it upon myself to try to learn what's available, and also be our own research. And it helps being around people who are on the same path. And I think that's rare, but I also know that there are people who have multiple backgrounds but they only participate in one and kind of block and don't ignore The other, the other tribe, so, I always thought that an interesting dynamic but on purpose or by choice or just by nature though, yeah, that may be one of each, you know, by choice. Maybe they have feelings or a long history of something.
Kamiah Dumontier :you know, a different diverse background. So, yeah, yeah, so I haven't it's just work. It's just double work. That's all. Yeah. So Ivan Nez Perce name, and my mom gave it to me after like my dad's great or maybe great, great grandma. And I don't really know anything about that. my grandpa, so he used to get teased by bear head. Who Well, I mean, I guess we can edit this out, bear head used to call him a son of And so that was this weird thing like, how do you how do you connect to something that you have no knowledge of? So I mean, just kind of reacting to like, where you're at and and what your parents and other people are teaching you and telling you and that's kind of how I got there. And so with that whole enrollment thing, kind of like with what you're talking about shunting, like I wouldn't have enrolled, growing up. And I felt a little bit of weirdness about that. Like, it felt like it was a marginal kind of a thing and in a way, but then when I did get enrolled, the big takeaway was absolutely nothing changed.
Aaron Brien :drumroll
Shandin Pete :Where's my where's my feather?
Kamiah Dumontier :That's I've been enrolled, the blood quantum has changed like three times. And I'm like, Alright, Wow, really underscored the fact that this is meaningless.
Aaron Brien :So So wait a second, you're telling me that the enrollment system is not foolproof?
Unknown Speaker :Well, right Wait.
Jason Heavyrunner :Wait, can you imagine your point? You know, in my in my timeline where all my Blackfeet relatives always called me flat. All my flat relatives always called me Blackfeet. So you dig in and you're inward to know who you are, right? Yeah, but what can we I said also struck a memory that our enrollment was changed and we didn't know it. And what you don't know doesn't seem to really affect you. I don't know exactly how what age we're on enrolled Blackfeet and enrolled Salish But yeah, what's the difference? You know, if you are and you know who, what your what your experiences are, it kind of doesn't come into play. But yeah, it's interesting. It's an interesting question there. lots to talk about it is,
Marty Lopez :well, it is and I, for me, I kind of agree with what Jason was saying about, you kind of have to put in double work to kind of learn about one side and learn about the other side. For me, my dad is Chicano, and my mom is CRO, and my mom even has a little bit of Northern Cheyenne on on her dad's side, my grandpa and so I'm, I mainly grew up knowing that I was Chicano and knowing that I was crow. And I did put in the work, you know, I ate that green chili. I I you know, I learned some Spanish words. Tonight in high school,
Aaron Brien :he watched blood 13 times.
Marty Lopez :Maybe not I wasn't allowed to walk off. Exactly. But then and then you know I did the CRO work to I got the lemonade at crow. And I eat Indian tacos and there was a little bit of overlap there. But where it really all came together was when I ate my noodle. I could be Mexican I could be pro at the same time. You found you found it unites people that unites people I was, you know, I'm not even getting more detail on this. My dad always called himself Chicano because his family Didn't originate from Mexico. So why would we call ourselves Mexican but that's what everybody kind of knows that term better Mexico Mexican. But uh, so I'm Mexico. A lot of people use that term Mexico.
Unknown Speaker :Not Not a lot already. Seven
Unknown Speaker :family
Aaron Brien :family and then one family that owns a restaurant in crow
Marty Lopez :it's interesting though cuz my dad's doing he's been doing a lot of like genealogy work. Is that the right word? Yeah. Yeah, I just had to just say it is
Shandin Pete :the last anyways. redundant.
Marty Lopez :He's finding some like Pueblo answers. Sisters So, and Chicano, of course, you know that's mixed with native people. Yeah. So, um, anyways, and then me, I'm crow. But dealing with people when they hear me like, they wait for me to say my last name because you got to find out if you meet a CRO or a native person, they'll ask my last name, you know, to kind of, you know how it goes to place me and know where I come from or who I'm related to. And I say Lopez, then they're like, oh, but my mom's a piece and then they're like, okay, yeah. So you have to live witness that you have been with Marty, like, on a work trip or seven, and they'll say that they're like, oh, okay, okay. And then all of a sudden, it's a different. It's a whole different thing. a whole different vibe. Yeah. It's the American side of your identity. You know, I went and I ate the cheeseburgers and I ate the hotdogs. I learned that Tupac songs and the insync songs back then
Aaron Brien :think
Marty Lopez :well, I'm American, as
Aaron Brien :he's American as apple pie. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm as American is powdered eggs. Jason knows Jason knows powdered eggs, man. powdered eggs. Eggs and eggs and grape juice. Oh, that real thick. That thick stout grape juice. Oh, that's PC style their word.
Jason Heavyrunner :I just want you to guys, whoa, I lived in PC for years. So I know what I'm talking about. Yeah.
Shandin Pete :Watch out. So off the bat. Brenda or Sarah, do you want to weigh in on that question, or did we cover it?
Serra Hoagland :Huh? Go ahead Brenda or Yeah, I feel bad.
Brenda Shepard 2 :No I that's that's a very, very personal question for me. I don't quite know how to explain that without getting too too intense.
Unknown Speaker :But it's
Brenda Shepard 2 :Yeah, I just it's very intense. And I got to process that. So I don't offend any of my family.
Aaron Brien :Brenda, Brenda, that answer right there was almost answered enough. Because that that's what I'm wanting to know is like, is this something that's a legit thing for Mike is to be concerned about? Sarah, did you want to say something? Because I have Oh, yeah, the question.
Serra Hoagland :Well, I yeah, I don't think mine is as applicable as what we're talking here, because I'm just from one tribe, and then a mix of other things. So I don't quite have the same turmoil that we're kind of talking about here. So yeah, I'll just pass and let you ask your second part. Okay, so the second part actually might fit you
Aaron Brien :You better than from my observation and this is just pure no scientific research No. Anything is it seems that we now live in a time where it's almost harder to be to different tribes than to be half white. Because it almost seems like there's become a becomes a cultural competition at that point. Now with a non Indian side, I'm sure that has its own set of, of issues. And I'm totally admit I'm talking about stuff. I don't have any rights to talk about, but just from the appearance, it seems like it always it's like default, it defaults to the tribal side. In some cases, I'm sure there's cases out there that I'm unaware of where they, they don't want their Indian family to be Indian or whatever. But it just seems I'm curious to know is there a difference in the struggle of being half another channel versus being half non Indian.
Brenda Shepard 2 :I'm only one tribe, but I have quite a few friends that are from two separate tribes. And they conflict when it comes down to food as Marty was like talking about, like, there's, there's there's some things that you know she's half crow half kootenay there's some things that she can't eat because her crow family tells her not to, you know, and then when she comes up here to the Flathead, it's it's just very conflicting so that that is a real thing. You almost told her how just
Kamiah Dumontier :now? I did.
Unknown Speaker :She breaks all the rules.
Brenda Shepard 2 :Ian It is very convenient, though.
Shandin Pete :It seems like you know, proximity has a lot to do with it. Yeah, I think you know, like, in my case, you know, my relatives in my my heritage is quite a quite a few miles away. So there's no opportunity to interact and, you know, partake in that part, you know, I suppose I could have I really had a deep interest, you know, to Yeah, to develop that identity of mine. But you know it it's just like what you said you know what what is the practical approach that that kind of we are born with and that really just to embody what what is here, what is now and what what I can you know what was kind of taught to me because of that, but I know other folks you know, who, who might be you know, half crow half Blackfeet or half Salish, half Crow, Salish have Blackfeet you know, the proximity is very closest, it's, it's just a it's less than a day to get to these different places. So it's easy to partake in different parts of your tribal heritage. But then, then you have the people who are really concerned about authenticity and, and your intention and they might question Why are you watching
Aaron Brien :Are you even trying to do you know, the ceremonies with tribe x? When we need you committed to tribe wire right here, that even kind of happens here on on our Flathead reservation when people try to go to both Salish and Cooney jumped dances or whatever, yeah, that there's people there that really frown down upon that kind of thing. So, well, I appreciate you guys and China answer the questions or answering it because it it has always been something that's been kind of in my mind, like, how do people deal with this kind of stuff? For me growing up in crow what was the the dividing factors if you spoke Crow, you were you were criticized by people who could speak crow versus people who couldn't speak crow. And me being a non crow speaker. There definitely was a distinction growing up. And this is fascinating to me. Because it's a it's like a weird thing to be at divider.
Unknown Speaker :Yeah,
Shandin Pete :yeah, it takes a lot of energy for man to do a lot of energy to divide people and to put people down to judge people. Way more energy than it takes to unite people, I think.
Aaron Brien :Oh, yeah, man.
Shandin Pete :And, and I think, you know, this issue will come up as we progress along in this center, you know, people are gonna question and we're gonna we're gonna get some hard questions very similar to this. And, you know, I think that's a really good approaches, you know, we're not going to put energy into exclusion into division but really to unite to unite thoughts and ideas that are practical and that work for a wide range of tribal people and in tribal environments.
Unknown Speaker :Yeah.
Aaron Brien :I think I think what separates us from a lot of other other Institute's Or I guess, cohorts? Yes. We're not afraid to ask and answer these kinds of questions or tried to, you know, yeah. I just don't see a lot of native researchers really starting to get into these kinds of questions. And I could be wrong and hopefully I am wrong. And people are doing this kind of work and trying to solve these, these. I don't know what you call like, not philosophical questions, but, but that groups deal with, you know, the group is dealing with a certain type of thing and identity. Man, that's a powerful topic. When once you start opening that thing, it's, it can it can cause division. It can cause unity, like you're saying. So I think it's important though, that we really flesh out what's needless, and one of these things is like the enrollment system is a needless system. Yeah, it causes trouble. We're not racing horses, man. No, no,
Shandin Pete :we're not. We're not miniature schnauzers
Aaron Brien :I am pretty fast though.
Marty Lopez :Well, you know, I'm
Unknown Speaker :getting pretty fast, bro. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker :Katherine Gallagher. Yeah,
Aaron Brien :I want to tie my shoes real fast. And I'm real fast.
Marty Lopez :This is part one
Shandin Pete :of a two part series. So, you know, we're gonna continue this talk about identity next week with Jason if he's willing to join us again. So we can really round out this conversation and hit some of the important topics. But let's give Jason a chance to kind of close us out. Tell us some sage advice. Some was that Indian joke sage advice Some say that was a metaphor saved. Advice. I got the talking stick. So would you just
Jason Heavyrunner :advice and
Shandin Pete :let him let him close this out.
Jason Heavyrunner :Yeah, I just wanted to share Aaron, probably did this show noon probably did this. But during an old dance, the boys would sit around and throw $5 on a drum. First person to get asked gets the pop. You guys ever do that? Oh yeah, like Yeah, when you're sitting at the gym with the boys. Yeah, you sit around and it's kind of a byproduct. If you're single, but you're committed to the drum. And I'm sitting with Jason belcourt Cory wads are doing a bunch of name dropping and payment worst. Yeah and first first albans comes on you we all committed $5 in your wife can ask you your girlfriend. To kind of ask you, eyes forward, first person gets asked, gets the pot. first verse, second verse, whole song goes by, nobody gets asked. second song. First first, second song blows by, nobody got asked. Third song goes by, nobody gets asked or like god damn, are we the ugliest drummer here or what?
Shandin Pete :Everybody gets $5 back.
Jason Heavyrunner :But if you ask the same boys to tell them that same story, they're gonna say I want to tell the story to the second time now I'm gonna say yeah one
Aaron Brien :there's two types of singers Jason there's the guy who wants to get asked, and then there's always that one singer that goes and hides in the bathroom.
Jason Heavyrunner :No, I wanted to be asked. I know I never was asked.
Aaron Brien :He's usually the dude with nachos in his head. Yes, coffee stains on his shirt
Jason Heavyrunner :or yesterday's clothes? No, I wanna, I want to acknowledge you guys for all the good work that you guys do. And I also want to acknowledge that the good storytellers, the story keepers, the knowledge keepers, the stories that I was relating to you guys came from Nicole, every runner, Donovan Beauchamp, Thomas Knight gun, the things that you just pick up if you have a chance to ask somebody some questions more than likely they're willing to share you know, you just have to take that interest and it kind of gives you a well rounded picture. You know, for years. I was just going through the motions, so announcing announcing sing, then it dawned on me What's the epicenter of this? Where does this come from? What's this about? What's its meaning? And when you start asking questions like that there are a lot of good people out there willing to share. Dan are Aaron. and I both know, Dana Wilson. He's also a good knowledge keeper. Many people across the board, you know, there are a lot of deep wells, goldmines of information out there just be taken upon yourself and you can educate yourself and it gives you a full picture of just don't take dogma, just don't go out there and just do it. You know? Yeah, get some context of why you're doing it because it'll fill your spirits that much more, you know, and I felt very educated. I felt very blessed being around the singers that I've been around over the years there for the most part, we're all ceremony singers. So Pao was just always second fiddle. So yeah, the being around ceremonies singers, they really have a deep appreciation for what a song is. They understand the spirit of a song, whether it be a gold money or l dance or push dance. All of these songs. You know, if you're around people who are song connoisseurs, you know, they can really share spirit of a song and that translates to making other people feel good. And all they understand if you execute the song, well, it'll make people feel good. You know, that community maintenance of helping people be well, helping people heal, helping people maintain their irregular irregularity, you know, we're not always balanced. And that's why we're attracted to pose that's why we're attracted to groups of Indians because we know we're going to go laugh, we're going to go sing or you know, tap our toes, we're going to go out hell dance, and that's the that's the importance of these of these processes and why we do them. You know, it's is a community feeling shared a shared interest of touching base, getting caught up with news, you know, we don't see each other all the time. And now we'll dance a formal get together gives us an opportunity to get out and be amongst each other. So,
Shandin Pete :right on Jason, we'll close with that. Thank you guys. And then we'll see you guys all again next week. Thank you for joining us on this episode. And to learn more. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at IRC s Casey. You can find us also on Facebook in YouTube by searching s KC indigenous Research Center. You can also visit our website at IRC dot s kc.edu. Don't forget to join us next time as we continue our discussions on indigenous research indigenous research methodologies Indigenous worldviews