In the moment, that seems to be a pretty big, pretty big factor in the moment. So that's, uh, it makes me wonder, then, you know, our ultimate goal here is really trying to, we're trying to develop this research methodology. And we're trying to make the foundation be these really important and key parts of the worldview that we share that overlaps. So how do we, how do we capture that, that moment? Or that power? That comes with anything? How do we capture that in in this idea of the development of a research methodology? Or do we even need to welcome to podcast, IRC conversations with indigenous scholars to advance understandings and gain new knowledge hosted by the indigenous Research Center? At Salish Cooney college?
Serra Hoagland :Yeah, I was just thinking about, yeah, maybe relating to the point you're talking about with intent, like, I feel like, so much of today, what we're in is just about like survival mode and learning to adapt, and trying to piece together or recall those traditions that we have. But recognizing today that it's, it's hard to always give those the time and the honor that those respect or that those should have, I guess, if that makes sense. Mm hmm. I don't know. And going back to the point about, like, the love signs, things we're talking about, I mean, you just, there's like, all these crazy things today, like Tinder, or like, you know, snack and blankets and like, things, like, it's just so different, such a different world that we live in today. And I think it's just about, like balancing and, and trying to be adaptive in these times.
Shandin Pete :A good point to make is, you know, the, the understanding of, of, of the song is this, it's, it's not held singularly. And in fact, it could be an object. And it could also be a time when you sing, it could also be associated with an activity you do after or before. So really the power when somebody says, Well, what the power of the song, you know, they say, Oh, this song has no power. Maybe they're implying that, well, this person hasn't done these particular things, or this is what belongs with that you have to do this, with that song. Just being just being a human, you know, our lives are so short we, it's hard to for me, it's hard to imagine these, imagine the time in the past and how things may or may not have changed, because all I know is just these little pieces of information that seem very static. And I sometimes forget to, to, you know, attach the era in which these things have happened and how that may have been, you know, that event may have caused this thing to happen in this particular way. And who's to say that can't happen again today. And sometimes I can get stuck in that thinking. And I'm a big fan of bringing things back but I'm also a realist and think Yeah, well what how Do we do that today? And do we have to put a lot of effort into that? Or does it just happen? Naturally? That's kind of where I'm at.
Aaron Brien :It's this this the the tangible and the intangible and how people love each other. It's all very different idea among Native people. So that's why I say, yeah, it's one thing to say, Can these flute songs come back? Love medicines come back. But then what would we do with them? Now, we would have to completely replace the romantic idea of how we view relationships and all that stuff today. Right?
Shandin Pete :Right. Right. Yeah, it couldn't just come back and some ice isolation. It can, it can be on situated and how it used to be. Yeah.
Kamiah Dumontier :I mean, I, I understand what you guys are saying. And I, I agree with that completely. I wonder, though, like this idea about fixing things in time, that the songs are, I mean, yes, the songs came out of a context that doesn't exist anymore. So if we bring them back, more, we're taking them from that world into this one, and how all this stuff operates. But for anything to continue, that's what every generation always did. Because like, my generation isn't the same as my parents or my grandparents. And I don't think that it always was, we didn't have like, long periods of time that were just sort of static and unchangeable. Like, I don't know, I mean, maybe the thing is, what I'm thinking about with the song, and the flute, is that that's personal, like a person is attached to that. And so, if that song is going to continue, it doesn't stay with that person. It can't, it's going to go away. So for it to continue something changes.
Aaron Brien :I was gonna say, it seems that though the literature the existing literature on on the on research, I guess, as it relates to Indians, it seems as though is it comes from a place. And I brought this up a number of times of non participants. And I find that that the perspective of participants in, in what I mean is like in the culture that they're representing or whatever. And that can happen in various forms, right. But it seems though, that that the product is vastly different. And an example is, is like when john was here for the colloquium. He is not a researcher in the sense that we are, but some of us, but he is, like, how he was coming up with his conclusions. And especially in his efforts to learn different things is like, that's pretty intense research. In fact, it kind of really exposes us and like the amount of effort we put into research because he's going on years, years and years and years of, of one thing, like working towards the answer of one thing, so. And the outcome is different. How its interpreted is in different is different. But, and I know Shawn Dean, you've said this before, but the intent, his intent of the research was pretty different. So, and that seems to like never be like addressed or if it is, it's always like in the cliff notes, or it's always kind of like something cute to say, you know, it's not the focal point, I guess. There's something about effort, right? And courtship is really like effort, very much show. It's showing effort. And the amount of course and to me these old time like even like the dance like round, bustle style, chicken dance, crow style is all born out of the same thing of watching the sage grouse, you know, and that's what it was doing was was mimicking the times when the sage grouse was courting. And so like, it came down to like dancing, singing, composing songs. Not just singing but composing, and has a lot of effort, you know, but it was all born in this, like, in the same context it's born out. It's, it's from the same mold. And it's weird how like, Indians today like we we adopt, like, I mean we're like all over the place when it comes to that stuff.
Shandin Pete :So it's the stuff like what First of all, what are the things that we were trying to grasp onto? And the challenges, we have very little of that we don't we don't have not a lot of knowledge of those things. And then, so we're that's the struggle. And just like these love songs, like there's maybe a handful, more or less of, particularly these flute songs. So a person could grab on to that and learn those. But what's the point? Because they're, then they're not, then the purpose is not there anymore. Especially if it's a married guy trying to learn them while you're trying to learn love songs. You're married friend.
Kamiah Dumontier :And that's the thing. It's like, I almost feel feel like we need to make the place for these things first, before we try and bring them back. Like there's some separation, the place and space and the time
Serra Hoagland :that's adequate and is needed to do the right way. Even.
Shandin Pete :Yeah, it's like the it's like the argument. Well, I don't know if it's argument, but it's this. It's this debate about the Catholic hymns at funerals or wakes, you know, some young people or some people would say, No, we got it. We don't need that no more because it was this is a bad These are people treated us badly. We don't need those. Well, that's cool. And on. That's the respectful thing to an endeavor. But what are you going to replace it with? Because people are accustomed to that, especially our older people are accustomed to that way. So if we just throw it away, there's going to be a big void. And what's what's going to fill it now? Who knows? And that's, I think that gives some merit to what you're talking about, about? How do we make a platform for these things first, and then start filling in that platform with these appropriate things that we can pull in from the past? That really seemed to work? Well?
Serra Hoagland :Yeah. Can I share an example?
Shandin Pete :Yes. Can you
Serra Hoagland :guys hear this?
Unknown Speaker :guy's here?
Shandin Pete :Okay. Yeah, you got some birds going crazy. Oh,
Serra Hoagland :yeah. I'm playing a video that I took last week when Weaver and then it stops. Yeah. So I'm playing a video from my phone of the sound of the red winged blackbirds that were going crazy outside our house there. Um, so yeah, right now that song sitting in my office here in Missoula doesn't have a lot of power to it, because there's no female redwing blackbirds, anywhere nearby that that song is actually singing to
Unknown Speaker :that point,
Serra Hoagland :when I saw it, it's like, man, I mean, I was just like, overcome by listening to their voice in that flock, there was actually probably like a dozen of those male birds, and they actually migrate together and they come back to their breeding grounds, and they make those calls together. And then it's interesting that they just all stopped at once, like, kind of all in unison. So it was just powerful in that moment, and now kind of playing it you know, here it doesn't really have all that same context.
Aaron Brien :Yeah, it was like a more long tribes in the in the Rocky Mountains. Like I'm deciding idea of courtship through song is more prevalent, because it's really weird. Like, native men in the Rocky Mountains seem to only express themselves a lot of times, like deeply emotional, like stuff express themselves, like love, or exploits like through song other than that you don't really like it's not real common, I think to have like, sit down and talk about how you feel too much outside of like smoking with the paper, or maybe maybe like composing songs and stuff.
Shandin Pete :It's where we're at and everybody's there, you know, and we can't use knowledge as a tool to shame people. That's I think that's really important. So being honest about it. It's that's that's admirable, more admirable than the person that would lie and say, Oh, yeah, I know. I know. And not really No, I do
Aaron Brien :think it's important to address this idea of medicine. Right. And, and how these things are. And and in because of tribal people's commitment to today to Christendom, right. Yeah, is it's always seen seen as bad. But I think it's important that people need to understand that the way tribal people believe is that the creator gives us these advantages in life by giving, giving us the tools to be to access certain certain powers in the environment, right. And that's usually through fasting, are certain ceremonies and even the purchasing of spiritual power, are they gifting from another person? And, and anything that seen as success in life, whether it's war, exploits, hunting, not being alone, because I will say, if there's a thing that was ever made, that shouldn't be alone, it's Indian man, you know.
Shandin Pete :That's a dangerous thing.
Aaron Brien :There's some truth to that. And, and you can see it, or thouroughly with that, that was always sought after was a wife, you know, a partner. So if there's medicine to accompany someone and more, to accompany someone and hunting, to accompany someone in ceremonial life, why wouldn't there be medicine to accompany someone? in seeking a partner? Yeah. And why is that talk? Why is that seen as bad? Yeah. Well, because if you didn't equate it to the American Society of say, like, they'll say get established before you find a wife. Right? Well, in essence, that's what tribal people did when they'd say, don't be trying to get a wife and tell you get some Mojo, you know? Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, you're selling yourself a job? Well, those are all ways advantages of finding a partner. Right? Right. It's the same idea.
Shandin Pete :That's the thing. Where does that, as you say, that divinity? Where does that come in today? It's here. It's here. It's in small pockets, around rez and along in other communities. But it's not in academics. And I don't know if it belongs. What I'm hearing the song is important in the context in which it's used. Yes, of course.
Aaron Brien :Yeah, of course,
Shandin Pete :we can. Well, who wants to argue nobody in two in situ? Yes. So if we're saying that, you know what, when anybody says, oh, indigenous research methodologies is founded in the worldview of indigenous people. Well, by golly, songs are a huge part of an indigenous worldview. Agreed
Aaron Brien :in Yeah, in fact, yeah, in fact, you could probably argue it's the top it's in the top three song. song is, from the point of creation to now right song has been vital to the identity and the perpetuation of all things needed.
Shandin Pete :Thank you for joining us on this episode. And to learn more. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at IRC, sk see. You can find us also on Facebook and YouTube by searching skcc indigenous Research Center. You can also visit our website at IRC dot s Casey dot edu. Don't forget to join us next time as we continue our discussions on indigenous research, indigenous research methodologies and indigenous worldviews.