#28 - Inside Indian Country: A Discussion on Land Acknowledgments - Guest: Annie Ost & Salisha Old Bull

In this episode, the Tribal Research Specialist (TRS) team discuss the ever-expanding phenomenon of land acknowledgements. The episode starts with an Owl Dance Song from an unidentified reel in the TRS private collection. The song is discussed as possibly influenced from popular mainstream music. Additionally, in this episode we invited guests living and thriving in Indian Country from a range of professions and educational levels to discuss their views in land acknowledgements.
 
Return guest, Salisha Old Bull (Salish/Apsáalooke) is an Indigenous artist based in Montana, living on the Flathead Indian Reservation. She creates a diverse array of art genres but has an affinity to beadwork (salishaoldbullart.com). She is also the Student Success Coordinator for the Health Careers Opportunity Program at the University of Montana (UM). She's currently completing a Bachelor of Arts degree at UM. She's a former Native American Studies Instructor, with a BA in NAS, BA in Psychology, Masters of Interdisciplinary Studies and Masters of Public Administration.

New guest, Annie Ost (Spokane),  lives in Spokane, Washington just south of the Spokane Indian Reservation. Representing an urban Indian population, she currently works multiple jobs in Spokane where she has been raising a family.

The episode focuses on the recent explosion of land acknowledgment by academic institutions and organization. Consideration is given to the purpose and intent of these statements as interpreted by those living in Indian Country. The discussion seeks to understand the nature of these statements as a product of the work by past generations of Native activists and current efforts by Native communities. This is contrasted by the view of the every-day Native living and working in their communities.

In the the last half, the discussion shifts to recommendation on how to provide a form of land acknowledgment that is in alignment with the thoughts and perceptions of the guest and TRS team. The discussion centers on a form of acknowledgment that is less formal and orated; one that is natural and offers evidence of a Tribes cultural ties to the land throughout the intended talk or presentation.

Join the discussion and  let us know your thoughts.

Learn More about our guests:
salishaoldbullart.com

Guest: Annie Ost (Spokane) & Salisha Old Bull (Salish/Apsáalooke)
Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)

PodCast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tribal-research-specialist-the-podcast/id1512551396
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/1H5Y1pWYI8N6SYZAaawwxb
Twitter: @tribalresearchspecialist
Facebook: www.facebook.com/TribalResearchSpecialist
YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UCL9HR4B2ubGK_aaQKEt179Q
Website: www.tribalresearchspecialist.com

Transcript

Shandin Pete: 0:36

You're now tuned in to this week's episode of Tribal Research Specialist, the podcast, a podcast about tribal people, our communities and discussions on reclaiming our research traditions, we aim to uncover the true meaning of research methodological approaches that are currently operating in tribal life with implications for tribal communities, and avenues for knowledge production. We would also like to thank our patrons, Ryan, Mars, Xena, Brian, Rachel, Emma, and Travis, thank you for your contributions to the show. And if you haven't contributed, or if you're an avid listener, please think about rating our show in your favorite podcast app. And thank you for tuning in. So Aaron, what do you think that song sounds like? What does that sound like to you?

Aaron Brien: 2:09

Well, it's definitely a 49. Soon song, but it's a Christmas song, isn't it?

Shandin Pete: 2:14

I don't know.

Aaron Brien: 2:15

Does it sound like Christmas carol?

Shandin Pete: 2:24

Yeah, which Christmas carol? referring to? Play again. Okay. Okay, I'll play just let's all play the end. Yeah, just like the beginning.

Aaron Brien: 2:36

Just play the chorus.

Shandin Pete: 2:38

There you go. Give it a listen. I can hear what's Christmas, Carol. Listen to it. Which Christmas carol? We can do. The second version?

Aaron Brien: 3:16

Oh, it's not a Christmas Carol. It's

Shandin Pete: 3:22

it's a what?

Aaron Brien: 3:25

What is it? Like? What are you doing? But

Shandin Pete: 3:28

I know very little again, this is this is from this collection. And there's there's a gal who comes on about three or four songs in and says, says that these are our old dance songs.

Aaron Brien: 3:43

I could tell you right now. God, that song was recorded in the 50s in the early 50s.

Shandin Pete: 3:53

I don't know

Aaron Brien: 3:54

what. For one. That's when our dances were like.

Shandin Pete: 3:58

Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. It blew up. And then,

Aaron Brien: 4:04

but that song has a very poppy tone to it. Yeah, so that probably means that composer was listening to the radio.

Shandin Pete: 4:13

Yeah. Some some Hank Williams or?

Aaron Brien: 4:19

Yeah, yeah. No, you start seeing that young structure and like the way today? The the tone or the melody of dev? Yes, I would that that was our dance song.

Shandin Pete: 4:33

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, um, I mean, it's hard to know for sure. But that's what the person says. And, you know, I think what's important about everything that you said there is really acknowledging, acknowledging the influence of these tunes, because I don't, you know, I don't you know, indigenous folks, native folks, tribal folks, whatever you want to call them. We're influenced by the things that we are surrounded by just just by default. We just can't like you said listen to the radio. And you got a good old Hank Williams tune or or whatever Keith Whitley and many get inspired to make make some tune about that with the you know what I mean? Yes, Dorney Park is a good example of that, you know, they they

Aaron Brien: 5:27

you put Keith Whitley and Hank Williams and

Shandin Pete: 5:33

senate expand a generation of country songs, which got against Keith Whitley partner.

Aaron Brien: 5:42

Everything. Ah, no, I'm just kidding. Harsh.

Shandin Pete: 5:46

No, okay. So, okay. So this brings up what what are you gonna say?

Aaron Brien: 5:51

I mean,

Shandin Pete: 5:54

because I have a follow up. Okay. Okay. Okay. You had some, but you hesitated.

Aaron Brien: 5:59

No, I didn't have anything. I was just interrupting us What?

Shandin Pete: 6:03

Oh, right. Right. Right. Right. Okay. So acknowledging the influences and or acknowledging the historical background of anything is kind of important, right? Like, you'd want to be acknowledged for, say, where you come from? I don't know, would you? Or would you rather be anonymous?

Aaron Brien: 6:28

I said, Yeah, just know. Like, yeah. But the truth is, is no, most of the time now.

Shandin Pete: 6:36

Yeah, you just want us you just want to be rogue go rogue, fly under the radar.

Aaron Brien: 6:41

kaylynn Sarah Palin

Shandin Pete: 6:43

going rogue? Well, okay. So there's, there's this emerging trend. And you know, what I'm talking about, because I said acknowledgement. There's this emerging trend in institutions, and or organizations that are, that are developing these formal recognitions of, for lack of better word, traditional custodians, or custodial relationships between local native people, and the land in which they are residing. Now, this trend is not limited to spoken word. This trend is also infiltrating into academic text. It's infiltrating into performative expressions such as art and poetry. I mean, anywhere you go, you you may you may hear a land acknowledgement. Would you say that's partially true or fully true?

Aaron Brien: 7:55

Yeah, I only hear that. I only hear it when it's Indians talking to Indians. Like if we go to like a BLM, like a BLM meeting, or like, they don't start like nailing style. It's just Indians. Right? We're, we're a wacky bunch, you know,

Shandin Pete: 8:16

in a way, Hey, you know what, you know, there's even even hockey teams in Canada are starting to start their games or their matches. What are the hockey game called a match a game? What is it called? Starting there, their competition? A match? I think it's a match, starting their match. starting their contest

Aaron Brien: 8:40

their contests ago, there was a versus if you're under the age of 12. Versus it's versus starting there versus or just a V? Dad, you want a one v one, me?

Shandin Pete: 8:53

You want to come at me?

Aaron Brien: 8:57

Well, one v one.

Shandin Pete: 9:01

So the land acknowledgement, yeah. You know, I think there's a lot of discussion about this. And I think a lot of it. A lot of it is I don't know if you'd say controversial, but because it is Indians talking to Indians about it. We always fight about some always are battling. Always may be unhappy with want revisions to want to be included in

Aaron Brien: 9:34

we're doing it right now.

Shandin Pete: 9:37

Yeah, yeah, we're doing we're doing it now. So we brought, we brought We have with us a couple of guests who are impassioned. You could say inflamed. Can you can you be inflamed by a topic? I think that's more of a medical condition right? Let's Let's not talk about inflammation who are inflamed by? Or I don't know. Let's hear it. This emerging trend, what some of the issues, what are some of the issues? So we've got Felicia and her pal whose birthday it is. Annie. What are the issues?

Annie Ost: 10:26

Start off my first time here with my own land acknowledgement. The picture located wanted to be super cool with my bag. I want to acknowledge have an acknowledgement of this is the land where I come from. Out of Where's that? Yeah, where's there, Spokane and the Columbia River meet. Oh, so you're acknowledging the engineers who built that bridge? On the picture. Just beyond that bridge is fort Spokane. And this side of the bridge is like the spoken word. This unspoken reservation starts. Yeah. And that's where I'm from. Cool. Literally. They're literally

Shandin Pete: 11:28

literally at the bridge. I've resided under the bridge.

Aaron Brien: 11:37

Literally, actually. But more like, figuratively. send that to me. Actually. I said, I came from a time where the word literally meant literally. Not figuratively. Like, actually And literally, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 12:01

together.

Unknown: 12:04

So what is this? So?

Shandin Pete: 12:09

So what is it? What is it? I mean? What do you what is your feel? Aaron solutia. Annie about this emerging trend of the land acknowledgement. Now Aaron said it's more of an Indian v. Indian thing. And I don't know if I necessarily agree. But

Aaron Brien: 12:26

I would say this. I would say that. It It doesn't seem to really come from like traditional people. It comes from like, the a lot of popular native culture is designed and developed by people on the fringes. It's never like people in the trenches, right? Yeah. Okay, so it just doesn't it? I've always felt kind of uncomfortable with land acknowledgments. Right. Like, there's just something in me that's like saying, like, this is weird. Like, why are we doing this? And?

Shandin Pete: 13:04

Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 13:05

I mean, I don't know. Right? I don't know. I'm uneasy feeling with it.

Salisha Old Bull: 13:12

It's weird in the sense that you, it's like, I feel like I missed that part. And but by the time I got to know it, then all of a sudden, it skipped ahead to what about me? What about everybody else? What about all the other tribes?

Aaron Brien: 13:32

Where does it stop? Yeah.

Salisha Old Bull: 13:34

I'm like, wait, I like didn't even get to hear the first acknowledgement. And I'm already have to defend myself.

Shandin Pete: 13:46

Wait, now what do you mean? I mean, so so it's it gets read too fast? Or? Or do you mean there's no like, like, what

Salisha Old Bull: 13:56

am I saying? It's like, it's like, I don't know. I felt like it was new to me. And then, before I even had a chance to sort of soak it in. I was already getting like somebody from another tribe saying, but what about my tribe? We were here to and I was like, why I just now first heard this in my life. Right? Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 14:25

He before the thing is even over you, you're like, you can't even absorb it and you don't even know it's so it's new. And you're like, wait, when did they When did we start doing this? thing? No, like, what? People are attacking you? None. It's like, What do I do? You know? Yeah, let's start fighting battles. fighting battles, guys.

Annie Ost: 14:51

There's, I guess there's that you can go on, and it'll tell you. I haven't seen it, but like, it'll tell you who's laughing You're on.

Shandin Pete: 15:01

Oh, yeah, I've seen

Aaron Brien: 15:02

this. You text a number, right? Like that thing? Is it called Zillow?

Shandin Pete: 15:13

maxeon fi land 10 acre lot with water and power.

Aaron Brien: 15:20

But it's only secretarial water.

Shandin Pete: 15:22

Oh, yeah.

Aaron Brien: 15:25

I think that was developed by lightful. Great.

Shandin Pete: 15:29

I'm not sure. But I think one of the criticisms of that app that I know of is that it's it's built off of or partially constructed from treaty, treaty derived boundaries. At least that's what I've heard. So they're not necessarily capturing Aboriginal territories. And you see that a lot with like, some of the information produced, like for Indian Education for All or whatever they call it in other states where they get a map. And they say, Okay, this is these are the Aboriginal territories, but actually, they're treaty derived territories and boundaries.

Aaron Brien: 16:08

So this brings up a good question. Yeah. What is in Indian country? Like, of course, we're telling tales out of school here. secret information. It's like, do you ask that tribe where they're from? Because they're gonna claim everything?

Salisha Old Bull: 16:25

Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you see that? All the way. And all the way to the North Pole. And then, and then.

Aaron Brien: 16:40

So like, so how about this? What if? What if you ask the crow Indian where his Aboriginal land is? I mean, Damn, it's gonna get out of hand. But what if I go to 30 different tribes and say, Where? Where do you know of the crow to be? Yeah, and that's gonna paint a very different picture, man.

Shandin Pete: 17:00

It is. It is. For sure.

Aaron Brien: 17:03

So like, like, whose definition I would going on? And really what it comes down to is it burns 15 minutes before the meeting starts. Try a half hour.

Annie Ost: 17:15

Should this take? And should this be in lieu of a prayer? Oh, no, we didn't even

Shandin Pete: 17:24

do the prayer. So that's another 15. So we're talking and then 45 I'm only got 15 minutes left to talk about the issue.

Aaron Brien: 17:34

And, and when did when did Indian prayer become just getting in trouble? ever noticed? It feels like when people pray in public or like they pray for like, we're gonna pray for this. It just feels like a guy's talking to you. He's just getting mad about nobody. This is weird. So then we gotta go through this the public scolding. And then we got to go through the kind of woke white guy that comes up and talks about like, how good their relationships are. And then before that comes up this lady. I've noticed they've been coming up and they always send a lady if you noticed that online acknowledged. Like an official, like a folder. It's like an official like, like an executive ordered thing.

Shandin Pete: 18:28

Yeah, leather bound by him. Oh, yeah. siren.

Aaron Brien: 18:33

Yes. She's the muse. She's

Shandin Pete: 18:35

the Oracle. Okay, okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay, biblical.

Aaron Brien: 18:39

Is this like, it's this rehearse? Like, it's just rehearse.

Shandin Pete: 18:45

Wow. Well, yeah, I get it, I get it. So the issue then is a couple things so far. It's who who is recognizing who within the land acknowledgement This is becoming the new intertribal warfare is gets your tribe in the land acknowledgement by x institution because of whatever reason, if it's not well, then I'm going to be upset by that. And the other issue, I guess, would also be I, how meaningful is it? And what is its purpose? I mean, I I see the I see some I see the work of many generations before me to be acknowledged, or to, I don't know, to be acknowledged, but to for someone to say, hey, oh, yeah, we did some. We kind of did some bad things. And this is the start. And I don't know how you feel about that or not anybody feels about that. But it's it's work towards something. And I don't know.

Aaron Brien: 19:47

I don't know. Is it though?

Shandin Pete: 19:48

I don't know. That's what I want to know. Is it? Is it? I think it's, I think it's like what? Well, I think Yeah, Joe is You said Jagga intentions,

Salisha Old Bull: 20:02

um, when you get? Well, what I see from it is, I never heard it until like, probably about two years ago. And I think it's not something to personalize because it's somebody who has somehow managed to get a little bit of education under their belt without getting a Native American Studies degree. So they don't know anything, and they're not going to go get a native studies degree. But they want to know, and trying to have humility, and so they're trying to show their own humility. And that they mean, well, and they're open minded, and I see that, but I think it sort of gets taken out of context, because you have different generations, you know, old to young. And I felt like maybe in sort of, sort of in the middle, like, I think that it's a good intention. And I think that it's worth acknowledging their effort. I mean, I don't know how much it's worse. But I think just the fact that that's even being said, it's, it's good in the sense that, like, where you tend to hear, I feel like it's like a mass like an urban setting. And you would never really hear that too much being on the rez at home, because these days, when you drive where I live, and then you drive to town, there's a big old sign that advertises for tribal tyranny, a book on tribal tyranny. It's like right around here, that they're not gonna acknowledge anything like that. And so I think it's a fight. We're finally seeing, like, as a group of non Indians, they're trying to say something, but they're not really quite sure how to do it, I guess.

Shandin Pete: 22:10

Sure. Sure. Sure. Well, yeah, I see that, like, I see that Well,

Annie Ost: 22:16

well, well intended. Well intended. And I think like when you think of it, like from there, like, they don't know what else, like to them, they're doing like this good deed. Like to them, they're, they're doing something they feel like a big person for acknowledging this and saying this. And I think for a lot of Native people like for, like, I think it's almost like a, like arrogance, you could almost take it like arrogantly because it's like, oh, you're just gonna acknowledge that, like, you know, that Oh, yeah. Well, this was, this is Indian Territory. This is, you know, indigenous land, but we're on it now. So it's like, you can take that kind of light. Take it? Yeah. I mean, I would have met, like, I think a lot of people do. And a lot of like, a lot of times because it's like, if you're on if you you have this like minds, like your mind. It kind of goes there. Because it's like a, like, we're like, I think that we're used to that, like, acknowledging something is like to honor it in a way. So like, that's not honoring to just say that. Yeah, this used to be your land, but now we're on it. And we're, this is what we were doing now.

Shandin Pete: 23:41

Yeah. So this is where you used to be. And we want to acknowledge that. But now you're also up there under so that's cool. It's

Aaron Brien: 23:49

simply it simply comes down to like, does land acknowledgments feed in new people? That doesn't do anything? That

Shandin Pete: 23:57

was gonna be my next question. Who is it really for? I mean, is it is it for, for the institution to say we're sorry, or we want to recognize this land that? I don't know You could put anything after that that was stolen, gifted treaty? seeded, I don't know what you want to say. But what does it do for the I guess, if it was on if it was in an institution, what does it do for the Native students sitting there listening to their university president to say this was your land or this is your Aboriginal territory? What does that do? I don't know. I mean, we're I think we're bailing. It

Aaron Brien: 24:35

does much to be honest.

Shandin Pete: 24:37

Yeah. I mean, we're, I don't ever remember it land acknowledgement when I was in school as an undergraduate, or as a graduate. Or

Aaron Brien: 24:45

how did that make you feel?

Shandin Pete: 24:47

No, I don't remember.

Aaron Brien: 24:48

Oh, how's that make you? How's it make you feel right now that knowing that it wasn't, I mean, I wasn't there. I don't I don't feel no way. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want you to sugarcoat it. Just tell me how you If you

Shandin Pete: 25:01

feel nothing, I feel nothing.

Aaron Brien: 25:03

You know, we're not going to ever progress if you don't, if you don't be honest, if you don't come out and tell us how you really feel we're never gonna grow.

Shandin Pete: 25:11

I am fine with it. I made it. I

Aaron Brien: 25:15

survived it and see that's the problem. And there's a problem. Okay.

Shandin Pete: 25:22

This guy is on it. What is Are you

Salisha Old Bull: 25:25

mad? Are you mad about land acknowledgement? coming off of a dry drunk or under like he's dry drunk and all that? Did we go on? The land it

Shandin Pete: 25:42

in somehow? No, no, no, no. Okay. I'm sorry. I just want to know, I want to know this. You know, there's, I'm sure there's many different opinions about it. Maybe. But we're where we're trying to get the opinion of the folks who are in the, like Aaron said in the trenches. We don't frequent, I suppose mainstream institutions. We don't frequent conference trails for the most part. And

Aaron Brien: 26:14

I don't know what we're seeing here. Have you ever seen your own tribe do Atlanta acknowledgments? That's what

Shandin Pete: 26:20

I was wondering. Do tribal colleges to do land acknowledgments?

Salisha Old Bull: 26:25

That's right. No, that's well, this is this is the thing is like they're referenced somebody in the tribe to get the land acknowledgement statement there. But to me, it's like, some sort of, it's confusing, I guess. It's like a yo yoing. Because what I see is, there's like a large group of people that fought, they fought for something they fought to, they fought for some sort of recognition. And they're now that there's some sort of progress on whatever it was that they were doing, because we're not really aware of it. Because a lot of times it will happen in that like academic setting, or like, in the political setting where everybody's not there, and you're not even really sure what they were trying to do. Because they don't tell you until after it's already been published, or after the law has been passed. And then they try to inform everybody, okay, everybody, we won, we won, we got this figured out, or we talked about this. And so then by the time it gets to you, it's like, Okay, what did we win? Like, what is? And so I'm just seeing, like, there's like these different different groups that are fighting for some sort of social justice, and then they want it. But it's hard to understand what the, what happens after that, like, because then yeah, it turns out like afterward, after word when when they got it accomplished, it turns out that even though they wanted that David even really consult in what we're referring to as people in the trenches, they didn't really consult in their own people to even really know how that was going to come off as and so now you, I think people are taking it just a lot of different ways. And I just get confused. I'm like, Yeah, I guess. I mean, I didn't need to be acknowledged, I already knew this is where we came from. And like, I would have told you that myself, like, I don't, yeah, it's okay. But yeah, I think before I

Annie Ost: 28:42

go forward with, right, like, I think that instead of like, instead of being angry about it, or instead of taking that approach to it, like how can we help these people do something with it? Because I think of like, I remember, we were talking one time cilicia about the government making an acknowledgement. Because when they do that, then that means they have to do something about it. So that's in government terms or whatever, like or, or more political terms, but it's like, if you think of it in that sense, it's like, oh, well, that's the first step. That's that is a step for them. And so, so if you if you try to take a more like positive, look at it, like okay, well, they're making this step. Let's help them make that next step forward. Like how can we do that? And what do we want from that? Like, how can we help them understand that it's nice that you want to do this land acknowledgement, but this is how it really makes some people feel because this land, you know, if you want to make, you know, real land acknowledgments, it's like, like you're like shining, we're saying about like battles like really, like let's talk about the battles that happened here in the blood that spilled here in like Man, I mean, if and that's just our territory. I mean, if you look at like the United States as a whole, like, it's not just indigenous blood that is been spilled on the land, you know, like, there's,

Salisha Old Bull: 30:14

it reminds me of one of those word problems on the on your math, you know where they give you like all these these pieces of information and you have to sit down and figure out what's missing.

Shandin Pete: 30:23

Yeah, the giraffe. Giraffe can be housed by the lions. There's only enough food to feed six monkeys. The train is going at 16 miles per hour. And there's a track outage in Milwaukee. Who do you feed first? The lion?

Aaron Brien: 30:44

What's the North Eastern with the norwayne? coming?

Shandin Pete: 30:51

Okay, yeah, man. Okay, um, this is this is complicated. It's like, it's like if you if you get upset because your favorite store doesn't carry, say organic plant based hamburgers. And so you complain to the manager, say I want organic plant based hamburgers. So they get organic plant based hamburgers. You proceed to buy the organic plant based hamburgers, bring them home, cook them up. And you say these are terrible. These are terrible, terrible burgers. Who in the heck? Why would anybody buy these? So you're getting something that you wanted? Or maybe someone in your community wanted? But then it's not exactly what you had intended. And there there is, there is some some native folks and native scholars saying Yeah, land acknowledgement is not enough. What's the action behind it? And it seems like it's this this really rushed, rushed movement. I get it. It's good. I mean, it that's really one of the first questions I asked some folks who are seeking some guidance on how to connect with Native students, native faculty, etc. as well understand who the people are around you in the land that that you're on. Not necessarily that you need to acknowledge that but you need to make a personal commitment to understand the history of the people that live on that land. You don't necessarily need to make a dog and pony show out of it. To go before the the campus and make a proclamation of acknowledgement ponies are so fun. Maybe you should

Aaron Brien: 32:36

only show

Shandin Pete: 32:38

dog and pony. So that's that's how I see it is like the effort is I think it's well meaning but maybe it's misplaced. It's the organic plant based hamburger down in Wilson's food that nobody really wants to buy anymore. Because they found out they didn't really like that much.

Aaron Brien: 32:57

I don't know, the impossible burger. Well, I'm gonna be completely honest with the shining, I have no clue what the hell you're talking about. The plant based

Shandin Pete: 33:05

burger head, I just kind of get out of the old brain cave there.

Aaron Brien: 33:09

Are we having planned burgers are not

Annie Ost: 33:14

bad if you go back to like, like, say even like 50 years ago, like how many? How many people that like you said, What is asked for, like, how many people said how many times was it ever said like we just want to be acknowledged? Right? Yeah, we just want to be we just want to, we just want you to because that's why you always hear like we're still here. We're still here. Like, that's what you see in all the videos and yeah, documentaries, and it's always like

Aaron Brien: 33:45

I guess that's that's always been my problem is there's this idea that I think there's an entire population of Indian people that could care less what non Indian people think. Yeah, and, and I'm not I don't even know necessarily where I stand but I don't need them to acknowledge me. I don't need them to just extend those pleasantries to me I'm completely okay with the with the kind of a business mindset I guess going into it, which if that fosters into something else. Yeah, I think that's that's fine but for the moment like we're not gonna eat dinner together, you know, like, let's let's get in there get what we have to do done be as productive as possible. And I the problem I have with a lot of this stuff, it's not just land acknowledgement. It's like even Indian people we do it where we're like, let's see, can someone come and sing an honor song like that drives me crazy, man. Yeah, you know, and like our, our like, our how the sing the canonization of like ribbon skirts, and Yeah, all of this stuff where it's all just trendy. So I'm having a hard time saying All right, I'm cool with land acknowledgments but part of me saying but are they even going to be around in three years? You know?

Salisha Old Bull: 35:16

I'll be around if we put it in the applique on to a ribbon scrape.

Aaron Brien: 35:21

Yeah, I can I'm gonna we're gonna see some diehard we're gonna see some diehard he's gonna have a tattoo, but he's gonna have a tattoo some land acknowledgement.

Annie Ost: 35:32

I'm currently ordering earrings. I'm ordering earrings, that land acknowledgement on the earring.

Aaron Brien: 35:40

Just kidding. ABOUT THE EARRINGS, BECAUSE I think

Annie Ost: 35:51

you just, I think it just started. I think it's gonna go it's gonna go on, but he is meeting them right now, right now. Most non colonial I'm not against so anti colonial,

Aaron Brien: 36:08

just so decolonize colonize there cathartic? I'll try and just oh,

Shandin Pete: 36:19

what was he gonna say? even know, I don't even know. Well, this is what I got. This is what I got. It reminded me of something. And so you know, what I what I would hate to do is discredit the work that might that say my, my mom's generation did to, to be recognized, like Annie was saying, you know, we just want we're here. The we I don't I don't necessarily know, I don't I don't ascribe to this deal that we want to be put on a pedestal or we want to be we want to be recognized as something other than human. You know, we're just we're just people we're trying to get by we're trying to we have our own internal issues that I think are far more important than spending six meetings, Jenna craft the land acknowledgement. I mean, for crying out loud, you know, there's, there's other things other important, man, but that's that's internal. That's reservation stuff. That's, that's tribal things, you know, things started the

Aaron Brien: 37:25

land acknowledgments

Shandin Pete: 37:26

that, you know, I'm curious.

Aaron Brien: 37:32

I'd like to acknowledge, I'd like to acknowledge I'm losing my voice. You're never normally I normally don't sound this radio voysey with baritone usually squeaky and loud and high pitched.

Shandin Pete: 37:53

So this is apparently apparently the land acknowledgement movement started or I guess was was pretty prominent in, in some former British colonies. So it actually started external to this continent. So as you can imagine, Australia, New Zealand, I would imagine maybe South Africa. Yeah.

Annie Ost: 38:20

And it was an actual, like, action. Like it was like they did something about it wasn't just an acknowledgement. It was like a

Shandin Pete: 38:27

call to action of some shirt.

Annie Ost: 38:30

Like, I think the government actually, it was some I don't know.

Salisha Old Bull: 38:34

I believe it. We won. Just kidding. We want next. Yeah. Double burger.

Aaron Brien: 38:46

I said all of that. But I want people to I want listeners to know, like, I'm not trying to be crotchety. I'm just saying. Like, it seems like there's a lot of pleasure, every, like a lot of dedication to this subject into this thing. And it's like it is, let's just start the meeting. You know, you ever you ever you ever see like an old indian dude, or like an old indian lady. And then like this, there's always a white guy that kind of hangs around the reservation. And then he sees these old folks and then he'll go and try to greet them, and in their language, and then they kind of like they, they like think it's cool, but they kind of giggle to you know, like a walk up and you know, he's all excited because he learned a new word or something or learned and he come runs up and he greets him and they're like, yeah, and then they kind of answer him and that's to me like what land acknowledgement feels. It feels like that attempt to like say a word, but it's kind of context is messed up. And yeah, accents, kind of weird, but I mean, it's like, well, I mean, he's trying but how But does he need to, or just just calling to say hi shake your hand. Yeah. To me. That's what kind of that same feeling. Yeah, that awkwardness is the same feeling I get with landing knowledge. I'm not against

Annie Ost: 40:11

them. They're all staring. They're all it gives it. It's like the perfect time for all the non indigenous people to stare at the

Aaron Brien: 40:18

dough. I know. Exactly.

Unknown: 40:23

I was like,

Aaron Brien: 40:24

like, they look for a person, and I shake your head. Or they'll put their hand on their heart after Oh, no.

Salisha Old Bull: 40:35

I feel like we could. This I don't know, I think I just keep thinking about like, this whole idea of bringing it back, you know, honing it in, you know, and

Aaron Brien: 40:49

yeah, reeling it in Polish,

Salisha Old Bull: 40:52

I place names or place names, like not doing a land acknowledgement, but just remembering that, you know, we have a place name, and that's all you if you know that there's place names for these, then you know, your people know this place. Right? That's actually

Annie Ost: 41:07

a way, way better acknowledgement of like, acknowledging an actual

Aaron Brien: 41:13

you the actual name of this is a cooler, I think it's cooler to like. Yeah, like you're just seeing that or really hard. Just go ahead. Sorry,

Salisha Old Bull: 41:24

we were on that. We were out. We were there for a hot minute, and then all of a sudden, we're not there. But I don't know how to get back to that.

Aaron Brien: 41:34

Boy in Indian Country, so she academics, once academics, grabs it. It's gone, man, it's gone. It's just like baloney, you know?

Shandin Pete: 41:44

Yeah. You know, that's important. One is not acknowledging a race of people, but acknowledging the existence of events. And occurrences on that land, like you said, is pretty important. I mean, I remember remarking at some, I don't know what it was a talk of some sort. But remarking on a rock that was on campus at the University of Montana saying, Oh, yeah, that Rockies was a marker for foot race. I mean, that's, that's acknowledging something that's pretty important. A small piece of history. I don't have to go into this long, long diatribe about every tribe that had pets through the Missoula Valley.

Aaron Brien: 42:25

It's a lot more tactful to.

Shandin Pete: 42:27

Yeah, yeah. And it don't have to occur it there's a tag on this. Yeah. It's sprinkled throughout and sprinkled throughout. It's like It's like an academic talk or enhancer. The academic talk enhancer

Aaron Brien: 42:45

it's like, it's like, it's like replacing Times New Roman. It's just good.

Shandin Pete: 42:51

Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 42:53

Who even uses Times New Roman? I mean, it's like do cash. What's that one? Cambria. Cambria

Shandin Pete: 43:06

can Oh, geological era yo cash.

Aaron Brien: 43:11

Yeah, geo cash. geocache is like storage things in the sky. geocache like

Shandin Pete: 43:22

put some geocache in your in your in your academic talk or your your I don't know. Unless, okay.

Aaron Brien: 43:31

Let's talk about fonts but I know Yeah. Okay. Let's Let's listen to this next song. Cambria. Cambria New Times Roman came up oh

Shandin Pete: 43:41

you're talking Are you talking about the like the inside of a tree? That's cambium that's I thought you're talking about a geological area area. Here with that.

Aaron Brien: 43:53

Area Oh aerials in the sky,

Shandin Pete: 45:45

So that's um again another round dance I mean I'm sorry I will dance song that we're not sure it's origin dance.

Aaron Brien: 45:54

Yeah these songs are kind of a genre unto itself even different from round and singing are like yeah, push then singing or Yeah, I will then songs or I think under appreciated because there's there was a recording that came out I think in maybe about 10 or 15 years ago now maybe longer yeah and it's called our den songs of the Blackfoot people. Oh really? Yeah and it's like Herman yellowed woman and I'm in duck Jeep and like, there's about seven dudes, but the entire recording to me is like, top five recordings for Indian music, you know, it's just, it's just a killer recording. It's just like, then every every song and you don't, you don't ever stop to really appreciate our dance singing. And yeah, and the, our dance rhythm is different than like, around dance song or 49 song. The cadence of around dance song is like running. It's continuous. So the verses just seem to be like, seamless were like, around that song. It like ends, you know, like, you know, the ends come in, boom, it drops and then the leads usually dynamic, where like all dancing, it's not. It's not our dance singers in the way to songs are composed, aren't powered by the lead.

Shandin Pete: 47:23

Hmm.

Aaron Brien: 47:24

You know what I ground and singing has become this war for the last 30 years. 40 years has become lead driven. So the leads got to sound good. It's got to show off your voice. It's got to show off the song. But like our dancing in the verse is like, the verse is Yeah, it's gotta flow. It's got to run man and yeah, it's it's killer.

Shandin Pete: 47:47

It is it is. I just was remembering when you're talking about that. I remember Pat Kennedy he had this drum. And he his one side he said this is this is my round dance side. And then the other side, that's my old dance side. That two different sounds, you know. And so he even recognized that there was a two different tones when he was gonna sing either around dance or owl dance.

Aaron Brien: 48:15

I would agree. I think the owl dance tone of singing like they typically do when they have these out dances. That's kind of a ping, err sounded like that hollow drum sound that I heard a guy say my drum has a lot of bottom to it. So that's kind of talking about like the bass part of it. But our dead singing was more driven by like the tone of a higher pitch drum. And let the verse ride right so the verse takes the song, and it rides or like, like I was saying, like around that song is it's more like on the attack of the drum. So it's that you're hitting the drum. Yes, song is determined by the lead. The lead sets up the song where the lead for now proud dancing is not that way at all.

Shandin Pete: 49:04

That's right. I think you're right,

Aaron Brien: 49:07

man. I love that.

Shandin Pete: 49:09

That is cool stuff, man. You know, and there's I think there's a lot and a lot of details that I think other folks know that we don't you know, I always wondered I always wondered and I never did inquire too deeply about it. But you know that that the Canadian style of round dance with the with the with the triple beat with where one's the buzz, you know, I always wondered what what Where did that come from? What is the what is the drum drum, Sophia, and

Aaron Brien: 49:40

if you ever if you ever listened to those Denae up north? Yeah, and they their hand game songs they like to do to do and they use the back of their hand to mute the drum. And so, oh, one time I was singing push down songs. Yeah, a bunch of guys in CRO and the guy would mute, one of the singers would mute and older guy would meet the drum. Oh, I asked him what, because by that point I was already singing like round ends, students, you know? Yeah. So I asked him why he did that. He said that way we're not competing with our drum. So I think the idea of, of the strumming, as some will call it and round and singing, yeah, really came out of necessity that if you got 1520 guys in a circle hitting the drum as hard as they can. And that the strum actually kills the sound, it stops the reverb from the drum. So I don't know, what do you think? What do you think of that?

Shandin Pete: 50:44

But I believe it sounds very practical. You know, I've heard I think I've heard mentioned that it was a it was like, mimicry of airplanes flying over

Aaron Brien: 50:57

here that too, and I could never track down where really came from.

Shandin Pete: 51:01

Yeah. To kind of acknowledge the the battles, I suppose the world war one when the battles were going on? I don't know. I don't know for sure. I want to know, we're gonna get somebody on who knows.

Aaron Brien: 51:14

I think it comes that style comes from more like Saskatchewan, like most women and my grid pheasant and yeah, even the nakota reserves and stuff. Yeah. And then it spread from that hub of thunder child in like, then it spread it spread out. We're talking with them and last 80 years, you know, right. Now, it's like, it's almost like pop music, you know,

Shandin Pete: 51:36

it is everybody does it. East, east to west, south to north. It's become the norm, in which Listen, it's, and we should acknowledge that. That's my leading song. Acknowledge. I think if you sing in that style, you should acknowledge the origins in at least a 15 minute monologue prior to singing. Did you ever see that before? Apparently, I never seen it. But I was told that there was, there was certain drum groups This was in the 70s and 60s, and they would they would proclaim or say, this song I'm gonna sing comes from these these in these such and such folks. And then they'd sing it. You know, just a little, just a little shout out. I guess. Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 52:36

I've seen that before. I've seen that. I've heard that on older recordings. It seemed to be real popular. And like the early 80s Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 52:43

yeah, bring it back. Bring it back, guys.

Aaron Brien: 52:46

We're back. Where before each song to say this song was composed by so and so is shown to me at this place. And yeah, we're gonna sing it here today. I could usually like that.

Shandin Pete: 52:59

Yeah, yeah.

Annie Ost: 53:01

How many people couldn't sing anymore? If they had to do that? Isn't that

Shandin Pete: 53:06

every song.

Annie Ost: 53:11

But how many people don't want to acknowledge like, no, I made this song. This is my song.

Shandin Pete: 53:16

Oh, yeah.

Aaron Brien: 53:18

Oh, there's a handful out there that would love to acknowledge themselves.

Shandin Pete: 53:24

Yeah, I yeah. Yeah. I know what you mean, I, you know, this, this generation of, I don't know, every generation is different. Every generation is a little different. They got their own challenges. And, you know, what I was mentioning earlier was this idea of the work of the past generation. So this this one of the things that kind of been bothering me recently, you know, you got this a movement, you know, and that people died. You know, there was this battle and this whole generation kind of was trying to bring back our ways, but now I don't know about now anymore, but in the past and probably 510 years, and probably still some people do it, but they make a mockery of this song, this ame song that was sung during that yeah, that time, and I never I never did. I'm guilty of it. Yeah, I've probably messed around a little bit. And as I've grown older, I begin to acknowledge that that's why I wasn't really the greatest thing to do because man those people were on the front lines they were they were battling they were putting their lives in danger in a way and um,

Aaron Brien: 54:37

well I think I actually think how singers started making fun of it or not acknowledging that song was partly because of the way it's composed. Right? Cuz I think that's arguable. I don't think that's descend anybody. It is composed kind of different. It doesn't, you know what I mean?

Shandin Pete: 54:59

Yeah, yeah. Has it has a flavor to it that doesn't like in itself to. I don't know what to say it doesn't like. What? It's got that 70s Phil. It's got the 70s vibe. Yeah, it's like wearing an old pair of bell bottoms.

Salisha Old Bull: 55:17

Yeah. Which I'm not against the disco ball somewhere.

Shandin Pete: 55:21

Yeah, it'd be the disco ball of tunes. And that's not theirs.

Aaron Brien: 55:26

I've done a dude, I've got the song.

Shandin Pete: 55:30

Yeah, yeah. So that that, that the feel of the land acknowledgement is somewhat like that. For me, it's like, okay, I hear these I hear these people try and they're trying to do something in it might be misguided. And often it's Goofy, and it's awkward. But somewhere somewhere beyond all that through all through the veil of all that misunderstanding, there's something there. And there's something I think that this next generation or our generation, or any generation of Native people has, has an opportunity to, to intercede or to, to become active and say, okay, maybe maybe, let me let me let me have a conversation and let's try to guide this thing to something better. And what is the answer to that? What is the better thing? Or what is the next thing that might appease? more folks? I don't know. But I want to know, from from you guys, what do you think what's what's what would be a better sign of mute showing mutual respect on both ends? So from both the indigenous community, you know, who maybe want to just dog on on the efforts, and then maybe from the the non native folks who are just kind of shrugging their shoulders like, well, I'm trying it, but I just don't really know what to do. What do you think?

Annie Ost: 56:46

I think it's funny, because the people that would tend to step up to that and say, This is what I think you should do tend to be like, the token. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, it tends to be the people that shouldn't it's like, what actually have that? Like? Um, I don't know, I guess, the better or like, who are more open to, to just open to these? I think like, that's, that's where it's like, it's so great.

Shandin Pete: 57:28

Yeah. Yeah. Like what Aaron was saying, you know, what, it's of no consequence. To me, if an institution does or doesn't do a gland acknowledgement, we got we got work that we're doing. Good.

Salisha Old Bull: 57:42

I like, just going back to what I said earlier, the little, little things that we even do, like on our, on our roads nowadays is it's like kind of common to see a sign that has some language, and the language might have the name of the place. And I feel like that's, that's something more unique. And even here, where we live, there's more than one child and more than one language. And it's helped me to even break down some of my barriers. And I made an effort to try to pronounce the words and this other language that's here on our reservation. And I don't think I would have ever done that before, unless I unless I married somebody from that tribe. I mean, I don't think I would have made the effort to learn that. And then also along that line, off reservation, in the places where you tend to hear that acknowledgment being stated. I know, I got to help with they were doing like a redesign of a bridge and they wanted to find a way to acknowledge without saying it, and so they put the place name there at that bridge of what that what the fish used to call that place, and I thought that was cool. And that river is really used a lot for people who float in the summer. Yeah. And people rely on so they always see that. That they're in if they're up on the riverbank, there's like some historical information. So it's not a land acknowledgement like a statement. It's more of a this is what this place is. This is what happened here. And I don't know if it's like getting forgotten, but I don't care. Is that as much as I do this trend that's happening anymore,

Annie Ost: 1:00:05

like the actual monument or something that's permanent in place?

Salisha Old Bull: 1:00:12

Another monument, but just, um, I know before, when I work with Aaron Aaron's The one who kind of conceptualize that with me as we, we see the land at places like you, it's marked out by places. And that's how you understand how to navigate the land. And so being able to understand like, what it's what it's called, and in your language, it's really, it's really helpful to know all of those things. And then when you go to explain those things, and even if you're talking to a really knowledgeable elder don't even refer to a place and that gives you some context as to where exactly that they're talking about. And then what I know, going a step further than that, when you think about the intertribal Miss of it all, if that same place where I just mentioned that that river area if the Blackfeet have a name for that, too, then that means I mean, that gives them a place there to I mean, I don't have to sit there and defend myself over I just know they call it something then there you go. I mean, you gotta you got an emperor. There you go.

Shandin Pete: 1:01:28

Yeah, yeah. What about you, Aaron, what do you see? What do you see is the thing that's gonna, I guess, be a notch up from the efforts.

Aaron Brien: 1:01:40

I like to play same idea. I think that's like, light years. Yeah. Just a generic land acknowledgement.

Shandin Pete: 1:01:49

Yeah, yeah, I agree

Aaron Brien: 1:01:51

because it's undisputable. Like she's saying like it's undisputable. Like even if a Blackfoot person or a crow person or whatever. And then you give a suit person that says that, yeah, they acknowledge this place in the suit name. This places that even if crows are like, you know, what, it is a crow name or whatever, it's, it's which whatever, that's between us and them, I guess. I don't know. What does it. It's just I think it's a it's like seems classier to me.

Shandin Pete: 1:02:22

Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. And then it connects it to to a larger piece of of a worldview, rather than to say, these people occupied this land. It's to say, Okay, this is this particular river right here. This was a crossing, because it's called this or that

Aaron Brien: 1:02:41

people just learn something, too, you know,

Shandin Pete: 1:02:43

yeah, you learn. Learn some.

Annie Ost: 1:02:46

Yeah. And you definitely take away more in life by learning something rather than being told something.

Shandin Pete: 1:02:55

Right, right. Right. Yeah, you're kind of populating otherwise, for I guess, for the, for the naive person, or for the person who is unaware of the history of a land, you'd begin to populate that, that, that area with with these activities with real life practical things, rather than just, I guess it's an empty statement of occupation? I don't know. That's how I feel about it.

Annie Ost: 1:03:22

There's even like, in even other indigenous people who don't know, correct, might not know the language like it feels good to learn that, like they don't have maybe there's there's a lot of people out there that don't have anybody to share with them, teach them that they've learned from So, that also brings it home for somebody to be able to learn that or be able to know that

Shandin Pete: 1:03:50

Yeah, for sure. So, what is then I guess what is the what would be that the take home message to any organization any even native people who want to naysay or who who are maybe Miss or misunderstand our message, what is the what is the thing then that can be done to I guess take that step forward? I mean, sure, we can we can know and take in the place name but what I mean does it does it have to be a statement that we have to have this stated at every function

Aaron Brien: 1:04:33

gives it a real it gives it a real like England vibe like this, like Harry Harry gives it that like, when really I think it should just kind of be a natural thing. Like, yeah, like if like if you're visiting with an older person, anywhere they'll say you're just sitting there visiting, they'll be like, Oh, I remember I used to come here. Yes, also lived here and they own some horses. Right here and we used to mess with the horses. Yeah. Like that's a natural way of acknowledging what was there before you and it never felt weird, awkward. Gee, nothing, you know.

Shandin Pete: 1:05:10

Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 1:05:13

So rehearsed like the rehearsed thing, like, on this day of all lost

Shandin Pete: 1:05:20

Four score and seven years ago. Then the Battle of Gettysburg? Well, I don't know, that's probably,

Salisha Old Bull: 1:05:32

I think, I think the the way it comes out, like in a physical sense is pretty helpful for I mean, if you see something, you think about it in context of language revitalization. And yeah, just like I was saying earlier, like I am language that has, that's not my language. But I wouldn't have done that if I didn't care so much about where I lived. And so the place where I live, I can say it and say, listen, Courtney, you know, but I'm not cooking, you know, and, and it's nice to be able to see that or to see the physical sense of it. I mean, use it all over. You see all over the place. Like if somebody builds a building, and they want to have a establish that area, they'll put the date of the building on the building. Yeah, no. And it's like, people who are proud of that way of life, they can always refer to that in a historical sense. And they liked that. No, they like their the ability to be able to refer to that. And I think it's the same, like showing somebody physically or something is that is it. I think I felt like those were We were going good for a long time.

Shandin Pete: 1:06:59

I think so. Yeah. There was a lot of work in the place names, genre of things. And I kind of bled into the non native communities. But this land acknowledgement business seemed I don't know if it took took it over. But I mean, it's become very prominent. So what I'm hearing then is, we need to promote some natural, some natural, I don't know, natural and casual commentary about a certain place. What's that? What do you say organic, organic. We need to promote a plant based company conversational method of inserting a statement that makes us all feel good yet what what is it? What are you saying? is she saying no? No,

Salisha Old Bull: 1:07:58

we need to bury we need to bury

Shandin Pete: 1:08:01

bury the hatchet.

Salisha Old Bull: 1:08:03

We bury some gold and make bury some gold and make us very simple.

Shandin Pete: 1:08:09

No, bury some gold and then what? Make Oh, bury some gold and make a treasure map. Yeah, was placed names on it.

Unknown: 1:08:21

The clue is a place

Shandin Pete: 1:08:26

located in a book written by such person that describes the history and plight of the Native American. Yeah, that'd be kind of cool. Let's start fundraising. How much do you think it would take for a large group of people to locate some money in

Aaron Brien: 1:08:44

GoFundMe? Or Kickstarter? We're gonna go ahead. I think I've exhausted my internet.

Shandin Pete: 1:08:53

What you're out a minute minutes I think he's I think he's out of minutes. Oh,

Aaron Brien: 1:09:04

man a minute.

Shandin Pete: 1:09:05

Is that a minute? I got a calling her I got a card. Yeah, good memory. There was a guy yeah, the guy who hit guy did Yeah. What was it called? I can't remember his name but it's delicious. Cutting out too bad. Aaron, are you getting this? Is your is Aaron cutting out to Aaron? Maybe it's I bet it's solution. I because we're on the same internet. We're using it up. Okay, so he said he made a map. Yeah, hit some gold somewhere. So what I think we need to do is we're going to start a GoFundMe to procure some gold bullion, and then we will proceed to bury that somewhere in a place. And then we'll use that as a platform. To launch the new, the new new land acknowledgement system. She still has a calling card. That's what's funny. is founded this past year. Yeah. You lease Golders is that you lease gold that's showing? I don't know. Um, well

Annie Ost: 1:10:28

say that in the 90s calling cards were like gold.

Shandin Pete: 1:10:32

The gold. cards were the gold of the 90s. They were, they were? Well, I think solutia is all locked up. So they show you there. So Alicia can hear Aaron? Aaron? Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 1:10:57

No, no, I'm here.

Shandin Pete: 1:10:59

You're here. Okay. Let's, well, let's wrap this up here. Let's wrap this up. Let's wrap this. What what's the take home message? Because, you know, we should come up with the solution. We, we, we ran or went around and talk about things that were important. But if there's somebody listening, native or non native and saying, Hey, I, I like these land acknowledgments. What do you guys saying? what's what's the what's the message that you're trying to convey? Just so we're not confusing? What are you trying to say? Anybody? Go? Go? All right, talking to us? Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 1:11:32

I would say I would say, um, maybe do the place name thing. polish it up? Don't you know, don't overdo it. You don't need to overdo it.

Shandin Pete: 1:11:41

Right. Okay. I don't know.

Annie Ost: 1:11:46

I would say thank you. But maybe try the next step. Which would be what? Just going deeper in, in your personal search for rightness? going, keep going. Because I really, that's what it's really about the people that say it, you know, they're, they're just trying to, like, make right with the world or whatever they want to they want to validation themselves for even being there. And yeah, that's not I mean, it's, like, you know, like, I've heard quite a few people like white guilt, you know, right. And like, so like, we don't want to shame people for what they're trying to do. And, right, I think it's really easy to get in. So like, trying to say it, and then not in a nicer way of like, just just try to go deeper. And yeah, maybe hear some people that are from this area? And not just one or two. Right, right. Like, multiple people and multiple different opinions.

Shandin Pete: 1:13:10

Yes, that's really important. I think, very important. You know, there's, there's pockets of cultural folks that they don't want to be in the spotlight, they don't want to be asked, they don't want to, they don't want to help nobody outside of their own community, because they are doing the work in their community. And all these other things are just, you know, they're reserved for, for for things that are outside of the purview of what they think are important. So that's why you get you can get some misinformation from, from folks about what what is right for native folks, you know, because this just the fact that we native folks come from a diverse background of understanding of our own cultural histories. And, you know, I think it's important that we understand that in non native folks understand that as well, that one opinion doesn't cover every opinion. And one person's fact might not be right. or correct for the whole group. So really important matches there. Yes. Is and you know, in, in science and in anything, anything you do, you always want to get validation. And that work to do that is pretty important. So Alicia, what you got? So Alicia,

Salisha Old Bull: 1:14:31

yeah, can you hear me? Yep. Yes. Um, I agree. I think the it's important. It's kind of like what I said earlier, I see it as somebody who's trying to make some type of effort. And I think it's important to validate that because if you don't validate it, I feel like we're taking a step backwards. But just to get that far, and then maybe Be a part of a solution as opposed to the not the solution is trying to change to help have forward positive. Because ultimately, it's not even really about us. It's about our kids and on right, trying to make it better for our kids. So I think that's kinda where my mind goes.

Shandin Pete: 1:15:25

Yeah, yeah. So if you had to talk to the administrator of a program or an organization and institution, and they said, help us What do we do? I'm I don't know what to do. What what would be the recommendation,

Salisha Old Bull: 1:15:44

I would tend to sway toward the thing I was talking about this, you know, during this time is just the place name, you know, it's really important. I feel like that's a part of our identity, it grounds us, it makes us connected to where we're at. It gives us our sense of where we belong, and where our ancestors came from, and just being able to I feel like that's almost the opposite of shaming when you're educating somebody who flew there, their ancestors migrated. Here. Yeah, at least, it's acknowledging we didn't migrate here. We were just here. And if we did, it's because of our the reservation history that happened, but just felt like that's pretty important. That level of detailed education.

Shandin Pete: 1:16:36

Right, right. Yeah,

Annie Ost: 1:16:37

that makes me think of that makes me think of something is like shunted. When you ask that question. If you were going to say, what would you say to like an administrator? So what if, like, so you tell that administrator, like what you think they should do about the name placement, but then you tell them, but you're gonna have to find out? So like, then you put them in that and indigenous research? Researchers shoes, like what it is what what it takes to like for how often how many land acknowledgments? Would we see if that administrator couldn't just ask his Indian friends what to say, or whose land he's on or look up on the app, but he had to actually like, go to an elder to ask them, or multiple elders? Some what it's called how you say it.

Shandin Pete: 1:17:30

Right? Right.

Annie Ost: 1:17:32

Like that. That's what makes a real change in a person's like, heart. You know, like, like, you know, I mean, that when you actually have to make a real step in that direction, rather than just so don't get messed up.

Shandin Pete: 1:17:53

Yeah, don't put don't put the work back on to the indigenous people you want to recognize, I mean, crepes, man, wait, what have we done? What have we done? What? We haven't done? Nothing. We're just trying to live, you know, and then to be placed with the burden of crafting a lie. I don't know. Even consulting and all that. That seems like that's, I mean, that's the kind of work I would I would enjoy doing, you know, saying, okay, here's, here's some ideas, but not everybody would enjoy that. They're like, go do it. Do it yourself. I mean, not in a mean way. But go go do some work. Go, this

Annie Ost: 1:18:32

is who I would, who I would ask if I were you? type of thing. Like, oh, I would go ask this person.

Shandin Pete: 1:18:40

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like giving? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's good. I think that's a good way. I know, we're not going to come up with all of the answers. But I think it's something that needs further discussion. I think it's something that you know, young, young, native, native scholars and Native people who are into activism and trying to find, you know, their, their place in, in that kind of environment. I think it's something that we all need to work on to guide those younger people in a way and I'm sure there's a lot that we can learn from their own experiences, because we I mean, we, a lot of us have been through it. We've had our own experiences. But I don't know. There's just a lot more in this issue. And this, this idea of the land acknowledgement is just one small piece of a larger puzzle of, of diversity and inclusion. And that's that's a whole nother a whole nother talk. It's a whole nother episode that we could jump into but just making one these small efforts I think are very important. So I don't know anything. Anything else. What else? You think? I think we've exhausted it. What do you guys think? Yeah, I agree. That's it just agree. I moved to bring this meeting

Salisha Old Bull: 1:20:20

knowledge. Like, I would like to go on in my life. I'd like

Shandin Pete: 1:20:31

to close this session of prs Rs, the podcast. Okay, I seen a yawn. Alright, thank you for joining us on this episode. And if you want to learn more about what we're up to go ahead and search Tribal Research Specialist in Twitter, Facebook, or YouTube, and check out our other sites. And if you want to contribute to the show, go ahead and look us up on Patreon. We would appreciate your donation