Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

#66 - When the Ceremony Goes Viral: Who Gets to Comment?

• Shandin Pete, Aaron Brien • Season 3 • Episode 66

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Shirt Fails 0:00:00 
Honey 0:01:23
Archival Music & YouTube Plug 0:04:45
Recording Sacredness: The Big Debate 0:09:37
Public or Private? Drawing the Line 0:21:58
Comments, Critiques & Cross-Tribal Shade 0:27:47
History, Law & Sacred Documentation 0:39:52
Modern Moments: Livestreams & Boundaries 0:47:22
Wrap-Up: Lessons, Laughs & Respect 1:01:21

Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné). 

How to cite this episode (apa)
Pete, S. H., Brien, A. & Old Bull, S. A. (Hosts). (2025, October 13). #66 - When the Ceremony Goes Viral: Who Gets to Comment? [Audio podcast episode]. In Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com

How to cite this podcast (apa)
Pete, S. H., & Brien, A. (Hosts). (2020–present). Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast [Audio podcast]. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com/

Podcast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
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Aaron Brien:

I look like the fat guy. Look like a fat guy. I need a different shirt. This is not good. That was

shandin pete:

like when you when you reach up for something, you know how the the skin kind of stretches in the underarm kind of looks like a little bat wing?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah? Dude, it's not good. You

shandin pete:

you're getting that. I mean, no, I'm not saying I'm not that. I'm not not there, but a guy just don't get the same kind of exercise as as once was.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, once were

shandin pete:

I, once was, I won't know how to say it. Man, no, no, come on.

Aaron Brien:

Remember that movie?

shandin pete:

Yeah, I do remember it. We had to do another, another episode on native cinema, nah. I think we covered them all. Let's say some new ones. Haven't seen any new native cinema, have you

Aaron Brien:

that TV well, that TV show, which one north of North?

shandin pete:

Oh yeah, north. I didn't. I hadn't even, I haven't even, I think maybe solution might have watched it once or twice. I don't remember.

Aaron Brien:

I got stung by a bee yesterday.

shandin pete:

Oh, to get some special powers. I

Aaron Brien:

didn't get no bee powers. I You don't feel like

shandin pete:

the urge to eat honey. Hey, man did. Was there someone when you was a kid on the crow res or, like, not someone, but some place where you could buy, like, just honey. Oh, the hooterites, they set up a stand and they sold honey.

Aaron Brien:

I think I remember people buying hooter right, honey, but I don't know where they bought it. I think they're buying it from launch grass IgA, what

shandin pete:

used to be this little, the white, this little, this little,

Aaron Brien:

that's what it was, huh?

shandin pete:

What do you remember it?

Aaron Brien:

There's a B guy. What was his name? Lafleur. Lafleur. Peter Lafleur, like the hockey player.

shandin pete:

Anyway, there was this little honey stand in Arlene. And when I was a kid, a young kid, my mom and dad begin beginning of the beginning of the summer, would go and buy all his kids a little, excuse me, those little bears, you know, yeah, but each one, each one of us would get a bear of honey, and we could just go to town on it. Yeah. I don't know if that was like a generational thing, but I ain't I remember kids a thing of honey.

Aaron Brien:

I remember honey being a more prevalent thing than it is now, but I don't, yeah, I just remember people. I do remember my mom trying to cure us of allergies. You're my brother of allergies with honey.

shandin pete:

Yeah, maybe that's what it was all about.

Aaron Brien:

I don't know. It didn't actually work, though.

shandin pete:

No, think it did. Yeah. Interesting?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, I was

shandin pete:

trying to get a song ready, but I didn't. I failed, just looking for something, right? Now, yeah, I got man, oh, actually, not. I want to show you this song. It's a real good one. It's a real good one. Let me see. How can I play it? I got it on my phone. Good song. I know how to play it. Give me a second here, I'm going to go to our YouTube page, and I'm going to encourage all our listeners to go to our YouTube page and dive in to the hours and hours of old Indian music from two different archival What do you call archival bodies? Bodies of archive?

Aaron Brien:

What do you call it,

shandin pete:

archival repositories. There it is. The archival repositories of tribal research specialists is vast, and one should partake in it. Can almost say, I'm just kind of stalling for time. Okay, I heard this song on hearing it, man, it just it stood out to me. I'm going to share this sound with you. I'm going to share this song. Song. Share this song. Yeah, can you see that? Can you see that?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, I could see it, Yeah, here we Go. Hey. I

shandin pete:

yeah, Oh,

Aaron Brien:

what's like an old chicken

shandin pete:

dance song or an old grass dance song you start getting into it. Here. I thought it was a good little song. Man, no, of course, that took me a long time to catch it for some reason. Of course, I'm not in singing shape as I used to be. You know, hard songs, hard to catch them, especially the ones that are a bit off, off the normal menu, you know, agree to disagree. Agree.

Aaron Brien:

Disagree what's going on, yeah.

shandin pete:

So if anybody's out there that knows the origin of that song, I'd like to know like to know more, yeah, so I recently returned from your homelands, deep in the heart of what is now known as crow country. Have you heard that term? Or people say that when they say so called, so called Canada, so called Montana. You heard that before, right? Yeah, kind of like a bit of a protest of the nature the name of a certain place. Wonder if anybody has ever said I was in so called crow country, like, some rural like, who was there before? Like, way, way back in time, probably, shoshones. Maybe, probably, yeah, yeah. Maybe, like, a real scorn Shoshone shows up and she has to do a land acknowledgement,

Aaron Brien:

so called country. Yeah.

shandin pete:

That's that's out of hand, but no, so I was there and had a pretty good time, but not there. Was my time there. Well, not my time, but being there my scene, and witnessed in the age old controversy. What was that? Oh, yeah. Wouldn't you like to know that this controversy is widespread across Indian country. Are you waiting for my diatribe on this first I want to see if you can figure out what I'm talking about. And this would be like 20 Questions. And so that's the question. I gave you, an answer widespread across Indian country, and it is any ceremonialism or celebratory event is not immune to this internal there's the next clue, this internal controversy, and it's probably been, I guess, more more prevalent in the last three to four decades due to the advent of media technology or ways to capture and record. He got it. He got it

Aaron Brien:

recording or filming or photographing, like ceremonies. Yeah, are things that are considered sacred.

shandin pete:

Oh, yes, you're sharp today, Man Boy, I'm on it. You put your, you put your big boy shirt on your What was you in earlier jammies? That's your jammy shirt.

Aaron Brien:

I was in like a cut off shirt. It was actually Amanda shirt, but, um, where people like, cut off, like, so, oh yeah, I had, like, a really long day. We bought some hay, and I unloaded it at my dad's place, 80 small square bells. God, dang, I stacked my dad helped me. But we stacked them, and it kind of started, it was like raining, so it was like, real humid, like it was a slight rain. That's what I was trying to be, you know, yeah. And so it made me, like, real humid, yeah. So when I got back, I got out of those clothes that I just grabbed a shirt, but we got them from the same place. I think they're the same size too, right? Yeah, but they say ani Nakota College on them. Sean Chandler gave them to us, the president of the college there, and we were visiting one time, and he's like, Oh, I got shirts for you.

shandin pete:

So nice, yeah, so.

Aaron Brien:

But then when I seen myself in the screen, I was like, we're not doing this.

shandin pete:

Not gonna happen. Yeah, did that? Did the bales get wet?

Aaron Brien:

Well, the ones that were. On the top got wet. So when I, when I stacked them, I just put those to the side, I'm gonna let them dry out, and I put about three, four inches of space between each bale while I stack so Eric can get through a little bit. Yeah,

shandin pete:

pro level, no, of course, you had your dad Hawking over you, so he's telling you what to do, right?

Aaron Brien:

Oh, no, no. He came out. I was about 20 bells in. He came out. So he climbed on the trailer, and he was handing him to me. So I gave him the benefit of gravity, as I respect my father,

shandin pete:

yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

And I didn't stack them very high, because case I got to move around, because I'm gonna check on them tomorrow see if they're damp, then I gotta take that top row off, you know,

shandin pete:

yeah, yeah. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's some this, this controversy of recording or documenting things is, I think is only a controversy because of that word that you said, this idea of sacred, right? Sacred things. And I'm curious why, when and where did the idea of like, like, the idea that, if something is documented on a pen, paper, media of some sort, why that infringes on the sacredness of that thing. Because this is everywhere, man, and we even talked about it, remember, we talked about it in one episode, a guy from that tribe made sketches of some ceremonial doings, you know, just he just, that's what he did. Then those got into the hands of someone, or he sold them because he was hard up for cash, and that was created a controversy among the people there about sacred things being recorded. So, from, so you, you, you're immersed in, in the field of of this in a particular way. What's the deal? Man, what's the history about it? Do you know?

Aaron Brien:

Well, I don't, I don't know the history from the tribal point of view. You know, like, you hear it all the time, where people are like, you can't take pictures of that. It's sacred. Yeah. I mean, but when you think about tribes, they've been allowing some sort of recording, whether it's just writing or whatever, for a while. Yeah, and it's no secret that tribes who have lost culture too that has benefited from those things.

shandin pete:

Oh, yeah, but

Aaron Brien:

I think it's kind of an a weird thing too, because what I notice, what my problem with it is, is whether somebody is given permission to record something you would consider sacred or not, is actually none of my business, right? And I think that's, that's the issue that I have with it, is when people who are not even part of it, yeah, feel like, feel the need to comment, whether it's on someone's Instagram or Tiktok or whatever, and they'll say, well, they shouldn't be putting them there, and I'm like, well, that's that's not for me to say, like, I have no control and no right over anybody's ceremonial doings other than things that i i either own that way of doing it, or I'm a sponsor of something, or I'm not gonna, like, Tell somebody they can't, I don't know. I don't know if they can, right, no. Like, right, right. Also, the other issue, I think, is to is to assume that we fully understand what sacred means, yeah, and, and, like, how to how everything is, like, encompassed in that. I don't know if we fully understand. I guess I, I, I'm, I'm comfortable enough to say like revering something, or caring for something, holding something sacred, and just having simple forms of respect, all might kind of be different in some way, yeah. So I about a week few days ago, I sent you a tick tock of this guy who filmed the inside of a Sundance lodge after the ceremony was over. And really, he was just kind of like, man, awesome, right? Whatever. Yeah. I didn't see anything wrong with it, and then he just got blew up in the comments, like, yeah. Like, slaughtered, slaughtered him and and his his response to one of them was like, I do what I want. I don't care. It's funny to me, because it's like, man, most people are going to take what he said as like, arrogance, right? They're going to say, yeah, he has no respect. Nobody's going to comment on the people that feel the need to tell that man what's right or wrong in his tribe. Yeah, I think that's more arrogant than him commenting back or whatever, so, right? But I, I don't know the origins of why we say you can't photograph. I mean, I do think there's simple forms of respect, like cameras can be a disturbance and a distraction, yeah, but, like, I do think that something there's levels to, like, quote, unquote, sacredness, I guess

shandin pete:

you think so. Like, yeah,

Aaron Brien:

well, yeah. Like, I've seen, I've seen people freak out over a drum getting whistled at a powwow the same way as, like, I don't know, man, like, yeah, like, the parade dance, yeah, that you were part of the big crow. It's a huge crow ceremony. There's all kinds of people recording. In fact, they streamed it on Pow wows.com Yeah, and they, there was a lot of, I'm sure there was a lot of discussion about whether it should be something like that should be,

shandin pete:

yeah, streamed and,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, I think that comes more with the people that putting it on, and their comfort level with things and and like, yeah, really understanding what it is. I don't. I actually didn't even notice them. We were singing. I sang for it. You were the drum. They call it the captive. So, yeah, at any point, did you ever I'd never even noticed them. No,

shandin pete:

I didn't. I didn't either. I didn't know between the

Aaron Brien:

heat and between the heat and having to figure out songs and stuff. It just seemed like the focus was somewhere else. So, yeah, I didn't see anything wrong with it. And, and in some ways, I've I liked it because I ended up watching that video a couple times after. You know, it's kind of nice to sit there and watch it. And, yeah, I mean, I don't know, so years ago, and I can't remember who told me this. I actually believe the name that comes to mind, and I don't know if this is because I seen him on a live stream, but it's Tommy Christians, but it was around the time 2004 2005 Yeah, when I heard this, which was the time I met Tommy, and we're visiting with him, but I heard that the Ghost Dance was photographed, and they published those pictures in the newspaper, and it was because of those published pictures in the story of this Indian uprising that it spooked the non native people, which eventually led to, like the Wounded Knee massacre and all that stuff. So there was kind of this fear of photographing and having it get out there. Also our religions, our our ceremonies, ways of worship were outlawed, and so like, you couldn't, like, get them out there. Like you couldn't say, Hey, don't take no pictures. We don't want it getting out because for whatever reasons or so. Yeah, I don't think we've always had Sun dances and medicine dances and stuff way out in the middle of nowhere. I think they were kind of close to camps and communities. I think that was a result of the laws. So that means also the hush hush of it has to be impacted by those laws. Yeah, so I think after two, three generations, when you're when you're like that, you your protection of these things and your opinions can be misguided. Yeah? I don't know, though, what do you think? No,

shandin pete:

I agree. I agree. I think there's, there's got to be, like you said, there's got to be levels of of this idea of sacredness that would would govern, like the the procedure or the, I don't know, the access to to this, to this thing, this thing deemed sacred. Access to it to certain degrees, right? So you mentioned this parade dance. It's the whole, the whole camp, isn't there's there's not well to a degree. There's not limited access to keep people out, right? If there's Non, non natives, non crows, if they're there, they're they can witness it and see it. There's no announcement saying, Don't record this. You shouldn't record this. It's a public affair,

Aaron Brien:

I mean, and that's who it's for. It's for the camp. So if you're part of the camp and you're part of there, that's that's just for. There have been years where they said they didn't want anyone filming it. But I also think that comes from the time when cameras were, like, two feet long and a huge distraction. And yeah, now you snap a picture with your phone or your loved ones. And yeah, yeah, I but I do think, and I do think there's a difference, yeah, even in the parade dance versus, like, the Sun Dance, there's a big difference, or the medicine dance, yeah, pray dance, there is a social element to certain ceremonies, yeah. And some are hush hush and like, and I, and I think that has more to do with like, there's, there's public ceremonies, there's private ones, yeah,

shandin pete:

yeah, there's like, yeah,

Aaron Brien:

that has to do more with, like, what they're doing, what their job is. So it might be two, just two or three people, but if your ceremony is to bless the entirety of the camp, yeah, everyone can really, is a participant on some level, you know, yeah,

shandin pete:

has to be by default, I suppose. So, yeah, so in that particular way. I mean, I don't think anyone would say that, that that that ceremonial process. I don't think anybody would say that's not sacred, right?

Aaron Brien:

I would, yeah. I mean, think not. But people on Tiktok do all the time. They feel like they need to. They feel like they need to. Like, why is me personally, and you've been there, like, when it's a it's a it's a nice Pow Wow. Your drum groups jamming, and you get whistled. It's like, fun. It Like It's a lot of fun. And, yeah, I don't care who you are or how traditional you are, how not traditional, untraditional, you are, when your drum group gets whistled, it's pretty exciting. It does change the

shandin pete:

mood, sure. Yeah, yeah, it does.

Aaron Brien:

I never thought at any point was it like, so sacred that, yeah, you, you couldn't take picture. I've enjoyed watching videos of drum groups singing and they're getting whistled. Because I've been there and I've, I've sat there, yeah, it's like, it's kind of fun to see it, and it's like, because I know that feeling, yeah. I also think that if it's so revered and so sacred, then it's, it's places not in power, yeah,

shandin pete:

yeah, yeah. If you're the person who's offended by that. There's a bigger issue, I guess, yeah, but then again, you know, I think people have the right to to consider that, I guess, in their own way.

Aaron Brien:

I think so. I think people have the right to sit and discuss things and have conversations about, like, things like that. I don't think people have the right to tell somebody from another tribe what they're doing is wrong. Yeah, I don't. I don't think we, we as a people, just because non native people are greater America does it doesn't mean it belongs with us. You know, like we don't. It's not my job to comment publicly for sure on what the shoshones are doing. Are the arapahos. Yeah, it's not my job. Now. I could sit here and talk with my partner and or talk with you, and we can discuss things and have cool conversations, yeah, like all night, and I don't think there's anything wrong with. App, no, I think we could even have debates, and people can argue, but those things are down for like, I just think it's crazy. So one time, I posted a video of a warrior's homecoming. They called the Shoshone dance. Yeah, in fact, I'll read you the comment. It's on my Tiktok. Yeah. This ceremony is for warriors to tell war deeds. And somebody commented on my on my video it, we call it the telly, the large telling of deeds dance. It's similar to the Salish scalp dance. And this person said, crows adopt too many ceremonies, too much ceremonial use of other tribes. They really have no traditions, just adoption. This person just commented on my video, wow. Like, what? First of all, that's just the nickname. We call it the Shoshone dance because it was made popular by a chief named red bear who fought against the Shoshone. Yeah. But the dance is called the large telling of deed dance, and as far as I know, it's completely Crow, yeah, it's not a borrowed ceremony, and it's one of the oldest ceremonies we have, but it's designed for the public. Yeah, it's for the public. It's for everyone. Witness come and look, yeah, they're going to tell more deeds, which we believe are blessings, you know, given to us. So, like, I would never do that, like, I wouldn't comment on somebody's video. And like, you can be like, Yeah, this ain't even yours. You guys are like, how do I know that? You know?

shandin pete:

Yeah, that's crazy. It's

Aaron Brien:

no lie that we have ceremonies that are adopted from other tribes. But how those those ceremonies, I wouldn't say maybe adopted is the wrong word. They were given to us, yeah, as gifts, yeah. So that's very different, you know, yeah. And we, in turn, have given ceremonies to other people, to other tribes,

shandin pete:

yeah? So

Aaron Brien:

I feel like when people comment on things like that, scolding people about especially outside of their own people, that's like, usually people with superficial knowledge, you know,

shandin pete:

oh yeah, that, yeah, that's, one of the problems, right there, is Yeah, unless you're unless you're an expert and a practitioner of of that tribe, then maybe I'd have just shut up. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

And then I also think it's like, there's plenty of other videos you can comment on, yeah. Comment on, yeah. On my video of a ceremony that belongs to the crows. I'm crow. It's in Crow Agency, yeah. Like,

shandin pete:

yeah, now, now, now, if it was, like, constructed in a different way, like, like, asking about it, like, is this was, is this an adopted ceremony? You know, there's a respectful way to provide comment on something, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

And that's probably not usually a comment on a video. That's probably a message that yeah might yeah and, and from the time I very first got on social media to now, I have gotten comments like that, like our questions, like, Hey, I'm curious. I seen your video. I'm just curious, like, what is this or what's this for? Or, Yeah, is it normal for you guys to record things like that? Yeah, the other thing I feel it's crazy that people have so there's, there's a few ceremonies where crow women wear war bonnets, yeah, and they're, again, public ceremonies. So people will post them. And so when I, when I look through the comments, I see people from other nations like commenting to me, like, that's not right, women shouldn't wear. And I'm like, again, like, why? How I would not do that? I would not comment yeah on somebody else's thing, you know? Like, yeah, like that. I don't know. I mean, I've talked a lot of smack too, so I'm probably,

shandin pete:

so this is the Yeah. I mean, agree that if you're gonna, if you're gonna make comment, make it respectful, and if you're expert, even if you're an expert and a practitioner, I mean, that's a whole different story.

Aaron Brien:

You, I would just tell people not to comment. Don't make if you really have a question, message that person and ask the question, don't comment, because all you're doing is creating chaos. Because I think there's people that do it for the sake of argument. They do it for the sake of their own insecurities and and, and I think it's coming from people who don't have a decent understanding of even their own ceremonial life as so that, how would they even know about another people? You know, I know there's tribes even in Montana that they film everything, and there's even things I thought, Well, that seems interesting, but that's exactly what I did. I thought to myself and said, Oh, that's interesting. I probably wouldn't do that, but I'm never, I would never go up to another person who owned the right to that ceremony or might be in charge of it, and I'd be like, you probably shouldn't do this. You know? It takes away the sacredness. What do I know about?

shandin pete:

You know, anyway, what were you gonna say? Oh, yeah. So, so this is this. So, this is my curiosity. So, What? What? What happened? So, so it says that there's a level of sacredness that's somewhat individual, that governs how you you ought to negotiate, how you publicly or privately, practice that, that thing that you deem sacred, that that's a no brainer, right? That's that seems like one level when it starts to get into where the participation becomes more than one person and then that, I mean, that's another level. But I think another level would be where this thing that is deemed sacred is like it has, it has elements that are somewhat common across different tribal groups. Like, for example, the Sun Dance and the sweat lodge, those like, there's, there would be common elements in a way, across different tribes and then, and it seems like, it seems like that's where people feel like they have the right to sort of cross the boundary and say, Oh yeah, you you shouldn't take a picture that sweat house, or you shouldn't be taking pictures you getting ready to do that, even though they're not of that particular person's tribal group, because they have a familiarity with that process, some people feel like they have an authority in a certain way to insert their, their their comment in that that seems like that's, I don't know. Again, there would be multiple levels to that too, because some of those, some of those things might be very private to one person and not so private to another. And it was like, I don't know who did you know this person? Grant bull tale. You know who that

Aaron Brien:

is, right? Oh yeah, oh yeah.

shandin pete:

Oh man, yeah. Anyway, he said something that sort of gets at this, this idea exactly what you're saying. He said, I don't, I don't want to call it say, I don't want to call it a sacred site, because your idea of something sacred and my idea of something sacred are a little bit different. And even if you have, I mean, that's, that was his quote, you know. So even if there's this, that that little tiny bit of difference that seems like a dangerous ground for someone to insert their idea onto someone else in that particular instance about the sweat house, because I've seen things, I've seen things, and I look and I said, Man, I yeah, like you just said I wouldn't do that, but to put yourself out there and to make a comment and throw shade on somebody for that is that's pretty golly,

Aaron Brien:

you know, I know, and I and me personally, I I feel like I have to have backing with everything I do. So yeah, I'm going to type a comment in before I type the comment. I've even done this as I'm typing a comment, and then I'll delete the then I'll just get rid of it, but I don't even post it. I think, what? What rebuttals can come to me from this? What? Yeah, what can like, people say, and then, then what happens is, I ultimately don't want to deal with it, yeah. I'm like, Well, I'm not even passionate about this enough to even deal with the response. So it's like, whatever. I'm not gonna comment. Yeah, yeah. And so I don't think people think about that. They just are like, Oh, my. God, they're filming a whistle. They're filming someone at Hinkley, pow wow. And they're, they're using the whistle on yellow hammer. You know, that's a ceremony. And it's like, is it though? Like, is it, is it? Is it a ceremony in the same sense that your picture is going to affect what is going on, and when you really think about it, that's a pretty arrogant view of the world. Those cameras can disrupt what what's going on. Grant, yeah, of course, not everything needs a camera in front of it. And I'm not advocating for that. What I'm advocating for is like, for everyone to, like, really learn those levels in their own people. And know, yeah, and know the roots of things you you know when to make comment, when comments appropriate, yeah. And you know when to shut up. And just, just because you have an opinion doesn't mean anyone needs to even hear it. Yeah, I mean, granted, I've, I've created a platform for myself to give my opinion, but so so I could also shut up. But there's a lot of things I don't say and but there's a lot of things you and I have talked about that have never been on the podcast because I just don't think it's designed. That particular conversation may have not been designed for the that, you know, yeah, this is different. It's like, I'm sure there's even been people who said they share too much on the podcast.

shandin pete:

Oh, yeah, yeah. I've heard that from some folks like, Oh, is that you should be talking should you be talking about that? And I'm like, I don't know. No. I mean, yeah, of course, because I did, but I don't know. I don't know. I don't get the I don't get the Okay, so, so some people think that, like white people are going to steal it. White people are going to steal that. Yeah, and we talked about this. You remember? I remember you mentioned something about the white people sweating up at Mount Shasta. Who cares? Who cares? It ain't affecting I mean, I don't think it's affecting us, those who do, those who practice that here.

Aaron Brien:

I do think that there's people out there that it's their sole purpose to police white people's bastardization of our, of our it's, I don't think it's mine. Everything's situational, right? If I ran across somebody, yeah, and they were doing that, and I felt the need to correct them, I might, I might, I don't know, but yeah, I'm I, and I know I won't, because I lived on another person's reservation for almost 20 years, and I never did it there. Yeah, and I was, I feel like I was pretty privileged that I got to see and participate in a lot of things, and in some ways, unfortunately, that I've participated in probably more than a lot of tribal members from there for various reasons. Yeah, but I've never saw that as ammunition to throw at other people, or, Oh yeah, to think I had any right to tell somebody what they're doing is wrong or right.

shandin pete:

Yeah, that's the thing. That's the thing with the ego of people, you know, it goes a bit, it goes a bit crazy when you get you arm yourself a little with a little bit of knowledge, and then you think that applies to many more things. I remember when I was a young, a young man about 18. I remember saying this to myself, I'm like, Man, I know. I know. I know a lot about a lot of things. I remember telling myself that you know because you're 18, you're young, you're just learning some new things, and then you get this little ego in your head that you know everything. And I remember telling myself that, and I think some people are subjected to that when they start gaining a bit of knowledge about, you know, and mostly it's surface knowledge, things you know. It's not practitioner practitioners knowledge, you know, they read some of the archival material, or maybe they, you know, learning a few things here and there, but I think it's like repeated. It needs to be repeated and practiced. And when, when you do those things among people, that's where you start getting a check on that, that ego that you know everything, and you had this right to, to expand that and police that among. Other people,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, yeah. But it's also like, yeah, thinking you have the it's also thinking you have a

shandin pete:

grasp, oh yeah, oh yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Like, we're all just trying to learn. And like, I don't, I feel like I've put a lot of time into understanding my people, but also just understanding the state of native people, yeah, put a more time than most, because not only is it a hobby, it's my profession, it's Yeah. And so if I've put that much time into something and I still feel like I have a lot to learn. I don't, I don't fully understand, yeah, things, how is the casual person, you know, not to sound arrogant, but how is the casual person gonna like be able to so I just, I don't know why people just can't be cool when it comes to that stuff. Just be cool, like, that person's doing that thing, you know, like, like,

shandin pete:

yeah,

Aaron Brien:

I don't know. Anyway,

shandin pete:

yeah, I don't know either. Oh, I don't know, man, but I hear this argument a lot, and it's, um, it's somewhat true, you know, like when some when someone disagrees with something being recorded, filmed or or documented in some way. People say, well, our some of our old people willingly recorded these things, willingly gave this information and documented it in a certain way. And a lot of that's true. I know there's, there's some, some some audio I have of one of the one of those anthropologists on the res here, actually recording a bunch of songs inside the sweat house. Stuck a recorder in there, and they did it on request from the some of some of some of my relatives and some of the older people at that time who were, you know, knowledgeable of all these things. They just said, Yeah, let's record it. You know, they were, they were interested in documenting, I suppose. I don't know what their motivation was, but they just did it. You know, they didn't care. Well, I don't, I wouldn't say they didn't care, but that happened?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, I think so you ever even just like, go on YouTube and like, type in, like a church service, like a Pentecostal church service? Yeah, I think there's like levels to things, right? So I don't think see anything wrong with filming a church service. But I've always felt like when people record, if anyone knows anything about the Pentecostal church, there's a, there's a thing called being slain, where they like, fall on the ground, right? Yeah, lay hands on me. Fall. Yeah. I do think that's not for the public, right? And I wouldn't even say I don't even believe in that. I mean, I'm not a practitioner in that thing. I don't participate, but I have enough respect to be like, I'm not gonna film that and post it and like, yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, I don't know. It just seems different than just a church service. It seems like something deeply personal, yeah? And plus, I think it can for the people in the video, because they fall maybe that can be embarrassing, you know, like, if they saw it, like, Oh man, look at that. I wish, yeah, look at my shirt comes up, you know, or whatever. So, like, there's just things that aren't for everybody, you know, yeah, yeah. Like, one time I went to a Sundance and they recorded people going into the Sundance at the beginning. Yeah. I didn't see anything wrong with that. But then once they started doing their thing at the very beginning, then yeah, I thought, well, maybe this part you don't need to record. You know what I mean? Yeah, that was just a good feeling. I didn't tell anybody that. I just kind of thought, yeah, yeah, everybody's got a camera. Everybody's got a different perspective of what those things are. And I don't know how you would police all of it.

shandin pete:

I know, yeah, that's like these rock concerts today versus the rock concert of the 90s, you know? I remember going to a Metallica concert, and they were frisking everybody. You had to pull your shirt up and spin around, and they patted you down, making sure you didn't have a recorder on you, so you weren't recording the concert, you know, but nowadays that's impossible to even do.

Aaron Brien:

It's impossible. It's impossible.

shandin pete:

So, what's this? So what? What's the deal with this? You know about the the the this Native American belief that a photograph. Yeah, it's going to steal your soul.

Aaron Brien:

I don't know. I always made fun of this, because I would hear this, and people would be like, or even, don't take a picture of that, because it'll it takes the sacredness away. Or, and I'm like, look at that. Look at look at that. The Europeans came over here and fought us for 400 years? Yeah, and tried everything from boarding schools to warfare to sickness and and religion, attacking religion and attacking our kinships. And turns out the only thing they had to do was take pictures that we were like. That was it. That's all they had to do. That was our kryptonite, stole everybody's soul, to take all of our sacredness away, just take pictures. And that was it. That's all then we just crumble. We just totally crumble.

shandin pete:

Yeah, why did those Why did those priests do all that work? You know, to work

Aaron Brien:

that hard. They just take a picture. Well, I'll take a picture of you. I'll steal your soul, and then I'll give your soul to to Jesus or whatever. Yeah, so we don't even have to get you to convert. We'll just steal your soul. We'll do and then you're good. But I just, I don't, I know that's crazy. I think the more you learn, the more you know when not to do those things and when, when it's permissible.

shandin pete:

Yeah, I think your church example is, yeah, your church example is a real good one, right? So you show up to a church. I mean, right off, right, right. Then you like, you don't ever go to church or nothing. But just like going into the church, you think, well, maybe, maybe I shouldn't record this. You could, I was, why would you anyway? You know, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go with my friend to church, and I'm gonna record the whole thing. What for? You know, I guess, yeah,

Aaron Brien:

just some things are private. I mean, I don't think it has anything necessarily to do with like, holiness are the sacredness meter, are stealing souls. I just think some things are private. Like I I've always thought it was weird when people film childbirth. Oh yeah, yeah. It's not because I'm afraid of childbirth are, I think it takes away the souls of anybody. I just think sometimes things are private. Yeah, all right. It's like, all right. Now, nothing wrong with as soon as the baby's born and taking pictures of the baby and on. That's never bothered me.

shandin pete:

But that's the same with like. That's the same with, like, funerals too. Like, I get that same sort of feeling that, yeah, maybe shouldn't take a picture of the person in the casket, you know, yeah?

Aaron Brien:

But some people do, yeah, one time, one time, one time, my grandpa died, so he's, he's got relatives from Fort burst. So, yeah, when he died, this was back in 2001 right? So he passed away, had his funeral, his relatives from Fort bursald came. I, I, I saw them taking pictures, right? Yeah. And I I even then I was 17 years old when he died, and I remember thinking to myself, Oh, that's weird. They're taking pictures. But I didn't go up to them and say, That's weird, you guys are taking pictures. So and if there was any time I would have done that, would have been then unmedicated hyper Aaron, but they mailed them to my grandma, and I remember, I remember her opening the letter, and there was those pictures of my grandfather in a casket, and I watched her, like, relive this moment of putting her husband of 50 years in the ground. And I was like, What was that for? Why would they, you know, it wasn't fun. It wasn't a fun moment, you know, yeah, and so we relived it again, and then it just kind of, it wasn't good, you know, in that instance, I don't know what the goal

shandin pete:

is to Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

I don't either. I think intention has a lot to do with it. Purpose, like, what are you using the stuff for? It has a lot, a lot to do with it. GRANT blue tail himself. Filmed, had a tobacco adoption ceremony. Filmed, yeah, had had it filmed, and there it caused some division. But even then, these were practitioners of this belief. Instead of them, yeah, going public and making comments, they just didn't participate. Yeah, and, and I think there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, it's your own comfortable. They weren't comfortable with it, so they didn't participate. They didn't tell grant he couldn't do it. They didn't say because they they respected the fact that grant is in charge, yeah, and so as it should be, right, as it should be,

shandin pete:

as it should be. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It's, it's not that confusing if you if you have a deep understanding of ceremonial things you know, because you can apply what you know of your own way, sort of to other people's ways. And the first sort of, the first, I guess, rule of that would be, you ain't got no right, you know, telling people how they can and can't do things outside of your own understanding.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, yeah. Now somebody comes to me and says, Aaron, I want to know we just did this thing. And in your opinion, did we do it, right? Was there anything we need to do? And, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I'll share my opinion. But that's very different, like being at home or, you know,

shandin pete:

yeah, very different, very different. And I think the second thing is, just with the new the new age of recording devices, you know, I think that the controversy or the disagreement of those things, I think, I think that's okay. I think people ought to have discussion about that thing, so long as it's sort of in internal, you know, like if, if people have had a problem with the recording of a parade dance or whatever that is uniquely crowed and Crow, people ought to be discussing that, not anybody outside. Yeah, it's weigh in on it. Yeah, shouldn't weigh in on that.

Aaron Brien:

I don't even know why people think their opinion is gonna matter to us.

shandin pete:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's sort of like, I sort of like the like. And we talked about it before the whole thing with, you know, these, this in the past, these overlapping territories, and then people are starting to infringe on other people's creation stories, saying, Oh, your creation story doesn't say that. Or you migrated from here or there. And that's like, that doesn't seem if, if a person is of a I guess I shouldn't even say that, but if you understand the nature of your own ceremonial ways, you know where your limits are to throw your weight outside of your own area. And generally, that's never, it's generally never,

Aaron Brien:

well, yeah, and with the amount of culture loss that we're experiencing, like I don't have time to give opinions on whether I think someone's I'm not going to go out of my way to comment on someone's post about they film A yaki corn dance or deer dance, you know, it's like, I, I, I mean, it's not that I don't care. It's like, man, like we're barely getting by, you know, really? And I think, yeah, crows, we sit in a very privileged position when it comes to our culture, like, we're very fortunate to have a lot left, but even I am fully aware like, how close we are to losing things, you know, like we're very close, and so I think people should just focus on that and not get so worked up. And, man, they like, I'll see these comments, and I'll be, I'll kind of follow them, yeah, and I'm like, holy smokes. They're like, really worked up. Like, I don't know, like, and I'll be watching those power lives. I like, we like to watch them because it's like, it's, I'm learning it's some of the best background noise, you know. And then all of a sudden, it'll stop. I'll look at the screen. It'll say ceremony, and progress. Oh, really, yeah, yeah. And I'm like,

shandin pete:

like, I'll talk like, the Go, go silent, yeah, the camera,

Aaron Brien:

the camera, and it just a big it says in letters and text on the screen, ceremony in progress. And then I think, man, I've been to a lot of pow wows, man. And I thought, what exactly could be happening that we can't see it?

shandin pete:

Yeah, yeah. Like, what? Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

It one time I was at a. I was in stand off. It was either Browning or standoff, but they were doing a war bonnet transfer, and the drum game I was singing for, they picked a handful of them to sing for this ceremony, yeah. And they the guys were like, come on, Aaron, sing with us. So I was like, alright, and they were filming it. And there was some discussion, I could it was, there was murmurs, hot murmur, yeah. They were like, Oh, should they be filming this? Blah, blah. Anyway, they did the ceremony. At the end, the guy who ran the ceremony announced, like, we I want them filming it. I want people filming these things. Yeah. People need to see these things. Yeah. Share, share what you filmed with your kids. Share. And he was like, going off. He was like, talking for a long time, yeah, and, and he, he said, so don't, don't think it's disrespectful. Yeah, yeah. And he made a good point. Actually, I'm, I'm think re living this. I forgot about it till we were talking. He even said it's probably better than anything else you're watching.

shandin pete:

Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

So I thought, well, yeah, that's a good point, you know, yeah, oh, I know where it was at. It was a war bonnet transfer at Northern quest Casino. So there was, like a conference, and I was in, oh, okay. Was invited to sing like a flag song, an honor song. So and they were doing this honoring for the late chairman, Carl Van. It was like some sort of tribal leaders thing, yeah, well, at that conference, a Blackfoot contingency transferred a war bonnet, like a ceremony there, yeah, at the conference, yeah. And then a group, a Blackfeet group, and myself, and kind of them sing, you know,

shandin pete:

yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a good that's good point, because there's so there's a, there's a connection, there's a connection there, between what would be considered sacred and those who, who are, who can, who can witness that to, I guess, verify or vouch that thing is indeed sacred, right? Unless you're talking about rarely, really very individual, individual practices. But even then, you know, you confer with someone. But largely, a lot of these things are public, semi public events, depending on the thing. But all those people are there because they're they are witness in important Yeah, and the witness is important, so why not cast it out worldwide, man, and you're getting the global audience of witnesses that would almost make it the sacredness and the power of it greater, right?

Aaron Brien:

I would think so.

shandin pete:

I mean, in a way, because then you can get lot of comment from from near and far, from people.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, would you rather have a group of Native people sitting around discussing someone posting a semi sacred ceremony on Facebook or YouTube, as opposed to discussing some reserves fighting outside of a gas station,

shandin pete:

yeah, right, but again, there's a limit to that, because some things

Aaron Brien:

are there is a limit. But again, there's a limit to everything, right? So limit like, yeah, we we could record me and Miranda running around the house and having fun, but we're not going to record an argument. Yeah, you know what I mean, I'm not going to record me disciplining my kids or getting mad at my kids for something they've done wrong, or correcting them for something, you know, like, I'm not going to record that, because not everything is for the public. I think it's, it's it's not a matter of something being sacred or something being unsacred. It has just to do with more what's public, what's for the public. Yeah, and what I'm seeing on social media is a lot of these ceremonies are things they're saying you shouldn't record they don't understand them themselves, because a lot of those are designed for the public, yeah, like with a war bonnet transfer that's for people to witness. So now we all are aware that person owns the right to that thing, and that's a big deal in some tribes, it's a big deal. On the public knows, you know,

shandin pete:

yeah, yeah, even like people who whistle. I mean, of course, that whistling of the drum is a modern thing, but it's, it's serving, it's serving a contemporary purpose, because they, they do it for a specific reason, and if given opportunity, they talk about why they did that. That makes it, I think it makes it even more significant, you know, yeah, because somebody gave me this and told me to do this, and they why did this for this particular reason?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and I don't think there's anything wrong with people filming that. And I think in that instance, you're right, like it it can actually even help it, you know? Yeah, yeah. I don't know all these people that are commenting about how things are sacred, and don't they all have Edward Curtis for photos in their house? You know? They all, they they've, they've all watched, they watch thunder heart and, like, they all watch documentaries about Indians. And it's, it's so it's weird to me. It's like, well, I don't know, man, yeah, I think, I think it's just, well, I

shandin pete:

think it's good. And I think it's good in one way, so long as, like, I said, it's internal, you know, oh oh yeah, yeah. Like, there's this new there was this, there's this new thing out where, where back home, people are wanting, or they proposed a new flag design

Aaron Brien:

for Oh yeah. CSI, I remember when those first, those discussions were first kind of, yeah. Well, I even remember seeing some of those first designs for that?

shandin pete:

Yeah, there's, there's, there was, there's a new one proposed out. It just came out the other day, and it caused this huge explosion of comment, you know, of course, and some people like it. Most people don't, but that's like an internal thing, you know. And I don't think there's one person who's, you know, somebody from North Carolina weighing in on what that design and what that ought to look like this, it's just not, not appropriate.

Aaron Brien:

I want to comment, yeah,

shandin pete:

yeah. I don't know anyway, that's what I wanted to talk about,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, I like it, but I also think like there's no right answer, yeah, yeah. I just think people need native. Native people in North America need to realize we're not Americans. Our culture is different. Yeah, this need to comment and voice opinion, and this idea of it is very American. Yeah, we're taught to respect people and their beliefs, and it's not my place, and it shouldn't be their place to think they should correct somebody and that particular instance and those discussions, if anything should be not filmed and not photographed and put out there in the public it's your comment. Those things should be those things just like the thing you're arguing about. Discussion can can be in some level, sacred without sounding cheesy, but those things should be done privately. Shut your mouth, yeah, just go to work. Yeah.

shandin pete:

Got a problem. If you got a problem, make the problem with that person, not with or

Aaron Brien:

don't, or just don't. Just turn to your wife, turn to your boyfriend, turn to your whoever you're sitting next to, and just be like, Man, that's crazy that they filmed that I wouldn't do that, and then change the channel or go to a different video. Like, all right, let's be done now.

shandin pete:

Okay, that's good. So levels of sacredness, that's interesting one. I'm gonna I'm gonna look into that more, but I think we talked about it a bit here, and it's pretty interesting. But yeah, must be done. Man, yeah, you're tired.

Aaron Brien:

I am tired. We're

shandin pete:

gonna be done. So you can put that muscle shirt back on. Go to bed,

Aaron Brien:

Right on, man, okay, all right, thanks for recording this fine episode with me,

shandin pete:

and it is a fine one. Yeah, you

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