#71 - Seven Generations Later: ChatGPT Arrives on Turtle Island and Asks, “Where’s the Red Road?”

0:00:00 Warm-Up Songs, Old Powwow Tapes & “Old Style” vs “Contemp”
0:09:00 Sweet Grass, Flying Eagle & The Sweet Spot of 80s–90s Singing
0:13:30 Copying Songs, Social Media Beadwork Beef & Who Owns a Melody?
0:18:10 “Walking the Red Road”: Black Elk, Recovery Culture & Pan-Indian Buzzwords
0:25:00 Medicine Wheel 101: Stone Circles, Four Quadrants & a 1970s Best-Seller
0:33:40 Turtle Island Origins: Sky Woman & Jesuit Records
0:41:45 Seven Generations: Great Law of Peace, Citation Trails & Slogan Inflation
0:51:30 Boozhoo or Bonjour? Ojibwe Greetings, Missionary Dictionaries & Folk Etymology
1:03:15 Apsáalooke vs. “Crow”: Large-Beaked Birds & Inside-Language
1:22:05 Pan-Indian Gospels: Medicine Wheels, Turtle Island & the Church of Activism

Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné). 

How to cite this episode (apa)
Pete, S. H. & Brien, A. (Hosts). (2026, March 26). #71 - Seven Generations Later: ChatGPT Arrives on Turtle Island and Asks, “Where’s the Red Road?” [Audio podcast episode]. In Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com

How to cite this podcast (apa)
Pete, S. H., & Brien, A. (Hosts). (2020–present). Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast [Audio podcast]. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com/

Podcast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
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Transcript

Shandin Pete: 0:00

That's been a while.

Aaron Brien: 0:01

Been a while. Been a hot minute.

Shandin Pete: 0:04

Where did that come from? Hot Minute?

Aaron Brien: 0:09

I don't know.

Shandin Pete: 0:10

That's like a microwave, right? Well, it depends. Like, it can like, if you zap a tortilla for one minute, that's pretty hot, that tortilla comes out pretty hot, but if you zap, like, I don't know, like a potato or some hash browns for a minute, for a minute, you'll get one side that's real hot, but the inside is cold.

Aaron Brien: 0:41

And who wants that,

Shandin Pete: 0:43

not this guy. You I'm gonna play this. Play this song here, old time. Song, now, want to see if you can tell me, if you can tell that the era comes from, can you hear it?

Aaron Brien: 1:40

Warm up song.

Shandin Pete: 1:59

Apparently it's mocks and flats. Remember when I used to do warm up songs?

Aaron Brien: 2:04

Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 2:05

yeah.

Aaron Brien: 2:12

I would say like the mid 80s.

Shandin Pete: 2:20

Yes, sir, yeah, I guess drum groups don't need to do warm up songs anymore, huh? Too practiced. I guess I used to like that. I remember 90s thing a song before everything started. Singing a song at dinner break, even after the power was over, sing a song you could just blast you didn't have to worry about nothing. Yeah, you got it though, man, this is sarsi Pow Wow, 1991

Aaron Brien: 3:14

like they're like Red Bull, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 3:19

yeah.

Aaron Brien: 3:20

And then, like, burst that whole influx of painted horse noon, noon Express. They're kind of like those, I don't know what you call them. In between, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 3:41

because it because it's part contemporary, part original style. It's not all the way contempt, but it's somewhat contempt

Aaron Brien: 3:54

the crew from that time that like that style of singing.

Shandin Pete: 4:03

And I'm not sure you name some of the, some of the ones that were like that,

Aaron Brien: 4:10

the heavy hitters,

Shandin Pete: 4:11

the heavy hitters, original style, but with the contemporary flair, or contemporary with an original sound. I don't know what you would describe it more, yeah, I don't know. I don't, I don't, either I don't.

Aaron Brien: 4:29

But it was, it seemed like it was born out of, like the the younger guys of of all them old original street crews and 80s,

Shandin Pete: 4:43

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 4:43

I all started their own little cruise and

Shandin Pete: 4:46

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 4:48

and then they kind of

Shandin Pete: 4:51

didn't want to sing the old way,

Aaron Brien: 4:54

yeah,

Shandin Pete: 4:54

something new.

Aaron Brien: 4:56

Yeah, that term old way is weird, huh? Like in singing? Yeah?

Shandin Pete: 5:00

Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 5:00

Because, really, what I think people are referring to is ego is so mandatory,

Shandin Pete: 5:07

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 5:07

sounding like them,

Shandin Pete: 5:09

yeah? Because

Aaron Brien: 5:09

really listen to, like, old recordings from the 30s and 20s and even the teens.

Shandin Pete: 5:15

Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 5:17

it's, it's not, that's not a thing. But I think, like Mandarin eagle was so became, like they traveled so much so, yeah, style people sound,

Shandin Pete: 5:31

yeah.

Aaron Brien: 5:31

And really, now, if you sing straight, that's, ultimately, that's what you're copying,

Shandin Pete: 5:37

yeah?

Aaron Brien: 5:38

Is that? Yeah, that sound. Then you had like little crews, like new like old agency and six Ramblers and,

Shandin Pete: 5:51

like you North buffalo, like

Aaron Brien: 5:58

noon Express, high noon. I'm just naming straight cruise. But really they're all kind of like,

Shandin Pete: 6:05

they're

Aaron Brien: 6:05

like, it's like, I don't know I singing about the other day because I heard somebody say that I'm gonna sing old style. And I'm like, I mean, in all reality, there isn't, like, an old style,

Shandin Pete: 6:19

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 6:21

there's, there's probably like, it's more like Song making, I think,

Shandin Pete: 6:30

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 6:31

a song, yeah, a song style. Because you can be a contemporary drum group and sing old songs, and I think people wouldn't even know, to be honest,

Shandin Pete: 6:45

like,

Aaron Brien: 6:45

you can be like, people wouldn't know, like, that's an old song, you know? Yeah, they went. Doesn't mean the style is old.

Shandin Pete: 6:59

You got to have a wicked role for it to be old style.

Aaron Brien: 7:07

Yeah, I think, I think we get too hung up on that stuff too. I was texting with John stiff farm the other day, and

Shandin Pete: 7:13

yeah, and

Aaron Brien: 7:13

I, I realized now that when it comes to singing, I don't even or when it comes to listening to music, like listening to power music, or any kind of Indian music, which I listen to a lot of it. I don't have a thing anymore with, like, contentment Street. I don't have this, like, weird hang up. I've heard a lot of songs that I like, man, yeah. Like, listening to my, like, clever med metal melodies,

Shandin Pete: 7:46

yeah, yeah. And

Aaron Brien: 7:48

I've heard a lot of quote, unquote, old style singing from some of the most respected drum groups, and they're not my it's like, I don't do it, man, then, but I prefer to sing straight,

Shandin Pete: 8:05

yeah, because it's easier. Remember, we had that conversation,

Aaron Brien: 8:08

it is easier.

Shandin Pete: 8:10

I mean, in a way, in a way,

Aaron Brien: 8:12

dear, I don't have to learn how to speak. Cree, you know, like I'm not crazy. So

Shandin Pete: 8:20

yeah, I

Aaron Brien: 8:21

don't have to butcher somebody else's language,

Shandin Pete: 8:24

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 8:25

to learn it. Plus,

Shandin Pete: 8:26

it seemed like that good contemporary songs are somewhat tricky, just inherently,

Aaron Brien: 8:33

it does seem that way, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 8:34

like the rhythm of the whatever. What are they called? This the vocables, or

Aaron Brien: 8:42

they're arranged. Arrangement is a little more different. It's different,

Shandin Pete: 8:45

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 8:46

it's exaggerated,

Shandin Pete: 8:48

yeah, but there's old there's some songs too that are also considered original style or old style in a way, that are also somewhat tricky in a way.

Aaron Brien: 9:00

Oh yeah. Are they? I'm the same too, like in that grass, then ceremony, that, what we call the daytime dance,

Shandin Pete: 9:08

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 9:09

the songs that are used for, like, the ceremonial part of it, man, they, they're real close.

Shandin Pete: 9:14

They're like,

Aaron Brien: 9:15

Oh, hard,

Shandin Pete: 9:17

man, but,

Aaron Brien: 9:21

yeah, but that style there that you played is probably to me, when it come from start to so let's say 1950 to 2025, that right there, is probably to me, the most balanced type of singing.

Shandin Pete: 9:37

The

Aaron Brien: 9:38

song composure was pretty cool. I liked

Shandin Pete: 9:41

it, yeah,

Aaron Brien: 9:43

the singing was still heavily influenced by the older generation,

Shandin Pete: 9:48

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 9:49

but it was kind of like venturing into this new thing. And it wasn't outrageous, you know? It wasn't like an outrageous form of singing. So it's almost sweet spot, you know?

Shandin Pete: 9:59

Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 10:00

I still listen to some of them, like sweet grass singers and flying eagle.

Shandin Pete: 10:07

Oh yeah,

Aaron Brien: 10:08

like that style of flying

Shandin Pete: 10:10

eagle is a good example of that. What you're talking about,

Aaron Brien: 10:13

man, they're like, don't I dig that, man, fact, you've inspired me. I think tonight that's kind of go on the old playlist.

Shandin Pete: 10:24

Dust off that old flying eagle tape.

Aaron Brien: 10:27

Yeah, flying eagle

Shandin Pete: 10:28

the rower in,

Aaron Brien: 10:30

yeah,

Shandin Pete: 10:32

yeah. This interesting, interesting, interesting, interesting thing about, about music, right? That looks ugly. What you doing there? Remember that show Wally, that little robot,

Aaron Brien: 10:55

yeah,

Shandin Pete: 10:56

and then he goes, gets to the ship where all the humans are. That's what those humans look like. What you're just doing,

Aaron Brien: 11:02

gross.

Shandin Pete: 11:03

They all got the big double chins and all that. Anyway, I was thinking about this music, you know, and how somewhat protective people used to be over songs that they'd sing in a public space. You know, we sort of had that conversation before, you know, people singing other people's songs, and that person would get mad about it, but they're singing it in a public space. So can they sing it anyway? I don't know. And then some people get mad. They say, well, that's, you know, particular song that we only sing for such and such thing. However, they're still singing it in the public place, such as a powwow, those kind of things that sort of, that idea of, was he going to play something? Oh, that idea of in on the picture. Oh, you know when, when people sort of, I don't know how you describe it, like scrape traditional stories or songs, or even like medicinal knowledge or cultural expressions, that's that's way more easier today because of the internet. Right? Yeah, like, you could Google up, you know, traditional story, and you could find one that you like and just start telling it. Or, you know, if you want to know something about, you know, some medicinal use of some plant of some tribe, pretty easy to search that up. And then I don't know if you want claim as your own. Yeah, you know that? Yeah, oh yeah. You also know that. You've seen this. We talked about it about people like copying each other, right? Like you see somebody with the cool design, some artwork, and say, Oh, I'm gonna, I want to do something like that. I want my beadwork to be like that. You seen these battles on social media about people, you know, claiming various things was theirs, even down to like color combinations, and these, those color combinations, are mine, you know, yeah. Or you probably heard of like, or we've talked about this, about like, someone who takes it upon themselves to learn the language of another tribe, and they're not of that tribe, or they're not even native at all, but they took the time to look up the language and learn it,

Aaron Brien: 13:49

yeah,

Shandin Pete: 13:50

instances of that, or like that, like those people over overseas in Germany and Czechoslovakia. Is that still a place Czechoslovakia? Is that place, or did he break up? I'm not up on my European politics, but so they had, they copied the style of Native Americans do their own powwows and make some pretty nice outfits, you know. And somewhere in between all that you can even have folks that sort of just make up. They start making things up like it's not what they're looking at is not really part of anything, any part of reality. They just start making things up like a good one. And I had to, I had to look this up real quick, because I, I was, I was chatting about it briefly, the term the Red Road.

Aaron Brien: 14:46

Oh yeah,

Shandin Pete: 14:47

here to that.

Aaron Brien: 14:48

Oh yeah,

Shandin Pete: 14:49

I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure out, what is this. Where does this come from? This, this? Because lot of natives like to say, I'm gonna get on the Red Road. Yeah, back on the red road. Gotta get on that. Gotta get on that red road.

Aaron Brien: 15:02

I lose. Gotta get on the red road

Shandin Pete: 15:04

you don't want it'll be on no blue Road,

Aaron Brien: 15:07

no

Shandin Pete: 15:07

that yellow road that you're talking about. What

Aaron Brien: 15:11

happened to Dorothy? She got on that?

Shandin Pete: 15:15

Did she get crushed by a house? Or was that

Aaron Brien: 15:18

Wicked Witch of the West?

Shandin Pete: 15:21

No relation

Aaron Brien: 15:22

of No relation. But you saw what she had to endure just to get herself home. You know, you go, you want to stay off that yellow, that yellow,

Shandin Pete: 15:33

yellow roads, a dangerous one. You want to be on that red run, that red road.

Aaron Brien: 15:37

You know,

Shandin Pete: 15:39

where that term comes from,

Aaron Brien: 15:40

where

Shandin Pete: 15:41

I'm curious what you know about it.

Aaron Brien: 15:44

I don't know. I see seems to have been popularized, probably during, like, the 70s, late 60s, like that.

Shandin Pete: 15:51

Seems like it ended

Aaron Brien: 15:52

activist time, but I don't know. I've never really given it much thought, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 15:57

well, I bet you could make, I mean, you got the era about right? But I bet you could guess sort of where, during the 70s, 70s, 80s, sort of where it sort of originated. I bet you can guess, because you're an educated man in these

Aaron Brien: 16:15

I

Shandin Pete: 16:15

know it is, but you got it. You got it.

Aaron Brien: 16:18

I'm not a gold thing fortune killer.

Shandin Pete: 16:20

Now just tell me, where do you think it came from?

Aaron Brien: 16:23

I say Southern California.

Shandin Pete: 16:26

Oh, I mean, that's a that is a good educated guess. But think about popular literature in the 70s and 80s.

Aaron Brien: 16:38

Vine Deloria.

Shandin Pete: 16:40

Pretty close, man, pretty close.

Aaron Brien: 16:42

Mama day,

Shandin Pete: 16:44

ah, no, but it's right down, right along those lines. Wilma,

Aaron Brien: 16:49

man,

Shandin Pete: 16:53

you're naming all the good ones. Yeah. Oh, apparently. And I don't know how true this is, but the phrase became more widely known through the English language publication about Lakota spirituality, particularly originating in a book that You probably can guess the title of right now. But Black,

Aaron Brien: 17:24

Black Elk Speaks,

Shandin Pete: 17:25

yeah, yeah. Man, apparently, apparently, there's a, well, you know, that was translated by a guy I don't know much about, yeah. I don't know much about the guy. If he was native, non native. John Neihardt. Is that the guy's Yeah, was he? Was he a native dude or not?

Aaron Brien: 17:45

I don't think so. No,

Shandin Pete: 17:47

no. I think he was just a standard fella ethnographer, I suppose. But anyway, in his, in his translation of what, apparently, what Black Elk was saying he was talking about the sacred directions and the spiritual life, etc, and referencing a good Red Road, yeah, then apparently that became highly influential there in the 70s and up into the 90s or addiction recovery, what

Aaron Brien: 18:25

red and reference to what?

Shandin Pete: 18:28

Yeah, you know, I don't know. I do not that one. I don't know.

Aaron Brien: 18:31

I don't think native people identify themselves as red. So No, firstly, then, and

Shandin Pete: 18:37

no, I'm not, yeah, I'm not sure. I think let's see. I'm just reading from some things. I wrote down some explanations connect the red road to the north south axes of the Sacred Hoop or the Medicine Wheel contrasted with the black road or the destructive path.

Aaron Brien: 18:58

Whoa, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 18:59

that's some, that's some heavy interpretation, just like what I was telling you earlier about, you know, people sort of grabbing things here and there. Yeah, together. So that became a popular an addiction recovery, a new age appropriation of indigenous spirituality, walking the red road. But, I mean, people use it. People use it

Aaron Brien: 19:23

quite often. I would say,

Shandin Pete: 19:25

yeah. I mean, it's not like, it's bad, but knowing the origin is important. Indian people use this term, right?

Aaron Brien: 19:35

I've heard some Indian people use the term,

Shandin Pete: 19:38

yes, yes. I have

Aaron Brien: 19:39

a stereotype. But my experience, it seemed to be people who had gone through like, some level of either incarceration or, like, rehab or treatment.

Shandin Pete: 19:52

Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 19:53

so, so I can see that now I'm speaking real general, but

Shandin Pete: 19:57

yeah, yeah. Well. Variety movement,

Aaron Brien: 20:01

the wild variety movement, yes,

Shandin Pete: 20:03

yeah, yeah. But you know, and I don't know how dangerous this is, but some people might say, well, that sort of dangerous, because if you fail to recognize sort of the indigenous origin of that you might harm, or might create this harm by creating a pan indigenous identity and people. And we know we've seen that right. We see the we see the results of our own people, not quite grasping the origin of things and misappropriating ceremonialism, misappropriating all, all number of things. Yeah, yeah. Well, um, I was reading. I was reading some things from these key dangers of artificial intelligence concerning indigenous data, all those sort of points I made was some people say these are the dangers of using AI with indigenous data, the danger of taking traditional stories of medicinal knowledge, cultural expressions from the internet without consent, I guess, violating copyright by mimicking artwork, misappropriating, learning, languages, all those things that people have already done without AI, right? Agreed,

Aaron Brien: 21:51

agreed,

Shandin Pete: 21:52

agreed. Yeah, people have already done these things without AI even being involved, and we've seen that happen.

Aaron Brien: 22:01

We've freely given it to the people too. So it's not like,

Shandin Pete: 22:05

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 22:06

you know, I don't Yeah. Anyway, go ahead. Sorry. No,

Shandin Pete: 22:10

no, I No. I'm trying to get you to I'm trying to wind you up here.

Aaron Brien: 22:14

Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 22:15

I'm going somewhere with this.

Aaron Brien: 22:16

I'm waiting. Come on, bud.

Shandin Pete: 22:21

I'm going somewhere with this. So I thought, I thought, Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna dive into this AI thing and just sort of see, see what it does. You know, yeah, and one of the products is one of the products, or one of the, one of the things I investigated with AI was where this term red road comes from? Yeah, it's just a simple question. I didn't do a whole lot of editing of any prompts and AI. All I just simply said was, hey, where does in the indigenous term Red Road come from? And that sort of gave me what I think at least is a pretty accurate description, similar to what you just said, or what you, you know, you sort of could pick the era. You could sort of flush out that, oh, it comes from, like, addiction recovery and people sort of, you know, trying to get back on the right way. And then, of course, the it explains some of the dangers of of the of the pan indigenous constructs making their way to identity. So I got super curious man, and I thought, okay, look up some more things you fall asleep. No, okay, listen, because this

Aaron Brien: 23:40

is deeply listening

Shandin Pete: 23:41

now, now, well now, you could probably guess what Another common thing that is floating around in Indian country that might be another good one to sort of investigate, right?

Aaron Brien: 24:03

Yeah. Are you asking me? Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 24:04

I'm asking you, what, what like, what? What do you think I would have? What do you think I should look up next? Because I've done this already

Aaron Brien: 24:11

with, oh, oh, okay, okay,

Shandin Pete: 24:13

so I looked up Red Road,

Aaron Brien: 24:15

yeah,

Shandin Pete: 24:16

what are the what are these other good ones that seem like they're not quite anchored to something correctly, and then see if AI can sort of figure that out somewhere, sort of No, like a real, a real, think about it for a second. I'll go through this other one, and we'll see what, what came up, like the Medicine Wheel,

Aaron Brien: 24:38

yeah. I mean, that was kind of the first thing came into my mind,

Shandin Pete: 24:40

yeah, yeah, the four quadrant medicine wheel. So I, I went to AI, and I said, Hey, man, what's the origin of the medicine wheel? And, man, you know what? It spit out this long, long text about about the medicine wheel, and it says, it. It. This is what it actually says. It says, I'll answer this carefully, because medicine wheel can refer to both ancient plains, stone structures and new pan, indigenous teaching diagram, and those origins are often blurred. That seemed fairly, fairly accurate.

Aaron Brien: 25:20

I would agree with it seems

Shandin Pete: 25:21

sort of like a cautious statement saying, Okay, well, I don't know, really know what you mean by medicine wheel, but here's, here's two ways we could go. And then it goes on to this longer explanation about the origin of the medicine wheel is not singular. It depends on whether you mean the ancient stone features on the planes, or the English term medicine wheel, which is now commonly known as the four directions teaching diagram. That seems pretty accurate, right?

Aaron Brien: 25:49

Yep.

Shandin Pete: 25:50

Okay, and I'm not sure if, if these, like the dangerous things that about AI, is been enacted yet, right? Because we're not telling it anything that's not publicly available and sort of fuzzy, right? Yeah, I don't know what I'd ask it that sort of was would be a violation of any of those things, anyway, anyway. So the next paragraph goes on to say some pretty detailed things about the stone, those stone wheels, you know, the stone arrangements, especially the ones like in Wyoming, Montana, South Dakota, sort of lower Saskatchewan and Alberta. And throws out few numbers about numbers of documented wheels, all that business. And then it goes to explain two major ones. I didn't know about this one. It's a major Ville in southern Alberta, Alberta. Did you ever hear that one? What is that one about?

Aaron Brien: 26:54

What's it about? What

Shandin Pete: 26:55

is it about? It's just this. It's what it what it what I think it is like an arrangement of stones in a wheel

Aaron Brien: 27:05

with

Shandin Pete: 27:05

radiating spokes. It

Aaron Brien: 27:07

kind of has a big, bigger like rock Caron in the middle of it, the major building one, but it's pretty big.

Shandin Pete: 27:12

Yeah, yeah. Then it goes on to talk about one you're familiar, might be more familiar with the Big Horn Medicine Wheel.

Aaron Brien: 27:20

Oh, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 27:20

yeah. Apparently that one's, uh, apparently this is what it says. It's over 7000 years old, or nearly 7000 years old. Been around for quite a while,

Aaron Brien: 27:33

quite a while, quite some time.

Shandin Pete: 27:36

Okay, then it starts going into the sort of this teaching diagram, and it says some pretty important things that are sort of in debate. I don't know if how much debate there is about them. It seems pretty established, but some people push back on it, right

Aaron Brien: 27:54

about exactly about what part about

Shandin Pete: 27:57

the four quadrant, Medicine Wheel, you know, meaning the spiritual, physical, mental, spiritual domains that that that version of it, and it documents that the earliest circulated source of that particular type of medicine, wheel as this, this dude, last Name of storm in a book called Seven arrows, where, apparently he took elements of many indigenous ideas and conceptualized that four quadrant, four color medicine wheel that you see prominent across Indian country today. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's what it said. I mean, seemed pretty accurate, far as I know.

Aaron Brien: 28:49

Yeah, I would say that nothing in that statement I would like totally disagree with or

Shandin Pete: 28:54

Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 28:55

argue with, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 28:58

but

Aaron Brien: 28:58

appreciate for IT stuff, um, it's funny to me that the medicine will is still like, this controversial topic, though, like,

Shandin Pete: 29:06

oh yeah,

Aaron Brien: 29:07

argue about it. And it's like, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 29:12

it makes sense, if you've been taught something for you know, a few generations in your family as something being sort of entrenched in the cultural beliefs, and then that's sort of, you're facing sort of this higher order evidence that says, Oh yeah, that's, apparently, that's not exactly accurate, that can sort of eat at the, eat at A person's ego or their, you know, your, your, your your personal beliefs that you don't want to let go.

Aaron Brien: 29:46

Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 29:47

I can see the resistance anyway, that for a second. Now, what do you think? What's What's the next one? There's nothing. The one that we talk about a lot, that I get, the real controversial one here, because I'm getting like, I'm getting outside of my, my comfort zone. But there's the one that we joke about quite often. It's a bit of a joke.

Aaron Brien: 30:18

Don't, don't make me guess,

Shandin Pete: 30:19

no, okay, I want to see, because it's in you. It's in you. You're just not there yet. You haven't turned the furnace on. You need to throw a log on that fire partner, because it's there. Think of the major tropes, if you will, or the these, these things that just seem like overused and indigenous everything, man, you know what it is. Ends with the island. Starts with a turtle.

Aaron Brien: 30:51

Oh, yeah, Turtle Island.

Shandin Pete: 30:58

Now, did we have we talked about this one yet.

Aaron Brien: 31:01

I mean, I don't know if we've, we've ever fully dived into it, but I think we've, we've made references to tribal Island quite a bit.

Shandin Pete: 31:10

We've laughed about it.

Aaron Brien: 31:12

So are you gonna, are you gonna punch that into the

Shandin Pete: 31:15

No, I already did. Man, I punched it in. Well, see, I looked this up. I So, I so most of these, I had already researched outside of AI to see what I could find so that this over the past, I don't know, couple decades, just collecting materials, just to see what, where the origin of these things. And I just want to see, well, how does AI handle it? And sort of produces the same evidence that I came up with this one, very similar. So the first thing it says, I said, Okay, now do the same for Turtle Island. That's all I told AI. So I said, Tell me about the medicine wheel. I gave it like one other prompt. I said, What's the earliest source that cites the more familiar Ford color, four dimensions, teaching wheel. And then it gave me the breakdown of the year, of things, where things occurred, and how it's been sort of Pan indigenized. Then I said, Okay, now do the same thing for Turtle Island. Then again, AI said, here's the distinction, or here the distinction matters even more. And it says the Turtle Island story is much older than its appearance in print, and the modern English phrase Turtle Island is not always present in the earliest written record. Now that's important. That is important because I noted, I noted that too in my outside of AI research is that the term Turtle Island, those two words together, don't often appear in the sources that it's cited in which it originates. So then it gives me a little handy table. And so the first source it can find where Turtle Island, not necessarily in the in that particular context, is mentioned. And it's a 1636, published volume called Jesuit relations, so material from the Hurons. And of course, it talks about, you know, the sky woman falls story. You know that that's sort of a common, a common storyline among many indigenous people, right? Some lady go gets stolen or gets transported up into the sky world because she wanted a star for a husband. Do you guys have that similar story or something, something along that lines, where someone gets, goes up into the sky world, and then they had to escape, or they,

Aaron Brien: 33:51

yeah, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 33:52

yeah. Something's like, maybe not a woman, maybe not

Aaron Brien: 33:55

similar story,

Shandin Pete: 33:56

yeah, kind of a that storyline.

Aaron Brien: 33:59

Grandmother's grand College, Barbados College, Barbara, a grandmother's grandchild,

Shandin Pete: 34:05

yeah, kind of goes up into the stars and then makes their way back in some manner,

Aaron Brien: 34:09

yeah, pull the turnip.

Shandin Pete: 34:13

Yeah. That's the hole to get back or they see where, yeah. So that that story is referenced in here. Sky woman falls that then it says, The turtle directs animals to bring soil from the bottom and put it on their back, put the soil on the back of the turtle, and it makes an island. It doesn't say and then Turtle Island was born, but it just says, That's how then they made the land that

Aaron Brien: 34:43

was, again, which tribe is that?

Shandin Pete: 34:45

Huron Wendat

Aaron Brien: 34:47

Iran, the Huron Hurons. Oh, herons,

Shandin Pete: 34:52

yeah. So

Aaron Brien: 34:53

according to chat GTP, that's like the closest historical

Shandin Pete: 34:59

early. Easiest written record, yeah, earliest written record, not of the phrase Turtle Island, but the story that narrates what I just said. You know, a turtle puts an animal, puts some soil on its back, and creates this island that the sky woman lives on, or something like that. Then it goes through some of the same things, but then it starts going up into time, like 1680, you find it again in another the same story, 1827, same story, but again, not saying Turtle Island. It's saying place soil on a turtle's back to make an island. 1904 same story, 1906 it's not until 1974 where there's actually the story is called Turtle Island. So it becomes, apparently, according to chat, GPT becomes popularized, major popularization of Turtle Island as an English name for the continent, in which this guy, Gary Snyder, 1974 describes it as an old slash new name for the continent based on indigenous creation stories and recently reapplied to North America. Yeah, so for some reason, again, just like the Red Road, just like the medicine wheel, the 1970s had this sort of explosion of these weird i don't know if they're weird. I shouldn't say weird, but conceptual, conceptualization of these things makes

Aaron Brien: 36:45

sense that time that the 70s are that, can I get it?

Shandin Pete: 36:50

Yeah, because, what? Because what was happening there in the 70s, we all sort of know,

Aaron Brien: 36:55

yeah,

Shandin Pete: 36:56

cultural revival, you know, after a long, long period of loss, probably like multi generational loss, and then people sort of trying to revive and probably through media books, those kind of things, you know, yeah? So it makes a lot of sense those things

Aaron Brien: 37:18

are media books

Shandin Pete: 37:19

all lining up, yeah. Now I don't know if this is exciting or to you, but I thought it was really interesting. I thought it was really interesting.

Aaron Brien: 37:32

Controversial one.

Shandin Pete: 37:33

Oh, I'm getting there.

Aaron Brien: 37:35

Oh, yeah, I've been waiting for that.

Shandin Pete: 37:37

Okay, well, I got to go through one more because, well, that's one. Let's see one. Yeah, yeah, one more. Let's do one more. And this one's more, I think, more recent sort of, sort of taken off more recently, we joked about it here on a podcast. No, no. I want to make you guess again. Think of your list, your go to funnies, your go to hahas, you're going to get this one, I know it. We got Turtle Island out of the way. We got

Aaron Brien: 38:12

red road.

Shandin Pete: 38:12

We got the red road. We got the medicine wheel. You got it? Dig deep. Mean, ribbon skirts, no, no, no, that, no, I didn't do ribbon skirts. Peace

Aaron Brien: 38:27

pipe.

Shandin Pete: 38:28

Peace pipe. I haven't done that one, but I have done that not a non AI search on the Talking Circle. And again, that comes up in the 70s. Yeah, yeah. It's sort of a bastardization of some ceremonial process, but, yeah, but I didn't do the AI version now, but this one is no seven generations.

Aaron Brien: 38:56

Oh, seven generations. Yeah, that settle. That cited a lot now, but,

Shandin Pete: 39:00

oh, man, a lot, a lot.

Aaron Brien: 39:03

Let me take a stab at it. From what I remember, yeah, the northeast, like Senecas, you're in the

Shandin Pete: 39:11

ballpark, yeah. I mean, you're in a ballpark, yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien: 39:18

Let's do it,

Shandin Pete: 39:19

yeah. Oddly, I mean, some of my non AI research, you know, the there's this sort of reoccurring theme of, like, seven generation, not in the terms of which is talked of today, but like in the Bible, there's reference to seven generations of something in like the some Jewish scripture, there's this reference to seven generations of something. Even in, like in Hindu religion, there's this reference to seven generations of something. And it's it sort of makes sense, because in like, a lot of languages like you track like the. Languages track familial familiarity, familial closeness through generations, right via these names, like, like in this like in Salish, there's like six, there's six familial generations after it's you get to the seven, you're not related no more, if cruel languages have that sort of same

Aaron Brien: 40:26

Well, I've never looked at it, you know.

Shandin Pete: 40:28

Yeah. Well, homework for you look at it.

Aaron Brien: 40:31

Yeah.

Shandin Pete: 40:32

Anyway, okay, let's go through this. So here's what I asked, here's what I asked, chat, GPT, and this one's then they were going to get to this one. Okay? I said, Okay, now do the same for the seven generations concept popularized in recent indigenous scholarship. Now chat. GPT is pretty careful. It says, Okay, I'll treat seven generations like the previous two, meaning older nation specific political or ethical teachings on one side, and more recent, generalized sustainability, indigenous scholarship, citation patterns on the other. And it says one useful pattern is already visible, the specific phrase, seven generations becomes very visible in what year you can probably guess already, 1968 Yeah, 1970s through the 1990s

Aaron Brien: 41:31

Okay, you just listed a bunch of year period. He said,

Shandin Pete: 41:46

Yeah, my hosting skills are

Aaron Brien: 41:51

okay. Yeah, you're wrong, yeah. And

Shandin Pete: 41:55

it says, While, the great see, while the older, great law wording in English is the more is more about coming generations and the unborn. So chat, chat GPT said the phrase seven generations more prominent in 70s through the 1990s and then sort of the con the concept of seven generations originates from this thing that they're calling the great law, wording which is translated in English, which is more about the coming generations and the unborn. It says the origin trail for seven generations looks like this. It says it's strongly associated with the Haudenosaunee Iroquois governance, especially the great law of peace. But the exact popular formula, meaning considering the impact of the next center, seven generations, is easier to document in the late 20th century, indigenous, political, environmental and educational writing. Then it is in the earliest English transcriptions of the great law. In other words, just like the Turtle Island story, it's not said like it is today. Now, I'm not Haudenosaunee. I can't make claims that this is accurate or correct, because it is chat GPT, but it's sort of been on par with sort of things I know, and the non AI research I did on this sort of lines up, right? So the earliest date, or the source, they say, is this great law piece from Haudenosaunee oral traditions, and it says what it shows without giving a date, it says contemporary Haudenosaunee and Onondaga sources describe seven generations as a core governance value. Chiefs consider the impact of present decisions on descendants of those not yet born. The Onondaga nation states that chiefs are responsible to look forward seven generations to future decision making. Now it's going to give me some dates, some specific dates where this is documented. So 1916 Arthur C Parker, I'm not sure who that is, the five in the book that this person apparently authored by the Constitution of the five nations, nations, or the Iroquois book of the great law. Man, I barely read that. And what this says is, this is one of the key early English prints of the great law. It does not give the modern slogan exactly, but it does instruct leaders to keep quote the coming generations and the unborn of future nations in view, not seven generations, but coming generations and future unborn. It ain't until 1977 in a pamphlet called. Called seven generation funds for indigenous people comes out where the early institutionalization of seven generations is popularized in this organization, where they say that, yes, this, this seven generations. Idea is founded in the great law of peace. And then in 1980 old Oren Lyons, who is Iroquois, I believe.

Aaron Brien: 45:30

Well, I think he's holding the shown me,

Shandin Pete: 45:33

yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah. Anyway, he writes a piece called an Iroquois perspective in issue called the American Indian environment, ecological issues and Native American history. This is apparently one of the strongest earlier printed versions of the explicit source of seven generations. So he specifically says, Warren Lyon says in one of his chapters lions, let's see on making decisions, quote, welfare and the well being of the seven generations to come. Yeah, and then it goes on to into the 90s, to 2000s all the way up to now, where scholarship describes seven generations thinking as being inspired by Haudenosaunee philosophy with variance, that it means actually three generations back to present into three generations forward, or oftentimes seven generations in the future. Oh, yeah. So that's um, I don't know. I don't know. Like I said, I I don't know. I'm not claiming to know for sure, just presenting the facts of what chat GPT,

Aaron Brien: 46:50

yeah. As far as chat GTP,

Shandin Pete: 46:53

yeah. And it lines up with what I found in my my prior to chat GPT research. Same thing. I looked up this, this con, this

Aaron Brien: 47:04

two

Shandin Pete: 47:05

what

Aaron Brien: 47:06

I think we we towards the end of an episode or something.

Shandin Pete: 47:11

Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 47:12

in the past, we talk a little bit about this and and it's weird in my mind when, when I hear what I've always heard, the seven generations thing I never did in my brain think of it like, seven generations in the future. I always thought of it like, like, you're in the middle, yeah, and there's three generations in the past, three in the in the front. So like,

Shandin Pete: 47:37

yeah.

Aaron Brien: 47:38

I think for any person to be kind of like centered. You have to know the past and you have to be ready for the future. Yeah. That's how my brain always did it, yeah. And I know like, it was kind of pushed. It was kind of pushed in some of these tribal colleges and stuff.

Shandin Pete: 47:57

Oh yeah, oh yeah. Heavily

Aaron Brien: 48:00

there was that in the the medicine wheel thing was, like, it seems, I'm wondering now if, in the education system, if they're still kind of pushing those things, you know,

Shandin Pete: 48:15

I don't know. I'd be curious to know. Well, you know, like, sort of the instructors of of of the era when we were in college were, of course, highly influenced by that, you know, 1970s 60s, era of cultural revitalization and popular books and media. So it makes a lot of sense, but I don't know. I would hope that there's sort of critical thought on these things and that they're sort of being challenged and looked into more now that we have more access to archival material resources, besides what you can just check out in a library these days. Yeah. So anyway, before I, before I get to the last one that I think is like, I'm way I'm way out of, I'm way out of my league here. But I was so curious about this one, so I just I asked chat GPT, because I was curious what they thought was chat GPT. Are they them or thine? Thou, thine. I What chat GPT is? I asked it, what are some other similar, often generalized, Pan indigenous principles that seem to lack specificity and sources they can be attached to. And so chat GPT says, I'm okay. I'm going to keep the same critical frame that these ideas are fake, but these ideas are often detached from specific nations, languages, text, teachings or political history. And it says, Oh yeah, there's several, several concepts circulating in recent Indigenous Studies, education, sustainability, sustainability, health, data, sovereignty, right? Things that are broadly indigenous, when they often need more careful source trailing here's here's their list. Relationality, everything is related needs a better source. Relational accountability, yeah, kind of flimsy reciprocity, respect and responsibility the four Rs or the six RS or whatever the whatever you have you holism and interrelatedness, all my relations, two eyed, seeing land as teacher or land as pedagogy, storytelling as indigenous methodology. First, first, people's principles of learning. It's like it's, it's Hayden. GPT is Hayden on us, OCAP and indigenous data, sovereignty and care principles says this says the these are the highest risk generalized phrases. And it has, I mean, from the list, it says indigenous knowledge is holistic. Indigenous people see everything as connected. Indigenous science is based on reciprocity. The land is the teacher. Knowledge is not owned. Story is methodology. We must think seven generations ahead and indigenous and western knowledge should be braided or two eyed. Chad GPT is throwing shade.

Aaron Brien: 51:35

I like it, yeah.

Shandin Pete: 51:40

I mean, so we talk about these things, though, right? We sort of joke about them. We, I mean, we sort of flesh these out, but not maybe we don't go like, you know, have the source Trail and the timeline of those kind of things, but we probably do, honestly, maybe on our own time. I know I do. I don't know what you do, but that's what I do. But anyway, so those seem all reasonable, right? When I say those like you don't say, Well, why? Why that? Why that? Right? You think, oh yeah, it makes total sense. Yeah, yeah. All right, okay, I'm kind of put myself out there in this one.

Aaron Brien: 52:17

Okay, I'm

Shandin Pete: 52:17

gonna make some people mad.

Aaron Brien: 52:19

All right, but

Shandin Pete: 52:20

I want to, I want to preface this by saying, first of all, I'm not of this tribe. I'm going to be speaking of, nor do I speak the language of this tribe. But I've always been curious about this particular phrase, or this, this greeting that a particular language uses that sounds borrowed, you know, I'm talking about, think about again, the same area, sort of the Midwest, the Northeast. Oh, huh, no, no, oh no, no, bonjour.

Aaron Brien: 53:07

Oh, boujou, yeah, man, I don't want to be a hater, man, but to me, that sounds like French. Man,

Shandin Pete: 53:15

I said the same thing. And I asked, I asked some, some Ojibwe people that I know,

Aaron Brien: 53:20

yeah.

Shandin Pete: 53:21

And they said, No, it's not. There's a story about it, and I'm not going to argue with them. Course, I would not do that, you know. But I'm still curious, though. I'm still curious because, as we've seen from the examples I've already given, where things that have become entrenched in belief and even the highest order evidence can dislodge those like they're so stuck, you know. And I think I wonder if this is one of those things. And like I said, I don't, I don't know. I'm getting sort of uncomfortable talking about it, but I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna put it out there for the listener, for the podcast. This might be our last episode. No, not that bad. Okay, so this is what I did.

Aaron Brien: 54:08

Okay,

Shandin Pete: 54:09

I'm gonna, I'm gonna read you the prompts that I gave chat GPT because I'm curious. Now this one I sort of did, did some initial research prior to chat GPT, but not, not to any extent. This is just so I said, in the Ojibwe language, a common greeting is Bonjour, which sounds remarkably similar to Bonjour in French. Search for any source that might confirm this, but please avoid hallucinations. Now I learned a little bit about AI that it sort of makes things up. It's sort of like, like a little kid, you know, it wants to please you, so if it doesn't know, it'll make things up to take place in things that it doesn't know. So you have to be. You have to really give it some detailed prompts, and you have to re prompt and re prompt until you're sure that you're getting a non made up answer, or a hallucination, as they call them. So I said avoid hallucinations right up front. And so it said, I'll check this carefully from language sources, rather than relying on folk etymology. I'll separate documented origin from possible contact era resemblance. And it thought for about 20 seconds. This is what it said. It said I found no solid source confirming that the Ojibwe Bonjour comes from French Bonjour. The better supported conclusion is the resemblance is the resemblance is noticed often, but the French origin claim is disputed and likely folk etymology. So then it gives some of the key findings. The Ojibwe people's dictionary simply defines Bojo as a greeting, hello, without deriving it from French. This is the one so I had to investigate more. But then it says a common Anishinaabe explanation is that Bonjour is connected to not a Bonjour, or when Bonjour a cultural trickster, hero figure, some sources explicitly reject the Bonjour theory. Saying the word predates French contact, then it gives a concluding statement. Although bourgeois sounds similar to French Bonjour, it did not find I did not find reliable linguistic evidence confirming that it derived from French the stronger community based explanation connects it to Nana borgeau, while some References Sources leave the etymology unresolved. So I thought, all right, all right, that's cool, man, I'm going to do a follow up, because I want to see the data that it's pulling. So I said, this is my prompt. What are the earliest documented descriptions of this word and its origins? Now, this is where it gets good. That's where it gets good. You're waiting for it. I could tell you, you kind of had a bit of a smile. Your mouth turned. It turned. It turned.

Aaron Brien: 57:17

I'm excited. I was like, I need, I need this. Come on.

Shandin Pete: 57:23

You need it, okay, okay, I said that. Then it says, I'll look for the oldest attestation in dictionaries, missionary grammars and ethnographic sources. Then distinguish first written use from later origin stories. This one took a bit longer. It thought for 40 seconds. This is what it said. The earliest clue, or the earliest clear source I found, is Frederick Vargas, 1853 dictionary of Ojibwe language. He records Bojo, good day and in parentheses, he puts French and Bonjour. And then further, has another entry called Bojo, which means I bid him good day. And it follows up by saying, and it gives me the source. I can click on it and go to the Internet Archive, where I can find the full text of this dictionary and see this entry. So I looked it up and seen the entry. It says, so the earliest documented origin claim I found actually does connect it to French Bonjour, at least in the bargas missionary dictionary framing. But then it goes on and says, but later sources complicate this in 1903 a concise Ojibwe Dictionary gives bourgeois as farewell, good day and goodbye, but does not explain its origin. And then contemporary Ojibwe sources define Bonjour simply as a hello greeting without French derivation. And then modern explanation, Anishinaabe explanations often derive it from the Nana bourgeois, which is their trickster. But sources I found for that explanation are much later and our community are public facing and not early dictionary evidence. So then it makes this conclusion. Says, bottom line, the earliest documented description I found supports the French Bonjour connection, but that does not prove the word originated in that way. It shows that by 1853 Varga understood and glossed Bonjour as French Bonjour, later, indigenous explanations connected instead to Nana Bourgeois. But I did not find an early 19th century source documenting that origin. I don't know man, so then I I want to follow up again. And I said, are there other arc? Tribal sources that explain early use of this word. So it says, I'll broaden my search and look for more. And then it finds, gives me a list of the same dictionary, a dictionary from the early night. This is a new one, early dictionary from the 19th century, which describes the chip away, chip away in greeting of Bonjour, bonjour and Bonjour with handshaking. And explicitly, explicitly says it's a corruption of the French Bonjour. And then in 1886 Jean Andre somebody. He provides a French Dictionary of the Algonquin language and gives bourgeois as a borrowed French word, bonjour. So anyway, then it goes on to start to name the earlier ones. Then it says, modern scholars, a modern scholar, a modern scholarly presentation of a chief. Pennessi Odawa, narrative glasses, bourgeo nijin, I don't know how to read these, and states that it states in a footnote that Bonjour was adopted, adapt, adopted from Bonjour. This is not early archival proof, but it shows French borrowing explanations persisting in some scholarly notation. So I wanted to know about this other thing, though, right? Like, apparently, the story, as it goes now, is that people say that there was a phrase gin and non Nana borgeau. I probably not saying it, right, but it says, Are you Nana Bourgeois? Essentially saying that this, their Trickster is going to come back one day, and, you know, that's that sort of theme. And a lot of stories is there's going to come back and fix things up, or take people back to where they originally going to go. So then people are saying that that phrase, are you Nana bourgeois, was later shortened to Bonjour, bonjour. Or, you know how they say it today. That's sort of the modern version of it. And so I asked it, what's the earliest reference of Bonjour as being explained by the connection to Nana bourgeoy? And they said, Didn't it. Didn't find anything in an archival material. But in 2000 2013 in an internet page, it found that source, I don't know. Man, I don't know. I was curious. That's what I found. I'm not going to say Chad GPT is correct here, but it provides some compelling evidence.

Aaron Brien: 1:03:02

Well, here, let's do this, then let's do this as a comparison to kind of give it some sense,

Shandin Pete: 1:03:09

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:03:09

ask it what the like the traditional name of the Crow tribe is,

Shandin Pete: 1:03:15

okay, if

Aaron Brien: 1:03:17

it's fairly accurate to what we know as crows. Maybe it gives us a sense of what chat GPT is doing. Obviously, that depends on what published records are out there, but let's just try it.

Shandin Pete: 1:03:31

Okay, so what is the traditional name the Crow tribe in Montana. See what it says. Thinking, I'll ground this in tribal affiliated sources where possible, since names and translations can get flattened in common summaries thought for about four more seconds, the traditional self name of the Crow tribe in Montana is absaloga, which is often written without dia critics as absoluki. Yeah, you know, it is commonly translated as children of the large beak bird, or descendants of the large beak bird. The English name crow comes from a later mistranslation or simplification of that name Montana's tribal nation, direct, directly gives absaloga As the name, and it says it means children of the large beak bird. A slightly more careful phrasing would be the people commonly known in English as the Crow tribe. Traditionally called themselves absaloga children, or descendants of the large beak bird. The identity of that bird is sometimes explained as Raven, crow or Thunderbird, depending on the source and interpretation. Further, the Crow tribe is the fej recognized political name absaloga is the traditional. Make name, yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:05:05

now ask it, okay, what the oldest references to that name in the literature are? You know, same thing about the booze, though.

Shandin Pete: 1:05:16

Okay. Do okay, what is the oldest archival or accessible reference to this word origin? See what it says. I'm looking for the earliest, accessible documentary trail, separating earliest use of the name from earliest explanation or its origin. Since those are not always the same, it's thinking it actually shows me where it's looking. We looked@walmart.com Yeah. It just flashes some of the some of the pages, looking at Facebook, vintage news, Pinterest, archives.org, crow society.com, Wikipedia. It had a whole bunch. Okay, then it's sort of, it's narrating what it's doing, but I can't read it fast enough, because this is going by real fast. It says, I think I need to cite Hodges. I need to went by it too fast. So here's what it said at the 47 seconds. It said, the oldest accessible reference I can verify so far for the name origin translation is the Bureau of American Ethnology. Hodges, Handbook of American Indian in North Indians, north of Mexico, entry for Crow Indians, first published in 1907 that entry gives the the older spelling, A, B, S, A, R, O, k, e, absorky. You know that one absorb ABS Okay, and it says Crow Indians through French gens de Corbell, I don't know. I can't speak French to that of their name, absaloga, crow, sparrow hawk or bird people. So the earliest variable, verifiable printed explanation I found is not yet the modern phrasing children of the large beak bird, but rather Crow, sparrow hawk or bird people. A later Jesuit historical volume, citing Hodges repeats essentially the same explanation, the crow is a translation through the French of their own name, absaloga Crow, sparrow hawk, or bird people, then it sort of gives a breakdown of something it says a useful distinction. Earliest possible European references in 1742, the lavender expedition, familiar with that?

Aaron Brien: 1:08:04

Yep, those brothers.

Shandin Pete: 1:08:05

How do you say that lavender? I

Aaron Brien: 1:08:08

think it's lavender or something. Yeah.

Shandin Pete: 1:08:10

La Verendrye, the that expedition, anyway, likely encountered people later identified by some scholars as the crow or the absaloga, but the Journal calls them, I can't read the French Beh. Beh homez being like

Aaron Brien: 1:08:30

people,

Shandin Pete: 1:08:31

let me see what it says, rather than recording them as absaloga or explaining the name the NPS history, National Park Service history notes that this expedition materials are difficult to align with modern tribal names, and then tribal identification is interpretive. I don't know what that word means, B, E, A, u, x, and then the other word is, H, O, M, E, S, that's French. Let me see if I can translate that. Okay, oh, guess what? It translates

Aaron Brien: 1:09:08

to

Shandin Pete: 1:09:11

handsome men. Yeah, so the earliest accessible name origin explanation I can verify is Hodges, that handbook from 1907 let's see that that's, that's what it came up with.

Aaron Brien: 1:09:38

So I wouldn't say it's, it's wrong. So I think it's important to say, like, chat GTP isn't going to be accurate in the sense of, like, telling the truths of of tribes. It's going to just look for what's available,

Shandin Pete: 1:09:53

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:09:54

and it's going to draw conclusions off of that.

Shandin Pete: 1:09:57

Yeah, it's not necessarily making interpretation. Questions, and it's throwing all all these cautionary things, like at the very end, it says, I'll state it cautiously this way. And it says the early, accessible source I can verify that explains the origin of the name in Hodges handbook entry, which glosses absaloga as Crow, sparrow hawk or bird people, but the more specific phrase appears to be modern standard explanation. But I have not yet found a pre 1907 archival source, Satan stating what it can find, but not given an interpretation. Let me see you

Aaron Brien: 1:10:38

know only because I would say it's that's because I know the what's written about the crows. That's pretty, pretty accurate, you know,

Shandin Pete: 1:10:48

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:10:48

like it said. And so based on what's out there, and comparing it to the crow thing, I mean that if that's the oldest, I'd be interested to know how they were recording the Ojibwe language back then,

Shandin Pete: 1:11:09

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:11:10

and, and if they were just drawing conclusions too based on how things sound right like, they could say that sounds like boujoou, sounds like Bonjour. So they were kind of coming up with their own conclusions based on that. Another thing too, is, if the term is borrowed, there's nothing wrong with that, yeah? So, because we know that terms are borrowed,

Shandin Pete: 1:11:34

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:11:34

it happens all the time,

Shandin Pete: 1:11:36

yeah.

Aaron Brien: 1:11:37

Salish language has French words, you know, crow has words from other tribes and yeah, other tribes have words that from Crow and Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 1:11:50

clearly documented.

Aaron Brien: 1:11:52

Yeah, it's not to me. It's not like that big of a deal. It shouldn't hurt someone's identity here, anything like that. But if there's an Ojibwe listener that has some insight into this. It'd be, I'd be curious to hear someone that's willing to question themselves a little bit, you know,

Shandin Pete: 1:12:08

yeah, yeah. That would be, that would be interesting conversation. It would break that down a bit more.

Aaron Brien: 1:12:17

Absoluga, actually, in the Word of salogan makes no reference the term bird isn't in it at all.

Shandin Pete: 1:12:26

Oh, really,

Aaron Brien: 1:12:28

yeah, just a bad means nose or beak. Could it? Could mean beak. Iza means big and dog. Gua dog, or dog, which would be Laga, means child, our children, our kids, often so B is at laga ups, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 1:13:02

with the bird

Aaron Brien: 1:13:03

child of a big beak,

Shandin Pete: 1:13:07

something with the beak

Aaron Brien: 1:13:09

and, and there's all these references to the Crow Indians being related to the crow bird, or like the Thunderbird or The Eagle. It's none of it's, none of those things. It's, it's a bird in the tobacco ceremony that's used to lead the people from kind of this preparatory place to the finished place, which is, it's a, it's a, you could say it's kind of like a reenactment of our migration,

Shandin Pete: 1:13:43

yeah, so follow it. It's a it's a crane. But for that ceremony, it's, it's, or that sort of is, it's a large beaked bird. They just

Aaron Brien: 1:14:00

follow it,

Shandin Pete: 1:14:02

yeah, yeah. And that, that comes from that, that description you just gave, just now, you could not find that on the internet anywhere,

Aaron Brien: 1:14:17

I don't think so. No, I've never seen it. And the term of sorrow gaps. Actually, I hate outside word,

Shandin Pete: 1:14:25

what?

Aaron Brien: 1:14:26

It's not a crow word. If you were to say it in Crow, you would say a bees. That dog, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 1:14:31

oh yeah, yeah. I think we talked about this before, not on the podcast, a

Aaron Brien: 1:14:38

bee. Zap, probably a bee. Zab, you're mixing the two, the two nose and and big abuse. Probably how they would say a pizza logo,

Shandin Pete: 1:14:52

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:14:54

and they say Absa logo,

Shandin Pete: 1:14:56

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:14:57

yeah.

Shandin Pete: 1:14:58

I so when. While you're doing that, I sort of followed up on this thing. And I said, I said, What are other sources from other tribal groups for the name of the crows? And so it gave me the Hidatsa, the one you just said. So confirming what you just said, right? So the source of that name is Hidatsa, often explained as children of the large beak bird, but didn't give no dates, and it says Hidatsa also from Lewis and Clark's transcription, but it has a different word called paunch pooters, or paunch Indians. And then it has a Crow language branch reference. I don't even know how to say it. P, E, P, E, L, A, T, C, H, E, meaning crow. How do you say that in crow?

Aaron Brien: 1:15:58

Say that again.

Shandin Pete: 1:15:59

P, E, E, L, A, T, C, H, E,

Aaron Brien: 1:16:06

pay the chair is a raven.

Shandin Pete: 1:16:11

Okay, so that's crow. Language grants reference from loose and

Aaron Brien: 1:16:15

clever. It's a crow.

Shandin Pete: 1:16:16

Okay,

Aaron Brien: 1:16:19

Peter, what is Chief medicine Crow's name Peter walk by Holy like a holy Raven, or, I guess, Holy crow, Medicine Crow. And

Shandin Pete: 1:16:36

then it has the sign language, which is the bird wing sign, the beating of the wing, yeah, and then the general neighborhood tribal pattern. Okay, that's how much there then. So I followed up. I said, Well, what are the earliest archival materials and dates for these references that you just gave? And it says the earliest one was 1904 1905 Lewis and Clark in their estimate of Eastern Indians sort of gives that explanation that you just gave, but the hidats is calling you folks the solid guy.

Aaron Brien: 1:17:14

Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 1:17:15

not no exact words, but it's

Aaron Brien: 1:17:17

because our real name is biluga bluga.

Shandin Pete: 1:17:22

Oh, yeah, that's a. What does that mean?

Aaron Brien: 1:17:27

Our side,

Shandin Pete: 1:17:29

our side,

Aaron Brien: 1:17:31

our side, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 1:17:32

literally,

Aaron Brien: 1:17:34

I think. So, yeah, let's

Shandin Pete: 1:17:39

see if that showed up in here, but I don't see it anyway. I thought that was pretty interesting. And you know, this whole AI tool, and some people's the key dangers of AI and indigenous data. You know that cautionary tale of extractivism. You know, I don't think that's, I don't think that's a danger just isolated the AI, that's our own people, and non Indigenous people can do that without AI. Already see it and already see it happening. You know, everything that's sort of in that list I gave you at the beginning. I think it's just how, how much you authorize it as a, as an expert in whatever it's searching up, you have to have that critical, critical background knowledge to say, okay, is this? Is this evidence supported by what? Yeah, no, what I've known. But even then again, even if it like it said, even if it gives you new evidence, you have to be sort of open and open to sort of dialoguing it or or critically thinking about it a bit more, and we've both been down that road, I think changing our minds on things, you know,

Aaron Brien: 1:19:08

oh, yeah, I think that's a pretty normal thing. I think life wouldn't be any fun, though, if if you already knew everything when you're young. I think people who are inquisitive and also have the willingness to admit when they don't know something, and that goes for like, anything, yeah, it's not, it's like, like scholarship. It's like being a mechanic, or, yeah, being a horseman, a welder, a soldier, a cop, a counselor, anything, people who are willing to admit their intellectual shortcomings are often the most successful. Yeah, and it's not, I don't think it's as it says complicated as we'd like to think. I think it really just comes down to a. Um, a selfishness, because learning is, there's like a there's a when you learn something, there's like a tiny, like, almost like, dopamine reaction to it,

Shandin Pete: 1:20:11

oh yeah.

Aaron Brien: 1:20:12

There's a little euphoria to it. So when once somebody figures out that learning something,

Shandin Pete: 1:20:21

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:20:22

invokes that, like, it becomes, like, really, like, addicting, like that kind of wanting to learn all the time thing, yeah, I think. But you can't do that till you admit you don't know something, or that you're willing to be hearing other views of something,

Shandin Pete: 1:20:39

yeah, and

Aaron Brien: 1:20:39

I think too much in Indian country, we're like, and I think it's because of a certain level of insecurity,

Shandin Pete: 1:20:46

yeah, that

Aaron Brien: 1:20:47

that we're not allowed to think that way. We have to know like, we have to know everything. And it's like and like, that's just like, impossible, you know? We yeah, we do it ourselves, where we'll look at a person and they're like the cultural person of your community or your where you live, and we don't take initiative just to like, learn,

Shandin Pete: 1:21:12

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:21:13

so we come people like that. We just we adopt this weird belief that it's all on them, that we have to be like them, and they have to know everything. And it's like, they're they're also, like, if you were to, like, sit down and have really candid conversations with them, they're exhausted, you know? They're like, we like, this is not the planet design. Like you guys are supposed to, like, be active participants in this and not wait for me to do, give the blessings to do things and all that, you know?

Shandin Pete: 1:21:40

Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:21:41

I see tribes doing this and and I don't know what it is, why it all, to me, it all has to come down to, like, this belief we've adopted that we're supposed to already know. So if we don't know, there's like a fear that comes with it. But man, once you shed that, it's like, you just take off. Yes, so like all this stuff we're talking about, the Medicine Wheel stuff this, it's like, if you were to scope most native people in our circles, meaning like reservations and in communities, whatever people are practitioners of their ceremonial life and and you were to like, scope them and say, What does this term mean to you? Most of those people are going to say, kind of what, what we're taught, or what we've heard, and we're just going to say it,

Shandin Pete: 1:22:38

yeah. But

Aaron Brien: 1:22:39

if you were to like, sit down and visit with them and say, like, really, what does this term mean to you? What is it? I think you're gonna it's very different responses,

Shandin Pete: 1:22:50

yeah. And

Aaron Brien: 1:22:51

they're gonna be like, well, actually, don't mean anything to me.

Shandin Pete: 1:22:53

Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:22:54

you know these we don't talk about turtles, we don't talk about islands. Like, it's not a thing for us. Like,

Shandin Pete: 1:23:02

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:23:02

but we've opted this vernacular, and I think people are afraid to now question it,

Shandin Pete: 1:23:10

yeah, yeah, right.

Aaron Brien: 1:23:13

We're always taught these, like, fake things. I really do think they're fake, and I don't know where they come from, maybe boarding school at a church where we're like, we don't question our elders. I do do all the time,

Shandin Pete: 1:23:26

yeah?

Aaron Brien: 1:23:27

Like, I don't. I don't believe everything they say,

Shandin Pete: 1:23:30

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:23:31

as someone shouldn't believe everything, I say, people should question me, yeah? So I don't. I don't understand this, like, church mentality, or it's like Congress Congregationalism. It's like, oh, here's the elder. Like, the way they talk. It's like, really cult, like, kind of Guru, like monarch, kind of like selected. So

Shandin Pete: 1:23:59

it's, yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:24:00

it's odd to me. So like, if we're sitting on this, what we're doing right now is sitting here questioning really popular ideas,

Shandin Pete: 1:24:06

yeah, and

Aaron Brien: 1:24:07

especially in the academic and, like, the mental health scene,

Shandin Pete: 1:24:12

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:24:13

I'm not, I'm not questioning the medicine wheel thing because I hate it. Yeah, it's pretty rare that I hate something, simply part of life, to look at something and say, does that concept fit what I want to do in my life or what I want to hear right? And then, then it turns into, it's like, was that authentic? Is that an authentic form?

Shandin Pete: 1:24:38

Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 1:24:39

And maybe what we find out is it's authentic to somebody,

Shandin Pete: 1:24:43

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:24:44

some tribe, to some people. It grows from that. And I'm willing to accept that. I'm willing to say that, okay, as long as we say, just like the narc, would you say nargansett? Or who is it that talk about Turtle Island?

Shandin Pete: 1:24:59

Holy? Nashoni,

Aaron Brien: 1:25:01

the Haudenosaunee, just like the Haudenosaunee, they're mentions of turtleina. If that's how we talk, that's acceptable. I'm not against Turtle Island. What I'm against is making it generic and tribalizing it.

Shandin Pete: 1:25:15

Yeah, yeah. It's like, set a thought about it now I forgot. Yeah, it's this thing of, I mean, even if it's not authentic, but it works, that's cool, too long as you're not dressing it up as,

Aaron Brien: 1:25:37

don't, yep, don't dress it up man, yeah, and like, that's the thing is, I think it's just coming down to being honest about what something is,

Shandin Pete: 1:25:44

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:25:45

not being afraid to be criticized and working from that man, I just don't think we're allowed to be that way. And even there's going to be people take offense to what we're saying today, there's also going to be people who agree wholeheartedly with us and for them, they can apply this concept to anything, anything. It doesn't have to be Turtle Island. Doesn't have to be it could be rematriation. Like, why? What is the letter changing? Do you know what I mean? Are like,

Shandin Pete: 1:26:19

Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:26:20

but like, really, let's be honest about ultimately, where these things go wrong is because the arena in which they're in is not authentic to begin with, right? Like we, we have all these concepts that we're we're taking from Native people and we're applying it to a place that they don't belong, and then we wonder why they're clunky and why they're funny, almost. You know,

Shandin Pete: 1:26:44

there's nothing

Aaron Brien: 1:26:44

more funny to me than going to, like, a gathering on a university campus and and all these tribal people get together, and they clunk their way through making a spirit plate and praying for the food. And it's so awkward, and it's like, and it's like, when are we just gonna admit that sometimes when we do white people shit, we should just do white people shit. You know what I mean?

Shandin Pete: 1:27:14

Yeah, I sort of had

Aaron Brien: 1:27:16

that make it something that's not

Shandin Pete: 1:27:18

Yeah. I sort of had that thought today when I was watching this ribbon cutting of a new casino back home, you know. And I in my, in my head, you know, my private thoughts, I was saying, Man, that they could have done something more authentic, you know, real Salish, you know, to that was a casino. Man, ribbon cuttings, fine. You know, like you said one

Aaron Brien: 1:27:49

time, I was at a I don't even say the place or location, but they're wanting to do like this dedication, plant a tree in memory of somebody,

Shandin Pete: 1:27:57

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:27:58

and it's like, in all reality, let's just plant the tree. Have somebody say a few good words about the person that we're painting for, and then we plant the tree. And then everybody is happy, yeah. Instead, they tend to make the Indian, the planting the tree thing, native honor song. Then there's like a person dancing towards the hole, like a bag full of like Prince Albert tobacco, or tops, or whatever it is. And they like, pour the tobacco in the in the hole in the ground, and then which is immersed anyway, so the whole thing, they plant the tree. Everyone's emotional and rightfully so, right? It's a memorial,

Shandin Pete: 1:28:44

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:28:44

a year later, the tree dies.

Shandin Pete: 1:28:48

Well,

Aaron Brien: 1:28:49

yeah, because you just put a bunch of tobacco in, the whole roots are, like, tainted by nicotine and chemicals. And it's like, and, and they're like, well, as long as you have a good heart, you know, it's like, well, sometimes No, man, no. And sometimes we can just do the thing, like, let's just plant the tree. And that would that's meaningful, yeah, still meaning. You know, it doesn't have to be other stuff. So

Shandin Pete: 1:29:17

you gotta dress it up. We

Aaron Brien: 1:29:19

don't have to dress it up, man, like, you can put a dress on a pig. It's still a pig.

Shandin Pete: 1:29:23

Yeah?

Aaron Brien: 1:29:24

You know, I can stand in a garage all day. It doesn't mean no. And I just think that these people, in myself included. So here's the thing, like, I'm guilty of this too, because I was young once, and I was uninformed, and I was, I was, I was being roped into doing these things, yeah, and, and it never totally felt comfortable for me, you know, yeah, is this a thing? Like, is this really like, what we should be doing, you know?

Shandin Pete: 1:29:56

Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:29:57

and so, but I did it. So in a way, that's kind of like selling out to your own beliefs. But I'm also somebody who's like, hey, these older guys told me to come sing with them, so I'm gonna go sing with them. And

Shandin Pete: 1:30:09

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:30:10

next year, we're we're round dancing around the world. What are we doing? You know, like, Who's this for? Who are we serving?

Shandin Pete: 1:30:22

What's

Aaron Brien: 1:30:23

all this for? So I think if people are just honest and okay in their own beliefs and secure with themselves, we don't feel the need to dress everything up. I don't like I wear a cowboy hat, right? And I remember one time somebody saying, How does it feel to wear a cowboy hat wearing, like, the hat of the oppressor. I'm like, that's all the hats of the oppressor. Talking about, you're driving a Toyota Camry. Like, you're like, where does it begin and end? Like, where does you know? Like, like, what are you doing? Like, why do you even care? Like, your business mind like,

Shandin Pete: 1:31:04

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:31:04

you know, I do. I do. Think this is a caveat to what I'm saying, the concept of pan indianism and Turtle Island and and seven generations, and we're all related, and all this, okay? I think it's fair to say all of those things find their origins with some native tribe reduce tribal people have hijacked those concepts and trivialize them amongst the population of native people.

Shandin Pete: 1:31:35

Oh, yeah.

Aaron Brien: 1:31:35

But if a young person goes to a university and learns those things. And if those very concepts just prompt them to question people amongst their own tribe and say, Hey, this is the thing for us. And then they're corrected and they're shown something, then maybe that's, that's the silver lining. It's like the fake Indian stuff are the pan Indian stuff. Grab them.

Shandin Pete: 1:32:06

Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 1:32:07

But what I don't think should happen is Native students should be stuck there. They shouldn't keep themselves as a springboard to like, learn about their people, to become practitioners. I don't think it's enough. Just learn who you are, be it, you know, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 1:32:25

yeah. The the problem, the problem with that is, there's, there's a reward. There's a reward for promoting those pan indigenous ideas, you know, an academic reward. You know, you can, you can splash your your scholarship with that stuff, and you'll get citations, man, and people ask you to come talk about your seven generations teachings and all these things. You know, that's, that's the reward. So the seduction of that, that is a very strong thing. But this, so, yeah, so it's sort of, I think I see this separated in two ideas, and we can sort of start wrapping up that, and then we can continue talking about this later. But so there's like, what you call like first order evidence, right? That's things that sort of support a claim that you might have, and those things are easy to find, in a way I maybe not always, but, you know, it's easy to like I could, I could easily find why seven generations is, is, is a good thing.

Aaron Brien: 1:33:32

Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 1:33:33

I can find support for that.

Aaron Brien: 1:33:35

It's not bad. You know, none of these are bad.

Shandin Pete: 1:33:37

It's not bad, but, but, but when I but, when I ask myself, well, if this is an indigenous teaching, then what does that really mean?

Aaron Brien: 1:33:46

Then Then where's the teaching? Yes, teaching part.

Shandin Pete: 1:33:50

Then you, then you gotta, sort of gather some higher order evidence, which, which asks very specific questions, like, How reliable is all these sources that are feeding this to me,

Aaron Brien: 1:34:02

like, if I want to learn seven generations, the teaching of the seven generations, whatever it is, then I want to learn it from the Iroquois.

Shandin Pete: 1:34:10

Yeah, I

Aaron Brien: 1:34:11

don't want to learn it from it intro to literature teacher. I don't want to learn Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I want to learn the Blackfoot painted teepee. Just teach me.

Shandin Pete: 1:34:32

Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:34:33

I don't need to learn that part of it. I don't need to. I learned this pretty early on, because I kind of got into, like, this early on, when I was younger, I really got into, like, Vine DeLorean Scott, mom, a day and yeah, and these, like, like, the native, native activist. And I read it. I read a book called, like a hurricane. It was about, like, native activism,

Shandin Pete: 1:34:54

yeah, their

Aaron Brien: 1:34:55

movement and all this into, like, all the way tell. I. Out here and all this stuff. And

Shandin Pete: 1:35:01

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:35:03

P VARs, like rights of Indian tribes and landmark Indian law cases. I was getting into all this stuff. I like learning and digesting all of it. What I realized is, like activism now, native activism has become its own culture. It's its own thing. And so yeah, and in fact, the more and more I dove into, into native law and policy and and and the social, economic status of tribes and political status and things like that, it was actually further and further away from the cultural stuff.

Shandin Pete: 1:35:38

Oh yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:35:39

because it's its own culture. It's its own thing, right? So it has its own rules. It has its own sodality. It has its own

Shandin Pete: 1:35:48

and,

Aaron Brien: 1:35:49

in a way, kind of a kinship like its own camaraderie, it's yeah, that thing is its own. It's separate. It felt to me to be separate. So yeah, and I think that can often be masked as native culture and belief is that activism. So I used to always say the early activists of native people in the 60s, 50s, 60s and 70s came from one generation removed from practitioners, people who are practitioners of ceremonial life and and connections to all that stuff, if they weren't themselves practitioners. So when they're fighting for the rights and recognition of native people, they were doing it from like a first 10s perspective, like, it's like, this is the direct result, right?

Shandin Pete: 1:36:38

Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:36:39

point A to point B was a lot closer.

Shandin Pete: 1:36:41

Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 1:36:42

Now what happened, instead of native activism, breeding and developing young practitioners, it actually created offspring of more activism. So you then have two generations of activists, three generations of activists. Now that third, fourth generation of activism is actually pretty far removed from culture, from like practitioning, Native belief and

Shandin Pete: 1:37:09

practice and tradition.

Aaron Brien: 1:37:11

They've they've all adopted that pen form of native belief, which is seems to be influenced a lot by like the Lakota, right,

Shandin Pete: 1:37:23

right,

Aaron Brien: 1:37:23

right. And that's not this on them. It just seems that seems to be the influence, yeah. And I think the people that are the most impactful and the most dynamic, like civil rights leaders for Native people are probably the ones that learned it like a trade. It's like a trade, kind of like a preacher, like how, like, a preacher learns the trade of being a preacher.

Shandin Pete: 1:37:51

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien: 1:37:53

Because really, if you were, like, staunch and like ceremonialism, and that was your life, and you really never dove into, like, the activist part of life, when you came over to it would seem very foreign. I feel like,

Shandin Pete: 1:38:07

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:38:09

like, to me, I think working in preservation, we kind of like teeter on on animal form of activism, but it's done like behind the scenes. Like, we're not picket line. People were not like, write letters to your Congressman. Like,

Shandin Pete: 1:38:24

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:38:25

it's not like that, but we're definitely fighting for the culture of native people, but

Shandin Pete: 1:38:29

it's

Aaron Brien: 1:38:30

different. I don't know if what I'm saying is making sense, but I think ultimately it's like a form of pan indianism. The things you talked about have become the doctrine of Pan indianism, Turtle Island, we're all related, medicine wheels. These teachings, these, these things used to teach have become the Gospels according to indianism,

Shandin Pete: 1:38:59

yeah, yeah. And

Aaron Brien: 1:39:00

I'm not a pan Indian. I'm not like, yes. I don't believe in global indigenizing. I don't believe in it. It's not that I don't have anything against people from New Zealand or people from Australia or the Sami people are I don't have anything against them. But I also think the fight of Crow Indian people is not the same as what they're going there might be like, crossover,

Shandin Pete: 1:39:26

yeah?

Aaron Brien: 1:39:27

Like, the plight might be the same, but I have to look out for what Crow people want,

Shandin Pete: 1:39:33

yeah, literally,

Aaron Brien: 1:39:34

in my job, right? Like, I have to look out. I can't spend my time doing this. Like,

Shandin Pete: 1:39:39

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:39:40

let's indigenize, colonize spaces, or let's, you know,

Shandin Pete: 1:39:45

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:39:45

man, I get that, and it seems like it there's there might be a place for it, but it's just not a place for me.

Shandin Pete: 1:39:51

So the

Aaron Brien: 1:39:53

closest I think we get to it is our podcast, because we just try to be as honest as possible. The bullying. It's like I just don't have that. That doesn't mean I love native people any less. I just think I'm a specialist. I specialize in this place here,

Shandin Pete: 1:40:14

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:40:14

to remove me from it,

Shandin Pete: 1:40:16

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:40:16

I'm outside of my specialized area, and I really can't offer much assistance to that, you know,

Shandin Pete: 1:40:23

yeah, at

Aaron Brien: 1:40:23

least I don't think I can. Who knows?

Shandin Pete: 1:40:26

Yeah, yeah, I you know, it's, it's not complicated, but it's complicated in that same manner. And like you saying, you know, the tradition and the ceremonialism that people desire and want, you know, to inject into these places, you know their research, or the academy, you know that there's there's No, there is no there's no replacement of those things. They they require hard work. And I think some of these things that are pan indigenous, or they're easy and they're accessible, that's what makes them so attractive. And when you're talking about these this way. You know that these, these activist way, you know, some people get so drunk on it, they're almost like addicts. And it's, you know, you like you, you challenge, you challenge them a bit, and they sort of go into a rage. You know how a drunk does, and you take their booze away, tell them to sober up. They blame you. You're the one you're attacking me, you know, it becomes very hostile. It's like this real addictive sort of mentality that if you start challenging these things, yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna get it, you know, it's a dangerous thing. But you're right, you know, the the answer of very specific local problems is going to be found in local local ideas and traditions, you know, and a lot of times those things are the most practical things. It's not this complicated decolonization efforts, it's just there's practical things that work because of the people's need and their understanding of their own histories and backgrounds. And it's not going to be something from the outside that's going to fix

Aaron Brien: 1:42:34

it. Amen.

Shandin Pete: 1:42:39

Anyway, I thought I was interested in that, so I wanted to talk about tonight.

Aaron Brien: 1:42:45

I like it,

Shandin Pete: 1:42:46

yeah, there's more to say about it.

Aaron Brien: 1:42:48

It was good. It was it was like a old seven three power international diesel motor, though it took a little bit fire up. It's good. I got where you're going, chat. GPT, it'll be interesting to see where things go.

Shandin Pete: 1:43:07

Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:43:07

I wouldn't say it was totally inaccurate, though. Like, from what I saw, it wasn't like a total mess, you know, I've seen native people write papers on stuff like that. Were far worse, you know,

Shandin Pete: 1:43:17

oh man, yeah, yeah, that's the thing. It takes prompting, the right, prompting

Aaron Brien: 1:43:22

people do just bad too,

Shandin Pete: 1:43:24

yeah, but it takes the critical eye right. Like when I first searched that term about Bojo, it, it fed me what? What's popular, but then I had to prompt it a bit more to get some of the other sources. But you know, still it's not. It doesn't say that it's this is settled. Now that you've told me these things, it's just, here's some things that I found that are related to what you're asking me. But in the end, it takes the human brain to make those decisions and whether something is higher order evidence, whether or not to change your mind about something,

Aaron Brien: 1:44:01

for sure.

Shandin Pete: 1:44:02

The end,

Aaron Brien: 1:44:05

the end, good place to end. One of our listeners, he sends me messages all the time, and man loves the show. His name's talent. Talent, Lone bear,

Shandin Pete: 1:44:16

yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:44:16

so he was asking when we're gonna record again? So we're

Shandin Pete: 1:44:20

doing tonight, talent, this is it. Keep this class too. Man. I had a class that time, and I, I assigned some of our episodes, and they got I got real into it, and they wanted to know if we had merch and all that business. So I reset up our stored for the mugs. You know, you could buy the mugs. I can't remember the link set, but buy mugs with our mug on it. But yeah, shout out to my class.

Aaron Brien: 1:44:49

There's also something that don't have our faces on them, that

Shandin Pete: 1:44:53

don't have mugs, that don't have our mugs on them. Shout out to my ILS, 105, class for. Sticking with me, because these are the things that that I like to talk about in that class, challenge the ideas. Anyway, let's do it. We're done. All right, man, good. You.