372: You Can’t Have a Yes Without a Why With Carla Ward

What if the behavior you’re trying to manage isn’t really a child problem—but an environment problem? Kate Woodward Young sits down with Carla Ward, early childhood educator, director, entrepreneur, and host of The Everything EC Podcast, for a candid conversation about challenging the “way we’ve always done it” in early childhood. From creating “yes spaces” that give children more autonomy and agency to replacing pre-designed toys with open-ended materials, Carla shares practical ways to rethink classroom environments, reduce power struggles, and understand what children’s behavior is really telling us.

Carla and Kate also explore why more rules and control can sometimes create more challenging behavior, how to turn a safety-based “no” into a meaningful “yes,” and why Pinterest-perfect classrooms don’t always support real learning. Whether you’re an educator, director, owner, or administrator, this episode offers a fresh lens on behavior, leadership, and responsive teaching—and plenty of practical ideas you can put into action. If you’re ready to create classrooms where children and teachers have more freedom to learn, explore, and thrive, this conversation might change the way you see behavior forever.

Learn more about Carla: YES Spaces Masterclass- https://carlatheece.com/yes-spaces-masterclass

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/carlatheece

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carla-ward/

Check out this episode's sponsor:  tryplayground.com/partnerships/childcareconversations

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Transcript

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Childcare Conversations 0:00

Welcome to Childcare Conversations, the podcast where early childhood leaders like you get real-world strategies, honest talk, and a whole lot of support. Whether you're running one center or many, we're here to help you lead with confidence and clarity. This episode is brought to you by this quarter's sponsor, Playground, the all-in-one child care management software. We're all about managing monkeys and saving you time at your center. With this platform, you can. We're proud to partner with a team that's as committed to your success as we are. Learn more at TryPlayground.com. Now, let's get into today's conversation. One we think you're really going to love.

Kate Woodward Young 0:48

Welcome back to today's conversation, and I am so excited because today's co-host is Carla Ward, all the way from Ontario, Canada. Um, and that's kind of like the roundabout how she got here. Uh, definitely not a straight shot. So as a let's see, what am I? I'm a Canadian now by parent birth. I don't know. I was not born in Canada, but my father was, and he was still Canadian when I was born. So I was teasing Carla that the next time I come to see her, I'm actually going to travel on my Canadian passport because I can. And so with that, Carla's coming all the way to your podcast player of choice, uh, born in South Africa until middle school, really, right? So until uh secondary school, and moved to Canada and now has her own ECE podcast and all kinds of ECE businesses, uh, loves to support that industry. So today, Carla, tell everybody how you found yourself in early childhood, why you've stayed in early childhood, and why you are so passionate about supporting educators in any role they want to take in early childhood.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Oh, Kate, thank you so much. So, first of all, thanks for having me on today. I like to joke that I live, breathe, and bleed early childhood education. I literally, other than being a Starbucks barista, I don't know what else I would do. And the only reason I'd be a Starbucks barista is because they get to drink coffee. And if I can make a living out of that, why not? But I found early childhood, I mean, like I said, it was the only thing I was meant to do. I started teaching Sunday school in the ninth grade every Sunday. I started working with the littles two-year-olds, did that all through high school. Then I taught brownies, then I taught girl guides, then I taught youth group. And so when the time came to choose a path for post-secondary, EC was the only option, or being a minister according to my grade 10, like high school guide thing, um, where we took a quiz. Um, ministry was not my path of choice. So early childhood education, it is. I left, I started at 17, went to college, graduated at 19, got a job right out of college as a before and after school teacher. And I've been an early childhood ever since. And now what I do is straw strat, let's try that again. I now straddle two worlds of early childhood is one working with educators in the classroom, and one working with educators who want to become entrepreneurs but staying in early childhood and want to give back into the field. So that is what I do. My podcast is the Everything EC podcast, and coming soon will be the ECE to the ECE to CEO podcast.

Kate Woodward Young 3:32

And that was me in a nutshell. I love that. And every time we have a conversation, I'm like, boy, can our lives parallel every ever anymore? And I say that even when I hear you, like I'll see things on your socials, which by the way, all of Carla's contact information and socials are all in today's show notes. So please go connect with Carla. Go follow her podcast. Um, she's had some great guests. Like, chances are, if you've heard them on mine, you've probably heard them or can go hear more of them on Carla's. And so that's always very, very exciting for me. And, you know, knowing, because you know, um my grandmother was a 1913 girl guide. And so um Canadian girl guide. And so, you know, gotta gotta throw in that little the little blue Canadian girl guide uniform because mine was never blue. All kinds of shades of green, all kinds of shades of green.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Mine was blue. That's so funny. Mine was blue in South Africa, and it was blue when I got to Canada.

Kate Woodward Young 4:33

Yeah, so most girl guide uniforms are. So the girl guides I knew from Kenya, from Iceland, um, and from other parts of the globe. The Girl Guide uniforms are traditionally blue. Uh, Girl Scouts for whatever Girl Scouts of the USA, we've always had some obnoxious shade of green um in most of our uniform colors. Brownies were brown. Yeah. And that's pretty universal across the globe. Um, I don't know why the rest of it can't be universal. Um, our Mariner Scouts would be blue, and um, any of the flight aviation troops were usually blue. But if you were a traditional Girl Scout, you were in some, and again, that green has changed so many times, and it's usually some obnoxious color. So, anyway, totally a roundabout conversation, so not on today's agenda. But with that, one of the things that I love is that all of the directors and owners who are listening to today's podcast, you all have one thing in common, and that is that you have staff probably who are passionate about the industry, and we have an expert guest to help you today kind of figure out how to talk to your your teachers on how to continue to be their best. Is that a good way to kind of summarize our today's topic?

SPEAKER_01 5:54

I'm gonna go with yes because that is my favorite word is yes. I always like to joke that yes is such a powerful word, and partially because if you think about, you know, books like Getting to Yes, Yes Man, like the entire premise or yes day uh with Jennifer Gardner, like those entire movies are basically mocks of just saying yes all the time because we say no so much. So we're gonna talk about yes spaces, but before we do that, I want to talk about why. And partially because it's something I discovered when I was director and supervisor of a center was we were trying to control the children so much that we were getting unnecessary behaviors. And part of it was it wasn't even necessarily trying to control the human beings themselves. We were trying to control how they played within their environment. So one of the first things I did when I started out as director was, and my staff lost their minds, but bless them, they trusted me, was I went and took all pre-designed materials out of their classrooms. So plastic farmhouses came out, plastic castles came out. And my rule of thumb is two weeks. If we're gonna try something, we have to try it for two weeks because it goes two ways. Either one, it goes beautifully week one because it's new and it's fancy, and then it absolutely falls apart the second week, or it's an absolute nightmare the first week, and you want to throw in the towel really easily, but then the second week it works out really well. And then the third option is, you know, it's beautiful and it all works out tickety-boo. So the rule of thumb was we're gonna take all the pre-designed um things out of our programs and we're gonna put in blocks. We're gonna put in, you know, Amazon boxes, we're gonna put in blocks, we're gonna do all of that, and we're just gonna let children play. Those pre-designed things never made it back into their classrooms. And they and they were welcome to after two weeks, if they could give me a good reason as to why. And so we I started really learn leaning into this idea of giving children autonomy and agency within their programs. So what happened after I was director was our kindergarten teacher needed to leave for Matt Leave. And we had a unique class of children, we will say. And I adored these kids. Their teacher absolutely adored them. But her and I were very concerned that if we put another new staff member in there, they were gonna quit. We were worried that we were gonna land up with a revolving door of educators. We all know that game well. And so I made the decision that it was actually easier to replace me as director and put me back in kindergarten. So I went back into kindergarten and it was it was a nightmare. Let me tell you. But it was only in 1990.

Kate Woodward Young 8:36

You know that book, Everything I Ever Wanted to Know I Learned in Kindergarten? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

I'm still in, I'm still in a little bit of that happening. Okay. All right. 100%. And so, because really quickly, I went in and I was trying to run the room like their teacher was running it because I was like, oh, but they need consistency. Well, I wasn't her and she wasn't me. So I always tell the story that I had my quitting letter in my car, and I was like, one day I'm just gonna walk out, I'm gonna fill in the date at the top of the letter, I'm gonna hand it in and I'm out. And then I went back to, you know, essentially what I was teaching my staff when I was director was stop trying to control other people. You can control two things, the environment and yourself. And so what I did was I leaned into saying yes. And if I couldn't say yes, I had to reflect on why. And is it a what I call a YP or an MP, a your problem or a my problem? So if like if a child was climbing a shelf, obviously that's not safe. So that's a safety concern. So the question is that's a my problem, but why are they climbing the shelf? What are they trying to tell me? And how do I turn that no, which is a safety concern, into a yes? So bringing in balance beams, bringing in gross motor activities, extending our outdoor play to meet that need. And when I can when I tell you best two teaching years of my entire life, because I leaned into yes and started giving children more autonomy and agency, and relinquished this need to control the children in my classroom and started paying more attention to my behavior, my role, and the environment that we were coexisting in. You know what? I just double. I think that like that's all everybody needs.

Kate Woodward Young 10:27

I'm just saying, put this on a rewind, on a loop. Like, I mean, I think that Carla just gave every director an owner who's listening, who has said this phrase at all in the last three years. The behavior of the kids is so different than it used to be. And we all come up with our reasons. Screen time, parents are disconnected, parents are hovering, parents aren't engaged, la la la la la la la la la. I I don't really care what your reason is, but I think that Carla just hit the real reason absolutely square on the head, as you know, as if we didn't know it, but sometimes we do. We need that mirror reflection, we need that aha moment of, oh, yeah. Kind of like you did, right? Like as a director, it's really easy to say this is what we need to do. But then when's the last time you were in the classroom?

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Oh, yes. It was it was eye-opening because I was, you know, I was two years as a director going in saying this is what we're gonna do. And then I found myself back in the classroom and I was like, oh no. Like, I actually forgot. Like you do, you do forget, right? And listen, it can all be true. Parents can change, AI enters the picture, tech enters the picture, but at the end of the day, the children haven't changed as much as we actually think they have. Their environment has.

Kate Woodward Young 11:54

But they haven't some parents have chosen for the environment to change, and some schools have chosen for those environments to change. But it hasn't been that it had to. And you know, it's so funny because you were saying about, you know, um, and you know, having been in the industry for multiple decades now, I remember this statement being a statement in the 80s, a statement in the 90s, 20, 20, 10, like all the like every 10 years, I hear something about, oh, the parents these days, the kids these days. My favorite are the staff these days. And I'm like going, okay, so now I've heard that every year for the last 40 years, or you know, every 10 years for the last 40. How can this continue to be? So it's because we also change, right? So if you think about what were you like when you were 19 in a classroom, what worked for you at 19 in a classroom isn't gonna work for you at 29 in a classroom. It's not gonna work for you 39 in a classroom. That isn't going to work for you now as an administrator, telling the 19-year-old what they should be doing in the classroom because well, some things have changed. Sometimes it's a more popular educational philosophy. Maybe it's an actual change in your own personal education philosophy. Do you have one? I mean, I know Carla does, and I know Carla has changed, right? Carla. Carla's educational philosophy at 19 has changed to what it is today. I know mine has. You know, and and some levels. I mean, I was a school age STEM instructor. Like that's where I started when I wasn't before after I had a home-based program. So I went from a home-based program to a multi-site school age STEM. Anyway. So, you know, so yes, technology has always been a thing in my world. And so it's been a thing in my world, ooh, over 26 years. I looked at the cat, I looked at the date and I went, oh, yeah. So 90, 98.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

But I will push back though, because yes, we've changed, but I also think one of the most dangerous things a director can say, a co-teacher can say, is, well, that's how we've always done it. Because listen, if it's working, truly working, then fine. But you have to actually be willing to hold up the mirror and ask yourself if it's truly working. Because nine times out of 10, it's not actually working. It's just working for you. It's not working for the children in your program, and it's not working for the new staff member who just went to college and learned all of this new information that will actually benefit you as a program. Now, I'm not saying that we as veterans don't have a lot to teach the new grad, but we mustn't underestimate how much the new grad has to teach us too.

Kate Woodward Young 14:46

Well, and again, sometimes it's a whole different set of eyes. Like you and I can have a conversation probably about the same topic. And just because of, I don't know, the different countries we were raised in, the different times, we have just enough generational difference that there's probably even some of that that will impact my viewpoint of what your philosophy is versus, you know, your impact on you know, your take on mine. And my pill, the children I've interacted with, the children you've interacted with, the parents I've interacted with, the parents you've interacted with, and of course, all those educators that you and I have interacted with all impact our point of view. So we can never, we should never, can't say can't ever, because you know people do, but we should never just always assume that we're always right. Or it should always be.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

I'm a Capricorn, it's hard.

Kate Woodward Young 15:38

Yeah, no, you know, as a Sagittarius, I I I'm a bit opinionated. Um, I'll just go say I'm just a bit bit opinionated. I don't really care why or how you want to say that I am that opinionated, it just happens. And sometimes my face doesn't always keep up with the words that are coming out of my mouth. Um, I have subtitles, they're kind of built in.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

My RBF is very much alive and well.

Kate Woodward Young 16:00

Absolutely. So if you know as a as a as a leader in your program, so whether you're a director, you're an owner, you're an administrator and or manager, whatever your program calls that person who's not a classroom teacher, and you're like, huh, things don't seem to be going the way they should in that classroom. I think some of the first things is exactly what Carla said before, right? Don't change anything for anything less than two weeks. And I always like to ask questions.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

That's what I was gonna say too. Is that why? Like, why do you have a poster with words of the week on it with two-year-olds who can't read? Why do you have this beautiful motivational poster that says you're a star in an infant room where they can't read? That's the like honestly, it always blows my mind and it's so sweet, and the intention is always good, and I know that, but you know what I'd rather see instead of you're a star, I'd rather see a child's family photo. I'd rather see a child's artwork, I'd rather see mirrors, I'd rather see lights, change the environment to meet the needs of the children. And I can tell you, if your teachers are struggling and you start there, they'll fall back in love with teaching very quickly.

Kate Woodward Young 17:12

Uh you know, and it is, it's so interesting to get caught up in the catalog version of what a classroom is supposed to look like, or the television version of what we think, or somehow it's just whatever it is that all of a sudden we think these classrooms are supposed to look like, but have never looked like um in real functioning classrooms. I mean, my least favorite thing, and this is one of those, I'm gonna call it a shameful plug on some levels, but you know, one of our partners, North Star School Supply, I mean, on some levels, I really like the fact that they don't really have a catalog. Because yes, you can go onto their website and you can buy all of the traditional school supplies, but they don't have a catalog, so they're not showing you how it's supposed to look. Like they show you the picture of the bookshelf, not where it's supposed to go. And, you know, if you look at the the the top two school supply vendors in the in the in the continent, I I won't say globe because I don't really know the European market as well as I should, but at least in Canada and in the United States and in Mexico, there are two manufacturers who pretty much have kind of the monopoly on it, and they they have catalogs and catalogs and catalogs and digital and print, and and so they show you pictures. And I have walked into that Pinterest perfect, the catalog perfect classroom, and the kids are in chaos. Like whoever's designing those pictures has never actually set foot in a classroom. And I think that's just a real shame for the educator, for the owner and director who have somehow been brainwashed into thinking that that's what classrooms, you know, like there are some things that should not be allowed to be sold to somebody who doesn't have at least a third-grade classroom. I mean, if you walk into a school supply store and you're picking up the alphabet strip letters, you better not have anybody in that classroom who's under the age of five.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

And then I have to still ask you why. And you know what? Why is your why is such a magical word? Because someone and what does yes start with?

Kate Woodward Young 19:23

Why? Yes. I love it. So if you see a book magically appear, I, you know, I'm just gonna say I own it.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

No, there you go. Well, there is a course coming, and there is a book coming eventually, but there is a course coming out this August all about yes spaces and designing yes spaces, but really it's about making it work for your own program because what works in my program is not gonna work in your program, which is why it's not a catalog, because I can't say, hey, make sure your sink is near the door. Make sure that this table is in the center of your classroom. Because I don't know your classroom, I don't know your financial situation, I don't know your students, I don't know your ratios because you could be listening from anywhere in the world, and we all have different ratios, different children, different family situations. And you could be a solo teacher or you could be in a class of three teachers, and that makes a huge difference. Let's move the cat. But yes, it's so there's a course coming. That's my little pleasure. Absolutely.

Kate Woodward Young 20:20

And that'll also be in the show notes. So tell us a little bit about more. If you're a director or owner and some of this is resonating, what I love about your class is that your class that you're teaching is actually for the educator. So this is not a as a director, you might want to jump in. I'm just saying, we can all learn a little, a little more yes empowerment, right? And so probably wouldn't hurt you any, but don't come, don't come take the class so that you can teach your teachers. No, that's tacky. Come to the class so that you're hearing what your teachers are learning and get your teachers in this class. I think this is just like this should just be on everybody's top 10 um in your professional development plan for 2026, 2027. Get this class on your your staffs to do. And so tell us a little bit more. I know, but tell everybody else why they need to.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Because the children haven't changed, but we are in a very different world. And we have to acknowledge, this is my big one, we have to acknowledge that AI has entered the picture. There is not a single child under five that knows a world without AI. They might not be using it, but it they exist in the world with AI, whether we allow them to use it.

Kate Woodward Young 21:34

They're probably watching it, they're being impacted by it because we've got teachers who are using AI to write curriculum.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Absolutely. So they exist in this world. And so the purpose of yes spaces is to build an environment, not even necessarily in the physical sense, but build an environment where children have autonomy and agency. And I don't know why all of a sudden my cat has decided to enter the picture. She wants to say yes here, and I'm saying no. So if we want to, we want to provide a world where children have autonomy and agency, they have a voice, they know what they that they're valued, because if we don't give them a voice and uh give them an opportunity to figure out who they are, AI is gonna tell them who they are. And that is a very dangerous game for us to be setting, sending children out into our world like that. They have to know their strengths, their weaknesses, their capabilities. They need to believe that they're competent and capable. And designing an environment that says yes is really important. And I also like to preface because sometimes people's faces, when I talk about yes in a classroom, people get really nervous. This does not mean turning your program into a giant thing of Lord of the Flies. Like, believe it or not, the more autonomy and agency you give children, the calmer your classroom becomes. It is not chaotic. I promise you, it is not chaotic. If it is, then you have to step back and ask why. Because anytime I've introduced yes spaces, the classroom has become calmer, not more chaotic. So I always say, just come in with an open mind and say yes. Trust the process, say yes.

Kate Woodward Young 23:11

And I think what's great is that you can pull this yes experience into your personal life. The more you do it, the better you're going to be at it. If we only ever learned how to walk in a classroom and we never practiced anywhere else, we would only ever be able to make get someplace at, you know, 20 feet at a time. Because then we'd have to sit down because apparently that's all I can walk. You know, and so here's an opportunity to practice those, that that yes with reflection. Because I think that that was the key point of our conversation was, you know, not only the yes, but is it um is or the the no? I guess it's really a sess and the no, right? Is that a is that a me no or a you know, or is it a safety no? Like what is the root cause of that no? And what can we do to make it a yes? And I just love that. And I think that your playground example, climbing the walls literally, is is so perfect because every one of us who are listening can go, oh yeah, that was Johnny last week, or that was Susan and the other program, or you know, we've all had that one kid who is not a two-year-old climbing the walls. Because, you know, that's no, we get that, right? Like that falls into developmental, you know, whatever. But you know, when you got the five-year-old doing it, you gotta go, huh? There's something up here. We gotta, we gotta do something. And I loved that whole pause and reflect and ask those whys that are part of yes. And I just think that that is an absolute, you're gonna have to have to use that. So um, you can't have a yes without a why. And with that, we'll make that today's episode title. So I love that actually. I love that so much. Can't have a yes without a why. And we are so glad, Carla, that you have joined us today. And again, if you are interested in more about Carla's class, what Carla does, all of her information's in the show notes. We are so glad that you joined us for today's conversation. If you don't already subscribe to our newsletter, go to childcareconversations.com and subscribe to the newsletter. We drop two episodes a week, so join us in a few days. And don't forget, yes requires a why.

Childcare Conversations 25:28

Thank you. Thanks for tuning in. We love bringing you real talk and fresh insight from the world of early childhood education. Be sure to follow us on social media to stay connected and catch all of the latest episodes. And if you're planning a conference, training, or special event, Kate and Carrie would love to speak to your audience. You can learn more about their keynote sessions and workshops at kateandcary.com. If you learned something today, share the show and leave us a review below. We'll see you next time on Childcare Conversations.