Jill 0:02  
Hi, and welcome to the sheep show podcast dedicated to all things ovine. Thank you for joining me. I'm Jill Noble from Hallston Valley Farm and sheep stud. I'm your host. This is your podcast To learn more, no more and achieve more when it comes to shepherding home with me as we explore the amazing world of sheep and sheep farming together.

Jill   0:28  
We are here with Simon Thomas from Silk Southdowns. Now Simon has agriculture running through his blood. He was born to breed sheep. He's worked in various different sheep enterprises, including his own. He's worked on a Merino stubs. We've running 30,000 shaped off gauge and for 12 years, and about nine years ago, Simon and his family set up silk South downs which is a Southdown starred in Cavendish. And he's been running that with his with his family. Family and as well as running so fast down. Simon also works on a wagyu backgrounder and feedlot enterprise running, believe it or not 20,000 head. So welcome, Simon. Thanks for joining us on the sheep show podcast.

Simon  1:14  
Well, thanks for having me do so very exciting. Listening.

Unknown Speaker  1:18  
You have I'm so impressed. I'm so rescued from those of you who listen to my agriculture acronyms. That was an idea that Simon had for me. So it was really good of him to let me know and give me that idea. So I really am impressed with your listening. And today we're going to talk a little bit about sheep data and farm data. So that's really what we're going to focus on today. But let's just hear a little bit about Simon I suppose. What got you started into breeding sheep? And I'm particularly interested in why you went with South downs as well.

Unknown Speaker  1:48  
Well, look, I was very fortunate. I was basically born into a shokan at Melbourne show. My family showed blisters from all my existence up until about the age 10. I was Fortunately, I met and still have contact with a lot of lot of the original people that still were about and still going. As you said, I then moved on to working on Merino stone which has just changed directions a bit then as I said the stock agent and now finally the chance came for us to lace a bit of land and and I wanted that as people so I reckon I'm trying to finish what my father started he had some South downs but never showed him I've always loved the South dam and it was just it's the right fit for us. So that's basically where we've come to so

Unknown Speaker  2:36  
that's great now I know Gavin wall who I've done a podcast with recently talked about the downs wall and and what it's like but I'm interested, why did you go with so many obviously they're beautiful shape for one and I know that the caucus qualities are amazing, but what made you go with Southdown,

Unknown Speaker  2:52  
we run a commercial background or tried lamb in the family. We were using Dorset's and we were just Having to like we call Atlanta in the variation in the lands at 69 weeks when we'd like to sell was just far too great. As I said, I've always wanted to set the and stuff and I thought well perfect chance for us to breed the type of shape that that we wanted. The Monday Southdown is getting fairly large and it's almost pushing the extreme of what we're after or what I could buy. So look, it was just a case of tapering it back to what we we desired and and look we don't like shoot shoot our market is that 16 to 24 kilo carcass lamb we get that at 16 weeks this last year we managed to get 98% clearance in one draft. Wow, look, we were very happy with that. So and they're ideal for what we're after. So that's, that's pretty good.

Unknown Speaker  3:45  
And that's a testament to you the breeding that of reading that line if you're getting that consistency, it's amazing.

Unknown Speaker  3:51  
The genetics I chose for what we base the our shape on we thought we're going to talk about stats later but I started recording details and went around looking at braids, probably four or five years before I actually bought my first shape and I had a very set set identity of what I wanted and look it was just it was a case of taking the time and making sure we got what we wanted to to produce a lamb that we want and as you know there's there's no better feeling than using your own breeding to produce an article and when it's a consistent article, it's it's even more pleasing so

Unknown Speaker  4:26  
very good. Well done that's that's really a really good testament and I know I love seeing all the pictures on Facebook and in the monster magazine from as Bob with your winning particularly the long show and as a brilliant show for you and hopefully we'll be back seeing those South downs I know you told me your you and your three daughters are running out on the farm sheep show in July. It's amazing.

Unknown Speaker  4:52  
The girls I love the showing most of their friends are Interstate and we only catch up with a few of the Royal shows and by And said, Look, we're not too sure what we can do. Then I said, Well, we can still prepare the shape as though we're going to show there's still a few smaller shows later in the year. Shillong still at this stage Ghana here. So we're still got a prepper shoot, but I said, Our biggest show, which is the Hamilton sheep mentioned, got cancelled very early on, and I said, Well, why don't we have our own virtual on farm show? And as my oldest daughter Imogen said, She goes, look, just because we can't take our sheep to the people, we can bring the people to say, oh, shoot, that's where it started. So we've done a little video and the girls announced it and then last week, I put one of the outtakes on him. I don't know whether that's great. That's gained huge momentum because of my youngest ones activity. But yeah, it's been very interesting. So I am Look, I'm proud of them. They haven't Never Say Die attitude and all they put a lot of hard work in and for them to stand up at on the show ring for it's a reward so blessed We can do for him. So, and they

Unknown Speaker  6:01  
do it so well. I do it so well. So it's just a

Unknown Speaker  6:05  
very good marketing tool.

Unknown Speaker  6:07  
Yeah, well, you know, definitely I mean, now I always say, you know, go with cute for kicks. And that's exactly. You got some really cool girls

Unknown Speaker  6:16  
and smart. Yeah. Yeah. What can I take off of them?

Unknown Speaker  6:23  
Very good. Very good. So let's have a chat

Unknown Speaker  6:26  
about these concepts of data and sheep data farm data. What is it that's led us to this situation? Now we're recording statistics and data is so important. Why do we need to record stats for our farm and for our sheet you can't improve if you can't measure and the only way you can measure is to actually take data. I'm not talking breeding values, like estimated rate or EBV. I'm talking general farm data like your growth writes you small tribes, like for example, in SF danza, I put a big emphasis on Black nose black pose, when you record the data for that side of things, it's very easy to trace it back if you have it either on a computer system or a written system. So you can quickly go back six, seven generations and you can find and you can quite easily see lines been established through retrograding.

Unknown Speaker  7:18  
That's amazing. So we're really talking about some of the stuff that we think we hold in our head, which actually we don't, but just getting it down.

Unknown Speaker  7:26  
I have a I wouldn't call her a mentor, but there's a lady which a lot of breeders would know which is Maryland Stevens, now Maryland she has a photographic memory of 90% of her shoe, but as she once said to me, she got she can't remember any further back than three generations. She goes Yes, you can. You can name the shape you in that but you can't actually remember the characteristics which made that shape a good shape. So she said like once you go back past that, you saw that you get lost and unless you have a good recording system, you may hit them. the wrong path or you, you might forget a good trait or a bad trait or a good attribute of a certain shape that that's being passed through your hereditary line.

Unknown Speaker  8:08  
What else? What are some other reasons why we need to record data

Unknown Speaker  8:11  
today, if you sell a sheet correctly, like through providing an MVD, you need to be accredited with API, which is livestock production assurance, also, MSI makes sense to Australia. They require you to keep an accurate record of withholding periods, export slaughter intervals, simple things of transfer of your ID. When you sign up to an Nvidia, it just doesn't fit in there. You have the possibility of getting audited, and at some stage, more than likely you will get audited. So you've got to be able to when they come and do your audit, you've got to be able to present all the documents relating to withholding periods relating to when you dress shoe relating to when you even choose a feature. You've got to be able to prevent all this data to say, yes, you're keeping an accurate record. There's two

Unknown Speaker  8:57  
elements there. There's one about you being A good breeder knowing your animals and knowing the traits and then the other here is more of a an obligation like all businesses would have to keep the record straight.

Unknown Speaker  9:10  
Well, it's almost a legislation. It's it's actually legislated that you have to keep those records now. Every stop bright or shape radio would keep records to some degree. It just depends how deep you want to go into that.

Unknown Speaker  9:24  
And when when did you start to realize that this was so essential, this recording of data was so essential

Unknown Speaker  9:31  
when I was working at the Marino property. It was like when you're running six 700 stud sheep and a commercial flock, it was almost it was essential that you had a good record base, as you said, your memory just can't cope with that degree of it. And we were using up to 30 different size we were I I think just on 250 shape each year to about eight or nine different different semen lines. And not only that, but the sheer size of the property. You had to record what was going where where was that When was it strange is a bit bit poof egg camps were coming in, but you had to record all that. And even just the general health you drive around the farm once a week just to record the general health of each mob. That's what I learnt. It was a key to keep good record. And as I said to you, it's about taking farm data and not so much shape data. So

Unknown Speaker  10:19  
if we start to record the data, obviously one element is keeps us looking professional and in case we are audited with the other information, the traits and so on, what what do you think what could we use that data for

Unknown Speaker  10:32  
personally or use that data for when I do my breeding selections, so which which random also, I'll be joining to, I use it for my general classing out of my flock he look at it's just very handy. You can, you can actually say the lines are breeding or the loans or the genetics coming through. And it just, if something's not quite thrown, or something's thrown a little bit to the left, it's very easy. Quick to identify that shape, be able to put it out to the side and sometimes that the improvements are the better but sometimes it's not. And you're able to make your decisions a lot more informative because you've got that data. It's not so much all that shapes got nice Blackfeet and nice back toes good past and Jeff okay, but you actually have a grazing behind keeping that shape. Now,

Unknown Speaker  11:22  
this is a really better decision making along the way.

Unknown Speaker  11:25  
So it's more informed decision making. Look, you still, the old heartstrings still do for you when you have your favorite cancer, and she says a dud. But look, it makes you It makes you better informed. So, look, the more information you have, the easier sometimes a decision becomes.

Unknown Speaker  11:46  
So it sounds like it's a lot of information to manage and track. So what system do you use to do this?

Unknown Speaker  11:56  
Personally, I use a program by practical systems. That's called stock book. Now the reason I've gone this and look people may there's other systems out there but the reason I've gone stuck with it allows me to run a commercial and an individual stud record keeping all in one program I can run a run my commercials as a mob basis. So there's no no individual records required. I have my rfids on a mobile site hundred 90 us and that that's one of the mob rows I can. The same program also allows me to go as far down within the individual animals. So with my stud stock, I can it records everything I need to know from pedigrees to my trait selection to do even micron testing or wall types and so forth. So it's a single program that enables me to do everything bonuses, it does also allow me to have an app on my phone. So if I'm out in the paddock and I see something that's not right, or there's a you there that I can look at the visual tag, right and I'll put open the app, select You will forgive me it's in Toy history, from pedigree breeding, where it's been, what it's eaten, what it's been drenched with. And I can see what's going on with that single animal then and this. So this tool not only contains and allows you to track your sort of sheep breeding records and your traits, but also all these other farm pieces of information that you mentioned. Oh, yeah, look, it does all my styles, all my invoicing, it'll do my Paddick, like we do feed conversion testing and Patagonian testing soil tests of the paddock that then also collaborates my inventory for my chemicals feed. It is basically an all in one farm product or program that normally in the past, we've had two or three programs, which has done it or we've had the written version, it's handy but it just takes a lot of the time time out of it.

Unknown Speaker  13:49  
And what would you say you know, for for someone who's thinking about investing in into a software or a system, who do you think this product is best geared Towards what's in the breeder what's the size

Unknown Speaker  14:02  
when we were investigating which program we would go into. The thing about a lot of the programs now is they all have a demo, we'll have a demo model with three free version. Yeah, like a 30 day trial. We tested eight different programs. Every one of them had the pros and cons. Some Some were very intensive to set up which the program we ended up choosing was at the other scale, there was simple programs that just gave the absolute bare minimum but it didn't allow us to modify to what what to the traits that we really required. At the end of the day, it comes back to actually trialing each program. Any field day you go to you it's one of the last tense a lot of the people go into is is detecting and it's To be honest, it's probably one of the first ones everyone should go into. Because while Yes, there is a cost involved in it long term, it is more than compensated with the quickness and the ease and the results you get. So

Unknown Speaker  14:58  
what do you think what difference Has it made for you using a system like this in your sheep breeding enterprise,

Unknown Speaker  15:05  
I'll talk on a commercial basis, we were fortunate enough, or we are fortunate enough that I have our three different bloodlines within my stud game. And what we were able to do was then to isolate each one of those studs into the commercial aspect. So we were able to monitor how the performance of each of those lines went into a commercial aspect that enabled us to really tighten up what our breeding goals were. But not only that, on the commercial aspect, that is a simple thing of weighing the lambs. we weigh lambs at 10 weeks, and then again at 12 weeks, which gives us a fairly good range as to what the weight gain is program then actually will calibrate bottom we put a feed wedge or feed wage calculator in there, and it'll give us an estimate of the weight gain and when the lamb should be within the weight range of what we're aiming to sell. So that sort of gives us a four to six week period. Where we can look for the best contract to lock the lambs away. And so far there's only been one year where we came a little bit, we still made the weight range but instead of being a 23 and a half kilos land that they estimated, I think we came in at 22. So Also that year we we had no rain in November, which is very unusual for our Southwest victorious so it enables you to or it has enabled us to plan long term and find better contracts like we've been able to lock in contracts six, seven weeks out from when you normally would you're not sort of just taking the best price you can get you're actually locking in the best price you can get.

Unknown Speaker  16:40  
Wow. So again that informed decision making that obviously helps helps you from a financial or commercial point of view.

Unknown Speaker  16:47  
Definitely the difference between I locked in contract and a spot price can be as much as 60 cents a keylock. So when when you're talking or 60 cents over over a 20 kilo animals That's a lot of money when you're talking about a double load. So, yes, it's, look, it's about making money on the commercial side. It's, it's what we do. And if you're not making money, it makes it very hard to proceed with an enterprise. Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker  17:16  
either side very quickly, doesn't it?

Unknown Speaker  17:18  
Yes. Yeah. The fading hasn't been very soon it's into it. So.

Unknown Speaker  17:23  
So it sounds like practical systems here for you really hit the sweet spot. You know, you mentioned it was a lot to get a set up, but it's really helped you if, if there was if there was a second, a second best alternative to be able to record data, what would that baby think what would be another alternative?

Unknown Speaker  17:41  
Going back 1012 years now, it really depends on which path you want to go down. There are some other breeding value. I know at work we use a free app put out by true test and this is purely on a on a commercial side of things to monitor and progress. What the whites have the catalog. And that's that's my hub, which is put out by treatise. It's it's very informative, but it is a very basic unit. It's purely a white time and gain measurement system. I spoke to about eight or nine different breeders when I was and not only here in Australia, but right across the weapon. Everyone had a different system and everyone all said the same thing. There's pros and cons. Yeah, I can't give you the name of another one.

Unknown Speaker  18:25  
That's all right. That's okay.

Unknown Speaker  18:29  
No, I know Gallagher has one and that links in with his way and the ID system. And I've heard the true test as well.

Unknown Speaker  18:36  
Yeah, yeah, that boy hub. As I said, it's very it's very easy and because it all links into each other, it does make it very easy.

Unknown Speaker  18:44  
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Beautiful. If someone wanted to find out more about practical systems where where would they go? First step is just go online.

Unknown Speaker  18:53  
Like a lot of the programs on I when we first looked at it, the simple thing we did was our farm management program. Ram likes pan fair, practical system and a few others I they all come up. They're all you look at them in this is all fairly similar. But do I do a free demo, I have a bit of a plier. And that's the whole idea of him. And you'll find work out. Now, this is a bit too daunting for me or, oh, now I'm quite, quite quite ofay with that, and you just go from there. So, fair, fair point pain program, one that came

Unknown Speaker  19:28  
up very good. You mentioned the sort of pen and paper or the Excel spreadsheet that I know a lot of people still use. And I know for you, you're, you've talked to me about, you know, trying to encourage breeders to change from that style of record keeping to something a bit more digital and a bit more intelligent, I suppose. But let's say you were at that stage with the sort of Excel spreadsheet. What do you think what are some of the essential things that a breeder and it doesn't, it doesn't have to be necessarily stud breeder, but what do they need to record the basics

Unknown Speaker  20:03  
of every case? So pedigrees are a must treatment dates, treatment types with holding periods. batch numbers are a big one and use by dates, even simple things of like rotations around the paddocks. So moving from one paddock to the next paddock, simple things like that, I still keep a diary of my everyday movements and what I do so it's a handy record to go back and have and you can go back and say, Oh, geez, this year seems a little bit drier or geography is getting away a little bit lighter than usual. I often go back three, four years in my doors and just signed out and it's surprising how often they're not the same same comment comes up and around the same time of year. So it's just it's just handy. Having a digitally makes it so much easier to look at and I still can you still need to have a written bass. I still carry a note. I pen and paper pen and paper around with me when I'm at work because you set aside on a job. All of a sudden you see something why I should go back and look at that bank. It's there. It's written down so

Unknown Speaker  21:12  
the pedigrees and you mentioned the batch numbers which, yeah, for vaccines, or or drenches, really

Unknown Speaker  21:17  
embarrassing ranges, chemicals, metal ties back to what we were talking about earlier with your LPI and MSI, because the last thing you want to do is send an animal or why that's still within a withholding period.

Unknown Speaker  21:29  
The impact of that do you think if that was to happen all I can

Unknown Speaker  21:32  
speak back from my agent STI, we would occasionally get one come through and you get a bright orange stick up, put on your pin, bicycle you every process or walk past it because they cannot handle it. So you're relying on a restock or based or a constant to deploy a stock which it can can really affect the market. So

Unknown Speaker  21:54  
I'm wondering if what would happen if you were for example, bringing your own shape to the app. Whereas a lot of small breeders would do, and sheep was arrived at the Avatar and I know you hadn't kept a record and it was still within the withholding period for a drench, for example, what would happen,

Unknown Speaker  22:10  
but I do have tests, which actually will bring it up. So you can't just lie about it any more about it, if you think you're going to get away with it, it's it's not not the case, under the contract, and you will have a contract with them, you basically will lose the value of that carcass. So they'll claim it as a no value animal, so you actually won't get paid for that animal. I have heard stories where a lot of 150 lambs were sent in and about 120 of them were of no commercial value, and simply because they still weren't within eyesight act and reporting period. So it's a very costly error.

Unknown Speaker  22:48  
And some of those, you know, side X's like 42 days or something like that, so it's quite long.

Unknown Speaker  22:54  
Donnie forget that. It's not only now that most our avatars are not only domestic They're also export a lot of people on you get sucked into thinking it's the withholding period. There's also the ASR or export slaughter into and more times than not that is actually longer than watch withholding periods. So just because you think, Oh, yes, that withholding periods are the export slaughter interval, maybe another 1014 days longer, and you're still in breach of it. And look that has caught a fair few people out in the past.

Unknown Speaker  23:25  
What do you think the export slaughter interval is longer? What's the reason for that?

Unknown Speaker  23:30  
I because once an international standard, and one's an Australian standard, the simplest thing is on you invade a book and the last two pages, yo, flip it over, everything's every chemicals written there. And so it's very simple to find. So this is where your record keeping is a must. And this is why I'm saying on like doing it online or doing it on a digital format. You can actually forget it like if I write it in a book, unless you physically Remember to go and write that down and go and look It Again, you may miss it. Whereas if I attach that record to a scan so now that AR DS are in for every land that gets drench it gets that record. Before we sell a lamb, we scan that lamb again. So we know it's going off our inventory if it's still within our withholding period, the old screen lights up red and we know how not we can't know we're in breach or something here so

Unknown Speaker  24:25  
so that suggests then that the data that you're keeping you're also linking that with your wand your livestock scanning wand.

Unknown Speaker  24:34  
Yes, yeah, the whole whole system out our scale Raider computer are one now our phones are all LinkedIn. So anytime an animal is scanned or handled, it then records that with handle that animal so it'll say that the animals come from it's pedic to the yard, so every time it's scanned, it says the animals and then we'll get a notice decide where do you want that animal to be moved to Because it can't stay in the US and it knows it can't stay in. And so we're we're getting a better idea of now which paddocks are producing more meat per acre because of the feed. And so now we're getting it's taking about six, seven years for us to get this far. But now we can say which paddocks we need to concentrate on improving or which paddocks might need a little bit more fertilizer or, or maintenance and, and it's, it's making our whole enterprise more efficient. So

Unknown Speaker  25:31  
what wand and scare weighing Are you using with the practical systems that work with anyone?

Unknown Speaker  25:38  
We're all true test. Ah, okay, so we're all true test.

Unknown Speaker  25:45  
The government in the wisdom a few year ago gave a heap of money out to when the ideas came in. And it was a perfect opportunity to go in and upgrade old systems. So we have every time we handle our shape now it comes through combi clamp sheep handler so we don't we no longer drenching a drop in a drenching race or anything like every sheep is always put over the handler we conditioned score we, we make sure it's in perfect health, anything that's not in perfect health we were able to draft off and maintain and and the program allows us to record the whole life history of that animal now so and that's what it's getting down to it. It's a whole whole life traceability and history. You've spoken about a lifetime you management course, this is basically just putting into practice what I've been taught all the way through

Unknown Speaker  26:38  
to tell me about the condition score and as there's something you're you're doing and then recording as well in the data

Unknown Speaker  26:43  
in on the condition scoring when we do our commercial use, because the good thing about the South DNS is they're always fair. We we have the opposite problem. We have to try and keep the condition of the South down. So we have a couple of Jenny Craig panics And like wait we prayed tested here yesterday and and the pearl blood scanning he's at all he couldn't get over the the condition of them and he said you must be fit and I said no I have I have not fit our southlands at all this year and he just couldn't believe it. The commercials when we drench I don't feel every shape you get to know shape as a running up you get a good look at it. So our three schools are failing over three and four are fairly obvious but the one we're drafting off that sort of two two and a half school so as we scan it if I think it's light I would instead of having words we have number assignments so so to score will assign to to it it'll draft off put it into a separate mob and then that mob mob or use will get a little bit more food or a little bit or the better paddock or something like that. So it's more about managing individual animals than it is as a mob. We don't preg test multiples or singles is either pregnant or not. Pregnant T, but we we manage our ship according to what their condition scores is, we find we get a better return than we are is because if you if you got 150 us all, twin laning that are a score between the score two and a half to score three, the heaviest shape are always going to get the better feet, they're always going to push the lightest shape out. So we're saying our results have been better when we've put oil school two and a half street together our threes and fours together and we get a much better result. And it's more efficient and clean.

Unknown Speaker  28:30  
And when are you making that decision about separating the mobs and what sort of stage of gestation

Unknown Speaker  28:36  
when we take the Rams out. So we join and then we take the Rams out and we go from there. So condition score, so we bring in the Marvin to take the Rams off if they need it normally correlates to about a second summer drench time, not always it's sort of really comes back to whether they're dependent but we still got to bring them in to get their hands off. So that's when we score and then leading into a session. Dude stop happening next week. We'll vaccinate them five and one prior to lambing, we'll give them a long acting and reassign them a paddock again, so we'll do it again then.

Unknown Speaker  29:11  
Yeah, yeah, that's when I was thinking perhaps is a good time for that I would be thinking of as well that that sort of lasts for six weeks or so.

Unknown Speaker  29:19  
Yeah, look, it's something we picked up have picked up from actually the cattle work I've done that, as you know, the the first two trimesters are of great importance, but the growth in your face is actually the most important in that third trimester. And if you overfeed, you cause trouble if you under feed you cause trouble so, that last trimesters, sort of really about maintaining optimum health for us so we get a healthy lamb on the grand Western Victoria winters can be quite fickle, and you want to give you every best chance and new best chance of supporting a live link.

Unknown Speaker  29:57  
So let's talk about the data preps for last Then. So when when you have probably talking here more commercial rather than also more stuff more than commercial. What do you record? What data do you record about your perhaps your stud lab?

Unknown Speaker  30:13  
Oh, right. So my maternity bag which comes around with me so we go around three times a day, we don't do any night time trips anymore we are finding when we take the one, so we'll do a birth wide number of lambs. So we're the single triplets. What how many survive whether whether there are any fatalities with you pedigree, then I'll do any coloration whether there's any because when southlands are first, I don't know whether they're very very short pelted and almost to the degree where they've got minimal pelt so you can have a good look to see whether there's any pigmentation like black spots here and there. I generally have a have a look record, whether they're the type of land layout, whether they're healthy, strong, And survivability, so I then go in the following day and double check everything again. So anything that's survival that isn't then updated the following day. So it's not that dissimilar to what a lot of stunts are doing. Yeah, the only difference sometimes you might see with a Southend breeder is they'll have a lot of lambs running around in what they call lamb wool coats.

Unknown Speaker  31:22  
Ah, yes,

Unknown Speaker  31:23  
yes. And that's purely because, as I said, the very, very prime because they've got such minimal downs will on them when they when they're born. So, today, that little extra bit of warmth, yeah, basically tried to avoid doing it. If I know we're going to have a wig like what we've had just gone, where you're going to market temperatures above eight or nine degrees or heiling South when that's the only time I'll quote him, but even then, he sort of, I'll probably only do the multiples I wouldn't even do the singles. They even last recorded. So I consider that a form simply Because that's a form of assistance it's probably helping the survivability of that land more so than what if I wouldn't and so I'll never use no matter how good a RAM is that I've coded I'll never actually use it simply because I say survivability of it even though it could have survived but I just I don't run the risk so interesting.

Unknown Speaker  32:22  
Yeah. And when you weigh your lambs what what are you using to weigh the lambs because sound like you're doing it in the paddock?

Unknown Speaker  32:30  
Yeah, in the paddock. Today, you can get beautiful digital hand scales. So I, I've got an old nappy bag, which lambs fit perfectly into. So that's that's how we walk around. So we have nappy bag and a digital set of hanging skulls and it breaks it down to the to the gram so it's very accurate. So and, and every animals white individually, so there's not like if it's a set of twins or a situation But it's not an average, right? It's an exact white for each each animal. So it's surprising how how the graphite work out later on when you when you monitor a ram that was born a triplet all the way through to the cycle time at eight months people say are sometimes twin can be a little bit down but it's surprising new growth rate is exactly a fan is exactly the same all the way through, if they've all got the same feed in front of them so

Unknown Speaker  33:27  
and then once you get that birth weight, you're putting that straight into your into your practical system software through

Unknown Speaker  33:34  
goes straight into my phone, so I carry my phone around with me. So what I do with the true test one, I have all my my fields set up in that. So first thing I do is scan, scan the tag and then I live data entry it so I'll do the sex then it's the dam and then I'll do features. So the black points is just a score out of 10 sorry about if it's Perfect one, it's a score one if it's far from perfect, it's score 10. And then and then the last one is, whether it's an A, like the assistant whether it required a coat or required helping with the birth. So that's the other thing. Like if I have to pull a lane, there's a birthing ease indicator on it as well. So anything that's required assistance always No. And I generally I end up because the South ends are renowned for beanies is your birth, or generally call anything that I've had to pull a lamb out of no matter how simple the pulling process,

Unknown Speaker  34:31  
see recording the performance of that you as well.

Unknown Speaker  34:35  
Yeah, everything's recorded now. Like, I never thought I'd go down this path. But when you see how it's how it affects your margins, and your profitability statement at the end of the term, it certainly makes sense.

Unknown Speaker  34:50  
What about Rams what data do you do Abdi gather extra data on your rounds extra growth rate data or extra netic data

Unknown Speaker  35:00  
I don't do genetic testing I do. I do stock scan. But that's purely because I have clients requesting I wouldn't do it I was how can I still believe 90% of my clients sell through a yard situation which is a visual market until they switch over to a system that requires me to have a Iran that is producing X amount of growth curve that I just can't see the value in. have also proven with our own enterprise, I can do it without the breeding values as such breeding babies have a point is not for me at the moment. So like, I'll record the white so that my rants from waning all the way I'll do it every every 28 days from waning all the way through the sale. And I've only weighed in this morning, actually, and I've noticed yet average growth over the last six years has been the same no matter what genetics I've used. In a way, there is a breeding value there. It's just my own version of it. So it's funny I often go to a lot of this small shows like Horsham or warble, and you get the foul. Ah, geez these lambs are just too small the South ends or Oh, they're just not as good as the door settled and not as good as a walk. And I often say right out, I get them to because I usually have a you and land so the kids can do that cute factor. We were talking about holding the lamb up shot, always get them to estimate the weight of the Lamb. Because I know what the lambs away and we're only talking about six, seven week old lamb and every time they have probably half the weight of what they actually are. I had one block up in Horsham he couldn't actually pick the lamb. And wow, he was pleasantly surprised. So as I say to a lot, it's not about size. It's about density.

Unknown Speaker  36:53  
And that's the muscle that you get with a with a size down.

Unknown Speaker  36:56  
Yeah. Oh, not only that little there's plenty of braids out there. So But as my mum said that my mum used to say about one of my brothers, we used to tease him about being a little bit on the thicker side and mum always just No, he's just like a CFO, and he's just big boned. And that's basically true of the shape as well. So just just densa they're not as big, but they're just as heavy. So Wow.

Unknown Speaker  37:21  
And if you are a stunt breeder, then and you were, you know, for example, you were thinking of breeding RAMs, what extra data do you think might be valuable to collect?

Unknown Speaker  37:31  
What's your spice? I think there's a lot of variability studies coming out. Oh, being done as we speak. birthing ease is a big one. But not only that, you got to make sure that the Rams are thrown to the traits you you're actually requiring, and what your breeding goal is, productivity is a big one. There's a lot of brands out there. I know that aren't being as productive, but the initial conception right should be well up into the 90s. There's a lot of rams that aren't doing that. At the moment, that's that's a big factor. So look just simple little things like that one you use are things like, like line breeding, like just making sure all the traits that you really desire are being passed through from generation to generation. Or if there's a fault that's come through from generation to generation, you can identify so

Unknown Speaker  38:19  
so sounds like you've, you've been able to create a very consistent line but you know, if you're getting the results and the figures at the end that you are that 98% How much do you think that's down to your line breathing

Unknown Speaker  38:34  
arguments a lot. But the other thing is, as a stockbroker, I haven't just settled for a Ah, Southdown shoe I've been very particular assigned to you earlier on before I even bought my first set, then I was going around recording people's data and what they were doing for three, three to four years prior to buying our first shoot. It was an all an old, very old board list of radar, essentially, one stop You guys, once you have a fault in, it's harder to get that fault out than it was to get it in. So never, never bring it in, in the first place not afraid to curl very hard if the shape doesn't meet my standard, no matter whose it is, and the girls have been a bit upset with me a couple of times, because I've had I've called the issue, but if it's not making the performance, that's there's no, no point having it. So

Unknown Speaker  39:24  
and when you say performance, you're meaning everything from mothering to condition scoring, to feed conversion, all that some stuff.

Unknown Speaker  39:33  
Yeah, yes, exactly. It's, it's got to perform. I don't look at my shape or shape or elite athletes on my farm that they have to perform at their optimum. And if they're not, you got to sum up. Is it something I'm doing as a as a farm or production was or is it genetics and, and that's where you can bring the data in and it makes that decision a lot easier. So

Unknown Speaker  39:56  
and what do you think when you look at the data what what is often the answer to That recording that you make

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