AO YUN - The Insider's Guide

This show is brought to you in association with iDealwine. 

In fiction, Shangri-La was a mythical place of boundless human wisdom and agelessness. These days, after China re-named a city in north-west Yunnan Province, it's the backdrop of a potential game-changer for Chinese wine.

This particular backdrop is forbidding. Think: precipitous mountain gorges above the raging Mekong River at nearly 3,000 metres altitude. A patchwork of small-holding vineyards cling to the hillsides. Prunings are fed to yaks. Tea, tobacco and mushrooms are Yunnan's historic crops. No wonder the wine potential in the Meili Mountain region long remained hidden.

That is, until a particularly stubborn and resilient Australian winemaker, Tony Jordan, embarked on an arduous search on behalf of global luxury group LVMH to unearth a Chinese Grand Cru terroir. He found Shangri-La. But would his bet pay off?

In this episode we discover the intriguing story of Ao Yun - how (on earth) it came to be, just how challenging this operation is to run, and most importantly - what's the wine actually like? At nearly £300 a bottle, it has a lot to live up to. We talk to winemaker Maxence Dulou, Chinese wine expert Janet Wang and Berry Brothers & Rudd Asia buyer Tom Baxter. We also deliver our verdict on the wine whose name means, 'soaring above the clouds'.

Thanks for tuning in. We love to hear from you so please do get in touch! Send us a voice message via Speakpipe. Or you can find contact info, together with all details from this episode, including some eye-catching photos, on our website: Show notes for Wine Blast S6 E21 - AO YUN: The Insider's Guide

Instagram: @susieandpeter

Sponsors: iDealwine

Chapters

• 0:31 Hello and welcome - what's coming up
• 1:05 Headline quotes
• 2:03 Setting the scene for Ao Yun
• 4:33 The search begins
• 5:51 Why Tony Jordan was the man for the mission
• 8:38 Shangri-La hoves into view
• 12:31 This wasn't going to be a walk in the park
• 21:56 Maxence Dulou's advice for wine (and life)
• 22:39 MID-EPISODE RECAP
• 22:57 What of the wine itself?
• 29:09 Janet Wang on Ao Yun
• 36:04 Is Ao Yun changing perceptions of China?
• 36:50 Tom Baxter of Berry Brothers & Rudd on Ao Yun
• 42:18 Janet Wang on Ao Yun's price
• 43:18 Maxence Dulou on Ao Yun's price
• 44:51 Our take on Ao Yun - and what it means for the future of China
• 49:55 Janet Wang on the future of Ao Yun and Yunnan
• 51:09 FINAL SUMMARY
• 51:41 OUTRO

Transcript

Susie: Leroy, Sassicaia, Smith Haut Lafitte... Ever tasted these wines? Do you know where to find them?!

Peter: Well, this episode of Wine Blast is brought to you in association with iDealwine, the Aladdin's cave for wine lovers delivering straight to your door. Visit idealwine.com for more. That's idealwine.com or find the link in our show notes.

Susie: Hello and welcome to Wine Blast! on this show we love to tell intriguing stories and boy, do we have one for you in this episode. Because we are talking Ao Yun, a wine that's all about adventure, ambition and changing the game.

Peter: But we're not talking Bordeaux or Australia here, we're talking China and a very particular part of China at, that where tea, Tibetan culture and towering mountains collide. Here's a taster of what's coming up.

Maxence Dulou: It starts with a dream to create a world class fine wine in China. We are in a very remote area, very far away from anything. We've got the longest ripening period of the world. So we are offering something different, that is unique and that is new. We are sharing an adventure and we write chapter every day together.

Janet Wang: Ao Yun is basically a statement. We want to explore frontier winemaking in China, but it has such an evocative story. You know, people buy into stories. You know, it appeals to the poetic and the scientific and adventurous side of all of us.

Susie: Ao Yun winemaker Maxence Dulou and Chinese wine expert Janet Wang there. we'll be hearing more from them as well as from Tom Baxter of Berry Brothers & Rudd. In due course we'll also be tasting this semi mythical wine and giving our verdict on what it might mean for the future of Chinese wine in general.

Peter: Now this episode follows on from the previous programme we did on Chinese wine, which was after your trip out there, I think, wasn't it, early on in season six. and I think it's a good place to start there because, you know, in that show we did briefly touch on Ao Yun and the wider Yunnan region, as I quote looking promising with Chinese wine expert ah, Natalie Wang describing Yunnan as being like the Burgundy of China versus Ningxia being its Bordeaux. sort of in terms of small scale production, elegant wines. I think that's what.

Susie: Yeah, M. I mean I think we'll put a link to that episode in our show notes, won't we? We also discussed Chinese wine in general and the Chinese wine market, which seems to be going through a fairly profound transition with overall consumption falling. But a younger, more educated wine consuming demograph coming onto the scene, who also seem more interested in drinking Chinese wine. So some interesting trends there which all tie into what we're talking about here.

Peter: Yes, indeed. So let's start by setting the scene and perhaps explaining why we're choosing to focus on Ao Yun And just to be really clear, that is two words. Ao, Second word, Y, U, N, A. Our pronunciation is not perfect. I apologise. We'll try. At its most basic though, this is a wine that's just hard to ignore. it costs about 280 pounds to 300 quid a bottle, so that's a statement in its own right. it's owned by multinational luxury group LVMH, you know, Louis Vuitton, Moet Hennessy, whose portfolio also includes things like Krug, Dom, Perignon, Chateau d'Yquem, Cheval Blanc in Bordeaux. and then there's where it's from.

Susie: Not just China, but Yunnan and more specifically the Meili Mountain area of Shangri La. Most ambitious wine projects in China to date have been in the big ticket regions like Ningxia or Shandong. And when the Ao Yun project was just a twinkle in LVMH's eye, Shangri La or the Meili Mountain region was basically a, remote backwater somewhere near Tibet. A, land of family small holdings at high altitude, clinging to steep valley sides above the raging Mekong River. The last kind of place you might expect a global luxury corporation like LVMH to end up.

Peter: So that's where we start our story, with a dream and a search. I sat down with Ao Yun winemaker Maxence Doulou to get the inside steer on the story by way of background. Maxence is originally from Bordeaux, but gamely joined the Ao Yun project in 2012, shortly before the very first vintage in 2013. And this is how he described how it all started.

Maxence Dulou: It starts with a dream to create a world class fine wine in China. And this is the adventure of creating a Grand

00:05:00

Maxence Dulou: Cru in China. And this dream start in 2008. And well you know that to make a Grand Cru you need to have a specific terroir. And so we searched during four years all around China from 2008 to 2012 to answer the question, are there some terroir capable to make this type of wine? And if yes, where it will be?

Susie: So there we have the big question. Is China capable of producing great fine wine? Something to challenge the Grand Crus of France and beyond, and if so, where?

Peter: And so the search began. now to get into the mindset of this search, I was thinking, and I thought my recommendation would be that we picture the Indiana Jones film, but, but the recent, you know, with a kind of mature Harrison Ford, to put it politely. Do you know what I mean?

Susie: I thought you were going to say the Simpsons. So I'm very happy that we're within Indiana Jones. That sounds fine.

Peter: With slightly older Harrison Ford. This particular Indiana Jones adventurer and treasure hunter was Tony Jordan. now sadly, Tony died in 2019, but he was a very highly regarded Australian winemaker who worked with LVMH all around the world, establishing, Domain Chandon Australia, for example, consulting, mentoring and teaching as he went. So why was Tony chosen for this mission?

Maxence Dulou: So Tony Jordan is a great winemaker, Austrian winemaker, and he was a perfect person to find this place because first of all, he was not afraid about moving mountain. Tony Jordan as an Australian, and he'd been all around China at 70 years old, which was very challenging then. He was a no compromise person, you know, and this is important because there's a lot of consultants, they can do a lot of compromise to get their cash at the end. And Tony would have said no if it was not possible. And the last point is, you know, there is two different style, of wine, you know, that you can do with the same terroir. Is all the power of the elegance and the terroir have a big impact on this also. And Tony Jordan was a winemaker of elegance, fine wine, you know, and he was preaching fine wine in Australia in the 90s, far before everyone. And so this particular point, help us to, to, to find a terroir, to get a terroir, capable to make fine fresh wine with, with a long ageing potential. So it starts with this, this long research by Tony Jordan in 2008.

Susie: And it was a long search, as Maxence says. For four years from 2008, Tony Jordan tirelessly scoured China, hunting for this needle in the haystack, the potential Grand Cru site. At times it must have felt like he was searching for El Dorado.

Peter: Of course, he visited the likes of Ningxia and Xinjiang, where summers are very hot and dry and winters are so cold the vines need to be buried. He also looked at Shandong and coastal regions, but the seasonal rains and risks of dilution and rot were a risk that gave him pause for thought. Of course, every region was keen to court the LVMH investment, but Tony stubbornly resisted the siren calls and kept plugging away.

Susie: Away until he found the mountain. and he didn't even need to move it. he heard about a warm, dry valley in the south of China in the Yunnan province, near the borders with Myanmar and Tibet. Now, Yunnan is more famous for its tea. Like Pu' er, it's incredibly naturally diverse, also known for growing tobacco and mushrooms, and apparently it's where cannabis originated. Either way, wine was far from being a headlining act in the area.

Peter: But Tony got wind of the fact that there were some vines growing in the Shangri La region in northwest Yunnan. To put this in geological and topographical context, it's the far eastern edge of the Himalayan uplift, with steep river valleys running north, south, and the Mekong River Valley was the one he honed in on.

Susie: so this is. This is low latitude. to give you an idea, it's similar latitude to Riyadh in Saudi Arabia or Luxor in Egypt, but what might otherwise be pretty warm conditions are tempered by the high altitude. So Tony's wine intuition kicked in and he went to visit.

Maxence Dulou: And there were some vineyards. Okay. And there were. So not a lot, but there were 200 hectare of vineyard in the valley of the Mekong at different altitudes from 2,000 to 2,600 metre. And so he'd been very surprised that nobody told him this. And he could also put some weather station to monitor the weather during few years and also come at different moment of the year to taste the grape,

00:10:00

Maxence Dulou: to see how the vine were growing. And he understood that it was possible to manage organically there because the climate was dry in us. And he tastes the grape, just before the farmer were harvesting, you know, and he saw the potential. So at the end, you never know when you look at the paper, when you look at the weather station. So it was fantastic to be able to have vineyards ready to make great wine if you change the way of managing them, but also to be able to taste the potential with your mouth.

Peter: So this was the light bulb moment. well, sort of, because things were still conceptual at this stage, of course, but the potential was there. Tony was thinking, could this remote mountain area actually be transformed into a Chinese Grand Cru? There was a lot riding on this decision. Not just money, but also reputation. So the pressure was on.

Susie: Yeah, I mean, having the precedent of vineyards in the area helped, of course. and while Yunnan wasn't really spoken about in terms of fine Chinese wine, this is actually an area with a fair bit of wine history in the Chinese context. French missionaries had brought grapes there in the late 19th century to make wine for the Eucharist. It wasn't great quality because it was made with hybrid grapes like rose honey, this being the time when phylloxera was busy wiping out vinifera vines in Europe. But it was proof of concept

Peter: This didn't go unnoticed. So when in the 2000s, the local government was looking to develop agriculture in the area to support local farmers, fight poverty and stem the rural exodus to big cities, wine was considered a valid option as a high value crop. So the authorities helped some local farming families plant a few hectares of mainly Cabernet Sauvignon and Cabernet Franc.

Susie: And this meant that when Tony Jordan arrived, he could see this pristine Cabernet vineyard giving healthy fruit in this amazing location. I mean, okay, it was being yielded very high and sold off to a big winery that blended it away. But this was the light bulb moment. He realised that if they could work to focus on quality with the farmers and local government, which is the ultimate landlord, they could make something special a bit different.

Peter: But it rapidly became clear this was not going to be a walk in the park. this is mountain territory. Steep gorges and river valleys, high altitude, remote, difficult terrain, a patchwork of small holdings. So one challenge was how to manage this. Currently, Ao Yun works across 32 hectares of vines. Now, 32 hectares of vines is pretty standard size for a sort of modest size wine operation under one owner. But in Ao Yun's case In Yunnan, those 32 hectares are managed by 120 different families. So how the hell does that work?

Maxence Dulou: I know it's, it's, it's a lot to m. It's, you need to be good in logistics, you know. But in China, Chinese are very good with logistics. But this is because, it is very small piece of land. It is, you have to understand. So we've got the variant between 2200-2600 metre M, okay, because it's at the latitude of middle of Morocco. So we compensate low latitude by altitude. And so it's very steep valley of the Mekong, being at 2,600 metre, we still have mountain, above us at 6,800, so there is 4,000 metre more above us. Very steep valley, very small terraces. And the villagers, they live in a virtuous circle, in autonomy because they are far away from everything. They are far away from civilization and they cannot do intensive agriculture because it's too steep and too fragmented. Okay, so each family have 0.5, 1 hectare maximum divide in 1020 different small block. And so this is why we've got so much family, because everything is done by hand. And so it's taking 2400 hours per hectare per year of manual work in the vanyard. Okay, to give you an example, 2400 for us, for the only vineyard managed, 100% by hand in Europe. Like in Switzerland, it's going to be 800. So it is more because it's more fragmented and it's more difficult and the climate is cooler. So we need to work a lot. But this is why we have a lot, of people, working in this land because very fragmented and everything is done by hand.

Peter: Does that not make it more expensive? And also it must be a diplomatic

00:15:00

Peter: challenge dealing with everyone's different interests.

Maxence Dulou: So for sure it's more expensive, it's very expensive to produce wines there. and it is a challenge. You know, we have the vineyard in four different villages. each village has different altitude, different soil, different climate, different exposure. When you are on the flat surface, exposure have a little impact. When you are on the steep slope, the exposure have a big impact. And then you've got the culture of the vil, you know. And so for example, out of the four village we want, we have one village named Sang at 2,300 metre. And we have to have a completely different, way of managing the farmers. And in shoze at 2,500 metre compared to Adong and Shidong. So each village will have his own identity. You have to understand that 10 years ago it was like two or three hours to go from one village to another village. Now it's like 40 minutes. so there is globally we try to organise this way is we have a team of young Chinese winemaker, passionated, you know, the more we go, the more they are local, local Chinese. So from, from Tibetan, from Tibetan culture, from Tibetan minority. Okay. Because we are at the border, we are in the north of Yunnan at the border of Tibetan province. So we are, we are. These are Chinese from different minority. And, and the local farmer, they are from Tibetan minority. So, so from one village to another village they have, they are Tibetan from Buddhism religion, but they have a different way of living. So we try to organise ourselves with this young Chinese winemaker, managing the vineyard. Then we've got one viticulturist assistant per village. Then we've got one viticulturist managing two village. Okay. And then we've got one vineyard coordinator managing the full village working with the assistant veticulturist in the village we've got a chief villager, which this one is local, helping the viticulturist assistant to manage the villager.

Susie: So this sounds complicated and expensive. Three times the man hours per season of even the most hand worked European vineyard. I mean Tony Jordan may have found it a great place for vines, but it's not the easiest for humans, especially those involved in a multinational wine group!

Peter: I mean it comes across as a huge logistical and practical challenge. and maybe also here we're sort of starting to get a feel for why this wine is so darn expensive to buy. But you know, we're going to come back to that. So, you know, I wanted to probe a bit more on the subject of these challenges. And Maxence's first response was about personnel and personal issues.

Maxence Dulou: after 12 years of experience, now I would say the most challenging is a human like in every adventure. and so for us it's difficult to find talent to come to live in our place because we are in a very remote area, very far away from anything. and so you cannot breed a family, you cannot have kids, take them to school. So we depend on young people that have the capacity to live happy in this remote area, with us, you know, and so the challenge is to find them and then to, to keep them motivated, to keep them growing, to limit the turnover.

Peter: And how have you found this adventure personally? Because as far as I understand you've lived out there and, and you've immersed yourself. How's it been for you as a personal experience beyond all the winemaking?

Maxence Dulou: Yeah, it was more family experience than personal. so I've been very lucky to have more agency offer me this opportunity, but then to have my wife ACcompany me with two kids of 3 and 4 years old. And I always say this, funny story that they employ me because of my wife, because before when I arrived I was a technical director. There was one manager above me that told me at the end of the trip in November to St Anthony, he told me, you know why we're going to take you, we're going to take you because of your wife. because if your wife is not happy, you are not going to stay here. And this is the basic of expatriation. But in this place in the middle of nowhere at 3300 metre, my family was living in Shangri La, going to Chinese school for the kids you need, supportive wife, very adventurous, more than me. So I've been very lucky to have my wife support me since the beginning, and she was happy to do this. So this, and I think this was, a very good investment, in life for, for us.

Susie: Now that's what I call dedication to the wine cause. Maxence and his family are back in France now, but he's, he's in China three months a year. And as he said, they're trying to build up the local team as much as they

00:20:00

Susie: can, which is surely wise, you know, but this is a proper wine adventure.

Peter: Yeah, yeah. So, so, you know, we've got a remote high altitude location, you know, challenging local politics, as we've heard, difficult for personnel and logistics. Maxence, added that a related challenge is kind of to retain the vital knowledge they're gaining with every new vintage if they do have an inevitable turnover, of personnel. Because, you know, while they can take advice from all over the world, ultimately it's only the reality of their immediate situation that can teach them what to do, you know, and they can't afford to be making the same mistake repeatedly.

Susie: No, no. So we've mentioned the high altitude and that is another challenge, isn't it? apparently, for example, when it comes to making the blends for Ao Yun, a pretty standard procedure anywhere else, you get your team together and you work it out. Here they have to bring all the wines down to sea level to taste before they can blend, because, as Maxence explains, the winery is at 2,600 metres altitude, so there's 25% less oxygen up there and very dry air. So your body and taste functions are impaired. So even the simple things are complex.

Peter: So many, many challenges makes for a great story, doesn't it? But I think overcoming those challenges, making it all worth it, that's the real story. and that's what we'll be coming on to next. Meantime, I did ask Maxence, who's a pretty laid back, kind of relaxed character. I asked him what one thing he learned about life or wine from doing this project. And this is what he, relax.

Maxence Dulou: Relax a little bit. the result will be better if you relax.

Susie: I actually love that as general advice for life. so, yes, we're now going to come on to the, the juicy bits. What's the wine actually like? How has it changed since the debut 2013 vintage? Does it justify its ambitious price tag? Who buys it? And what does all this mean for China? But first, a pause by way of brief recap. So far, it took an exhaustive search, ambitious vision, plus significant logistical and diplomatic skills to bring Ao Yun to life. But Would this big bet on China's fine wine future pay off?

Peter: So I think it's time we honed in on the wine itself. now they do make more than one wine as part of this project. They make sort of small quantities of individual wines from each of the four villages, for example, but the main focus is on their top blend, Ao Yun. their latest vintage, the 2021, is a blend of 57% Cabernet Sauvignon, 19% Cabernet Franc, 12% Merlot, 6% Syrah, and 6% Petit Verdot. I'm always m. Slightly, annoyed if those actually end up adding up to 100. I think that point probably does. It's 60% aged, ah, in stoneware jars and glass vats. It's 40% aged in barrels for 12 months. So I asked Maxence why that mix of grape varieties in this place.

Maxence Dulou: Cabernet Sauvignon was planted before we arrived, but it was good for us because we don't do a cultivar wine. We do terroir wine. So the Cabernet Sauvignon is a translator. Okay? And we are happy with this translator because it has the potential of elegance, finesse, ageing, potential complexity. it's a translator that is using Bordeaux also, but is going. The terroir of Bordeaux is completely opposite as our terroir, and so the wine of Bordeaux are opposite as our wine. You know, the Cabernet in our place is doing, wine very different.

Peter: But you've also got some other varieties now, haven't you? You've got Syrah, Petit Melrot. Anything else at the moment?

Maxence Dulou: The main translator is Cabernet Sauvignon. And Cabernet Franc is always, more than 80%, usually of the blend. And then in 2013, we planted a little bit more Cabernet, but we added indeed, Petit Verdot, Syrah, Merlot, and even a little bit of Sangiovese that is not in production yet because this one we added later and a little bit of Malbec that we added a few years ago or so that, but is not yet, vinified. We mainly do one wine that we name Ao Yun, that is a blend of the best grape of the four villages, from 2100 to 2600 metres. What is best for us? And under this climate, best for us is not the most powerful. Best for us is the most elegant, the most complex, with the right level of freshness. Too much fresh going on the Greenness, we don't put too varietal. If it's tasting like Cabernet, we don't put. This is the best for us. The best is expressing the place, expressing the vintage through finesse and elegance. So this is

00:25:00

Maxence Dulou: this load that we blend together to do our yun, every year, translating the terroir and the vintage the best we can.

Peter: How would you sum up the essence of this place as expressed in the wine, in just a few words?

Maxence Dulou: So I think if we go, we have a cool climate globally, and this is expressed in the wine. If we want to synthesise the climate is globally cool with the end of season, that is ripening the grape very slowly. So very interesting parameter is we've got the longest growing period, ripening period of the world. We harvest sometime Cabernet Sauvignon until end of November because of specificity of the climate, the shade of the mountain, the coolness of the night, the altitude. So globally, we've got climate that is cool and this is translating into the wine, into a paradox between freshness and ripeness. In terms of aroma, I would say, then in terms of, balance, you've got a paradox and a uniqueness, again unique paradox that you don't find in other wine, between tension and density. You know, you've got this acidity. We've got acidity of white wine. You know, when you do the analyse in the laboratory, you measure the total acidity, the pH we call it, and the pH that we have. for example, in the vintage 2020, it's 3.35, so it's a pH of white wine. Okay. This is unique in the world of fine Cabernet, to have this freshness in the balance and it's balanced with other components that make it very well balanced. and finally, you've got very soft tannin coming from the strong UV light. So at this altitude, you've got stronger, UV light. The sun is stronger. This is why the Tibetan people, they have a brown skin because it's sunny, but also the sun is strong. And this is going to create a thicker skin. So the skin is going to protect from the sun with being thicker. So we will have more components into the skin, more tannin and more colour. Okay? So we've got a lot of colour in our wine. You, have to understand that colour is proportional to softness in the wine. The more you have colour at the same quantity and quality of tannin, the more you will have soft texture. And then also these UV light are very Strong so they managed to ripe bitter. The tannin of the skin and the tannin of the seeds. So it's going through the skin even if it's sick and it's permitted to have a riper seeds tannin. so this is a specificity also of our wine. There is a velvety, texture, and finally there is a kind of salinity minerality that you can find also from this terroir.

Susie: Really interesting that he's looking more than anything for elegance and freshness, complexity from the long season and soft tannin. Not too fresh or too varietal, but balanced.

Peter: Yeah, yeah. And we'll come on to how that may have evolved over time and also what we make of the wine too. but meantime, I think we should bring in Janet Wang. And Janet is an award winning wine writer, author of the Chinese Wine Renaissance, which we referenced in our last episode too. she's followed Ao Yun closely over the years so we wanted to get her take on the project and the wine.

Janet Wang: I am a huge fan of what Ao Yun has achieved in China, first of all, you know, just by putting Yunnan on the map. And not just for the world, but also for Chinese people themselves. You know, for generations we've been told, luxury goods come from the Western world, you know. And Ao Yun is basically a statement to say China offers such a vast terrain. Interesting terroirs. We want to explore frontier winemaking in China. And it's a statement of intent from beginning and also when the wine has come out. It's a luxury good, but it has such a evocative story. People buy into stories. It appeals to the poetic and the scientific and adventurous side of all of us. So I think it's a fabulous success story. It's really elevated the whole Shangri La, Yunnan, area as a production, wine producing region, attracted a lot of ah, smaller wineries, boutique wineries to set up in Yunnan now as well. and also tourism. You know, it's brought on a lot of positive impact to the region. as a wine itself. I personally think it's a fabulous wine. It, it has this

00:30:00

Janet Wang: really. You do taste the high altitude, you know, the, the ethereal quality. yes, it's a Bordeaux blend so you can draw a comparison to you know, like Lafite, Pauillac. but it also has this very specific terroir feature of Shangri La, of the high altitude, of these clouds and shades. And it for me it has a lovely sort of temple Incense, which is very Asia to me on, on the finish. And yeah, so I think it's a fantastic wine to, to, to, to showcase a top quality China terroir Yeah.

Susie: And you know, you talk about it so beautifully and, and evocatively. has that changed over the years? I mean presumably you're talking about our university today. The first vintage was 2013. Have you seen it evolve?

Janet Wang: Yes. In fact, you know, the incense I'm talking about is probably the earlier vintages rather than late. I think over time, you know, they have worked out more precisely which plot does best with what grapes and also how much oak, how much terracotta, pot the jars they use to age the wine. So over time there's a, you know, you can, can feel the wines is getting more precise. In fact it's ah. The later vintages I've tasted are actually more structural, leaner in style than the earlier ones, which is a, perhaps a bit more floral forward. but all through all the vintages I think you can say the balance is fantastic. And there's always this elegance, you know, because it's high altitude, it does have generous fruit but also this lovely acidity freshness to balance it. yeah. And it's a very elegant wine throughout the vintages.

Peter: Very interesting. And just to add a minor tangential point, Ao Yun translates as soaring above the clouds, which of course points to the altitude but also a bit what Janet is getting at, that sort of freshness and ethereal quality she describes in the wine.

Susie: Janet also said other wineries have now set up in Yunnan. She mentioned the likes of Celebre, Xiao Ling, Sacred Land, a smaller premium wineries. Also on the larger scale side, Yunnan Winery, which has apparently improved since Ao Yun was established. And beyond the Bordeaux varieties, she also tipped Marsalan and Chardonnay as grapes that perform well here. Also ice wine as a sweet option for something a bit different.

Peter: And of course Penfolds I saw, you know the, the Australian producer that sells so well in China. Penfolds are also now making wine from Yunnan, albeit as part of a cross regional blend as far as I can make out. But you know, I was interested in Janet's point about Ao Yun being a statement of intent about a premium luxury product that's not Western in origin but Chinese. She said a bit more about this.

Janet Wang: I think actually it's a very smart business move from LVMH's perspective because there are a lot of luxury, goods. Goods, purchases, in, in China, you know, people love buying luxury goods. But for, you know, several generations we've been told, you know, luxury goods come from the West. But it's almost unfortunate that China is associated in recent decades with ah, low cost manufacturing. But if you go to a museum and look at things that the Chinese used to make, you, you know, it's a country, you know, that is very into sort of good ah, taste and can innovate and be very creative. so what Ao Yun has said is basically we can make a luxury product in China which is offering very unique terroir features. And in recent years Chinese people, as you know, China has got, become richer. You know, we talk a lot about cultural confidence, which is to say why do we always look to the west for luxury? You know, for, for some sort of definition of high quality. You know, actually what we could show the world is actually we have something to say as well and we have something to offer too. And Ao Yun is one of the best examples of showcasing, you know, a luxury brand, making a, really high quality and unique product, out of China. So Chinese consumers I think are beginning to embrace this concept as well.

Susie: Do you think the fact it is LVMH, does that help in this transition to understanding that China can make its own luxury goods?

Janet Wang: Oh, it does. I think undoubtedly the fact that the LVMH is doing owing has a,

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Janet Wang: is a great confidence boost to the whole Chinese wine industry.

Peter: I also asked Maxence about this same point, whether Ao Yun was changing perceptions of China and what Chinese wine is capable of.

Maxence Dulou: I think we are part of this team helping proving to the world that China can make excellence. So changing the mentality towards China, Chinese and made in China, very small scale. But this is what we are doing. We are doing excellence in China. And a lot of people have preconceived ideas that is not possible. And we are doing it every day thanks to a lot of work, attention to detail and commitment and passion, from a fantastic team. And it's made by Chinese. I'm the only foreigner, you know, it's made 100% by Chinese.

Susie: Now we are talking luxury products here. So we have to come onto price and commercial reality. And to do that we talked with Berry Brothers and Rudd Asia buyer Tom Baxter, who's based in Hong Kong. First up though, we wanted to get his take on Ao Yun as a wine.

Tom: It's a very interesting label to discuss because I think it very neatly sums up some of the the ambition that is alive in the wine production of China, it is one which I think is also climbed in quality very, very quickly. We're talking about a wine which had its, you know, the first vintage in 2013. it is one that I've had the chance to taste a number of times back in that time when it was first coming onto the market, the first vintage of 2013. But what I've seen happen is that in the style of the wine, I remember it being very concentrated, quite sort of pointed in acidity as you might expect, that elevation. It's the tannin profile I think, and the balance of the tannin profile versus the generosity of the mid palate of the wine which I think has changed the most. And very quickly, I remember it being impressive. I remember it having quite a marked oak, component to the profile back then. but most recently tasting the 2021 which was released quite recently, it is much more polished. There's much more harmony really at this early age between the oak, the sort of, the quite compact tannins because there's quite a lot of UV radiation at that elevation of course. And clearly it manages to be a wine which has got a lot of ageing potential with the concentration, but it's still approachable and they've managed to make the core of the fruit sort of come to the fore quite a bit more, which is quite impressive. So I really saw quite a difference there.

Peter: Interesting how he's seen the evolution of the wine. Janet said something similar, didn't she, about it becoming more refined. You know, the result of sort of refining the blend and winemaking. And actually I did quiz Maxence about this and he confirmed that after the first few vintages they did start, start very consciously working to tame, you know, to manage the concentration and power of the fruit and the tannin in the wine to sort of promote delicacy and improve ageing potential.

Susie: But to come back to to commercial matters, we wanted Tom to talk about where the wine sells and how it goes down commercially. He said he'd seen it in North America, Hong Kong, Singapore and the uk. And Maxence confirmed that sales were roughly a third each in North America, Asia and Europe, with a significant chunk sold in China itself. I asked Tom who was buying Ao Yun.

Tom: I think it might still be easy, a little early to say, generally speaking, even very open minded and informed consumers are still really dipping a toe, as it were, into Chinese wine, particularly very premium, beautiful Chinese wine. You know, it's it's something as a category that's been around in even a mass market retail in the UK since, you know, the late 2000s, around 0809 or so, remember? So it's, it's been around in even mature markets. But the fact that they're still, I think, trying to lock in their customer base, their collector base for the future as well, I think shows that the progress is still relatively slow, but doesn't mean it's any less exciting. I feel as though. So identifying the target market for the future is one of the big challenges that Ao Yun faces, but Chinese wine as a whole faces. It's a question that I feel is still being answered at the moment.

Peter: So not a very clear picture and a tough sell, but not without potential. he did also say that Chinese wine needed a narrative point of difference or specialisation that people could hang their hats on, on, as it were. We might just come back to that briefly.

Susie: Yeah. I also asked Tom about price, because at nearly £300 a bottle, that's going to have a commercial impact. he said the price signalled the ambition of the project. And now that critically acclaimed vintages like 2020 and 2021 are coming on stream, the maths was starting to add up.

Tom: That said, the challenge it poses to people who are already seasoned wine collectors, is that they are going to be a bit more market savvy than your average wine consumer. And so they're immediately going to think, well,

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Tom: for a more known entity, to me, I can pay the same amount and get X, Y and Z Chateau in Bordeaux that I've been buying for 10, 15 years. Possibly therein lies the challenge to succinctly communicate the excitement around the project, the ambitions for the future and most importantly, I think the style of the wine. Wine and why, why it's different because if you drink it alongside a bottle of Bordeaux, it is, it is markedly different. There is a more insistent feel to the tannins. The acidity is really energising. There's a real tension to it. So I think when it comes to merchants such as us selling it or anyone else who wants to sell it, it's all the more incumbent, I think, on us to, to get that message across. When it comes to something like Brunello or Bordeaux or Napa Cabernet, there's kind of so much of that work has been done in the background because its target market is established, people know what the style is and a, lot of the time there's commercial awareness of different brands. All of those things that I just listed don't really apply for Ao Yun. So I think those are the challenges that lie ahead.

Peter: We also asked Janet about Aoyun's pricing, and this is what she said.

Janet Wang: To be fair, I think there is appeal and demand for wines at every price. You know, our is not trying to pretend that it's, every person's wine. It is trying to tell a story about frontier winemaking. And it is to say, how much can we push to discover, new regions, new ways of making wine? And I think probably above £20, we're all buying into some sort of brand and story, right? And. But Ao Yun has the strongest story, one of the strongest story you'll find, I think. And therefore I think pricing is fine. Because if you look at their portfolio, right, you're talking about Yquem and Krug, all that stuff. And Ao Yun is one of the most expensive wines they produce. You know, the cost for them is very high.

Susie: which is a fair point, one we touched on earlier. Finally, here's what Maxence had to say about Ao Yun's price.

Maxence Dulou: First of all, we are not, sharing, another, version of Margaux terroir on a Napa Valley terroir. We are offering a new terroir expression. So we are offering something different, that is unique and that is new. Then we've got, this fantastic, this unique way of working. We do everything by hand. you know, everything is, very sustainable. So we are working with villager, and we are organic since the first vintage. But we are much more than organic. We live in this virtual circle as a villager live in the virtual circle with, So they have some plant the vineyard feeding the animal. So they feed the animal with a cane. In winter, they give the cane to the yak. during the season, they give the leaf to the pig, and they remove the grass, the weed. And so there is this virtuous circle that is really, really, really unique, and that we cultivate. And finally, we have this fantastic adventure to share. And we, we. We, we. We are not sharing 200 years of history. We are sharing an adventure. And we write chapter every day together.

Peter: What price to put on adventures, on a great story, you know, selling the dream. okay, so on this somewhat esoteric note, I think we should bring things back down to earth and taste this wine we've been jabbering about so much, and say what we think. Here we go.

Susie: Good call. I'm in There already. okay, so. So I tasted the 2015 and, the 2020 vintages in fairly quick succession, and I wasn't so impressed with the 2015. I found it a bit chunky and big and. And slightly hollow, maybe sort of tying in with what Tom and Janet were alluding to. Certainly. I didn't really think it justified its price tag.

Peter: Yeah. And then the 2020?

Susie: totally different story. this is the one that we have got here and it's an absolutely terrific wine. Yeah. Ah. In intense nose of bell pepper, tobacco leaf and cedarwood and also rich, dark BlackBerry fruit. And what you notice immediately on the palate is the texture. The tannins are so fine, they're almost fragrant and they're. There's an ethereal and exotic quality to the wine and I would say there is some warming alcohol, but it's just so incredibly accomplished and refined. There's definitely a cabernet character, but it also has its own identity. it's really hard not to be impressed by this wine, even taking the price into account.

Peter: I agree. It's a very impressive wine, isn't it? It's. It's so kind of. It is a sort of pristine

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Peter: quality to it. Very fragrant and, as you said, fine texture. You know, I. I think lots of people will love this wine, and I mean, love this wine. It's a kind of beautiful blend of intensity and elegance.

Susie: Yeah. I mean, but what. What did you make, though, of the 2021, which is the current release, as we're recording?

Peter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, similarly impressive in a different style. It's, you know, it's got the same sort of dark colour and. And tonnes of rich, ripe, dark fruit, initially on the nose, but then also roasted pepper and leafy tones emerge. And, you know, over time, a kind of. Kind of sweet spice comes out in the glass. Almost sort of incense, with hints of dried flowers and molasses and blood orange peel. But, you know, it was the palate that impressed me most. It has a real freshness and finesse that just lifts all that complexity with a kind of weightless quality. It's almost balletic across the palate You know, the tannins are so fine, fine and precise. It has none of the thickness and heft you might expect, partly from the nose as well. It's all about poise and grace. I'd say slightly leaner and tauter than this 2020. in style, but in a good way. You know, it's very stylish and balanced. Really impressive. Easily the best Chinese red I've tasted.

Susie: Bold words, and a lot of them.

Peter: Sorry, I was on a roll.

Susie: I was just enjoying my 2020.

Peter: Well, that's works.

Susie: But, you know, I think if you sum it all up, what we essentially like is the fact these wines are not overdone, which is what you always fear from an ambitious, newish, lavishly funded wine project. That may have been the case with the early vintages, if my 2015 verdict is anything to go by. But now they're clearly working on creating elegance and refinement in the wine, and that's absolutely the right way to go, in my view.

Peter: Yeah, this is an important point. I know. I completely agree. You know, that there's always a temptation to pander to the market, to fear the market almost isn't there? Especially from what I understand in the Chinese market, where they do tend to like sweeter, rounder, easier going styles of reds. But, you know, I totally agree. I think if Ao Yun wants to build a global reputation for being a Grand Cru wine, it needs to be refined and serious and age worthy, not just big and oaky and hefty, you know, because that style of wine rarely stands the test of time.

Susie: No, no, you're right. As. As well as being elegant, it also needs to be distinctive. It needs to have something unique to say. And I think you do get a sense of that in those sweet spices, that ethereal and exotic and lifted quality. That's definitely there. And it would be great to see that distinctively of the wine developing over time, too. And a slightly lighter bottle, I'd say.

Peter: That would be nice, too.

Susie: Either way, you do feel this wine does have the potential to be a game changer for China.

Peter: Well, these are big words, too. You're coming back at my big words. Even bigger words. Okay, that's. Hey, you heard it here first, folks. And I suppose you could ask, as we did in our last episode on China, where the Cabernet Sauvignon is, is, or should be the grape of the future for China. You know, did the grape this wine's based around. But I guess, you know, if it works, as it clearly does here for Ao Yunm there's no reason to throw the baby out, with the bathwater It just works. It's good wine, you know, why change it? But, you know, I also agree it's a good idea to try other things, as they clearly are with Syrah Sangiovese, you know, why not? And hopefully, you know other producers will experience experiment in Yunnan too, as Janet said, to see what else works there.

Susie: And on that note, this is how Janet said she sees the future for Ao Yun.

Janet Wang: Yunnan in general is one of the most exciting wine regions coming from out of China. So for me personally, I'm seeing a lot of free thinking, a lot of freedom to experiment. Because they are small production, they don't have the huge pressure of having to shift volumes so they can really try new things, even that. And also because they're slightly latecomer, they have learned a few lessons so they don't have to go through exactly the same path and make the same mistakes as some of the other regions, you know, in terms of trying out varieties and styles. So there's a lot of freedom, potential and creativity in the winemaking, which you can feel drinking Yunnan wine. It feels like a, very poetic artistic hand that's been involved in the winemaking process. So yeah, so I think it's a very, very exciting region.

Peter: Tom Baxter also described Ao Yun's future as bright. So as we look to the future, time to wrap things up. By way of closing summary, Ao Yun is not only an impressive, distinctive wine with an intriguing story to tell, it also has the potential to be a game changer

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Peter: not just for the Yunnan province, but also Chinese wine as a whole. Is it a defining Chinese Grand Cru? Time will tell. Either way, this is a story well worth following. And if you can tasting

Susie: We'll put wine details, photos and maps on our website shown notes. Thanks to our interviewees, Maxence Dulou, Janet Wang and Tom Baxter. And thanks to you for listening. Until next time, cheers.

Peter: Thank you for listening right to the end of the programme. you deserve some sort of medal or maybe a glass of fine wine, whatever. either way, if you're a regular Wine Blast listener, you'll know we do occasional sports sponsorships, both episodic and headline. you might not have thought of this, but if you're involved with a company, brand or region who could benefit from exposure to a top notch global community of wine lovers, get in touch.

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