There's Prosecco - and there's Conegliano Valdobbiadene

This show is brought to you in association with iDealwine. 

What's the difference between Prosecco - and Conegliano Valdobbiadene Prosecco Superiore DOCG? Why is Prosecco a 'democratic' wine?! And do you want to hear Peter change his mind??!!

Tune in for all this and more, where we go on an intriguing journey of discovery into the UNESCO-endorsed, vine-clad hills of Conegliano Valdobbiadene territory north of Venice. We ask why the wines made here are different from your average Prosecco, what is the Martinotti method that is so vital to production of these wines...and should we really be ageing our best Prosecco now?!

Bringing this world to life for us are Diego Tomasi, former researcher turned director of the Conegliano Valdobbiadene Prosecco consortium, and producer Sara Meneguz. We also taste through some of the region's top wines and issue our own verdict on the wines and the region.

Mentions of the following occur along the way: Dolly Parton, hogback, Polaroids, heroic viticulture, Afghanistan, kiwi fruit, dinghies, aroma symphony, and the importance of patience.

Thanks to the Consorzio Tutela del Vino Conegliano Valdobbiadene Prosecco for sponsoring this episode. This is the final show in Season Six - we will be back very soon for lots more fun, chat and great wines in Season Seven. Until then - cheers!

Thanks for tuning in. We love to hear from you so please do get in touch! Send us a voice message via Speakpipe. Or you can find contact info, together with all details from this episode, including maps and wine recommendations, on our website: Show notes for Wine Blast S6 E23 - There's Prosecco, and then there's Conegliano Valdobbiadene

Instagram: @susieandpeter

Sponsors: iDealwine

Chapters

• 0:31 Hello and welcome
• 1:10 Taster quotes
• 2:00 We're talking Prosecco...but not just any old Prosecco
• 2:40 A confession from Peter
• 3:22 Susie differs - after visiting back in 2003
• 4:49 Setting the scene
• 10:29 Diego Tomasi interview
• 29:05 Thoughts on Diego Tomasi's words
• 32:03 MID-EPISODE RECAP
• 32:39 Sara Meneguz interview
• 44:49 Thoughts on Sara Meneguz's words
• 45:50 Tasting and recommending Conegliano Valdobbiadene wines
• 52:57 CLOSING SUMMARY
• 53:32 Outro

Transcript

Susie: Hello, and welcome to Wine Blast with me, Susie Barrie and my husband and fellow Master of Wine, Peter Richards. Now, this one's a special one because it's our season six finale! But that's not all.

Peter: No, indeed. Hello! In this episode, we're going on an intriguing journey of discovery into the beautiful hills of Conegliano Valdobbiadene, north of Venice, to explore why there's Prosecco and Prosecco And it may involve something of a confession, and a learning curve, for me, more on that in a bit. Meantime, here's a taster of what's coming up.

Sara Meneguz: I love Prosecco because I define Prosecco a democratic wine. Everyone can have joy from a glass of Prosecco You don't need to be a wine expert. And every moment of the day is a good moment, for a toast with a glass of Prosecco

Diego Tomasi: Not all the Prosecco is the same. The differences arise, from many factors that can be summarised in one word: terroir. Our wine is not an entry level wine, is not an easy sparkling wine.

Susie: An insight into two sides of the same coin there. Producer Sara Meneguz from Vini Sara Meneguz and Diego Tomasi, director of the Conegliano Valdobbiadene Prosecco Consortium. We'll be hearing more from them in due course.

Peter: Yes, we are talking Prosecco in this programme, but not just any old Prosecco So thanks to the Consorzio Tutela del Vino Conegliano Valdobbiadene Prosecco for sponsoring this episode. we'll be tasting some ConVal wines. I'm just throwing that in there. ConVal Just a slightly easier way of saying it. Handy abbreviation that spares our blushes from. From our poor Italian pronunciation. Apologies.

Susie: You did pretty well there.

Peter: I just. Just raced through it, really.

Susie: Don't expect the same from me.

Peter: Had a glass of the lovely stuff before added, and it's all fine. Anyway, we're doing that towards the end of the show and m, you know, very illuminating these wines are too.

Susie: Indeed they are. And they're sitting here winking at us now. So let's get started. And I think there was something you wanted to get off your chest, didn't you?

Peter: So many things. Where do I start? should I limit it to Prosecco? Just Prosecco for Today TV Prosecco and yes, you know what? I have to confess, you know, I have been something of a Prosecco sceptic, in the past. Maybe, I don't know, maybe Prosecco ambivalent would be closer to the truth. Just no massively strong feelings either way. But certainly, you know, Prosecco not my first port of call on the sparkling front. which is why I was intrigued to do this episode, you know, to see if learning a bit more about the subject you're tasting in a bit more detail. Being allowed to have that time and the wines to try would change my mind. But you are slightly more of a long term fan here.

Susie: Yeah, I really am. I would happily drink it over many things.

Peter: But you kind of visited the region, didn't you? What was it back in. Back in 2003, wasn't it?

Susie: Oh, God. Crikey, that sounds a long time ago now, doesn't it? yep, yep. But I love the place. You know, I challenge anyone to visit those beautiful hills and not fall in love with the landscape and the people. But what's really interesting is that the piece I wrote for Wine magazine after my trip there was very much an educational one because Prosecco really wasn't very well known at the time. It was still something of an insider's wine, which only experts or regular Venice visitors kind of knew about.

Peter: That's so interesting because you kind of assume Prosecco has been popular for ages.

Susie: Forever.

Peter: It's everywhere nowadays.

Susie: Yeah, yeah. I mean, literally, the article for an example. In the article I wrote, I said, 'Prosecco is finally making its mark as the aperitif of the moment. The only problem is that not enough of us know about it. And the only places really pushing it are smart Italian restaurants.'

Peter: Posh Italian restaurants: another one of your natural habitats... Right? It is hard to believe. it's a really interesting bit of context. and that's what, 20 odd years ago, you know, so not that long. And so much has happened in that time, clearly. so maybe we should back up a bit to set the scene.

Susie: Yeah, good idea, good idea. So, I mean, these days we all know Prosecco right? You know, Kylie's got one, Dolly Parton's got one, Andrea Bocelli's got one, Graham Norton's got one, everyone's got one. And if you look at the figures, 660 million bottles of Prosecco were produced in 2024, which is a record breaking figure representing a market value of deep breath, 3.6 billion euros. And, this is a category that's been growing seemingly exponentially since the turn of the century, going from 155 million bottles, 493 million in 2018 and now 660 million plus today. You know, and Rose Prosecco you know, new category created in 2020

00:05:00

Susie: is now selling 60 million bottles.

Peter: That's just staggering, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely staggering. Firstly, there wasn't a Rosé Prosecco category before and now that it's come from nowhere in a couple years, I mean, this is, this is popular stuff, right?

Susie: Yeah, it really is.

Peter: But this is just one side of Prosecco you know, variously described as sunshine in a glass or wines and I quote, 'created to slake the thirst of a bubble hungry but budget conscious world.' It's the other side of, Prosecco we're going to explore in this programme, where it all began. You know, the hilly heartland of the Glera grape and the Prosecco DOCG wine, before the vineyards sprawled down the hills onto the plains of Treviso and beyond, paving the way for these kind of record breaking figures from the DOC that you're quoting.

Susie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so our focus here is the hills around the towns of, as you say, Conegliano and Valdobbiadene which give their name to this special region. This is historic wine country. Conegliano has one of Italy's oldest winemaking schools. You know, it's also striking terrain known as a, hogback or humpback landscape, where the geology has created what look like parallel waves of hills breaking against the sides of the Dolomite mountains to the north and west. The Glera grape variety has made itself thoroughly at home here and vineyards literally blanket the hillside.

Peter: So this is where Prosecco as we know it began. Historic writings show, it was renowned for its fragrance and lively appeal. 18th century poet Aureliano Accanti wrote that he wanted to sacrifice my mouth for that apple aromatic Prosecco that said, it wasn't actually until the late 19th century that Prosecco became the sparkling wine we know today after Italian Federico Martinotti developed a method to referment the wine in special pressurised tanks known as autoclaves or autoclaves rather than in bottle as per Champagne. And this technology was later patented by Frenchman Eugene Charmat.

Susie: Now, historically, both the grape and the wine were known as Prosecco and the DOC Conegliano Valdobbiadene was created in, 1969. But as the Prosecco category started to boom in popularity in the noughties, Italian authorities wanted to encourage growth as well as protect this valuable product against competitors from elsewhere. So in 2009, they changed the official name of the grape from Prosecco to Glera and they made Prosecco a much wider DOC, denominazione di Origine Controlata.

Peter: Very nice.

Susie: Terrible. This restricted the legal use of the name Prosecco to that region.

Peter: Yeah. So 2009 was really a crucial date in the evolution of Prosecco So it's important just to focus in on it a little bit. On the one hand, the area of the Prosecco DOC was enlarged, as you said, to cover a huge territory spanning nine different provinces from Vicenza to Trieste, sparking a boom in plantings and production. It's the largest Italian DOC by far. At the same time, the authorities saw the need to further protect the historic hilly heartland of Conegliano Valdobiadne, what we're talking about here. So they made that a, DOCG or Denominazione di Origina Contralata e Garantita, the level up from DOC.

Susie: So now you had an expansive DOC area covering some 30,000 hectares of generously yielding vines, making some pretty low cost wine. And at the heart of that was a much smaller DOCG area around the towns of Conegliano and Valdobbiadene, making what was termed Prosecco Superiore. But Even that superior DOCG production grew as the category expanded, going from 4,000 hectares in 2000 to 6,000 hectares in 2010 to 8,667 hectares in 2023. So pretty much doubling the production area in 20 years and going from 33 million bottles in 2003 to 62 million bottles in 2010 to 91 million bo today at a value of 576 million euros. Though growth has deliberately stopped now, as we'll hear.

Peter: A lot of numbers there. Ah, so a rising tide has lifted all boats. The, challenge now to continue the nautical metaphor, is to differentiate the kind of doughty dinghies from the sophisticated yachts when it comes to the wines themselves. And that's what we're going to be getting into in this programme.

Susie: So time to bring in our first guest. Diego Tomasi is director of the Conegliano Valdobbiadene Prosecco Consortium. Before that, he was a researcher for 33 years,

00:10:00

Susie: and his magnum opus was a huge study on the terroir of Conegliano Valdobbiadene and the local Glera grape variety. Now this wasn't some airy fairy impressionistic research. This was data driven evidence led scientific study using information from more than 100 vineyards, 25 weather stations, countless soil pits, grape analyses, micro vinification and wine tastings. All aimed at understanding the various terroir of the Conegliano Valdobbiadene region and what they mean for the wines.

Peter: Now this work took years. Diego calls it one of the deepest studies in Italy on the effect of terroir and subzones. it led to the ConVal region being divided into 80 different subzones or terroir. And he wrote a book about it. it also helped the region become a UNESCO World heritage site in 2019. Anyone knows what makes this region special and has the data to back it up, it's Diego Tomasi. So I asked him what differentiates the wines of Conegliano Valdobbiadene from basic Prosecco?

Diego Tomasi: Not all the Prosecco is the same. The differences arise, from many factors that can be summarised in one word. Terroir. We know that terroir means, history and tradition first of all. And we can go back probably three, four centuries and already find the Glera variety. In our evolution that, terroir means, geomorphology. Our denomination is only hillside, then soil. We are very rich in soil. And we studied the effect of each one of them, on the quality on the composition bunch composition, climate, of course. And then, there is another important social effect. The sense of belonging of the people, the sense of community of the people. And so I think that the main differences, yes, are based on the terroir meanings.

Peter: And how does that translate to the wine?

Diego Tomasi: If your terroir match perfectly with the genetic requirement of the variety. And in our case with the Glera variety, you are sure that you can obtain the maximum quality in our case in terms of acidity, in terms of aroma, composition, in terms of sugar. So if, this combination doesn't happen, you cannot have the maximum expression in terms of quality for a variety like the Glera, that it has not a big aroma, power. he is a medium aromatic variety, but on the, other hand, fortunately he has a bigger range, a huge range of aroma. You, you go through, fluid, fresh fluid and ripe fruit, through flowers and through other, many, many other aroma. And so the presence of the big symphony, aroma, symphony depends of two elements, mainly two elements. The first one is the soil, the second one is the climate. And then of course, also the capacity of our people, of our vine growers, to manage, to manage the plant through the. Okay. All the techniques that we can apply in the vineyard.

Peter: I love that expression aromatic symphony. So, realistically what you're saying is you would expect for Conegliano Valdobbiadene and associated areas, maybe a bit more intensity, a bit more elegance, a bit more aromatic spectrum in the wines.

Diego Tomasi: Yes, you are right. Our wine is not an entry level wine, is not an easy sparkling wine. But this wine is so famous because the people recognise in this wine the elegance, the finesse, the freshness, but also the, the differentiation among different sites that we have in our. In our hills because we have a nine different type of soil and that each soil make, its, own, Its own effect. But we have also, a big range of microclimate and each microclimate impact, on the aroma composition. So yes, our wine is not an easy wine. It's not a wine that you can drink without, keeping your attention on the quality.

Peter: Is it challenging? Is it difficult for you, therefore to differentiate yourself and your wines from the most basic styles of

00:15:00

Peter: Prosecco?

Diego Tomasi: No, it's not difficult because we have so many elements, so many. Yes. Things to tell. I have a lot of data, that I collect in my previous work where there is, sometimes there's a positive correlation, between the diurnal thermal range and the terpenoids, for example, or there is a negative correlation with some other climate elements and the quantity of norisoprenoids, or benzenoids. So this is a scientific demonstration that this variety found in our hills, perfect combination. So speaking about the Glera variety here in our hills, he founds the perfect condition for its quality. This place is perfect for this variety. Then he moved in the. In the flat area. He moved, in the. In the Treviso area. In Treviso and also in another place just because or due to the. The market demand and market request around the 2000, the year 2000 was able to satisfy all the market demand. And so they start to produce Prosecco also in the flat area, but where the soil are totally different. The climate is totally different, but due to the market, the market phenomenon. This is perfect. This is perfect. You work, you make agriculture just to make money. So it's perfect. But please, please remember that Conegliano Valdobbiadene is the area where the variety found the right place and where the phenomenon started probably 40 years ago. 40, 50 years ago.

Peter: Now, Conegliano Valdobiadne is renowned for its sort of hillside vineyards, often quite steep and very picturesque. How hard is it to work those sites and what do they mean for the wine?

Diego Tomasi: Yes, more or less the 70% of our vineyard are in steep slope, conditions. So it means that you cannot use any machinery, any tractor. You have to do everything by hand. So the same, surface is one hectare you can use, the mechanisation, it's required more or less 200, 250 hours a year of labour. In our case, it's require 8, 900 hours, of labour a year. And so there is a big cost disadvantage comparing the wine that you obtain in the flat area and the wine that you attain in heroic viticulture, such as our conditions. And so we are trying to explain to the consumer that you cannot found a bottle of cone on the market for three, four or five euros because you can, you cannot cover the expenses with a solo price. And so then you have to consider also that we have a lot of cost to maintain the terraces, to maintain also the landscape. That's another important element of the terroir. And so this is a big trouble also because it's very hard, day after a year after year to found a labour. And so now we have some labour that came from Albania, that came from Afghanistan. But, it's not easy, not easy. This is a big problem for the future. The, the manual m Labour to manage so hard with the culture. Just because I told you, it's require 8, 900 hours per year.

Peter: And what about the wine making? Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Diego Tomasi: Yes. Since, 1940, we use the Martinotti methods before, use the ancestral method where the second fermentation occurs in bottles, but now we use the Martinotti methods. Martinotti was a researcher that in, 1895 he discovered, that the second fermentation, you can have the second fermentation in big tank and not in bottles like the classic method, the Champagne moment. So what's happened? The fact is that. Please, please, you cannot consider the Martinotti methods, and methods to obtaining sparkling wine, in a less expensive, in an easier way, you use the Martinotti methods, the second fermentation in autoclave. Just because these methods give the possibility to conserve the freshness, the aroma, composition, and also the finesse when you drink, echeveriaden,

00:20:00

Diego Tomasi: you don't taste, the effect of lees, you taste the effect of the terroir, you taste the effect of the aroma composition. If you taste a champagne noir, a champagne bottles, you taste the effect of the yeast, the bread aroma, and so on. In our case, the Martinotti methods is a method that permit, that allow to conserve the freshness, the aroma composition. I told you that unfortunately, the Glera variety is not an aromatic variety, it's a medium variety. And, fortunately, Martinotti gave us the opportunity to conserve the acidity, the freshness, to conserve also the aroma notes, the elegance, the feelings. So please, please, Martinotti methods is not a methods to obtain in a cheapest way, an easy, an easy wine. No, it's only method perfect for this variety, that preserve, that preserve intact all the characteristics that we have in the grape and then in your glass.

Peter: And you use the term, Martinotti, not Charmat, as, ah, some other people do. Can I ask why? And what are the differences, if there are any?

Diego Tomasi: No, the problem is that in 1895, the Martinotti, he discovered the Martinotti methods, these methods, and he patented the method. Fifteen years later, the Charmat, he patented the auto clubs. And so now, I don't know why all the people, they mentioned, Charmat and not Martinotti. Martinotti discovered all the method. Unfortunately, he patented only the metals and not the autoclaves. And Charmat In, 1905, 1910, I don't remember exactly, he patented the autoclaves. And so, I don't know, he gained also the authority for the name of the method.

Peter: And so just to be super clear, Diego do you mean patented? So he sort of registered the, Patented. Okay. All right, so we should talk about Martinotti, not Charmat Really then.

Diego Tomasi: Yes, we try in Italy to explain the Martinotti has the, how you say, the paternity. You can say the paternity.

Peter: Okay, thank you, thank you for clarifying that. Very important to move on to more commercial realities. Diego what are the trends you're seeing? both in terms of production, but also sales when it comes to Conegliano Valdobbiadene?

Diego Tomasi: since 2016, we have reached a threshold of sustainability in our number of bottles. we are around 90 millions of bottles a year. And, we cannot exceed this number, this quantity of bottles, because the plantation of new vineyard is banned. Since, 2019, when we received the UNESCO heritage, we banned the possibility to have a new vineyard. So probably our maximum level of bottles is around, 100 millions. Now we have 90 millions of bottles.

Peter: And in Prosecco more broadly, I know this extends beyond your remit, but the Prosecco story more broadly, over the last 20 30, 40 years. You hinted at it earlier. Could you just give us a very, very brief recap on the success story that Prosecco has been?

Diego Tomasi: Yes, I think that the success of the Prosecco started around 1989, 1885. What's happened? The Prosecco teach a new system to drink wine. Not anymore a very alcoholic wine, a very rich wine, a very woody wines. and so the Prosecco was a new style of wine. Very fresh, very fruity. you can drink wine not only one times a day, along all the day. Is it the same phenomenon that happens probably only one time in one century that we had the kiwi fruit. The kiwi fruit. In 1970 in Italy, no one knows that the kiwi fruit. And in five years, the Italy becomes the first productive country all over the world of kiwi. Because kiwi was a very, a nice fruit in terms of aroma, rich, in vitamin C, not so expensive, very healthy. And so was a big phenomenon, the kiwi in Italy, but also in the other part of Europe. It's the same for the Prosecco The people, the consumer, they are waiting for a new wine, a new style of wine. And yes, and so the Prosecco started in 98, in 1985 to go abroad from Veneto area.

00:25:00

Diego Tomasi: So I think that the Conegliano Valdobbiadene Prosecco has been the right wine in the right moment, like Kiwi to explain. And so now we are selling the 40% of our production go abroad and more or less 60 millions of bottle remain in Italy. Mostly in north part of Italy. But any. Anyway, we are also trying to confirm that until 20 years ago the most used version was the extra dry. Extra dry means a very round, very complex but m mostly a wine that was perfect for the celebration. Now for sure the Prosecco wine in its extra brut and in brut version, pairs well with the food, throughout all the meal. And there is another element that make our wine now more gastronomic. We are discovering that I don't know why, if it's depend of the climate change, if it depends of the wine making techniques or wine management taxes. But we have discovered a longevity of our wines. you remember probably ten years ago, everyone suggested to drink the Prosecco wine, the Conegliano Valdobbiadene wine, just in a span of ex maximum, one year or 15 months. Now we are sure that in those periods you have, you can taste the young version of the wine. But if you wait two or three years, you can taste the adult wine mind with a new aroma composition, with a new taste, and you palate. And so in my master class that I lead probably one times a week now, I am also, explaining, the longevity of the cone of you cannot wait 10 years, but you can wait for sure two, three years or also four years before to taste this wine. And you discover another expression of the Conegliano Valdobbiadene. The same freshness, the same elegance. But, there are something new that we are discovering now in terms of aroma composition.

Peter: So patience has its rewards.

Diego Tomasi: Yes. Correct. Patience, a patient consumer.

Peter: Diego thank you very much indeed.

Diego Tomasi: Okay, thank you.

Susie: So Prosecco as the right wine in the right place at the right time. I mean, a new style of wine and drinking. Interesting. And I did like his comparison with kiwi fruit. That again, really interesting.

Peter: Yeah, yeah. I loved what you said about the Martinotti, method. so I think we should spend just a tiny bit of time on this. Just to recap, the classic or traditional Champagne method is where a base wine is put into a bottle with sugar and yeast, sealed and aged. The yeast ferment the sugar producing carbon dioxide, hence the fizz. But more importantly, the dead yeast, yeast cells, the lees then infuse the wine over time with that, bready, sort of yeasty character.

Susie: And Diego talked about bready characters from the classic methods, didn't he?

Peter: But then you've got the Martinotti method, which is where the wine is refermented in tanks rather than bottles for the fizz. Two important things to note here. Firstly, names. we're arguably unfairly calling it the Charmat method, which is possibly the more common way of saying it, isn't it? but Frenchman Eugene Charmat or Eugene Charmat was just the guy who improved and patented the tanks when it was the Italian Federico Martinotti, who actually invented the whole thing. and then secondly, more importantly, this tank method is often dismissed as a way of making wine sparkling in a cheap, easy way, which is what Diego was getting at. But you, Diego stresses it's actually the best method for retaining the freshness and elegance and finesse of these top ConVal wines and suits them much better than any other method.

Susie: You're right, you're right, you're right. I mean, sometimes there's a bit of snobbery about this. You know, assuming the classic Champagne method is best, but actually, if this Martianotti method suits these grapes and wine styles, then it's appropriate and valid and no one should look down their noses on it.

Peter: I think that's a really, really important M point. Absolutely. He also added, it's not easy method. if you even make a small mistake, you can lose an entire tank. So, you know, you need to be skilled in using it. and talking of skills, you know, he also mentioned the phrase heroic viticulture. I didn't want that to get lost, because he sort of just mentioned it in passing. But this is a term in the region for farming vines on the steepest hillsides. And they do get incredibly backbreakingly steep, don't they?

Susie: Yeah, I mean, and some of the most special, vineyard areas have a separate designation, a, reive. There are, are 43 of them within the wider Conegliano Valdobbiadene

00:30:00

Susie: region. And we'll talk about that a bit more when we taste. But yeah, I mean it's it, it's all about striving to achieve what Diego said, maximum expression from the Glera grape. And that aroma symphony, such an evocative term. And of course all very different from the flat country of DOC Prosecco

Peter: Okay, so on that note, I think we should have a pause before hearing from grower Sara Meneguz and delivering our verdict on some Proseccos With a difference by way of brief summary so far. Conegliano Valdobbiadene is the original heartland of Prosecco A beautiful UNESCO certified landscape of rolling vineyard clad hills where viticulture can be heroic and Prosecco reaches its maximum expression. The Martinotti method, as we should call it, is perfectly engineered to maximise fragrance, freshness and finesse. And whisper it. But apparently we should be ageing some of our ConVal wines too.

Susie: If only we were more patient people. Okay, so I think we should bring in Sara Meneguz. So Sara runs Vini Sara Meneguz. Her family have been making wine in the region since around 1750, but she's the first woman in charge. something she says she feels proud about as well as feeling the weight of history on her shoulders. Her operation is in the hamlet of Corbanese in the Tarzo area of the DOCG Conegliano Valdobbiadene She calls it a very, very special place for wine.

Peter: And that's partly because her vineyards sit around and on top of a hill, the highest altitude being around 325 metres above sea level. So she has a range of exposures and sites to blend her wines from, but all with good freshness and aromatic intensity. Her clay Soils are rich in marine deposits that give weight and structure to the wine. So I asked her how things have changed since she started out.

Sara Meneguz: I started, on my own 20 years ago. @ that time, I received the old vineyards of my father. At that time, the most part of my vineyards were 80, 90 years old. Everything, especially for the administration part of the company was very simple. In these, 20 years, everything is so complicated. The Italian rules are very strict, very complicated. And I am, discovering the global warming. And every year is a new experience for me. When I started 20 years ago, after four or five harvest time, I was so happy to know many things about harvest time, about winemaking process. And then year by year, I discovered that there, is no rule in nature. And every harvest is a discovery challenge. And so every year I start again.

Peter: And how has your production changed and evolved over the years

Sara Meneguz: Following the weather changing! every year is a challenge for me. I pay a lot of attention to control the evolution of my vineyards, the level of, water and So every, every year is different. and another important, thing is that, the weather changing makes different the harvest time. So if, 20 years ago I started, the harvest time, the third weeks, of September, sometimes now I start at the end of August to preserve, the right acidity, the natural acidity of the grape that is very, very important for sparkling wines.

Peter: So do you think moving forward, you know, your biggest challenge is going to be preservation, retention of acidity in the wines in an era of global warming?

Sara Meneguz: Yes. I need to pay more attention. This is the sense of this transformation. I have, to control every day during the, winter time and adapt my agriculture techniques, to this, transformation.

Peter: Tell us a bit about the grape varieties you use and why you use them.

Sara Meneguz: for the most part, I use Glera grape, of course. I think that the principal identity of Glera grape is the elegance of the wine that you make. and the diffusion of Glera grape for me is, The reason of this, diffusion is also that the Glera plant is very strong and it has a big ability to adapt, to different conditions more than other varieties like Verdiso or local, varieties Perera Boschera. And so a Glera

00:35:00

Sara Meneguz: plant is very strong and generous because it gives a, lot of bunch of grapes, each year. Of course, the wine is a elegant wine, light, simple, but, in the sense of easy to drink. And so it gives us joy in, in a simple way, in direct way. And this is, this simplicity, I always say, is the force, of, Prosecco wine and Glera grape. Elegance, simplicity and, joy, and lightness.

Peter: so strength in simplicity and joy. I love that.

Sara Meneguz: Yeah, I love Prosecco because I define Prosecco a democratic wine. Everyone can have joy from, a glass of Prosecco you don't need to be a wine expert. And every moment of the day is a good moment, for a toast with a glass of Prosecco And the bubbles inside are, joy or life.

Peter: I love that. That's great advice for life. Sara, what about the winemaking? Tell me about the method you use and how it can confer quality.

Sara Meneguz: I. I use Martinotti, method. I love to say that the method is Martinotti, because, of course, Charmat has, had the good idea to register the. The name, the method. But, the idea was from an Italian man, and I am proud of this. And, I love Martinotti method because I think that, to use a Martinotti method is like to make a Polaroid of the bunch of grape. I stop the freshness of the bunch of grape with this method. I preserve the fragrance, the young aromas, the freshness of the bunch of grape. It's like a Polaroid, the exactly moment when the grape is the pearl perfect. And I preserve that moment, and I serve you that moment in the glass when I give you my wine.

Peter: I love that. So that the method is almost like a time capsule. It captures a moment in time of the harvest, all that freshness and fragrance, and delivers that into the glass.

Sara Meneguz: Yes, I think that this is the big difference between Martinotti method and the, classic method. In classic method, time, as a rule, transform the wine in a good way. I love a classic method. Of course, I love champagne too, but, time is another ingredient of the wine in classic method. In Martinotti method, we privilege freshness.

Peter: And how would you differentiate, for if someone comes to you and says, look, Sara, explain to me. I've got a bottle of Prosecco DOC here, and I've got. Got a bottle of Conegliano Valdobbiadene What's the difference? How would you describe that difference?

Sara Meneguz: The difference is one word. Resilience. In a glass of DOCG wine, there is. You drink a story of resilience. My grandfather, my. My father, my grandfather, all my relatives, they were very strong to resist in this area. even in years when, Wine was not so a big business. So to stay here, to work hard without all the technologies that we have now, was a big sign of resilience and of love for this place.

Peter: So a story of love and resilience.

Sara Meneguz: absolutely. And this value is in the DOCG. because to stay here in steep, places, it's hard, it's complicated, very complicated.

Peter: And I know there are lots of. There's lots of diversity of styles within Conegliano Valdobbiadene But you know, is there a way you can differentiate the two in taste, in terms of taste as well?

Sara Meneguz: The taste is different totally. The body is bigger. in the DOCG when I speak, about the DOCG wine Prosecco I want to transfer the awareness of what there is, behind the glass of this wine and the body of the wine is a good sign of this, of this identity. Ah, because, you can ah, taste in the glass of DOCG the salt from the soil, that kind of soy, that clay, this heavy soil, and this origin from sea, and the aromas are more rich.

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Sara Meneguz: But immediately the taste and the body is bigger.

Peter: Sara, what are the main challenges that you face?

Sara Meneguz: Weather challenging nature is changing. the most, hard thing for me is the unpredictability of the weather. So really every morning I discover something new. The unpredictability of the weather is the bigger problem of this, age.

Peter: How important was the recognition from UNESCO?

Sara Meneguz: First of all, six years ago, when I realised this beautiful, notice, I thought to my family, to all the people that worked hard to preserve all this area. And that award is a prize to all them. I am a privileged woman because I received all this from the past. And now I have the responsibility to protect all and to preserve all. But UNESCO, heritage was a big sign, a big thank to people of the past and for tourism. M. It's a big opportunity. It is a more reason why to come here. but I think, and sorry to UNESCO, I think that Prosecco is the real, attraction. Wine belongs to human health, is ah, the first drink that humanity, created. And so I think that this is a deep attraction.

Peter: What does then what does the future hold for your wines and for the region more widely?

Sara Meneguz: Future, I am positive because, like I was telling you, Prosecco has a very, very old story. It belongs to humanity and it had the past and it will have a future by sure a Bright future.

Peter: Sara, thank you very much indeed to you.

Sara Meneguz: Thank you, Peter. Good life and good wine!

Susie: I love her attitude towards life and wine. And, bubbles. Bubbles as joy. And Prosecco is, the most democratic of wine...

Peter: Yeah, she's got a great turn of phrase, hasn't she? The way she described the Martinotti method is like taking a Polaroid at the moment of harvest, a way of preserving and then delivering all that freshness and immediacy and fragrance in your glass. I think that captures the method perfectly, doesn't it?

Susie: She also mentioned, didn't she, climate change as a key challenge?

Peter: Yes, yes, she did. She's doing things like working with cover crops, for example, to build up the porosity and water holding capacity of the soil to help it cope with the increased intensity of the rains. Diego also touched on this when I spoke with him. One of his follow up studies was on climate change, in the region. And he also pointed to soils being key here. He said that soils that are better at managing water, you know, in those soils, the effects of climate change on the wine aren't so evident. But when you get hydric stress, you can lose acidity in the grapes and wines. And as, Sara said, acidity is key when you're making sparkling wine.

Susie: Okay, so this talk of acidity and wine, is making me thirsty. Should we get tasting? So first up I've got the snappily named Santa Margherita Valdobbiadene Prosecco Superiore Rive di refrontolo Extra brut 2022.

Peter: You take a sip now.

Susie: I need a drink. So the Rive are the special sites. They always come with a vintage, and this one's three years old now, and it's lovely. So vindicating Diego's point about these wines having the capacity to mature. It's so delicate and graceful. Lovely floral stone fruit, perfume, wonderful freshness and balance on the palate with hints of dried herbs. It manages to be both gentle and unassuming, but also insistent and intriguing.

Peter: And I think you've hit the nail on the head there. and this is sort of my, you know, Damascene moment, if you like. I guess I'm more familiar, as I said at the beginning, with the language and stylistic context of say, you know, champagne or English fizz. But with these really fine Prosecco you kind of have to come at it with a totally different mindset where, where it's all about the subtlety and fragrance and gentle delicacy. Use the word gentle. I think that's absolutely spot on. Gentle sort of the nuance of the thing. If this were music, it would be sort of piano and allegro rather than forte or staccato. And. And there's validity and beauty in that softer register too.

Susie: Did you have a wine you were supposed to be talking

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Susie: about rather than music dynamics?

Peter: I thought your expression there was. Yes, anyway. Yes, absolutely. I've got this one here. It's the Val d'Oca Valdobbiadene Prosecco Superiore Rive di Santo Stefano Extra brut 2022. Now, this Riva is right next to the fabled hill of Cartizze, which, is considered to be one of the finest sub zones in ConVal. It has more effusive aromatics. I think it's pear and fresh almonds just leap out the glass. There's also white flowers, some herbs, apple rind, even a of bit of green asparagus in there as well. It's so fragrant and all about freshness. Then on the palate, it has a bit more intensity and structure. And I think we tried some prosciutto with it. It worked really well, didn't it? You know, it's definitely a drier style, which you do notice. Perhaps we should say something about that briefly.

Susie: Yes. So good point. Yeah. So both these wines are extra brut and with Prosecco you get a clue to the style or the sweetness of the wine from the label. now, Diego touched on this, but historically, most Prosecco was extra dry, which actually means off dry. So we're talking 12 to 17 grammes per litre of residual sugar in the wine. It's a fair amount, sort of a succulent style. But increasingly, Prosecco especially top Prosecco like the ConVal stuff, is going drier. So Brut is 0- to 12 grammes per litre of residual sugar. Extra Brut is naught to six grammes per litre. And Brut Natur is naught to three grammes per litre. So pretty dry style.

Peter: And the ones we've just tried are both extra Brut. So that's like naught to six.

Susie: That's right.

Peter: So what would you say about the trend for Prosecco to go. To go drier?

Susie: O. Honestly?

Peter: Yeah. Come on. I think it's interesting.

Susie: I've. I've got mixed feelings. I get that the general trend around the world at the moment is for sparkling wine to go drier. So I understand why they're doing it in Prosecco especially for fine Prosecco where it's all about more inherent quality along with fragrance and. And delicacy. But equally, I think there's something magical about the succulence and slightly off dry richness, if you like, you get with extra dry or even with the, the richer, Brut styles. I think it suits the nature of Prosecco so well, and I think it would be a shame to lose that in the rush to join, as it were, the ever drier trend towards extra brut or brut nature. there are exceptions, of course. Course, there always are, aren't there? But in general, I would urge caution in that regard.

Peter: Interesting, interesting. I think that's a fair point. what about your next wine?

Susie: Okay, so it's the, Sanfeletto Conegliano Valdobbiadene Prosecco Superiore DOCG brut This is brut This is brut So really pale, like all the wines. And it's got a lovely floral sort of fresh herb aroma. And some. There's some red apple rind there as well. I mean, it's quite, it is quite dry, but with good weight and persistence, I would say. Really impressive, this one.

Peter: Absolutely. And the last wine we've got is the Bortolomiol Ius I think that's the name. Naturai Valdobbiadene Prosecco Superiore, DOCG Brut Millezimato 2022. Again, I really like this. It's perhaps the most characterful and expressive wine here. Also a little bit aged. It's got lovely honeyed peach and pear aromas. Bit floral, but also very yeasty, isn't it? It's quite complex and vital. Thinners, really good weight on the palette. Complex, savoury and, yet you do get this sort of creamy, yeasty character in both the texture and the flavour.

Susie: A bit different. It is a bit different. It is a bit different. It is the most expensive. Perhaps we should mention price. Most expensive, expensive of the bunch. But it's also organic and it looks really cool. It's a bit difficult finding prices, but most of these wines seem to be around 12 to 18 pounds. And that particular one is north of 20, so about a bit pricey.

Peter: I mean, price is interesting, isn't it? Because both Diego and Sara touched on this. these aren't the cheapest wines to make these, ConVal ones, you know, as opposed to some of the more basic Prosecco given it, you know, obviously it can take four times the man hours to work these vineyards. as they explained. I mean, yields can still be pretty high, even in ConVal I think that's something that maybe, you know, needs to be, to be looked At. But it does depend entirely on the grower, of course, that. And. And you get the sense these wines were not made with high yielding vines because you got. You get wonderful character, don't you, here. So. So all that cost and history means these will never be the cheapest wines. Really important to say that. But equally, they're far from being the most expensive either, are they?

Susie: Absolutely. Ah, style. And you do get that sense of what Diego and Sara were talking about. The, the perfume, the roundness, the persistence in the DOCG wines that wouldn't be there in the more basic styles.

Peter: Yeah. So. So a quick reminder here. If you're looking for quality and precision, if you're looking for your fine yachts rather than the doughty dinghies, as we said earlier, the label can help. A quick tip is to look for the letters DOCG on the label rather than just DOC. The words Conegliano or Valdobbiadene or Superiore also count for a lot.

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Peter: You can have one, two, or all three of those on the label. if they are site specific. Conegliano wines tend to be richer than Valdobbiadene wines, which are more delicate. Delicate. you might also see names like Rive Asolo Ah. Or Cartizze. all of which indicate quality sites and, are well worth trying if you can.

Susie: Yeah. And talking labels, we should mention. Spumante is the most common and best form of Prosecco It's fully sparkling. There's also frizzante, which is semi sparkling and even Tranquilo or still.

Peter: So I think we should wrap things up there. by way of closing summary, there's so much more to Prosecco than just Prosecco The wines from the UNESCO endorsed hilly heartlands of Conegliano Valdobbiadene are where the Prosecco story began and where the most expressive and refined wines are, to be found. These are wines of great fragrance and delicacy, but also thoroughly democratic wines which bring joy and don't require a diploma to appreciate. And they're not the exclusive domain of smart Italian restaurants anymore.

Susie: Amen to that. Thanks to our interviewees Diego Tomasi and Sara Meneguz Thank you also to the Consorzio Tutela del Vino Conegliano Valdobbiadene Prosecco For sponsoring this episode. We hope you've enjoyed listening as much as we've enjoyed making it, and as much as I've enjoyed witnessing my husband change his mind. This episode marks the end of season six, but we will come roaring back very soon with season seven. And we have some serious treats in store for you. So until next time, cheers!

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