Rock and Rhône: from Côte-Rôtie to Cairanne via The Clash

What do Hermitage, The Sex Pistols, Tavel and Pink Floyd have in common? They all, ahem, featured at a particularly funky recent London tasting of top Rhône wine appellations, or Crus, aimed at reminding us how delicious and diverse these wines can be. And how fun, too.

So join us as we explore the best wines of the Rhône Valley, from Côte-Rôtie to Condrieu via Vacqueyras and Vinsobres, discovering why they taste like they do, and how they're evolving and adapting for the future. 

Our expert guides are Rhône expert Matt Walls plus producers Marie Perret, François Miquel and Guillaume Boissonnet. We're also regaled with live music from Bristol four-piece Adult Leisure.

Thanks to Côtes du Rhône Crus for sponsoring this episode and bringing the party to Wine Blast. As if we needed an excuse...

And thanks for tuning in. We love to hear from you so please do get in touch! Send us a voice message via Speakpipe. Or you can find all details from this episode on our website: Show notes for Wine Blast S7 E10 - Rock and Rhône: from Côte-Rôtie to Cairanne via The Clash

To get early access to new episodes, full archive access to our back catalogue and exclusive bonus content, subscribe to Wine Blast PLUS at wineblast.co.uk

Instagram: @susieandpeter

Chapters

• 0:49 Welcome to the party!
• 1:30 The buzziest, coolest wine tasting
• 3:08 This episode's all about the Crus of the Rhône
• 4:34 Setting the scene for the Rhône and its Crus
• 5:03 Northern v Southern Rhône
• 7:24 Syrah v Grenache
• 9:20 Soils and their effect on Rhône wines
• 10:49 What are the Crus of the Rhône, and why are they important?
• 15:21 MID-EPISODE RECAP
• 15:50 How the Rhône is evolving, inc a TAVELUTION!
• 19:27 The rise of white wine in the Rhône Crus - inc Assyrtiko and Albariño...
• 24:31 The back-from-the-brink story of Condrieu
• 30:16 What makes Saint-Joseph special?
• 35:34 Winemaking innovation in the Rhône inc stems and co-fermentation
• 38:12 Recommending a spread of Rhône wine styles, from fizz to hearty red
• 41:04 Some delectable food and Rhône Crus pairings, from asparagus to truffles and beef stew...
• 43:59 What's the future of the Rhône and its Crus?
• 46:17 CLOSING SUMMARY
• 46:52 Outro + Adult Leisure

Transcript

Peter: Hello! This is indeed Wine Blast with me, Peter Richards, and my wife and fellow Master of Wine, Susie Barrie. Welcome to the party!

Susie: Yep, no need to adjust your sets. Even wine nerds get to rock out sometimes! These are the strains of the brilliant Bristol four-piece Adult Leisure, performing live.

Peter: And boy did they perform! Now, you might be wondering, quite reasonably, what this live performance is all about, especially on this podcast. Is it party season? Of course it is. It's always party season in the Wine Blast world. But that's not the whole story here. This was one of the buzziest, coolest, most fun wine tastings we've been to in a while, wasn't it?

Susie: Yep, it was a wine tasting, believe it or not. it was called All You Need is Rhône. See what they've done there?! It was held at the Vinyl Factory in London, a kind of subterranean, whitewashed warehouse style venue. Very cool. There were 18 tables each dedicated to one Rhône Valley Cru from Cote Rotie to Cairanne with rock star winemakers pouring wines. and then towards the end of the evening, this roomful of excited and suitably refreshed tasters was treated to a live gig by Adult Leisure.

Peter: Definitive proof that Rhône Crus get you going, you know, in some style. If the dancing was anything to go by. I mean, not, not mine,

Peter: there's no style to that!

Peter: Excuse me!! Excuse. I can say that you're right. You're absolutely right. and they clearly been a fair bit of thought put into this thing too because each Rhône Cru had come up with a band to represent their vibe, as it were. So, you know, they had a Spotify playlist to match. So we had Hermitage and the Clash, Tavel and Pink Floyd, and Cornas and Led Zeppelin. Obvs.

Susie: I quite like Rasteau and Bowie. That's pretty cool.

Peter: That is pretty cool.

Susie: Also Vacqueyras and Radiohead, a band you've just been to see live.

Peter: I am very lucky.

Susie: But no motley Cru or cutting Crew...

Peter: Oh, love that.

Susie: I think they missed a trick there. They did. Anyway, I think I might be in danger of going down a massive rabbit hole here. So let's park that for a moment and clarify what we're actually going to be doing in this episode and what we're going to be exploring, which is the wines of the Rhône Valley in France and more specifically, the Crus of the Rhône Valley. And that's C R U S. and we'll be explaining what that means shortly.

Peter: Yeah. Ah, yeah. Explainers and scene setting coming up. time though. Here's a taster of the action ahead from interviews we conducted in as quiet a space as we could find. Obviously it wasn't super easy, but basically something that wasn't the mosh pit.

Matt Walls: If people maybe are, feeling a little bit skint, like so many people are at the moment, you know, not just in the uk, but everywhere, I would say, you know, look to the Crus of the Rhône because you can find some really delicious organic, terroir driven wines made by family owned estates for £20, £25, you know,

Marie Perret: Yes, it's  very hard work, but we like this, so the future is good.

Susie: So there we heard from writer and Rhône expert Matt Walls, as well as winemaker Marie Perret. More from them and indeed others in due course. We should also say thank you to Cote du Rhône Crus for sponsoring this episode and giving us the chance to explore the wonderful world of the Rhône Cru which produce some of our all time favourite wines. So we will of course be making time to taste and recommend some of those as we go.

Peter: Mandatory tasting for this one. and we'll even be sharing some delectable food and wine pairing tips too. That's something else to look forward to. Now, as we launch ourselves headlong into this topic, we should clarify a few things as well as set the scene. Firstly, what do we mean when we talk about the wines of the Rhone? Well, the Rhône is a major European river that rises in the Alps and empties into the Mediterranean. we're concerned with its lower reaches here in southeast France, the part that runs roughly from Vienne to Avignon.

Susie: Wine is a historic part of the landscape here. The Romans were big fans, apparently, and it is quite a landscape, from the steep granite slopes of the northern Rhône to the warm rolling hills of the southern Rhône And right there I've mentioned what is A fundamental point about the Rhône wines. This is a game of two halves. one half is the Northern Rhône the other half is the Southern Rhône

Peter: Different landscapes, different climates, different soils, different grape varieties. And this is a really important distinction to make right from the outset. The same river runs through them. Apart from that, the northern and Southern Rhône are really quite different. Here are, Matt Walls and Marie Perret making this very point.

Matt Walls: So the wines of the Northern Rhône for me are more about purity, they're about perfume, and they have a certain lightness to them compared to the wines

00:05:00

Matt Walls: of the Southern Rhône which for me are more about warmth and generosity and richness. And for that reason, I think the two regions should really be considered separately.

Marie Perret: So the Rhône is like big family between the Northern Rhône and the Southern Rhône we are all together close to the Rhône Valley, but finally we have two different kind of, production.

Susie: One big family. I like that. Nice and friendly. And a productive family too, because. Factoid alert. The Rhône is France's second largest AOP vineyard after Bordeaux, and the third largest AOP wine region by production volume after Bordeaux and Champagne, ahead of the Loire and Burgundy.

Peter: And one more, the Southern Rhône is by far the biggest contributor to that production, accounting for more than 90% of the Rhone's overall output. So the north is small in volume, albeit important in historic and qualitative terms.

Susie: Yeah, so two quite different wine worlds in terms of climate. The Northern Rhône is more continental, a bit more marginal, hence needing to use the steep south facing slopes of the hills that rise up from the Rhône river to harness every ounce of solar warmth to ripen the grape varieties it has properly. Whereas the south is more Mediterranean, giving more generous, richer styles of wine.

Peter: Another good way of making this distinction is via the prism of grape varieties. Here's Matt Walls again on this very subject.

Matt Walls: Well, in the north, there's very few. so it's all about Syrah, the reds. And I love Syrah because it combines an aromatic side and a perfume side with, you know, that structured side, the tannin, the acidity, those things that make a real impact to you physically on your palate. So that's why I love Syrah. From the southern. Right. There's this smorgasbord, dozens of grapes to choose from. So if I had to choose just maybe one white and one red, which I find quite exciting, I would say in white, I would encourage people to have a look at Clairette if they don't know it. So it's not the most widely planted white grape but it gives these wines, they have this kind of petal softness to them, but a freshness. They combine this softness and freshness, which I find really compelling. So they don't have a lot of acidity. They're quite broad. But that makes them very food friendly. So that's why I love Clairette. In red, I would say. Oh, it's got to be Grenache, you know, I mean, it's the wide and most widely planted grape. It's the. It's the most emblematic red grape of the southern Rhône But it, it just creates these wines which are just so fluid and so full and so warming and can, be so complex as well.

Susie: Okay, so the Rhône is mainly a red wine region. 75% of the vineyard makes red wine, though. That picture is evolving, as we'll discover.

Peter: Yeah.

Susie: And in terms of red wine varieties, as Matt says, the headliners are Syrah in the northern Rhône and Grenache in the Southern Rhône And two varieties, ah, account for more than 90% of all Rhône plantings.

Peter: That's an astonishing figure, isn't it? Especially when you consider there's a fair bit of white plantings and a pretty big range of other red varieties, especially in the southern Rhone, like Carignan or VIognier or Cinsault, you know, I guess some of that Syrah and  Grenache will make rose, though. anyway, one other way to come at this is through the lens of soil. Here's Matt walls again.

Matt Walls: Okay. Northern Rome, mostly igneous rock, mostly granite with a little bit of schist and a little bit of gneiss up in the Cote Rotie apart from Crozes Hermitage, which is alluvial soil, Southern Rhône mostly sedimentary soil. A lot of clay, clay, limestone, sand, and also some alluvials. Again, galets roulés alluvial soils. What do they do that's different? Okay, so in the north, I would say that the effect on the wines, particularly the granite, and the metamorphic rocks, which are the schist and the gneiss, is to give wines with a certain upright feel, an aerial feel, a perfume, and they kind of have a tightness and a kind of tucked in feel that I really like. The sedimentary soils of the southern Rhône particularly the clay soils, mild soils, which is essentially clay limestone, they tend to give wines with the. With more m. Fullness and richness. And galets roulés, those big pebbles, they give wines with even more power and, structure.

Susie: Just to clarify, galets roulés, are these famous large rounded pudding stones or cobblestones that sit on top of the soils Typically in photogenic shots from famous southern Rhône appellations like Chateauneuf du Pape.

Peter: Okay, so you mentioned Chateauneuf du Pape there, and, Matt mentioned Cote Rotie So now we're finally honing in on our focus in this episode, which is the Crus of the Rhône So what is a Cru? what does it mean? And why is it of interest to us wine

00:10:00

Peter: lovers? Here's Matt Walls again.

Matt Walls: So the Crus of the Rhône So we have eight in the north and 10 now in the south. So what we mean by the Cru are the top appellations. So whether it be Hermitage, Cote Rotie, Chateauneuf du Pape, Gigondas Vacqueyras whatever. So these are the cru. Why are they important? Because they're considered to be the best terroir, and therefore they're considered to be the places that make the best wine.

Peter: And within that CRU context, obviously, there are some that are better known and some that are lesser known. If we're looking for some real value here in, let's say, both red and white, what would the Cru be that you would highlight?

Matt Walls: Value Crus? I would say to look at Lirac on the west bank of the southern Rhône they make red, white, and there's quite a bit of sand there. And often when you grow wines on sand, they have a certain finesse to them. They have this kind of slightly tighter, feel. They're not quite as broad and rich as wines grown on clay or alluvials. I think there's a lot of value to be found in Lirac, both in. Particularly in the whites and the reds. I would say on the other bank, on the east bank of the southern Rome, I would look at Cairanne I think there's wines with a lot of finesse in Cairanne, both in white and red. Also for value, I think I would consider Vinsobres, which is a wine that we don't often see very much in the uk, but it is one of the Cru and they make wines with a bit more freshness and tension. They're always red, but. And they're often a little bit more Syrah heavy. So they have a little bit more tannin and a little bit more tension and a little bit more intensity, which I quite like.

Peter: And a value shout in the northern Rhône?

Matt Walls: Value shout in the northern Rhône Very tricky. because the wines of the northern Rhône do tend to be more expensive. it's a much smaller area. They don't make very much, and we're talking about very difficult farming which is very expensive to do because it's on slopes. however, I think you can still find some good value in Crozes Hermitage in St. Joseph, I would say, for the quality. actually the wines of St. Joseph are fabulous value. They're not cheap, but they're fabulous value. Saint Peray, very little known white appellation, the most southerly appellation of the northern Rhône Again, some very good value white wines to be found there.

Susie: So not just a fantastic explainer about Cru there, but also a pretty handy guide to seeking out great value right across the Rhône He is good, Matt, isn't he?

Peter: He's the best. He's the best. So, as Matt M said, there are 18 Cru in the Rhône currently. That's quite a lot to talk about, even for us, so we won't be able to cover them all in this episode. consider this an invitation to explore further for yourselves, with our job being to pique your interest. but one thing we should make clear from the outset is we're not going to be Chateauneuf du Pape. We know it's a big name, but that's a whole different story for another time. And right now we want to focus on the other Crus.

Susie: Two other things we're not going to be discussing but are relevant in terms of the context here are the Cotes du Rhône and Cotes du Rhône Villages appellations. These are the designations that sit below the Cru and they account for nearly 60% of the Rhone's AOP production. But if you flip that round, you get a sense of how the Cru account for just the very top tranche of quality Rhône production.

Peter: And, just to give the overview, the Cru of the Northern Rhône are heading north to south. Cote. Rotie Condrieu, Chateaux Gruyer, St. Joseph, Hermitage, Crozes Hermitage, Cornas and St. Peray.

Susie: And the Cru of the Southern Rhône heading roughly east to west. Vinsobres, Rastaux, Carran, Gigondas, Vaqueras, Beaum de Venice, Chateaune of du Pap, Tavelle, Lyrac and the newest Cru of them all promoted in 2024. Laudun. and we'll put a map in the show. Notes.

Peter: Some pretty heavy hitters in the mix there. a, truly star studded lineup. right, so now we've set the scene and got stuck into the Cru let's take a quick breath before we dive in even further.

Peter: By way of brief recap, so far, the Rhône Valley is a wine region in two parts. The north, with its scented Syrah on granite slopes, and the south, with its Heady, rich Grenache on alluvial undulations. Of course, that broad generalisation doesn't capture all the many nuances of what is a fascinating wine region and also the many ways in which it's evolving and adapting for the future,

Susie: Which is the really juicy part and what we're going to get into now. We didn't really introduce Matt Walls properly at the top, but his book, Wines of the Rhône is excellent. And more recently he's published the Smart Travellers Wine Guide to

00:15:00

Susie: the Rhône Valley. he tastes huge amounts of Rhône wines every year. He even runs tours to the Rhône and we'll put info on our show notes. Anyway, you asked Matt if there's a new wave of winemaking going on in the Rhône

Matt Walls: Is there a new wave? Yes, I suppose so. In the Southern Rhône I would say more than in the north. The southern Rhône however, you know, it's much, much bigger. The northern Rhône only makes 6% of the wine of the Rhône Valley, so there's much more going on in the south. And one appellation, actually, that I would like to pull out is Tavel. I mean, you know, Tavel. So it's the only appellation that makes 100% rosé wine in the Southern Rhône And they are, they have to be dark, right? By law. It's in there, it's in their rule book. And if the roses are too light, they have to be downgraded to Cote du Rhône So it makes life quite difficult for them because the trend, of course, is for very pale, rosé but their. They're quite, powerful, they are quite deep, they're dark, they're very food friendly. Weirdly, they age quite well. And there has been this new wave of producers in Tavel making wines with just this amazing, complexity and finesse. Kind of going back to the old way that Tavel used to be made about 50, 60 years ago, maybe 70 years ago. really led by this guy called Eric Fifeling at Domain Langlor, and he's taught loads of people, his way of doing it, who are now going out and they're setting up their own domains and it's creating this kind of revolution, a TAVELUTION, which is what I find really exciting that's going on in the Southern Rhone today.

Peter: So we're talking rosé with character here, rosé with unashamed guts and gumption. Something to say for itself. And not bland, boring.

Matt Walls: That's it. It's with character, with complexity, with depth, with a bit of tannin, like a red wine, almost. It's almost not quite correct. To even really refer to them as rosé not like the. That we see so often on the shelves today. It's more of this kind of like a pale red, almost like a clairet style than a. And so they work really well with food as well because they have a bit of texture and tannin and a bit of oomph.

Peter: A tavolution. Love that, love that. But this is music to our ears rosé that goes beyond the bland and the boring and the identikit and which majors on character and complexity and works really well with food. You know, this is what we were talking about, wasn't it, in our, in our we need to Talk about rosé episode.

Susie: Lighter, smashable reds are really popular right now too. And there's really not much between a dark rosé and a lighter red, is there? Yeah, it's intriguing that Tavel has to be a deep coloured rosé by law. Ah. But yet maybe they should market them as very light reds rather than deep roses. And who knows? They'd probably suddenly be uber trendy.

Peter: Yeah. and we've got one here, haven't the Lunar Apogee Tavel 2023. It's a biodynamic blend of mainly Grenache with Cinsault, Clairette and Syrah. It's got that very deep hue for a rose, hasn't it? And it's packed full of ripe rich black cherry and blackcurrant flavour. It's dry and full bodied, but really well balanced and great with food and.

Susie: Yummy whether it's a dark or a super light red. Now, one of the other subjects that always comes up when you ask how the Rhône is evolving is the increasing popularity of white wines. François Miquel is general manager and winemaker for Ogier, a negociant producer based in the southern Rhône I asked him what's most exciting in the Rhône right now.

François Miquel: Rhône has a real opportunity by having a large diversity of, appellations, we can produce white, rose, red, fortified, sparkling. And I think the trend since a few years is more and more for white. And the Rhône is also changing. So we are moving for rosé and red to some more white. and So, we have a great potential to still to continue to adapt ourselves.

Susie: You say that, but obviously the Rhône is known particularly for red wines. How can you adapt and produce more white? Because presumably you're in quite a warm part. Certainly the southern is in a warm part of France. That would suggest it's more suited to reds than whites and will become increasingly more. So how are you going to produce whites with freshness and lovely, you know, lively fruit and not too much alcohol.

François Miquel: So you write that, Rhône Valley is a sunny area, but, you know, Rhone Valley, we have a lot of different exposition, a lot of different altitude. You have limestone, we have gneiss, you have granite. And all of this soil helps to regulate the temperature, you know. So finally we can manage

00:20:00

François Miquel: to adapt. But you need to plant the right grapes at the right place. It's easy to say, but not easy to do. So that's a lot of work to find the right terrrois, the right exposition. Also, for years we have been looking for south southwest exposition because this was a way to get the more sun. Now we are more looking for some easier east, if not north, exposure. So you have just to find, the right place to plant the right grapes.

Susie: And would you say you will continue to major on Viognier, Marsanne, Roussanne rather than moving to other varieties?

François Miquel: No, I think we need to also to move to the, grape variety. So the Viognier will remain the king in some, appellations, like Condrieu, but I guess, and I bet in the Southern Rhone will go more for variety, like Clairette Clairette is very good. It's refreshing by itself. So I bet Clairette will be one of the varieties for the future. Vermintino, which is very popular, in Spain, in Italy, in Sardinia, in Corsica, Vermintino could be a, good, variety. And, we are also testing because with the global warming, each one region is testing some new variety. So we are testing, since, five, ten years, some variety coming from Greece, coming from, south, Spain, Portugal, like Albarino, for example, Assyrtiko from Gris. So maybe it will be the grapes of, tomorrow. But I think, you know, the Rhône Valley is a paradise for blends. And we are an area for blend, especially for Southern Rhône And so we. I'm sure we'll find some way to compensate the global warming. Because of the grapes, because of the, the terroir. It's a blend of grapes and a blend of terroir. This is important to keep that in mind. and, I, think, we have, good tools to adapt ourselves.

Peter: Assyrtiko and Albarino in the Rhône you heard it here first. actually, I think we've touched on this before in the pod, haven't we? But still, it's interesting to hear what might be coming further down the line. And yeah, global warming too, affecting everyone in the world of wine. But The Rhône is no exception, you know, meaning producers are having to adapt.

Susie: And funnily enough, whites can also be a hedge against climate change because you can harvest them earlier than reds and not have to wait so long for flavour ripeness while potential alcohol levels are surging in the grapes and acidity is dropping. But, yeah, it seems like whites are growing in popularity. You can of course make whites from red grapes, a, Blanc de Noir style. But it does seem like producers are starting to think more long term about replanting white varieties.

Peter: So just thinking the figures, 12% of the Rhône vineyard was white wine production in 2024. 12%, that's just behind rosé at 13%. But white does seem to be, as you say, growing in popularity. and François touched on some of the white grape varieties there. Viognier is the famous grape of northern Rhône Cru, like Condrieu, and it also can be used in the blend of Cote Rotie Of course, Marsanne and Roussanne are typical in the Northern Rhône sometimes in the south too. Clairette is clearly on the up mentioned by both Matt and François, so that's probably one to look out for. Incidentally, Grenache Blanc is the most planted white in the Rhône m and that's a cracking white variety.

Susie: So let's bring in Marie Perret here to continue the white wine theme. Marie is the 29 year old daughter of Andre Perret, whose eponymous Condrieu estate makes beautiful classical Condrieu and St. Joseph wines. Now, Condrieu is an intriguing Cru. It's mainly planted to the finicky Viognier variety on steep slopes. So very hard work. And although the appellation was created in 1940, by the 1960s the vineyard had shrunk to around 10 hectares, so it nearly disappeared.

Peter: But then a handful of committed growers, heroes really, Andre Perret included, kickstarted a revival because Viognier and Condrieu can make the most beautiful, distinctive white wines with a powerful perfume and mouth coating, generous palate profile. But this took quite a bit of hard work, including building stone walls and terraces with vines higgledy piggledy in the mix, as Marie explains.

Marie Perret: The funny thing with Condrieurs is that in the 1970s we had only maybe 10 hectares because the work was very hard and everybody, ah, go to work in the industry in the other part of the Rhone. So when my dad arrived and other winemaker from, his age, like they come back in the 80 or, 70, 80, they were like, crazy. They say, okay, we have to Replant all this region because Viognier, is origin in the northern one. So they say, okay, we have to replant. And it's all these generation who decide to, yes, to replant this appellation and to rebuild all the wall stone,

00:25:00

Marie Perret: to put this Vionnier. So yes, it's a very hard rock. But we like this. We like to have little terrace everywhere and to plant and to take care of the Viognier, in our appellation.

Peter: So just to be clear, you like that? You like that hard work. Because that's hard. Making wine from these steep hillsides, degrees graded to granite soils, that's hard work, no?

Marie Perret: Yeah, but we love this kind of work because, I don't know, to have a long line of vines for us, it's not funny. We like to have a little, vines everywhere. And yeah, we love this kind of, this kind of work. It's hard. But, everything is doing by hand. So it's the nice thing.

Peter: And Condrieu is an interesting story because the appellation almost disappeared.

Marie Perret: Yeah, exactly. Viognier is the origin of the Vionnet is in Condrio appellation. It's an old appellation, 1940. But finally, like I said, in the 1970, we had only 10 hectares. And it's all this generation of our parents who replant the vines. So now we have 221 hectare of conduct year. And almost all the appellations, is planted.

Peter: Now what's Viognier like as a grape to grow and to make?

Marie Perret: Viognier is not the easiest one because, the quantity is not, ah, very high. and some years it can be high, but the other year is like, no, we have no grape. with the diseases, sometimes it's complicated. Yeah, Viognier. We need to take care of the Viognier during all the year. So it's not the easiest grape variety, but we love this work. And finally, the aromatic and the finest of the Viognier. It's very good in Condrieu. So sometimes Viognier can be opulent. And in Condrieu appellation we always have, ah, the fine and fresh, vineyard.

Peter: I was going to ask what does Condrieu give to Viognier that makes those wines so special?

Marie Perret: Sometimes people say, oh, Viognier. No, I don't really like Viognier because it's too much, it's too opulent. But when you came in Condrieu, I think the granite soil, because it's, granite, very decomposed. And we give at the Viognier all is aromatic, but we give him also the finest and the freshness, freshness we need. So we have a very nice structure of the. With the Vionnet in. But we have also this long wine with very fine and freshness. So it's good.

Susie: So Condrieu is a real back from the brink story, isn't it? And it is the heartland of Viognier, which is a grape variety that's quite widely planted around the world now. It makes very distinctive wines. And we've got a couple of condrieurs here.

Peter: We do, don't we? We've got the, Andre Perret Chery 2023, which is a really sort of classical style, isn't it, with sort of apricot kernel, white pepper, aromatics, and a sort of pithy, peachy, spicy finish.

Susie: Yeah. And then a contrasting style is the Les Vins de Vienne Condrieu La Chambe 2023, which is more marked by oak barrel ageing. So it has a creamy, honeyed, apricot aroma and then a broad, opulent palate. But wonderfully focused too.

Peter: Yeah, really delicious. I think they both capture a bit of what Marie was saying about the way good Condrieus has a tension and bal being a richer style of white. Marie did mention how with climate change, they're leaving more leaves on the vines to shade the fruit, trying to focus on harvesting at exactly the right moment, not too early, not too late, which is key with Vionier, a lot of their work now is focused on retaining freshness in the wines.

Susie: M Now, just south of Condrieu in the northern Rhône is the Cru of St. Joseph, where Guillaume Boissonnet works at Domain Boissonnet. Guillaume is another younger generation who's joined a family domain. In his company case from business school in Paris. I asked him to tell us what makes St. Joseph special.

Guillaume Boissonnet: So St. Joseph is a very, long appellation. From the north to the south, you have 34 miles. But what makes it special, is the, terraced vineyards, steep vines, and the granitic soil, which is the main characteristic of the St. Joseph appellation, and it's most well known for is red. So Syrah is a big, part of the St. Joseph identity. But we, also produce, white with Marsane and Roussanne.

Susie: Tell us about Syrah as a grape variety and how it expresses itself in St. Joseph.

Guillaume Boissonnet: It's tough question.

Susie: Big question.

Guillaume Boissonnet: What I like about Syrah in the San Joseph area

00:30:00

Guillaume Boissonnet: is the freshness that it has. The spicy pepper aromatic, BlackBerry aromatic, which is kind of unique in St. Joseph. The fine tannins that you usually find in steep vines or terrace vines with self exposition is something that I really like. and the balance that you have, it's not that you have much more acidity compared to other southern parts, but you have the freshness and the balance that is very interesting I think.

Susie: How does the history of the region and its winemaking, how does that affect the way you make wines?

Guillaume Boissonnet: The history is mainly in the steep vines and in the terraced vineyards. And that's not something you can undo. It's here and you have to deal with it. If you want to make St. Joseph, you have to work on the terraced vineyards. so that is part of history and there is also the family history, that you want to continue.

Susie: Now sustainability is a big focus for a lot of winemakers these days. What are you doing on that kind of wider front with sustainability?

Guillaume Boissonnet: So sustainability, we try to find ways to lower our impact on the environment. So one of the I think hardest things thing to do and the hardest work, it's for the work in the vines. because with all the spray and the tractors, It's a big thing. What we try to do is to reduce when it's possible and with new way of working. something I'm really interested in, interested in is cover crop where it's possible. because it has many benefits. we have some problem with the erosion, with the soil erosion. so cover crop can be a part of the solution. cover crop can also allow us to reduce the fertiliser and for the biodiversity. is also a good point. yeah, we can think about maybe lower the weight of the bottle, which can have no impact on the quality of the wine, but can reduce our CO2 emission, by a certain amount.

Susie: And have you done that then? Have you been trying to lower the weights?

Guillaume Boissonnet: Yes, we've done it two years ago, because of to export the wine. Some country asked for lower weight bottles and at first we were doing only for this country, which was not very smart. And I just asked myself why shouldn't we do it for every other country and even for the French market? and so we've done it and I don't know why we didn't do, it before. I mean, for the production of the bottle, it's, reduced by 50%, the gas consumption.

Peter: So reducing the carbon footprint of the bottles by 50%. That's quite something.

Susie: That's amazing, isn't it?

Peter: And other producers could take a leaf out of their book, couldn't they? You know, heavy embossed bottles are probably not the best way forward these days.

Susie: And of course, focusing on sustainability is one way to help ensure the survival of the family domain and the continuation of this proud, good winemaking history in the region that he talks about. so it's good to hear that.

Peter: Yeah. You know, one other thing Guillaume mentioned was trying to convince his dad to introduce some new techniques. We all know how hard that can be, don't we? You know, one of which was incorporating stems or whole bunches into the vinification of their Syrah. And it's interesting because exactly the same thing is happening with Grenache in the Southern Rhône too.

Susie: Yeah, I mean, François Miquel of Ogier mentioned this when I asked how Rhône winemakers are doing things differently to make their wines fresh.

François Miquel: The Garnache is a very juicy variety. It's round, velvety, easy drinking. What I see more and more, what we do more and more is, a, whole bunch vinification, a whole cluster. So we keep the stem. for me, this is an evolution of the past ten years. Ten years before, nobody was, almost nobody was making 100% whole bunch wine. And now more and more we keep the stem. So two advantages. The ste stem gets water in it. So, between, if you take the same vineyard, this time or whole bunch, the whole bunch will be almost 1, percent less in alcohol. So it's important and in terms of profile, the stem brings maybe a kind of dilution, you know, but a good dilution that makes the wine, you know, easy drinking that brings some, what we call

00:35:00

François Miquel: the floral note, you know, the dry floral smell, you know, so it's very appealing, you know, when you, you smell it, you want to drink it. And also the whole bunch, makes the wine really full on the mid palate and the mid palate. So I guess the world benjaminification, could be one thing. And also, what I see that people do more and more is the co- fermentation. You can vinify several grapes together. I'm an ologist, I've been teach at school. That, Syrah is one, vat, Massension is one, and Grenache a Third one. And now you can make compromise and to harvest some Syrah, like a late maturity and to blend them with, early maturity Grenache and you mix them form the alcoholic fermentation. And finally, the earlier you mix the grapes, what you call the co fermentation, the more is, you know, the integration, the finesse. And, so these are little techniques that, can, be useful to fine tune and to adapt the style to the new, way of consuming red wines.

Peter: So we did talk about stems in our, Going Gaga for Garnacha episode. it definitely seems a trend. And not just in Syrah or Grenache, but other varieties like Pinot Noir too, giving a bit more kind of tannin and freshness, extra aromatics, slightly lower alcohol. And then co fermentation is an interesting one too.

Susie: Yeah. Now, we do have, have some more wines to taste and recommend, as well as some food matches to put out there. So how about we just choose a couple of different styles to recommend here and then put the rest on our website. Show notes.

Peter: Exactly. Good idea. We don't have limitless, time. So first up, we have some fizz in this. In. In the spirit of different styles, François mentioned sparkling wine. And this one is The Alain Voge Saint Peray le Boule Dala. Love that name. 2020. Brute nature. We all want a bit of Bulldana. This is traditional method, 100% Marsan. Four years on the leaves. And it's lovely, isn't it?

Susie: It's.

Peter: It's quite rustic with, with bruised apple, sort of nutty, honeyed aromas and a dry finish with. But sort of love that lovely sort of savoury, nutty, oxidative kick on the end. It's a bit different, isn't it? But it's really nice.

Susie: Yeah, yeah. Rhône cru fizz to get the party started. There we go. Now, I've got a white from the Southern Rhône which I adore. It is the Domain La monardiere Gallejade Vacqueyras 2023. Now, it's a blend of Roussanne Grenache Blanc and Clairette Blanche. And it is just gorgeous. You've got really intense aromatics, very sunny kind of yellow fruit and red apple and then a mealy, nutty, sort of honeyed complexity. And then on the palette, it's. It's broad, it's textured, it's spicy. Seriously complex. So much energy and just tonnes of character. Really foodie. I love it. I love it.

Peter: Yeah. Now I've got a red from The Northern Rhône this is the Yan Chave Crozes Hermitage Le Rouvre 2023. This is stunning.

Susie: It's very good, isn't it? Very, very.

Peter: It has a red fruited freshness and lift to it, but that classic Syrah peppery, savoury, meaty complexity. It's very long, it's very complicated, complex, very food friendly. It's just spot on, isn't it?

Susie: Yeah.

Peter: Fun fact here. Crozes Hermitage produces more than half of the total production of the Northern Rhône Cru It's by some distance, the largest Cru in the northern Rhone.

Susie: Good fact, Mr. Richards. And moving on to the Southern Rhône I've got the Domaine de Fenouillet Beaumes de Venise Terre Blanche 2023, a blend of Grenache, Syrah and Movedre. And this is good because it has really lifted floral aromas together with hints of pepper and Subway. And the palate is generous and spicy, but also with a meaty, peppery complexity and lift.

Peter: Yeah, I think working for freshness and savoury complexity is the way forward in the Southern Rhône You know, in an ever warming world, richness and ripeness is a given. So whether it's through stems or co fermentation, or seeking out elevation, or adapting grape variety selection, getting that balance right will be the key in the future.

Susie: So as we say, we don't have time to include all our recommendations from this epic tasting here, so we'll put more on our website show notes, do check them out. In the meantime, we had some food and wine recommendations from our interviewees to share, didn't we?

Peter: We did. First up, Mari Perret and Condrieu:

Marie Perret: My grandfather was a, fruit and vegetable producer. And asparagus is very hard to, to share with, wine and Conrieux with asparagus is very nice.

Peter: Green asparagus with butter, in origin.

Marie Perret: Is more white asparagus because we have the sand close to the Rhône and we have some asparagus and the white asparagus with mayonnaise at the beginning. And, some condreyeux is very, very nice.

Susie: Love that. here's another Northern Rhône white match from Guillaume Boissonnet for the pairing.

Guillaume Boissonnet: I've got the best pairing for a white St. Joseph. White St. Joseph with, risotto

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Guillaume Boissonnet: with, mushroom like, penny bun or ceps or maybe truffle is the perfect match for me, for St. Joseph. The association of the cream and the acidity and the richness of the white San Jose is just, perfect.

Peter: And finally, Matt Walls.

Matt Walls: So a really classic dish that I love is Daube de Boeuf Provencale, which is basically a beef stew, isn't it? But a particularly delicious one with a lot of the local kind of gai curbs like rosemary thyme. I would choose that with a bottle of Gigondas with maybe about 10 years of age to it, something with a little bit of age just to bring out the complexity. And I think those two together would just be a very delicious combination.

Peter: It sounds delicious. Why Gigondas particularly?

Matt Walls: Because I love Gigondas! I just love those wines. It's a really consistent appellation. It has, a very different terroir. Like sometimes people kind of lump Chateauneuf and Gigondas and the Crus of the Rhône like the Southern Rhône all in the same place hot. But if you look at the terroir, they are completely and utterly different. So Chateauneuf du Pape is quite kind of low rolling, lots of Gallihuli, kind of those roll, big rolled pebbles and sand, Gigondas. mountainous clay mar soils. And okay, so sure, a lot of the grape varieties are similar, but stylistically wine's very different. And what I love with Gigondas is the way that it ate ages. For me, it really kind of hits a sweet spot at around between 10 and 15 years. And you know, the wines, often they're not that expensive. So, you know, what I would encourage people to do is, you know, buy six by 12, you know, drink one a year and just make sure they put it away for a little while because then that's when it really shows its best, I think.

Susie: Top Rhone tips as ever from Mr. Walls. And now one final thing we did ask was about the future of the Rhône Cru And this was what Marie Perret said about.

Marie Perret: So now, all the Condrieu is planted. So now we have a new generation from my age who just, take the winery for their parents, most of it. And it's very nice because we know all each other and, we have, we have a very nice group for condo ye. So the future is good because. Because I think almost everybody has the same idea of chondrio, to keep this freshness and everything. So I think the future is good. We will have some issue like for, with climate change and everything, but, it's good to have a nice group of young people who just want to continue to increase the Condrieu appellation.

Peter: Good to hear the new generation is coming through. And I guess Marie is tangible proof of that. Guillaume too, in the St Joseph left context. There were quite a few young faces among the winemakers pouring at the tasting, weren't there?

Susie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Marie also mentioned quite a few young female winemakers coming through in COndrieu, which again, is heartening to hear. And this was what Matt Walls had to say about the future.

Matt Walls: The future's looking pretty bright, I would say. I think the white wines are in the ascendant, some of the roses of Tavel, you know, really exciting. quality in the reds is really pretty consistent and the value is good. So I think, you know, if people maybe are, ah, feeling a little bit skint like so many people are at the moment, you know, not just in the uk, but everywhere. I would say, you know, look to the Crus of Rhône because you can find some really delicious organic terroir driven wines made by family owned estates for £20, £25, you know, and not just that, but if you can buy a few of them, they age really well as well and they become more interesting over time.

Peter: They age really well and become more interesting over time. Just like, us, I wish anyway.

Susie: Not quite.

Peter: I won't ask your opinion of me in that regard. Talking of time passing, that's probably an appropriate note to end on. Would you like to wrap things up with a closing summary?

Susie: Delighted. So the Rhône Valley is a proper playground for wine lovers, with emblematic reds varying from scented, savoury northern Rhône Syrah, to complex, hearty southern Rhône Grenache and blends. But within the Rhone's top appellations, or Crus, there's so much more going on. From fine white to serious rose, even characterful fizz. The region is adapting to climate change and embracing sustainable practises, in the process becoming ever more diverse. They're even getting a bit rock and roll.

Peter: Roll, yeah. Thanks to Cote du Rhone Crus for sponsoring this episode and thanks also to our interviewees Marie Perret, Guillaume Boissonnet, François Miquel and Matt Walls. finally, thanks to you for

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Peter: listening. Until next time, cheers and we'll leave you in the fine company of Adult Leisure...