Natural Wine RELOADED

Is natural wine dead? Or is it thriving? What even IS natural wine these days?! Most importantly, what's next for this multi-faceted yet misunderstood category? 

Helping us answer these searching questions are writer and winemaker Rachel Signer, journalist Simon J Woolf and wine producer Ben Walgate. We also indulge in a bit of impassioned debate between the two of us - this being a particularly provocative topic. (It's not every episode that moves Peter to use the phrase, 'complete bollocks', and Susie to say, 'cheeky middle finger', but here we are.)

For example, did you know that the very term 'natural wine' itself is an unfortunate mis-translation? Are you familiar with, 'organic-PLUS' viticulture? Why hybrids may be the next big thing for natural producers? That natural wine is a philosophy, not a style? How the natural scene has influenced conventional wine? And the fact there's a new category of 'natural-adjacent' wines emerging..?

Click on this link and use the code WINEBLAST at checkout to get 25% off Rachel Signer's brand-new book, How to Drink Natural Wine.

Click on this link to get 25% off an annual subscription to Simon Woolf's Substack, The Morning Claret.

Thanks for tuning in. We love to hear from you so please do get in touch! Send us a voice message via Speakpipe. Or you can find all details from this episode, including links to previous episodes cited, on our website: Show notes for Wine Blast S7 E28 - Natural Wine RELOADED

To support the show, enjoy subscriber-only bonus content and discount benefits, access our full archive and get every episode before it goes on free release, subscribe to Wine Blast PLUS at wineblast.co.uk

Instagram: @susieandpeter

Transcript

We're diving into the world of 'misunderstood, maligned' natural wine

Susie Barrie MW 0:05

Hello and welcome to Wine Blast! It's great to have you with us. And you really don't want to miss this one because we're tackling what one well-informed Wine Blast PLUS subscriber described to us as 'the misunderstood, much maligned, and confusing issue' of natural wine.

Peter Richards MW 0:25

Yes, hello, welcome! Thanks for joining. We are indeed diving into the fast-flowing rapids of natural wine. It's timely and it's a wild ride. What even IS natural wine these days? Have we reached peak natural wine, is it effectively dead in the water? Or is natural wine thriving and set to keep growing? And perhaps there's another way of seeing natural wine's evolution, which sits somewhere between these positions and is actually a bit more nuanced and interesting when it comes to the future of wine in general. Either way, here's a taster of what's coming up.

Rachel Signer 1:00

Natural wine is actually exploding. People who make natural wine often live as if it is 150 years ago. Especially in this day and age when everything is really saturated with AI, we should take any romanticism we can possibly get.

Simon Woolf 1:16

And the whole thing can get very religious, you know, and people who are uh, you know, they've got their yoga mat in one hand and their 'no sulfites please' badge in the other. It's made people think. It's made the wider wine industry think about how we make wine and how we work in vineyards. We've had a massive broadening of what I would call well-made real wine.

Ben Walgate 1:37

I really believe that the best quality wines that I can make will have a little bit more of a touch than they used to when they were made naturally. So maybe natural wine isn't dead, but it certainly seems like the zeitgeist is definitely dissipated.

Susie Barrie MW 1:49

So getting spicy already! We heard there from writer and winemaker Rachel Signer, journalist Simon Woolf, and wine producer Ben Walgate. More from them all in due course. We also have some discounts to offer you associated with our brilliant guests. So keep your ears tuned for those. Most of all, we're gonna have a proper debate because my instinct is that you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this one...

Peter Richards MW 2:16

Your hunch is almost certainly correct. Uh as many a heated late night discussion will attest.

Setting the natural wine scene

Peter Richards MW 2:22

Uh, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. We need to start at the beginning, as ever. Uh now, you may already have listened to our pretty popular episode on natural wine from season three. Um, if you haven't already, do who we hear from natural wine champion Isabelle Legeron MW and how she had hate mail and other things early on. It's absolutely fascinating. But if not, let's begin with uh what natural wine is.

Susie Barrie MW 2:42

Yeah, so we'll discuss this with our interviewees, but essentially, natural wine is a broad brush term that generally refers to wines grown organically or biodynamically, then made with a low intervention philosophy. Typically small scale, often family-owned wineries, usually using very few treatments or additions and low levels of the of the multi-purpose preservative sulfur dioxide or SO2 or sulfites.

Peter Richards MW 3:07

Yeah, it stands in defiant opposition to what natural wine fans say are mass-produced wines grown using a host of systemic pesticides, fungicides, and herbicides, and then heavily manipulated in the winery. Natural wine began in the 1980s. It's essentially a protest movement about standardization and homogenization in the wine world, became very popular, especially with younger anti-establishment free spirits, and has since evolved as an ecosystem that now encompasses dedicated wine bars, retailers, distributors, and legions of dedicated fans around the world.

Susie Barrie MW 3:44

But the question now is what next for natural wine? Was it just a paradigm shift, a temporary vector or trend that helped instigate or catalyse necessary change in the wine world, but which will end up becoming redundant as the world moves on? Or is it evolving, adapting, growing, and perhaps whisper it, being partly subsumed into the conventional wine blob, albeit with positive implications?

Rachel Signer interview

Peter Richards MW 4:12

So these are the big questions we want to tackle in this episode. And who better to start answering than Rachel Signer, whose brand new book, How to Drink Natural Wine, has just been published by Mitchell Beazley. Um, by way of context, Rachel started out as a fiction writer with a background in cultural anthropology. She got into wine by accident, working in a restaurant in New York City that championed natural wine. She went on to found a print magazine focused on natural wine called Pipette, wrote a memoir, You had me at Pet Nat, and ended up living in the Adelaide Hills in Australia, writing and making natural wine, which is where she was when we spoke, uh, having banished incidentally her poor husband and daughter to the pub so we could have peace and quiet.

Susie Barrie MW 4:54

So there is a nice link here with our previous episode where we touched on the vibrant natural wine scene in the Adelaide Hills. Uh, check it out if you haven't heard that one yet. Uh, by way of recent update, uh, we believe Rachel isn't currently making wine because of a bad back, and the work being very physical. Um, the family are also going on an extended sabbatical to Italy, which sounds delightful.

Peter Richards MW 5:16

Yeah, uh, we did ask Rachel about the title of her book, How to Drink Natural Wine. She said it's a real question people have, especially the younger generations. Uh, the category is interesting, it's also reasonably expensive. So people need a little advice to get them on this journey discovering this fascinating category of wine.

Susie Barrie MW 5:34

She also describes natural wine as special. And I asked her, what makes it special?

Rachel Signer 5:40

I still remember the first time I tasted a natural wine, and the flavours were not like anything I had ever experienced. There was a tiny bit of spritz, there was a an earthiness that reminded me specifically of the tomatoes my mother grew in our backyard. And the actual fruit profile, like the actual profile of it was it was a Gamay from Olivier Cousin, it was just more intense than any experience that I'd ever had with wine. I guess I think that's special. I think that's special that this romantic old-fashioned way of making wine can produce something so unique year after year. Because if I tried that exact wine five years later, it could be really quite different. The way it captures not just the time and the place, but also interestingly, the personality of the maker. I think that's quite special. And when I tasted it, something really changed in me, something happened, and I just went down the rabbit hole.

Susie Barrie MW 6:57

Now we all know natural wine has different aspects to it. For you, what are the most important ones?

Rachel Signer 7:04

I think that 'organic plus' viticulture is by far the most important. And why I say organic plus, it's not that it must be organic certified or it it must be a specific kind of organic. It needs to be that there is organic farming plus something. So plus regenerative soil work, or plus thinking about how to reduce electricity usage or reduce plastic waste. I think that the essential component of sustainably farming land that grows the wine is of the utmost importance.

Susie Barrie MW 7:47

And how has the natural wine category evolved in recent years? Um, you call it 'a wild global journey after it was initially dismissed as a fleeting trend'. Where is it now, given it's become fairly well established now around the world?

Rachel Signer 8:05

It's growing and it's it's super exciting. Natural wine is actually exploding. There are increasingly new producers in all sorts of regions, even regions where you wouldn't expect they would be making natural wine, such as Japan or in Brazil, um Mexico and the Valley of Guadalupe. I think that natural wine has exploded in in terms of how many, how many young people are giving it a go and just trying to find a little patch of land or find a mentor or find a way that they can live this lifestyle because it's it's really beautiful to make this kind of wine. And there are also amazing new communities popping up about natural wine. And so I do think that there's a really nice welcoming um aspect to natural wine culture right now. And I hope that the book fits right into that as well.

Susie Barrie MW 9:05

Because you do write, you know, um, 'exploring natural wine is a social process'. Um, and as you say, there are there are wine fairs, there are lots of natural wine fairs and events. Um, I mean, is it is natural wine just as much about being part of a tribe, a community, um, or a form of self-expression as it is about the wine itself, do you think?

Rachel Signer 9:27

Some of the most fascinating people I know are in the world of natural wine. Whether they're making it or they're on the distribution side, it's an incredible, it's an incredible just collection of eclectic individuals. And in that sense, it's it's a wonderful community. And exploring natural wine is a great way to meet a lot of different people who, by the way, don't always have backgrounds in wine. I always say that the best way to explore a genre like natural wine is to form a tasting group with friends. It lowers the cost barrier a lot, and then eventually you can also get into things like blind tasting. And I had one of those groups in New York City, and I it's like my core memories of my um late 20s is getting together with these people, and we would just talk for hours about the wines. We couldn't talk about them enough. And I think it's really beautiful. People are on their phones a lot these days, and if you have a few nice wines open, I think you can just put your phones down and really get into it, talk about the place, you know, and have a conversation.

Susie Barrie MW 10:37

Some winemakers we've talked to are moderating how naturally they make their wines, for example, using a bit more sulfur or filtering, but still aiming to make wines that are essentially low-tech, artisanal, traditional in style. What's your take on that?

Rachel Signer 10:55

There is a spectrum, and it's really important to recognizs that, and it's important not to be exclusionary. And I have respect for anyone that makes authentic wine, anything, anything that's not trucks of juice coming in and then machines making the wine, because that does exist. Anything that's about human touch and place is really, really beautiful. However, on a personal level, I'm always going to be very attracted to wines that are made entirely with grapes. And I just find, I just find that they can be so exceptionally good that it's forever interesting to explore that very specific genre. Um, but I don't think anyone should, there's no need within the kind of movement of natural wine to make judgment. Um, I do, I do think it's good if winemakers say what they're doing. For example, I can think of one producer in southern France that's kind of in the natural wine scene, and their New York importer is a big natural wine importer. And they have always stated very clearly on their website that they use a particulate filtration. So not like a sterile filtration. They get the matter out of their wines because their wines had too much matter and they didn't want to release them with sediment. I think it's just really good that the information's out there. By contrast, I can think of a beloved winemaker who started out making entirely natural wines, only grapes, and the volatile acidity was quite high. Ten years later, he's adding fairly significant sulfite additions, and he's never come out publicly and said it, and none of his distributors have. And I just feel that it is really good to um state clearly what you're doing if you change.

Susie Barrie MW 12:57

Now you describe natural wine in your introduction to the book as uh non-commercial, anti-corporate, um, and a return to the peasant roots of wine making. Is there a risk that natural wine overly romanticizes wine production?

Rachel Signer 13:14

I don't see any reason why not to make it as romantic as it possibly can be! The people I've met who make natural wine are so extraordinarily romantic. People who make natural wine often live as if it is 150 years ago. I know that they're using Instagram, but there are plenty of natural winemakers using horses to till their vineyards. Gut Oggau is one, Francois Saint-Lô is another. I think that, especially in this day and age when everything is really saturated with AI, I think we should take any romanticism we can possibly get. People who write by hand, people who weave, people who make wine with a horse and a wooden basket dress. So I actually love to celebrate this romanticism.

Susie Barrie MW 14:12

Rachel, how do you see the future for natural wines?

Rachel Signer 14:16

I suspect we are going to see hybrids becoming more favoured by natural wine producers. I think that we're going to see people working with varieties that are not 100% vitis vinifera to try to combat the way climate change is ruining, ruining harvest year after year. I'm thinking of, for example, Romain de Grottes in Beaujolais, who makes a wine entirely planted from his own vineyard of hybrids. In Beaujolais, hybrids. And I'm thinking as well of wine in the United States and wine in the UK and Canada. Um, and these cooler climates becoming increasingly interesting and increasingly able to ripen grapes. And I'm hoping that there's a lot of research out there about creating hybrids that can withstand climate change. I also just think we need to be doing more to think about climate change in general. And that would just mean regenerative agriculture, thinking about ways to um give back to the soil, and also perhaps being more part of a local economy and exporting wine less.

Susie Barrie MW 15:42

Rachel, thank you so much.

Rachel Signer 15:45

Thank you, Susie. This was really fun. I really appreciated it.

Peter Richards MW 15:53

So hybrids, uh, that's interesting. I know. Something we have discussed before in the pod back in um season six, wasn't it? The vines of the future are here. I mean, you know, it makes sense. If natural wine is first and foremost about being sustainable in the vineyard, a point Rachel highlights, then having vines that need fewer treatments because they've been bred that way is logical, I guess.

Susie Barrie MW 16:12

I also liked her um organic plus idea because one thing we've said before is that organics poorly done can have some pretty bad results, you know, more tractor emissions and copper in the soil. Because you can treat with sulfur and copper sulfate in organic viticulture, or you can get organic wines in really heavy bottles, which again means more carbon emissions, which seems crazy. And she mentioned regenerative viticulture, which is a lot about prioritising soil health, and it's becoming a big thing in wine, but which isn't necessarily part of organic policy.

Peter Richards MW 16:48

Yeah, so so being mindful of the bigger sustainability picture, really important. Um, one thing that does trouble me though, and I'm interested here, is is this danger of over-romanticising natural wine. I mean, I love her point that we need some romance in the world, absolutely. Yeah. You know, and there's a place for traditional artisans who embrace historic practices, fine, you know, in a world, especially in a world that's increasingly technological. But I also think that can easily become or tip over into sort of stubborn dogma or refusal to engage with the latest knowledge or science when it actually could be helpful in all around.

Susie Barrie MW 17:22

I mean, as she did point out though, the irony, didn't she, uh saying that some producers live like it's 1870 but are big on Instagram. It would be lovely if natural wine can engage new generations and get people passionate about wine and get them off their phones. Um but so much of the communication about this new wave stuff is online or on phones. Um but what did you think about her point about natural wine being a spectrum and not being exclusionary?

Peter Richards MW 17:52

Yeah, I I don't know about you, I thought she was spot on there, um, particularly about the importance of transparency. Um I think the future of natural wine is people being honest and open about what they're doing, being positive about what they do, not critical about what other people are doing, you know, embracing their point on the spectrum for authentic reasons, not excluding others, telling those stories and finding their audience on that basis and being welcoming, you know, not a sort of tribal community.

Susie Barrie MW 18:19

I did love her story about that formative wine and then going down the rabbit hole. Um in the book, she says it was like the moment in The Wizard of Oz when the film suddenly turns to colour, something truly wild. And and good wine can do that. And when it happens, it is beautiful. You know, in the book, Rachel highlights the important ritual role of wine in ancient cultures. And it's really important right now when wine has so many critics that these wonderfully positive aspects of wine are recognised and championed. And natural wine can clearly do that.

Peter Richards MW 18:53

Yeah, I'd argue conventional wine can do that too. But you know, fair enough, yeah. The key point is the two don't have to be binary, do they? They don't have to be polar opposites. There's more that unites them than divides them, um, which is the perfect moment, I think, for a quick break.

MID-EPISODE RECAP

Peter Richards MW 19:07

To recap so far, natural wine is evolving, and as it does, it's changing wine as we know it. The question is, where does it go from here?

Susie Barrie MW 19:16

So we've featured Rachel Signer and her brand new book, How to Drink Natural Wine, which is out now and for which we can offer you, our loyal listeners, 25% off. Uh, just check out our show notes for the discount code and link.

Simon Woolf interview

Susie Barrie MW 19:30

Next up, we're chatting with writer and friend of the pod, Simon Woolf, an expert on natural and orange wine, who's published a couple of books and who writes on the Substack themorningclaret.com, which we'd definitely recommend and for which we also have a 25% discount. We'll put that on the on the show notes too.

Peter Richards MW 19:48

Discount crazy! Here we go, wine blast. Anyway, some great stuff there. Now, Simon first got into natural wine 15 years ago when he started tasting them, and he said 'they just had this energy to them, a va va-voom that took me by surprise and was quite shocking at first'. He says it's like food. The less you muck around with it, the more exciting it potentially tastes. I asked Simon what the most important aspects of natural wine are for him.

Simon Woolf 20:14

I think the most important, and maybe the one that is most poorly understood and sidelined by a lot of people who drink natural wine, is the farming. To me, good wine, uh wine made without additives has to start with top quality, healthy grapes. And if you're spraying synthetic chemicals, god knows what, fertilizers, pesticides all over the place, there's no way that you're going to be successful making anything that I would call natural wine.

Peter Richards MW 20:44

And and and why is a big difficult question, I know, but why is natural wine so contentious?

Simon Woolf 20:50

Yeah, this I I ask myself this question all the time, and I think it's it's sadly comes down to terminology. Um I think this this phrase, uh which we can talk about and we can talk about where that came from and why it might be quite a ridiculous phrase. It really got people's backs up because I think the first thing people would ask, well, if you're calling what you do natural wine, then that implies that what I do is unnatural wine. So I think it got people's backs up because maybe because there was a certain amount of preaching uh at the beginning, you know, that natural wine has had and still has its acolytes, and the whole thing can get very religious, you know, and people who uh you know they've got their yoga mat in one hand and their 'no sulfites please' badge in the other, you know.

Peter Richards MW 21:39

So sorry to interrupt, but do you do would you put yourself in that club or not?

Simon Woolf 21:44

No, I wouldn't. I mean I'm quite open minded. Um I think it's I think natural wine is a it's a standard to aim for. You know, for me it's a curve. I just want to drink stuff that's been messed around with and processed as little as possible. I think the one n non negotiable for me is the farming though. I really don't want to drink wine that's been sprayed with pesticides. I mean these are grapes, you know, and if they're red wines or orange wines, uh the skins are in there, you know. Th the the there are residues and I'd you know obviously, Peter, as you know, my body is a temple, you know. And I'd just rather not have those things floating around inside me if I can avoid it.

Peter Richards MW 22:25

And I wouldn't like to have those things floating around inside you either, as you say, if you're an object lesson physically to the rest of the trade. Uh but just let's get let's get on. I want to ask you a bit more about this, the origin of the term natural wine, because of course it can be divisive, as you've said, but there's a really interesting couple of points to be made about the origin of the nomenclature, isn't there?

Simon Woolf 22:43

Oh yeah, I mean this is where it gets really interesting. I mean, if you if you most people would would date the movement back to the the 1980s, you know, when the work of uh Jules Chauvet uh and his and his colleagues and the the Gang of Five uh really sort of put these ideas of making wine with spontaneous ferments and making wine without added sulphites or very low sulfites, they put all these ideas on the map. And then you started seeing these wines put up for sale in Paris initially. You know, I think that was that's really where if we talk about a movement, that's where it kicked off. And I think that you know the terms that you know any anyone who visited Paris in, let's say, the 90s, they'll they'll remember you had these venues popping up, little places called Caves A Vins Sans Soufre, you know, a place where you can buy wines without sulfites. Uh or people would, you know, they'd sometimes call them vins natures, van naturels. But vin nature, somewhere along the way, got mistranslated. It's a false friend in French. And it doesn't mean natural, it means without additives. You know, it's like the example I always use, and I have to thank Andrew Jefford, uh, a much smarter man than me, because he he suggested this analogy. You know, yogurt nature is yogurt without fruit, without sugar, without anything. And vin nature, in its initial form, it was this idea that you could make wine without adding anything, without adding yeast, without adding sulfites, without adding enzymes, god knows what. So I think we've we've sort of been left with a mistranslation that to a certain extent has cooked the movement's goose.

Peter Richards MW 24:27

Simon, how has the natural wine category evolved in in recent years?

Simon Woolf 24:32

Yeah, I mean I think I think it's evolved in multiple directions. And obviously, it's it's become massively popular, especially with um uh you know a younger generation of wine drinkers. You know, natural wine is drunk by millions of people around the globe, and there's a whole ecosystem of wine fairs, winemakers, importers that didn't exist 20 years ago. But I think with that popularity, of course, uh uh have come problems. Uh I think there are still people that want to discredit the movement. There are big wine, if we can call it that, is still gets quite annoyed with natural wine because uh you know people can be very uh you know, they can very be very sacrimonious sometimes. Um as if you know the natural wine uh movement, you know, natural wine is the only thing and everything else is rubbish. Um so I think there are there are still people who want who want to damn it. Um I think maybe the biggest problem though that I've seen more and more is consumers, maybe wine professionals as well, having this fixed idea in their head that natural wine means a particular style. Um, and this is something that I speak with people about endlessly. And people say, well, the problem is everybody thinks natural wine, it's glou-glou reds, uh, weird orange wines with with you know with raspy tannins, and you know, just wines that have off smells, they smell like vinegar and they taste like cider. And people, you know, they want they want to pigeonhole it, they want to, you know, they've they imagine these cliches, and I and that has led to an ever-increasing number of winemakers, even sometimes bar restaurant owners, saying, I don't want anything to do with this term anymore because it's hurting me.

Peter Richards MW 26:26

Interesting. Um, and how do you see the process going from here? You know, will natural wine uh and the community keep growing in appeal and importance, or uh have we reached peak natural wine?

Simon Woolf 26:38

I mean, everybody keeps saying we've reached peak natural wine and then it keeps growing! But I think I would see I would see the natural wine movement. You you have a small core at the natural wine movement, and it's a kind of agitator. It's made people think, it's made the wider wine industry think about uh how we make wine, how we work in vineyards. And I think a lot of those findings, a lot of those philosophical constructs have have they've kind of leaked out, they've they've that's the wrong word. I'm trying to think of a more positive word, they've they've propagated um across the entire industry. And I think in general, um, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that without the natural wine movement, we maybe wouldn't have seen the massive decrease in sulfite usage uh that we see now versus 20 or 30 years ago. So I think to me, in a way, the natural wine movement has already proved its point. I think what you now have is you now have all of these in-between zones. You have you have people who are on a curve, you know, they're they're like, well, I've real they've realised they don't need to add yeast, they've realised they can work with less sulfites, they've realised they can back away from herbicides and pesticides in the vineyard. Maybe they're still, you know, they're still a little bit risk-averse and they wouldn't go quite as far as some of the radicals would. Bit of temperature control, bit of filtration. But I think you have you have all of these natural adjacent areas in wine now. Uh, and people have come up with very creative ways of talking about them, you know, it's artisanal, it's low intervention, it's what have you. So that to me is very important because it we've had a massive broadening of what I would call well made well-made real wine.

Peter Richards MW 28:23

That's really interesting. I mean, is there also a place for consistency, reliability, and accessibility in wine, like the kind that the bigger, let's play, say, supermarket brands provide?

Simon Woolf 28:35

I think there is, and I'm to be honest, I think a good natural grower also understands that. Um, and many of the winemakers I love, I mean, they're they work in a smart way. I think smart, smart business sense when you're a winemaker is okay, my entry-level cuvees, I'm gonna make sure that they are consistent year in, year out. A, because they're the wine that I sell the most of, and B because they're the wines that are gonna be maybe drunk by a more unassuming crowd. Uh so I think consistency is important right across the board. You know, I don't I I think it's arrogant and stupid from a business sense of a winemaker to uh not make any attempt uh to be consistent. Um but at the same time, especially as you go higher up the price range, maybe you know, single vineyard cuvee, something like that, then I think there is more acceptance that we really do want to taste the year, and the kind of people who will be buying those more premium wines don't accept the same consistency. So, yes, I think consistency is important, but it doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be right across the board. You know, no, if you buy, you know, Grand Cru, Bordeaux, or Burgundy, you'd be a bit disappointed if every year tasted the same.

Peter Richards MW 29:50

And you mentioned business sense. The commercial aspect of of winemaking isn't something that often gets discussed too much, um, but obviously it's hugely important that a business can can sustain itself. There's also seems to be some attitudes uh in the natural wine world that it should be maybe it's slightly uh romanticized and that there's no place for corporate players or or or that sort of commercial side of things. Where do you where do you stand on that?

Simon Woolf 30:14

Yeah, I mean I think it's ridiculous to a certain extent. I think maybe it's it's difficult to draw a line. I know I have heard people express the view that if you if your winery, if your estate becomes big enough that you start to need employees outside the family, then you're not making natural wine. Um, I think that's ridiculous. I think that's far too far romanticized, and I think actually many of the world's most iconic natural winemakers, you know, a lot of the Austrians spring to mind, people like Gut Oggau, um, or you have uh La Stoppa in Emilia Romagna. You know, these are actually quite big operations these days. They're hugely successful, uh, and they're successful because they understand how a business works, they understand how to market themselves. I think though there is a there is a wealth of difference between, I don't know, a Gallo Brothers and a family-led estate making quarter of a million, half a million bottles of a year, you know, the and the motivation is usually different. I think if the motivation is to is to corner the market, to to dominate, uh, to be on every supermarket shelf, um, that's very different than the motivation to be um good stewards of the land, to make the best wine that you possibly could. And I'm not saying that people in big corporate wines maybe don't also think these things at some stage, but I think there is a fundamentally different motivation. Um and if if there is a dividing line, then it then it's going to be that, you know, why you know, why did you start making wine? I think as soon as as soon as people mention the word brand, then I start to I start to uh suspect.

Peter Richards MW 32:01

Depends on your definition of brand, then I suppose! Let's not get into that. Um Simon, how do you see the future for natural wine?

Simon Woolf 32:08

Yeah, it's such a tough question, isn't it? I you know, with the wine wine is under such a lot of flack right now. It's been dragged into the big alcohol arena, the you know, the anti-alcohol league trying to uh make it even more restricted than it already is. And I think these are the problems that we have to solve right now. And in a way, you know, natural wine is an important part of this conversation. I think maybe it's um maybe it's important because it's it's a more premium sector in wine. And I think that's the way the wine has to go. I mean when you look at the when you look at what's going on right now, I think it's it's the bulk producers of wine that are having the hardest time because the bottom is dropping out of that part of the market. So I so I think there is a very positive future for natural wine. I would just yeah, I would just really like to remove the the sort of ghetto element of it uh as much as possible. And I think it's happened to a certain extent, and I hope that it will continue to happen. You know, I hope that we could just again we could talk about points on a curve where everything has to be binary all the time.

Peter Richards MW 33:18

Simon, thank you very much indeed.

Simon Woolf 33:21

Thank you, Peter.

Susie Barrie MW 33:27

He's such a reasonable chap, Simon, isn't he? And a good writer. Um again, like Rachel, he talks about points on a curve or spectrum, not just binary opposition. And his point about the term natural wine essentially being an unfortunate mistranslation, which has got a lot of people's backs up unnecessarily. I mean, that's intriguing.

Peter Richards MW 33:48

It's a brilliant, absolutely brilliant point. Very well made. And I mean, Rachel made a similar point, you know, that they both suggested alternatives like minimal intervention or lo-fi or real or authentic wine, but they both conceded, as I think we probably would, that natural wine, you know, has kind of won out for better or worse, and we're kind of stuck with it.

'Complete bollocks'

Peter Richards MW 34:05

I mean, what Simon raises, and and this is more relevant to my mind, is the way that some natural wine acolytes, I think that's his word, can then be, you know, preachy or dogmatic. Uh, and and and this is what inflames the conflict and tension. And and there are two areas that I'd highlight here, particularly criticising conventional wine and then flaws or faults.

Susie Barrie MW 34:27

Go on...

Peter Richards MW 34:28

Um, okay, you can see me getting on my high horse , you're just sort of buttoning down the hatches. Okay. Look, listen, I think it's fine if natural producers do their thing, lead by example. If you want to farm organically and use minimal additives or processing agents, brilliant, fantastic. But I think it's profoundly unhelpful to then lob bombs at conventional producers in ways that are sometimes, you know, unfair or overdone, you know, by implying that all or most conventional wine is mass-produced slop or utterly lobotomised from using hundreds of additives and processing agents. Or that all additives and treatments are designed to make a wine taste totally homogenised. That may be true of a very small minority, but it is a gross generalisation and it crops up all too often. There are many wines that aren't natural that still express terroir and vintage and are very fine wines.

Susie Barrie MW 35:16

But the point of principle still stands, doesn't it? You know, vineyard sprays can ruin ecosystems and degrade soils. There is a very long list of additives or processing agents allowed in wine, which don't then usually have to be on the label. I mean, we'd ideally like all wine producers to be more sustainable, more transparent, and less interventionist, wouldn't we?

Peter Richards MW 35:38

Yeah, of course, of course. Um but it's it's the preachy and dogmatic criticism that rankles, I think, particularly when people aren't winemakers who don't have that hands-on practical experience. Look, live and let live uh should be the philosophy to my mind. Not all treatments or additives are inherently bad by any means either. But anyway, the the second point I wanted to come on to is when it comes to flaws or faults in wine, you know, something we, of course, explored with the brilliant Sietze o Wijma in Tainted Love from season six. That was a fun episode to do. But you know, I profoundly disagree with the relativism on this that some parts of the natural wine community condone. They say, oh, faults, flaws, they're just part of the authenticity of a wine or its kind of earthy rustic charm. One journal I read called faulty wine, 'punk rock winemaking'!

Susie Barrie MW 36:26

Yeah, but I mean come on. I think we need to be a bit more open-minded about this. You know, I mean, be honest. We often like a wine with a bit of edge, with a bit of funk. You know, technically proficient and squeaky clean wines can be really boring. You know, a touch of Brettanomyces or Brett can give meaty, gamey complexity, and that's fun. You know, a bit of controlled oxidation can make a wine much more interesting and edgy. Volatile acidity or VA can sometimes lift a wine's aromatics.

Peter Richards MW 36:58

Okay, listen, listen, I agree, I agree, I agree. Fair point, well made, 100%. But we come back to that spectrum, you know. So, so so here's a quote. I'm I wanna I want to get your take on it. Here's a quote I've got from a natural winemaker, okay? 'Not adding sulfites is partly about embracing the fact that the wine is not yours to control and about acknowledging its right to self-determination, philosophically speaking.' What do you think about that statement?

Susie Barrie MW 37:25

I um I think I respect the dedication and the aspiration, but I can see where the potential problems lie...

Peter Richards MW 37:35

Yeah, quite, quite, quite. And it's for me, it's it's very simple. In a technical terminology, it's complete bollocks.

Susie Barrie MW 37:41

I thought you might say that!

Peter Richards MW 37:43

I mean, what is the job of a winemaker other than to make a palatable beverage?! No, I mean, if you need to use sulfites because otherwise your wine is going to taste like shit, use sulfites! I mean, you wouldn't tolerate a cheesemaker selling you rancid cheese or a butcher selling you putrid meat, you know, or if your pilot crashes the plane because that was its destiny, philosophically speaking. You know, so TCA or Halo taint, you know, makes a wine faulty. No question. Uh, and that's not just from corks, by the way. Uh, mousiness is a clear fault, even though many natural wine fans apparently disagree. These wines are spoiled. They're, objectively speaking, disgusting. How many people will be put off wine for life by trying a faulty wine like this that tastes disgusting and thinking it's normal? That's that's a key point. Okay, you know, a little bit of oxidation or brett can work. I will concede that. Uh, you know, but the key though, as you said, is the word 'controlled'. You need a winemaker, you need a winemaker who knows what they're doing. The problem with Brett is, of course, as we know, if it gets into bottles unchecked, some bottles may be good, but some may be terrible. So it's about being able to give people assurances over quality. That's kind of baseline standard, no, if you're selling a product.

Susie Barrie MW 38:53

Yeah, yeah. I mean, Rachel actually made the point that making natural wine is not for amateurs. You know, she stressed that to make good low-intervention wine, you really need to know what you're doing and have a good mentor. Um I mean, she told a story about ruining herself ruining a batch of perfectly good Chardonnay by fermenting it too hot and wild, and it was ruined by VA, but she still tried to sell it, which was a big mistake. Um now she uses it apparently to braise her Osso Buco. Anyway, I get the feeling the debate on flaws and faults will rumble away.

Peter Richards MW 39:28

I think it may do. I think it may do. Uh, please feel free to send in your comments. But you know, Simon talked about sulfites as like the winemaker being a good parent. Um, if the child, or wine in this case, is going off the rails, you intervene judiciously to end up creating a wine, and I quote, that is more enjoyable for everyone. I think we'd all agree that's a good thing. Uh, but he added that too much SO2 can be like a facelift or Botox, I guess. He says it freezes a wine in time and makes it less expressive.

Susie Barrie MW 39:54

He also stressed the fact that natural wine is a philosophy, not a style. You know, he defines it as expect the unexpected, which can be shocking or surprising. Partly because wine has, as he puts it, become more technology driven and interventionist, whereas natural wine can be raw, more rootsy, a little unkempt, but then can't we all? Life's just like that, as he says. Uh, but he was at pains to stress natural wine isn't just glou-glou reds and orange whites. You know, for him, it's about good farming and minimal intervention or additions.

Peter Richards MW 40:30

I thought it was really interesting on how natural wine has influenced mainstream wine to minimise vineyard sprays, to reduce sulfite additions. So now we have lots of what he says are 'natural adjacent' styles. Uh, he says it's been a sea change in conventional wine, spurred by natural wine. And clearly he thinks natural wine as a bright future, you know, as part of wine's premium mix in the fight against declining consumption and the anti-alcohol lobby.

Susie Barrie MW 40:55

Just hopefully with less polarisation about it. Um

Ben Walgate interview

Susie Barrie MW 40:58

so now we should bring in our final guest, English winemaker Ben Walgate. Ben comes from a long line of farmers in Yorkshire. Uh, he got into wine temping for Majestic while at university. He then travelled in Europe and Burgundy before training at Plumpton and working in various roles in the English wine industry, including publicly listed Corporation Gusborne and then Tillingham, which he describes as his more natural, experimental phase.

Peter Richards MW 41:26

He sounds like a rock star, doesn't he?

Susie Barrie MW 41:27

Going through a sort of rock star.

Peter Richards MW 41:30

I suppose there's a lot of crossover. I think it's fair to say that Ben has hands-on experience of both ends of the wine spectrum, natural and conventional. So a very interesting mind to pick. In 2023, he set up his own negotiant winemaking project at Walgate with a winery in Rye, East Sussex, and buying fruit, mainly Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, from growers in East Anglia and Essex. Um, the interesting thing about Walgate is it's kind of a new wave fusion winery. Uh, Ben describes it as 'bridging two defining movements in modern English wine: the technical precision of large-scale sparkling production and the regenerative ecosystem-led philosophy of contemporary low-intervention winemaking'.

Susie Barrie MW 42:14

Note the absence of the term 'natural' there. Um So is this the third way for wine? Bringing together a bit of natural with a bit of conventional to find a positive compromise. Ben says when he started down the natural wine route, he was very naive, romantic, and dewy-eyed. But as he says, there was a sort of poetry to it that really enticed me. He admits to making mistakes at Tillingham, taking things to extremes, which sometimes paid off. They got listings at Noma and did pretty well generally, but also sometimes didn't.

Peter Richards MW 42:48

So how has he changed now? He's not natural because he buys in grapes, some from non-organic vineyards. Plus, he says he doesn't want to call himself natural because it comes with, and I quote, 'a whole set of problems on quality and faults I want to distance myself from'. So what's he aiming to do?

Ben Walgate 43:06

It's like when you meet a vegan, and it's the first thing they tell you is they're a vegan. It's like, I want you to meet me and enjoy my wines as you find them. I don't want to ram it down your throat that they're made one way or another. You know, there are fine wines that exist in the world that might be biodynamic and they might be vegan, but you'd never know, right? And I think that's the point. The point is I want the wines to do the talking first. I don't want the dogma to be the first thing that hits you in the face. But I suppose in the winery, in the winery where there's the most sort of the the movement is uh away from more rigid natural wine um methods has sort of shifted. And it's it's from the experience that I've had over the last few years of wanting the wines to be the best that they can be. And I think in the beginning there was this naivety that if anything that you anything that you added or any interventions you made in the wine who detracted from their sort of essential truth, the the the quality that they arrived in from the vineyard. Okay. That can work, but in a lot of cases it can go wrong. And you can get back, you know, rogue characters coming in from whether it's lactic bacteria or rogue yeasts, you can get brett, you can get volatile acidity. There's all of these pathways that the wine can go down. And not necessarily in a major way, even in a very subtle way. I think they actually get in the way of the wine's quality. And I think there's some quarters with natural wine, there's a novelty to those faults, which makes the wines kind of endearing. But I think ultimately there's too much inconsistency and too much variability. And I really believe that the best quality wines that I can make will have a little bit more of a touch than they used to when they were made naturally. So examples would be where maybe being a bit cleaner with the with the juice not taking quite so many solids into the tank. We might, in some cases, where there's a question mark about fruit quality, we might introduce a little bit of sulphur at harvest time. And then beyond that, um, we maybe look to include a little bit more sulfur at first racking in the spring. And we're maybe moving towards doing a very, very, very light filtration, what I call like a rock blocker, nothing near sterile, something that can just give the wines a bit more clarity, especially with the whites. But personally, it's just that that fine-tuning and just tweaking the wine and giving them a bit more finesse.

Susie Barrie MW 45:25

Yeah. Do you think you've lost anything? And presumably you've gained things as well.

Ben Walgate 45:30

I I don't think we lose. I think we do it's it's we're only gaining. We might lose some purist followers who feel that we're maybe selling out because inevitably there are going to be people who who who take that position. But I think I'm gonna I've always stuck to my guns, I've always done what I felt was right for my wines. And I really feel that, say, for example, in 2022, and those wines have of you know, of soul are selling through now, and we're about to move to 2023. Um, some of those wines I wish I'd done things a little bit differently. The way I'm really proud of them, but I think if I'd made them a little bit differently, they'd be drinking, they'd be more approachable now. Uh, and people have got much more enjoyment out of them. I might have got more rewards if I'd made the wines in a way where they were more ready to drink and more accessible. Whereas the 23s, you know, changed the approach a little bit, longer time in the cellar, longer bottle conditioning before release, and those wines off the bat are much, much more approachable and much easier to drink. So it's a combination of a growth in experience, but also tweaking that the winemaking approach as well.

Susie Barrie MW 46:36

Because you've said in the past that some of your full-on natural wines were, and I quote, sort of less accessible, therefore often misunderstood or overlooked.

Ben Walgate 46:47

Yeah, and some of them were crap!! No, I mean I did make some wines I really I'm really pleased with, and I've kept some of those ones from 2017, uh, the inaugural vintage at Tillingham, and they they really, even with zero sulphur and coming from low alcohol and stuff, some of them are resplendent now. There was 105 wines over six vintages. So that's that's quite a lot. So within that, you know, there were there were probably you know half a dozen cuvees of wines which were very, very experimental and with zero sulphur, they developed faults in the bottle and they weren't very good. So yeah, I I think I asked a lot of a loss a lot of some of the people who came to Tillingham. And obviously the people who came were who were already natural natural line winisters and very much sort of drinking the natural wine Kool-Aid, we're all like, you know, this is great, we love it. Um, but some people will, you know, would would never have picked up a bottle of Tillingham again after some of the experiences they might have had.

Susie Barrie MW 47:52

And just looking at making wine in the UK, the reality of making wine in the UK, what is it that's particularly challenging if you want to take the full natural wine route?

Ben Walgate 48:04

There's no real challenges to making it. I'd caution that there's already quite a few, I probably could name a dozen wine brands that are working in that sort of natural, natural space. And I think it's quite hard. I think it's it's a it's a niche market within a niche market. Um, and how much how much is it true to say that you know uh natural wine's had its moment? I think it's a lot harder now than it was, say, five years ago to sell those wines, especially at the price they need to command. And that's a challenge in in general for English wine, is the cost of production is incredibly high, and that combined with our domestic tax duty uh makes the wines incredibly expensive, and we're not by any means on a level playing field with our competition, whether that's in Europe or or elsewhere. So it's a it's a very, very tricky game. And I think if I didn't have a very uh successful hospitality side hustle going on, it would be next to impossible to make any money doing what I do unless you get to a certain a certain scale.

Susie Barrie MW 49:10

And what are the things you would never compromise on?

Ben Walgate 49:14

I'll always want my wines to have their je ne sais quoi. That's that's they're part of me that's that's a non-negotiable, right? And there's a there's my recipe is my recipe, and um I'm never going to um sort of throw that out the window and sort of start adopting uh a winemaking approach or style just to cash in on it. Uh I'm never also going to turn my back on um trying to find growers who are ticking the boxes for me in terms of you know what they're doing in the vineyards and how sustainable that is. And you know, the dream would be to um move to having you know control, 100% control of my own production and my own vineyards and farming those regeneratively and in the best possible way that they could be farmed. And that's one thing that I sorely miss from no longer having my own vineyards, which is obviously a big part of what Tillingham meant. So those are things I wouldn't do, and the things I'd love to have, as I said, would be would be those those dream vineyards nestled somewhere in North Essex, Suffolk. That's the the dream place for me right now.

Susie Barrie MW 50:16

Looking at the bigger picture, how has the natural wine scene evolved in recent years and where are we now with natural wine globally?

Ben Walgate 50:26

I'm not following it as closely as I was, but the feedback I'm getting, because I still share, I'm still working with importers who I worked with when the wines ticked that natural box more. And the feedback I get from some of them is that that market's starting to disappear. Orange wine started to be like people were past it like a couple of years ago. That was it's still popular here in my bar. We buy in orange wine because we get asked for it. But orange, a lot of the importers in other countries are saying, well, that's falling by the wayside. And the wines that are presented in a more natural way, with the like the kooky labels designed by the winemakers' children and all that jazz, they're they're proving very difficult to sell. And I think maybe you know that's a sign that maybe it's to do with the the financial situation in the world as well, where people are being less uh adventurous in their tastes, they're drinking things that are more comfortable and more conservative, they're taking less risk with the money that they spend on their on their wine. So maybe natural wine isn't dead, but it certainly seems like the zeitgeist that Tillingham benefited from is definitely dissipated. So that that's my that's my take on it.

Susie Barrie MW 51:36

So do you think we are going to see an increasing kind of blurring of the lines between natural and conventional wine where we see that growth of organic farming, minimal intervention, regenerative, but not always hardcore natural?

Ben Walgate 51:50

Yeah, I know I think that's that would be a great thing, wouldn't it? It would be a great thing, and this isn't just in England, it's in other parts of the wine world as well, where you know the everything's branded up to the hilt and it's um kind of lacks a bit of soul sometimes. And so I'd like to see I'd like to see people embracing more of that soul and more of the sort of that regenerative farming uh diversifying the the style of wines they make as well, taking more risks. Because I think what has always rung true for me is or my experience has always been that the more of a story you have to tell about the wines, the easier they are to sell.

Susie Barrie MW 52:33

And how do you see the future for natural wine?

Ben Walgate 52:37

There's definitely a future for wines that are made with a very light touch in the cellar and um that are championing really, really good farming. And I think that is that's an integral part of what natural wine is. I think where natural wine can struggle is when the dogma gets ahead of the wine quality and where the wine suffers because of um a lack of sensitivity from the people who are making it. If they're saying we're gonna not intervene at all costs, and that means that the wine ends up being unpalatable to the consumer, that has no future.

Susie Barrie MW 53:09

Ben, thank you so much.

Ben Walgate 53:12

Thank you, Susie. It was a pleasure.

Peter Richards MW 53:18

I have to say, I 100% agree with Ben on this. Uh, the future should be about good farming, being sustainable, wine taking, you know, a lead on that, and a light touch in the cellar. But there's no place for dogma or unpalatable or faulty wine .

Susie Barrie MW 53:35

I like the notion of wine with soul. Wine with a story.

Peter Richards MW 53:38

That's giving it.

Susie Barrie MW 53:39

And yeah, sometimes it's about the people, sometimes it's about rescuing ancestral grape varieties, whatever. But sometimes to change the world, you have to be brave and fearless and stick to your guns.

Peter Richards MW 53:50

Fair enough, fair enough. I just think people should do what they believe, you know, do it as well as they possibly can, including intervening as a winemaker where necessary. As Ben said, not all interventions detract from wine quality, whereas some faults do, even at low levels. And then people shouldn't be sort of overly preachy or overly dogmatic. And that also includes the press, by the way.

Susie Barrie MW 54:11

I mean, interestingly what he was saying about English natural wine being a hard sell, especially now given the cost of living crisis and questioning whether the buzz had gone out of the natural wine market more generally. Um now we also spoke with winemaker Daniel Hamm of Offbeat in Wiltshire, who said he's using a bit more sulphur because, and I quote, 'consumer preferences have become more conservative, and tolerance for high levels of VA or mouse is lower now than during the wild pandemic days'. The wild pandemic days. He's mindful that his wines aren't cheap and he needs to deliver quality, even if they're low intervention. Meantime, if we accept this isn't just two polarised camps and is actually a spectrum, as both Rachel and Simon encouraged us to do, then this middle ground that Ben and Dan are exploring, perhaps natural adjacent or low intervention, does seem to have a lot to offer.

Peter Richards MW 55:07

Yeah, yeah, I think it's about horses for courses. You know, there will be people, producers and drinkers, who want hardcore natural wine and they won't compromise. That's okay. Meantime, I think this middle ground will flourish. Uh, and the overall result will be to improve standards, improve sustainability, hopefully, you know, make the wine world a better and more delicious place.

FINAL SUMMARY

Susie Barrie MW 55:27

So this has been long. Uh, we need to wrap things up. By way of closing summary, everyone agrees that natural wine is an imperfect term. But if you take natural wine as a set of aspirations rather than a strict dogma, it's got a lot going for it. Organic farming, low intervention winemaking, a welcoming democratic community, and a sense of fun.

Peter Richards MW 55:49

But the preaching and blind dogma have no place in the future of wine. Drinkers deserve palatable wine as a bare minimum. Nor is there a place for mudslinging. This is not the time for a vinous civil war. Wine has enough critics and headwinds as it is. Everyone needs to do their own thing and do it well. Wine needs all the friends it can get, whatever the category.

Susie Barrie MW 56:11

Natural wine started out as essentially a cheeky middle finger to the standardisation and pretentiousness and misguided practices of modern wine. It was timely. It champions wines with soul, wines with attitude, wine with something to say for itself, and there is absolutely a place for that in the wine world of today and the future. Wine can and should be a broad church.

Peter Richards MW 56:36

Meantime, it's intriguing to see the emergence of a new category, something of a hybrid in between conventional and natural, as typified by Walgate, among others. Will this perhaps be natural wine's greatest legacy? Encouraging big wine to clean up its act and spawning a new generation of post-modern fusion producers? Perhaps. But equally, you sense there will always be a place for people making beautiful, characterful wines with stories to tell, whatever category they belong to.

Susie Barrie MW 57:05

Thanks to our interviewees Rachel Signer, Simon Woolf, and Ben Walgate. Don't forget you can get 25% discounts on both Rachel's new book and Simon's excellent Substack by checking out our show notes. We'll also put links to the previous episodes we mentioned on there. Finally, thanks to you for listening. Until next time. Cheers!