Pays d'Oc Part 1 - Land of the Free

We're on the road again. This time, diving into Pays d'Oc IGP - we're talking scenic southern France, and a little-known but intriguing origin story involving California, Algeria, violence, desperation, stubborn visionaries...and victory rescued from the jaws of defeat. Oh, and 'Liberté!'

Helping us paint the picture are Jacques Gravegeal (an exclusive interview, rare for an English language show), Olivier Simonou and Gerard Bertrand. Fascinating people, all with a unique story to tell. 

From a standing start in 1987, Pays d'Oc IGP now sells around 21 bottles every second across 170+ countries. It's a stunning (and rare) vinous success story, and one that's transformed the fortunes not just of an entire region, but also a national treasure in the shape of French wine. 

In this programme, we get to grips with how it all came about, the challenges involved in making it happen, and the exciting recent developments for a category where innovation 'is in the DNA'. Thanks to Pays d'Oc IGP for sponsoring and giving us unique behind-the-scenes access.

Thanks for tuning in. We love to hear from you so please do get in touch! Send us a voice message via Speakpipe. Or you can find all details from this episode, including links, maps and photos, on our website: Show notes for Wine Blast S7 E31: Pays d'Oc Part 1 - Land of the Free

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Transcript

We're off on an adventure - to Pays d'Oc!

Susie Barrie MW 0:05

Hello and welcome to Wine Blast with me, Susie Barrie, and my husband and fellow Master of Wine, Peter Richards. We've had all sorts of adventures on the pod lately, and now we are embarking on another one, and you are coming with us!

Peter Richards MW 0:20

Imagine the scene. Dawn is breaking over the pine-covered hills and verdant vineyards of Mediterranean France. The moon, an elegant waning crescent, is the only feature in a deepening blue sky, the horizon a soft orange. But this dynamic landscape is neither still nor quiet. The buffeting wind is both seen and heard. White peaks litter the distant sea, while the birds are in full voice...

Susie Barrie MW 0:50

Welcome to Pay's d'Oc. It's a part of the world we've visited before on the podcast, but this is a new story we're telling, a different subject we're exploring. Here's a taster of what's coming up:

Gérard Bertrand 1:03

The good thing with Pays d'Oc is - it's freedom in the world of tradition. And Pays d'Oc is total freedom. You know, you feel like a painter with your pencil and with your colours, and you do what you want. You let your inspiration come through. It's fun.

Peter Richards MW 1:22

Gérard Bertrand there. Uh, we'll be hearing more from him in due course together with other key protagonists in this tale. And I think the first thing we should do is explain what our subject is and and how this is all going to work.

What is Pays d'Oc IGP?!

Susie Barrie MW 1:34

Absolutely. Um so this is a particularly tasty mini-series we have lined up for you. Uh, two programmes dedicated to Pays d'Oc IGP. So, what IS Pays d'Oc IGP?! Well, by way of brief initial summary, chances are as a wine drinker, you've come across it before, because 21 bottles of Pays d'Oc IGP wine are sold every second across 170 plus countries. It accounts for one of the largest vineyard areas in the world, producing seven to eight hundred million bottles every year, generating more than four billion euros in sales.

Peter Richards MW 2:15

Now, French wine nomenclature can be complicated because France is complicated, of course, gloriously so. Um, but bear with us as we explain. A lot of the most famous names we associate with French wine, like I don't know, Saint Emilion or Chateauneuf-du-Pape, or Champagne, are appellations, uh, PDOs or AOPs, Appellations d'Origine Protégées. If you want to use those names as a wine producer, you need to follow a pretty hefty rule book of what you can and can't do.

Susie Barrie MW 2:43

By contrast, the rules are more relaxed when it comes to IGPs or protected geographical indications. These designations still give some indication of provenance, but the areas are generally bigger, and there's much more freedom in terms of things like what grape varieties you can use or how you make your wine and the style of wine you can produce.

Peter Richards MW 3:06

Pays d'Oc IGP is by far the biggest IGP in French wine. The vineyard covers a swathe of Mediterranean France, from the Rhone River to the Spanish border, running from the Mediterranean shore across coastal plains into the hills. Uh, we'll pop up a map on the show notes. We've got it, one that shows us pretty well. This is the Languedoc Roussillon, whose overall vineyard covers 220,000 hectares. But of that, a whopping half is dedicated to making Pays d'Oc IGP wines: 110,000 hectares.

Susie Barrie MW 3:38

So again, just to clarify, because this it can be confusing for all of us, and let's take the example of a wine producer in the hills above Montpellier in the Terrasses du Larzac zone. Now that producer has a choice. If the vines are within the sanctioned area, the grapes could be put towards making a wine labelled Terrasses du Larzac. Now that's an appellation or AOP that must be made from a blend of at least three designated varieties, principally Grenache, Mourvedre, Syrah or Carignan. The wines must be over 12% alcohol, with vines planted at a minimum of 4,000 plants per hectare and yields no more than 45 hectolitres per hectare. Or the producer could decide that's a bit restrictive and do something completely different with some or all of their vineyard, in which case the Pays d'Oc IGP designation has proved a popular alternative.

Peter Richards MW 4:33

And that's because Pays d'Oc IGP rules are a bit more freewheeling. Producers can choose from 58 different grape varieties, including the likes of Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, Viognier, Merlot, Syrah, Pinot Noir, and Cabernet Sauvignon. They can make them as single varietal wines or as blends. They can make red, white, or rose from relatively generous yields, up to 90 hectolitres per hectare or 100 hectolitres per hectare for rose, although the current average is apparently around 65 to 70 hectolitres per hectare. They can blend cross-regionally. They can make natural or orange or lower alcohol wines, and they can choose from a range of packaging and formats from bag and box to pouches, cakes, and beyond. This is a wine category that truly espouses the French value of 'liberté'!

Susie Barrie MW 5:20

But it's not a complete free-for-all, is it? Production is monitored, and every single batch of wine is tasted and checked before being released to the market. That's quite something when you're talking about 800 million bottles per year. But this has been a central pillar of the Pays d'Oc IGP since its inception, the idea of delivering reliable quality. So a 5.5 million euro facility called the Espace Vinalia was built just outside Montpellier, featuring what's billed as the world's largest tasting room, and it can process up to 900 samples per week. Apparently, up to 20,000 samples are processed every year, and on average, around 4% are rejected.

Peter Richards MW 6:05

It's a suitably impressive facility. We can confirm, having had a nosy round while we were there. It's a proper operation. We actually got talking with one technician who said one of the wine faults they check for goes by the name of 'wet mop'. We're none the wiser about what it is... = It really was a wet mop. But we got the message. Anyway, we'll put photos on the website shownotes about that. But all of this from vineyard to shop shelf has one overriding aim: to give people names they recognise, affordable prices, and quality they can trust. Meantime, keeping a historic and proud winemaking community in business.

Susie Barrie MW 6:41

Now, this may all sound a bit dry and bloomin' obvious, um, yet behind this sleek, sizeable operation lies a fascinating story of impending doom and stubborn visionaries and radical social change and great vinous success. And it's a story that isn't very well known.

Peter Richards MW 7:00

So craving your indulgence, we're gonna tell it now. Uh across these two episodes, we're going to dive into the intriguing origin story and current reality behind Pays d'Oc IGP, with exclusive access to people who were in the room for vital events and decisions, both in the early days and more recently, with those who are setting the standard for the future. We need to thank Pays d'Oc IGP for sponsoring this mini-series and granting us this privileged access, though. As ever on Wine Blast, sponsorship guarantees airtime and not party line. So all thoughts and opinions are very much our own.

An intriguing origin story, starring Jacques Gravegeal

Susie Barrie MW 7:33

So let's start by travelling back to the mid-20th century, and we're going to illustrate the context by focusing on the Skalli family, French merchants who had emigrated to Algeria and established a thriving grain and wine business straddling North Africa and southern France. At the time, Languedoc had a huge vineyard, around 430,000 hectares, largely dedicated to Carignan, Aramon, and hybrid grapes. The Skalli family blended their richer Algerian wine with the lower strength Languedoc wines. Business was good.

Peter Richards MW 8:10

After Algerian independence in 1962, the Skalli family relocated to the Languedoc in 1964. Around a decade afterwards, Robert Skalli or Robert Skalli took over the family firm. But he made time to travel to California wine country to gain some insights from the nascent but impressive wine scene there, particularly from Robert Mondavi, a name that will crop up a few times in this story. This was in 1977, just after the famous Judgment of Paris, when Californian wines had bested the French greats in a seminal blind tasting, as per our recent episode.

Susie Barrie MW 8:48

Now Skalli returned to France infused by what he had witnessed in California, particularly the way the wines were marketed in clear, unfussy terms based on the names of great varieties like Cabernet or Chardonnay, as opposed to the myriad local appellations that were the common way to label wine in France. But he wasn't the only one to have found inspiration stateside. Someone else who'd had a similar epiphany was Jacques Gravegeal.

Peter Richards MW 9:16

Now, Jacques Gravegeal was a very different character to Robert Skalli. His family were wine producers, and he was coming up through the sharp-elbowed ranks of wine grower associations and local politics. To this day, he remains founding president of Pays d'Oc IGP, vice president of Inter Oc, and mayor of his local town Campagne. At the time, Gravageal says French wine was in a crisis. Coal mines were disappearing, railways were declining, consumption was slumping (from admittedly heroic levels). Many producers were regularly sending their wines to be distilled, which was not a long-term solution. Gravegeal terms it 'artificial life support on an IV drip rather than fulfilling the essential purpose of making drinkable wine.' Many producers were desperate, and civil unrest had led to deaths after troops were sent in to quell riots.

Susie Barrie MW 10:08

But there was a willingness post-World War II among both the French and European authorities to build Europe into a land of peace and prosperity. Agricultural investment was part of that, so the Chirac plan, launched under the then agriculture minister, incentivised wine growers to replace outdated vineyards with more market-friendly grapes, to switch essentially from quantity to quality.

Peter Richards MW 10:34

The big question was how to make all this work. French wine growers were desperate for a solution, but also mired in tradition and extremely reluctant to change. Over to Jacques Gravegeal.

Jacques Gravegeal 10:48

I went to the United States. You should know I belong to the Far West generation, as we used to say, rock music. That was my generation. So for the first time in my life, setting foot in California felt like entering a promised land. It was extraordinary. But I wasn't going there for the Wild West or to see cowboys. I went to see Californian viticulture, how it had developed and emancipated itself despite not having the same origins as ours. And there I found something that really appealed to me. Why? Because I discovered a land of innovation of the American system. The Americans, who had actually gone through a legal dispute with the European community at the WTO, were at that time producing wines called Champagne, Bordeaux, Burgundy, and so on. Europe and France especially, with a reputation no one can deny it had, and still has in certain respects, sued the United States, saying this was abnormal. Appellations of origin had to be protected. The INAO, the National Institute of Appellations of Origin, defended origin as sacred. It wasn't acceptable for California to produce Bordeaux or Champagne, so negotiations took place. And what did the Americans do? Clever as always, they said, fine, no problem, we'll stop using those names. But what they conveniently failed to mention was that they would keep the grape varieties. So they stopped making Bordeaux, Burgundy, and Champagne, but they continued making wine, Chardonnay, Merlot, Cabernet, Sauvignon, Riesling. And that wasn't forbidden under American law. That's what I discovered there. And then I thought, the entire wine economy of Napa Valley and Sonoma Valley, because they had already identified their territories very clearly to distinguish wines by place, resembled exactly what we were beginning to think about here, creating a regional van der Pay, which later became Pays d'Oc. What struck me was this, all Californian wines, without exception, were sold by grape variety. And I thought, but these are French grape varieties. So here I was, for the first time in California, discovering French grape varieties being sold in millions of litres to consumers all over the world. And succeeding. Why were they succeeding? Because Americans are Americans. To kill a fly, they'll use an elephant. They pour millions and millions of dollars into promoting Californian wines, but really what they're promoting is Californian Chardonnay, Californian Sauvignon, and so on. And I thought, by what right are we, France, the cradle of Europe, France, already having liberated these grape varieties through the Chirac plan in the 1970s, already having them in our own cellar, yet incapable of building something around them ourselves? That's when it exploded in my mind. I said to myself, I think I found an economic solution, and it will be through grape varieties. At the time, that was completely iconoclastic here. Completely. People only talked about terroir. It was forbidden to put grape varieties on bottles in appellation wines. And I arrived saying, We will defend geographical origin, yes, but we will also defend the grape variety with the same power the Californians and Americans were using.

Susie Barrie MW 14:12

There's an irony here, isn't there? I mean, in that the Californians very openly had taken their wine inspiration from Europe, the great France, particularly, as we heard in our Judgment of Paris episode. But Jacques had to take inspiration from California to relearn, as it were, how to evolve and adapt to the modern era.

Peter Richards MW 14:33

Yeah, but I think we underestimate how much of a seismic change this was for French wine at the time. You know, Jacques described it as iconoclastic. I think, I don't know, I think I think that understates it. Uh, to go against the fundamental concept of terroir of appellations was akin to wine heresy for the French at the time. I think it probably still is in some circles.

Susie Barrie MW 14:53

But what Jacques saw was that the two things could be complementary, you know. So back to our Terrasses du Larzac wine producer. You could still make appellation or terroir wine, but you could also then have part of your vineyard dedicated to making this newfangled varietal stuff, which consumers recognised and loved and clearly wanted.

Peter Richards MW 15:13

But that required a big mindset shift from French producers. Jacques describes the varietal approach as fundamentally an Anglo-Saxon concept. But he also saw that many of the markets of the future were Anglo-Saxon ones, the UK, Australia, the US, etc. And why did they like varietal wines?

Jacques Gravegeal 15:32

Un, la lisibilité des nouveaux consommateurs est facile. Because for new consumers, they're easy to understand. If I like white wine, that doesn't mean I like all white wines. But maybe I prefer Chardonnay to Viognier, or Sauvignon to Riesling. With grape varieties, I give the consumer a clear identifier. That's the key. The younger generations no longer learn wine through family traditions the way my generation did. They don't eat meals with their parents anymore. They build their tastes alone. And if, in a supermarket wine aisle, they cannot identify wines that match their preferences, they simply won't buy wine. Why are appellation wines declining? Because they sell only terroir. But within one terroir, there can be very different tastes. Whereas with Pays d'Oc varietal wines, I tell the consumer clearly, you buy Chardonnay because you prefer Chardonnay to Sauvignon. I'm telling you, it's Chardonnay. I'm giving consumers a choice. That's the advantage. Today, around 80% of world wine trade is based on varietal wines. Go to South Africa. They sell varietals. Go to Australia, varietals. The Californians started it. Varietals everywhere. Eastern Europe, varietals. And what are those varietals? French grape varieties. Some people call them international grape varieties. No. They are French grape varieties. Look around the world. What sells? Chardonnay. Sauvignon. French grapes. Doncerteva Cepage International. No, ce sont pas de Cepage International Sonic Francis.

Susie Barrie MW 17:15

Vive La France! Even if the pronunciation on the translation isn't always spot on. Sorry about that. So to recap, Southern French wine was in crisis. Structurally unfit for purpose, Jacques saw a solution. Varietal wines focusing on quality, not quantity. But he knew he would face considerable opposition, both from wine growers and politicians. He needed a plan and he needed allies.

Peter Richards MW 17:42

Yeah, now he was referred to one Robert Skalli at his HQ in Sete, a Port City. Now, this wasn't an obvious move. Skalli was a négociant, so a merchant who buys grapes and wines, creates brands, and sells them. Growers, like Jacques Gravegeal and those he represented, had been in violent dispute with the negociants for some time, symptomatic of the wider wine malaise and social unrest, sometimes with violent and fatal results. Jacques had called it 'practically a civil war.'

Susie Barrie MW 18:13

But Jacques overcame his initial reservations and he went to see Skalli...

Jacques Gravegeal 18:20

He received me and we immediately connected perfectly. He was the marketer, what I later called a market creator, though back then they were simply called wine merchants. I represented the production side, and he told me something important. Unlike the usual rhetoric of violence, protests, tanks emptied in the streets, and prefectures covered in graffiti, I had come to him with an economic project. He said, You've come to propose an economic vision, and I'm already working on one. He reached out his hand to me there in set, and we shook hands. And we said, We are going to open a new chapter in this region's wine history. That was the beginning. What I didn't yet know was that Robert Skalli had spent years training in enology with Robert Mondavi in Napa Valley. Skalli, born in Oran, came from that Mediterranean Italian world. And one thing Italians have that we French often don't is a very clear sense of identity and roots. Even Corsicans know exactly who they are and where they come from. Robert Skalli had trained in California, had bought an estate in Napa Valley in 1982, where he acquired 400 hectares and planted 250 of them exclusively with varietal wines, under the guidance of Robert Mondavi. Then he created Fortant de France in Sete, producing only varietal wines. He also introduced contracts to secure long-term supply for the export markets he had developed, since almost everything was exported at that time. France barely consumed varietal wines then. You have to remember the context. Most of his business was in Thailand, Hong Kong, and elsewhere in Asia. So Robert Skalli became the providential man I encountered. We learned to appreciate each other deeply. I used the word love deliberately. We truly came to love one another. We came from completely different worlds. He from a wealthy background, me from a peasant farming family. Yet we connected through complementary differences. That was extraordinary. Without this providential figure extending his hand to me and believing in the vision I carried, we could never have built what followed.

Peter Richards MW 20:32

So what was the result of this providential meeting between two key men? You guessed it, the Vin de Pays d'Oc category, which would later evolve into Pays d'Oc IGP. It was officially introduced in 1987. The name Pays d'Oc, Jacques explains, was actually a labelling term created by Skalli, who agreed to make it public for the common good. And the aim was simple: planting, then marketing varietal wines from Languedoc Roussillon, a concept that Skalli's Fortant de France brand exemplified to great success. Inspired by California, but delivered by the home of these mighty great varieties, France.

Susie Barrie MW 21:09

Ultimately, Jacques says, it was about keeping the local wine industry afloat. Growers quickly saw they could make a premium on their grapes by embracing the Pays d'Oc category. So the co-ops started adopting it. Production boomed, the market lapped it up, and 200,000 hectares were replanted with 185,000 hectares of quality grapes through the Chirac Plan and European support. The category was on its way to becoming France's leading IGP, making sixty-two percent of all French IGP wine and some six million hectolitres or six hundred million litres annually.

Peter Richards MW 21:49

I asked Jacques if he ever expected the Pays d'Oc IGP category to become as successful as it is today, forty years on.

Jacques Gravegeal 22:00

Honesty? No. When you're at the bottom of the hole, and we were at the bottom of the hole in this region, the uprising in 1976 had led to two deaths. We found ourselves in a situation where, beyond simply being difficult, many people believed there was no plausible solution. For me, there were two providential men. First, Jacques Chirac, who launched the Chirac Plan. He said, uproot the vines, replant quality grape varieties, create producer groups. The wine trade didn't want to go in that direction, so he said, I'll support the producer groups for the sole purpose of making it happen. Then a few years later, around 1984, 85, I found myself working with Robert Skalli, the second providential man. Through his intellectual vision and the economic structure of the Skalli Company, he managed to provide an answer to the riddle we had been unable to solve. How to make this region prosperous through quality wines that would complement the appellation system. Those two things show that, in the end, it comes down to people. You should never lose sight of that. You should never despair. I hope one day we'll again find another providential man. Maybe we will. So at that time, we were more focused on trying to succeed and putting everything in place to build that success than on imagining what it might become one day. So no, never in a million years. If you had asked me back then, do you think one day you'll produce six million hectolitres? I would have said, Are you crazy? Never in my life. At the beginning, we were just trying to see what we could do. You know how in supermarkets they place chewing gum by the checkout for children? Well, today, Pays d'Oc has become that unavoidable product. We became the world's leading IGP. No one else in the world has an IGP label producing six million hectolitres. We became France's leading IGP. Pays d'Oc represents 62% of all French IGP wines.

Susie Barrie MW 24:04

So it's an amazing success story involving some charismatic, colourful characters, and a backdrop of desperate times and success rescued from the jaws of defeat. Interestingly, while Pays d'Oc IGP was a big hit initially on export markets, now the French market is also embracing it. Sales are now 60% domestic and 40% export. A big change from the early days.

Peter Richards MW 24:30

Yeah, so French consumers getting their heads around it as well as French producers using it. Yeah, he did. He described it as another crisis. But what he proposed was interesting. Again, he came back to innovation being at the heart of Pays d'Oc IGP, the ability to be nimble and adapt. So he strongly supports, for example, sparkling wine being allowed within Pays d'Oc IGP, which it isn't currently. He said rosé and whites should be a major focus. This region was historically, of course, more known for its reds, but that category is in steep decline in the market. He also advocated for de-alcoholised wine, admitting he changed his mind on that.

Susie Barrie MW 25:19

That's interesting because there's definitely a very entrenched opposition in France to zero alcohol wine, with people saying it's not wine, it's an abomination, shouldn't be allowed, you know, that kind of thing.

Peter Richards MW 25:31

Jacques said the quality is much better now than it was. He described the quality of the better zero alcohol wines now as 'astonishing'. He said they've commissioned studies indicating the market for zero alcohol wines by 2030 could be 20 to 23 million hectolitres, so around 10% of current consumption, which is sizeable, right? He said, 'is it ethical or traditional? No.' But he added, if it boosts sales significantly and keeps vines in the ground and wine growers in a profession, then he, and I quote, 'refuses to dismiss it'. He also advocated for measured irrigation and also PIWIs or disease-resistant varieties.

Susie Barrie MW 26:07

So these are thought-provoking topics we'll be returning to over the course of this mini-series. In the meantime, a pause.

MID-EPISODE RECAP

Susie Barrie MW 26:15

To recap so far, Pays d'Oc IGP was born out of a crisis in French wine. It was inspired by California, pioneered by two key protagonists, grower Jacques Gravegeal and merchant Robert Skalli. It was a bold, iconoclastic move that pitted traditionalists against modernists at a crunch time in global wine evolution. Against all the odds, Pays d'Oc IGP thrived, becoming a vinous success story like a few others.

Olivier Simonou interview

Peter Richards MW 26:44

So now we're going to move on and explore what that has meant since talking to key players within the Pays d'Oc IGP category. First up is Olivier Simonou, a very important figure in French wine as president of Inter Oc and general director of Castel Béziers, Castel being France's largest wine group and the biggest producer of Pays d'Oc IGP wines. Castel makes 900,000 hectolitres of Pays d'Oc IGP per year. Their Roche Mazet brand sells 60 million bottles, mostly well-known varieties like Cabernet, Merlot, Chardonnay, and Sauvignon. A fair chunk of their sales are bag in box, interestingly.

Susie Barrie MW 27:20

Olivier calls the creation of Pays d'Oc IGP 'a genius idea' because it brought growers and merchants together to develop a business based around market demand, quality over quantity, and continual improvement. Put simply, consumers understood grape varieties and Pays d'Oc IGP could give that to them consistently and affordably.

Peter Richards MW 27:42

I asked Olivier how the Pays d'Oc IGP category has evolved over time:

Olivier Simonou 27:46

I think in quality, first. For the Reds, the reds were uh good quality at the very beginning, thanks to the collaboration between wine merchant and producer. But for the the the white and rosé, uh also the technology in um improved to elaborate the wine, and all these um evolution have also given to Pays d'Oc some uh um ambitions uh like to be compared to Provence. That was uh wine already uh well known compared to to Pays d'Oc. But and and step by step, Pays d'Oc in Rosé, for example, became the biggest vineyard in uh in Rose compared to the King Provence or uh whatever. Nothing is impossible with Pays d'Oc!

Peter Richards MW 28:41

That's a nice way of seeing it. Going just going back historically, then you said that um between Jacques Gravegeal and Robert Skalli creating this new category, Pays d'Oc, um, was a genius idea. But uh as far as I understand, it did take a while for people to embrace it. How has that aspect of the whole thing changed over time?

Olivier Simonou 29:00

I think people had no choice to survive. Then they they follow the people and they were very charismatic. Jacques is very charismatic, and um Robert Skalli is uh um, let's say an industrial man and uh very uh famous for that. They are leaders and uh people follow follow them and they trust on them. And um also the big strengths of this concept was that for the export market uh there was no need to explain what is varietal or um you we talk about Pays d'Oc in regards to innovation.

Peter Richards MW 29:38

What other w what innovations would you flag up as being important within the category of Pays d'Oc right now?

Olivier Simonou 29:45

Innovation has always been in the um DNA of Pays d'Oc. At the very beginning, varietal was an innovation in here, not on in other country, but in here. And since the very beginning, it never stops. You have the the the orange wine, for example. Pays d'Oc said yes, we open to orange wine. Now, you have the the light uh red wines uh as well. You have also the the low alcohol or no alcohol which is uh now on on the in talk, and uh we will be able to do that, I suppose, uh very very soon. And as soon as you have innovation somewhere about wine, Payd d'Oc is interested in. But the important thing is that Pays d'Oc has a control on every litre put on the market. Then even if you innovate or you take risk or whatever, uh you have this control which avoid any bad wine going on onto the market, and that will be the same, I suppose, for the low alcohol and no alcohol. If the quality is not high enough uh compared to the Payd d'Oc standards, and then they won't be delivered to to to the market, but innovation but control as well.

Peter Richards MW 31:17

How how how would you define or sum up Pays d'Oc IGP these days?

Olivier Simonou 31:23

Quality, volumes, uh innovation, uh brave, and uh good rate quality price, yeah. Best value for money.

Peter Richards MW 31:34

There you go. So Pays d'Oc has made a name for delivering good value wines, exactly. Um but that doesn't necessarily mean cheap wines, does it?

Olivier Simonou 31:45

Let's say you have cheaper wine than Pays d'Oc that exists, uh but the quality is uh quite uh poor. At that price, that mean over these uh first price wine you can find Pays d'Oc. And um, I think that's the best rate quality price you can find on the market, and the quality is very regular as well, thanks to this control we talk about. Uh it's a very accessible category, uh, but also you can find high-quality product in uh in Payd d'Oc and a bit more expensive, and people can find bottles at 20, 30, or 40 euro. Uh, but that's a different way of conducting the of leading the vineyard or or elaborating the wines and and so on. Then you can answer to different needs thanks to Pays d'Oc.

Susie Barrie MW 32:41

So, like Jacques, Olivier emphasises how innovation is central to Pays d'Oc IGP. And he cites orange wine, lighter reds, which we'll come back to, and also zero alcohol wine. Now, the latter is a talking point because in the current Pays d'Oc IGP rules, wines can be naturally lower alcohol. The minimum level is 9% ABV, but de-alcoholised wine is not currently allowed. But Olivier was very clear that they would soon be allowed into the Payd d'Oc IGP rule book. So perhaps a bit of a scoop then.

Peter Richards MW 33:15

Yeah, yeah, I got that same feeling from Jacques too when I talked to him. And I, to be honest, I think that's a smart move. You know, whatever the purists say, wine lovers want to drink wine. Uh so Castel has invested in spinning cone technology. And Olivier also said the quality has improved markedly lately. And better to give consumers the option to buy low or zero alcohol wine rather than have to defect a beer or soft drinks or whatever. You know, Olivier reckons the low alcohol wine segment could grow to be 10 to 15% of the market, which is a big chunk. And hopefully quality will improve over time too.

Susie Barrie MW 33:46

And Olivier also mentioned the controls, you know, meaning the tasting checks that happen to every batch of Pays d'Oc IGP wine. And that goes hand in hand with the innovation because it means you can try new things out. But if it's not good enough, that validation process will weed out the stuff that hasn't worked. So, as Olivier says, 'nothing is impossible with Pays d'Oc.' I did love that turn of phrase. Uh, but he added that wine producers will need to fight to survive given the challenges of the current era.

Gérard Bertrand interview

Peter Richards MW 34:18

Which is a very apposite note on which to bring in our next guest, uh Gerard Bertrand, uh, a distinguished former rugby player. Gerard is now head of a vibrant, eponymous wine and I guess he'd add, lifestyle business selling into 175 countries, but based out of Chateau L'Hospitalet near Narbonne, which has a five-star hotel, spa, restaurant, and a very popular annual jazz festival. Apparently, Sting is performing this year. Wow, I see. There we go.

Susie Barrie MW 34:45

Gerard describes himself as a winemaker and party maker and says his work is more like a mission than a profession. His winemaking family, originally based out of Villemajou in Corbières, was a big influence on him. But so was Robert Mondavi, that name again. After Gerard spent time in California in 1988, invited by Robert Skalli, and he was inspired by the way Mondavi's business vision went beyond wine to creating destinations and experiences linking wine with food and culture, art and music. And Gerard drew deeply from that well, in the same way that Jacques Gravegeal and Robert Skalli had done before him.

Peter Richards MW 35:29

Gerard makes many wines and does many things, but he's been a long-term supporter of the Pays d'Oc IGP category. He says it has enabled producers to compete at an international level and promote the region's unique lifestyle. And also, as we'll hear, to innovate in intriguing ways. One of Gérard's key values is his adherence to biodynamic viticulture. So I asked him why biodynamics is important to him and his wines.

Gérard Bertrand 35:56

Biodynamic is more than a cultural method for me, it's a philosophy of life. You know, myself, uh I use homeopathic pills for 40 years, and for me, uh biodynamic is like homeopathic by the plant for the plant. And when we started in 2002, it was like a revelation because I have seen the changes in the vineyard in the cellar with much more acidity, better pH, better wine, better balance. And also when you stop to use chemical products and when you start to introduce natural ingredients, you know it's uh you protect biodiversity, and uh it was a game changer in my life. I like to share this experience with my team working in the vineyard, and we have 150 people dedicated for these programs. You know, we started with uh two hectares, and now we have 1,000 hectares turned to biodynamic, and we do it for 25 years, and we started before biodynamic became popular. Yes, we are the number one in the world, and uh we tried we continue to to share our practices and also to uh to dedicate our time for that in a vineyard, yeah.

Peter Richards MW 37:15

And as far as I understand, you came to homeopathy uh through because you had uh an illness or an injury? Did it remind me?

Gérard Bertrand 37:23

Yeah, you know, when I turned 22, I had a liver issue, and uh I couldn't drink wine anymore. You know, I think for for a winemaker it's a big problem, and for a Frenchman it's a tragedy, yes. And I experiment some medicines uh with some people and it doesn't work, and one of my friends, Jean-Claude Berrouet, who has been the technical director of Petrus for 44 Vintages, advised me to visit an homeopathic doctor, and I made it. And he explained to me the reason why I had I had a liver issue and he fixed it with homeopathic pills. And in six months I became another person, and he was a game changer in my life, and I understood the potential, the strength of uh natural method.

Peter Richards MW 38:12

Now turning to the wine, how do you view the the IGP Pays d'Oc category?

Gérard Bertrand 38:18

Oh, you know, I remember very well this time because uh my father was very close to Robert Skalli. I was invited by Robert SKalli to spend two weeks in Napa Valley, and I get lucky enough to meet Robert Mondavi. And I spent two hours with Robert, and he explained to me his vision for the wine industry. And uh it was just the beginning of the great of the variteal in the world of wine. And you remember the Judgment of Paris, we celebrate this year 50 years, and it was just uh 11 years after that. And uh for people understanding what is the difference between a Chardonnay and a Cabernet and a Merlot, introducing the taste profile of wine has been a game changer for the region. And we start to introduce uh grape varieties and we start to promote uh a destination with uh Pays d'Oc. You know, I I came back home, I was 23 years old, and I was focused on my rugby career, and I started to in the wine industry because my father passed away and I took over the family estate, and I said, Okay, now I know what I want to do, because I was impressed by what he has achieved in California, like creating a destination, number one, and number two, making the link between the wine, the culture of the region, and also art and music. And I came here and I said, Oh, this is my vision for this region. I want to promote this lifestyle, and I would like to find a place like now at Chateau Hospitalet to create uh more than an experience to make people happy, making the link between uh you know the wine, the gastronomy with the chef. Uh we create a jazz festival, and we also promote the culture of the region. And this is really what is important for me because now uh it's not only a beverage, wine is a cultural product, and you need to share with people your passion and also to try to explain your legacy in the world of wine. Let's talk about innovation.

Peter Richards MW 40:39

Uh, Pays d'Oc IGP has allowed producers to innovate uh within a certain framework. How important is that capacity to innovate?

Gérard Bertrand 40:48

For us as a company at Gérard Bertrand, we like to innovate. You know, we were the first to really promote uh uh natural and non-added sulfite wines. Uh we launched a range called Trouble, very successful with Market Spencer now, uh, which is a cloudy wine with no filtration. I mean, we like to create new trends. We we have a range called SoVive, which is low alcohol. I mean, I think this is also interesting as a company to explore nutrients and to really uh be uh a strength of proposal for people to have fun also with a glass of wine because I think the success also of Pays d'Oc is based on that. It's fun.

Peter Richards MW 41:42

And talk to us about uh low sulfite natural wines. Is that something that's increasing? Is that a trend that you see being particularly hot?

Gérard Bertrand 41:49

When we started in 2011, it was not a trend. And Pays d'Oc gave us an opportunity to make some uh some natural wine. We have a range called Naturae, and this range became the number one uh natural uh brand in the world. Very successful because it's a taste, because we control also, as my father said, 1001 detail during from uh harvesting to bottling in order to be careful to avoid any oxidation. And the wine are terrific, and uh it's interesting because it really reveals the taste of the grapes, because you don't use any uh sulfur. And of course, it's more challenging for white and rose than uh than red, because with red you have the quality of the tannin which protects against oxidation. But even with white and rose, we we have uh managed carefully that innovation in order to deliver a good taste with uh consistency and potential of aging.

Peter Richards MW 43:03

What's your take on the revival of ancestral or historic grape varieties now in the region?

Gérard Bertrand 43:10

We are still a defender of uh Carignan. Carignan, especially for the appellations like Corbieres Boutenac or La Liviniere, are very interesting. But you know these grapes variety now are very interesting, also because they are between 50 to 100 years old, and when you have very old vineyards, you really promote the sense of place. And this is also interesting to really reinforce the category of uh super premium to ultra premium wines for this region.

Peter Richards MW 43:55

Let's talk about price then. Obviously, Pays d'Oc IGP has built its success around good value wines, but that doesn't necessarily just mean cheap wines, does it?

Gérard Bertrand 44:04

No, no, no. For us with Cigalus Cstate. Sigalus is uh is our flagship of uh Pays d'Oc, and this is not a great variety, this is blend. We have a blend of white and a blend of red, and we have three grapes for white, Chardonnay, Sauvignon, Viognier, and eight grapes for red, with Cab Sauvignon, Cab Franc, Merlot, Syrah, Grenache, Carignan, Mourvedre, and Caladoc. I mean, this is a combination between local grapes and international grapes, and we like to play with this. The good thing with Pays d'Oc is - it's freedom in the world of tradition. Yeah. Because the appellations, you have many rules, you cannot change it, and Pays d'Oc is a total freedom. You know, you feel like a painter with your pencil and with your colours, and you do what you want. You let your inspiration come through.

Peter Richards MW 45:05

Let's talk about the lifestyle. How important is wine tourism?

Gérard Bertrand 45:09

Wine tourism uh it's more and more important because we south of France, we are destination, and people can travel with a compass or with a corpse crew, visiting different estates, visiting different castles and abbeys, spending time on the beach clubs, or also visiting the countryside. I mean in this region where we have Pays d'Oc as the most important, it's really fun to try to capture the secrets of this amusing territory.

Peter Richards MW 45:55

How important is rosé in in the current context and to what you're doing?

Gérard Bertrand 45:58

Uh Rosé was a game changer also in the region because people underestimate the potential of the region. We produce two times more rose than Provence in terms of volume in this region between Pays D'oc and Languedoc. Of course, the chance of this region is Grenache, because the best grape for rose is Grenache, and then we do some blend with Cinsault and some Syrah. And we really promote Rose like a lifestyle product. And in France, 35% of the produ uh consumption of wine is based on rose. And what's happened also in America, in the UK, in uh Germany, in Canada with rose, it's one of the best trends I have seen over the last 15 years.

Peter Richards MW 47:00

How do you see the future of IGP Pays d'Oc?

Gérard Bertrand 47:04

You know, time is challenging for everyone. I remain very optimistic for two reasons. Number one, it's too late to be pessimistic, and number two, it's a paradigm shift, and because we have at Pays d'Oc 58 grape varieties, and because people they just want new taste, new trends, we have the chance to be capable to create much more innovation than nobody else in the world.

Susie Barrie MW 47:39

We come back to the importance of innovation for wine's longer-term future, natural wines, lower alcohol wines, the importance of rose, quirky blends of local and international varieties. I mean, Pays d'Oc IGP allows producers to do all these things and more. And wine producers need to be nimble and adaptable now more than ever.

Peter Richards MW 47:59

And also the importance of wine tourism. Um, we're going to come back to this in the next episode, but this is a beautiful part of the world, so it's not too hard to convince people to visit and have a great time, especially at Chateau L'Hospitalet, which we can confirm is a very cool place. Oh my goodness. Go, go, people, go. That gives them uh a great opportunity to get people tasting the wines, appreciating the culture and landscape and people, and you know, really buying into the wines and the lifestyle. Jacques Gravegeal was also bullish about wine tourism, saying it, and I quote, 'will very likely be part of the answer to today's economic problems.'

Susie Barrie MW 48:31

I love Gerard's phrase about how people travel with a compass or a corkscrew. I know which we prefer to do. But also his emphasis on fun, you know, how the wines should be fun, but also everything around them too. And that's really important.

CLOSING SUMMARY

Peter Richards MW 48:47

Always, always. Right. This has been a long episode, so we should wrap things up here. By way of closing summary, 50 years ago, the Languedoc Roussillon was facing an existential wine crisis. An entire way of life across a vast region was in danger of becoming obsolete. But a few bold souls inspired by the new wave Californian wine scene saw a solution: planting familiar grape varieties and selling them at a fair price to a receptive international market. This was Pays d'Oc. At the beginning, they faced entrenched opposition because this went against almost everything the French wine establishment held dear, particularly its cherished notion of terroir. But once the wine started proving popular and growers saw how Pays d'Oc IGP wines could work alongside traditional appellation wines, things moved fast. Nowadays, the category has become a veritable vinous success story, selling 21 bottles every second around the world. And the evolution doesn't end there.

Susie Barrie MW 49:46

No, indeed. As we've heard, Pays d'Oc IGP continues to innovate, which is more necessary now than ever, given the many challenges facing the modern wine industry. And we'll be hearing more about these exciting, sometimes groundbreaking developments in the next and concluding episode of this mini-series. So don't miss that one.

Peter Richards MW 50:04

Thanks to our interviewees Jacques Gravegeal, Olivier Simonou, and Gérard Bertrand. And thanks to Pays d'Oc IGP for sponsoring this miniseries. Thanks also to you for listening. We'll leave you with the evocative sound of bottles of Pays d'Oc IGP racing off the production line at Castel. Until next time. Cheers!