Pays d'Oc Part 2 - Future Proofing

Pays d'Oc wine was created in response to a French wine crisis in the mid-20th century - fast forward half a century and another crisis is facing the world of wine. 

So can the innovative, forward-thinking, 'iconoclastic' spirit that's at the heart of the Pays d'Oc category help not only French wine but also the wider wine world?!

That's what we're exploring in this second and concluding part of our Pays d'Oc mini-series, hearing from leading local producers like Maison Le Breton, Domaine Gayda, Ricardelle de Lautrec and Domaine de Sauzet. 

We're talking things like agroforestry, ancestral varieties, light-weighting, chillable reds, PIWIs, wine tourism, funky blends, lower alcohol wine - and the importance of fun. We even meet a handsome rooster along the way...

Thanks to Pays d'Oc IGP for sponsoring this mini-series and thanks to you for tuning in! We love to hear from you so please do get in touch! Send us a voice message via Speakpipe. Or you can find all details from this episode, including links, wine recommendations and photos, on our website: Show notes for Wine Blast S7 E32: Pays d'Oc Part 2 - Future Proofing

To support the show, enjoy subscriber-only bonus content and discount benefits, access our full archive and get every episode before it goes on free release, subscribe to Wine Blast PLUS at wineblast.co.uk

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Transcript

We're going FREE RANGE

Susie Barrie MW 0:03

Hello, this is your wake-up call, because you're listening to Wine Blast! And you find us immersed in Pays d'Oc, an historic wine heartland that's been revolutionised over the last 40 years and is now a hotbed of innovation and free thinking. So our kind of place!

Peter Richards MW 0:21

Yes, welcome to Wine Blast, and welcome back to Mediterranean France. We've gone free range! We've been touring the vineyards, making friends with all kinds of people and wildlife in is scenic countryside. Not least with this very handsome rooster who was keen to join our tour party...

Our Pays d'Oc IGP mini-series so far

Susie Barrie MW 0:43

So this is the second and concluding instalment in our Pays d'Oc IGP mini-series. In the first part, we heard the little known but intriguing origin story in which Longuedoc Roussillon wine was rescued from desperate times by a handful of leaders, inspired by California, no less. They focused on key grape varieties rather than local regional appellations to help sell the wines and make the vineyard fit for purpose.

Peter Richards MW 1:12

Now this was a bold, iconoclastic, some might say heretical move for French wine at the time, fiercely wedded as it was to its cherished notion of terroir. The traditional French wine establishment was vehemently opposed. But against all the odds, the likes of grower Jacques Gravegeal and merchant Robert Skalli, backed up by political heavyweights like Jacques Chirac, proved it could work, and that changed everything.

Susie Barrie MW 1:37

Van de Pays d'Oc as it was, Pays d'Oc IGP as it now is, was introduced in 1987. Roughly 40 years on, it's become a rare wine success story. After starting from scratch, Pays d'Oc IGP production is now around 700 to 800 million bottles per year, generating over 4 billion euros in revenue. It's sourced from one of the largest vineyards in the world, 110,000 hectares, half the total Languedoc Roussillon surface. Almost every wine lover will have come across it at some stage because 21 bottles of Pays d'Oc IGP are sold every second across 170 plus countries, often at pretty affordable prices.

What makes Pays d'Oc IGP interesting and relevant today

Peter Richards MW 2:24

So what began as an innovation has become an institution. But what makes Pays d'Oc IGP relevant and interesting today?! And what we'll be exploring in this episode, is how it continues to innovate and challenge the status quo in exciting and sometimes eye-opening ways. These are challenging times for wine producers the world over. What with declining consumption, climate change, anti-alcohol sentiment, the cost of living crisis. But can Pays d'Oc IGP producers use their free thinking approach to help wine fight back?!

Susie Barrie MW 2:56

And that's what we're getting into in this episode. So here's a taster of what's coming up:

Morgane Le Breton 3:01

It's really new, so people are trying to put it in a box. Yeah, it really is a guilty pleasure. That's why I think it's gonna have a much wider impact than rosé. I like to say to turn every small moment into a celebration, because that's what it is.

Tim Ford 3:14

Chillable reds: the first, the golden rule is it's gotta be non-tannic, otherwise it tastes like cold tea. It is a trend and we love it.

Peter Richards MW 3:22

Morgane Le Breton and Tim Ford there. We'll be hearing more from them as well as other key voices in due course. We should thank Pays d'Oc IGP for sponsoring this mini-series and giving us access to these producers and their wines. We'll also be posting some of our personal recommendations on our website show notes, so do check those out.

Susie Barrie MW 3:41

Okay, so let's start with a quick word on grape varieties. As we've said, this concept was fundamental to Pays d'Oc right from the start, producing and marketing varietal names that would be familiar to people. These days, four grapes account for more than half of total Pays d'Oc IGP production. Those are Merlot, Chardonnay, Cabernet Sauvignon, and Sauvignon Blanc, and 90% of Pays d'Oc IGP wine is single variety rather than a blend. So, familiar names, popular grapes, French grapes, as Jacques Gravegeal stressed in part one, grown in Mediterranean France and burnished with that rose-tinted French lifestyle charm. You can see the appeal.

Peter Richards MW 4:25

What's interesting talking to producers now, though, is the appetite for adventure on the grape variety front. People we spoke to are planting things like Syrah, Chenin Blanc, Pinot Noir, Caladoc, Rolle or Vermentino, Albarinño, Assyrtiko, Picpoul, and Clairette. Some of these are only allowed on an experimental basis. There's also a revival of ancestral or historic grape varieties from the region, things like Grenache Gris, Cinsault, Carignan, and Bourboulenc. In other words, the plot is definitely thickening.

Susie Barrie MW 4:54

Now some of these moves are in response to market demand, but much of this is about future proofing. Producers trying to anticipate the trends of the future at the same time as adapting to climate change. So, for example, a major trend noticeable on the ground is a shift towards white and rose wine. Red wine used to account for more than half of Pays d'Oc IGP production. These days it's around 40% and declining. That reflects falling red wine consumption in the market and also the changing climate.

Ricardelle de Lautrec interview (Lolie Solves)

Susie Barrie MW 5:27Peter Richards MW 5:27

Although chillable reds may shake that up a bit. They may indeed. As we'll discover shortly. But let's bring in the first of our producers to hear how they're working with different varieties and wine styles to future proof their business. First up, Ricardelle de Lautrec, a thoroughly down-to-earth operation located near Coursan, between Narbonne and Béziers, with historic family connections to the -Toulouse Lautrec family, incidentally. It was their fine rooster, we heard at the start of the episode.

Susie Barrie MW 5:54

Ricardelle de Lautrec have been organic since 1999 and biodynamic since 2022. They work with 13 varieties, including the likes of Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Caladoc, Syrah and Viognier. And they make characterful, rewarding wines that are often exceptionally good value for money. And they're not afraid to experiment either, making many different styles, including natural and orange wines.

Peter Richards MW 6:21

These guys have many talents, but fluent English is not prime among them, understandably. So it was very kind of them to want to chat. And this is a short snippet. But I asked Lolie Solves what grapes are important for them and why.

Lolie Solves 6:35

We do a lot of different things with the Chardonnay, for example, the orange wine. A wine of maceration, but we try to do a fresh orange wine with a little maceration, like seven days, to have a wine very light and it's good for an initiation to the orange wine.

Peter Richards MW 6:59

So that's lovely. So it's like a it's making orange wine accessible for people. It's an invitation to try the style. Is it successful? Do people like this style?

Lolie Solves 7:14

Yeah, um, we all the time uh look um after the tendence of the market. So for example, in I think it's uh like uh five years ago, we look on the market in uh Canada and USA, and uh the orange wine was in um growing up uh market, so we say, why not? Why not? And uh orange wine of Pays d'Oc and of our region, so it was nice and it works good, so we are very happy with that.

Peter Richards MW 7:49

Yeah. And uh you know, you also make natural wine. How does that work? Does it work well for you guys here?

Lolie Solves 7:56

Yeah, uh, we do uh natural wine since uh 10 years, so it's difficult to do a natural wine because sometimes it's going on the wrong side and you can do nothing, nothing. And so it's dangerous for the economic of the of our vineyard, but it's nice because when it's good, it's aromatic, it's um it's uh without sulfur, it's handpicking, it's uh more for the environment and for the consumer. Um the natural ones are more fruity, more more aromatic, more uh expressive. If if we can do all in natural wine, we did, but we don't because it's too much um risk for us. So we do uh traditional syrah, and we do also the natural syrah. And for example, I like to um to have a testing with someone and and say, test this one, uh try this one, it's uh Syrah 100%, and try this one, natural Syrah. And you can be the different, you can you can feel the difference, and the people are amazing, it's amazing all the time. They said, Wow, it's really different. So it's the Pays d'Oc um give to us a present to we can do what we want with uh our single grapes, and it's very interesting.

Susie Barrie MW 9:31

We had such a fun visit, didn't we, at Ricardelle De Lautrec?! I mean, do you remember that rusty old trailer with the rickety chairs towed by a tractor? And that was our luxury visitor transport. Um we did have possibly the best charcuterie platter I've ever had, you know, three tables long to taste alongside the wines. Um but most of all, we tasted a succession of really engaging, unpretentious wines that were amazing value for money.

Peter Richards MW 9:58

Yeah, a great discovery. The kind of discovery you want to make in Pays d'Oc. Absolutely delicious natural wines and orange wines, but also successful classical stuff like Cabernet Sauvignon, Pinot Noir. And and I get what Lolie means when she says they'd like to do everything natural, but it's a bit of a risk. Uh if things do go wrong with a natural cuvee, it can be hard to save. Uh, or then you've got concerns like stability over time in bottle and when shipping. So, you know, it's pragmatic not to put all their eggs in one basket.

Susie Barrie MW 10:25

Yeah, yeah. And and doing biodynamic natural wines because they're not only good for customers, but also employees and the environment. Um, they've got cool labels too, haven't they? So clearly a producer with plenty of tradition, but also looking to innovate and engage modern wine drinkers. Um they're also big on rosé, incidentally, something we touched on in the previous episode, because Pays d'Oc IGP is one of the largest rosé producers in the French wine category, making more than 200 million bottles per year.

Peter Richards MW 10:57

Good stats, good stat. And just to pick up on the stats angle, you've started uh this time looking at organic cultivation. I'm never one to be outstatted.

Susie Barrie MW 11:07

You're never gonna be outstatted, are you? No, I think that's what I've done.

Peter Richards MW 11:09

Pays d'Oc is also the largest IGP producer of organic wine in France, making around 83 million bottles per year, which is roughly 12% of total Pays d'Oc IGP production, partly because it's, you know, it's a sunny, windy place, so it's naturally well suited to organics. But also, I think because producers are clearly keen to adopt a kind of sustainable approach.

Maison Le Breton interview (Morgane Le Breton)

Peter Richards MW 11:29Susie Barrie MW 11:29

Which is an excellent segue to our next interviewee. Morgane Le Breton of Maison le Breton, which is based between Montpellier and Nîmes, a company that prides itself on making what it calls Everyday Grand Crus, which Morgane explained were affordable but delicious wines, ideal for something like a Thursday pizza night.

Peter Richards MW 11:50

Oh, sounds great, sounds great. But uh but Maison le Breton isn't just focused on the wine, as we'll discover. They're a proud B Corp company with a strong emphasis on continual improvement and a particular focus on sustainability. Uh, Morgane is a thoughtful, dynamic new generation leader who emphasizes the importance of good values in the company as much as good value in the wines. Uh, I asked her to give us some examples of this approach.

Morgane Le Breton 12:16

Well, we realized uh a few years ago that uh 40% of our carbon footprint is just the glass bottle. So we started by reducing the weight of the glass bottle, which was so easy because we just needed to purchase a bottle that was lighter. And so, you know, it costed us less money because it's uh it's a cheaper bottle, and it was much better for the team working uh and holding the boxes every day. So lowering the weight of the glass bottle is a win-win situation on all three pillars of sustainable development, environment, economic, and social. It's not the case all the time, uh, but it's very good to have something positive like this. Also, because the customer actually doesn't realize it. Um, even though there's a saying that the heavier the bottle, the better the wine. I do say today to my customers, yes, the bottle weight is very, very important. You are right to weight it, because the lighter, then the better footprint, and the the better the winemaker is, because it it means that uh he or she focuses on everything that's around the bottle and not just the wine itself.

Peter Richards MW 13:27

So you would say the lighter the bottle, the better the wine.

Morgane Le Breton 13:30

Of course.

Peter Richards MW 13:31

Which is an interesting one, isn't it? I mean, uh what are the what have been the challenges of lighter weighting your bottles?

Morgane Le Breton 13:37

Actually, there's not much uh except this idea of uh image of the wine. Uh we've had this because following this uh bottle weight, we've had uh the topic of the capsule, you know, this uh plastic aluminum um thing on top of the bottle. It was about five years ago we we wanted to to remove it because it's a waste that has no purpose in uh on the packaging because the cork closes the bottle. And we were like asking all the whys, you know, the whys, why do we do it? Uh because it closes the bottle. No, it doesn't close the bottle, the the cork does. Okay, so why do we keep doing it? Oh, because we needed to put the duty stamp on top of it. No, since 2019 we are able to do it online, so we don't need it. Okay, why do we keep doing it? Because we've always done it this way. And when you reach this answer, then you can start thinking of okay, how can we do it another way? You know, this is kind of things that we're fighting against.

Peter Richards MW 14:40

So with the capsule specifically, do you have any idea of of how much that is saving you in in sustainability, the wastage, and and other other inputs?

Morgane Le Breton 14:48

That's the terrible part of it because the capsule is like only two grams, so it has no impact. It's just on a more global scale, because we thought about uh going capsule free a long time ago, but we didn't do it because we were so scared of our customers' reaction. And actually, it was a macro event that uh led us to remove it just one day, one morning. It was the conflict in Ukraine because that's where all the aluminum factories are in Ukraine, and so with the conflict, there was no aluminum anymore, so no capsule. There were nine months waiting to get a supplier to supply you, so we thought, okay, it's it's today, because we were preparing for this to happen, so we thought it's it's it's now or never. And I remember a very beautiful talk with our main partner in the Netherlands, who was like, Yeah, I would I would love to be part of it, to be one of the first to actually uh put capsule free bottles on the on tables, but I also want to sell a lot of bottles, you know? And it was his team who said, Yes, but we we need to be part of it. It's a movement, it's something going on, and we we have to do it. And so we did, and nothing happened. That's we were so scared of doing it. And I had another customer, a Belgian one, who said uh that it's not normal, there's something wrong about it, it's very, very ugly. And when I explained him why we removed the capsule, then he said, Okay, well, then this is why I will keep offering the bottles. For all these reasons that you tell told me, because now this is something. So to go back to your questions, the impact on the environment and economic is very, very low because it's it's nothing. But on the social and image of wine, this is very, very high because people now offer a bottle telling to their friends, this is a capsule-free wine, this is very special, even though it's nothing.

Peter Richards MW 16:47

So it's emblematic in a way, it's a it's a symbol of what you're trying to do in terms of being sustainable, looking after the environment.

Morgane Le Breton 16:54

Because this is something that you can see. Uh, practices in the vineyard, you don't see them. There's all the the certifications and so on, it's a stamp on the bottle, but this is much more because this is something that's very breaking from the traditions.

Peter Richards MW 17:09

So, do you would you would you say should all wine go capsule-free now?

Morgane Le Breton 17:13

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Peter Richards MW 17:15

Follow your lead. Um, in terms of the light weighting of the bottles, do you have a figure on that in terms of how much you know are you saving in terms of carbon emissions and other things?

Morgane Le Breton 17:24

We did the measure um when we started 10 years ago. So we went from our bottle used to be 600 grams, and we went from 600 to 500. Today we are at 400 and lower. But when we removed only 100 grams uh 10 years ago, we made a study that showed that we uh we saved the equivalence of uh emission of a car driving more than 500,000 kilometres a year. It's a lot. That's the most difficult part with the carbon footprint, is that it's big figures, you know, you don't really know what they mean, but uh it's a lot.

Peter Richards MW 18:01

Switching to the vineyard, I know you've been active in the vineyard in terms of sustainability. Talk to us a little bit about what you're doing there.

Morgane Le Breton 18:10

We have this uh this vision of creating like uh an agricultural natural park, very humble uh vision of uh of the vineyard! But um, so we have uh 200 hectares and only 40 hectares uh is a vineyard today. So lots of forests, rivers, and uh lands, dry lands or meadows. We want to have uh to keep a ratio of one hectare of permanent meadow for one hectare of vine to have this kind of uh balance for the biodiversity and also visually to have because for us being on a biodiversity hotspot, we need to have this uh beautiful balance uh in the vineyard. So we have a lot of different techniques uh to adapt to climate change because that's our main threat in the in the vineyard. So cover crops is something that we do a lot, and uh agroforestry as well. So introducing uh agro-ecological infrastructures in the estate, and we have uh one plot that is eight hectares, where we have one row of tree every 15 rows of vines. So this is real agroforestry because you have different cultures within the same plot. Um, agroforestry is part of the IPCC report, so we know that it's uh something that we have to bring more and more in the in our culture systems, but there's no guidelines in the report, so it's it's kind of uh learning uh a learning experience. And the concept of agroforestry is that you have a tree that will grow fruits and uh and and flowers that will attract certain species of birds, so the birds will eat the fruit and they will also eat the insects, so the insect won't lay the disease on the vines and the grapes. So, as you can see on paper, it's perfect, like the formula is very great, but it's very difficult to know okay which tree is going to attract which bird and and make sure that they all work together. So it's it's a lot about densification because if we want for this natural system to help us reduce chemicals, because that's the whole point of it, we have to densify everything. So with agroforestry came instilling uh a hundred bat boxes, uh bird houses around these plots to densify all this biodiversity and make this system um beneficial for the agricultural activity part.

Peter Richards MW 20:52

I mean, a lot of regions around the world spent a lot of spend a lot of money trying to get rid of birds, um and you're actively trying to encourage them. Yes. But you really think that introducing trees and hedges back into the vineyards is is the way forward?

Morgane Le Breton 21:06

Yes, totally. Um because we we know uh it's not just about about shade, it's about the soil life. Um soil is where everything happens. It's difficult because we don't see it, but it's below our feet that uh everything is happening in these uh 40 centimetres, and and all this root uh root network is what makes the soil alive, what makes the vine, uh all nutrients and the grapes and then the wine. So this is why we focus a lot on this and also with cover crops, especially.

Peter Richards MW 21:41

And you planted this in 2018. You are now making some wine from this plot. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that story?

Morgane Le Breton 21:48

Yes. Well, it's funny because it's called a beautiful story, because it's uh Une Belle Histoire.

Peter Richards MW 21:56

Sounds so much better in French.

Morgane Le Breton 21:58

Um, and we planted the This is a Rolle grape variety. So it was very new for us, quite new for our region as well. So we learn a new grape and we planted it in agroforestry. So we learned a new technique and new agricultural method. And we wanted to make a new kind of wine. So we made 11.5 alcohol degrees wine, which is lighter than our usual whites, which are more about around 13 degrees. And we wanted to make so light, fruity, and with very, very small bubbles. We didn't want it to be a sparkling white, uh, but be like a nice uh chilled uh white to enjoy by itself or with uh fruits and desserts.

Peter Richards MW 22:46

So this is a really groundbreaking, innovative wine. It's it's it's made from a grape variety Rolle, which is a little bit different. It's grown in an agroforestry plot and it's got these little bit of bubbles. We tried it for lunch, it was delicious. How are you finding how is this wine going down?

Morgane Le Breton 23:01

It's very interesting because, like you said, it's really new. So people are trying to put it in a box, but it's it's difficult because it's not sparkling, it's not frizzante, it's really lower, but it's it's really, really nice. So we sell it very well just before summer, you know, when summer arrives and people start having beautiful days and thinking, okay, now that's the wine, to bring like to I I like to say to turn every small moment into a celebration because that's what it is.

Peter Richards MW 23:30

That's a great philosophy for life. Um so how are you finding the lower alcohol category more more widely? Is that is that a popular, ever more popular category?

Morgane Le Breton 23:41

Um it is, yes. We also launched, uh worked on a red uh like this as well. Um it's called Picolo Picolette. It's uh red that's around 12 degrees.

Peter Richards MW 23:53

Tell us about this sort of chillable red category, uh refreshing red.

Morgane Le Breton 23:57

Yeah, it really is a guilty pleasure. I think it's going to follow the same trend as the rosé. You know, in the past, rosé was not considered as wine. Today it really is. I see the figures, it's a really, really rising uh category in our portfolio. And I think these light reds are going to be exactly the same. And they might be even better because they are going to attract a wider uh audience, I think. It's really an opening door. That's why I think it's gonna have a much wider impact than rosé, because we are really going to reach a wider audience.

Susie Barrie MW 24:35

So chillable reds as a big potential growth category, bigger possibly than rosé. Um that's a really interesting thought. Um we did like their Picolo Picolette though when we tried it.

Peter Richards MW 24:45

We did, we did delicious. Uh, which incidentally Morgane recommended with a tian of seasonal vegetables, a bit like ratatouille. What do you think of that much?

Susie Barrie MW 24:53

Very nice.

Peter Richards MW 24:54

Oh, yum. Uh, and I can see what she means. People love rose because it's versatile and fun, and chillable or lighter reds can do exactly that if they're well made, which uh isn't always easy, of course. Uh, and a lot of people do prefer red to rose, so there's a big potential market there, I think.

Susie Barrie MW 25:09

Yeah, and that Belle Histoire white is interesting too, isn't it? Made with the Rolle Vor vermentino grape variety.

Peter Richards MW 25:15

Yeah, again, pushing boundaries, you know, in one sense, in terms of the style, it's a lovely upbeat, refreshing white, but also gently bubbly, so it sort of defies genres, really. But delicious, like many of their wines. And also then, you know, groundbreaking in terms of the fact that it's grown in an agroforestry plot where trees are intentionally part of the growing system to help promote soil life and natural pest control and biodiversity more generally.

Susie Barrie MW 25:39

Yeah, this is a really intriguing trend, isn't it? Agroforestry. I mean it's it's a big thing, particularly in France. Even Cheval Blanc are doing it. Um and actually Morgane said they have a neighbouring estate, Domaine de Restinclieres doing lots of applied research into exactly this method. And there are indications it can help along the lines, Morgane suggests. And also do things like regulate heat peaks and raise ambient moisture levels when it gets hot, sequestering carbon and preventing frost. As Morgane said, they're doing all the trials, so it'll be interesting to see what comes out of that.

Peter Richards MW 26:14

Yeah, it will. I mean, it's fascinating agroforestry as a potential sustainability solution. And we all like trees, don't we?

Susie Barrie MW 26:20

We do, we do.

Peter Richards MW 26:21

That's all good. Uh Morgane also had some other eye-opening views to share on her vision for wine's future in a challenging modern environment. But we'll come back to those in due course. Meantime, a pause.

MID-EPISODE RECAP

Peter Richards MW 26:34

To recap so far, France is often thought of as a bastion of wine tradition. But Pays d'Oc IGP is all about innovation and keeping one step ahead of the game, which is why things like orange wine, natural wine, rose organics, chillable reds, light weighting, and agroforestry are very much part of the picture. Future-proofing, it's called.

Domaine Gayda interview (Tim Ford)

Susie Barrie MW 26:56

But that's not all that's going on in Pays d'Oc IGP. Uh, time to bring in our third guest, Tim Ford of Domain Gayda, an organic producer based not far from Carcassonne. Since its inception in 2003, Gaiya has built an enviable reputation, making wines from a variety of locations within Pays d'Oc, from Roussillon to La Liviniere, including its emblematic spicy syrup-based blend, Chemin de Moscou.

Peter Richards MW 27:24

Tim is English by origin, even though he's now naturalised French, he was keen to add. He was in the rose business in Southern Africa when he met his current business partner, Anthony Record, and winemaker Vincent Chansaut. They made the plan that would become Domaine Gayda, which is a beautiful spot, complete with shop, restaurant, and luxury accommodation. Tim is the best kind of interview subject, talkative, perceptive, and constantly tasting and enjoying his wines, including the Altre Cami and Figure Libre labels, which he references in the interview, and which, if you listen closely, you can hear him pouring at the start! And also there's a bit of howling wind in the background of the interview, too. It's all conjured as a lovely picture, doesn't it? I asked him for his thoughts on the Pays d'Oc category, given Gayda has majored on Pays d'Oc IGP wines from the start.

Tim Ford 28:14

Yes, right from the start. Well, one thing we didn't really like to have our hands tied by we wanted the freedom of 58 grape varieties, blame what we do, what we like. The freedom, and this is one of our ranges called Figure Libre, which is freestyle, and that's based on the concept of we're given the freedom, you know, not weird old fogies in weird robes and jewels and weird handshakes telling us what's good and what's not good. You know, we can make that decision ourselves.

Peter Richards MW 28:43

But it's not giving you uh a freedom of expression?

Tim Ford 28:46

Yes. However, the opportunity's 58 grape varieties and of a large area of vineyards, but that's the challenge as well. How do you float to the top of that? That's the challenge. But if without challenges, what's going to get you out of bed in the morning?

Peter Richards MW 29:00

So, what's been your approach in that sense?

Tim Ford 29:03

Float to the top - quality, of course. Uncompromising work. Everything we do is based on quality. Brand building, I mean, that's very critical. I mean, you know, my kids are both in the fashion business. You know, they just tell me the story of Hermès. You know, you know, Hermes, you know, they've they've added a brand value, you know, five times production cost, but they started making saddles with incredible workmanship for years and years and years. So building a brand is not just creating, fabricating a brand, it's creating a perfect quality product based on quality for years and years and years, and you create that sustainable brand. And we've done that with our flagship brand Chemin de Moscou. It's that uncompromising approach to quality that Vincent has done and achieved. And he's created a brand, but it doesn't happen overnight, like it didn't happen to him. So they've been going over 120 years, you know, and they now create a brand. Now they can charge five times their production costs, you know. Maybe we'll be able to do that one day. Not yet.

Peter Richards MW 29:57

Now Pays d'Oc has a strong varietal focus. Uh, which varieties are getting you most excited right now?

Tim Ford 30:03

Well, you asked me to select three wines. Well, I showed you three wines which really, really stand out for us, which is Macabeu, Grenache Gris, Grenache... Vermentino is another one, which we do a blend, uh, Vermentino and a Syrah called En Passant. I would say Vermentino, Macabeu, or Macabeo, whichever you come from, Grenache Gris. Those are the ones that that for us we really want to make uh put on a pedestal because we believe they have unique characters. When when you taste them, I think you can't really say this is like this, this is like that. Well, it's got its own identity. It's from the it's from the Roussillon, and it's very terroir specific. It comes from a home, it has provenance. Provenance is really important, as I'm sure everyone will know. Provenance is is is is the basis of storytelling, you know.

Peter Richards MW 30:56

But uh why those grape varieties, particularly?

Tim Ford 31:00

I think they define who we are. Uh, we want to be a bit different, we want to have our own identity. I wouldn't say economics come into that because they're very small batches. They help us profile the winery of what we can do if the market, if the consumer's willing to pay, you know, 25, 30 quid a bottle of wine, you know, happy days. However, we are limited because some of those uh vines we're producing, those are you know, 80, 90 years old. You can't recreate that, you know. They're they're that age and they're you know very old, and it's not not really that viable, even though you know uh we're selling for a you know a high price, a fine wine price, 25, 30 quid a bottle in England. But I think it it reflects who we are, you know, doing something different, doing it with care, respecting nature, respecting the old vineyards, trying to keep the heritage going, perpetuating something that's been there for a bit of the heritage of the Languedoc.

Peter Richards MW 32:05

I was gonna say, just talk to us a little bit about that, the importance of preserving heritage. These are historic great varieties in the region. They speak of the region.

Tim Ford 32:12

Yeah, I think you can, you know, I think you have knee-jerk reactions always to the market, can't you? So I think having uh uh some heritage varieties, you know, and maintaining those, I think that creates some stability and some, you know, it's not all following market demands and market trends, you know. But I mean, you know, some are saying, oh, the global wine business is shrinking by three, four percent, but it's still globally worth $500 billion. You know, it's still a massive business. People are going to be drinking wine long before I've gone, or my children are gone, or my grandchildren. So although it's challenges of changing consumer habit, it's still a massive, so there's still reason to keep going on some of these heritage varieties to keep them there and to keep them going so people know, you know, what people used to drink and and and you know how it was, you know, what great varieties were around. You know, like like like you talk about vessels, you know, in amphoras and clays. Well, you know, 20 years ago no one did that, and now everyone's like they were doing two, three thousand years ago in Georgia, you know. So there are heritage grape varieties, there's heritage method methodology also in making wine.

Peter Richards MW 33:23

Um, talking turning to styles, uh, we've just had a lovely chillable reds. Talk to us about chillable reds .

Tim Ford 33:29

Yeah, that is that is we we we love it, and I think that Grenache forms in that that bracket enormously. I mean, chillable reds, the first, the golden rule is it's got to be non-tannic, otherwise it tastes like cold tea. It really is an awful drink. But if you've got soft tannins, and Grenache, of course, is a great variety, it lends itself to soft tannins. Chilled reds, I mean, we see it everywhere. I mean, it's it's it is a trend, and we love it. I mean, you know, 12, 12, 14 degrees for a nice summer red, I mean, it's wonderful. And there's certain varieties that suit it and some don't, you know. Grenache is the best, Cinsault also works, and you know, there's certain things, certain reds that work, and I just think it's a good it's a good category.

Peter Richards MW 34:10

And uh lower alcohol in general, how are you seeing that?

Tim Ford 34:14

Well, interesting, of course. This is really this is get gets me going because it's been a massive discussion for us a lot of years. Low alcohol, lower alcohol is where we believe the future is. With this year, we've reduced just by various things. This year, sorry, I talk about this year, that's 2025 vintage. We've reduced all alcohols between 0.5 and 1%, which is really good. We're producing uh you know, rosé 12%, producing some whites, you know. I mean, think when we started 23 years ago, you know, 15% didn't scare us. Now 15 is unsaleable in our to our customers. You know, we're hoping, you know, 13.5% for us now is max, and we want to go down slowly. And it's there is certainly cultural things. We're along with all, we've got one challenge of climate, of course, because you know, the climate, you know, you've got you can't pick grapes too young because you know the sugar hasn't built your potential alcohol hasn't built up, otherwise, other things aren't ripe, you know, it hasn't gone through its its maturation process, so you're gonna lose other things. So it's a challenge. But Vincent, this year, just with certain tweaks and stuff. I mean, some people talk about working with different yeasts and things. We can bring, you know, the technology that's coming out, different yeasts that's that that will reduce alcohol levels a bit.

Peter Richards MW 35:34

So it's something you're working on.

Tim Ford 35:36

It is, and you're doing that through a mixture of different things, yeast or yeast uh varietals planting in different areas, so it but it's a very long-term thing. But we understand we have to go there, and it is a trend that is on the way, and we've managed this year. That's a lot this year, last year's vintage, say between one, I think nearly up to one percent average reduction. And I think it's a global trend. I do laugh when people think that they want low alcoholism more healthy, and you go to Carcassonne, there's five new, you know, deep-fried chicken when restaurants opened, you know. So, you know, they can get away with producing awful food that's going to kill you, and that's expanding and booming globally. Ultra-processed food, people eating more and more of that, but everyone's attacking wine as an unhealthy drink. Anyway, that's another discussion. That's a discussion with it. That's another discussion.

Susie Barrie MW 36:25

Another discussion indeed! Um, but beyond that, Tim is clearly another proponent of chillable reds, also working towards lower alcohols across the board, which is interesting, and then a champion of ancestral grape varieties.

Peter Richards MW 36:37

Yeah, well, I mean, we tasted a few of his Altre Cami wines uh made from these kind of historic grape varieties, macabeu, grenache gris, grenache noir, and they were delicious, you know. So, you know, Gayda makes a range of grape varieties, including the best known names, but they also do these slightly more niche things, which Tim says is you know important for keeping the heritage and local identity alive, which I think is wonderful. It's really important.

Susie Barrie MW 36:59

He also seems to be very astute commercially, um, and he stressed, didn't he, that the future is not about downsizing but right -sizing, i.e., tailoring your business to the changing market conditions, but keeping true to your values and identity. Um organics is obviously important to them. So is biodiversity, so is wine quality, so is wine tourism, um, and so is staying in business!

Domaine de Sauzet interview (Nicolas Moine)

Peter Richards MW 37:24

Wise people, wise people. Now, uh, someone else who values the freedom that Pays d'Oc IGP offers is Nicolas Moine, uh, winemaker at the organic Domain de Sauzet in the hills north of Montpellier. Uh, Nicolas makes all kinds of things from chillable reds to orange to low sulfite to blends and single varieties. He even grows PIWIs or disease-resistant varieties. He says the Pays d'Oc IGP category allows him, and I quote, 'to really express the best of each year because I am very free.'

Susie Barrie MW 37:53

Now we can confirm that these are unashamedly characterful, often excellent wines, and from the more affordable end to, for example, the Hick et Nunc label, which comes in both red and white, and whose varietal makeup varies from vintage to vintage. It isn't cheap. The red sells for 50 euros, but it is ambitious and at its best, absolutely delicious. Now Nicolas says his aim is to make fresh, complex wines that sometimes, as he says, are initially shy and need five or six years to come into their own.

Peter Richards MW 38:26

So there is an intriguing kind of ambition at Domaine de Sauzet, not necessarily in the way you might ordinarily expect when you mention that word in a wine context. It all becomes clear chatting with Nicola. I asked him why Hic et Nunc is a Pays d'Oc IGP at that kind of price.

Nicolas Moine 38:44

It's because it it's the the golden nugget of the of the vintage, of each vintage. We don't produce it uh each year. Uh it's a s it's a little production, so almost uh thousand or two thousand bottles, and there is no rule for the blend. So it could be 100% Syrah, like the 2020, it could be carbonic maceration, it could be traditional fermentation, it could be a lot of things, but the only rule it it has to be the best wine of the five last year to be put in that bottle. Okay, so uh surprise. Yes, and we and we were rewarded uh at the Decanter uh uh by uh a platinum medal in 2023, so it works. And I've tasted these wines and they are delicious.

Peter Richards MW 39:39

Um so yeah, talk to us about orange wine as well. Why what are you doing with on that front?

Nicolas Moine 39:44

Okay, it's very simple. Uh I use grey grapes because it's grey Grenache. Grenache grey. Um, very versatile variety, so interesting. And I I make the wine like if I made a light red, I want to do uh something very accessible on in the style and in the price. So the price is uh here at the estate is uh 9.5 euro and usually in France you f the orange wine are more around 20, something like that. And uh so I want first I want to do this accessible and the style, yeah. I don't want something too with too much tannin. I don't I don't want bitterness, I don't want bitterness in in this kind of wine. Uh I want the people a bit lost, you know, because it's uh you will see it's uh the the colour is almost rose, but it's a white, and uh this wine like aeration, like a red, uh give him it some air, and after two or three days is uh you have the full flavour coming like a red.

Peter Richards MW 40:50

And also just from a consumer's point of view, you said sometimes people get lost. Are you partly perhaps doing orange wine to challenge people's expectations?

Nicolas Moine 41:00

Yes, definitely. I want to yes, people are stuck in in too many uh ideas about the wine, the things uh they cannot taste the wine because they don't have the knowledge. And I think it's a way if I have a group of people here, uh you have the some people knowing the wine, talking a lot, and you have the other that's saying nothing because they think they don't they didn't know anything. And if I put orange wine in a glass, uh everyone is at the same level, and so it's very interesting because there is an interaction between people and they can uh together uh try to understand this new kind of wine. It's more inclusive, I mean. That's really interesting.

Peter Richards MW 41:50

So you know for you, uh IGP Pays d'Oc wines can challenge expectations, it can make wine more accessible.

Nicolas Moine 41:57

Definitely. That's why we produce uh with IGP Pays d'Oc, yes, because it's let uh it's it's yes, it's more accessible for two people, right? In terms of price, in terms of style, in terms of uh freedom of uh labels. T

Peter Richards MW 42:17

Tell us about lighter, chillable reds. Is this a style that is interesting for you right now?

Nicolas Moine 42:20

Yes, definitely. Yes. I like the way you can you can drink a red like uh in the same like in the uh like a rose, definitely. And uh a lot of people here came and they said to me, okay, I don't want to drink rose. And I said, okay, try to to chill, put this red in the fridge, and it's uh it's sulfite-free, it's only 12 degrees, low alcohol, and yes, and usually people like it.

Peter Richards MW 42:49

But sometimes there can be resistance, that can't they? People look at you and say, hang on, chilling reds, that's a bit weird?! Why would I do that?!

Nicolas Moine 42:53

t Yeah, usually I I put the wine in the glass, they taste it and after I talk. Because if you talk too much before the tasting people have the ideas in mind, and it's like even for the organic wine. If you said some people, if you said it's an organic wine, they said, Oh perfect, I only drink organic wine, and if you and the other people you said it and they said, Okay, I don't want to try because organic wine is is shit or I don't know, whatever. So I prefer to don't say to try to let taste without saying too much at the beginning.

Peter Richards MW 43:28

And when people do try it and do like a chillable red, w why do they like them?

Nicolas Moine 43:34

They like because um yeah, it's light in alcohol in alcohol, but it's it's drinkable, so it's good. You want uh you drink a glass and you want another one at the point. And is um it's not a complex wine, it's accessible. That means people can everyone can talk about around a table because it's simple. h

Peter Richards MW 43:56

PIWIs or hybrids - do you see these becoming you know a bigger part of the future?

Nicolas Moine 44:04

I think it it could be the market is um is quite uh hard today and uh the vintner the winemaker try to reduce the cost of production and I think in this uh per in this time the the PIWI variety are interesting because uh you don't have to to spray a lot I mean two times a year and um it's good for the environment because you use less uh fuel to crop the the vineyard. The the point is uh the name of the variety uh needs to be more known.

Peter Richards MW 44:47

And where do you feel we are quality-wise at the moment with the wines made from PIWIs or hybrids?

Nicolas Moine 44:54

I think for the wine usually we PIWIs are used for to make uh I think in my opinion, simple white or simple red, simple rose, uh drinkable um quickly. But for the market of simple wine, I think yes, we can go definitely. But with uh probably with strong um with strong names of estate because we cannot use the name of because the name of the variety is not known for the by the by the people. Yeah.

Peter Richards MW 45:26

How do you how do you work to maximise freshness in your wines and keep alcohols as as low as you can?

Nicolas Moine 45:34

The the the time of the harvest, definitely. The blend is it's very interesting. You can we can we can have the the flavours with a variety of grapes. Uh for example, we can let a Grenache on uh on the plot for a longer time, and we can have the freshness with uh Cinsault sensor, for example. And blending the both, we have we have the flavour from the Grenache and a kind of freshness with the Cinsault. We don't I don't uh modify the acidity uh putting tartaric acid in the wine. It's I don't want to make that, so yes, I choose different uh time to harvest, and and and also I plant different variety for the future. For example, we planted a plot of uh Assyrtiko uh white, we planted uh some Picpoul here, and we planted also uh an old variety, the Clairette, it's more full body, it can give uh aromas and some bitterness but not too much, and we work like this in the same plot we plant different variety and we have almost the blend in the plot. The the hard part is to, as winemaker, is to is to guess what kind of wine we will find on the market in the last uh in 30 years, because we plant it now for the for the you know for the 20 years coming. So and here we planted a lot of white.

Susie Barrie MW 47:13

So the future is white and orange too, I guess! Um intriguing those new plantings of Assyrtiko, Picpoul, and Clairette, tying back into what we said at the top about people keen to try new things, adapt to markets, but also to climate change.

Peter Richards MW 47:28

Yeah, and and I mentioned a different kind of ambition at Domain de Sauzet, and hopefully that's apparent from what Nicolas was saying. It's this ambition to be inclusive, to engage or even challenge people in a way that goes beyond the simple dynamics of price and variety, be it with orange, with low sulphite, with chillable reds, with different blends, you know.

Susie Barrie MW 47:45

Now, touching on that ambition, I know Nicolas also stressed the importance of having fun with wine. Like Gerard Bertrand in part one. You know, he says their funky labels reflect that and he likes it when they become a talking point. Uh, he said he's got a winemaking friend in Bordeaux, and they look to the Pays d'Oc to see what's happening at the cutting edge of packaging and styles.

Peter Richards MW 48:08

There we go. Uh, talking of fun, do you remember what happened when we visited? Uh we got we got there quite late. Uh we need to share this. We got to the domaine quite late on. It was a bit chilly and windy. I think you were particularly cold at the time. I was, I went to the city. We were going to eat outside, but I think we managed to control them, didn't we, into potentially tasting and eating inside. Um at that point when we were inside, owner Francois Massol's six-year-old son, delightful boy, rushed in to tell us, brimming with mischievous excitement, how the dog had just brought the table crashing down and was currently tucking into our dinner. It wasn't the best start. It was a bit of a low point, I'll be honest, uh, at the end of a long, uh tiring day. But then after that, all was saved. We carried on, there were lots of smiles. We carried on late into the night, enjoying, you know, it was really simple food, stimulating company, and crucially just relishing those sort of engaging, food-friendly, thought-provoking wines...

Morgane Le Breton final thoughts

Peter Richards MW 49:06Susie Barrie MW 49:06

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it was interesting and very funny. Um, not probably quite at the moment. Um, right, just before we draw things to a close, we said we'd hear some concluding thoughts from Morgane Le Breton. You asked her what the biggest challenges in Pays d'Oc are and what she'd like to do about them.

Morgane Le Breton 49:23

The biggest challenge now is uh thinking of the future. Last year in 2025, we had these uh mega fires in the Pays d'Oc region, especially in the Aude in Narbonne. It happened just after a big French governmental action where you could uh remove the vines, you know, because there's less consumption of wine, so you don't need as much vines, so you remove the vines. And we realised that if the vines would have still been there, then maybe they would have stopped part of the fire because vine is a natural uh fire slower, you know, it doesn't stop the fire as it's but it can slow it. And uh when I think of I told you about this uh natural agricultural park vision that we have. Maybe the purpose of vine in the future won't be to just produce wine. Maybe the purpose of vine would be to protect landscapes, uh, enhance biodiversity, and protect from climate uh phenomena like fires. But today I'm having this discussion just with my family because it's it's not something that you can discuss. It's not something in the wine industry that you can say that oh, maybe our vineyards won't be used to make wine, they be used to be beautiful in the landscapes and to maintain a certain biodiversity and to make sure that the houses won't get burned. But I think this is a a reality and the reality of tomorrow. And when I say we're we're going to have this conversation in 10 years, I actually know that within five years we will have had it, especially in my family, when we think of okay, we have 200 hectares, 40 hectares of vine. What do we do of these 40 hectares? Do we plant more, plant less? And and this is one of the challenges I face today in the Pays d'Oc area is we are struggling because of the lowering consumption, and we just have our heads in the vines, you know, and we're not able to just take a step back and think, okay, what do we do now?

Peter Richards MW 51:39

What do we do now? What do you do now?

Morgane Le Breton 51:42

Well, I keep on talking and trying to find people who want to talk about it and think of what do you think of this model and uh what do you think of this kind of thing? And we we find some people who are actually uh working on it, and I think wine tourism is going to save uh the industry. So this is going to be a shift in the mindset, you know. So that's why I think it's going to be hard because it's not wine tourism is not about saying you can have a tasting at the cellar, you know, it's about creating a real offer. And again, New World do it really, really well. I I've had the chance to visit uh Napa Valley and uh South Africa, and yet their business is based on wine tourism first, and then they sell wine. So that's this shift that is going to be hard to take, but uh once we will, I think the profession will be will feel better because then the vines will be here for a purpose, you know, because if you want to welcome tourists to see a vineyard, you need the vines, and maybe you will sell more wines as well, even though your first revenue stream is maybe from activities, but these activities will uh they will celebrate and honour all the works we have, all the skills we have, all the different types of cultures, of grape varieties, and so on.

Peter Richards MW 53:08

Morgane, how do you see the future of uh IGP Pays d'Oc?

Morgane Le Breton 53:12

Uh beautiful, beautiful and still free, free from uh everything, all the challenges we talked about. I think once uh a Pays d'Oc producer embraces this freedom and owns it, starts owning this freedom of choice, of uh practices, of actions, uh in the cellar, in the office, in the in the vineyard, then I know uh we will sell more and more wines.

Susie Barrie MW 53:42

Wow, lots to digest there! Wine tourism as a potential saviour of the wine industry. We did touch on that in part one with Gerard Bertrand and Jacques Gravegeal, who agree. Um, and of course, particularly important here in Mediterranean France, um, but also then the notion of keeping vines in the ground to preserve the landscape as much as anything else.

Peter Richards MW 54:03

Yeah, I mean it sounds almost sacrilegious, doesn't it, to our ears, I'm sure, to many ears. But you know, it does make sense, uh, especially if the vineyards are farmed organically or with minimal intervention, so you know, not damaging the ecosystems around them, like with the agroforestry system Morgane mentioned. And and you know, they'd be part of a vineyard experience for visitors, so tying into wine tourism as well.

Susie Barrie MW 54:26

Yeah, and I think as as Morgane suggested, it would be a big mindset shift on the part of producers. Um but of course that's exactly where we started off this Pays d'Oc discussion, wasn't it? Talking about a wine crisis back in the mid-20th century that growers struggled to get their heads around. And now there's a different set of challenges facing wine producers, but no less serious. And perhaps what Morgane is suggesting might be part of the solution...

FINAL SUMMARY

Susie Barrie MW 54:52Peter Richards MW 54:52

Either way, an intriguing note to end on. Perhaps something we'll come back to. In fact, I'm sure it probably is. Uh anyway, this has been a long episode. We need to wrap up. By way of closing summary, Pays d'Oc IGP was born out of an iconoclastic vision for French wine, prioritising quality grape varieties, and over 40 years has proved a resounding success. Now, there's a new crisis facing Pays d'Oc producers, but you get the sense that the innovation and forward thinking that's always been at the heart of Pays d'Oc IGP will prove constructive, not just for itself, but also the wider wine world.

Susie Barrie MW 55:27

It's not often in French wine you can have discussions that veer swiftly and meaningfully between things like orange wine, Assyriko, wine tourism, ancestral varieties, light weighting, lower alcohol solutions, PIWIs, funky blends, bag in box, organics, Grenache Gris, championing rosé, agroforestry, fighting price points, natural wine, and the importance of fun. But here we are, and we hope you've enjoyed it!

Peter Richards MW 55:55

Thanks to our interviewees, Lolie Solves from Ricardelle de Lautrec, Morgane Le Breton from Maison Le Breton, Tim Ford from Domain Gayda, and Nicolas Moine from Domain de Sauzet. Thanks also to Pays d'Oc IGP for sponsoring. And finally, huge thanks as ever to you for listening. We're off to have a glass of chillable red. Uh, and we'll leave you with the peaceful sound of the gurgling spring brook at Maison Le Breton, where water is another highly prized asset. Until next time, cheers!