Second Thoughts

The reality of Ron's Dive has set in, and second thoughts are real. What have I done, and will this work out?  Dealing with the reality of second thoughts on Swan Dive.

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Transcript

spk_0:   0:00
Once you make your leap and pivot, you're bound to have second thoughts. These thoughts are really so. Today we talk about embracing your new identity while bracing for the judgment that may come your way. Yeah, the voice inside my head was saying, What did I just do? But you deal with it with conviction and gratitude. Golden handcuffs have just been unlocked. Now on swan dive conviction, courage and embracing this new identity, it's time to jump. This is swan dive from the studios of Peacock in Park in Historic Avondale, on the banks of the Saint John's River in Jacksonville, Florida and coming to you from the Pacific Coast and Costa Rica from the fancy, nasty studios. This is another addition of Swan Dive with Stu  Sheldon and Ron Rothberg. Our conversations as we pivot into our vision. Hello, stu

spk_1:   1:00
Ron, Hey, buddy,

spk_0:   1:03
these conversations are so compelling for me, and I just I I enjoy this time stew. We're really building something strong here, and I really enjoy this time with you.

spk_1:   1:12
Yes, indeed. It's wonderful. Wonderful. You know, it's just for the love of the game. And Sharon Sharon are our experience. So let's do it,

spk_0:   1:21
So let's go back in time a little bit. This is a real time discussion about me Swan diving into a new career, putting to bed a 16 year media career and diving off the cliff into the great unknown and and your perspective on this from several decades after your dive, your vision and your art, and the person who you are that that you grew into by going away from that person that you didn't want to be. So that's where we were. And last week was a big week because it was my dive. I said goodbye. I told my boss that it was time to go, and I guess today's episode will call this one second thoughts because after you dive, maybe sometimes you're gonna have second thoughts and that's that's natural. And quite frankly, the last several days were filled with second thoughts. But my conviction has not wavered. One of the things you talked about the last time we had these mikes open was today is gonna be one of these days, and I think that we need to have a conversation about my day to say goodbye was last week. That day But I think every day along the journey you can put something on your path another stone down the path that you can commit Thio. And you can walk down such as, you know, making your plan, assessing your talent, assessing your value. Where do you want to go and just really kind of committing some time in some effort to that dream. So what is it today?

spk_1:   3:02
Yeah, Listen, I think if you're listening to this podcast, you have an inherent interest in making a change, making a move, and ah, and therefore, it's important to start to think of that idea no longer as an abstraction as, ah, one of these days, I'm gonna dot, dot dot But as a real thing that you're going to do that you're gearing up for And so today is one of these days is simply a way to say, like, put something on the paper today. It doesn't have to be that conversation with the boss. I mean, that's kind of a big climax, if you will, but it can be that you say to yourself today. You look in the mirror and you say unequivocally I'm gonna do this. I'm doing this? It's happening, man enough. And then then So make today one of these days where it is a pivotal moment. And it's something internally or externally, that that you that is part of your big change.

spk_0:   4:05
You sent me a quote yesterday that said, The trouble is you think you have time and that was from Buddha. Made me pause.

spk_1:   4:15
Yep, we got you know that the cameras are rolling, man, we're burning film. You don't have time. My good friends and neighbors a few weeks ago were visiting me in Miami, where I was for a few words for the break and ah, on their way to dinner one night they got smashed by another car, and thankfully, no one was hurt. But there the car that there they were in was totaled. I mean, hey, it's cliche, but that Zez, there's only limited time. So get to get toe, move it, get to pivoted.

spk_0:   4:53
Yeah, you got to You got to put some sort of commit to something, and it is important to commit it to paper, you know, to put it on the canvas or to put it on something, it does make it real that is something that that I did. I plotted that course I've had this plan for a while, you know. We talked about it and we moved it for forward this year just because enough was enough. And and I know that one of the things that happens over the time between the time you dive and that time that you're planning, there's a lot of frustration. I know I felt it. I know I felt a lot of frustration, and I wanted to talk a little bit about how I got through it. My wife has been fan freaking tastic, you know, because the last year was tough. I wasn't getting what I needed out of my career, and my wife was really a great supporter in that she would say, Listen, concentrate on the things that you like because there are things you like. There's two things on everybody's desk, the things you like to do and the things you have to dio and the pile gets a little uneven, and that's why it's time to maybe plot your course but just covet those things that you like and the other thing that I love and something that I've been really concentrating on in the last year was falling into gratitude, grateful for the opportunity that I have choices that I can make. Grateful for my family, grateful for a job that pays me grateful for the ability to t pay the bills and gratitude is something that helps me get through those days when it is hard to do what has done when you're wearing the grooves out one more time doing the same thing over and over again and saying, Gosh, I got to do something different But I am grateful that I am here. I am grateful for the opportunities that I have, and that helped me to hang out for a little bit longer.

spk_1:   6:47
Yeah, well, it's great. It's fresh, it's fresh in your mind and, uh, and let's hear, let's hear about your conversation with your wife

spk_0:   6:56
So she, um she basically was, you know, she's been a big supporter. But last night or the other day, we were talking about second chance second thoughts. I said, So you're you're on board with this, right? And she was like, Yeah, I'm quietly uneasy, but it's your decision, and I'm like, Yeah, okay, so I'm like I came

spk_1:   7:23
out a big surprise. I mean, was that a curveball? A bit?

spk_0:   7:27
A little bit. Yes, it was, Um, yes, it was because, you know, she has also said, Listen, you've carried the bag for a long time in this family, and it is if that's what you want to do. That's what you want to dio and we've we've obviously we've made a plan for this, but still, you know, safety is a big thing. You know, staying towards safety is a huge thing. So she's resident that that conversation was resonating in my head. And meanwhile, when I go back in the office on Monday morning, I go into my boss's office and she said, You know, I've been thinking about this a lot this weekend. Maybe you should just hang on a few more months. Why don't you just stay through the end of the year? You know, it's really a good gig. You get paid well, you could continue to get paid, and there they go against do I look down at my hands and I saw the handcuffs, you know, and it was easy to fall back. I could have really easily fought, fell back and said, You know what? I guess I could keep doing it, but that really wasn't what I said to her. I said, I hate Listen, I wouldn't have said what I said to you last week if I wasn't fully convicted, there was no way we would have had that conversation last week if if I didn't know in my heart that it was the right thing to Dio for me and for you. And she kind of, you know, took that and said, I know, I know, right? The money's good and you got insurance and you know, we got this and, you know, and and and we talked about this before. Money is one metric. It gives you the safety. It gives you the opportunity. But it doesn't get you where you want to go, and there's a burning inside of me to do something different. And that is not going to be bought off by more stock options. That grant this year. Yeah, just not

spk_1:   9:24
Most people you know used to call that the golden handcuffs where you're just making so much dough, and there's just so many perks and Benny's that It's just inconceivable for many people to walk away from that. And, uh, I walked away from it. I mean, not only did I walk away from, you know, from a good a good income and benefits, but I actually had to pay a write a check back to my firm because we had gotten, um, we had gotten some big bonuses, but there was there was some strings attached. We had to stay at the firm X amount of of years, and so I actually to pay my firm to leave. But I Well, I was happy to do it, to be honest with you, just like a CZ you would have been, I imagined. But my point is really that some folks, those golden handcuffs are just They're just on too tight, man. They just they just, you know, and it's just that they don't walk away or they postpone it for a year or two, and that becomes five. Um, but those folks that just No, no, no, like you obviously do its and refreshing to hear you say it again. They're just like, you know what? I I appreciate that. And thank you. It's nice to be wanted. Um, but I'm out and love to hear it,

spk_0:   10:38
and it doesn't placate the uneasiness that I still feel right. I still feel uneasy, and I think that's really important to talk about that because second thoughts, second thoughts or riel man, second thoughts were real, and I could have felt I could have really not been as convicted as I was and then hearing my you know, my wife's conversation resonate in my head where I thought she was in a different place, and then she kind of change that tune a bit. And I woke up this morning. She was leaving early for a conference and I said, Hey, man, I hadn't sleep well last night, you know, after what you said last night, and I was just thinking about it and and, um, and I was worried, and I've been worrying tonight and she said, You know, worrying isn't a bad thing. Worrying is fairly healthy, you know, over worrying that can take you into a really weird place and screw up your blood pressure and other things. But to worry about things is to cover off on him, so there's a healthy worrying and an unhealthy worrying and perhaps those second thoughts and where we're going because it is a big decision with plenty of gravitas, that that is a byproduct, that Israel. And that's why I want to put it out there, that I'm feeling it. You're feeling it.

spk_1:   12:02
You'd be it. I mean, listen, it's I did this when I was single and ah, and had some money in the bank. And, you know, it was super amped to start film school the very next day. So I was already kind of like fully committed to something else. Like within 24 hours, you have two kids and they're in school, and it's fair for your wife would be surprised and amazed if she wasn't somewhat concerned. I mean, she loves you and she wants you to be happy. She wants there to be, ah, safety net. He wants to know that the bills were paid and that everyone's gonna be okay. That's that's That's her job. She's a good mom. She's a good partner. And me and it's your job to, you know, But you've got this covered man. You got this? Yeah, and it's it's gonna you're gonna have Ah Ah, hole tsunami of emotions that are gonna come and go. And, um, I'm sure most people that do this in some capacity um, there's there's a wave of fear and Oh, my God, what have I done? Um, that comes soon after the leap. I mean, if you want to stay with the metaphor of the swan dive, you know you're falling and your, you know, your stomach is just in your throat and ah, it's just Ah, it's it's uncomfortable. So that's what you're at.

spk_0:   13:19
But having those honest conversations and to have that on the table is very important because at the same time, later, you know, in the morning we're talking And, um, you know, again totally supportive. And she asked me, You know, after you know, March after you're done, um, can can I leave you like a list of things to get done around the house? And I'm like white? Why? Certainly, my dear, I will be happy. And ah, we've been going back and forth this past weekend. She said, you know, if I when you're doing this thing, you know, I know you're gonna work, and you're gonna do your thing and you're going to be talking to stew and doing the podcast. But I'm gonna leave you list every now and again. And there's this one thing that's been out there for a while. We've got these lights, these can lights in the kitchen and they've been out and I'm like, I'll get the electrician's And she was out the other day and and she came back and they're fixed And I I I said, Honey, you know you're gone and you know you have that list. You're talking about the list. Look, I'm already being productive. Look, your lights work. She's like, My God, how did that happen? I said, You know, it went on YouTube. There was a transponder in the back of the switch and I went toe lows, and I switched it out, and I did. I did it and she's like, Really, I said no. I said, I'm an idiot. Last time I tried to change these things out, I used bad light bulbs, and this time I used real ones. I, uh, I couldn't pee. I couldn't. I couldn't keep a straight face, but you know, I'll be I'll be very useful in my new life indeed. Yeah, yeah. Um, so you know, one of the other things that happened this week? You know it with the ups and downs with the stomach in my throat, The network has been pivotal in the in the in the whole dive. So I've been reaching out to my network, getting some good feedback on some things we've been doing in this whole concept of where we're going with this conversation, but also of the platform of podcasting. And I reached out to a friend of mine, has an ad agency, and he actually reached out to me, and it was just really good timing. And and, uh and we were talking. He's like, I need you tomorrow. I need you to work for me tomorrow. We have this, that and the other that we can. D'oh. So I'm very grateful to continue to reach out to others and continue to have conversations with others because this helps more than anything else. When you can share something in share space with people, it's it's just really cool.

spk_1:   15:54
You're right on. Yeah.

spk_0:   15:57
Hey, our last conversation. I want to get back into authenticity and really figuring out who we are because this whole process of diving is about going into your authentic self and one of the things we need to talk about his identity. Because identity is tied very tightly to your job because you spend a lot of time there, it's gonna be time to work on a new identity. And there's a lot of work that can be done to help with that. Did you have a transition of identity when you transitioned into your new role?

spk_1:   16:32
Oh, my God, my whole The last 30 years of my life have been a transition of identity, and that's a whole separate conversation. But in essence, I I left my, you know, finance guy, money manager identity, um, which I was never fully comfortable with, Um, staying. I was a stockbroker when someone asked me what I did. Ah. Then I became a filmmaker quote, you know, even though I was a student and then I was a p A, you know, sort of low man on the totem pole. Uh, then I became a screenwriter cause I was writing a screenplay, which was very, very pad. Uh, and then I became a magazine. A publisher. Ah, because I work for a magazine for a while and then became a publisher in this company and the and eventually launched a magazine and then finally became an artist and, frankly, the title that I most enjoy both saying and and embodying his artist because I think that's that's who I am in my DNA. But there's been these constant, uh, constant pivots, and I've even had some friends. You say, like, Dude, wait, you're a filmmaker now, like, well, you know you because you what? What? You know, you're kind of you're kind of faking it. You're you're calling yourself this, but you're not really that mean I'm like, Well, I'm trying to be that So it's been a little bit of a delicate thing and a little bit of an ego. Um, there's been some delicate delicacy are or fragility around my ego because I I want to be something desperately. I want to be a filmmaker. So I call myself a filmmaker even before I've made a film. Or, you know, I'm getting paid handsome, lead him to make films, but I'm just saying it, man. I'm just putting him and putting my marker down because that's the goal line. Whether that's legitimate or not, I really don't know. But I've always kind of felt that or I should say, I now feel that after doing this all these years and sort of re inventing myself repeatedly that you say who you want to be and you say it with conviction and you mean it. You know, if if you're pivoting to being a content creator, um, and creative, Then when someone asked you tomorrow, what do you do on a create content? You know, I got a podcast and ah, I'm a writer and all these things were true. I mean, are you getting paid for them? You know, that's the thing, States the question. What do you do? Is code language for how do you get paid? Um, as opposed to, you know, what do you do? What do you into? What makes you happy? What lights you up? So

spk_0:   19:18
that's so that's so key. It were programmed for that.

spk_1:   19:21
We are background for that, and it spit

spk_0:   19:23
in your identity. True, it is true, but back to your identity and being called a filmmaker. What did you think that someone was gonna call you? out or were you calling yourself

spk_1:   19:34
out? Well, the problem or the sort of the problem with that with that construct is that I say I'm a filmmaker. What films have you made? Yeah, well, I bring coffee to Donald Sutherland on the move that he makes. And so that makes I'm allowed to say filmmaker, Right? So you know it when you're when you're just kind of you're faking it till you make it. Um, yeah, You gotta just thread that needle. However you threat it. But I just think that if you know, say what you want to be, if that's what you really want to be say that's what you are, and then be it live it until you, you know, you embody it. And I actually I've done that, you know? And I've done that toe where I called myself the magazine publisher. And then I actually launched a magazine, you know, like, call myself an artist and eventually here, you know, here I am shows in this in that so there is something to be said for it. But the the other part of the conversation is this idea of identity, and you know whether that's like who you really are in your heart or what your paycheck is. Who pays your your check, And I I That's a difficult one for many people to to distinguish between,

spk_0:   20:48
but with everyone, your pivots. Did you have second thoughts? Did you say, What am I doing?

spk_1:   20:55
Um, I certainly had my first pivot. I had no second thoughts. Ah, I knew I wanted to be an artist. I didn't want to stop. That was that was a very clean, binary choice. And I was thrilled to make it when I started. Well, I we may have spoken about this already, but when I wrote my first screenplay and it was reviewed by a very qualified screenwriter and producer and until who told me in no uncertain terms, this is terrible. The, uh, the conversation I had internally was Okay, so I'm terrible at my dream for riel. How do I get a new dream? And how do I now I have to I can no longer really identify. Really. I'm terrible at this than I can't go around telling people that I'm this, um And that was a real blow. And that was second thoughts. Is not necessarily the the term, but enormous self doubt and disappointment and frustration and fear that, Jeez, I need to rethink this because I've been sort of aiming my, you know, aiming at this target of being a filmmaker for for several years now. So at that point, I had to kind of take a step back in which I did. Ah, and you no got a job to pay the bills working at a magazine, and eventually things took care of themselves. But yeah, it's there's blows, man.

spk_0:   22:20
You said you had Ah, well reviewed writer give you like a shitty review. Did you have other people that you shared it with the Do you have people that were sheltering you from reality Was a really bad work? Or was it just Were they being nice?

spk_1:   22:35
No, I didn't really share this thing. I just sat down. I I'm again. For better or for worse. My way of doing life is that I just sit down and do it without any without instruction, without without doing my research. Err, you know a whole lot of homework. I'm like, how hard can it be to write a great screenplay? I'll just sit down and write. When I read a couple books, I read a bunch of screenplays to sort of get the rhythm and the structural sort of sensibility. But and then I sat down and I wrote it, and, um, I didn't show it to a whole lot of people. A shoot showed to a few people. But this guy, I knew this guy and, you know, it's like if you show Quentin Tarantino you're scoring play and he says, It's terrible, Dude, um that, you know, that's a pretty valuable data point and and I go back to driving Kiefer Sutherland. Yeah, I really I really value this guy's opinion, so I don't say that with any kind of irony or anything. I mean, it really was terrible, Um, and so at that point, there's choices to make. But I don't want to get off in the weeds here. I think Jordan, I just think it's important to reiterate that, um, that your identity is what you say it is, and it's what you are working on and what you want to be. It's not necessarily what you get paid to be because we're not getting paid to do this and and and yet you know, we're content creators. You asked me, You know, this is, but for me, this is an art project. I mean, this is part of my art. I'm a multi media artist. This is one just interesting, wonderful project that I'm doing of number of them. So you know, it's part of it's part of who I am. It's

spk_0:   24:16
legitimate. It's true. It is absolutely true. That's a great mindset because our goal is to great great content and and that's what the goal is. And I can put the the shingle on the door that were content creators. And when I casually mentioned that I'm doing this, I have a studio I'm doing. Ah, we're putting our voice to this. I get asked. That's the first question. It's the program question. Oh, how do you make money at that? And then it's almost like, Ah, a sarcastic Oh, that's how you're gonna make money. And that's so missing the point because you and I stated right at the top. Our goal is to have a community in a voice and Linda voice to people who are going through these very deep transitions working through it, having a conversation about it and sharing it with others. I think the best part of creating an identity expressing an identity ah, transitioning into a new identity is to share it with people. Hopefully, when it's shared with them, it will be shared without judgment and just acceptance. That word transition, right, man, that has a whole new meaning in this. Uh, he she they world. Um and I'll accept it. I'm transitioning. You're transitioning. I hope we're always transitioning to a better one of us. Every

spk_1:   25:51
day. I want to share another another follow up epilogue to the filmmaker Dream Story, and that is this. So I kind of flamed out in l. A. And, um, and I ended up moving to Colorado, where I landed this cool, cool gig at him at a bike racing magazine. I got a gig there in sales selling advertising, and my filmmaker Dream was still alive. I was working on a second screenplay, um, and that went nowhere. But here's the thing. About five years into that magazine gig, the magazine was was contacted by UNQ Able Television Network and they wanted to make a television show and I ended up producing and directing that television show. Still remember? Yes. And so the point about that is is that, um I called back home the day that that that deal was done was inked and that I was going to officially make a show, was gonna be in 18 million homes, and I was gonna be the director and so forth and so on. I called back home and I talked to a family member, and I said, with incredible enthusiasm and great pride and this sense of like finally at last, can you believe it? I'm gonna make I'm going to be a filmmaker. I said, I'm gonna make a TV show, and I can't believe it. And I'm so stoked. What do you think? First question. How much you gonna make it? It was

spk_0:   27:23
he in 100 million.

spk_1:   27:25
Um ah. And I didn't even answer the question. The answer was zero. I mean, I was they were paying for the, you know, they were They were gonna cover the cost of the production and put it on TV. But But it was the point I'm making to the listeners is it was so sad for me. to hear that answer was such the wrong answer. There was no support in it. There was no acknowledgement or connection to my my, my heart, my enthusiasm, the realization of a dream. The really the real, the real, like essence of who am I and what do I do and what do I want to be? None of that. And so there are going to be people, inevitably, that don't approve or understand your pivot and don't understand your swan dive and will never and will only use the metric of what do you make or what your job title or whatever in measuring who you are and what you do and what your value is. That conversation ended abruptly, I said, basically like, uh Okay, well, it's been nice catching up, and that was it. But everyone needs to understand that that there are gonna be people out there that just don't get it. And that's okay. You know, that's okay. Doesn't mean they don't love you or want the best for you, but they will absolutely not get it. And there are far too many people for whom money is the only metric of success. And, uh, identity.

spk_0:   28:52
I think there's gonna be a lot of judgment. I know there's gonna be a lot of judgment. Ah, and I'm prepared for that. I really appreciate that conversation about what happened to you when you achieved your dream and it was met with. Well, how much is it gonna put in the bag? Because I'm here in that, You know, I we've been kind of trial ballooning some of these conversation we've been having and sending it. I've been sending it to some people who I respect their opinion. And there's been some positive feedback. There is a voice. And if if if, at the very least we satisfy the voice and I I'm I'm satisfied I'm satisfied to contribute to this conversation. So more power to it. We're going to be reaching out to others. Do I know you have some folks around you that you've talked to? We're gonna set up some conversations with other people to hear other perspectives because I think it's important to hear all kinds of different points of view of how people got to a certain position because for me, I could go back three years. This was three years in the making three years in the making to get to this point full three years, and I know that others have similar stories. I know Costa Rica is filled with a lot of expats that have made that leap. That's an interesting thing for you. You know, you're you're raising your kids down there. They're getting an education down there. It's amazing a leap for you to do that with your family, and I'm sure that took a lot of courage for you to do that.

spk_1:   30:27
Well, it was a dream to live abroad for a year, and we did that with our Children. They're young enough to where it really didn't matter, was not too disruptive. My career is portable as an author and as an artist. And, ah, and what what was supposed to be a year, you know, very quickly proved to be the right choice for longer. So we're just sort of on this Ah, open ended adventure. Ah, and we'll see where it goes. But it feels wonderful and you are absolutely right. There are many, many people here who have taken a very hard pivot in their lives to be closer to nature, to be among people who are really chasing joy and physical fitness. An adventure. Um, and there's a very sophisticated cohort of folks here that you know from all over the world. And it is just, Ah, it's just a fascinating, fascinating, um, place to meet people, anyone that I meet here. I'm very interested in knowing how they got here. What they're pivot point was where they come from. How on earth did they find Playa Grande? A Costa Rica, which is in the middle of nowhere? So, yeah, man, it's It's a very wonderful thing when you, as I said in our last episode, when you start to recognize ah kind of brotherhood and sisterhood of folks that have, ah, have taken Cem taking matters into their own hands and done something bold and brash and big. Ah, it it makes for good Company makes for good, good dinner parties. It makes for good conversation. It makes for good friends. So it's it's a it's a beautiful spot to be in its one where people have really taken ownership and, uh, and and that's what What everyone that's listening here is is working on, too,

spk_0:   32:12
and you ask everyone how much they made. That's really nice to

spk_1:   32:15
exact. I lied. What I always lead with that we've always lead with. What do you do? And by that I mean, how much do you make?

spk_0:   32:23
How much do you have in the bank? Can you just tell me right now? Because let's

spk_1:   32:26
start with that.

spk_0:   32:27
Yeah, let's start with that. Start with Stu's blogger at Stuart at Stewart sheldon dot com. That's a good place to start. Stuart. You've been having some Ah, great voice out there for quite some time. I love what you've done with that. So Stewart at Stewart sheldon dot com My email address is Ron Rothberg Comcast dot net. We will be doing these episodes, and I feel like we have our first season. We're working on our first season. Episode two is ah, Season two is up for renewal. This is another addition of Swan dive. We hope. See back here soon, please