Dead Men Walking Podcast
Exploring theology, culture, and politics within a biblical and reformed worldview. Welcome to the Dead Men Walking Podcast.
Dead Men Walking Podcast
Christian Ethics in the Wild West of Cryptocurrency
What happens when Reformed Christians enter the wild west of cryptocurrency? This episode brings together Jordan Bush, director of Thank God for Bitcoin, and Chance Summers, creator of the 1689 meme coin, for a fascinating exploration of Christian ethics in digital finance.
The conversation quickly moves beyond surface-level arguments to probe deeper questions: Does Bitcoin represent a more ethical form of money than meme coins? Can Christians participate in cryptocurrency without compromising biblical principles? When does risk-taking cross the line from wise stewardship to foolish speculation?
Jordan articulates concerns about meme coins, suggesting they operate as "mini Federal Reserves" that can be manipulated by creators. He questions whether Christians should participate in systems that potentially enable some to profit at others' expense. His memorable comment that "Judas would make a meme coin" encapsulates his skepticism about the ethics of creating tokens with no inherent value.
Chance offers a compelling counternarrative, describing how 1689 coin evolved from a joke into a community-building project with growing utility. He argues that transparency about risks combined with community safeguards creates an ethical framework for Christian participation. His optimistic vision suggests believers should redeem financial spaces rather than abandon them to non-believers.
Whether you're a cryptocurrency enthusiast, a Christian wrestling with financial ethics, or simply curious about how faith intersects with modern finance, this conversation offers valuable insights without easy answers. Listen in and join the ongoing dialogue about how believers can navigate the digital economy with wisdom and integrity.
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Yo, it's Deadman walkin', steppin' to the light. Greg Moore on the mic. Keep the truth in sight. Theology politics doctrine is tight.
Speaker 3:Reform on sharp cuttin' wrong from the right. Current events with a biblical lens, where the word don't bend and the truth defends.
Speaker 2:Deadman walkin'. We were lost in sin, but grace broke chains. Now the journey begins. Yo yo yo. Welcome everyone to the live stream. Welcome to the walking podcast. As always, you can find out more about us at dmwpodcastcom Coming to you on a special live stream.
Speaker 2:Usually we pre-record, but this week we're doing it live, as we say. Guys, thanks for sharing with a friend, thanks for liking and commenting and all the different things that you do to help us grow. We do appreciate it Got two friends here. I want to say up front, full disclosure. We're going to be talking about Bitcoin and 1689 coin and meme coins and cryptocurrency and all those things. Is it biblical? Is it Christian? What, what? What are we doing here in this, uh, 2025, as believers? Um, and I we're. We're probably gonna have some disagreements here, but I do want to keep it friendly. Um, everyone who's watching or listening, um, feel free to comment. We're going to get to maybe questions and answers uh, after, but full disclosure.
Speaker 2:I've had uh, both had both Jordan Bush and Chance Summers on the podcast. Before I call them both friends. In fact, I think both of them have sponsored the podcast in some way or another in years past, so this is fun, but I think we have some disagreements between them. And I said you guys just got to come online and chop it up and we'll hopefully create some good content for the people following and listening. But we do have Chance Summers is the owner of 1689 Cigars, majority owner of the 1689 coin, which will be of much discussion tonight, and then also Jordan Bush, director of Thank God for Bitcoin, author of the gospel according to Bitcoin 21 meditations, and I know Chance wanted to get into that book a little bit as well too.
Speaker 2:So maybe we'll hit it all. But, like I said, this is informal, not really debate, but I do want to give you guys each a chance to kind of tell the people who you are, what you kind of represent and maybe what you want to kind of cover on this live stream, just for those watching. We're going to try to keep it to 60 minutes. I don't want to go too much longer than that. If we finish up before that, that's fine too. But we're going to start with Jordan and then we'll move to Chance. Jordan just give us a little I don't know a couple minute intro for us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel like a mosquito in the nudist colony, right, that's kind of the situation I find myself in.
Speaker 3:There's so much we could talk about in only my name is Jordan Bush.
Speaker 3:I was a pastor and church pointing missionary living in Montevideo, uruguay, for about seven years and then, near the end of our time there, I ended up getting into Bitcoin and basically just saw the ways and the applications of Bitcoin and all kinds of surprising, just ways in terms of helping just people who've had their currency debased be able to save in a way that governments can't take away, just to help nonprofit organizations be able to just again do the same thing saving money framework that a lot of people, including a lot of people who don't care at all about Jesus, they look at Bitcoin and they look at the crypto space and they see something very different than what I see and what I think Christians ought to see, and so that's kind of where I'm coming at is you know there's you can look at some of the space and just think it's.
Speaker 3:You know a lot of fun and games and, uh, you know potential to to get rich quickly, and this is what a lot of people associate with the space more broadly. Uh, there's just a lot more going on, and so that's kind of what I, that's kind of why I reached out and thought it was worth the time to talk.
Speaker 2:So okay, chance, how about you Give us a little info, give us a little origin story or a little bit about what we're talking about tonight?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think we had this conversation come up because I got some screenshots of a post that you did about Judas would make a meme coin, and then I thought that would be hilarious to actually talk about this. And full disclosure. You know, jordan's my friend as long as he's not related to George Bush. I think I made that in a comment section. Friend as long as he's not related to George Bush, I think I made that in a comment section. And so I was sitting in the cigar lounge and I thought, you know, I've been talking about doing a meme coin for months with my buddies and I was like, hey, we'll just do it. So we sent it, launched it, it gained some traction, and then the ethics debate of are meme coins moral? Is Bitcoin pure and meme coins not? And things of that nature started sprouting, which I didn't mean the start of brothers war, but apparently, uh, that is what has transpired over the last couple weeks. So there's an origin story okay, first question for chance.
Speaker 2:I kind of want to know what. What are we talking about when we say 1689 coin? What is a meme coin? For those who might not know? Um, and, and then maybe, maybe we just get right to it and go well, this is why I'm doing it and this is why I think it falls within good Christian principles or biblical principles.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So a meme coin's digital art has no essential value besides what the community brings to it, and so there is no utility for typical meme coins at the start of them. And then, as they grow and they get a backing, they move into different utilities, such as Doge or Shiba Inu. They can be used as a tipping system, things of that nature. There's more things you can do with Doge than you can with Shiba. And then you have Pepe, you have all these other larger coins that grow to billion dollar market caps.
Speaker 1:That started off as meme coins and then they become a community and a system by which people can use for monetary uh purchases, things of that nature. So 1689 coin is right now in considering of art. It's not a mona lisa like doge would be, it's more of like grandma's finger painting. And as it grows and people see, hey, this is actually a beautiful project, then people will buy in, be interested in it and they enter into the community and then eventually there'll be utility uh that is implemented into the coin okay, and what do you mean by utility?
Speaker 2:just for those who might not know?
Speaker 1:yeah, so utility would be simplistic, like we just implemented a thing on our back end for some of our online businesses between different guys that are in the 1689 coin chat, where they can accept 1689 coin as a payment.
Speaker 1:Obviously, when somebody accepts 1689 coin, they have to bring it to the blockchain, sell it and then convert it to USDA or convert it to Bitcoin or convert it to XRP whatever whatever coin that you're using at that point or you can throw it into like cryptocom and you can convert it to Bitcoin or convert it to XRP, whatever coin that you're using at that point or you can throw it into cryptocom and you can convert it to cash and put it on your debit card. So there's a lot of uses for meme coins. There's a lot of money in meme coins. So Jordan is not without cause to say that people do think it's a get-rich-quick scheme and in some instances, like the Hawk2A coin, there was just one that was called the Worthless coin that just went on, that had a rug pull. So there are a lot of dangers. There's a lot of risk with meme coins and you can whatever you invest in a meme coin, you definitely Oops.
Speaker 2:Oh, I think you threw, it.
Speaker 1:It is super high. Can you hear me now?
Speaker 2:We lost you for about the last 10, 15 seconds. There You're getting a little grainy. I'm not sure what's going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I was just saying that meme coins are like volcanoes they can erupt and be great or they can just stay dormant and never do anything.
Speaker 2:Okay. So, Jordan, from your comment that says you know Judas would probably make a meme coin, it sounds to me like you're not a fan uh. Bitcoin but not a fan of maybe something like this. So where are you coming from on this subject? Yeah, so with.
Speaker 3:I do want to talk about that specific comment. So I had seen and I've been thinking about uh 1689 coin. It did inspire the thought Uh, but I what I was not trying to say is that chance is Judas, okay, like, what I'm saying is Jude. Like the whole point of meme coins, the reason they exist is to create pump and dump opportunities to make lots of money very quickly with no effort. That's why these things were created in the first place. Again, the vast majority of there's there's hundreds of thousands of them and the vast majority of them are worth nothing. They start out, they have a pump and then they have a crash and a very small group of the people who own the coin get fabulously wealthy. The rest of them are left holding the bag full of something that's worthless. So, again, it's just the type of thing that Judas would do. We know Judas was stealing from the common purse, so Judas was totally up for using his position as somebody who had an advantage over the other people whose money he had to uh, to take advantage of it. And so I've just was simply saying that this is the exact type of thing that Judas would do. That does not mean that that is that everyone who creates a, an alt coin, is equally desiring to absolutely rug, uh, anyone who's participating in and I don't attribute to the fact that chance or anybody else in this project uh, is trying to fully rug anybody. So that might hopefully, you know, calm some of the, I don't know, some of the disagreement, but like, I don't think that's necessarily the case at all. I think the thing that I would want to ask is I mean, and the thing that I just have observed, as somebody who is a Facebook friend of chance and I just see this, you know, see, I've seen the, the, the project, if we can call it that, like develop over the last few weeks has just been kind of like, what is the motivation for the, for the project? Because that seems to have like evolved in some way, and maybe it hasn't evolved, and that's just a function of. You know, you can only talk about certain things at certain times.
Speaker 3:So, kind of I just want to maybe just that'd be the most helpful place, like what is, what is the or what is was and is the desire for the token, because initially, the thing, you know, you came out and said, hey, this thing has no value. You know, feel free, just to know that it's super volatile. You could, you know you could lose everything you put your money in. And then there's been more talked about where now we're going to give it utility by putting it into the ecosystem, we're going to let you pay on our website, we're going to let you pay on this conference, and so just the way that it's being talked about, it seems to be moving from hey, this is totally a joke that has no value whatsoever, this is a scam, to now there is this utility function that is talked about seemingly with a desire to encourage more participation in it, and so that's kind of where I start to get more uncomfortable, especially given some of the things that are being said, where, again, some of these are memes and this is, I would imagine, just jokes.
Speaker 3:But for people who are just coming across these things I talk with people all the time who have no concept and no understanding of cryptocurrencies. They don't know why one is more valuable than the other it all just seems like pretty arbitrary. And so when they see something like I believe it was 1689 coin account, which apparently I think you said you don't actually control the account, but somebody posted it, basically said that 1689 coin is better than Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a boomer coin. It's an old coin. Don't deal with that boomer thing. Buy into, get on the ground floor of this. The next new thing Again, obviously there are people in your circles who fully understand and appreciate that you're joking, I think, but then there's other people who just don't know, and so they're, you know, tempted to maybe believe something like that.
Speaker 3:And so, again, it's the people who are potentially going to get rugged. And even if you're not intending that and you wouldn't do that which I'm again not attributing you're, you're having a desire to do that or saying that you would do that, but that is something that is certainly there and so, yeah, that's kind of. So maybe just answer that question Like what? Is this something that, in your mind, has evolved over time, the purpose of it, or has this been something that you've kind of wanted to from the very beginning? You said thought we could implement into our ecosystem?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm guessing you're familiar with meme coins, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, are you talking to me or Greg? Yeah, to you, jordan.
Speaker 1:And so the meme coin can be that of a mosquito or it can have longevity, and so the community is what drives a meme coin. So when you have 50, 60 guys messaging you saying, hey, I want to implement this somehow in my business or I want to implement this somehow in this, you don't put out the fire. You let them do what they want to do. It's a natural progression, just like Bitcoin. Natural progression of Bitcoin is growing to be utility things of that nature. And then you say things like this is a previous conversation we had earlier today that Bitcoin can't be manipulated by one person. But there are instances where people have pulled 5,000 Bitcoin, manipulated the market down to.
Speaker 1:I think it was like 63K and then it went down to 58K and then they bought in from that same wallet at that 58K to go back up. So the Bitcoin and the meme coin market can be manipulated, but it's at a very mass scale, and when you think of Bitcoin, it's controlled by 92,. 92% of Bitcoin is controlled by 10 wallets or 10 companies I, I don't know what that is. I think it's 10 companies and so like there's an 8% that owns Bitcoin, and then if you don't think those 10% can manipulate the coin, you're absolutely ludicrous, like you're crazy. So I think the argument is do you manipulate it at a small amount or a large amount? And it can it be done? Is is yes, both meme coin and Bitcoin can in some sense be manipulated, and so a lot of people say, hey, a meme coin can be manipulated. If I were to pull out what I had in there, it would tank the coin. So I don't see the difference in crypto.
Speaker 1:Besides, I did read some of your works where you're saying that Bitcoin is produced by energy. It has a cap. There are certain things that there's actually working on it, but when you have a project like this, there's people that are working on this. They're building website, they're building out bots, they're building out things that are very good for the ecosystem. 1689 coin. So people are actually working and I don't think you can determine value because a coin is mined and uses energy. I think it's by what you labor with.
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah. So my pushback on that would be the problem with this particular coin and this applies to all coins basically is that there is a monopoly on the creation of the supply. You are the only person who can create, who is able to create new units of this currency. So you had a monopoly on this. You created 1689 coin with, I believe, a billion coin cap, with, I believe, a billion coin cap. I think you had to. Based on my understanding of Moonshot, the platform in which you build it, you had to give them like 11 point some odd percent of the tokens and they provided liquidity into the ecosystem. As far as I can tell, do you have your coins, your 23.8% or whatever? Do you have those coins in like a cold, like a, like cold wallet or something, or like a in your own wallet there? It's not actually in the. It's not actually liquid in the in the marketplace. Is that correct?
Speaker 1:no, so I I bought in with, with the exact same amount that moonshot entered in with okay so I do have the liquidity in there and I do have the coins mixed up on different wallets just for security purposes, just just in case something gets compromised.
Speaker 3:Sure, so you, but you do. You do still own 23.8% of the. That's kind of where you're at.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, yeah. So I guess the question I mean the reason why I asked this question, why I think it matters, is because the the the thing that I saw in the very beginning that really concerned me was I and I can share my screen. Is that do you me? Was I can share my screen. Am I allowed to share my screen? Is that possible?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can figure it out.
Speaker 3:Let me see if I can do it here. I'll try it here. Oh, let's see, that's not going to do it. All right, it doesn't look like I can do it. Anyhow, there's one. I can just pull it up and look at it and then describe it to you. Just pull it up and look at it and then describe it to you and I can post it later if need be, if anybody doubts me. But so this is on July 13th.
Speaker 3:You have a picture of John Calvin riding a bull looking at an image of 1689 coin, and it says this I think we are all bullish on 1689 coin. Imagine that by next month we have hit our million dollar market cap and you drop a fat offering in the church plate. And so when I first saw this this is the reason that I just started to be more vocal about this issue I hadn't mentioned anything about it. Again, these projects are a dime a dozen, but the fact that this was a project that seemed to be targeted at Reformed Baptists or people who are familiar with the 1689 confession, like that, was one thing. I was like I don't know, I don't like this. But then when you, when you start to see when in you know, when you're describing like a future goal of reaching a market of a million dollar market cap like there's, you're putting numbers on this and then talking about desiring to reach that point so that either you or someone could then sell the token and withdraw liquidity and then put that in with the justification of putting in the offering plate. It just demonstrates that there's thought being had about an exit and a withdrawal of liquidity that can only come from other people who hold the tokens. So this is not like it's a zero sum game in the altcoin world. So in order for some to win, others have to lose because at the end of the day, nobody actually wants this token, nobody actually values this token. That's just the reality of these things. So when I saw that, I started just to. I mean, that's where I started to get more concerned, because that's a very different story and talking about an exit and talking about an exit plan, that's a very different thing than saying, hey, we're just going to start this as a joke and then we're going to implement this into our ecosystem and so it's actually going to have a purpose. We have a long vision here, rather than just a quick like pump and dump. Now, when I see this, this and I can, I can and you can feel free to describe whether or not you think this is accurate.
Speaker 3:My understanding like when I think about your involvement in this project. Here's what I don't think. I don't think you for a moment want to actually rug, pull your friends and other people. I don't think you want to do that. I think your hope was to get this thing big enough where you could withdraw and some of these, you could sell some of your tokens and make money and it wouldn't actually affect the life of the whole project. Because that's why a lot of people get into these things they want to make some money.
Speaker 3:And again, there's a place for making money. I don't think there's anything. There's nothing illegitimate about making money at all, but in this kind of a system like this is a very different system than if I provide you, if I were to grow a, you know, if I were to provide a service, if I were to start a company, and then I create stock shares in my company and I sell them to you. I'm actually selling you shares of something that actually exists and something that actually is a business. It's something that has some oversight to it.
Speaker 3:If it's stocks on the, on the, uh, on the, you know, whatever it is, nasdaq or whatever thing you want to have, the danger with with alt coins and mean coins is that there's, there's almost no oversight preventing people from just being able to rug and take money from from people. Uh, and there, you know, there, there's just not, it's, there's not anything actually of value other than the thing that's, you know, the, the fact that there's movement in and out of the of the ecosystem, and so, again, I think there's, I think there's re, there's, there's a reasonable, it would be reasonable for people to be skeptic, to be what's the word. I'm trying to go skeptical, skeptical and to to reconsider, to think about. Wait a second, he's already talking about exiting. Is he trying to rug us? I don't think that's what you're actually trying to do, but I would forgive people who, not knowing you, would think that.
Speaker 2:Chance. What do you think about that?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean that's one post, it's a lot of reading into it and I could see your perspective. You know we have a group of guys. Like you said, nobody wants the coin. I would say that's not true. There are people who are buying the coin and they want the coin, and so there is a group of guys that do that.
Speaker 1:And so you know, obviously, before we had this conversation, I started looking up certain things. And so you know, obviously, before we had this conversation, I started looking up certain things. You know, when we have the Bitcoin and then you have 1689 coin and you make like for me. When I see you know a book written the gospel according to Bitcoin, I think of like he's trying to pull from MacArthur's section, you know, going towards the MacArthurite guys and then using Bitcoin to equivalent to the gospel, there's some red flags for me. When I see those things, I think, oh, that's borderline blast of me. When I think about that I would have to read the book to see whether, if it's not, I did a synopsis. I got the the first, I think, four devotionals for free. So I could do.
Speaker 1:I could do the. I could be very critical to you and have no charity and say, wow, dude, that's completely retarded. Or I could say I see what he's trying to do. There there's scarcity, so like limited atonement can apply. I can see what you're trying to do. I don't know if you did that, but but you know, I'm just, I'm just kind of like throwing that out there because I have no idea.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's a fair pushback in terms of like, at least on the surface. Again, this book is designed. So we wrote this book, that book in particular, just to outline what it is, we basically so Thank God, for Bitcoin is the other book that we wrote, which is largely just a repackaging and like a reframing of Gary work, gary North's book, honest money. So the vast majority of the book we just talk about like, what is money? Why does that matter? And then the last two chapters of the book we just talk about how, basically, bitcoin basically takes all of those principles that something like gold or something like silver, all these principles that make good money, and the Bitcoin basically is it just builds on those things, took all of those things and packaged them in a, in a digital form, and does that. So again, the goal was to help Christians, a broad Christian audience, understand why these things. You know what Bitcoin is and what it's trying to do. We don't. We don't do anything in terms of talking about you should go buy this. We just this is basically like informational. This is what it does. This is why that matters.
Speaker 3:Now, at the same time, there's a bunch of Christians in this community, in the in the Bitcoin world, and many of them desperately want to share the gospel with people who are in the Bitcoin world, because there's people in the Bitcoin world who value Bitcoin and who who you know, rekha and I mean in many cases they unhealthily value Bitcoin. They look at Bitcoin and they look at how it's changed their lives. They look at how all these different properties that are different from fiat currency and much better than fiat currency, and they're tempted to attribute far too much value to this otherwise good tool. And so this book the Gospel According to Bitcoin was designed to basically do what Jesus does with money, which is. He talks about it a lot, but his point in talking about it is to point to people to the thing that is far more valuable than the money itself. He basically says money exists in order to point to the thing that is of ultimate value, which is me, according to Jesus, and which is his father. So one example of one of the, and so that's what this book does. And so one of the chapters of this book, just to give you an idea when I first got into Bitcoin, it talks about this. The chapter does when I first got into Bitcoin, I tried to send a small amount of Bitcoin a couple hundred dollars.
Speaker 3:I included a very small fee in order to incentivize the miners to include that transaction in the next block. I did not include enough of a fee in order to do so, and so my transaction got lost and basically, just, it didn't go through. So a couple of weeks later, I checked my wallet. It hadn't gone through, and so I thought to myself oh no, I broke Bitcoin, and so I had the privilege of being able to reach out to one of my buddies who's one of the most trusted people in the industry. I asked him what had happened and he said oh, he's like you just need to do a child pays for parent transaction. He's like that's all you need to do. So, basically, you send an identical transaction from the same wallet to the same wallet, you include just a little bit more of a fee, and that second transaction will knock the first transaction through and your money will get to where you want it to go. So I did it, it worked, and then I stopped being a missionary, being a pastor in Uruguay, and I thought to myself holy cow, that is the same logic of the gospel, because God sends mankind into the world, we fall short of the goal that he had, we fall short of the glory of God.
Speaker 3:And then how does God resolve this? He sends the last Adam to go into the world and he doesn't fall short. He actually fulfills all righteousness and because he makes it to the transaction, he actually fulfills the transaction for which God sends him. We're able to benefit as well, we go through those of us who put our faith in Christ. So, again, the point of the book is just to be an apologetic resource and if you read it, you like, that will be painfully obvious, uh, much to the chagrin of many unbelievers who will, um, unbelieving bitcoiners who will pick up the book thinking it's something different, and then find that they're, uh, having the gospel shared with them. So, uh, so that's again. I get the confusion that people have had. You're not the first person to to make that point. Uh, that's, that's what it is and why it's got that name.
Speaker 1:So let me.
Speaker 2:Oh, go ahead Chance.
Speaker 1:No, no, you go ahead.
Speaker 2:I was going to circle back to something we started at the beginning of the stream, but if you wanted to respond to that, go ahead.
Speaker 1:No, I mean that. I think that's the way that you should look at his book in. In Christian make a mean coin. I do think there is a certain amount of like scrutiny that's pointed at me that the community that I I run with was like that guy's an idiot and and they probably all still still think that. And I'm gonna be honest, you know so. So the the understanding of you know what. What if in 10 years, we started the 1689 coin project and then it continues to grow like an xrp project? Obviously we know it's on solana, it's not on a base block, like we haven't built it out? But what if we start building out something that is is great, good, beautiful, all those things that we want it to be, and then you sit back and you look like, all right, they built out an ecosystem. You talk about bitcoin being able to be transferred across, you know, foreign borders. 1689 coin can have the same value well, obviously not the same value as Bitcoin, but it can be transferred across borders, things of that nature as well. So I do think there is potential for 1689 coin to be very viable.
Speaker 1:At the beginning, yeah, it started off as a meme. I put Calvin on some kind of bull and said and that was all tongue in cheek-cheek, right and so the? And then I saw the community get behind. It's just like bitcoin. I mean, I was mining bitcoin in 2012. My, my wife corrupted a hard drive. I didn't have my code backed up and so
Speaker 1:there's four bitcoins, some uh some landfill somewhere, that in 100 years somebody's going to make some technology and they're going to go digital gold mining and find it. So I mean, I do see the viability of Bitcoin, I do see the blessing that Bitcoin can be, but I also can think that a meme coin can do that as well and it can grow. And I would say that the meme coin has grown completely organic. This has been nothing of my own. People made social medias before I even knew they had them. They were building a website before I even knew what was going on. And now you have a community of reformed Christian brothers and some are not reformed in the group, but there's a community of Christian brothers that are building out a meme token and you can go look at our chart, go look at our chart and go look at every other meme coin and you have a pump and dump. Our chart has done this. So you have the beginning stages. It dumps down and now it has gradually grown. It's exactly what what bitcoin did at the beginning. It just gradually grew because the community grew around it.
Speaker 1:Obviously, there's a difference between the market cap. There's a difference between. You know, there's 21 million Bitcoin and that's it. Uh, we can't make any more. I I guess we could if we wanted to go in on the back and on the coding side of it, but we're not going to make any more of 1689 coin, that's. That's the cap 1 billion. So you know there's a lot of questions that in my mind, have been answered. And then I would like to throw this at you, jordan Do you think Bitcoin is the purest form of money in the world right now?
Speaker 3:Man, it's such a I don't even know. Again, the question would be what is the standard by which we would even answer that kind of a question? So I don't even the purest type of money. I just I don't even know how to answer that, but, again, I guess. The question that I would have, though, is, I mean, number one. There are important things that differentiate Bitcoin from 1689 coin, right Like there's one, I mean effectively one person, unless you've shared this control or ownership of this thing with other people.
Speaker 1:Let me just jump in real quick for you. Okay, for transparency, one of my elders in my church holds a big portion of the folder or of my wallet for complete reason of control, like I could dump right now and I could make a thousand X of what I had, and so yeah, so there is legitimate walls that are put up so that the money can't just be liquidated.
Speaker 3:Great, and, again, that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying, I'm not equating Chase with some of the worst actors in this space. I hope this is clear. I'm not saying that, again, this is something you're desiring to do. What I do want to point out is it's something that is possible, right, it would be possible for either you or your elder, or I mean in this case, unless you're saying you don't have access to it. I don't have access to that wallet at all. So, yeah, so again, all I'm saying is it's at least possible, and that is something that is not possible with Bitcoin, just due to the fact that, again, the way that Bitcoin came, the way that Bitcoin enters the world, is through a process that's open. There was no pre-mine with Bitcoin the way that there was a pre-mine with 1689 coin and with every other coin that exists, so that this is that's a. That's just a fundamental difference. Again, you actually have to expend real energy in the form of mining or you have to, you know, buy it from somebody who's already done this process. So there is a control. There are controls that exist within Bitcoin to differentiate it in ways that are different than 1689 coin.
Speaker 3:The other thing that I wanted to point out and I, again, I just had to do my research and do a little more research on on Moonshot, which is the platform that you know you built the coin on, and again, part of you, the your stated justification for doing that was it was one of the easiest places to you know, start the coin up, which, again, I get that Like it there's, there's. It makes sense to want to do something that, especially if it's something in an ecosystem that you're not super familiar with, like you'd want to have an easier way to start this thing up. That makes sense to me. But one of the things that I, in doing some research and talking to actually I have other friends shout out to Ryan who basically are more familiar with the meme coin space and these kinds of things than I was. I just basically was like, hey, how does this work? And he just basically pointed out the. He just said this is just like a because of it's so, because it's so small, he's like, he's like this there's a.
Speaker 3:It's a really risky project to to put money into because, even if the project creators themselves are like the greatest people in the world, the fact that this project is open to anybody, for anybody to buy. It means that there is the possibility that, even independent of the creators doing anything nefarious you know your pastor does everything above board and whatever like there can be other people who come in and buy up you know tokens and then they can exit with the liquidity the existing liquidity that's in the coin. That then would require, in order for you know anybody else who holds tokens, they would have to put in more of their own money In this case, solana or whatever it is. They would have to put more of their own we'll call it real money or more real money. Whatever it is. They would have to put more currency into it in order to either get their own money out or, in the case of even the most charitable actors, to allow other people to get their money out. So here's one example of this. This has happened a bunch of times, but there was one crypto project I can't remember the name where this started to happen.
Speaker 3:The coin project creators themselves didn't rug people, but there's traders who look for projects like this. They look for projects to to, you know, to basically get in, buy a whole bunch of money, pump the price and then exit with as much liquidity as they can. And so this is what happened in the case of this coin and the the founders of the coin, felt awful because they were. They wanted to create an actual sustainable project. They, they want. They didn't want people to get ripped off. They wanted there to be an actual sustainable project. They, they want. They didn't want people to get ripped off. They wanted there to be an actual community and all these kinds of things.
Speaker 3:And yet, because it was able to be get, the system was able to be gamed and rugged by somebody who was not part of their community, who was an awful person. Uh, they, they kept getting rugged, and so the, the founders of the project, kept putting in more of their own money into the project and it kept getting rugged, and so, at the end of the day, they ended up losing millions and millions of dollars. And so, at the end of the day this is my concern is, again, I am not angry and do not begrudge chance. Anything like this is whatsoever. Uh, this my concern is for the name of Christ, you know, for the, for the name of Christ to be, you know to be affiliated with something that, even whether it's through malice or just weakness, is able to be gamed and could see people who don't understand this get rugged.
Speaker 3:Um, that's one thing. And then, on top of that, again, I, I just yeah, this, this prog uh product, and you know, whatever it is, this uh, the, the, the, the uh project, that's the word I'm looking for. The project, again, is just, is such where the, the motives of, of everyone involved are constantly put to a test. Uh, because the end game I just I don't understand. Like, what is the end game for this chance? Like, do you, when you see I believe you, you said you initially put in four grand, uh, is that true?
Speaker 1:yeah, so I I've about 12 grand into the coin now. Okay, that's, that's where I'm at cool.
Speaker 3:So so was your. Your goal is like put in four and you know, or 12, I guess, put in 12 and your goal is just kind of leave that in there forever in order to add in liquidity or, you know, create an ecosystem and then to be able to use, be used as currency to buy tickets to conferences or used on your websites and all that kind of stuff. Or is there at some point in the future where, if the project got big enough, you'd want to pull some liquidity out?
Speaker 1:So I mean, to be honest, the, the project's growth was pretty cool overnight. You know, I didn't really I didn't really realize it was going to be like that. So I had to obviously talk to the legal about certain things, I had to go through an extensive about that, and then what ends up happening is everybody started getting behind it. So I would say, a project ebbs and flows. It's organic. It's not one of those things just like bitcoin. It's been an organic project from from the beginning. So, as the project, I can't give any kind of specifics like, all right, if it grows of this, obviously it's going to be accepted at some conferences. Obviously, uh, here in the future, once I've built out the back end coding on certain website platforms, you're going to be able to spend it on cigars, things, things of that nature.
Speaker 1:So there will be utility implemented into the coin, and so longevity of a coin is determined by hype, community or utility. You don't want just hype and community. You want to have access to actually use your money. You don't want this to be locked up and you can't use it, and so there are many people that are in the signal chat that already trade this coin back and forth for actual, tangible products. So there is a utility there, but at the end of the day it's still just a meme coin that may sprout wings and have a larger and broader impact.
Speaker 1:And so we also have another guy I think it's Matthew, he's in our chat and he did a just a quick synopsis of if all of the reformed Christian world would get behind one coin whether it's meme coin, whether it's Bitcoin, whether it's whatever the impact on that monetarily would be so large that those who would try to rug it would be like a 10 to 5% rug every time that would get rugged, so people really wouldn't get hurt. Quote unquote, like you're saying. And then also, I think there's a difference between walking and going to the blackjack stand and understanding that you are going to play a hand and you have a potential to lose your money. We've never said you're going to triple, double, quadruple your money on this. So everybody that's in this project is complicit. They're grown men, grown women buying onto a project that they are complicit with, and so it's not like we're standing at them and holding them at gunpoint and say, if you don't do this, you die.
Speaker 1:So there's complicity there and there's been multiple people who have bought into the coin and then exited and have made money. There's been people who have bought into the coin and lost money and then the community has come around them and made them whole. So I would say that the Christian community and the ethics are there. It would take close to a million dollars to jump into the coin, for the coin to be rugged, like you're saying. But if somebody puts in a million dollars, everybody knows if they're going to rug us. If they're not a part of our group, they're not a part of the community, everybody's just going to pull on them and they get rugged. And so there are safeguards that are set up for the user, especially inside of our community, and we've taken care of our community, and so there's some differences there. Also, we're not Andrew Tate, we're not the pagans.
Speaker 1:You know, we're Christians and so you have ethics and morals. And if I were to just rug everybody, do you think all my other businesses would survive?
Speaker 3:A hundred percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. No, obviously not. Like that's yeah 100%, yeah 100%. No, obviously not.
Speaker 2:I obviously don't Go ahead. I was going to say very quickly too, just to keep it light you said you've got 1689 where you could go to conferences and cigars. If you can just get us bourbon, I think most Reformed Presbyterians and Baptists would. Just we'll abandon the dollar for that. That's all we really need conferences, cigars and bourbon, right, but I wanted to jump back to something earlier in the conversation. So it sounds like to me, jordan, you're really concerned about this because of, like, the risk or the lack of safeguards. Right, and I want to side with you on the Judas comment.
Speaker 2:I understand what you were trying to say there, because probably 95% of these type of coins are pump and dumps right, the co-host of this podcast. For the first two and a half years he was a. He's a day trader. He knows all about this. They pump and dump in penny stocks and under dollar stocks and right, and all these things. The only pushback I would give to that and tell me what you guys think about this is as a, as a Christian, aren't we supposed to have wisdom and discernment in any investment, any stewardship of our money? Shouldn't we go in with eyes wide open? When I invest in the market, I know people who have pumped and dumped Bitcoin on a smaller scale, right, if someone came to you and said I bought $20,000 worth of Bitcoin and then a week later it was worth 80 grand, so I sold it. I needed that 60,000. You'd go great job, right.
Speaker 2:So I'm kind of wondering. I don't know if I could place it all on. Just, it's very risky. Well, there's a lot of stuff that's starting my real estate business while having a six-figure job with full health insurance was risky. Everyone thought I was an idiot. You know what I mean. When my first kid was six months old oh, I'm going to go start a business, right. So it's like I don't know if risk can be the excuse. If, also, as Christians, we're called to go, hey, we gotta be discerning about where we're gonna put our money, and once we do, and if we lose it, that's on us, right. And I understand what you're saying, jordan. Make sure you go in with eyes wide open. I would just say, in chances defense, there, you go to the website and it's pretty clear like we're not promising anything. This is what we're trying to do Start a community. Maybe in the future it'll have utility. Be willing to lose money if it, if it goes upside down?
Speaker 3:Yeah. And so, again, there, there's no problem with risk. Like this is, again, we know, the parable of the, parable of the talents, where you have the unrighteous and you know you have the stewards, who, basically the guys who take the risk are the one who are, are the ones who are rewarded and commended, and the one who buries his talent is the one who is basically mocked. And so again. But at the same time, we want to recognize that not all risk is created equal, and so, again, there's things that go around yeah, like there's foolish risk, there's folly, and then there's obviously risk that is worth doing. And so the question is where do we draw the line?
Speaker 3:How do we differentiate between that and the case that I wanted to make from the beginning, and this is largely my, my, my pushback, uh is basically the question is the thing that the governing principle behind which we ought to be considering in, in, through which the filter through which we ought to be filtering all of these things, uh, is the great commandment. All right, it's. Does this love and honor God? And does this love and honor my neighbor? Now, my, to jump right to it, like I, like the, the, the prospect of creating something out of thin air, creating, creating a project out of thin air, and then, you know, basically selling these tokens that I, you know that just were created, I arbitrarily chose the amount of them, we put them out there and then the only way that I can actually benefit from this, from this, you know, the only way that I can benefit from this transaction is if I get money from, is if I win at the expense of somebody else, right?
Speaker 2:So the US dollar.
Speaker 3:Sure, sure, exactly which I think we both agree. We don't really like that. I would take Bitcoin over USD any day.
Speaker 3:Correct and so. But this is a great point, exactly so. What I'm not saying is that we shouldn't. Are we all hypocrites for using the dollar? Sure, okay, great. The point is, we have to use the dollar, we have to pay taxes in dollars, like this is something that we have to. We don't have to then create, basically, mini versions of the Federal Reserve, which is what altcoins are. You know, basically and this is where it comes out of Bitcoin being a differentiator. Because, again, and this is why I asked Chase in the beginning, why did 1689, why did you create 1689 coin? Because we know why Bitcoin was created. We know what motivated the creators At least we know their stated motivation and we can see, based on the choices that they made in how the monetary network works, the fact that even the creator, satoshi Nakamoto, didn't give himself a pre-mine.
Speaker 3:He didn't give himself the ability to unilaterally change rules about the project. Anyone who runs a Bitcoin node has the ability to vote and make decisions, so he purposely gave away the ability to basically be in a position to rug other people to act in a way that wasn't in line with the interest of the other people in the network. Again, we know that Bitcoin was created, basically on the Bitcoin Talk Forum, within the first couple of weeks. I believe the first few months was in February. Satoshi basically said the problem with the existing financial system is all of the trust that's required to make it work. And so, again, this is the problem you have to trust the government not to hyperinflate the currency, create a bunch of units while you're holding your currency units and thereby devalue them. There's all of this kind of trust that has to take place. All of those same problems that exist with the dollar are also true of 1689 coin, of every other coin that's out there, and so again. So the question is we know why Bitcoin is created. Bitcoin is created to be an alternate, parallel system that gets rid of a lot of the disadvantages that exist within the fiat system.
Speaker 3:The question is why do these other projects exist? If it's to be a utility, well then, okay, that's one thing, but again, that's kind of why I raised the issue. When we're immediately in the early days of this thing, raised the issue when we're immediately in the early days of this thing, talking about pulling money out already. That, just again, it doesn't inspire confidence, especially the type of confidence that's going to be required if you're going to try to get, if you're trying to get the project to a million dollar market cap.
Speaker 3:Because I mean, based on kind of what you said, the question is like, do you want it to get to a million dollar market cap or no? Because if it got to a million dollar market cap, you would attract a lot more attention from people who would be bad actors and be tempted to rug people, right? And so I just feel like, again, it's whether or not that's whether or not that's immoral I'm not trying to argue, it's immoral is. It seems like it's going to put you and other people who are in this project. It's going to put you guys in a weird situation with conflicting desires, based on your desire to you to not get rugged and the desire to not rug other people. Like it just seems like that's kind of the situation that is destined to happen, even in the best case, where this thing does become more popular and that kind of stuff. I just feel like it's putting you in a situation that that, uh, you know a Christian which I totally think you are like just wouldn't, wouldn't want to be in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, what's, what's your eschatology? I just want to ask that question real quick, oh man, this is, I'm, I'm, I'm, basically I haven't.
Speaker 3:this is one of these things I am, I'm like, sympathetic. I'm still haven on-mill and post-mill. It's on the roadmap for me just to go full hardcore and do the big deep dive through the Peter Lightheart two-volume revelation commentary and some other things. So yeah, I don't think you're going to find much help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that answered my question.
Speaker 3:Okay, cool.
Speaker 1:I'm very optimistic. On-mill, sure, I would say. Those who risk are those who are rewarded, and so a lot of times this is a major risk. You know, when I did this it was kind of tugging cheek and then it took a life of its own. And so now that it's taken a life of its own, I'm going to stand, you know, on my two feet and say here it is and this is where we're at. And so if it does hit a million market cap, you know some people will exit and some, if they do tithe, they will give um more money to their church and get on them.
Speaker 1:But when it comes to the devs I mean, that's technically what where we'd be called this coin is is the devs are going to stay and we're going to keep on building. And you know it's a conversation go back and laugh at and, uh, you know, you end up eating crow because we built out a really good project, you know. So that's, that's obviously my, my ultimate goal. Um, you know, there there's a lot of players like I was at um, let's see, I was at one of the galas for trump's inauguration and uh, dog with hat I don't know if you know who he is uh, it's a meme coin. It's I think it's like the 10th largest meme coin. He was there and they were. They were trading meme coins, and so this is where the idea was birthed.
Speaker 1:Uh was actually sitting down talking with some of those guys and I mean I watched him he's a christian. I watched him, you know, pull half a million dollars out in 50 minutes of playing coins. And he wasn't rug pulling, he was just in some of the major ones at the time. I actually think it was XRP that he was playing, and so there's a lot of risk that is involved in mean coins. But if you're optimistic, all mill, or if you're post mill, this is right up your alley of getting involved in and doing these things, and we've been completely transparent. We've been honest. You can go look at the blog post that I posted on my 1689 Cigars website and you can see that there's been completely transparency. And if anybody were to get fooled and to think we were literally saying that 1689 coin is better than Bitcoin, I would say you're kind of foolish and you are a boomer at that point. You know that is what that is.
Speaker 3:So well, that's encouraging.
Speaker 2:Uh, we very quickly can I interject here because ryan does any do either. You guys know a ryan tames I do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, ryan was the ryan who I shouted out earlier.
Speaker 2:Okay so he's been asking a question in the chat maybe we can get an answer to this is where does that? Well, he's basically saying if I want to invest $100,000 into 1689 coin right now, where does the liquidity come from? Who's going to give me that? And people said, well, you know, it's sitting at 350,000, 375,000 market cap. And he's saying, no, you're not answering my question, so maybe I'm not seeing it right. But he's saying you're not understanding. I couldn't actually put in $100,000 right now. I would drain the LP. Now. I'm not a meme coin guy or crypto expert. What's that argument? What's that point he's trying to make? Either Chance or Jordan. What's he saying there?
Speaker 1:So the liquidity, I think, is at like $42,000. So there's actually like $42,000 liquidity in there. So if you put in 100,000, what he would do is basically lock up the coin. So if anybody were to put over $41,000, the coin would get stalled out. It would lock up, the whole amount of the coin would be held and then nobody could really buy in to see a growth. So that is a risk of the coin. So what you want is as many different holders of the wallet as the coin goes up. You want many different holders in at like a hundred bucks, 200 bucks, 300 bucks, and that's what builds the liquidity. I could be wrong, but, jordan, you can jump in and say that.
Speaker 3:No, and I think that's his. I think that's kind of the point that he's getting at is like there's, there's ways in which, even with you guys having the best of intentions, this can go horribly wrong. I think that's kind of his point. So again, I've seen the discussion of the risk of you could lose your money, and a lot of that discussion seems to be oriented around hey listen, we're holding for the long term, we're not going to do this, we're not going to rug. But again, that only covers part of the risk because there's still, you know, even if you guys don't do anything, don't don't sell anything, there can still be a rug. You know that happens. And so, again, that's that's kind of where you know what Ryan is pointing out and I think it kind of what?
Speaker 3:Again, I just, yeah, my question is do even the people who are I just want people to understand and have eyes open going into this thing? That's part of it, the other side of things, I mean I'll just reference a couple of the other things that were mentioned in some of the social media posts. So one of the things that it was anyone who is not a fan of 60 to 89 coin, which would definitely include me.
Speaker 1:I couldn't tell Anyone who is not a fan of 60 to 89 coin, which I, which would definitely include me.
Speaker 3:They are called, yeah, they are called. Well, I just met from you guys would think of me this way. They're called haters. Okay, now again, obviously meme. You know it's meme, shorthand haters.
Speaker 1:I could definitely tell you're Presbyterian bro. You're very uptight.
Speaker 3:So, my point is there is, is there, is there a reason? Like aren't there good reasons to hate things? And the answer is, well, yeah, we're told we're called to hate what's evil, like there are things that we're ought to hate. So the fact that, like, do you chalk up I know you don't, because you already you've already said it as much on this like you don't think that anybody who's pushing back and resisting that your project is the greatest thing since sliced bread? You're not just equating anybody who says that as if they're just haters, right?
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't run that account.
Speaker 3:Sure, sure, no, but I just mean the project, like the 16. You wouldn't say that anybody who is pushing back on it is a hater.
Speaker 1:Do you spend any time on like Gen Z social?
Speaker 3:media.
Speaker 1:So I mean, you're seeing a meme coin, do what a meme coin does. And so like if that's your argument, it's silly because it's a meme coin and there's really no argument there.
Speaker 3:Sure, Okay, good, because it's a meme coin and there's really no argument there. Sure, Okay, good. I mean, again, there's people who don't don't know these things. Um, again, I think the other thing that I would want to acknowledge okay, I would be remiss without mentioning uh is what the Proverbs say about the desire to gain wealth quickly, right, so there's Proverbs 13, 11 wealth, wealth gained hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it.
Speaker 3:Now, again, to your credit, you just said hey, we don't want to build this project super quickly, we don't want people just to dump in $100,000.
Speaker 3:We want to build small so that we avoid some of the potential for rugging. So, hey, good on you there, that's great. But again, I think that there's again I would, I would forgive somebody who, based on some of these posts where, you know, talking about hey, we're quickly, we're already at 300,000. We're already at a 500,000 market cap, we're already, you know, whatever, we're almost, we're halfway to a million, Like there seems to be a lot of emphasis being put on getting to some arbitrary point in the future where this coin is worth something in order to be able to pull money out of it, and so, again, it's conflicting messaging, I think, to say hey, we don't want this thing to be built quickly and yet be emphasizing even if this isn't you, so this isn't aimed at you, but whoever is in charge of the 1689 account for that to be a predominant part of the messaging is emphasizing how quickly and how big that the project is growing.
Speaker 2:Really quick. Can I just jump in on that proverb too, because I get man after five years of doing a podcast. My audience is probably tired of me hearing me rag on people who use proverbs as like promises. They are warnings, right, and that proverb in particular is making the capitalistic free market association that money is your time, is your labor and if it's off balance, if you don't understand what your time is worth and what your money is worth, well, then you'll probably spend it unwisely.
Speaker 2:It's more of a warning against how you use and steward your money. If you gain something quickly, then money is cheap. Your time is cheap. Time is actually valuable. It's the most limited resource we have, right?
Speaker 2:So it's like this weird thing too, where, pete, you know, I grew up where it was like you cannot borrow money, the borrower is slave to the lender, and it's like, well, no, probably just giving you a warning. It doesn't say do not gain money quickly, do not go out and borrow money. No, it says just be warned. If you have responsibilities, if you borrow money, just be warned. You will view money and your labor differently If it's out of balance on how much time it took to acquire that money. Right, we always take care of the bike. That was that we bought ourselves than the one we got for Christmas. That's the principle. The proverb is is trying to say there I would, I would argue in chances defense a little bit, a little bit that I don't think I've seen, that I haven't seen. Hey, we're going to try to get rich quick. But I understand where you're coming from as well too. And let me tell you the funny thing is, is I remember talking to you, jordan, five years?
Speaker 3:ago, People said the same thing about Bitcoin and everything you're saying right now.
Speaker 2:We were talking about Bitcoin, christians were like oh, and I'm not comparing Bitcoin to the meme coin. About bitcoin, christians were like, oh, and I'm not comparing bitcoin to the mean coin. Two different things. Blockchain right, there's a finite amount. I get all that. I'm just saying, uh, it's a little ironic. Five years later now I'm going oh, this is hilarious, because I was on the bitcoin train early on. I go yeah, let's do it. Let's, let's be able to get missionaries out of their country with a, with a, with a, with a code in their pocket and have liquidity in their pocket so they can come to America or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 2:I remember that example you were given. That's why I brought that up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, I just thought, here's what I would say. Yeah, that that totally makes sense.
Speaker 1:You can do that with a Rolex too, oh okay, you can do that with a Rolex as well.
Speaker 2:Let's go back to the barter system. Is what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:boys.
Speaker 3:So what I would say? Yes. And so again, the point you're getting at is that misuse does not negate proper use, right? So again, the fact that humanity was corrupted isn't an isn't an indictment of God, right? Like the fact that people can be a good, that something that's good can be corrupted, like that doesn't, that doesn't put any. We don't lay any blame at the feet of God for the fact that people got, people fell into sin, like right, we have culpability, um, again, at the same time. So again, maybe I'll just use a different one. So, first Timothy, six, nine, right, uh for.
Speaker 3:But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. And so, again, even if you're going like, even if you're going in with with eyes wide open I mean just the question that the thing that I would want people to question because I've had to question my own heart multiple times, being in this industry and all this kind of stuff is, again, there's nothing, there's no problem with having resources, okay, the only person who Jesus tells that he needs to sell everything is the guy who thought he had already kept the entire law. And so Jesus does it in order to help him see that he does. He hasn't actually kept the entire law, but this, if you're desiring to be rich, okay, like that desire. I would just be wanting to question, like, just be willing to question, where is that desire coming from? And again, I'm not above having to question that.
Speaker 3:I'm not saying this is a unique problem to 1689 coin or the people who are involved in it, but again, within the broader altcoin, meme coin world, the desire to get rich quickly is the predominant desire, the predominant motivating factor for people who are getting into it, because if it wasn't their desire, there's a whole bunch of other ways. There's no need to put it on a blockchain. You can do all kinds of interesting community building and all kinds of other things you could do. Gift cards that are providing the same. We're going to give a discount if you pay in 1689 gift cards. All of these things provide the same utility that is being described, without needing to put all of your capital at risk in the way that is the case, again, not because Chase is a bad person, but because any random awful person can hop in there and suck out all the liquidity.
Speaker 1:He's doing it, Greg. What's that? He's doing? What you did the first podcast we were on.
Speaker 2:He's doing what?
Speaker 1:Call me Chase. Oh gosh, I'm so sorry, Chase.
Speaker 3:I'm so sorry, dude.
Speaker 2:I called Chance Chase for a whole podcast.
Speaker 3:Oh gosh In my defense.
Speaker 2:I had a 20 milligram dort in my mouth that he gave me a prototype, so it's flying pretty high.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean that's the other thing is, again, like I met Chance to not Chase I don't know who Chase is. I met Chance a few years ago at one of the, I think, fight Laugh Feast conferences and again Chance has a body armor company. He's got some of these other companies and again, we need Christians building good companies and so I think that's incredibly valuable and I am interested in potentially purchasing one of his body armor at some point.
Speaker 2:And so again, part of this you have to do it with 1689 coin though.
Speaker 1:I wasn't going to wear this tonight, but I was just too hot.
Speaker 3:So I think that's another part of me.
Speaker 3:Again, this is I'm not coming at this as some giant hater who just wants chase to chance to be miserable and his businesses to all fail, like, because the reality is, if this thing falls apart and gets rugged, it's necessarily going to impact like chances, reputation and so like that.
Speaker 3:That's part of this. And so, again, with all of these things almost all of these things rug and so that's and I don't I've not been presented with a case for this not rugging, for the end game of this to not be a rug at some point, because if it succeeds and it goes to a 10 million market cap now there's a bigger target on its back, there's more people looking at it as an easy way to make money, and if it doesn't, then the liquidity is locked up there and it's not able to get out. So, again, that's where this is coming from. I think that, yeah, I just think there's especially I mean, there's just so many things to do as Christians and I think there's just so many more things that would be that could be done and to be a worthier and less risky and, you know, better use of time, attention and resources.
Speaker 2:But Okay, chance, do you want to respond to that, or do you want me to give final words here, since we're about up on an hour?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, as always, don't buy 1689 coin. That's how I'll end.
Speaker 3:Wait we ended in agreement. It's incredible.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So yeah, Jordan, did you have anything you wanted to say? It sounded like you were kind of summing up your thoughts there a minute ago, but as we get out of here, I'll give you a couple minutes, I mean again in the interest of practicing what I preach and not shilling my own stuff again.
Speaker 3:If this is a topic that's interesting to you, okay, there is a book that I would recommend Gary North's Honest Money. He would be positively mortified to hear a Bitcoin advocate, uh, in a recommending one of his books, so maybe that's all the more reason to recommend it. Uh, somebody asked me we actually sent him a review copy of thank God for Bitcoin. When we wrote it and asked him if you would write a, write a forward to it, he said I would never. You people are scammers. And then, when he went to be with the lord about a year ago, somebody asked you know people of uh in in hindsight, when I've mentioned his role in the writing of the of our book, they've asked was was gary north a bitcoin advocate? And I looked at them with a wry smile and said he is now right so I would, I would recommend I'd recommend that book.
Speaker 3:If you are a, if you're a christian leadership, I would recommend, uh, basically, the grown-up version of that book, which is called the Ethics of Money Production, by an Austrian economist named Jorg Guido Holzman, which kind of gets at this bigger question of you know what are the ethics of creating money? Obviously, we know that what we do with money in terms of if we you know, purchase, you know, if we, whatever we do, if we were to knowingly steal from somebody or to you know, use money to purchase a prostitute or something like this, we know that there's moral implications of that. What is far less discussed and far less understood is the fact that the creation of money itself has ethical principles that govern it and scriptural principles that govern it, and so that book really in large part flushes out those ideas. So we're just highly encouraged, in the interest of the body of Christ being as equipped as possible and seeing the world in the way that God does, I would just highly recommend either of those two books.
Speaker 2:And Chance. What do you got for us as we sign off?
Speaker 1:I think Josiah Stowe from Dominion Wealth Strategies needs to be on one of these in the next, whenever you want to have us back on to be a part of the financial advisor, to go against the Bitcoin a little bit with stocks and future investments and things of that nature. So I would say that, but then also, I mean, at the end of the day, we're building a project. This is what we're doing. There's always a risk there.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's a risk associated with the tens of thousands of cigars I have in the amateurs behind me and so there's always risk and with my optimistic view of the you know the coming of christ, I think digital currency, cryptocurrency, is the future. Um, I don't think it's bitcoin. Um, I think the there's going to be a coin that comes out that's going to be better than bitcoin. I think bitcoin has kind of showed us the error of of what can happen. I do think there is just as much risk of when the 21 million coins are mined, the 92% of the people who own Bitcoin rug everybody. So I do see the same kind of potential volatility, but to be lost in a lot more.
Speaker 3:And obviously you can respond to that, jordan, but yeah, I feel like it would be helpful to that. So again, this figure has been repeated numerous times oh, that 2% of the wallets own 90 some. What that is is there's exchanges, there's exchanges that have a lot of Bitcoin within them, so on chain, they look like it's just two wallets, when in reality that's not the case. And so, again, the other point is that, even with that Bitcoin, it was not created for everyone to be able just to give away the control of the keys of their Bitcoin. And so, again, all of the people who are in the industry that we as well like, our constant refrain to people is get your coins underneath your control as soon as you're able to do so, because then you're fixing the incentive structure and you're removing the ability to be rugged. So, again, this is not-.
Speaker 1:That's the same response you could say with 1689 coin, correct?
Speaker 3:I mean, but again, so then we introduced. So, even if you said yes, okay, so you can pull them off, you're still on whatever wallet you're on. Again, do you have private keys to 1689 coin?
Speaker 1:What do you mean?
Speaker 3:Do you have, do you have private keys to 1689 coin? What do you mean? Do you have? You actually have like private keys? Can you withdraw to a private wallet that's not on Moonshot or whatever?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so most of our guys use Phantom or Cake or Metamask, so yeah, I mean so-.
Speaker 3:Again in that case. So then that wouldn't be the differentiator. The differentiator would be, again, you still have. So, again, there's multiple layers of this. You still have one person who controls the entire supply. Like, chance, if you wanted to, you could double the supply. You know, if, for some reason, let's say, here's, here's what could happen. Let's say you had, um, the wolf of the wolf, of what is it? What's the wolf of all street? What's his name? Like, he's like a big crypto trader.
Speaker 3:Basically, if one of these crypto traders, if chance, somehow entered into an agreement, sure, well, yeah, that's, he's like a big crypto trader, basically. If one of these crypto traders, if Chance, somehow entered into an agreement, sure, well, yeah, he's an example. But, like, if you had some of these big, like, what would you do? Here's a question what would you do, chance, if one of these other big, humongous, like whale-sized crypto traders wanted to buy, wanted to buy an interest in 1689 coin, wanted to just an interest in in 1689 coin? Wanted to just basically say, hey, we'll partner with you, we'll help you pump this to the moon. Like you know, you just have got done laying out the fact you don't want to grow this like that. But, like you know, if somebody came to you I mean you you would have. My point is even if you wouldn't, even if people think you wouldn't do that, you still would have the ability to do it.
Speaker 1:I mean so that I have the ability to go, you know, sleep with a prostitute, but it doesn't mean I'm going to do it. I mean so. To have hypothetical arguments is not to prove a point, it's just hypothetical arguments.
Speaker 3:Again, this is differentiating, though with Bitcoin is my point where I don't have to trust anybody with my currency, with my money, with whatever I can withdraw it and have it to the place where even the supply itself, even if not the exact ones that I own, you know, chance like you could still double, triple the supply of the units, and that's not possible with Bitcoin. So that those, you know those, those differences matter a lot. Uh, because the in the incentive structures matter a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm not disagreeing, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't think we were. I don't think this uh live stream is going to be. You know, uh 1689 coin is the same as bitcoin.
Speaker 2:Right, we know they're two totally different things good, I think we nailed down on some really good points too, of just saying, well, there's, there's risk involved. Um, the general and I would in in uh chance. You can agree or disagree with this, but I would say in my uh, in my, the majority, the vast majority of these meme coins are pump and dumps are get rich quick. So I understand that Now you may be the lone fish with a few fish behind you going up against that stream, but Jordan's point well, taken as well too, like Christian beware, like this sector is rife of thieves and cheaters and scoundrels.
Speaker 2:Right, and I understand what you're saying to a chance is like well, you know, let's get in there and change it and redeem it for the glory of God as well, cause that's the project I'm. I'm working on my. My personal thoughts aren't too important, but I also go. I would love to see whether it be Bitcoin or 1689 or XPR or or some. Uh, and both your faces just went weird when I said XPR, I don't know my brother's- high on XPR.
Speaker 3:I would rather 1689 coins succeed than XRP, but sure.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying I would love to see Christians have a majority stake in some type of financial institution for once. I mean, we gave it to the pagans 150 years ago, never looked back and just said, yeah, loan us money and make all the decisions and have all the control. I'm not saying 1689 coin is going to do that, but I'm saying I understand where chance is coming from on that and wanting to do that as well too. And I understand, jordan, I understand your point too. Going, yeah, a lot of risk. Well, yeah, my point would just be.
Speaker 3:if that's the goal, right. If that's the goal, I mean the thing that today we already have nation states trying to buy. We already have some of the largest companies on earth buying is Bitcoin, and so, if that's the goal, if the goal is basically to get again to sustainably with, even though there is no such thing as risk-free, we should not even want that. God created a world where we have to trust him. We have to. I mean, at any time, I'm trusting that my house isn't going to fall on my head, like all of these things. We're not trying to avoid risk but, again, calculated risk. This is what stewardship is. It's calculated risk, and so I just think, if that's the goal goal and we're trying to, we're trying to remove the downfalls and the shortcomings of the fiat system okay, which is dependent on trust, which is dependent on all these things then the only thing that actually does that in meaningful ways is Bitcoin. Again, it's not going to make you. It's in the short term. It's not necessarily going to make you rich quickly. There are people who get in for that reason and I can give you a whole list of them who have gotten absolutely rugged, and so I have a buddy who took out a loan to buy Bitcoin. He's not a believer. He took out a loan to buy Bitcoin at 69, 67 K and had to pay that loan all the way down to $17,000. So if that, if your motivation to do any of these things is to get rich quickly, you're doing it wrong.
Speaker 3:Your goal should just be in the point of money is not to be able to, it's not to get you rich, it's to preserve the value of work that you've done. That is why and to basically serve your neighbor by having something a third thing that can be traded in between in exchange for the needs that two people have. And so this is why money is created. Bitcoin does this well. Bitcoin is still immature. I think this is also a really important point. The framework that people use to think about Bitcoin matters. Bitcoin is 16 years old. It just got its driver's license. It still is very volatile relative to other things, but again, that's how we're watching in real time. A free market money happen, no one makes people use Bitcoin.
Speaker 3:This is all a free market thing that's happening. No one has been forced to buy Bitcoin. It's all been voluntary, and so, again, volatility is the price of freedom. That's just how the real world works.
Speaker 2:All right fellows. Well, thank you both for spending time with us uh, on the live stream. Appreciate both of you guys. Thanks, greg, thanks chance.
Speaker 1:Yep, thanks brother.
Speaker 2:Cool guys. Thanks for listening to another episode of Devin walking podcast. This one was a live stream, as always. You can find out more about us at dmwpodcastcom. Go support the show. Um, you know you can get one of these wine. Um d Support the show. You know you can get one of these Wine Em Dine Em Romans, nine Em mugs at the merch store. We've got some snarky shirts on there. Of course, we have the new Job 13.5. How about you shut up and let that be your wisdom? Sometimes you just got to quote scriptures to the pagans, even if they don't like it. But, guys, we appreciate your support. We appreciate you watching. Thanks for commenting, remember.