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Sourcing School by RecruitingDaily
Beyond A Traditional CRM with Craig Fisher of TalentNet Media
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Get ready to grasp the future of recruitment and more as we bring you captivating insights straight from the action. Be part of our conversation with Craig Fisher, CEO of TalentNet Media, as we dissect recruitment marketing and question the efficiency of CRM systems in the recruitment landscape. We delve into the intriguing concept of tokenizing identity to track online activity, shaking up traditional CRM methods.
Stay tuned as we share our firsthand experiences and the wisdom gained from these exhilarating events, and join us in exploring the fascinating world of HR tech and the future of recruitment marketing!
Special mini series recorded with Oleeo at HR Tech 2023 with hosts Ryan Leary, Brian Fink, and Shally Steckerl.
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Hey everybody, welcome back to the Sourcing School podcast brought to you by Olio. We are here live at HRTech. I am joined by my co-host, ryan Leary my ride or die, and we have also got Shelly Stekrel in the house. And then, finally, we are joined by Craig Fisher, the CEO of TalentNet Media and newly minted bestselling author of Hiring Humans. Mr Fisher, what's going on, my friend?
Speaker 2Ryan, it's really good to see you. I think I've seen you every five minutes for the last. Feels like you're in a half.
Speaker 1I was going to say, like we've been together a lot. It's been like every five weeks. I agree with that. I didn't think about that. Now we're just coming back from Rackfest. We're both wearing our pink shirts here on Wednesday. Because we wear pink on Wednesday, Shout out to anybody who got the reference to Mean Girls.
Speaker 4I did not get that reference you have three daughters.
Speaker 1How did you not get the reference to the movie Mean Girls? I've seen it. I didn't get the reference.
Speaker 4Okay, all right.
Speaker 2I think my wife puts Mean Girls on about once a quarter. I watch it a lot.
Speaker 1I'm the cool mom. Yeah, I'm the cool mom, all right. So, craig, there's so many different places to get this conversation started with here. I know that, like I introduced you and said, we've got the book, we've got the leadership, we've got what you're doing in advisory capacities to different companies. Let me start by just asking a simple question what's the vibe here at HR Tech in Vegas?
Speaker 2So there's a lot more activity this year than there was last year. I think last year was a little bit stale, a little bit slow. I think vendors are energized this year. I think they feel like the traffic's good, there's more staff in the booth, there's more staff in the booth and it's more fun. I mean it's pretty good.
Speaker 1So what you're seeing? You're seeing a lot of vendors, but are you seeing a lot of practitioners?
Speaker 2as well. I'm seeing buyers. Yes, I've been introduced to several what we call practitioners and vendors, called buyers, and isn't it sad that that's what we boil this down to? But that's what it is People who can make decisions about HR technology. And, yeah, I've met a lot of them.
Speaker 1So we've talked ad nauseam about generative AI today. That's been a hot topic. What topics are you seeing permeate to the surface here at HR Tech besides generative AI Right?
Speaker 2So one of the things that I'm pretty hot on is my theory that CRMs are running low on usability, and I'm not a huge CRM fan. For the recruiting space, I think that there are services and platforms that can do some of that stuff, but putting a CRM seat in the hands of every recruiter is just not going to be a thing of any.
Speaker 1Okay, so Ryan Lear is shaking his head. Ryan, why do you feel that way? I don't think it was ever really a thing.
Speaker 4It was forced. Yeah, it was thought that it needed to be, but I don't ever think that's because the ATSs don't have the capability, so you have to have something.
Speaker 3Yeah, they have something. Yeah, not saying you have to be a recruiter.
Speaker 4That's like putting recruitment, branding or marketing in the hands of a recruiter. Or even I just gave Ryan a look.
Speaker 4I just gave Ryan a look for those of you who are not watching the podcast or even yeah, like this one always killed me where, when I was sitting at a desk, we were responsible for submitting diverse slates. That's not my job as a recruiter. My job as a recruiter is to give you the best person. Now, given that long ago it was very visual, yeah Right, so you were making those decisions based on what you saw. You didn't have the technology to filter that out for you. That has to come from top down.
Speaker 2Well, so, Shaly and I agree on this as well as what you just said that marketing is the opposite side of the coin from sourcing Right.
Speaker 3Yep Sourcing is active. Sourcing is cool.
Speaker 2Marketing is passive, but there's a lot of money badly spent in recruitment marketing. I think that the data that comes from recruitment marketing vendors is crap. I think very few companies still can actually identify their source of hire.
Speaker 3Oh, they definitely can identify it, it's linked in.
Speaker 2Yeah, Everybody's linked in right.
Speaker 3Or indeed.
Speaker 2Yeah, and in volume society, where I do a lot of work with big, massive employers, I see things that are light tech that are easily able to connect and integrate with an ATS now, and so a contact center like Pivot CX or something like that can be the glue between multiple other things and even for an RPO, connect to all your customers ATS systems and have a good way to contact people without a full blown $500,000 CRM.
Speaker 3You know what. So CRMs are just copies of the data and I've always maintained that that's an absolute waste of time. So way back in the beginning you know staffing firm days people wanted to. They wanted to download. One of the first questions that I got as a consultant Can I?
Speaker 2download all the data.
Speaker 3Can I download the data? I'm like you want to download the internet. Why you want to copy. You don't really need a CRM for that. What you need is a way to tag someone in a tokenized fashion that allows that identity to be multi-use. That's really what you need. You don't need a CRM. You need a way to say this is Brian Fink and identifies you know you as Brian Fink, and then it tracks all the things that you are online. You don't need a CRM to have a copy of the name Brian Fink and every email that you've ever sent and all that stuff.
Speaker 2Or a Google Sheet.
Speaker 3Yeah, so that's always just been a complete fallacy. You're not really. You're essentially boiling the ocean. You're trying to duplicate the internet, so what you need is a system that keeps track of that interaction.
Speaker 2So is there something like an eightfold say that says okay, brian Fink came into an organization five years ago and at this point in his career we assume he's had this much training in these types of things. His job has taken him to do these types of things.
Speaker 3He's probably got skills that can do other things in the organization.
Speaker 2An eightfold. I mean they sell this right as a thing. I think maybe it works a little bit. I think Seekout does a pretty good job of some of that stuff as well. But you know, is sort of this the next iteration of hiring, because you're tapping your internal database first, if you can.
Speaker 1If you can tap your internal database, it's relevant. It's relevant, yeah.
Speaker 3Here's the problem that I ran into, a very real problem. I had a VP that is very strategic more strategic than any of the other VPs that I've worked with at this organization and he asked the question what does our internal tenant look for for this particular job title?
Speaker 3You know a very specific job title, down to the level right, like a software engineer, senior software engineer two. You know very but what are the keywords? Very specific? Well, he wanted to know internally what the you know. So you can't go externally and look for that, because none of the people that are in that category use that job title externally. I know exactly who they were because in the HRIS system their job title and their level is senior software engineer two. So I made a list there's 35 of them specifically at that level right, and I went and tried to find their background information so that I could create profiles for them, so that I could aggregate the profile so I can go back to them with an answer as to what the typical software engineer two's profile looks like. Right, I only found 17 of them. Oh, this is the story you were telling at dinner the other night. I only found 17 of them, so that what you just described would fail.
Speaker 2Yeah, and I agree with you Does it not on LinkedIn. Well, okay, and I had this conversation on a podcast that I did a live stream with last week. I think and I keep hearing this that we're in sort of an AI bubble, and I know we're trying not to just talk about generative AI, but we're about to be in a workforce data explosion of actual useful analytics, because what AI is good at is summarizing Right, and so that data that you're looking for and the data that the employer would be looking for.
Speaker 2They could take all the historical data that we've got that we don't really do shit with because workforce planning is nonsense and actually have something useful yeah.
Speaker 3The problem with that, Craig, is going to be most of us like the creativity to ideate what the question is that we want to ask.
Speaker 2Yes, well, and the other problem with that is, as you know, as we all know, there's turnover within talent acquisition and HR teams on a regular basis, and so these projects that get started, some of them, maybe someone has a good idea.
Speaker 3And then they leave Six months it's gone.
Speaker 1Yeah, ryan, you're nodding over there. What's your takeaway from this?
Speaker 4I'm just taking it in. I'm just taking it in. I think, craig, you said something that I fully agree with is that we're on the verge of a data explosion Meaningful Meaningful and I think that has been probably top of mind on the topic of debate over the last umpteen years everybody talking about data analytics and data this and data that and all this other stuff, and I think now we're going to see something fruitful out of this and it's interesting.
Speaker 2I think the two most useful KPIs for any organization that have historically been mostly hot air are sales forecasting and workforce planning. Now we know about sales forecasting. Okay, I've got this much in the proper.
Speaker 3And.
Speaker 2I've got this much build and so we kind of think that in the next quarter we might sell X and that doesn't work.
Speaker 3We know we can close three out of 10 calls we make. We got 20 calls scheduled.
Speaker 2We know we're going to close six deals, yeah supposedly, supposedly, right, but now I think and I think this group agrees that that data is going to be way more accurate, way more actionable, and I mean I'm excited for the future. And still, somebody has to use the tools.
Speaker 1Yeah, why Slight chambers and chainsaws don't work on themselves? I'm sitting here and I'm trying to figure out the recruiters that just hit LinkedIn all day long. How are they going to use this data, or are they just?
Speaker 3gonna. They're not, you know? No, they're not, you need another job. Yeah, it's a different position, it's a whole different position. It's another job, it's a specialized job.
Speaker 4When I look at it from the sales side, like you're saying, now, what I'm envisioning is the AI going in and saying here's just not your funnel, your pipe and all that stuff. It's based on your conversations. Here's what we're really expecting. Here's all your messages. Here's how many times you communicate. Here's what you said. Here's how they responded. Now it's going to be able to give you an informed decision and say you can truly expect not six deals to close, two deals to close. So, based on that, the honet model.
Speaker 2Exactly the honet model. Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2All right, I think that's an ender.
Speaker 1All right, so we're bringing it down. Put a lid on it. Okay, put a lid on it. Before I put a lid on it, I do want to give Craig a shout out. Craig, you have an awesome event that is coming up in Dallas on November 9th. Do you want to tell anybody about Talent NET Live?
Speaker 2Yes, the Talent NET Live conference. You can find out about it at talentnetlivecom. It is one of the. I will just-.
Speaker 1You're biased, let me say I'm completely unbiased opinion. It's one of the better conferences that are out there.
Speaker 2Yeah, the content is actionable.
Speaker 3It is definitely the best live talent conference in Dallas.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's definitely that. It's an intimate affair.
Speakers Event and HR Tech Conference
Speaker 1It's really good. Like Craig, I'm going to grab the mic from you. It's a close-knit group. There are going to be about 300 people that are going to be there. You're going to have the opportunity to go hands-on, to go deep with sourcing technology. You're going to have conversations with individuals which are going to move you. There's going to be really good networking. There's going to be really good presentations, presentations that are going to be brought by some of the industry's very best. They're going to start and kick off the conversation and get you thinking, and I think that that is the biggest takeaway from this event is? It always makes me think, Craig, what do you want to say about your?
Speaker 2event. William Tin Cup calls it a speakers event because all of our favorite people and you got to get Shaly there next come and share their newest stuff and try it out at Talent NET before they go on the road with it for the next year and so all the stuff that we've learned as analysts and operators and consultants, we were sharing in a group of our peers at that time and the audience is part of it, and so we're all peers in this group.
Speaker 2You might be sitting next to a vendor or a talent leader or a CEO, and that's how the audience is, and, yes, we're biased Right. We're practitioner and we'll be giving away some signed copies of my book Hiring Humans when you can find out more about that at hiring-.
Speaker 4I heard he's gonna have a killer podcast down there. You know these websites they're very obscure.
Speaker 3The book is called Hiring Humans and the website's Hiring Humans. I don't get it.
Speaker 1Yeah, I should have bought the domain for the TalkTekToMecom.
Speaker 2I'm an SEO guy. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1So we're gonna wrap this up. It is day one. We have come to the thrilling conclusion of HR Tech. Want to thank the team at Olio for making sure that we had a great day here. You have a great day too.
